As I exercise longer and faster, my VO2max reduces. If I get fit enough, my VO2max could go to zero! 🙂 Excellent comprehensive video! I'm just not interested enough in making adjustments in order to get my VO2max to display a number that I like.
@@processmyrun6559 I purchase a desk top app of theirs back in 2004/5 - they only started in 2000. In knew Eddie Fletcher a leadin sports scientist and coach in the UK - he trains top Soccer and Rugby teams as well as world class rowere www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/20396213/suunto-t6c-running-guide I used a suunto in those days which you could connect - but laterused a Garmin but had to upload data files
Excellent video. I know this is a running channel, but the cross-trainers and triathletes out there would probably love to see another one on Garmin's VO2 max estimate for cycling.
Great vid! I have to watch it again slowly. After completing my half-marathon goal race I started MAF training. In the first 3 weeks of MAF, my VO2 max fell 4 mL/(kg/min) and I do not believe I would have lost that much fitness. The change is most likely because of what you said about how it is calculated by Firstbeat!
Thanks, that's a very informative video. When I did MAF, my estimated VO2max suffered. Now, in marathon training that is roughly 80/20 it started to recover. As I'm getting closer to race day and increase the amount of running in Z3 and 4, it's gone up even more. So thank you for your explanation why that may be the case. I found the section on the HR to speed curve very interesting. I should do that once, too. I don't have access to a treadmill but I guess I could do that on a track provided I stick to the lap times for each pace. So your protocol is 3 minutes for each interval. I could calculate how far I have to run in each of the 3 min segments on the track. I'm quite good at pacing myself, e.g. when I want to run just under 4:30 min/km, my lap times on the track are usually 4:26-29. I'm just not sure if my pace perception is as good as that across all paces I test. I guess I'll find out when I'll do it.
Hi Edith. I wonder if we did "talk" on the Extramilist forum already. Anyway, to comment on the 3 mns protocol, I think it was a mistake. It was very hard and I stopped at a speed that was below my Vo2max speed (reaching highest HR ever, so probably not because of "laziness"). Also, in the lab, I'm pretty sure they use shorter segments. 3mns might be reserved to cycling protocols. To sum up: you might want to use shorter segments (please share any interesting results :) ). And I did it on the road - surprisingly easy to achieve a pace
You do zone 2 training to improve the fat metabolism and also increase your endurance at high intensities. Just continue incorporating more zone 2 training and your hr at that zone should be a lot more stable
Hope you enjoyed and learned something from this video. Please ask questions if something was not clear. Also feel free to challenge the maths behind the fat fueling analysis.
I'm not so sure. I've felt myself get fitter but done the same run/hr/speed zone 2, but my heart rate drops quicker when i scale back from zone 3. I think this is noticed by Garmin as it's occurred around the same time as a score increase.
According to the patent, they adjust for grade (positive or negative slope). However,, they use a very generic formula and based on other researches, it becomes inaccurate as the grade increase (say 5% or more). Also, downhill is generally slight less efficient than uphill, so I would say that downhills impact negatively the claculation.
@@brunoj6146 Then I am puzzled as I would assume that the cycling one is less sensitive (as it measures the power output, which alrady includes elevation, terrain etc.). If you're training outdoor, maybe wind and temperature could impact the HR/Power relationship and partly explain your big variations. Or it has not much to do with the algorithm and your fitness really vary a lot (you might know thanks to lab tests or simply time trials)
@@processmyrun6559 It varies slowly over the season, I don’t think it is due to weather conditions. My VO2max measured in lab was 62, 10 years ago but my fitness level is much better now. Then a value around 60 seems realistic. It has recently increased from 55 to 60 after a couple of long rides but did not improve this winter despite an intense high intensity training plan over 12 weeks. I will see how it goes in the coming weeks with cyclosportives season starting at last. By the way, what do you think about the recovery indicator which is displayed a couple of min after beginning a session?
@@brunoj6146 In any case you have a very good level. I bet you compete well in regional races. I completely ignore the form level given by Garmin at the start of a session (e.g +6). In my experience, it only correlates weakly with the rest of the run. For instance I might start with -4 but after a good and long warm up I can do a satisfying HIIT workout. I also completely discard the recovery time suggested by Garmin at the end (e.g recover for 28 hours). And so is the case for status indicator ("unproductive" etc.) as it is the big picture of the training structure that matters. The training load chart offers more value by showing where your 7 day rolling load fall compared to your fitness level and training history. By the way, it seems my Vo2max is higher when my load is close to the upper end of the optimal training range, but I need to extract the data to confirm this conjecture.
My guess is that is not too far off but that would depends on how good you are at short vs long distances. In my case, the shorter the better (top 91% at 400m, 77% 1000m, 71% mile, 67% 3km, 66% 5km, 63% 10km, 55% HM, 40% Marathon - using runbundle.com/tools/age-grading-calculator). So if I use the Cooper test formula ((distance-504.9)/44.73, I get a higher estimate than Garmin's (56 vs 50ish). That's because Cooper is limited to testing an energy system that serves me well. Garmin also looks at my aerobic/fat zones and "understand" that I need to work on them.
Hi Philippe, can I ask what you used to make this video please? The pen writing edit would be great for some of my ‘how to’ videos. Hope you don’t mind sharing please. Thanks, Stevo.
In the Firstbeat article that was posted on the Extramilest page... it seems like the HR Max that is used by Garmin to calculate the VO2 Max is computed from the standard 220 formula, not what we a user inputs into the system as their HR max. Do you know if this true? This would mean that they would always under calculate your VO2 max because you personally have such a high HR MAX even if you adjust your HR MAX in the settings.
I think they use the 220 formula as a starting point but the user settings would take precedence, if populated. Indeed, I had the impression that my vo2 max increased a couple days after I adjusted the settings (from 202 to 206). And the estimate is fairly accurate for me, in the sense that it matches by PBs fairly well. To be sure, I should change the settings by say 40 bpm and check the impact, but I prefer to keep my Vo2max as fair as possible as I like to see what training produces the best results. NB. I would also suspect that they adjust the calculated/inputted max HR if they see that a higher HR is recorded several times during some runs.
Excellent question! Based on the algo, it should change a lot (10kph at 100bpm -> 66 or 73 vo2max if max is at 190 or 210), but indeed, when I changed mine by 4bpm it did not change my vo2max straight away. I can only offer some guesses: maybe they smooth the updates of their estimates (i.e. it will take a few runs to take effect), or maybe they adjust the user inputted max by checking with HR readings at higher speeds. If I was ready to mess with my stats, I would set a max of 300 to see what would happen over the next couple weeks :)
Not at all. Zones are not mentioned in Firstbeat's patent. They are only useful for you to know how much time you spend in which. They are not used to compute vo2max, LT HR, training status etc
My Garmin measures VO2 only in the first 0.65miles of a run like clockwork. No matter what I do the rest of the time, only the first few minutes matter. I end up running fast the first few minutes because I got sick of VO2 dropping a point every slow run and taking 5 fast runs to recover a point. Is that normal?
Hi. I can only try and answer based on their patent, which is general and doesn't descrive the exact details. In this, they never speak about the first 0.65 miles (or any distance). They do say they give more weight to consistent segments. Maybe your first 0.65 miles are very constistently having the same HR/Speed ratio, probably fairly high (meaning your HR is fairly high when you run slow in the warm up phases). If you feel like doing some testing, you could not record your first 0.65 miles (or record them separately) and see if that changes anything.
In my case it's different, when I first started using my garmin , I began with runs in zone 3 and 4 mostly and my vo2max kept getting better (went from 52 to 56 in 3 weeks lol). Then, I did a test run and it lowered to 55. Do you think that it's related with my technique? lol, maybe I am better at a comfortable pace
Hi Jose. Perfectly possible indeed. Also note that my HR vs speed ratio (or rather, its gradient) is also better for me at around zone 4 (not 5). It is at low zone 2 that things get bad for me (ie. to increase by 1kph, I need a lot of additional bpm)
Hehe i always have 43 did get 45 once by go slower and some bullshit hehehe i never listen to what it recommend I do , I do always what I want , and the watch I just stuck in 43 😂 .
A great answer for us Garmin watch runners who wondered about this!
As I exercise longer and faster, my VO2max reduces. If I get fit enough, my VO2max could go to zero! 🙂 Excellent comprehensive video! I'm just not interested enough in making adjustments in order to get my VO2max to display a number that I like.
all this epic ochestrated music for a vo2max video
lmao its motivating me to go out and run.. and I just woke up
What a great explanation - clearest explanation I have ever seen. I have been using First Beat since they were a start up company. Great Job !
Thanks a lot! You're almost motivating me to do a video about their LT HR detection mechanism ;) How come you know them since a start up?
@@processmyrun6559 I purchase a desk top app of theirs back in 2004/5 - they only started in 2000. In knew Eddie Fletcher a leadin sports scientist and coach in the UK - he trains top Soccer and Rugby teams as well as world class rowere www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/20396213/suunto-t6c-running-guide
I used a suunto in those days which you could connect - but laterused a Garmin but had to upload data files
Excellent video. I know this is a running channel, but the cross-trainers and triathletes out there would probably love to see another one on Garmin's VO2 max estimate for cycling.
Great vid! I have to watch it again slowly. After completing my half-marathon goal race I started MAF training. In the first 3 weeks of MAF, my VO2 max fell 4 mL/(kg/min) and I do not believe I would have lost that much fitness. The change is most likely because of what you said about how it is calculated by Firstbeat!
Thanks, that's a very informative video. When I did MAF, my estimated VO2max suffered. Now, in marathon training that is roughly 80/20 it started to recover. As I'm getting closer to race day and increase the amount of running in Z3 and 4, it's gone up even more. So thank you for your explanation why that may be the case.
I found the section on the HR to speed curve very interesting. I should do that once, too. I don't have access to a treadmill but I guess I could do that on a track provided I stick to the lap times for each pace. So your protocol is 3 minutes for each interval. I could calculate how far I have to run in each of the 3 min segments on the track. I'm quite good at pacing myself, e.g. when I want to run just under 4:30 min/km, my lap times on the track are usually 4:26-29. I'm just not sure if my pace perception is as good as that across all paces I test. I guess I'll find out when I'll do it.
Hi Edith. I wonder if we did "talk" on the Extramilist forum already. Anyway, to comment on the 3 mns protocol, I think it was a mistake. It was very hard and I stopped at a speed that was below my Vo2max speed (reaching highest HR ever, so probably not because of "laziness"). Also, in the lab, I'm pretty sure they use shorter segments. 3mns might be reserved to cycling protocols. To sum up: you might want to use shorter segments (please share any interesting results :) ). And I did it on the road - surprisingly easy to achieve a pace
You do zone 2 training to improve the fat metabolism and also increase your endurance at high intensities. Just continue incorporating more zone 2 training and your hr at that zone should be a lot more stable
Yes, when I was super heavy on zone1/2 I improved a lot there (and higher speed as well :) )
Hope you enjoyed and learned something from this video. Please ask questions if something was not clear. Also feel free to challenge the maths behind the fat fueling analysis.
I'm not so sure. I've felt myself get fitter but done the same run/hr/speed zone 2, but my heart rate drops quicker when i scale back from zone 3. I think this is noticed by Garmin as it's occurred around the same time as a score increase.
This was amazing
Thank you so much :)
Very informative!
thanks for your feedback!
My wife's Fenix 7 generated vo2max updates inside on elliptical and stairmaster machines, mine does not, very confusing.
This video is very useful to me. Thx for sharing!
Thank you very much for your feedback. Knowing that my videos help at least one person is what motivates me!
@@processmyrun6559 I find that u hv other videos which looks interesting, will go through them later
I think my VO2 max increased just from the music for this video on.... explanation of mathematical algorithms.
Does running hills negatively impact the Garmin VO2 Max calculation?
According to the patent, they adjust for grade (positive or negative slope). However,, they use a very generic formula and based on other researches, it becomes inaccurate as the grade increase (say 5% or more). Also, downhill is generally slight less efficient than uphill, so I would say that downhills impact negatively the claculation.
Very interesting. I am not running just cycling and my VO2max can vary from 53 to 73 over the year.
That's a surprisingly huge range. Is it your running or cycling vo2 max?
@@processmyrun6559 cycling. I haven’t run for 1,5 year. I train 5 days a week in cycling following a training plan.
@@brunoj6146 Then I am puzzled as I would assume that the cycling one is less sensitive (as it measures the power output, which alrady includes elevation, terrain etc.). If you're training outdoor, maybe wind and temperature could impact the HR/Power relationship and partly explain your big variations. Or it has not much to do with the algorithm and your fitness really vary a lot (you might know thanks to lab tests or simply time trials)
@@processmyrun6559 It varies slowly over the season, I don’t think it is due to weather conditions. My VO2max measured in lab was 62, 10 years ago but my fitness level is much better now. Then a value around 60 seems realistic. It has recently increased from 55 to 60 after a couple of long rides but did not improve this winter despite an intense high intensity training plan over 12 weeks. I will see how it goes in the coming weeks with cyclosportives season starting at last. By the way, what do you think about the recovery indicator which is displayed a couple of min after beginning a session?
@@brunoj6146 In any case you have a very good level. I bet you compete well in regional races. I completely ignore the form level given by Garmin at the start of a session (e.g +6). In my experience, it only correlates weakly with the rest of the run. For instance I might start with -4 but after a good and long warm up I can do a satisfying HIIT workout. I also completely discard the recovery time suggested by Garmin at the end (e.g recover for 28 hours). And so is the case for status indicator ("unproductive" etc.) as it is the big picture of the training structure that matters. The training load chart offers more value by showing where your 7 day rolling load fall compared to your fitness level and training history. By the way, it seems my Vo2max is higher when my load is close to the upper end of the optimal training range, but I need to extract the data to confirm this conjecture.
Have you compared that to a normal coopertest?
My guess is that is not too far off but that would depends on how good you are at short vs long distances. In my case, the shorter the better (top 91% at 400m, 77% 1000m, 71% mile, 67% 3km, 66% 5km, 63% 10km, 55% HM, 40% Marathon - using runbundle.com/tools/age-grading-calculator). So if I use the Cooper test formula ((distance-504.9)/44.73, I get a higher estimate than Garmin's (56 vs 50ish). That's because Cooper is limited to testing an energy system that serves me well. Garmin also looks at my aerobic/fat zones and "understand" that I need to work on them.
Hi Philippe, can I ask what you used to make this video please? The pen writing edit would be great for some of my ‘how to’ videos. Hope you don’t mind sharing please. Thanks, Stevo.
The short answer is VideoScribe. I will send you a message for more details
@@processmyrun6559 that would be great, thank you.
In the Firstbeat article that was posted on the Extramilest page... it seems like the HR Max that is used by Garmin to calculate the VO2 Max is computed from the standard 220 formula, not what we a user inputs into the system as their HR max. Do you know if this true? This would mean that they would always under calculate your VO2 max because you personally have such a high HR MAX even if you adjust your HR MAX in the settings.
I think they use the 220 formula as a starting point but the user settings would take precedence, if populated. Indeed, I had the impression that my vo2 max increased a couple days after I adjusted the settings (from 202 to 206). And the estimate is fairly accurate for me, in the sense that it matches by PBs fairly well. To be sure, I should change the settings by say 40 bpm and check the impact, but I prefer to keep my Vo2max as fair as possible as I like to see what training produces the best results. NB. I would also suspect that they adjust the calculated/inputted max HR if they see that a higher HR is recorded several times during some runs.
How much of an effect do you think the max heart rate has? I changed between 190, 210 and 195, didn’t see any impact
Excellent question! Based on the algo, it should change a lot (10kph at 100bpm -> 66 or 73 vo2max if max is at 190 or 210), but indeed, when I changed mine by 4bpm it did not change my vo2max straight away. I can only offer some guesses: maybe they smooth the updates of their estimates (i.e. it will take a few runs to take effect), or maybe they adjust the user inputted max by checking with HR readings at higher speeds. If I was ready to mess with my stats, I would set a max of 300 to see what would happen over the next couple weeks :)
Two identical athletes having same Max HR, resting hr etc if set their HR zones differently, will that make their Garmin VO2 max different?
Not at all. Zones are not mentioned in Firstbeat's patent. They are only useful for you to know how much time you spend in which. They are not used to compute vo2max, LT HR, training status etc
My Garmin measures VO2 only in the first 0.65miles of a run like clockwork. No matter what I do the rest of the time, only the first few minutes matter. I end up running fast the first few minutes because I got sick of VO2 dropping a point every slow run and taking 5 fast runs to recover a point. Is that normal?
Hi. I can only try and answer based on their patent, which is general and doesn't descrive the exact details. In this, they never speak about the first 0.65 miles (or any distance). They do say they give more weight to consistent segments. Maybe your first 0.65 miles are very constistently having the same HR/Speed ratio, probably fairly high (meaning your HR is fairly high when you run slow in the warm up phases). If you feel like doing some testing, you could not record your first 0.65 miles (or record them separately) and see if that changes anything.
max HR 210? how old are you? As you said 220-x is 210-30...you are 40? with 210 hr?
In my case it's different, when I first started using my garmin , I began with runs in zone 3 and 4 mostly and my vo2max kept getting better (went from 52 to 56 in 3 weeks lol). Then, I did a test run and it lowered to 55. Do you think that it's related with my technique? lol, maybe I am better at a comfortable pace
Hi Jose. Perfectly possible indeed. Also note that my HR vs speed ratio (or rather, its gradient) is also better for me at around zone 4 (not 5). It is at low zone 2 that things get bad for me (ie. to increase by 1kph, I need a lot of additional bpm)
More over what have they done with Garmin age. I was 20 for months now I’m 48.!!!!!
Story of my life.
Could do without or with better music.
Thanks for the feedback. Have followed your advice since :)
@@processmyrun6559 subscribed
I just press the "m" key. Works great.
Hehe i always have 43 did get 45 once by go slower and some bullshit hehehe i never listen to what it recommend I do , I do always what I want , and the watch I just stuck in 43 😂 .
As they say, softwares are tools, and we should not become slave of the tools :)