In Conversation with Prof. Robert Frost: The Polish Lithuanian Union
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
- Part 2/6 Like England and Scotland, Poland and Lithuania were once in a political union. This week's podcast is part of the series taken from an interview with Prof. Robert Frost of the University of Aberdeen and considers the making of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and what affected this relationship.
Social Media Links:
Twitter: @ELREC_Routes
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Funder's Links:
Sponsor Web: www.hlf.org.uk
Sponsor Social Media: @HLFScotland
Special Thanks:
Heritage Lottery Fund
Prof. Robert Frost
The University of Aberdeen
The University of Aberdeen Library Special Collections, in particular, Michelle Gait
Thomas Sutcliffe - Interviewer
Chris Morris - Video and Audio Recording, Video Editing
Neil Ogilvy - Video Recording
Being from Lithuania I love when someone from outside my country or Poland (until this day imagining union as 'Poland' alone) provides their insights and unbiased analysis.
hello from poland nicely neighbor:) i think there are very few ppl in poland that imagine union as "poland" alone, and the reason may be poor education. we refer to the polish-lithuanian union as the "rzeczpospolita" what means "common thing" loosly translated or just the republic. have a nice day!
@@Xaverious23 The English word for it is Commonwealth.
@@Xaverious23
In Lithuania we sometimes use "Žečpospolita" too, but it is most commonly known as Republic of Two Nations (Abiejų Tautų Respublika)
@@eruno_ i didnt knew that. Zecpospolita. thank you:) i will remember it.
@@eruno_ In Poland we call it the same way. "Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów" which literally means "The Republic of the Both Nations"
Thank You for this beautiful lecture🇵🇱 🇱🇹
Thank you for your deep insight of Lithuania history
Excellent video
Excellent explanation. Thx mate for posting it.
fantastic, I very much enjoyed this.
Fantastic interview. Cheers!
The battles in comment section are worthy of great battle of Zalgiris!:D
7:50 some of those in Poland who are interested in history call that land transfer "a shitty gift by Sigmund II", as in later years, the fact that those lands were incorporated into Poland lead to multiple problems including Chmielnicki uprising which was one of the key events that broke Commonwealth's power in mid 17th century
"A shitty gift by Sigmund II" - Brilliant remark, I'll remember it.
Excellent video. Thak you very much!
Frost obviously speaks polish well.
Aciu. Dekui. Labai issamus , konkretus paaiskinimas.
Great thanx 4 the infos
amazing, thank you
The history of Lithuania isn't unique in the sense of relations between invaders and invaded population. The lower developed pagan Franks invaded Gauls. The people of Gaul assimilated them and we have France. Very similar cases were with the invasion of Normans into France or North Italy and later into England. A big part of Lithuanians adopted Slavic languages another part in Prussia - German. In the Middle Ages Slavic languages: Old Russian, Ukrainian, Polish were very close to each other and if you knew one of them you could easily communicate throughout all those Slavic areas. Lithuanian language, as well as German, were not understandable for Slavic people.
Please, Poles were not invaders. Lithuanians wanted to get rid of invaders so they created the union with Poles.
Slavic people must sit in Siberia. Whole Europe for Balts!!!
@@amonekymon That's not what he's referring to. He's talking about Lithuania expanding into Grand Duchy of Lithuania into lands of east Slavs.
@@tiptop3922 Rude
I am curious why would you write In Medieval times Polish was similar to Ukrainian and Old Russian. First, Ukrainian did not exist at that time. Second, Polish belongs to Western Slavic group while modern Russian and Ukrainian belong to Eastern group. Third, the closest cousins to Polish are Slovakian and Czech, both Western Slavic languages. Fourth, Polish developed in Medieval times under the influence of Czech to the extent that Czech became for awhile an official language at the court of Polish kings in Cracow. Polish hymn Bogurodzica is written in a version of Czech rather then in pure Polish. Given all that I have serious doubts about your assertion of close proximity of three languages you mention.
Very good overview.
The Romanians also joined the fight against the Teutons. By Romanians I mean the Principality of Moldavia.
some sources point out, that even some Tatars were present during Tannenberg/Grunwald...
when talking about forces: Teutonic Order had it's own army + volenteers/mercenaries from Western Europe, mainly from Germany (Holy Roman Empire at that time)
PLC had Polish, Lithuanian, Rus, Czech (mercenaries), Romanians, Tatars from Crimea (muslims!) units and probably a bunch of smallers ones also...
It was a battle between probably the best army of that time (Teutons) vs a conglomerate of different types of forces and nations.
@@sytrostormlord3275 To those days oneast live polish tatars. In those historical days there was a law signed by king that all confessions are equal.Persecuted believers of various faiths fled to this place- Jews, Karaites, Armenians, Tatars, Mennoites, antitrinitarian groups, Czech Brethren, Huguenots, Old Believers, Moravian Brethren,
EDIT. Poska alone would not have made it- that should be the anwser
Not Lithuanian but the Rusyn language was the official language of the GDL. Lithuanians didn't develop written language until middle of the XVI century(?). Rusyn language was and still is one of the closest languages to the Polish language.
The oldest surviving text in Lithuanian is from 1503. It's a write-off from an older text(the problem is we don't know if that older text was in a different language or Lithuanian).
@Augustas Zaleskis pagooglink "Seniausias lietuviškas tekstas" arba "Tractatus sacerdotalis". Religinio tekstuko vertimas. Abiem tais paieškų raktažodžiais rasi įvairių skirtingų puslapių su nuotraukom, paryškintu tekstu, nuorašais, kiek yra informacijos ir pan. O jeigu nori pažiūrėt į patį autentišką lapą, koks jis yra išlikęs pagooglink "Oldest surviving writing in Lithuanian language" pirmi rezultatai turėtų būti autentiško šaltinio nuotraukos prisegtos prie vikipedijos strapsinių.
so what? pagan lithuanian kings and dukes were illiterates but conquered and ruled the rutenians and there several "official" languages
Well, they were literate in other languages that had been codified. Which was fairly common for the time. Language was not tied to identity back then(that's quite a modern concept). Hence Poland using Latin as official before Polish, Georgia using Armenian before Georgian, Korea using Chinese before Korean. Even though all those languages existed.
@@copy2886 See comment next to this one (didn't @). Also "conquered and ruled Ruthenians" is a big generalization. It seems more like a union. The only invasion I'm aware of was a Lithuanian duke attacking Polotsk, getting aid of Teutons and conquering it. But then later marrying off to a noblewoman from the city to solidify power there, as he was likely under threat of losing it. That's when dynasties of Lithuanians and Belarusians started mixing when it came to grand dukes, it seems. Belarusians(or what later became known as Belarusians) were really influential and important as well.
I agree with everything except that-The Grand Duchy of Lithuania wasn't being beat by the Teutonic Order and Teutons didn't really push into Lithuania that much to an extent that Lithuania wouldn't last alone. As there are many many battles won by the Duchy against the Teutons. The main factor was, if it's only the Teutons we are able to survive and fight back but if they gained more soldiers from guest crusaders and mercenaries as they did in Battle of Grunwald, then there would of been a great threat to our existence if we were alone.
You have to look at the bigger picture. In some way Lithuania became a victim of its own success. The Ruthenian population was 3-4 times more numerous than the Lithuanian one. It was hard for Lithuania to keep the multi ethnic country bound together and fighting off the external threats at the same time. The slow downfall of Lithuania started in late XV and early XVI century. The Grand Dutchy really struggled with fighting off the Muscovites in the east, and only managed to halt the Russian expansion thanks to Polish help. In the battle of Orsha, almost half of allied forces consisted of Poles. Lithuania was not even able to prevent Moscow from taking the key fortress of Smolensk. The situation was similar in the south, Lithuania lost Yedisan to the Ottomans, and that meant no access to the Black Sea trade. Look at it this way, if Lithuania in alliance with Poland was not able to keep the key points like the mighty fortress of Smolensk, and the strategic access to the Black Sea, what makes you think, Lithuania could do it alone?
@@pacthug4life I'll write more. As i have to go in depth. Just saying i wasnt referring to that part of the video. I was referring to the part where Lithuania wasn't the biggest to its extent and at the moment where Teutons could destroy GRL. I wasn't refferring to that moment of Ottomans and Moscovites-adding to your point. Lithuania good hardly do shit because they only had enemies around, which meant Lithuania didn't have time to recover, as all their enemies aimed to exploit their losses, as mentioned before this is was because they had few allies. Also, Muscovy and the Ottomans where growing powerhouses which added to the struggle. However, we actually had a few times where Muscovy was struggling against us. One the last note, i never said that because of Jogailas marriage to Jotviga (i think), was bad or that the alliance, then union and then the PLC werent the big reasons why we survived for so long, its just that we werent that easy to be wiped out even if we went against countries like Muscovy. Especially back to my point, that Tuetons in real terms had no chance in actually doing anything to us. Unless we didnt unite.
@@mantvydasvandzinskas2525 You right, he was talking about Lithuania in the context of war with the Teutons. They could not go against Lithuania, after Lithuanian rules became catholic. Its really hard to go on a crusade against a christian duke.
@@pacthug4life Firstly, Lithuania was Pagan until the the end of 14th century, which he mentions and says that we wouldn't of survived. Just rewatched the video. However, Teutons with Livonian Order for some time attacked Lithuania (its area) before its formation as Lithuania and after the formation when they were still pagan, until 1410, where it ended with the Battle of Grunwald. Lithuania turned christian in 1387. This means for around 125 years we thought them off, when we were Pagan and they werent doing anything really. Even though he mentions that we were a low density country in terms of population, if a small Lithuania could with hold raids constantly for 125 years alone and wars from Teutons, i dont Think its valid to say we couldnt survive, when in the mean time we were gaining land. This meant more troops in the army. So, there is no way that someone can say that Lithuania couldnt hold back against Teutons, in a 1 v 1 situation. One of the reasons for the formation is that the closest tribe if say to Teutons said, we need help as we are being killed-this pushed the idea of unity=strength. Then when we united, from there-Teutons couldn't do anything. Unless they called a crusade and they got mercenaries from Europe like in the Battle of Grunwald, but still questionable if they could defeat us, which is still questionable. Yes, i guess we were struggling at the end of the 14th century. However, i understand what he meant and he didnt mean it in terms of Christianity, but when we were still pagan. As you said yourself, Catholics cant Really attack another Catholic state. Overall, im from Lithuania, if we could survive and have successful fights against the Mongols, i doubt it that Lithuania couldnt fight back against the Teutons. Its a false claim and a bold one to say. That we couldnt survive against the Teutons alone. In addition, the Teutons showed their poor discipline in the Battle of Grunwald. Where Vytautas used a retreat tactic to break the line of the enemy, very well known tactic. He did this against Teutons-Teutons were told to not run after them (Not to break the line if they do that, plus there is a letter that they got from Teuton spy or a traitor which is evident, with a letter which is now in the Berlin Archives) However, they still did that, when they knew it. By the way Ottomans started using that as well. So yh. Just saying very bold statement.
@@mantvydasvandzinskas2525 look what happened to the Novgrod. Poles did not come to stop the Russian invasion. Novgrod did not survived.
This was the first battle of Tannenberg (Grunwald) with the German knights from the Teutonic Order (English subtitles): --------- ruclips.net/video/YBs4a4Io49I/видео.html --------- During the First World War, the Germans called the battle in Prussia with the Russians "the battle of Tannenberg II". In fact, this battle was fought about 60 kilometers from Tannenberg (Grunwald). The name was to symbolize the German rematch on the Slavs, although the first battle of Tannenberg was fought with Poles and Lithuanians, and the second with the Russians (their foeies enemies)
Zalgiris
Grunwald
Tannenberg
Žalgiris
Sir, Lithuania had an equal fight with crusaders and unlike Teutonic Order, Lithuania was involved in other theaters. You stating that Lithuania was outmatched is not historically accurate, Lithuania answered with numerous counter raids to Prussia. German Chronicles often mention large armies Pagan and Rus' system were able to yield.
Agree on that, I personaly live on battlefront line and Teutonic larger wins only came with help of allies like Bohemia who came with 15K men and won in Medvėgalis or France and English knights who supported order after England and France war and stormed Kaunas. But You know, if it's Lithuania vs Teutonics it's clear win for Lithuania but it was more like Europe vs Lithuania and only leaving paganism in the past removed all that support. And not to mention Kęstutis who often liked to warn teutonics to prepare to fight vs him or run :D
Lithuania was doing all the work for Poland in the 1300’s-1400’s. Lithuania was about to take Moscow, but Poland was “throwing rocks” at Lithuania and that Resulted in the Partitions of PLC.
Lietuvos Didžioji Kunigaikštystė
lithuanians , polish were the strongest of slavs and balts so togheter they formed strong country but also they were close countries despite the slavic and baltic bs cuz they next yo each other so lithuania came from balts togheter with latvia and prusia belarusians was close with polish and lithuanians amd latvians and polish and belarusians were close to ukranians and slovaks and chezchs so basic so besicaly no matter how far you scratch wee know that basical from czechs to latvia from latvia to ukrain and from ukrain to czechs all teritories in the midlle our ocupied with close identity people language , culture , blood , and 1000 year history prooves it thats why belarusiams have lithuanian kmight in theyr flag thats why lifhuanian speaks close language to latvia as well as poland ukrain and belarusia theese countries ar baltoslavic countries only shame is that prusia is no longer amongs us no matter how much german influemc if had they were stil batlics amd close to poland took , thats just it so basicaly i call all polish comonwealth countries my brother countries aswell as finland and lithuania , ik from lv btw ....... bye😂❤
pardon my gramatix😂
👌
Prof. Robert Frost are conceptually wrong in categorization The Grand Duchy of Lithuania or Великое Княжетсво Литовское or ВКЛ, especially about dominating language and culture, most people The Grand Duchy of Lithuania/ВКЛ spoke a slavic language and the reason is simple the core part The Grand Duchy of Lithuania/ВКЛ is novadays Belorus, and литвины/litvin(that time) or belorusian(now) were/are the core ethnical group to formed ВКЛ nation, furthermore ВКЛ has a huge part AKA Rus Duchy with center in Kyiv and this was/is slavic-ukrainian lands and Ukraine and its capital Kyiv now, and the smallest part, the Prof mistakenly takes as a core for The Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Jemaite Duchy that is related to a baltic ethnical group AKA jemaite(that time) or lithuanian(now) and these lands AKA as Lithuania with a Vilnius capital now
@@martynasl9964 So why lands that is called Belorus now has a nation known as "litvin", not "jemayt" who lived in novadays Lithuania that time?
@@martynasl9964 The Grand Duchy of Lithuania or Великое Княжетсво Литовское originated in lands that is novadays Belorus. The very first capital for this duchy was Новогрудок/Novogrudok( latter Voruta, latter Kernave, latter Trakai, latter and now Vilno(slavic)/Vilnius), Novogrudok is an ancient city and the first reference is 1044 year, that is centuries before the duchy was created, and this land is novadays Belorus again, the first ruler Миндовг/ Midovg started to rule from novadays Belorus and so on. Furthermore that time western parts of novadays Ukraine and Belorus had catholic kings, and these kings had a slavic origin, and church was subordinated to Vatican, but maintain an orthodox tradition mixed with some catholicism!!! Belorus is the core for The Grand Duchy of Lithuania and most of the eastern lands related to the original core The Grand Duchy of Lithuania were occupied by Russian Empire, USSR and Russian Federation, it was slow process for centuries and the last parts were taken by russians in XX century. If you look at the map you will see novadays Belorus, and it is fully covered with The Grand Duchy of Lithuania and eastern part were litvins/belorus too, novadays Lithuania or Latvia or Ukraine were partially incorporated to The Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania#/media/File:Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania_1430.png
@@martynasl9964 The Grand Duchy of Lithuania or Великое Княжетсво Литовское history was heavily midified by Russian Empire, that time following the orders Catherine II / Екатерина II destroyed and took away a lot of historical document from novadays Belorusia, Ukraine(Rus Duchy) and renamed "litvins" to "belorussian", "ukrainian" to "malorissian" nd "jamaite" to "litivtsev", now the core belorusian part "Duchy Litivskoe" with "litvin" as the nation is known as "Belorus" and "булорус" english spelling "belorus".
@@martynasl9964 " we managed to conquer Slavic lands". If you took this lands by using a military force doesn't make you occupiers of concurred Slavic lands? It is ironic that Lithuanians systematically refer to Poles as occupiers neglecting fact
that no military force was ever used, that the Union was created out of free will.
@@martynasl9964 You surprised me by saying that you never heard of it.
:) 1420, Vitautas explains to the King Sigismudus lands of Auksztota , Samogitia and Lithuania: Sentenciastis enim et pronuncciastis primo in terra Samaytarum, que est hereditas et patrimonium nostrum ex legittima attavorum et avorum nostrorum successione, quam et nunc possidemus, que eciam est et semper fuit unum et idem cum terra Lythwanie, nam unum ydeoma et uni homines. Sed quod terra Samaytarum est terra inferior ad terram Lythwanie, ideo Szomoyth vocatur, quod in lythwanico terra inferior interpretatur. Samoyte vero Lythwaniam appelant Auxstote, quod est terra superior respectu terre Samaytarum. Samagitte quoque homines se Lythwanos ab antiquis temporibus et nunquam Samaytas appelant, et propter talem ydemptitatem in titulo nostro non de Samagicia nos scribimus, quia totum unum est, terra una et homines uni.
Sorry to say but this gentlemen has a lot of homework to do. His knowladge on this subject is basically wrong and very shallow.
are you also a historian specialised in that region/time frame?
Please, expand. Mention at least an area or two where he's wrong first
He may have simplified a bit, ut he is basically right. GDL was a mixture of several ethnic conquered by Lithuanians. I do not use word nation, because not "nation" is something more and could have various meanings, especially in English language. Let's take Adam Mickiewicz (or Mickievicius if you prefer). His fatherland was Lithuania, but he meant actually the whole (former) GDL including nowadays Belarus, But he was also Polish as a member of the political nation of the Commonwealth of "the both nations". His dominant language was also Polish. He had a sense of identity which exceeds later nationalistic pounts of view. He was a poet of for at least 3 nawadays nations... The story of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is common for several modern countries and should unite us, not divide. Every nation contributed somehow to this common republic.
@@tomaszzap9574 Do we know it was conquered though?
Prove it
Somebody, put this invalid from video away!
Ha what's wrong... Why do you have to be a dickhead?
@@lukashitas7033 for me is disgusting to see and listen him. If he is ill, he must sit at home. For healthy people around him is not comfortable to see such people. People who are not invalids, also have rights to feel good and comfortable.
@@tiptop3922 Holy shit how insecure are you.... I think people with stupid opinions like you should be locked up in prisons because they hurt my brain how stupid they sound.... That is basically what you said.... What give you the right to determine if he can or cannot do something... What do youeam 'non in Alida have right to feel good'..??? How is this guy in a wheelchair taking away your comfort...
@@tiptop3922 where the fuck are you from...
@@lukashitas7033 I am at Your back. Better look around when You go out, on the street. You are not safe anymore there.