Great video Sam, I can't begin to count how many times in BGG threads that you see someone ask about a game via how it compares to an existing game that someone is already familiar with. Heroes and M44 are both uniquely different games, I own them both. When it comes to the shear scope of events it encompasses, its accessibility to new players, the level of detail that all of its expansions brings to it, including the campaign expansions, the different formats of play with regular, Overlord & Breakthrough...Memoir 44' is still the gold standard by which all other light wargames will be graded against.
Great Video Sam, if you're enjoying Heroes (and it seems you are), try one of the campaign expansions. I bought Carentan and its a blast, plus you get German paratroopers, also it adds a great historical context as opposed to the cinematic feel in the base game as you mentioned.
Excellent video, and interesting comparison. I'm fully invested in M44 and love it. I had considered HON, but decided that I already had the WWII genre covered.
Thanks Sam! I heard a review of Heroes of Normandy on an old episode of the Secret Cabal that I listened to on my way to work today. I thought, I know Sam Healy likes both Memoir and Heroes of Normandy and they seem somewhat similar to me, I wonder how he would compare them. I searched and saw that this was just released last week! I have the base Memoir and was debating whether I should get expansions or get Heroes instead. I liked some of the scenarios in Heroes, but after hearing all of this I do think Memoir is slightly better for me! Thanks for all your work, I love your videos (I have been really enjoying your painting stuff)!
"Why Sam Healey, you look like somebody just walked over your grave." ;) "I'm your Huckelberry!!" :) (One of the best flicks ever and certainly the best "quotable" movie ever. Got to love Val Kilmer as Doc Holliday.)
You never got to the "ELEPHANT" in the room. If you only could keep one which would it be? I own both and know my answer but curious as to which you prefer.
+Levi Ray For me, I have much more invested in Memoir '44, so the decision is simple for me. Plus, while I enjoy HoN a lot, I enjoy Memoir '44 more. But they are both really great games!
Somehow I knew this was coming from you, Sam. I still don't know when I'm going to buy these two, but dammit I will buy both. I'm THAT kind of collector :D Always fun to watch the comparisons. I really appreciate your hard work Sam. Awesome!
I'm glad you made this Video as I'm torn between the 2. I know many people in my group with M44 but no one has HON. I don't own either but I feel lead to get HON.
Another difference in my opinion is the fact that with HON you can play skirmish games where you decide the type of battle you want to fight (i.e. defensive , capture the flag, etc) and then spend your army points to rally but units suited to your style. I also find the propaganda art on some of the cards in HON to be really cool.
Hey Sam. I have Memoir already (still not yet played) but was disappointed to find that although one can play Gold, Sword and Juno beaches there are no British components. I believe there is an expansion that fixes that but I don't know which it is. Had a similar problem with Combat Commander Europe and had to buy the Mediterranean expansion to fix it. Actually, I did it the other way around. After receiving Combat Commander Mediterranean I realized that it wasn't a stand alone game. Since you clearly have a liking for War games I hope you will continue to review one every now and again. Although British, my favorite era is the American Civil War. Second World war a close second. I love the characters of the civil war. It's ironic that I know far less about the English Civil War of around 1664 I think. I guess that's the impact of hollywood. (I bet most Americans don't even know we had one.) It was in second year high school history as I recall. Anyhow, let me know about Memoir, please.
+David Curtis Watts There is also a Mediterranean Theater expansion for Memoir, too. It has Commonwealth troops and desert terrain tiles. And to get the full effect of the scenarios that come in it, you'll need to get the desert/winter board expansion, too.
Thanks for the vid Sam. I've been eyeing these two games for a while. Considering this would be my first buy in the war game genre, I'd been leaning heavily towards memoir, but then the "monster/mystical" version of Heroes came out...which I am a sucker for....so once again I am torn.
+Ink & Coffee Marks I think it really comes down to what you will enjoy the most...monster/mystical/theatrical or historical simulation. As it stands currently, there might be a wee bit more out there for Memoir '44, but some of it is harder to get hold of, and that is just not true for Heroes of Normandie...everything that HoN has going for it is available as far as I know. And Shadows Over Normandie is also available, as well as a couple expansions, too. If you think you would like being able to build your own army and deign your own skirmishes, then maybe HoN is down your alley. If you are more interested in simulating the historical battles of WW2 with the forces that were historically involved, then maybe Memoir '44 is what you need. Bottom line is, I can't make that decision for you, because really only you can answer those questions accurately.
John Corley I just reread my post, and it sounded like I was saying that there isn't as much out there for HoN, and that is not what I was trying to say. Rather, I was saying that most, if not all, of what is available for HoN (which rivals M44, frankly) is still available and easily accessible, whereas with M44, some of it is harder to find or out of print. Again, HoN does have a lot of product out there, and it's all mostly accessible.
Sam Healey Yup. Gotcha. I'm glad, but a little overwhelmed with how much they've put out so quickly since the kickstarter. I really shouldn't complain about that though....
Thanks for the great response! I consider myself much more of a theme-gamer than a mechanics-gamer, so the HoN/SoN appears to scratch that itch. I am nervous about the rules though...
Great video, Sam. You mention Combat Commander in the video and I see some flavor of it over your shoulder - have you played it and would you review it? Thanks!
I actually completely disagree. As a history nut, I find the oversimplification in Memoir frustrating and uninteresting. Even though the engagements in HoN aren't based on actual events, the representation of combat feels way more accurate, is more detailed, and more historically accurate.
I agree here! I love the detail in the units you can use in Heroes of Normandie a lot more... you fight with Shermans, Tigers, Panthers, Cromwells, Fireflies, mortar squads, flame throwers, bazooka's, snipers, Bren gunners, MG42s, ambush troops, halftracks, willy's jeeps, artillery, air support, night time conditions, and much much more. You choose which ammo to put in a tank (high explosive rounds, piercing, ...). Multiple types of grenades are available which different effects for each of them (gammon grenades, rifle grenades, sticky bombs and even molotov cocktails). So much variation! Plus the movie references are a cute and fun thing too.
I think Heroes of Normandy is more realistic and historical, maybe a bit more rules and focus on smaller battles, but I think Memoir 44 is too abstract for WW2. I like the Commands & Colors system for Ancients and WW1, but it fits less to WW2. Anyway both games are good and I might own both.
A closer comparison for BattleLore would be Borg's latest in the Commands and Colors system from PSC Games, The Great War. They follow each other a bit more closely on gameplay than BL and Memoir do. What I think it would boil down to between Memoir and BattleLore is genre preference...fantasy combat or historical combat.
+Sam Healey I just removed my above comment because I overlooked this one earlier. Do you guys think BattleLore and Memoir are too alike to own both? My daughter and I have Memoir, and we love it (side note, we talked to you at DTC 2015 about expansions Sam, thanks for the advice!). My daughter is a huge fantasy fan, so I was thinking this could be a win-win unless they're way too similar... maybe.. LOL
I currently own Memoir '44 and I absolutely love it, however, it is hobbled as a result of poor distribution/product availability resulting from neglect by Asmodee. This is further exacerbated by the intermittent releases of battlepacks which are reliant upon other expansions which are viewed as "core" expansions but which are frequently unavailable for years. I've recently been looking into Heroes of Normandie and unfortunately it looks as though it suffers from similar issues relating to product availability. I've seen various rumours suggesting that DPG might be releasing a new version via Kickstarter this year but at the moment this is pure speculation. I understand that wargames are a niche within the board gaming world but unfortunately these games are frequently hindered by poor support from the manufacturer and/or distributor.
I bought memoir 44 with the 3 theater exp + desert/winter map cuz the figure were nicew : after a couple of plays I sold it out: says a lot about how I loved it. And Heroes of normandie ? With so much math involve and dice roll.... no thanks.
xpadseyx check out these publishers. Columbia games, gmt games, multi man publishing, and decision games. academy games is working on a Gettysburg game that looks interesting but no time table for it. also go to board game geek and check some of the forums there.
Honestly I don't find these games comparable at all. But if we accept M44 as a "gold standard", then Heroes shines far above it, IMO, for lots of reasons: 1) far more expansions and add-ons 2) much more replayability 3) better decision making and mechanics 4) more plausible outcomes, more "realistic" despite the Hollywood allusions 5) not marred by the unrealistic "card-driven" constraints on decision-making, etc...* 6) the HoN artwork is superb, and its gorgeous counters beat the h*ll out of those frippy M44 plastic toy soldiers (note: if you do miniatures, do them well!) *Full disclosure, this is the killer for me. I don't mind being given limited orders or actions, and I don't even mind having to pass a test on whether my orders are followed if called for - so this is not about the need for total control - but I cannot stand pulling cards to find out what actions I can make or not make in a given turn. That's not "command constraints" or "fog of war", that's just craziness! Bottom line, I own and have played both, and now only play HoN, for which I have all the variants (Shadows of Normandy, etc.), extras, add-ons and expansions. No, I don't work for either Iello or Devil Pig Games, but yes, I am a total HoN fanboy. And I can't wait to get Heroes of Stalingrad in Q4 2019 - it looks awesome and I'm more interested in the Eastern Front anyway.
I've recently been looking into getting HoN but unfortunately it looks as though product distribution and availability has taken a complete nose dive. I was looking forward to picking it up, however, the core game now seems hard to come by and I've not even started looking into what it would take to implement the Brit's as this is who I'd want to play as.
@@FreeFragUK True. Amassing the entire range, or even the Brits, along with the base game, would take time and lots of scrounging. Limited production runs, and limited capability to do a rerun economically, is one of the major problems with the small business, or even "micro business" nature of gaming. If you do manage to find the base game, and like it, I'd be happy to sell you the Brits I have if you cant find them. I've transitioned into mostly naval and computer games over the last few years, so my HoN collection, in all its glory, is sitting on a storage unit, much of it still in original shrink wrap.
@@Goodtobetheking00 Thank you for the offer Good, I was fortunate enough to be able to find a copy of the Brit expansion. To be honest I've found most of what I want (at least as far as I know) the two I can't find at present are the Pointe du Hoc scenario pack and the Kelly's Heroes pack but I suspect the latter will be like rocking horse xxx.
@@FreeFragUK Glad you found it. I'm pretty sure I have both expansions you mention, but in a storage unit near Boston, not here in North Carolina. Hopefully I'll get that stuff moved out someday and I can do a full inventory. I may even have a duplicate of one or two of the expansions.
"...freedom, I don't like using that word." - Comrade Healey.
SandViper hahaha
Great video Sam, I can't begin to count how many times in BGG threads that you see someone ask about a game via how it compares to an existing game that someone is already familiar with. Heroes and M44 are both uniquely different games, I own them both. When it comes to the shear scope of events it encompasses, its accessibility to new players, the level of detail that all of its expansions brings to it, including the campaign expansions, the different formats of play with regular, Overlord & Breakthrough...Memoir 44' is still the gold standard by which all other light wargames will be graded against.
Great comparison. I lean towards Memoir because of its historical and a greater scale operations. Also, miniatures :)
Great Video Sam, if you're enjoying Heroes (and it seems you are), try one of the campaign expansions. I bought Carentan and its a blast, plus you get German paratroopers, also it adds a great historical context as opposed to the cinematic feel in the base game as you mentioned.
I have both games myself. I'd say that was a really good comparison. Keep up the good work!
Excellent video, and interesting comparison. I'm fully invested in M44 and love it. I had considered HON, but decided that I already had the WWII genre covered.
Thanks Sam! I heard a review of Heroes of Normandy on an old episode of the Secret Cabal that I listened to on my way to work today. I thought, I know Sam Healy likes both Memoir and Heroes of Normandy and they seem somewhat similar to me, I wonder how he would compare them. I searched and saw that this was just released last week! I have the base Memoir and was debating whether I should get expansions or get Heroes instead. I liked some of the scenarios in Heroes, but after hearing all of this I do think Memoir is slightly better for me! Thanks for all your work, I love your videos (I have been really enjoying your painting stuff)!
"Why Sam Healey, you look like somebody just walked over your grave." ;) "I'm your Huckelberry!!" :) (One of the best flicks ever and certainly the best "quotable" movie ever. Got to love Val Kilmer as Doc Holliday.)
You never got to the "ELEPHANT" in the room. If you only could keep one which would it be? I own both and know my answer but curious as to which you prefer.
+Levi Ray For me, I have much more invested in Memoir '44, so the decision is simple for me. Plus, while I enjoy HoN a lot, I enjoy Memoir '44 more. But they are both really great games!
+Sam Healey I prefer heroes, but to each his own. Noticed all the videos lately, busy busy man. Keep it up
Personally prefer Memoir. I like the Historical "accuracy" over the cinematic experience anyday
Somehow I knew this was coming from you, Sam. I still don't know when I'm going to buy these two, but dammit I will buy both. I'm THAT kind of collector :D Always fun to watch the comparisons. I really appreciate your hard work Sam. Awesome!
Thanks Sam great comparison :)
I'm glad you made this Video as I'm torn between the 2. I know many people in my group with M44 but no one has HON. I don't own either but I feel lead to get HON.
Another difference in my opinion is the fact that with HON you can play skirmish games where you decide the type of battle you want to fight (i.e. defensive , capture the flag, etc) and then spend your army points to rally but units suited to your style. I also find the propaganda art on some of the cards in HON to be really cool.
Hey Sam. I have Memoir already (still not yet played) but was disappointed to find that although one can play Gold, Sword and Juno beaches there are no British components. I believe there is an expansion that fixes that but I don't know which it is. Had a similar problem with Combat Commander Europe and had to buy the Mediterranean expansion to fix it. Actually, I did it the other way around. After receiving Combat Commander Mediterranean I realized that it wasn't a stand alone game. Since you clearly have a liking for War games I hope you will continue to review one every now and again. Although British, my favorite era is the American Civil War. Second World war a close second. I love the characters of the civil war. It's ironic that I know far less about the English Civil War of around 1664 I think. I guess that's the impact of hollywood. (I bet most Americans don't even know we had one.) It was in second year high school history as I recall. Anyhow, let me know about Memoir, please.
+David Curtis Watts There is also a Mediterranean Theater expansion for Memoir, too. It has Commonwealth troops and desert terrain tiles. And to get the full effect of the scenarios that come in it, you'll need to get the desert/winter board expansion, too.
Sam Healey Many thanks.
Weeeeeeell
Heroes of Normandy even has Canadians and Brits
Thanks for the vid Sam. I've been eyeing these two games for a while. Considering this would be my first buy in the war game genre, I'd been leaning heavily towards memoir, but then the "monster/mystical" version of Heroes came out...which I am a sucker for....so once again I am torn.
+Ink & Coffee Marks I think it really comes down to what you will enjoy the most...monster/mystical/theatrical or historical simulation. As it stands currently, there might be a wee bit more out there for Memoir '44, but some of it is harder to get hold of, and that is just not true for Heroes of Normandie...everything that HoN has going for it is available as far as I know. And Shadows Over Normandie is also available, as well as a couple expansions, too.
If you think you would like being able to build your own army and deign your own skirmishes, then maybe HoN is down your alley. If you are more interested in simulating the historical battles of WW2 with the forces that were historically involved, then maybe Memoir '44 is what you need. Bottom line is, I can't make that decision for you, because really only you can answer those questions accurately.
+Sam Healey I think there are more than a couple things out there for HoN. :) Both these games have a ton, really. 2 pages worth for HoN on coolstuff
John Corley I just reread my post, and it sounded like I was saying that there isn't as much out there for HoN, and that is not what I was trying to say. Rather, I was saying that most, if not all, of what is available for HoN (which rivals M44, frankly) is still available and easily accessible, whereas with M44, some of it is harder to find or out of print. Again, HoN does have a lot of product out there, and it's all mostly accessible.
Sam Healey Yup. Gotcha. I'm glad, but a little overwhelmed with how much they've put out so quickly since the kickstarter. I really shouldn't complain about that though....
Thanks for the great response! I consider myself much more of a theme-gamer than a mechanics-gamer, so the HoN/SoN appears to scratch that itch. I am nervous about the rules though...
Great video, Sam. You mention Combat Commander in the video and I see some flavor of it over your shoulder - have you played it and would you review it?
Thanks!
+Mike Sims Possibly in the future...got a lot of new games in the pipe right now at the Dice Tower. So, it could be a while...;)
HoN all day!! I own most of the expansions. Love it! Hope you guys jumped on the Big Red 1 kickstarter
Loving your vids Sam.
I actually completely disagree. As a history nut, I find the oversimplification in Memoir frustrating and uninteresting. Even though the engagements in HoN aren't based on actual events, the representation of combat feels way more accurate, is more detailed, and more historically accurate.
I agree here! I love the detail in the units you can use in Heroes of Normandie a lot more... you fight with Shermans, Tigers, Panthers, Cromwells, Fireflies, mortar squads, flame throwers, bazooka's, snipers, Bren gunners, MG42s, ambush troops, halftracks, willy's jeeps, artillery, air support, night time conditions, and much much more. You choose which ammo to put in a tank (high explosive rounds, piercing, ...). Multiple types of grenades are available which different effects for each of them (gammon grenades, rifle grenades, sticky bombs and even molotov cocktails). So much variation!
Plus the movie references are a cute and fun thing too.
YES!!!
@@bartdevuyst Also YES!!!
Vs Tide of Iron vs Undaunted.
I think Heroes of Normandy is more realistic and historical, maybe a bit more rules and focus on smaller battles, but I think Memoir 44 is too abstract for WW2. I like the Commands & Colors system for Ancients and WW1, but it fits less to WW2. Anyway both games are good and I might own both.
How about a comparison between Memoir and BattleLore? Borg's got me pretty torn on which one to get...
A closer comparison for BattleLore would be Borg's latest in the Commands and Colors system from PSC Games, The Great War. They follow each other a bit more closely on gameplay than BL and Memoir do.
What I think it would boil down to between Memoir and BattleLore is genre preference...fantasy combat or historical combat.
+Sam Healey I just removed my above comment because I overlooked this one earlier.
Do you guys think BattleLore and Memoir are too alike to own both? My daughter and I have Memoir, and we love it (side note, we talked to you at DTC 2015 about expansions Sam, thanks for the advice!). My daughter is a huge fantasy fan, so I was thinking this could be a win-win unless they're way too similar... maybe.. LOL
I currently own Memoir '44 and I absolutely love it, however, it is hobbled as a result of poor distribution/product availability resulting from neglect by Asmodee. This is further exacerbated by the intermittent releases of battlepacks which are reliant upon other expansions which are viewed as "core" expansions but which are frequently unavailable for years.
I've recently been looking into Heroes of Normandie and unfortunately it looks as though it suffers from similar issues relating to product availability. I've seen various rumours suggesting that DPG might be releasing a new version via Kickstarter this year but at the moment this is pure speculation.
I understand that wargames are a niche within the board gaming world but unfortunately these games are frequently hindered by poor support from the manufacturer and/or distributor.
Sam you gotta do that flipside move you did in the other video: fwip fwip!
Apples and oranges guys!
I bought memoir 44 with the 3 theater exp + desert/winter map cuz the figure were nicew : after a couple of plays I sold it out: says a lot about how I loved it.
And Heroes of normandie ? With so much math involve and dice roll.... no thanks.
What are the best games with the US Civil War as a theme?
+xpadseyx Battle Cry
Are you looking for light or heavy?
Heavy to medium?
xpadseyx check out these publishers. Columbia games, gmt games, multi man publishing, and decision games. academy games is working on a Gettysburg game that looks interesting but no time table for it. also go to board game geek and check some of the forums there.
Honestly I don't find these games comparable at all. But if we accept M44 as a "gold standard", then Heroes shines far above it, IMO, for lots of reasons:
1) far more expansions and add-ons
2) much more replayability
3) better decision making and mechanics
4) more plausible outcomes, more "realistic" despite the Hollywood allusions
5) not marred by the unrealistic "card-driven" constraints on decision-making, etc...*
6) the HoN artwork is superb, and its gorgeous counters beat the h*ll out of those frippy M44 plastic toy soldiers (note: if you do miniatures, do them well!)
*Full disclosure, this is the killer for me. I don't mind being given limited orders or actions, and I don't even mind having to pass a test on whether my orders are followed if called for - so this is not about the need for total control - but I cannot stand pulling cards to find out what actions I can make or not make in a given turn.
That's not "command constraints" or "fog of war", that's just craziness!
Bottom line, I own and have played both, and now only play HoN, for which I have all the variants (Shadows of Normandy, etc.), extras, add-ons and expansions. No, I don't work for either Iello or Devil Pig Games, but yes, I am a total HoN fanboy.
And I can't wait to get Heroes of Stalingrad in Q4 2019 - it looks awesome and I'm more interested in the Eastern Front anyway.
I've recently been looking into getting HoN but unfortunately it looks as though product distribution and availability has taken a complete nose dive. I was looking forward to picking it up, however, the core game now seems hard to come by and I've not even started looking into what it would take to implement the Brit's as this is who I'd want to play as.
@@FreeFragUK True. Amassing the entire range, or even the Brits, along with the base game, would take time and lots of scrounging. Limited production runs, and limited capability to do a rerun economically, is one of the major problems with the small business, or even "micro business" nature of gaming. If you do manage to find the base game, and like it, I'd be happy to sell you the Brits I have if you cant find them. I've transitioned into mostly naval and computer games over the last few years, so my HoN collection, in all its glory, is sitting on a storage unit, much of it still in original shrink wrap.
@@Goodtobetheking00 Thank you for the offer Good, I was fortunate enough to be able to find a copy of the Brit expansion. To be honest I've found most of what I want (at least as far as I know) the two I can't find at present are the Pointe du Hoc scenario pack and the Kelly's Heroes pack but I suspect the latter will be like rocking horse xxx.
@@FreeFragUK Glad you found it. I'm pretty sure I have both expansions you mention, but in a storage unit near Boston, not here in North Carolina. Hopefully I'll get that stuff moved out someday and I can do a full inventory. I may even have a duplicate of one or two of the expansions.