The Toyota Mirai is Disappointing
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- Опубликовано: 21 июн 2023
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I couldn't pass up the opportunity to try out a hydrogen fuel cell powered car! The problem with this car and the technology that powers it is there aren't enough benefits to outweigh the downsides (for most people). Regardless, I'm still excited about the technology and hopeful it makes its way into more appropriate and useful scenarios. I also hope the price of hydrogen comes down because dang.
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Going into this video I expected you to be a playa-h8er since you're an EV fanatic, but this was a pretty fair assessment. The Mirai... is a very WHELMING car... 😅
I think it was Out of Spec Reviews which said that the Carbon composite fuel tanks need replacing after 5 years, because they degrade. If so, then that's another thing o add to the TCO.
The battery being so small is another issue. If a cell can be recharged 1,000 to 5,000 times, depending upon the technology, it will not take long for it to become worn out in a Mirai. Supposing you have to use all of the battery capacity 10 times in a daily commute, perhaps in start/stop traffic or over hilly terrain, the battery can become useless within a couple of years.
To most people, there's no financial advantage to buying a H₂ powered car and keeping it for very long.
Filling the tanks is arguably more of a chore than plugging in a Tesla to recharge while you take a bathroom break, maybe eat something, have some water or a coffee and stretch your legs. Everyone needs to do that at least once within a couple of hundred miles of driving.
Hydrogen is an effective solution for humanity, but with the right implementation, which was not the right solution for the oil producers and the auto industry's existing revenue streams! Over 30 years ago, a British company developed a "just in time" hydrogen vehicle. It was able to efficiently convert water into hydrogen at a faster rate than it was consumed. They developed a working model, the oil industry saw this as a threat to their revenue stream, so they killed off the development team, and destroyed the vehicle. Certain aspects of the technology can be found in patents.
All you needed was a tank full of water - zero petroleum. You can only talk about the defective technologies that drive revenues, not the best solutions technically possible.
A similar vehicle was developed in Florida, the developer disappeared!
The same can be said for Electrical energy. A team in California developed a zero point energy device, about the size of a washing machine, negating the need for a national grid. But the power of control and revenue did not want to loose either power or revenue, so the technology which was working in a lab in LA was confiscated and destroyed, and the developer life was threatened if he ever pursued this development in the future.
This is the world we live in. Nothing wrong with technology, but the efficient technology is suppressed so that others can capitalize on substandard alternatives. The same can be said for the medical profession, but I think people are finally beginning to see how bad the medical profession is as a result of covid effective treatment suppression in favor of untested vaccines.
The wellness industry is ready to step in and deliver real cures and effective treatments - time will tell if they are successful. But at this time there is not a lot of trust left for doctors the FDA, the CDC or pharmaceutical corporations - they all lied about covid and the vaccines.
Thanks Robert. At the risk of an expected flame war, and I'll keep my head down after this, to sidestep it, there are a few things to add to this video:
Tesla Semi. 500 miles of range. Recharge once per day. Superchargers can do that. Megachargers can do that faster. A perfectly viable option for truck owners.
Battery electric vehicles: Simple and efficient. Hybrid vehicles, including the Mirai: The most complicated powertrain vehicles on the roads. Two propulsion systems to lug around, both of which will fail. Inefficient, as you have pointed out.
If the Mirai has a Prius battery, then just think how many Prius batteries have died within a year or two because of being recharged and discharged numerous time per day. If a battery can be recharged, say, 1,500 times before end of life, then it will only last for 12 months if put through 4 full cycles per day. Those four cycles equate to about 15 miles per day of battery-only driving from a 1.5 kWh battery.
Sure, the fuel cell will reduce that wear rate, but if a car is being driven for work daily, then it will likely need a new battery at about the time that the owner will need to start paying $180 per refill of H₂. Nice...
Also, (and I may be wrong about longevity here) I understand that those Carbon fibre fuel tanks degrade with time as they are cycled, just as did the hull of that mini sub this year, and that they will need replacing every 5 years (repeating information from Fully Charged and Out Of Spec Reviews), for safety reasons. How much will that job cost?
Fuel cells also rely upon being fed with pure H₂ and pure O₂ to avoid 'poisoning' of the membranes. Neither gas is entirely pure, so that will mean regular repair or replacement of the fuel cell. I gather that the fuel cell is by far the most important component in the Mirai.
In comparison, there are BEV's which have travelled for more than 1,000,000 kilometres / 620,000 miles, and maybe only needed one battery replacement, under warranty. Modern batteries are being developed which will have a life expectancy of 1 million miles or more. Most gasoline cars around the world are worn out and scrapped long before that mileage has been reached.
I'm in the UK and have never owned a car which has done more than 125,000 miles before the engine was worn out. That's in almost 50 years of riding and driving gasoline fuelled vehicles. Your mileage may vary (I've been wanting to include that phrase!) in the USA, but engines can and do wear out much more quickly than electric motors. There are electric motors around which have been run for more than a century and which are still fully original and delivering the same power that they did when new.
So, of the three main propulsion methods; fossil fuel, Hydrogen and electricity, on the grounds of total cost of ownership alone, the BEV comes out as the lowest cost to run. Hands down.
With the way that grill is designed, it almost looks like it was supposed to be a Lexus and then they changed their minds
It looks like a total after thought. I wonder if most of the development was spent for the power train and the chassis and basically everything else is just ripped from another model
This car always reminds me of the LFA
It's based on the Lexus LS, just less room inside bc of the hydrogen stuff.
The reason for the massive grilled on modern Toyotas/Lexuseses is to get people used to the massive grilles required to cool Hydrogen.
Yes…no new info here. It is described as being on the LS platform. They literally market it as a lexus line…?
I find it so refreshing that when you got to how a hydrogen fuel system works, instead of 'bluffing' your way through it, you simply said you weren't sure. A wise man knows what he does not know!
well technically hydrogen fuel cell tech is in a nutshell actual fusion tech since it is fusing oxygen with hydrogen to make water and power from that process
@@raven4k998 I didn't know that, but I genuinely love learning, so thank you.
@@raven4k998bro thats not what fusion is, that is a normal chemical reaction. fusion would be if the hydrogen was being converted into an entirely different element.
@@nexxara4572Yeah, fusion is to put together into one, fission is to split one into two. Water, H2O, is two hydrogens with an oxygen atom in the middle, so it is three distinct atoms. A chemical reaction would be 2 plus 1 starting atoms equals three atoms at end, whereas fusion would mean less atoms at the end than the beginning.
If you're actually curious about how hydrogen engines work, I'm not specifically sure about this vehicle, but generally they are combustion engines, the major difference being the fuel burned is pure hydrogen and not hydrocarbons (chemical made of carbon and hydrogen) like C8H18 (gasoline).
A short and majorly simplified rundown of combustion reactions is that a hydrocarbon + oxygen = carbon dioxide and water. So, when you burn a fuel that does not contain carbon, there is no carbon for which carbon dioxide or such other products. The only result of burning two Hydrogen gas molecules and one oxygen gas molecule will be two water molecules. This seems like an easy solution to the problem, but hydrogen gas is hard to manufacture in a completely sustainable way, and often fossil fuels are used in the production. Also, it is not as energy dense as the common fossil fuels, so it's easy to end up using more fossil fuels to create hydrogen gas than you would have if you just used the fossil fuels to begin with. Now, I'm not saying it can't be done sustainably, I'm saying it's easy to market hydrogen gas as inherently sustainably derived while not actually sustainably deriving it.
@@raven4k998I see you like to go with the “bluffing” technique instead of being honest that you don’t know
I think the badge on the back of the Mirai sums up the car pretty well: Limited.
Bwaaahaha
Every car on Earth is limited.
@@Okurka.But the Mirai is self aware
Hydrogen in cars a is stillborn obsolete technology. The only reason H2 cars are built at all is to access juicy subventions. It is a scam machine masquerading as futuristic thing.
@@shresthsonkar9207it literally says limited fuelcell
CLEAN YOUR LENSES!
You had the peak of automotive design and engineering in the video already, we could have just stopped at the Reliant Robin
Needs a sail for true polution free operation.
Aside from the Trabant I love the Robin mk3 he has. There's one for sale very close to me but I already have a Rialto. But hey 2 isn't too much!
I always imagined a Reliant Robin with solar cell engine and rooftop, aka a solar powered car.... maybe a future project?
@@davidmoralesgarcia9365 Solar cells are almost useless on cars to charge a battery. Takes forever to charge even on a sunny day.
@@pawsnpistons Sounds perfect for the Robin then.
This feels to me like a real-world or publicly available concept car, a glimpse into an alternative present. I’m curious as to how it fares in winter
I also wonder about that. I've heard there have been issues in the past with water freezing in the fuel cell stack and destroying it, but I've also heard those issues have been dealt with.
1/10th the emissions of EV. not really a concept when its already driving unlike elon's concepts. not enough charging stations and unreliable stations is still a problem EV is facing a decade later. so cant really compare something that had 10yr head start.
Agreed. This car feels like it came from a parallel universe where everything is the same, except hydrogen cars are the hot new renewable mode of transport instead of electric cars
I think you have a good point. Unless the fuel cell activates itself to heat the Lithium batteries, you are going to have a high startup loss. Other than price, replacing the Lithium Pack with Supercapactiors backed by a small high output "boost" lithium pack would be much better for colder weather. That does appear how they are using the lithium pack anyway, as a not so efficient capacitor. If you did use a supercapactior, it would also fix the regen cutting out because they are meant for peak power from zero volts to max charge and have very little resistance. You would likely need to hold the regen back, but if you had to much, you could either resistively burn it off, or dump it into the HVAC or Boost battery pack. In the winter, prevent freezing. The SCBs are meant to deliver max peak power with very low resistance, but not dense power delivery like a lithium pack. The benefit is the motor would not only be happier, but would likely preform better under regen and acceleration, giving the Cell time to spool.
@@MrPaxio/10th the emissions of EV?
How do you arrive at that conclusion?
An EV will travel three times as far on 1kw of energy than a hydrogen car, so I can't follow that statement.
And you're talking about not enough charging stations? How do thousands of charging stations compare to zero for hydrogen?
I suppose one advantage of the Mirai is you could hook a hose up to the exhaust and use it as a steam cleaner
A little expensive for a steam cleaner though....
My father has been asking me for quite some time, why we haven't seen hydrogen cars pop up.
This video might actually help me explain it to him the next time we have a deeper conversation.
Thanks a lot for the educational content!
Yeah, the #1 reason is "where are you going to get the hydrogen?" - beyond there being essentially zero fueling stations, hydrogen itself is a fickle fuel that's very hard to acquire, store, or move.
@@FuncleChuck they kind of had the same problem when cars were invented ....
someone, somewhere is going to have to build these stations where one can refuel the machine at somewhat equidistant intervals.
The bigger issue is that it needs to deliver in terms of convenience and power to current standard.
It was "easy" when that standard was horses.
The gap between what we have and new tech simply is too big and it's not just a matter of adding more refueling stations along the way.
@@NotTheStinkyCheese The problem is cost and efficiency. Building the infrastructure for gas or diesel powered cars is rather easy and cheap in comparison to an infrastructure and production of hydrogen. And is also much much more expensive then an infrastructure for millions upon millions' of BEVs.
@@FuncleChuckhydrogen isn’t that hard to get, it’s just expensive
@NotTheStinkyCheese Gas cans during the dawn of gasoline-powered cars was an entirely different thing.
..."to cope with those incredible pressures, the tanks are cylindrical [...] it'd be more space efficient if they were rectangular, but then they'd explode and that's not ideal."
I love that kind of narration, please stay with that style!
Aerospace uses spheres.
@@rogersmith7396 yeah whenever the pressure necessitates spheres.
whenever they can use a space filling tank, aka some weird shape with a bunch of right angles, they use space filling shapes.
@@rogersmith7396 Aerospace also uses liquid hydrogen, not high-pressure-but-still-a-gas hydrogen like this car.
We know cylinders never fail under pressure 😇
I just realized that your channels have the same advantage and appeal as the original Top Gear. You are clearly a car guy, very knowledgable about cars, very insightful, and very thorough but because you also have a sense of humor and comedy to your content, when something is goofy or funny, you can call it how it is. I really like that about both your channels.
Yup, I see Robert as the new top gear.
Robert for the humour and shit boxes.
Hoovie for a sobering demonstration on the costs of maintenance and questionable purchasing decisions.
Tavarish for the budget-not-a-concern stuff and completely insane purchasing decisions.
Why do people have to STILL compare everything that resembles motoring journalism , to Top Gear.
It gets sooo oldddd. Give things there own credit rather than say it's good because it replaces old Top Gear for you.
@@Emira_75 how DARE I compare a RUclipsr I enjoy to a WILDLY successful international tv show... I don't know what came over me. I am so sorry.
I feel like it's more akin to the 90s Top Gear instead of the 2000s one.
@@Bbeaucha88 it's not a problem mate it's just tedious to read. Imagine every compliment for a good pop song you ever heard was "it's like the new thriller🕺".
It's not at all similar to Top Gear.
As someone who has been actually paying attention to Hydrogen, I have to say that you know more about the reality of hydrogen than 99% of everyone else on RUclips.
Perhaps you you should pay more attention to the history of hydrogen vehicles, to know this technology, implemented a more effective way, has been suppressed by the oil lobby for decades, as they don't want to lose their revenue and control.
@@raywalker4656 the oil lobby are the ones pushing hydrogen as an alternative “green solution” to EV’s.
Indeed, If i see one more person claiming hydrogen cars could just be powered by water tanks i will lose my mind, people take facts at face value (ie: there is hydrogen in water) and can't be bothered to actually understand what that fact means
@@lithobreak3812 Yeah, exactly. Where do they reckon the energy to break that water into usable hydrogen fuel would come from? 😂
Another disadvantage of H2 cars that you missed is that, yes, it takes 5 minutes to fill up... *if* the fueling station has already re-pressurized since the last car filled up. To push that 10,000psi of hydrogen into your car, the station has to pressurize its own hydrogen at an even higher pressure, and that takes about 10 minutes to do after it's pushed hydrogen into another car (and thus lost pressure in its own tanks).
This means that if there's a line at the hydrogen station, it takes more like 15 minutes to fill up, rather than 5.
I love how you're basically the car geek version of Alec from Technology Connections. Love your channel.
- a Polestar 2 owner
I disagree. Alec is a complete sperg and a pedant and plays very fast and loose with the facts.
They have collaborated in a few videos and it's as fun as you can imagine.
do you sign all your comments like that
-lamboginey owners
They already made a collab (see the nissan figaro video to see more information)
@@someonecalledeulogio2280 And the EV road trip video.
Oh, and hydrogen leaks. It's pretty much impossible to stop hydrogen from leaking (due to it being at the top of the periodic table) from any sort of joint.
To clarify: Hydrogen atoms are small, which means that hydrogen molecules are small, which means that spaces between molecules that other molecules can't really fit through can be permeated by hydrogen.
There's a more technically accurate answer somewhere, but it probably requires a better understanding of quantum mechanics than I have.
Aren’t there also climate change issues with hydrogen leaks? Not sure of the mechanism for this, however.
Dont they use metals to prevent the leaks, the kind you are describing, in some cases? I think that is the same mechanism that reseals the Hydrogen tank if it gets punctured.
cute profile pic
Hydrogen is flammable right? And according to this thread, other a oms are also really small. So to repair it you would need to remove all the hydrogen, somehow find a micro pinhole, you can't use water to find it because water is too big to fit into the hole (that's what she said), and after all that you have to somehow repair it and hope that's to only one..
Very refreshing to see such a detailed summary of a hydrogen car ownership. Only thing I would like to add is that the lifetime of the fuel cell is to short (aprox. 10.000 hours) and the cost to replace it is to high for it to be a feasible option for larger vehicles.
Is 10,000 hours too short? if they only did 15mph as a lifetime average, that's still 150,000 miles.
The likely use case for such a car is more highway and less congested traffic and with the battery pack as a buffer, it could be double that or better.
@@drumbrakes So it has all the downsides of BEVs with none of the advantages. Great.
@@gladonos3384 How did you make that conclusion from my comment about lifespan of the fuel cell?
Watch the video, it has several EV advantages & some ICE advantages, and some downsides specific to hydrogen.
@@drumbrakes
Cost of the vehicle itself:
-ICE: Cheap(+1 Point to ICE)
-BEV: Expensive(-1 Point to BEV)
-HEV: Very expensive(-2 Points to HEV)
Fuel availability:
-ICE: Gas is easy to store & easy to transport. Gas stations are everywhere. Gas is not cheap but not expensive either(+2 Points for ICE.)
-BEV: Electricity instantly travels at a fraction of the speed of light through cheap wires. Electricity is available right at your house and while fast charges are not everywhere they are common enough and it should be easy to build more. Electricity is cheap(+4 points to BEV)
-HEV: Hydrogen is hard to store, hard to transport, impossible to find and expensive(-3 Points to HEV)
Maintenance:
-ICE: Complex but cheap to fix(-0 to ICE)
-BEV: Simple but the Battery degrades and is expensive(-0 to BEV)
-HEV: Complex, expensive & degrades(-2 to HEV)
Overall score:
-ICE: 3 Points.
-BEV: 3 Points.
-HEV: -7 Points.
-Horse: -6 Points.
@@drumbrakes 150k is less then a petrol car... which is already a low bar. An ev is 500k miles. Replacing the fuel cell is called a totalled car since it costs more to replace then buying a new one lmao. Toyota must lose crazy amounts of money on each one sold.
Every Mirai has a built-in expiration date printed inside the filler door, after which you cannot fill the car and junk it. That may be one reason the resale value of the Mirai is very low. Also, those trucks hauling around hydrogen typically carry 300kg, enough to fill 60 cars. The average gasoline tanker can fill hundreds of cars.
It's not like there's a data cable from the car, so you can ("unwisely"?) ignore that stupid sticker. But yeah, those tanks won't last forever. The cell itself, so long as the air filters are doing their job, could last decades. It's just a catalyst, so it's not be "used up". What kills them is the passages getting blocked, and/or damaged.
From what I understand there is a magic power threshold that when crossed degrades the life of the Fuel Cell. above or below that line is fine but every time you cross it it dies a little bit inside. Hence the battery and probably the weird torque maps you mentioned. Also, WA state wants to be Hydrogenerific some day.
I have heard in the past they are very sensitive to fuel contamination.
Aren't they already in pretty wide use in warehouses for things like forklifts and side-loaders?
From what I understand, yes
I was at a gas plant in Southern California recently...they were excited about expanding their hydrogen business. They already produce hydrogen for industrial use (it's pretty common for use in power generation, where it's used to cool turbine combustion temperatures).
tax subsidy grifting is always exciting lol
Isn't half of it used to make ammonia largely for fertilizer?
After listing a bunch of significant advantages of a top selling EV, he says, the Mirai "has none of that!"
Fun Fact: Hydrogen is as much as $29.99 per Kg in California right now. It would cost you over $160 to fill up the tank of the Mirai. However, most Hydrogen filling stations are running low right now so they have to limit you to half a tank or less. That will get you about 125 miles for $84 or about $0.67 per mile. An electric car can be as low as $0.03 a mile. The $15K free fuel card they give you will last less than 30K miles at the current price of Hydrogen.
Thats normal price to fill up a 50 liter gas tank in my country
What about battery replacement cost?
@@sabalthapasir594 what about them? The warranty is something like 10 years on the battery. It will be covered under warranty. You won’t care how much it costs if it needs to be replaced.
Away from places where hydrogen is produced eg Steelworks and Oil Refineries Hydrogen has no future at all in road transportation since it’s difficult to store and transport. Look at the science facts, not the salesmanship skills of the CEO.
It would be impractical for an auto company to pay for the hydrogen on a huge scale.
Hydrogen has been available for around 20 years now. It is pretty sad to see that it hasn't really advanced that much in those years. Having said that, I think hydrogen is great for large vehicles like busses and could be a real option for passenger jets as batteries are just too heavy still for that industry.
It was separated in the 18th century. It is produced as an industrial by product. NASA has used it since the early 1960s. Robert Goddard used it in the 20s.
German zepplins used it.
Ìn the UK, indeed much of Europe, hydrogen makes a lot of sense for coaches and interurban buses, but battery works fine for city work. The Yutong E12 electric city bus can achieve around 280 miles to a charge which is ample for a day of city service work. There are hydrogen buses in the UK, notably Wright's Hydroliner double decker, the first hydrogen double decker in the world. Again, the disadvantage of these is getting the hydrogen, but they can achieve 350 to 400 miles on a fill, which is similar to a diesel city bus with a fairly small fuel tank.
One place hydrogen also may work is long distance lorries which, with a two driver setup, which can cover great distance each day, aided by quick refuelling. The weight of batteries to give the long distance ability on a single charge in a full electric lorry would dramatically eat into the payload the lorry can carry.
@@rogersmith7396 I mean that use case wasn't particularly well thought out though.
@@rogersmith7396 The Zeppelins were designed to use Helium, but US wasn't cool with selling Helium to Nazis. That's why they had to use Hydrogen.
This car would make a lot of sense on an island like Japan or Hawaii. They could make their own hydrogen from electrolysis and cut down on all the shipping for bringing gasoline to the island or Oil in the case of Japan.
But other than that, the main problem with hydrogen as a fuel source is we ain't got no hydrogen.
And even in that case, you'd just be better off driving an EV.
I would argue small islands are even more perfectly served by short-range battery EVs. Hydrogen makes a little more sense in the low-density regions of a huge island like Australia, though I'm not certain local production would be feasible in all areas.
That has been Japan's plans since the 90s, thats why Toyota is so gung ho for hydrogen. They are getting back on track and will still probably end up going hydrogen I think, their main concern is being reliant on China for their energy needs.
They are slowly turning their old reactors backs online and they are going to be building a new high temperature gas reactor to specifically make Hydrogen which is more efficient than basic electrolysis.
@@MrJustinOtis I disagree. They will massively increase the load on the grid. WHO would even want to put a bunch of offshore windmills in the Hawaiian coastline?
@@instanoodles I heard there is a new color of hydrogen in Japan based on nuclear. I forget the details, but I heard it was a huge breakthrough. Probably using small scale nuclear to make the steam for steam process.
Main issue I've had with fuel cells is that the cells have a life expectancy as the cell itself is a wear product. Even worse is they use platinum in their construction so replacing them is basically the same price as an EV battery. Not that this is popularly discussed as fuel cells are uncommon outside industries and very few people have kept the cars long.
In general I've seen fuel cells have a lifespan of around 5-10 years so your fuel cell may fail before you've even finished paying it off. That would suck.
The same as battery. How much is fuelcell compared to battery?
@tommyking626 well I'm talking wear till worthless. Plus the rare materials in the battery could be recycled, if we tried, the platinum in a fuel cell is quite literally burned away.
Not like it matters anyways, it doesn't look like hydrogen has much a future at this point in the large scale. The only real advantage it has yet is fast refueling. Range for vehicles is about the same as batteries, hydrogen fuel cells take far more equipment and complexity meaning they don't really end up making lighter vehicles, the fuel cell doesn't have enough power to run the system on its own needing some stored battery power, etc. It's a cool idea, but honestly hydrogen combustion almost has a better future. I think fuel cells are really stuck to the more niche uses like space, maybe submarines, and other cases the splitting oxygen is useful.
@@tommyking626 Remember that a hydrogen car has a fuel cell that may need to be replaced, as well as a lithium battery like an EV that might need to be replaced. I've also heard that because of the high pressure, the hydrogen tanks might need to be replaced at some point. That's a lot of stuff to replace.
@Skylancer727 Personally, I feel the future for hydrogen is far more likely to end up in combustion than fuel cells. far cheaper production (for the engine vs fuel cell) thanks to pre-existing production methods and knowledge, as well as the engine not being a consumable product
@friendlysnoworb6091 It's something that sounds right on the surface, the issue is just that hydrogen is nowhere near as energy dense so hydrogen combustion makes EV range look good. Toyota did that hydrogen combustion race test and the entire rear seat was a tank and even with that only a range of 170 miles. That's the reason fuel cell is the only really talked about solution, it already has rather abysmal range, but combustion is far worse. Combustion really only makes sense for the areas storage aren't as serious an issue like cargo ships.
I think developing new technology and seeing how much you can squeeze out of it is generally a very good thing, even if the application you're trying it out on ends up being a dead end. We're learning how to use hydrogen as a power source, and that knowledge may be extremely useful for some other application that we haven't thought of yet.
yeah cause who knows where it may go in the future when fully developed it may turn out as a useable tech or it may fail but either way we will find out in time
I remember my university lecturer back in 2011 going on about how useless hydrogen is as a fuel and every single thing he's said is still true 12 years later. It's crazy that it ever got this far.
Thankfully it seems to be going away and we're no longer wasting resources on it. A couple of years ago we had 15 hydrogen fuelling stations in the UK. Today we have only three working ones. Two in Aberdeen, and one in Birmingham. And the distance between Aberdeen and Birmingham is further than the max range of the Mirai...
Hes an id**t. Get your money back. Anything NASA flies flies on hydrogen.
There are UK companies pushing hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. The one I am most familiar with is Jo Bamford's Wrightbus (Jo Bamford of the JCB Bamford family). I actually hope their work makes hydrogen more viable and we see more hydrogen stations opening up. I think hydrogen has its place that battery electric just can't fill, particularly in long distance trucking, and long distance coach work (for example, National Express, Flixbus, Megabus, and the likes), where vehicles can be on the road practically 24/7 with either multiple driver teams or well organised driver changeover points.
The way things stand, hydrogen as a concept just seems to be a way for both governments and corporations to claim 'green' credentials. Governments like to grandstand about announcing hydrogen infrastructure that will never come to pass, and *some* vehicle manufacturers like to release not-quite-there-yet hydrogen vehicles. To use crass language for a moment, it's one big circle jerk. You can go back even further to the mid-2000s where hydrogen was going to be The Next Big Thing.
If I'm not mistaken, Zack from JerryRigEverything when reviewing the Nothing phone (which is Android based) said one clever thing: they want to be compared to the iPhone (which it very much looks like) rather than the other Android phones.
Feels like Toyota wants the Mirai compared to ICE cars rather than EVs cause it sort of makes sense in that regard.
Yeah 62% efficiency is great when compared to diesel.
That makes perfect sense. Hydrogen would look way better when compared to an ICE car. But it looks absolutely pointless when compared to a BEV.
@@slandoraparalex2328 not just that but electric is absolute garbage for all but the most niche applications in CMVs. For around town stuff or local stuff where the truck is parked at night. Sure. Long haul, offroad, dump work, mountain rigs, rural rigs, rigs used in disaster response and such.....not so much. Not only are the grids tens of BILLIONS of dollars away from being able to handle the power requirments but they are trillions away in terms of power production.
Hydrogen or even diesel electric produced someplace where they have an excess of power or good solar land and sea access provide a good alterntive to pure diesel and leave these trucks much cleaner while also ensureing they have all the current pros of a modern diesel engine.
Imo the only truely viable way forward is multiple fuels. For example EVs will be city vehicles mostly and anyone who expects to do more then the RARE long haul trip or a lot of towing will use a more traditional fueled vehicle run off of stuff like hydrogen, CNG, recycled methane, diesel or gas.
Trying to hamfist EVs everywhere is going to backfire bigtime as the grid, chargeing capibilitys and power generation stands now....fix the grid, fix the power generation and fix charge times/range and a lot of the issues go away.
Also we still dont have a good recycleing and/or repair plan for these cars. Lot of EVs are ending up as basically e-waste for minor to moderate problems or when they are used up.
@@arcticfox5118The other major issues with EV are the weight of the cars/SUVs. That battery weight is a substantial issue for road condition wear and tear. Not to mention when it comes to a car crash EVs go up in flames in a way only seen in movies. Their fires are more devastating than an ICE vehicle fire while also being more difficult to put out. So much so that oftentimes they are just left to burn themselves out rather than waste so much water and energy to stop it. Then you have to factor in that an EV Sedan vs ice Sedan weight difference effects the impact of a crash with another vehicle or pedestrian. For example a small car like the Toyota Corolla can weigh 2,955 to 3,150 lbs. While the Tesla model 3 can weigh 3,862 to 4,048 lbs. That is a substantial difference. When it comes to bridges and roads they are designed with certain weight requirements. But if we went full EV especially with trucks and semi trucks that could really do damage to our infrastructure.
@@RandomMichiganGuy Why are you even comparing EVs with ICE cars on a video for a HEV?
I got mine and put 13k miles without issues (4 months). The ride is very comfortable and the incentives is why I purchased it. I’m just disappointed at how much the hydrogen cost. Luckily for me another station went online a month ago and just charges $25 per kilogram vs the $36 true zero is charging now.
Typically though I can reach the 400 mile range but I will be running the car low. I usually fill up when I put 300 miles on it and I still have about 80 miles of range left. The thing is that you need to learn how to drive the car by watching the “eco” bar it has.
I’m sure I can push the car over 400 mile range but I’d have to not use the AC. I do plan to keep the car but the price of hydrogen would have to drop to $15 to make it worth it to me.
Bjørn Nyland noticed that the car runs quite a bit less efficiently at higher speeds when the fuel cell has to work harder.
I think the fuel cell is a bit undersized for the application.
Here in the Northern countries all the hydrogen fueling stations have been closed
@@logitech4873 You have to keep the car at 65-70 mph on the freeway. The slower the better obviously, which isn’t a problem as there is always traffic and at best the speed hits 60 mph if your lucky. I have noticed if your going 80-85 it you won’t get as much range but that’s like any car.
@@Aku112811 All cars get an efficiency drop due to aerodynamic drag, but the Mirai dropped in efficiency more than expected at ~110km/h, indicating that the fuel cell itself loses efficiency when working hard.
@@logitech4873Also the faster you go the less efficient the engine is running on ICE car… sure drag has a part to play but that typically limits the cars top speed. Like in plenty of small cars that don’t have over drive gears can run nearly 4,000 rpm at 80-85 miles per hour. The engine optimal use for fuel in a small car is closer to 3,000 rpm if your lucky on highway speeds. Even in v8 cars since the motor works less the rpm’s are lower at higher speeds. That’s why the corvette can get 27 mpg on the highway even though it’s a v8 sports car.
So going back to the Mirai is there a test done to see how big of a difference in % compared to an ICE car at those speeds? I highly doubt there will be a huge spread.
A trick to maintain its range is to not a accelerate quickly to your desired speed but to gradually reach it.
12:30 Instead of trying to say the efficiency of each step, because most folks don't understand how they compound on each other, I put it this way. It takes 58kWh to make 1kg H2 from water. It also takes 12kWh to liquify 1kg of H2 because all new stations are liquid H2. After all, the compressed gas ones have too much trouble and don't hold enough. It's easier to add 58 + 12 = 70kWh to make and store 1kg of Hydrogen then trying to multiply the efficiencies at each step. Then you can drive that Mirai 70 miles on 1kg, so the end result is 1 mile per kWh. An equivalent EV gets 4 miles per kWh or 4 times more efficient. A monstrous Hummer EV gets 1.6mi/kWh.
The only reason I've herd of the miri is because James May owns the current gen which replaced the previous gen he had
And he's had to abandon it as there are no hydrogen stations, most of them in the UK have closed (EV's have won, no one was interested in Hydrogen).
I saw one drive past in London last year which was a big surprise. In contrast Porsche Taycans which are now more common here than Reliant Robins.
@@craigix No one was interested because there was no infrastructure, but there is a desire for it from consumers, but it seems the motor manufacturers don't seem to understand the problem of no infrastructure!
Me and all my friends: "Dear god, we want a plug-in all-electric 4Runner!"
The auto industry: "How about an underperforming car that you can't fuel up basically anywhere?"
It's entirely on purpose. It's so they can do the same thing that GM has done before. They make these "clean cars", they don't work all that well, are expensive, and have no infrastructure, then the public doesn't like it and they can go "see, it's not feasible, gas cars are the only reasonable way". So they can continually force the government(s) to delay their sustainable car legislation.
Btw, love your channel, cool to see you here
I could see maybe a very limited use case where excess electricity produced by renewables is used to crack water to fuel up long-distance vehicles where batteries don't really make any sense (locomotives?) but hydrogen is certainly not going to ever be a mainstream fuel for the masses.
@@wesley00042I mean if you think about it hydrogen is already the mainstream fuel - it's just inconveniently bound up with a few other elements.
@@nefariousyawn lol this is an interesting philosophy. I'm not a chemist, so I don't know if the energy in hydrocarbons come mainly from the hydrogen or from the bonds (I suspect the bonds since combustion breaks those bonds).
"I want a usable sports car that's fun to drive"
America: muscle, or truck?
Great job on the video! Thanks for making it. Your ad reads are the only ones I (almost) never skip.
To simplify, the membrane in the fuel cell repels electrons, so when a hydrogen atom makes its way across the fuel cell, it gets striped of its electron. It reacts with oxygen on the other side to make H2O. This is hard to do without an electron, so if it can pull one in, it will. If you put a conductive mesh on either side of the fuel cell and connect them, the electron travels though the wire to the other side of the fuel cell where it is needed, and of course electrons traveling though a wire, well, that's electricity!
The reaction is an oxidation reaction, in this case the oxidization of hydrogen. Like most oxidation reactions, the oxidization of hydrogen is exothermic (adds heat to the surrounding environment), so the fuel cells get hot for the same reason the Hindenburg, a hydrogen filled lighter then air aircraft, burned down in a bright fireball of death.
If you think about it, the ONLY way to fill a FCEV is to go to a filling station. You have NO other option to fill up. No one can help you if you get stranded... you have to be towed. With an EV you can ask another EV with bidirectional charging to give you some juice. Or you can ask a friend with batteries to come help you... Or even many of the companies who offer such services. Even with a petrol vehicle you can carry a bucket of fuel...
The hydrogen is created from steam reforming of coal, gas or crude oil (96% of the world H2 production) which generates more pollution than burning the fossils. It is then compressed or liquefied (losses) and is transported (losses) to a fueling station. There it is stored in liquid form at −252.8°C (losses) and needs to be turned back to steam (losses)... but for volumetric reasons in needs to be compressed to 700 bars of pressure in the vehicle (losses). The fuel cell has AT MOST 50% efficiency (huge losses) and needs frequent replacement of expensive filters and components.The fuel cell looses power over time and needs to be replaced every few years. The vehicle needs specialized and regular maintenance for safety reasons (pressure vessels).
It is only promoted and advertised because the petrol industry does not want to give up it's business model - to keep you tied to a filling station and suck your pockets empty.
Yup. It's utter foolishness for almost all use cases.
Really really great to see you again - I'm a huge fan of every video you produce (on any subject)!
always a pleasure just to watch you go on about your projects. So much energy and personality. Keep up the entertaining work.
Super interesting video. I remember as a kid growing up in DC, the federal government had a hydrogen station for fleet vehicles. That was like 15+ years ago. I never knew the details of the program, but it definitely seemed like some cool futuristic tech at the time.
There is a Mirai for sale on the west side of Cleveland Ohio, and I went 'How did you get here!?' last week.
Great timing on the video lol
I like the ad progress bar.
These are some of the only ad reads I don't skip though, though I might be biased, as I have the same cabinets (sans handles) as often appear in the FACTOR reads.
Great timing again! Thanks Robert, just like the Polestar, I saw a Mirai in the supermarket parking lot and only noticed cause this video came out the day before!
I wish people would stop referring to fuel stations as "convenient". I *hate* going to petrol stations to fill up. It's that one extra thing during the week that pushes me over the edge to exhaustion. Charging things at home is convenient. Stopping by the charger and juicing up while you do some shopping is convenient.
Robert your creativeness and segues to sponsor segments are genuinely entertaining and I actually watch them
Fuel cells also have a finite lifespan because eventually, the heat expansion in dissimilar materials causes the membranes to separate from the stacks. It's gradual which is why your friend's range decreased. Solid fuel stacks work for about 7 years, but I'm not sure which type the Mirai uses.
Really fascinating video, Rob. Thanks for it as always!
Downsides? Fuel cells can be damaged from contaminants in the incoming air. The tanks have an expiration/recertification date (usually 12 to 15 years) after which you can’t use them. Servicing costs are high out of lease and has to be done every 6 months or 6000 miles. Filling connections freeze in wet/humid areas and you have to wait 5 or so minutes for it to defrost.
I think you are right it could work for a semi or delivery truck. I am a little worried about high pressure hydrogen pressure vessels in enclosed places like tunnels though.
I think the existance of Mirai is because of two reasons:
Toyota invested a lot of money throughout history in hydrogen tech and they had nothing to show, because lets face it, this tech just isn't viable for consumer to switch from ICE.
And secondly; they needed ZEV credits. Prior to bz4X, toyota had no electric vehicles (at least not mass produced) so they had to scrable something together to hit their numbers. What a great way to package your failed investemnts into a half baked product, that makes no sense. And voila; Mirai was born. It's a ZEV afterall, just like an EV.
14:45 It doesn't make sense even in those applications: synthetic fuels would be much better since they don't need low temperatures or high pressures, so their tanks are lighter and can be made in many shapes, and they don't waste that much energy in transport and storage.
But synthetic fuel costs a lot of energy to make. It is more energy consuming than the whole hydrogen chain of compressing, transporting etc. And then when you burn it in a combustion engine, the total cost is immense.
@@salipander6570 I find it hard to believe; do you have any study on it I can look at?
Methanol for example is a more stable energy carrier and can be used both in internal combustion engines or fuel cells.
Moreover, even if the overall efficiency is the same, it's better to have the losses "concentrated" for example at the production plant or the usage point, so you may be able to reuse the excess heat for something else. If you instead have lots of places where you lose a couple of percent each time, it's not feasible to recover that energy.
i mean if you're gonna store energy chemically the most simple and efficient way to use it is electricity. production combustion engines aren't gonna as efficient as an electric motor
Nice editing touch with the status bar on top of the screen during the ad read.
I watched the whole ad just to pay respect to that.
The battery will also be necessary to get the fuel cell running - they need heating and other things. Hydrogen internal combustion is doable, as well - can you review one of those?
The problem with hydrogen combustion is burning hydrogen is only 20-25% efficient. The same amount of Hydrogen that takes this Mirai 300 miles would take a hydrogen combustion vehicle less than 100 miles. And it's a pretty terrible use of resource, but mostly the range issue.
is doable, but range will be utterly useless. Hydrogen has very low volumetric density, so you'd need about half of cars volume worth of tanks to get good range.
Hydrogen combustion is basically the same chemical process as hydrogen fuel cells (hydrogen + oxygen = water + heat), but with the added mechanical complexity of an internal combustion engine (bad).
Hydrogen combustion makes no sense - hydrogen doesn't burn as much, it loves to explode. Volvo is researching hydrogen combustion in tandem with diesel combustion, meaning that they inject hydrogen into diesel engines to improve efficiency. It's an interesting idea and I'm sure that the maritime industry is thrilled
Why bother with hydrogen combustion? If you want to burn a gas in a traditional ICE engine we got propane.
The only reason hydrogen is pushed so hard is oil companies can continue to control the distribution. If everyone starts using a solar powered bicycle that's a BIG threat to their profit model.
Yep, can't fill the fuel cell car at home, but you really can't fill a ice powered vehicle at home either.
you don't need to tho and you can always have a spare gas tank if you need it
@@alexm566otherwise known as a Jerry can? 😂
I can fill my F150 at home, not sure what your problem is.
@@joelmartin2549Do you produce its fuel at home?
@@amentco8445 no he cant but he can have a store of gas or diesel at home. you cant have a store of hydrogen at home.
The Mirai is a great looking car, but a useless one if you can't fill the tank. A Mirai taxi has been sitting near my Copenhagen hotel and not moved since I arrived on Monday.
Looking at the live map, the nearest working filling station is 315km away. Both stations in Copenhagen have been offline for "more than 24 hours"
Back when the first public test hydrogen vehicles were leased and hydrogen filling stations were built, the retail price of hydrogen was $8 per Kg. Last year the price had risen to $16 per Kg. And now it is $30 per Kg? Ouch! That means a fill-up would be $150 for 300 miles, or 50 cents per mile. Meanwhile, someone driving a Prius would pay about 10 cents per mile for gasoline, and a Tesla driver would be paying 2 to 3 cents per mile for electricity. Because of the high cost, it will never be economically competitive, even for big trucks and ships.
Love hearing your thoughts on hydrogen cars; I think you have some of the absolute best reviews for cars on the internet! Thanks for making such informative and entertaining stuff 🙏
It's almost insane the way the prices of these dipped from brand new to lightly used. Like under half of what the MSRP was when they were new.
With the current price of hydrogen not surprising
It's insane that they're selling at any price. Hydrogen is a silly way to power a car, batteries are FAR more efficient and cost effective.
@@jonc4403 It's insane that they're selling at any price. Electricity is a silly way to power a car, gasoline engines are FAR more efficient and cost effective. ( said someone 40 years ago )
@@bobroberts2371 40 years ago, we knew electric cars were coming. 40 years from now hydrogen still won't make any sense.
Hydrogen is NOT a fuel. It's a very bad battery chemistry.
I think if you include all the incentives from the manufacturer and state, price shouldn’t be too different. I’m considering getting it new if my current car blow up
Thanks for this! I have been wondering about these.
"just becaue it's not useful for everyone doesn't mean it's not useful for anyone". Great sentiment, too often forgotten.
The main use for Hydrogen will be for the industrial manufacture of "clean" steel, ammonia and fertilisers.
Exactly!
There is a reason that a large percentage of Hydrogen filling stations are usually out of hydrogen. To fill a Mirai takes 5kg of hydrogen but a Semi hydrogen transporter can only carry 600kg of hydrogen in its pressurized tanks, so the stations run out of hydrogen really quickly unless they get daily deliveries. The Semi's that transport the hydrogen don't run on hydrogen but if they did they would need 50kg tanks to get the sort of range you would get from a diesel powered unit. If a transport depot only gets 12 fills from each hydrogen delivery I can't see hydrogen being the solution for large vehicles like Semi's. An exchangeable battery would look to be the more likely solution given it's much lower energy cost over hydrogen.
I love these videos. I'm not complaining about getting regular uploads from you. But, if / when you have time, I miss Under Dunn a lot. Your woodworking videos are also amazing (and to me as not super a car guy) way more personally relevant. That said, I do think some day you're going to get me into cars with these videos.
There are a dozen hurdles to getting hydrogen to work large scale for transportation. Many of them can be ignored if you are willing for it to be very expensive and incredibly inefficient. But the one hurdle you can't ignore is that there is not enough platinum and palladium in the world to produce enough fuel cells to replace the internal combustion engine.
The best use cases for hydrogen are in de-carbonizing the production of steel and fertilizer. Not for energy.
I'm glad Robert also spams the 30 second button instead of simply pressing the 2 button
That kind of casual relatability cannot be faked
Fun Fact: The 182 HP Toyota Mirai(4,335 lbs) weighs almost 300 lbs more than a 500+ HP Tesla Model 3 Performance(4,048 lbs). The Mirai is only 100 lbs lighter than the 800 HP Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat Redeye(4,430 lbs). The Toyota Mirai is about the least fun car you could possibly imagine.
I'd argue that a car that slow is unsafe. Sometimes highway entry ramps are really short and I've been in a few cars that couldn't even catch up with the highway traffic in time.
Your comments about the ownership downsides at the end of the video are all extremely valid, but, many of them could be solved with scale and investment. I'm not blind to some of the other shortcomings they have against Battery EVs but I'm also not going to pretend I don't secretly wish the world was championing this technology instead. The efficiency issues might be true compared to battery EVs but when you could set up massive off-shore wind, wave or tidal stations to generate hydrogen from the abundant available water, and then just pipe it back to shore, the problems can quickly be solved. All of this is all totally doable within our current technology!
You are literally the only one youtuber that I do not skip the ad. No one can present something in a way that I actually think I need it. But nonetheless your videos as always are wonderful. That´s what I´m looking for. Being entertained by someone who could be my friend, as if I had friends. Wait, I could be the one friend you recommended to Factor. Sadly I´m not. Cheers!
"Complex and silly" pretty much sums it up. Why is Toyota so resistant to building pure BEVs?
I think part of it is there is a lot of their home market where the ability to charge at home is limited. I've got that issue in the UK, the only place I could charge a BEV is at a rapid charger, and well, doing that twice a week isn't going to do the battery much good according to the makers.
Because they missed the train. They heavily invested in hybrids and hydrogen in the past, thinking this will be go to tehnology in the coming decades, but EVs became viable very quick and they didn't adapt. It's actually true for all japanese auto industry; none of the big brands have anything serious to offer in terms of EVs.
@@hojnikb I will say the Nissan Leaf is decent and a few years back was the majority of the EVs on the road. My 2016 Leaf is still very nice to drive, albeit for short trips. Otherwise, you’re right. Where is Honda in BEV market, for instance?!?
@@torchris1 Yeah, Nissan is an outlier here, but that's likely due to connection with renault and MB.
Great video, it explained the whole "hydrogen vs battery" shindig really well. I fully agree with you on hydrogen being part of the future, despite it being an objectively crappy choice for personal transport.
It’s not even that good for public transport either. After all, both buses and trains can be made to use overhead electric wires for power. So why bother with converting electricity to hydrogen and then back to electricity again?
It is good for long haul trucking and intercity bus lines.
I saw one of these at a Toyota expo. The salesman descirbed it as a "true limousine"
Later in the expo, when we figured out that literally anyone over 5,7 bangs their head on the roof in the back we were told it was "more of a driver and passenger experience"
That said it's a pretty cool car, but feels more like a concept car
You should have shown the trunk of thank thing. It's tiny. Filling hydrogen can be relatively quick but if you are on a one outlet station and someone fills up just right before you, repressurizing can take ages. Filling to 100% can be a issue too. 85 to 90 is more likely.
And those fuel cells don't least for ever. Even if, those gastanks need strict maintenance. Crash? Better switch them! Battery? It's tiny and constantly charged / decharged. Not good at all
Id buy a hydrogen car before I'd buy a electric one
I agree
How long does it take for a full charge of hydrogen to leak out, as hydrogen likes to do. A month, two? A year?
If it's in good condition - never... But yes, leaking & hydrogen are very much bedfellows..... Liquid h2 on the other hand.... that has to be vented off as it warms up, which is why (if you follow the in-video link to Engineering Explained's video on the liquid H2 powered BMW V12) liquid h2 vehicles are even fewer and further between than high pressure H2 powered vehicles! (in case you don't go to the linked video - A full tank of liquid H2 in the BMW will boil off in 12 days.... and you're not allowed to park it underground!
@@theelectricmonk3909 Thank you. Excellent reply.
probably a lot slower than an EV. you have to keep charging those things even when you are not using them.
@@neeneko No, you don't.
@@theelectricmonk3909 yeah, you do. Try leaving an EV in your driveway for a month and see if it still has any juice left.
Random fact, Germany has 86 hydrogen fuel stations... and is a lot smaller than the us....
Yes it's more cost effective since it's a smaller physically smaller country.
I did some research before hand about hydrogen fuel and im no bachelor degree holder of engineering however you pretty much reached the same conclusion as I did but I have an extra thought and that, it can serve as storage for excess energy production.
I really love the technology, it's so cool but also impressive, with the energy density of Hydrogen
Sadly, the only Hydrogen filling station near me has been gone for a long time, otherwise it would be an option for my next car
Where?
@@Channel--Ai Western Norway
Drive electric, its a million times better
Yeah nah, full electric is not for me@@casperhansen826
It's kinda interesting that there are so few Hydrogen stations in the US and that it is so expensive. Over here in Europe we currently have 60 Stations that operate at 350 bar, with 74 additional ones currently being built and 161 that use 700 bar with 47 additional ones being built. So a total of 221 active stations and 121 being built and the average price for a KG of Hydrogen over here is between 10-14 Euros.
Because big oil is subsidizing them in a last ditch effort to get eco-minded people to buy into their petroleum-derived products. 96% of your hydrogen is grey. The new green hydrogen mandates being passed currently allow the (electric) energy companies to sink 14% of their future outputs into green hydrogen, which, with all the inefficiencies, means they get to charge you (or your government via subsidies) extra and make even more money from hydrogen cars than they would with just electric cars. Try being more cynical.. nobody is developing this technology for altruistic reasons. It's all about creating a new dependent energy market.
Yeah but you weirdos don't like being last at every thing like we do. We love looking stupid and backwards. Think of us as the USSR with better clothes.
While that's cool, I bet there are more petrol stations in one large European city than hydrogen stations across all of Europe. Not trying to be a jerk, just saying it's a very small first step if complete replacement of existing ICE vehicles is the goal.
Doesn’t matter how many hydrogen charging stations there is, when all the hydrogen is steam methane reformed from natural gas. There is an order of magnitude more natural gas charging stations, and natural gas vehicles, which can also use biogas. In a utopian future where there is an abundance of electricity and electrolyzers have become dirt cheap, while natural gas resources have been drained and biogas have become scarce, there might be a market for hydrogen fuel cell powered personal vehicles..
I live in Europe. The closest hydrogen filling station to me is about 670 km away, which includes a 2 hour ferry. Very useful.
Your channel was suggested to me by YT, and I'm delighted. You have a new sub.
I am very very pleased with my Mirai. The only thing that is disappointing is the lack of fuel cell stations infrastructure. If the infrastructure existed, my feeling are fcevs will far surpass battery evs. Distance travel, 5 min filling time, no Li mining pollution, lack of stress on the our electric grid, can support 1st, 2nd, & 3rd worlds.
I really don't care if I can hit 60 mph in 9sec or 12sec. The only that is really important is to save our planet (our home)
Well if the goal is green hydrogen, then it will actually put roughly 4 times more stress in the electrical grid per mile driven than EV’s would, just from making the hydrogen. Otherwise you’d have to make the hydrogen from fossil fuels which is dirtier.
I would have thought the lack of cargo and passenger space in the mirai or the expiration date printed on the fuel cap would have been equally disappointing.
I wouldn’t bet on much more range tho, whilst battery chemistry has a long way to go in terms of refinement. Fuel cells are remarkably close to their peak hypothetical efficiency. The limit to range then is how much fuel you can carry. Unfortunately, whilst hydrogen is light weight, it does take up an extraordinary amount of volume. The reason for the lack of cargo and passenger space in the Mirai, despite being bigger than a Camry, is because all the same is being taken up by fuel tank storage. You can’t fit more fuel tanks on there to go further. This is opposite to EV’s which have more space than even ICE cars. And they’re a lot cheaper to charge than ICE or hydrogen are to refill.
But if you’re happy with your purchase, who is anyone to say otherwise. If you love it, do you and own it. The only way we find out what works best is if people give it a go.
@@davidfong320 If your primary goal is to save the planet, then you need to realize that cars aren't the solution to begin with. What we really need is walkable cities, and strong public transport. Cars are very inefficient when compared to buses or trains, and the fact that they're straight up necessary to get around in some parts of the world is a tragedy.
Beyond that we need to strongly reduce consumerism, and maybe entirely shut down the meat industry.
yo, i work right next to an eastcoast filling station in Massachusetts so there are a handfull on the east coast. if you have any questions let me know i got a few good stories about it and once the pandemic hit it seems toyota abandoned it and i havent seen a car show up for it in years. would you like to hear the story where t shot a red 20 foot fireball into the air and i almost shit myself
Tbh, the Mirai is a really good looking car, its sad that its being held back because of its powertrain…
💯
I love your review! You bring out good points with you great sence of humour. Thanks for the video, keep it up!
Just a point that everyone in the US/EU seems to never hear about: we have a proven concept in Brazil with biofuel (from sugarcane) to Hydrogen cycle that is carbon negative. Tests are being conducted with a standard Mirai to evaluate efficiency.
Thanks for putting this together. I did not understand why hydrogen was considered as a fuel source. Now that you have explained the various production methods and the energy losses at each stage, I am more confident in my position that it doesn’t make sense.
As he stated it makes sense for big applications, like OTR trucks, trains, and planes, where heavy large batteries simply do not work for their application. And given how much issue commercial companies are having getting 4+MW service from their utilities, hydrogen trucks may become a necessity to maintain the trucking industry.
@@theinsanegamergeek The plant construction industry too is a gigantic market that EV's are currently not best suited for, JCB have recently shown off a Hydrogen plant engine they're been working on for just such a reason..
I always wanted to ride a high pressure tank ready for an accident to happen and increase the kaboom factor 1000 folds.
Honestly I would prefer to rupture a (secured) hydrogen tank over a gasoline tank. If a hydrogen tank ruptures, its contents dissipate and fall below its lower flammability concentration very quickly. It doesn't pool on the ground and linger like gasoline does when a gasoline tank ruptures.
I just shopped this car for my dad, and I gotta say... as a consumer, the biggest draw of this car is that you can get a silent lexus quality pre-owned for sub-$20k. He doesn't have a home charger but has a fuel station nearby, and he never travels outside the state anyways.
We cross-shopped with an Accord Hybrid, but we're banking on the likelihood that hydrogen cost will eventually come down as gasoline goes up.
We'll have to see about the long-term reliability, but my old man is a "build quality" type of guy so he's very excited.
Another reason for hydrogen cars is the reason toyota is doing it. Japan currently has to buy all their energy from other countries because the land isn't on a huge oil or coal depot and solar isn't enough to power an entire country especially if that country uses EVs. So as a potential solution they've decided invest highly in hydrogen, and part of that effort is being made by toyota. The reason they chose hydrogen is because of this stuff that's found in the oceans surrounding japan called like hot salt or something I can't remember but in salt water is makes lots of hydrogen so they want to create that and have hydrogen cars, and potentially enough hydrogen to sell to other countries and make a profit on energy. It's pretty cool and I'd like to see hydrogen become a standard energy source.
To be fair, that short recharge time for heavy trucks makes a lot of sense. It would save on weight, since batteries are really heavy and trucks are heavy enough as it is. Add to that the fact that long distances and timeliness is important in trucking, and yeah, that hydrogen fuel cell concept truck sounds more ideal.
Long distance trucking is such a strange niche for me, i always think about if it would be such a big thing, or a thing at all in a place with good rail networks.
There's nothing stopping the Edison Motors upcoming diesel electric semi from using a hydrogen fuel cell one day. It's basically a self-charging electric truck.
Or you can put them on a catenary as has been done in Germany. Easy peasy.
@@crackedemerald4930merica has a great cargo rail network, and Europe has good rail and long distance trucking is still a major part of the logistics networks of both places.
You didn’t mention how explode-y it is compared to an internal combustion car. I remember that being a big factor when these care were being developed.
I mean, the batteries on Teslas, Lucids and other high-power EVs are pretty dangerous if they explode or catch fire too. And even as someone born in 2000 I've heard of the firebomby Ford Pinto 😢. So every one of these propulsion systems is potentially dangerous.
If it does work in cold climates, it could be good in those regions. Where I live it gets to -40 in winter which for an EV means you're losing up to 40% of your range due to the cold. Which is bad, because in places where it gets to -40 in winter, there are sometimes no places to charge your car for hundreds of kilometres either.
" But I could also duct tape a Dyson to the roof of a Tesla and claim the same thing.."
😂😂😂😂😂
There are so many of these out in my city. The older generations weren't fun to look at.
What city?
When an EV shows up here they close the stores and have a parade. Well there are golf carts.
I always liked fuel cells since I build one as a school project and got a good grade for it. Would love to see a teardown!
Y'know, that takes some skill to build a fuel cell for a school project.
@@jwalster9412 No it was very easy. It was basically just a U-shaped glass tube filled with water and two electodes. I made the membrane/seperator from gelatin. The hydrogen/oxygen was just "bubbled" over the electrodes. You can build the whole thing in a few hours from basic items. It produces just enough power to light up a very small lamp. Good learning tho!
I think you hit the nail on the head when you discussed hydrogen cells as a range extender. That was one of my favourite parts about Hyundai's N Vision 74 concept.
one other thing is that lithium and cobalt used in batteries are limited resources that we are quickly depleting... a chronic problem with green energy is that much of the time green energy sources will be at high output while the electric grid is at low demand and that energy could be stored in batteries if we had the battery technology and infrastructure to store that energy (which would also make the limited supply of lithium and cobalt even worse btw) or an alternative is to use that excess energy to electrolize water and generate hydrogen and then use that hydrogen to power cars and trucks which just makes sense. all that's missing is the economies of scale to make it affordable.
Cobalt free batteries are readily available and already heavily used in stationary applications and even EVs. Look up lithium iron phosphate. Lithium availability is not a concern at all, just the refining capacity.
A bit off topic from this video, but at one point you mentioned Teslas having great software. I've heard almost the opposite, specially when comparing to android auto (not android automotive). Main things I've heard is tesla is a bit clunky when it comes to environmental settings (heat and ac), some stuff is on the display that shouldn't be (wipers), and not great music due to limited compatibility with music streaming platform, and not great bluetooth integration, granted most of these I heard for a while ago it's possible things have changed. That's one of the things steering me away from tesla, and to something else with android auto instead, there are other factors, but that's one of them. What are your experiences with that?
So far I've had this rental Tesla for all of a day, so I can't speak to it much, but I'm super impressed so far. I've had more pleasant surprises than annoyances so far. For instance, it has adaptive blinkers! I had no idea that was a thing. And it's unbelievably efficient (5mi/kWh). All while still having more power than enough power
@@agingwheels sounds like they've probably fixed the software issues then. Good to know, thank you!
@@agingwheels i have had model 3 for four years now and sometims after updates choices for sotware are so stypid it feel like software enginers that made the software dosent have a driving license or never even been in a car. example those wiper controls took years to get adjustment from screen only to the left scroll wheel (and they still dont have adjustible interimten setting). and then ohter one in last winter automatic climate setting was constanly using defogger even when not needet freesing your legs (and auto setting was good before in 2019-2021 winters).
@@aleksisoukkala I have a long range model 3 and I've found the voice controls are the best for the wipers because the regular controls suck... and that's really it as far as my complaints. Well, except the wipers just being trash to begin with and not cleaning the windshield all that well.
4 mi/kwh after 20k miles in about 2.5 years of ownership.
10,000 PSI! wow! Have to wonder just how strong they are in an accident
Scuba tanks can be 5000 psi. No doubt specialty ones higher.
Thanks, was curious about these motors
I leased a Honda Clarity fuel-cell sedan for three years (2017-2020). The actual vehicle was great, and not slow at all. It was (and is) the hydrogen supply chain that is still problematic. But during the three years I had the car I was able to drive it from the SF Bay area to LA and back. Usually got 250+ miles on a tank with city driving, and 300+ on highway (up to Sonoma). Since I was unable to charge an electric vehicle at home, the quick fill-ups at the hydrogen stations worked out great for me. Except for the three months when all the SF Bay area stations were down because the supply-chain had a single-point of failure (Honda supplied rental car during that down-time). I would have re-upped on another fuel call vehicle, but the pandemic negated the need for commuting. Also, back then the cost per unit was $16 for fuel (but the lease came with $15k/3 years of fuel, so I never paid extra).
I think there are also hydrogen stations in New Jersey, at least used to be a few years back...
I heard this too, but nothing popped up on any of the fueling station maps I looked at. They might be at college or other places where they're not technically publicly available
The reason why Toyota is focusing on hybrids and hydrogen rather than BEVs is due to global geopolitics & supply issues. To get to the point that many world governments want us to be with electric vehicles requires a massive increase in material resource consumption that cannot be realistically achieved - and that's before considering that most of those resources come from China and Russia. BEVs seem great, but they are short-sighted.
Is anyone looking at flow cell powered cars? Flow cells are batteries where the, um, charged-ness of the battery is a liquid. You can keep it in tanks. You pump the charged liquid into the actual works of the battery, extract the energy, and store the uncharged liquid in another tank. Then if electricity becomes available you can pump it back again to charge the liquid. The advantage is that tanks are really, really cheap. You can add more energy storage by just adding another tank. I know they're being looked at for grid storage, for this very reason. But this also seems ideal for cars; a system where you can charge your car from electricity _or_ by filling up at a fuelling station seems ideal.
The downside is that the energy density isn't high and the chemistry isn't exotic. I've heard of one flow cell battery chemistry where the liquid solidifies at room temperature. The good news is that you can melt it again and the charge remains, making it _even easier_ to handle, but for a car it's really what you want. But that was years ago and I'm sure the technology has moved on since then.