2022 Toyota Mirai Review - Is Hydrogen really the fuel of the future ?
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- In this video I review the brand new 2022 Toyota Mirai powered by a Hydrogen Fuel Cell and dive deep into all things hydrogen. There are so many question to answer such as... Is hydrogen really the fuel of the future ? How does a hydrogen car work ? What are the Pros and Cons of a hydrogen fuel cell car ? What is the Toyota Mirai’s range ? How many hydrogen fuel station are there in the UK ?
The second generation Toyota Mirai is a stunning 4 door fastback that will deliver up to 400 miles on a tank of hydrogen. The fuel cell power train delivers 170 horsepower and is super smooth. Firstly I explore how good the car is on it's own merits but then I deep dive into just where we are on our journey to hydrogen being a fuel source for transportation.
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Would you buy a hydrogen fuel cell car ? Yes or No let me know your reasons…
Literally nobody else in any industry is using hydrogen fuel cells over batteries. Batteries are more efficient, this is a dead-end.
A hydrogen car uses up to 4 times more electricity for the same distance (making the hydrogen, compressing, Transportation and converting again to electricity in the fuel cell) I think it’s not the solution for passenger cars. Better is to put that electricity directly in a battery.
Yes, it’s an important part of the mix.
I am agreed that Hydrogen is another way forward. With more investment in hydrogen generation then it’s definitely an answer to many issues that electric vehicles have. JCB have also developed an ice engine that runs on Hydrogen, another answer to zero emissions vehicles. Yes I would buy a Hydrogen fuel cell car. I currently run an i3 alongside diesel and petrol vehicles and would not recommend anyone buy an EV without home charging capability. This could be rectified by a Hydrogen powered vehicle with enough refuelling stations.
@@JohnBaxendale In fact the opposite is true. In a post oil world the oil majors will turn to Hydrogen, it's their only choice. Not only that but hydrogen is infinitely renewable, and once fusion power comes on stream, it will be silly to spend hours charging batteries.
I bought the Toyota Mirai at the beginning of May and I have no regrets. It drives well, love the interior and exterior of the car. I have no problems refueling the hydrogen anytime.
Cool 👍
I have never seen anywhere to fill up a hydrogen car 🤷♂️
I am guessing in about 8 years when I upgrade my 16 Camry Hybrid I was thinking of going this route, but I worry about the lack of fueling stations around the country and the cost from what I seen in another video was nearly double of what it would cost to fuel my Hybrid because the fuel millage has a range of 260ish miles before refuel. Where my Camry can do over 500 miles before I need to refuel (Excusing the use of A/C and heater use.) I have to refuel it. I live here in Nevada where we don't seem to have hydrogen fueling stations available anywhere. Plenty of Tesla power stations, but I have no wish anytime soon to go full EV.
I have a lot more faith in Toyota than I do in Tesla any day of the week. What's your belief and personal experience owning one Xcell W?
@@BlueDroneBlues : After 9 months of ownership of Toyota Mirai, and based on my experience, I have to say, that the main issue with the Mirai is the lack of hydrogen stations and lack of competition to drive down the prices like it is with gas cars.
I have a hydrogen station within a mile of my house which is great. The issue is that recently, it is breaking down and is lasting close to month, before, it gets fixed. Also, they have raised the price per Kilogram, from $13 to $22, or $9. My car holds about 5 kilograms of hydrogen, which is $45 increase to refill the thank.
There are other hydrogen stations, but, they are about 13 miles away one way. There is schedule to have 3 new hydrogen stations open up within 5 miles, but, still waiting.
Right now, the increase is not an issue as Toyota has provided me with a $15,000.00 debit card to fill my car with Hydrogen. Since, I drive about $6000 miles per year, this $15,000 freebie will last me about 6 years (based on current cost per hydrogen).
Driving the car for 12 thousand miles per year, you will have free hydrogen for about 3 years.
Until hydrogen availability expands to other states besides California and NY, it will be best to wait. If California or NY resident, then, it is up to you. Am still do not have regrets about acquiring the car. 0% interest for 6 years, $15k in free hydrogen, $4,500 California rebate, free maintenance for 3 years, extended to 6 years for additional costs, use of diamond lane, love the interior and exterior, etc.,
great to hear that, Xcell Question - can you please tell me how much it costs, in US dollars to refuel your hydrogen powered vehicle a a refueling station? how much is 300 miles worth of hydrogen fuel cost ?
When studying renewable energy at college some years ago, the round cycle we obtained from wind turbine (or solar PV) to electrolyser then back to electricity via a fuel cell was only around 25%. So, to create green hydrogen on a large scale you need a lot of excess renewable energy that would normally be exported. Then there is the storage challenge caused by leakage (due to the small molecule) and also metal pipe embrittlement. That said, I do like the car and the concept of the hydrogen economy which has been talked about for decades but never developed due to the technical challenges which recent advances will, hopefully, overcome.
Couldn't agree more - Most hydrogen today comes from er...splitting Hydrocarbons!! add in distribution challenges if you want to liquify the hydrogen to transport it you use 36% of the energy in the hydrogen. Hydrogen cars are cool but the cars aren't the problem!
@@grahammakinson2601 did you actually listen to the guy from toyota? He said the hydrogen is made on site so where is the distribution problem?
@@sydsnott5042 CAN be made on site, and even then you're haemorraging energy as you make it
When I put my reply earlier, I had forgotten about the issue of hydrogen leakage due to molecule size, plus the cost of the fuel cell, I don't think pricing was mentioned at all, was it(?). OH well, it could all be a futile discussion once the electrical companies realise they not only have house holders at ransome with their prices but vehicle users as well. Then they'll be the replacement scheme for road tax (my road tax is £600, and the usual increase has doubled this year) and the compensation to the UK government for the ~75% tax in fuel duty which will be significantly less due to the banning of ICE vehicles in 2030. It all smacks of a very frustrating and expensive time ahead for private vehicle users. Also the end of outright private vehicle ownership...
Legitimate issues, but there have been some developments in the last few years. For a start the electrolysers are now up to around 80% efficiency, which improves the round trip efficiency somewhat. And the whole hydrogen storage and embrittlement thing is now under control too, as the materials scientists have been doing a lot of work in understanding it all.
The application of hydrogen in lighter transport definitely doesn't make sense from a mathematics perspective though, and none of the people i know who work in hydrogen research are pretending that it does. But for heavy duty stuff like ships and planes, the physics of batteries (the weight basically) simply doesn't add up, and won't add up for any foreseeable future.
Hydrogen might still be necessary for cars though, if battery manufacturing becomes supply-limited by raw materials. And in the long term that really is quite likely if we can't move away from lithium as the active charge carrier.
Now that's more like it 400 miles range in 3 minutes - beats EVs hands down.
your biggest challenge is finding somewhere to fill it in 3 minutes.....
I like the idea of having options, there doesn't have to be ONLY ONE answer, like you said, for HGVs and buses hydrogen would be more usable, but again as you said we should at least explore other options and not be tunnel minded. I'd love a car with a small H2 tank, a small battery and solar PV panels, it could charge when parked or not in use, and you had alternatives to make the car more usable, Great vid thanks.
Cheers Andrew 👍
i know stellantis are developing hydrogen vans..definately an answer to the range issues and lack of off street charging available...but only if someone ponies up and starts investing in hydrogen pumps... and all those saying only toyota are pushing hydrogen... most manafacturers have at least hydrogen concepts...
I mean there's a huge city in China with 14k electric buses doing 1 million passenger miles a day. And Japan has abandoned their hydrogen buses as an expensive mistake.
So no.
It's not going to happen.
Only 2 Mirai have been sold in the UK and both of them to James may. The comparisons to say a model 3 are embarrassing for Toyota in the extreme.
Sun, Wind --> H2--> Car ---> Water.... This is the future for the environment. I will buy it.
Time is alway the issue for me. I can’t take an alternative to petrol seriously unless the “Fill up” is the same or less than it is currently or the range exceeds what anyone would do on a reasonably long day e.g. 600+ miles. I like the idea of options and the fact that there is plenty of hydrogen about so keep the innovation coming!
It would be less important or crucial on a 500 to 600 mile journey Steve, because you'd have to stop for a break or food anyway. I did a 500+ mile trip in my Kia EV, and stopped just once for just under an hour, to charge. That charge got me back home again, onto my cheaper night time charge rate. Most people would probably stop for an hour during a 500+ mile trip. It could be unsafe or dangerous not to....
@@Brian-om2hh This is true for a lot of people but not everyone. I drive 850 miles a day at least once a month and I never stop for more than a couple of minutes for gas and to use the bathroom. My max time at a gas station is maybe 10 minutes. And with my truck's large tank I only need to stop once or twice on that trip. Besides diesel and gas, no other fuel source can provide that currently. Electric would drastically increase travle time in my situation.
@@730indoorsman Rigs need a ton of power to get where they need to go. I seen in a car where the fuel time from empty to full on a Miria was 4:30 seconds roughly. Which isn't so bad at all. I have no idea how long it would take to fuel a rig that would normally take up to 200 gallons of fuel per fill up and what sort of range would you get vs diesel fuel of the same range? Would you have to fuel up twice to get the same range and would the price increase or decrease with the switch.
Seems like a long ways off till Hydrogen stations become far more available through out the entire country and not just California. As much as I love my 16 Camry Hybrid where I get a normal range of 13.5 gallons give or take of at least a good 500 miles in range or up to 600 miles on a steady travel. It would be pretty amazing to have a car say by 2030 that runs of hydrogen or for a truck driver a rig that runs off hydrogen and you don't have to worry about all the heat and you could place your mouth over the exhaust pipe and won't kill or hurt you is pretty impressive!
Seems the advantages are: short time to refuel, clean H2O emissions, no massive battery to cart around and the eventual cost of replacement. This is a developing system that needs refueling stations; owner costs for fuel, and the initial cost of the vehicle plus future maintenance costs revealed.
Yes, I have come around to seeing Hydrogen as a future fuel. Congrats to Toyota for keeping the faith. Am wondering how this will work here in Australia???
I own this vehicle for about a year and I got 13k miles on it. I can tell you something, the car itself is amazing but hydrogen stations are a pain in the ass. I live in Los Angeles, we do have a few stations but they have often some technical issues, etc. Toyota offers free hydrogen at their technical center, but you have to schedule in advance, and also sometimes hydrogen is not available. Considering that I get often free hydrogen, and I had only one week in the whole year I could not drive this car due to hydrogen issues I’m happy. I got a $7k check from the state of California for hydrogen vehicles plus, $20k cashback from Toyota financial services. It was a fantastic deal last year. But if I would have to spend over $50k for this car, I would not buy it. Too much money!
it was only last year people were struggling to get petrol and diesel..so not much difference..
This FCEV by-product may even be helpful not just friendly to the environment when drive in desert. 😄😄
If everyone who live in the desert drive one FCEV, probably their national water import can even be reduced in half. 🤔🤔
I'm sold - great and very interesting video. Thank you. I've driven a BEV for a while and been dubious about hydrogen. If there were 90 stations in the UK I would make the change
HFCEV has a lot of challenges. The first fuel cell vehicle was the Honda Clarity launched in 2008, 3 years before the Leaf. Toyota and Hyundai then launched fuel cell cars. Honda have stopped selling the clarity and Hyundai are hinting that hydrogen won’t be part of their future. Having closed their ICE development division and moved everything to BEV development at the end of last year this is hardly a surprise.
Cost of running a HFCEV is always going to be greater than a BEV. It takes enormous amounts of electricity to make hydrogen and it’s difficult to contain and deliver. The result is that it takes about 4 times the amount of electricity to do a mile in a hydrogen car than it does in a BEV. It makes a lot more sense to put the electricity directly into a BEV battery and the distribution is through the existing grid. It’s currently more expensive to fuel a hydrogen car than a petrol car.
The hydrogen fuel stations are very expensive as well. Costing a couple of million to build for a station that can refuel less than 20 cars a day. The cost to build an infrastructure to take over from petrol stations with similar capacity is unrealistic, especially when a rapid charger for an EV only cost about £30k and can fill a car every half hour.
Filling isn’t as easy as it seems. Look up the Fast Lane RUclips video about running a Mirai in California. They tried hard to put a positive spin on it. It’s expensive and difficult to store hydrogen safety at 700 bar. So at the filling stations it’s stored at low pressure and pressurised up to 700 bar in a small quantity after each car fills. This takes about half an hour, and more electricity. So, Californians experience queues at hydrogen pumps waiting for the pump to pressurise. Then the nozzle can freeze during delivery so you have to wait for it to warm up to disconnect.
Stations explode as well, like the one in Norway which caused all of them in Norway to be shut. Will people want hydrogen stations at the end of their road?
Trucks - look to China first. There are many cities with completely electric bus and taxi fleets and manufacturers like BYD are manufacturing trucks. European truck manufacturers have electric models now. Tesco have 2 arctics on trial and one manufacturer has a number on trial with businesses in Germany, can’t remember which one. The city of Montpellier in France has just cancelled an order for a hydrogen bus fleet as it wasn’t happening. BEV buses are available almost off the shelf from BYD.
Whatever the technical merits of the technologies BEV is the direction we’re going. Regardless of legislation the car manufacturers are going that way and so are the truck manufacturers. The Electric Viking RUclips channel is worth a watch as he studies the market and thinks that if Legacy car manufacturers don’t drop ICE soon they will go out of business because of the scale of Chinese EV manufacturers exporting good quality cheap cars and Tesla increasing production enormously. It’s an interesting view.
God you don't half go on.
From the Netherlands here. we now have around 15 placed were you can fill up. I'm convinced this will be the real future. i drive around 60000km a year for work in a hybrid. But i will step in to a fuel cell if the network is there. I really would like to make the statement. let"s don't forget lithium can run out to and its VERY difficult to recycle . I know you need a small battery as a buffer with fuel cell to but the less you need the better.
Using green electricty to produce Hydrogen is the way to go. During a sunny or windy day over here we have an abundance of electricity due to windmills and solar. Just use that to produce hydrogen and "store " energy. Sure, in the long run this will not be sufficient but its a good first step. I am sure this will get more efficient in the future if we want to.
I have been waiting for it for nearly 2 decades...
I firmly believe that hydrogen is the future, even JCB has hydrogen combustion engines being tested as an alternative to diesel. My question is how much does a kg of hydrogen cost? Does it compare to existing fuel and electrons?
But have you researched where that hydrogen is going to come from?
They've already got EV mini-diggers on sale, so "testing" hydrogen as an alternative isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of Hydrogen :)
JCB are looking at Hydrogen. maybe it needs a flux capacitor too. I agree this is a great alternative. Great presentation ;-) Love it.
Thanks Keith 👍
really good video pete and full of detail, would love to see more of this kind of content.
Thanks 👍
the key here is a range of options and sources of mobility, all options need to be supported to see how things develop - we've had diesel and petrol for years and we should be thinking of gettign the right options for various scenarios.
I agree 👍
yah, my company have trialled every available EV and hybrid van.. nothing so far has been anywhere near good enough for what we need..
Really good film. Thorough and well considered. I was already sold on the HFC vehicle years back, great level of detail.
Great video, recognize a lot of the roads you were driving on, not far from my office and old home :) I agree fuel cell cars seems to be the way forward, I have thought that since I saw it on Top Gear years ago. Having just only got my latest car (M135i) last October I doubt it will be ready for me to get one in 3yrs time though :(
Interested to hear that the hydrogen filling stations can actually generate their own! I thought I read somewhere recently that with investment, existing petrol stations could be converted to be hydrogen filling stations.
Awesome review as always
Thanks 👍
The main problem with hydrogen cars is the efficiency. For the same amount of electricity, an EV will travel about 3 times further than the equivalent hydrogen one. What I mean is that the electricity that it takes to generate enough hydrogen to go 100km is about 3 times as much as charging a BEV. A hydrogen car has all the advantages of an EV, plus quick ":recharge" time. The main problem is that we will need 3 times the electricity generation capability as the BEV equivalent.
With wind farms many of the turbines are shut down outside of grid demand. With hydrogen production the turbines can run any time there is wind. This make the wind farms more efficient and give you another sellable energy. Many wind farms are being fitted with electrolisers now. Hydrogen price per kg will inevitably reduce.
...but a hydrogen car would get you there much quicker..
There are EV's that can fully charge in 3 minutes via battery swap stations. You can also charge an EV overnight when you are sleeping. With the new charging systems in development the charge time will down to under 10 minutes.
Wind turbines typically have a capacity factor of 30%. So your electrolyzer would would only be working about 15% of the time.
I think you are correct. I know my fellow citizens here in the States and waiting to charge a car for 30 minutes might cause riots unfortunately. The hydrogen fuel cell appears far more acceptable for folks where stopping to recharge during a trip would be mandatory and where the extra time at a charging station would be a bit of a hardship in some professions. In a country as large as ours the infrastructure demands and cost would be enormous. If however existing stations could easily convert to hydrogen, that could be mitigated. EXCELLENT video, I didn't know a lot about this and your explanation and points were concise and thought provoking.
The point of a battery electric car is to charge it when it's not in use, in which case charging doesn't really cost you any time - for those people who have no access to such a level 2 charger, yes they may have to wait 30 minutes at a rapid charging station. However, if California's hydrogen infrastructure projects acts as an indicator, moving to a hydrogen vehicles often doesn't save you from those 30 minute wait times. Between stations running out of fuel, and the "internal charging" of the hydrogen station itself, people with hydrogen cars either have to wait in lineups for 20-30 minutes, or they have to drive around, wasting time and fuel, while looking for an empty station. The facts are: hydrogen stations have a lesser throughput rate than gas stations, meaning each individual hydrogen station will not be able to serve as many cars as current gas stations - that means consistent lineups and wait times.
Wait till it gets cold.
Refueling hydrogen in colder temperatures can have you there at the pump for over 3 hours!
Terrific video and hugely informative. I really enjoyed it. Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Double thumbs up Ped 👍👍
👍👍
I'm in the states, Baltimore Maryland.. and I believe that some of our taxi's, bus and other forms of public transport have switched to fuel cell. Even some of the larger companies have fuel cell fleet vehicles, like our utility company and some long haul trucks as well.. just wanted to pass this on as you had mentioned public transportation..
Thank you for the videos, I think you have great content 👍
I believe that hydrogen power will be the power of the future.
Cars can be filled much quicker and it provides a longer range for a vehicle per fillup. Now you need electricity for electrolysis to produce the hydrogen. There are already times during a 24 hour period when this country produces excess electricity, during the night for example. How is that excess currently stored? Simple answer not efficiently. If it was used to generate hydrogen which can more easily be stored then that is a viable solution. If and when this country finally does invest in fusion power then we will have unlimited relatively cheap electricity with minimal emissions. The government need a long term strategy rather than short term politics.
Very interesting idea. I appreciate that a three minute fill gives you somewhere close to 400 miles range. My only concern is this. How efficient is this system? They use electricity to make the hydrogen. The car then uses hydrogen to make electricity. One of these is going to be more efficient than the other. So I am guessing that overall it’s going to be less efficient than using an electric vehicle. I am ready to be corrected.
the 3 minute fill is a best case
it is NOT fill a car every 3 minutes
each time a car gets filled, the station has to generate more H2, and re-presurise the tanks to be able to deliver the 350 or 700 bar
which can take 15 mintues each time
its not cheap distilling petrol or LPG gas either..
It's around 25% efficient....
I think I remember seeing a news report saying the offshore wave/tide generators in Shetland or Orkneys were going to produce hydrogen in low demand times to use the power up.
@@garyg3617 Yes, that's correct. They're hugely into renewables up in Orkney. They generate around 20% more electricity than they use, so the excess goes to the mainland Scottish grid. There are now 300+ EV's in use on Orkney..... The Fully Charged Channel on here did a video on it a while ago.....
In Australia using LPG I can do 600KM for about $60 AUD. My 2014 Ford Falcon (4L inline 6) will do 0 to 100 in 6.3 seconds. Things need to improve and become cheaper before I think about upgrading.
Just wanted to see you filling it up. Waiting for the next video
We struggled to get permission to film 😢
This is very interesting, but only 11 in the UK
I was in single digits when I first saw Hydrogen fuel cell technology showcased. I’m now in my 50s and still were are being told its a fuel of the future.
I was a fuel cell test engineer 20 years ago. It's an amazing technology. So simple, but so clever.
I was impressed with how robust the technology (the stack) was, given how thin all the individual layers of the stack are, which in itself is mind blowing. We had stacks running continuosly for 1000s and 1000s of hours.
Whether or not one will buy a hydrogen-powered vehicle depends heavily on how easy to get hydrogen. Instead of going to the hydrogen fuel station which is rare to find at the moment and that discourage users to buy hydrogen fuel cell cars, why don't they deliver hydrogen tank to your house because each vehicle only need a 6 kg (a little more than 12 lb) hydrogen tank that is not heavy to replace. End-users don't have to go around looking for fuel stations. With that mobility, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles can be more popular.
Hi Pete it’s a big yes from me it’s a no Brainier I am a little bit concerned with the amount of hydrogen pressure it’s ok in a new car but what will it be like ten years down the line 🤔 a grate vid as usual Les.
Ped, the biggest criticism of BEV’s is charger availability and there are nearly 20,000 chargers with 10 or 11 hydrogen stations you don’t stand a chance of it being feasible.
26,000 public charging connections in the UK at the moment Rob. With the number set to increase by a further 30,000 in 2022 alone.
Great video Ped! Beats battery electric any day.
Happy Friday
👊
The Mirai does 357 miles on the £65k model. The 400mile model costs over £90k. Hydrogen is not remotely green at present. 99.3% of H2 comes from fossil fuels (natural gas). Hydrogen is hopelessly inefficient. Only 25%-35% of power used to create H2 makes it to the car. Compared to 90% on a BEV. So you need 3-4 times as much power generation for the same number of H2 cars. The laws of physics just can’t be broken. This is why VW dropped H2 cars. Toyota’s CEO is an outspoken opponent of EVs, which is why their world-view is rather distorted.
If you want to pay £20k more than a Tesla for a car you can’t refuel almost anywhere, then great. But it’s not a solution for personal transport.
The tax issue is laughably easy to solve when EVs are in the majority, a road tax based on purchase price of the vehicle (like council tax) can be applied each year. However, the 33.1million ICE cars on the road, plus any sold until 2030 will be paying road tax for decades to come.
Toyoda is an outspoken opponent of EVs for the reason that they are kind of a scam. Toyoda is after a long term future for his company, EVs can't provide that and this is probably why other makers were so reluctant to start. The problem is that the car makers hands are forced due to FOMO.
@@robertdewar1752 BYD, Nio, Xpeng plus loads of other brands you've never heard of will happily do to Toyota what Toyota did to Detroit.
The BYD Dolphin is crazy cheap and is likely to come to Europe this year.
@@peterwilliamson1825 What did Toyota do to Detroit? Are you starting a new topic?
@@robertdewar1752 In the US, Toyota now outsell the Detroit based car manufacturer GM.
@@peterwilliamson1825 Yes - That's capitalism. It's great until it isn't, right? I'm not sure what this and Vietnamese car companies coming to Europe has to do with Toyoda's penchant for H2 powered cars though?
That's a beautiful car, but the main issue with hydrogen is to produce it involves a very energy and fossil fuel intensive process so you're not really solving the real problem of emissions. Yes whilst the car drives it's not creating emissions but I've read the production of hydrogen is so bad for the environment that the benefits of the transport are negated.
in much the same way electricity is produced to charge BEV's i should imagine..
Plus the manufacture of fuel cells still requires platinum......
Good looking car and one initial massive benefit is the refuelling task is just like a petrol/diesel.
It is once you eventually find a filling point.....
Brother BEV for personal transportation is the only way to go, we need to save hydrogen fuel cell for heavy industry and the military!
Have a look at JCB. They are making hydrogen combustion engines and their own hydrogen producing unit. These could be transported to any construction sight and used straight away.
Toyota do this too 👍
The refuelling time of 3 minutes makes traditional EV charging look like old tech. Eye opening
Yep 👍
Another great vid Mr P, But sadly this is the Laser disc of 2022, Hybrid is the only way forward i think. No Range anxiety and very good mpg. This will soon be joining Betamax ......
Nope. I think you'll find hybrids will disappear from most car makers ranges within the next 5 years. They are to be eventually banned in the UK. They still require fossil fuel.....
@@Brian-om2hh Sorry to disagree mate, We dont have the infrastructure to support a total ban on Petrol/Diesel. Its never going to happen in 10 years let alone 5. Its all a Green Dream that will take way more investment to work. Most of us can`t afford an Electric car or have a place to charge it safely. I am not a betting Man but a total ban will not happen so all that`s left is Hybrid. And as for Hydrogen, I think that is an even bigger problem. Only about 15 stations in the UK. Not enough there at all either...
Good review Pete, its a case of the tortoise and the hare.shell pushing in more stations and ineos with jim ratcliff on board with hydrogen.Price of new vehicles will come down and hopefully compare with ev.buses and ships started use.How long before aircraft industry start looking.? Moggy start investigating! Keep up your exellent reviews mate
It is amazing we talk about cars they talk about vans but they have minimal to do with what is pushed on the road with lots of need for power need for consumption of fuels who really believes trucks can be a reality for EV? I don’t really see it, and therefore to have a clean system vehicle for the most important transportation be at the truck and the fact the trucks are very popular that are on the personal level as well. Here you go!
A really interesting show I had heard about Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars but have to confess had never looked into the technology, I know have a much better idea of just how it works.
I am going to now have to look at the process that produces the Hydrogen, it does seem so logical to utilise the most common element on the planet to create energy.
Keep up the good work love the channel
I guess you didn’t visit Toyota UK, that’s near my house near Derby, I think you went to TGB? Anyway,
the Mirai 2 is a fabulous design and superbly finished road ready vehicle. You didn’t cover price, and who knows how much each one costs to manufacture, which I guess is the other hurdle to mass market adoption. I look forward to hopping into a Mirai mini cab sometime soon, the Avensis cannot live for ever!
I like it 👍
3 minutes to fill up a tank? Count me in! No more frustrations and waiting at the charging stations.
👍
I am just surprised that everybody is going for the high tech solutions. A standard internal combustion engine can be converted to run on hydrogen or petrol. A simple switch allows it to change fuels. I saw this when I visited Sofia, Bulgaria in the early 2000s and found that most of the cities taxis ran on hydrogen when in the city for zero pollution. The range was a bit limited because only one hydrogen tank was fitted as there was also a petrol tank which was normally nearly empty and only filled for long distances when out of town. There were only two hydrigen filling stations, located in the north and south parts of the city. Thi solution was quite cheap to do only requiring a couple of solenoid valves, some plumbing and the hydrogen tank, so it could run as a normal petrol car or as a zero emission hydrogen car. Ideal during a time when there are not many hydrogen filling stations available. Again they only took a few minutes to refill with liquid hydrogen.
Thank you for the video. Looking for a new cae. We would love to buy a hydrogen one
It would be interesting to find out how much it costs to fill the tank with hydrogen and therefore compare running costs of ICE and BEV vehicles?
It's between £10-£15 per KG, so something like £0.15 to £0.22 per mile (assuming a 400 mile range), compared to an off-peak home charged BEV which can be as cheap as £0.01-£0.02 per mile (always depends on the tariff though)
It’s funny really - imagine the future - turning up to a filling station and within 3 or 4 minutes the tank is full and you can drive 400 miles. Eh? That sounds familiar…. Oh yes, it’s petrol and diesel! It’s like we have to go backwards to go forwards in a way. Strange times.
Hydrogen for haulage sounds like it could be an option - fewer filling stations around distribution hubs, lower weight so not impacting your haulage/load capacity vs heavy batteries, faster turnaround time if you have your cabs running constantly with different drivers (i.e you don’t want to leave them overnight to charge 100-200kwh batteries). For cars I think BEV is more practical - too many filling stations to roll out for hydrogen, plus eventually BEV may help with smart charging/V2G to balance supply/demand in the grid as it gets bumpier with more renewables.
The infrastructure is there it’s just currently selling petrol and diesel. Filling time is similar to filling a normal ice vehicle so it would be a matter of converting the existing fuel network.
Not a good option for hauling heavy loads.
The hydrogen itself is very costly and the maintenance associated with this type of energy is even more than diesel semi trucks.
The heavier the load the more fuel you use and less efficient that vehicle becomes,so in turn a diesel is far more efficient than a hydrogen is, hell even gad is more efficient than hydrogen.
@@willgoodchild4343 no its not.
We have two hydrogen stations in Ontario which is larger than most countries and whennits cold out expect to be there for hours on end refueling and not getting a full tank, let alone the insane cost.
Evs are far better, just plug them in, can even charge them at work, can't park a Mirai inside because the car will Ventnor ALL the hydrogen if not used for a while.
Theoretically , it's a brilliant idea to have a hydrogen fuel cell car . But, how about " Safety " ? Will the car explode in serious car accidents / car crashes etc. ? Thanks.
No more dangerous than carrying a tank of petrol in the car 👍
Hi ped I’m a heavy plant machinery operator and I think this is the way to go . Your review was spot on and very interesting thankyou
I enjoyed watching the Video Review. A great looking Hydrogen Car
👍
The issue, at the moment, with HFC vs BEV v ICE is energy wasted from production to propelling the vehicle.
A pure EV is, on average 73% efficient, in other words 27% of the energy required to produce the fuel is wasted.
With hydrogen power the *waste* is 78%, the fuel only being 22% efficient. So you can see that already there’s a huge argument against hydrogen, even before the safety issue comes into play.
That said, both are substantially more efficient than a traditional ICE at 13% .
There are other technologies being developed - Porsche have their synthetic petrol and a team at Glasgow Uni are working on a system where you simply drain/refill the battery electrolyte at a filling station in a modified version of what we do now with petrol and diesel.
Then there’s solar and aluminium-ion, the latter providing a hypothetical 2700 mile range on one charge, and no doubt other new ideas in the pipeline.
We’ll probably find, however, that the “best” system isn’t necessarily the one that will win (think Beta vs VCR for those of us old enough to remember), it’ll be the one the greatest number of manufacturers back.
As for the loss of revenue from fuel duty, pay-as-you-drive is coming, which, tbh, is much fairer…
The hydrogen cycle is no more efficient than getting from pumping crude to a gallon at the petrol station. The electric motor is where the efficiencies kick in but it makes a lot more sense to go directly from grid into batteries.
Your efficiency point is moot because people don't actually care about it. Building a car that can go 0-60 in 5 seconds is a waste of efficiency. Building a car with windows that open is a waste of efficiency. Driving a car with only 1 person in it is a waste of efficiency, they should be driving an electric motorcycle. Buying an SUV for normal city roads is a waste of efficiency. There are hits on efficiency everywhere, BUT people are buying big vehicles that go fast with windows and driving them with only 1 person. The market doesn't care. They haven't even been buying gasoline hybrids which are more efficient ICE cars.
@@k1fizz With petrol approaching £7 a gallon I don’t think efficiency is a moot point. Besides why would I for example, having driven an EV for 3 years now want to go back to an equivalent ICE car and throw my money away every time I fill it up. My 20,000 km cost €350 of electricity last year.
@@kiae-nirodiariesencore4270 the market decides what manufacturers build. If the market wanted efficiency above everything else, we would be driving windowless pods that go 0-60 in 20 seconds. But no, they’re buying big vehicles with windows.
I here what you say but isn't this inefficient more than offset with the energy required in the extraction and use of fossil fuels to generate the electricity required to charge your EV.
This is the way forward without any doubt as it gives us exactly what we have with fossil fuel vehicles we are all used to.
On a more realistic note, you can watch Sabine Hoffstetter's channel vid on this, where she summarizes:
"In summary, hydrogen production at the moment has a high carbon footprint because it's almost exclusively done using fossil fuels. Reducing the carbon footprint of hydrogen production seems difficult according to estimates, but at the moment there's basically no real-world data. Hydrogen produced by wind and solar will almost certainly not be economically competitive with that derived from fossil fuels but using nuclear power might be an option. Building infrastructure for a transport-system based on hydrogen would eat up a lot of money. It seems that the rare metal supply for hydrogen fuel cells is going to become a
problem in the near future which won't help making the technology affordable. Keeping hydrogen stored and under pressure adds to the cost and makes those systems heavy which isn't great for transport. And finally, hydrogen-powered cars don't like cold temperatures."
Airplane’s, Boats, Train’s, heavy plant yes.
Trucks maybe.
Passenger cars and Buses No.
I totally agree with you that this is the way forward I don’t see battery being the way too go it’s Causing environmental problems getting the core material for the batteries then at the end of its life how are we disposing of the batteries
Definitely agree all good but could be expensive initially and has a bit to catch up on electric powered cars. But Definitely agree Pete 👍
Cheers 👍
But it's unlikely to catch up with EV's, because as it's trying to catch up, EV development will progress further still.......
Maybe the UK needs to get it’s act together on infrastructure and that would let the consumers choose. A year ago you would have got a tsunami of abuse from the BEV community. Now you are getting a proper debate. Good video.👍
The consumers are choosing now Leslie. They'd be waiting if they felt there was an alternative worth waiting for......
@@Brian-om2hh I own a PHEV and a BEV. The BEV is for city driving which is work based. Fo everything else the PHEV is much better. The choice as it stands is between Dino juice or tethered to a deteriorating battery. Fuel cell vehicles give the best of both worlds so yes I will wait a bit longer for that choice.
Yes I would buy one as I don’t think electric is the future. We don’t have the infrastructure in the UK nor do we have the power stations to provide enough power. With costs of electric going up it’s just too expensive to buy the car and operate. There is also the issue of how do you charge a car if you live in a flat or only have on street parking?
The National Grid disagree, as they see no problem with electric vehicles in the future. In fact, so confident are the National Grid, they were one of the organisations who lobbied to get the ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars brought *forward* to 2030 from 2035. The National Grid anticipate 9 million EV's on Britain's roads by 2030. And it's the National Grid who actually run the grid, and not you, I'll take their word over yours if that's ok..... And if the cost of electricity rises, then so will the cost of petrol and diesel, because oil refineries use lots of electricity......
Yes i would like to have a fuel cell car. In Switzerland they have over 50 Trucks, Lorries from Hyundai with Hydrogen. I think BMW stopped it's R+D on them sadly. I hope that Gov. around the world would do more and invest in Hydrogen for many different power uses. Thank U Pet, that was very interesting.
I believe hydrogen is the energy carrier of the future. The biggest challenge to switching to a FCEV is the availability of hydrogen refueling stations at places where you’ll be commuting. The key to making hydrogen our future is convincing policy makers, lawmakers and governments to pay for the infrastructure now as oppose to BEVs where it’s free now but we pay for the major infrastructures later. In the long run, we are saving more money putting up the hydrogen infrastructure now than putting up the BEV infrastructure upgrades later. Another key consideration that makes hydrogen a better choice is how this transition would disrupt the automotive industry and its supply chain. It would also affect the government revenue streams on petroleum taxation. Hydrogen would provide the least disruptive path if automakers would switch to producing hydrogen internal combustion engines (H2ICEs), then plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), and then to FCEVs. Not only would it prevent major disruptions in the automotive industry but it would also provide the highest impact in decarbonizing and eliminating global emissions problems.
No. Living in West Wales it can be restrictive for petrol especially in the winter on a weekend late drive home. It is actually easier to charge an EV after 8pm and when I get home close to empty it will be full by the next morning.
Also to add I see it a great solution fir Buses and HGVs with large tanks and being able to fill at their own depot.
I love my plug-in electric car. On short trips I drive on electricity. And on longer trips, I have Tesla's supercharger network.
And I do not have to pay for expensive fuel, services and maintenance all the time.
If the infrastructure improves and the vehicles are realistically priced, then I’d be interested… Time will tell…
The Mirai is £50k, so quite a way to go on that score......
Fascinating. Really think this is the future
👍
I like the idea of filling up quick. It would also give the government a chance to put fuel duty on that rather than road pricing.
However, converting the hydrogen is way less efficient than a straight BEV. Makes it a tough sell
Not having to use public EV charging network would be a massive plus
The decision to go with road pricing is already set. The final plans will be revealed later this year....
Its been my opinion for many years that Hydrogen is the way forward. Far more versatile and definitely a better answer to pure electric power. Well done in ringing it to the fore
Er, a hydrogen powered car *is* an electric car!!
@@Brian-om2hh you know exactly what i mean in my comment but of course there is always a smart arse. Not having to spend hours charging at the mains but being able to fill up in a matter of minutes is the advantage Hydrogen brings as you well know i meant.
Harry's garage has a good video on the use of Hydrogen for commercial and plant machinery he talks to Lord Bamford JCB. (7mths ago) There was allegedly a guy in America who is doing bolt on kits for diesel vehicles that I read on some forum.
Nobody talks about the cost of producing Hydrogen, yes the element exists naturally but as a compound.
The other is Toyota is also suggesting burning hydrogen in an ICE car.
But then there's a bigger question if every runs a hydrogen powered car what happens to all that water they produce?
Fascinating video wasn’t aware a hydrogen powered vehicle is basically an EV that produces its own electric. Also curios of a hydrogen station in Derby, being Derby based we presume it will be near the Toyota Plant. We’ve always preferred a hybrid but hydrogen could be the best of both worlds
If refuelling takes only three minutes and gives a range of 400 miles and emits water from the exhaust, I want one!
Even if the nearest fuelling point is 200 miles away?
@@Brian-om2hh Ha-Ha, well I'll have 400 miles of range! But Yes of course there needs to be huge investment in infastructure and more Hydrogen fuelling stations. The car buying public will surely see Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars are a more convenient option than Electric!
Very interesting proposition, hydrogen fuel cell car has been experimented with by a few manufacturers.
And all in all, it's a sound prospect if only the infrastructure was in place I'd would opt in for one of these vehicles as people have all ready mentioned it sounds more feasible for commercial transport .
But I think all options need to be considered 🤔
I really do like hydrogen powered cars. I feel that money should be placed into it for resource and development. I also feel that it's politics. Money is put into electric cars because the batteries and solar panels that make electricity mainly comes from one large country that control the market. If we want more hydrogen cars on the road we need to push the law makers to do so.
Pete reading through the comments that are for and against I think if you need to follow up this video with one about the production of hydrogen. If it is to be the fuel of the future we need to know it’s better for the environment both in its manufacture and running of vehicles.
I think one key question that was not asked? Is how much has Toyota invested in this technology. To get it to work? I think that is a key factor in why this government has chosen battery technology.
Hydrogen stations costs way to much, and is not efficient end to end, problems that I don’t think will go away mostly due to Phyiscs 🤣
Hi Ped
Very interesting to hear your thoughts on hydrogen. Check out Harry’s Garage interview with Lord Bamford at JCB. They have converted one of there internal combustion engines to run on hydrogen. I wonder how the costs and efficiency compare to the likes of converting energy from a chemical reaction into electric power to drive a motor. Maybe we haven’t seen the end of the internal combustion engine just yet
And how will the hydrogen actually get to JCB?
This is the answer, EV just a stepping stone imo.
Or, here on planet reality -'the future'!
Watch this space .....
Volkswagen don't think so. They've invested 800 billion in electric vehicle production....
Hydrogen will be part of the mix - but it's a long way off as we don't have clean hydrogen yet in any kind of quantity and it will take a very long time until we do. In that time we may well improve battery technology and we will certainly improve the charging infrastructure massively. The only thing holding battery ev's back is speed of charging. If you can charge every 300 miles in less than 30 minutes, then there is no need for anything else. Commercial vehicles are very different, but electric buses work fine for most uses as proven in many Cities across the world.
350kWh charging is here and chargers are being installed. Cars like the Taycan have 350kW charging. At 4 miles per kW economy that’s about 12 minutes to put 300 miles in a battery. Tesla, I think, can charge up to 250kWh.
There are many large cities in China which have completely BEV bus and taxi fleets.
@@EVinstructor It's 270kw max peak for the Taycan.
@@EVinstructor Whilst there are a number of cars that will charge quickly, as Ped himself discovered with the MG ZS EV, if the range isn't sufficient and the charge speed isn't quick, then it makes life difficult. Short range isn't so much of an issue if charge rate is quick and chargers are accessible and work consistently. So we need to see smaller cars with fast charging at lower prices for many drivers to feel confident to buy. We're getting there and the sooner the better as far as I'm concerned because I love the driving experience EVs give and the lack of local pollution particularly.
@@evornotev7794 I have a 40kW Leaf. A smallish battery by current standards. I’m a driving instructor and charge overnight so day to day living with the car is much easier than a petrol car. It’s rapid charge rate is 50kWh maximum.
On a long journey I can realistically travel 120 to 150 miles before I need to charge. I can hear the gasps of horror from readers of this now. But think about it. On UK roads the fastest journey possible is on motorway where the average speed (at best) is 50MPH. On A roads and busy motorways even slower. 100 miles is a 2 to 3 hour drive. We’ll put aside Rule 91 of the Highway Code for the moment and say that just for common sense safety a driver should stop for a quick break after 2 hours. Many drivers will need the toilet, food or drink after this time anyway.
The last long journey I did needing a rapid charge going from Portsmouth to Devon I stopped after about 120 miles at Taunton Deane services on the M5. I plugged my Leaf in to charge. The full journey was 180 miles so I only needed 60 more miles in the battery, about 10 minutes charging. By the time I’d used the toilet and bought myself a coffee the car had more than enough in the battery to finish the journey. By the time I’d drunk my coffee it had even more. It was a free charge on one of the new Gridserve units as well.
3 years ago when I first got an EV there were a lot fewer rapid chargers. In just 3 years the network has grown. New EV models are expected to have at least 100kWh charging capability and chargers are expected to run at that rate, 3 years ago 50kWh was normal and 100kWh almost fantasy land rumoured on new models. At the high end 350kWh is happening. It won’t be long before these high speeds are normal.
My point is that drivers of ICE cars are looking at EVs from a fossil fuel perspective. The run until it’s empty then fill to full mentality. Using an EV doesn’t work that way but they still want to fit it into that use model. I’d say any EV that can do 200 miles and charge at 100kWh is more than adequate on British roads driving within the rules of the road and remaining safe. There will be those who say they want to travel 300 miles without stopping. I’m a driver trainer, if someone says that to me on a fleet driving assessment we’d be having a conversation about the rules of the road and attitudes to driving and I’d speak to their boss about the law if they said their boss made them do it. It’s simply unsafe.
@@EVinstructor Couldn't agree more. It's changing that perception of 'I don't want to change my use habit' that is the difficulty, hence my comment that if more rapid charging vehicles are available we will change that perception quicker. I've made a number of 1,000+ road trips in an EV without difficulty, but it was a Tesla, so it just proves that if the infrastructure is available with fast charging then swapping to EV is a no brainer.
I'll always like the relatively speedy refueling of fuel cell hydrogen. One might also expect them to be lighter in weight than a BEV. I wonder if Formula EV are interested in any exhibition racing featuring fuel cell hydrogen racing cars. What would the drivers think about the handling? What would the pit crews think about the fueling characteristics of such vehicles? So many fascinating things to ponder...
I think motorsport is more likely to go down the synthetic fuels route. Maybe hydrogen internal combustion 👍
Hydrogen vehicles tend to be about as heavy as BEVs, although it varies from model to model. A second-gen Mirai on par with a Tesla Model 3 Performance, pound for pound that Tesla does almost the same driving range, and is a whole heck of a lot faster. Conversely, a base RWD Hyundai Ioniq 5, despite being a bigger car, is slightly lighter than the Mirai, while the premium trim is slightly heavier than the Mirai. With the way things are going, I would expect batteries to get lighter before hydrogen tanks and hydrogen fuel cells get any lighter.
I would buy one if there were more hydrogen stations
@@0hypnotoad0 the Mirai weighs over 5600lbs a bev is lighter in comparison.
Great review hopefully their will be more makers of hydrogen cars and other fuel types of cars as their has to be other options than electric 👏😎
So you'd prefer more expensive options then?
@@Brian-om2hh weren’t electric cars expensive when they first came to the market and if you want a Tesla a top end one it’s not cheap so what I am saying hopefully their will be different options to powering cars yes hydrogen isn’t cheap but it’s still in its infancy and so is it’s infrastructure 😎
Stan Meyers had already developed all this technology 30 years ago and then was killed because he wouldn't sell his patents to big oil. Hydrogen fuel cells were used in busses at the commonwealth games in the 90's by Ballard as a demo. Hydrogen can be produced at home. Ballard found that the cells worked well with purified water. They got it for the "Games demo" from my water company.
Pedro, you have changed my mind! Currently have a PHEV, going to a BEV shortly. What would be interesting is a proce comparison for the cars compared to their current range, and what sort of price it would be to fill up with hydrogen
theres not really a good comparison, hydrogen, currently is far more expensive, but thats down to small scale of production... if it takes off, ggets invested in and is developed over time, it could become a lot cheaper.
Mirai is £50k.....
The UK needs to invest in Hydrogen tech
👍
But who pays if there is virtually no interest? Only 30 hydrogen cars were sold last year in the UK. The words flog, dead, and horse come to mind..... Would you put up billions of pounds for infrastructure on that basis?
Oh yeah big man
Awesome car 👍👍💪😎
The basics exist, it's far more about physics than chemistry+physics, as with battery tech, which is evolving, and has many opportunities for material 'tweaking' (hemp products, for eg), work them out - if you can - then come back and be all upbeat.
Yes easier to fill in a fraction of the time and greener no heavy batteries and good mileage
I have been waiting for these cars and the infrastructure... so much better than battery cars, in respect of what we are used to...
Nice looking car, inside and out. If the infrastructure were fit for purpose I'd be very happy to have one of those on the drive. Get that right and to me it would be preferable to an EV.
👍
It is a EV I’m guessing you mean a BEV
One slight snag would be that you wouldn't be able to "fuel" it on your drive using cheap rate energy.....
Couple of questions, how much is the car, or how much would it be if they sold a lot more? How long does the fuel cell last before it's done and how much to replace? What's the service requirements? How much is hydrogen to buy, and how much could it be if it was mass produced? For me this potentially make much more sense than battery EVs.
A simple answer to all your questions :-
EXPENSIVE .......!!
@@andymccabe6712 Quite. It's never going to be less expensive than petrol or diesel.....
You'd have to compare this new H2 and FC technology with the BEV technology in its early days, not where BEV currently is - that's come a very long ways with the R&D thrown at it as well as the availability of charging stations.
And whilst hydrogen FC technology for cars and its infrastructure still has a long way to go before it can really compete with BEV cars, perhaps Toyota (and others) introduce hydrogen hybrid cars (like they do for petrol hybrid cars), so you can still charge with electricity when there is no hydrogen fuel station nearby when needed. Till plenty of hydrogen fuel stations are available (inter)nationally.
Whatever do away with the engine is a PLUS for me. Less parts, less maintenance, less oil change, less park plugs, less filling Coolant, less trip to the dealers, less mechanic rip off, and more saving my money. So far, electric vehicle meet those.
When Harry Metcalf went to JCB and looked at the work they are doing to power their equipment with hydrogen, the smart money is going to be this fuel. Would I buy one? if the infrastructure is there. But in Australia we have only one or two outlets.