You never cease to amaze me with your conversion skills. I'm just starting my reloading in only 45 Colt. Since I have so many revolvers in that caliber. I bought a Lee hand loading kit (not a press) and it's been a difficult learning curve. I have had many seating failures. Safe to say I really suck at it right now. Thanks for always sharing. God Bless
Great idea! I had thought of that after seeing some videos on metal spinning, however I don't think my little lathe is heavy duty enough to give it a try.
if one was fortunate enough to have disposable income AND basic shop skills/tools, maybe something similar to 'flow drilling' process could do wonders (after much cash and time, maybe)
I came to say the same thing. Could make a tool with an actual bearing and have a flat face pushing at a slight angle. Slowest speed with back gears and lube should allow even the smallest lathes to be successful.
2:35 correct me if im wrong but wouldnt you never use a smokeless charge in this rifle anyway? Wouldnt the pressure be too much for the gun or could you underload to compensate?
good info, thank you. I have an Allin conversion trapdoor, been shooting it in the local Ram Bash all year. I'm kicking my self for only getting 100 Starlines back a few years ago though. I shoot low pressure smokeless loads (Trail Boss). Haven't had any issues with my Martini Henry and 28 Ga shot shells resized with low pressure smokeless....
Absolutely LOVE your stuff. That's my kind of more than good enough workmanship, applied to very niche but deserving situations. All that while meeting - aka staying above - the critical safety and function line
yes, originally 50-70 ammunition was made from copper cases instead of brass, it was also somewhat problematic since copper is softer than brass it would jam up the action relatively easily/frequently and just generally didnt respond well when fired, if im not mistaken it was one of the contributing factors to it being dropped as quickly as it was
I have seen other videos where an "O" ring is made using a correct diameter of brass wire. The rubber ring seems to be the easiest option and reusable since it is not damaged. I am lucky to have 50-70 brass that I purchased years ago for cheap. I have always wondered about converting 32 ga. brass since the balloon head will accept 70 grs. of powder. My 50-70 brass will only accept 45 grs. of powder and shoots POV @ 50-100 yards in my NYS RRB. Thank you for this very in depth video.
@@rakumprojects They are Starline Brand and the bottom of the case is solid and as deep as a large rifle primer except for the flash hole. They are approx. 1 3/4" long. Perhaps the powder could be compressed to fit 55 grains which I think was the Armory load for Carbines. Maybe Starline makes them that way ?????
I used 348 brass to make 50-95 winchester cases, rim is a bit small but extracted just fine. thickness of rim is fine, i had to use several expanding balls like a 40 and 45 dia before the 50 expanding ball. then fire formed them much cheaper then 50-95 brass
I wonder if you could solder a little bit of copper wire around the rim to fix that issue with less labor. Maybe slightly too big and finish on the lathe for an even surface.
I found this video by way of the swaging video you put up. Now that you're swaging cases, I wonder if it would be less hassle to make swaging dies to reform these shotshell rims?
i was actually thinking the same. Humans can do very precise motion and it pays to practice the repeatability aspect of it all. Tempo felt great but im much more impressed by the seemingly constant tool angle while force is being imparted - or motion converted to force. Whatever more low level technical words can be inserted here for better PAZZAZZ or WOW factor.
You should use your lathe to turn thin brass shims, which is then tin soldered in place right in front of the thin 32 gauge rim. Using a rubber O-ring was a smart idea. I used to convert .348 Win casings to 12.7x44R when I had several different Swedish, Husqvarna, Rolling Block rifles, many years ago. Unfortunately, these cartridges/casings are now discontinued.
I was thinking that adding a thin brass shim turned on the lathe from round rod then soft soldered then trimmed on the lathe to final thickness and diameter might be less tedious than “peening” the shotshell rim.
Suggestion: Since you have a Lathe, Silver Solder the rim and then turn it to dimension. Also Silver Solder might be a solution for the balloon head, if you could solder the interior and then grind a drill bit to the desired interior cartridge profile.
The balloon head isn't really a problem with the low pressures that I load the cases to, and as another commenter suggested, they make it easier to fit more powder. I've been tempted to solder rims on cases before, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to mess with the temper of the brass in such a critical area. It may not matter with black powder though, but I don't want to risk damaging the gun, or myself.
@@rakumprojects you could maybe implement a work hardening routine after soldering rims on cases. it would probably end up costing alot more in resources and time but is maybe worth the squeeze. Starting with extremely light loads of non abrasive organic materials and progressingly going up till you hit a load that can safely eject bullets... and go up from there to play/party pressures.
@@rakumprojects I have soldered on rims to form 43 Egyptian brass from .348 Winchester cases. The softening of the bases isn't a problem with black powder, they can be dead soft. There's also no reason to use silver solder, normal solder will do and as such you don't need a lot of heat. This technique is described in J Donnelly's cartridge conversion book.
@@rakumprojects Filling the cartridge halfway with a high temperature resistant oil, would probably alleviate any problems when soldering a rim on. Also, if the chamber has no major defects, and the headspace is to tolerance then the case should be fully supported during firing.
@@rakumprojects Soldering black powder cases should not hurt. They will work harden. Remember that the original loads for .577 snider were rolled brass foil soldered to an iron head.
Great video! A suggestion if you were converting en masse; your lathe may be big enough to make a sleeve to fit the case. Top ground flat to oppose the shotshell’s rim bevel, this would be the anvil. A second sleeve/cup that slides over the first with the internal bevel on the opposite side of the shot shell. Essentially when put together the sleeve in your vice and external female cup slid over top, the negative space inside would be the shape of the rim you’re looking for. Few solid smacks could form the rim profile quickly and evenly. Would require some turning between centres but I think would be a fun project. Can make the two pieces external dimension as big and shallow as possible so you would have access to make internal bevel on female piece.
That is a lot of work. Starline really needs to put 50-70 cases into active production. In December I decided to look for some for my 1874 Sharps Carbine. In May a local gun shop had a M1871 New York Contract Rolling Block for sale with ammo. The rifle was free. Eight boxes of Buffalo Arms 50-70 One being a partial. You got a deal on that M1871. I got a screaming deal on the one I got. I have yet to take it out to the range. Maybe next week Do the cartridges fit my 1874 Sharps…. No. It might be chambered 50-45. A foot note in Cartridges of the World. I also ordered the Lee bullet Mold and a set of reloading dies from RCBS… WELL DONE!
Most cool. I have been "Skirmishing" in the N-SSA for 24 years but have recently started shooting Black Powder Cartridge. Ended up with lovely Maynard 1873 in Maynard (or Stevens) 35-40. I am looking for the brass. I hve another Maynard 1873 in maynaard 32-35... tht was easy... The new project is bit harder.
Looking at the high force needed to re-size those cases I think you need to either anneal them again halfway through the resizing process or maybe let them go to a slightly higher temperature. It also looks like you might need to anneal closer to the head of the case since the last 10% of the resize seemed hard work and that part of the case was shielded from the flame by the socket it was sitting in.
Annealing a case again half way through a conversion can't hurt. I sometimes do it for more drastic conversions, such as a straight wall to a bottle neck.
@@rakumprojects I've just watched that part of the video again. I still see two problems that are causing the resize to be more difficult than it need be. First, I'm pretty sure you are not getting the case hot enough to actually do much to it, You need to get it to about 400F and at that temp the case should have changed color a lot more. Do you have a thermometer you can check the temp with? Secondly, you are only annealing the top 40% of the case, the rest is shrouded by the socket and doesn't get heated very much, the taper on the diameter is 30 thou so you have to shrink the mid point by 15 thou which is quite a lot on hard brass and explains why so much force was needed. Typically, if you can't resize a non-bottleneck case in one go then it means the brass is too hard
i had a couple ideas for fitting the rim is using a plumbing solder and turning it down to size with a lathe, you could also try rollforming them if you have the capabilities for either it might be worth trying
You also need to outfit your press with a Hornady Lock-n-load die holders. The your dies with corresponding collars, just snap in and out in a second. No constant adjusting.
I thought about it, but even within the same caliber I need different die setups based on the rifle. The best example is 303 British. For my P14 I use the neck sizing die the same as the instructions call for, on my SMLE's I unscrew it a turn, then for my Ross I unscrew it like 4 turns.
If you have a lathe, making rings to correct the ring diameter and thickness might be a solution. My only question is to solder it on, use super glue, or form the base of the ring so that it could be crimped on?
Use the Rigid brand pipe deburring tool. I have used it with short cartridges so I know you'll have no problem with the 50-70. Got mine off of Amazon and it's a solid tool and you can use it for plumbing projects. RIDGID 29983 Model 223S 1/4" to 1-1/4" Inner/Outer Copper and Stainless
I think I would try making a .015" thick washer to drop onto the case and solder on. You could get the right outside diameter and it should be quicker once set up to make them. On a larger scale production a punch die could be made to punch the washers out of .015 sheet stock.
I have a question 🙋♂️ are you on Rumble???? God I hope so your channel is indispensable. And I have a very good feeling this kind of information will be stifled.
Chambers on these old rifles can be generous. I wonder if you needed to fully resize the brass to allow them to chamber. I have a '66 Allen that has a very long chamber. I could load the bullet just off the lands and get close to 90grains of black. (I have never done this, I shoot my NYS rifle as it is in better shape).
Thank you! I got a trapdoor Springfield in .50-70 and have exactly two pieces of brass for it. I have bullet casting materials and molds, and am going to get dies, but brass is impossible to find.
Graf and Sons has .50-70 brass for about $1.44 ea. when in stock. Not available now but you can put in request for notification or purchase & wait for avail.
I don't know about this. Use 45-70 and expand neck to 50cal using expander die. It should be able to straighten case out. Remove the taper. Gee whiz that's a lot of work and the case is not that correct. Like you said Black Powder Load and showed all the expensive tools used. Time is money Gent.
I have done some reloading in my life but never with black powder. Can you use pyrodex in cartridges at the same amount as black powder? Also what was the stuff that you put in between the two patches before you seated the bullet?
Yes, pyrodex is interchangable with real black powder. I've never had an issue with it, but some people say it's harder to clean. Between the wads is a clump of bullet lube (50/50 beeswax and crisco), which takes up room in the case and provides additional lube.
Well I've been loading my .45 long colts with smokeless powder for years but I was wondering about loading them with black powder or pyrodex. How much powder should I use and do I need tha wax that you use in the .45 70?
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This is precisely the kind of dry, no-nonsense video I wish more people made. : )
This channel is a daily dose of firearm ASMR I love it.
You never cease to amaze me with your conversion skills. I'm just starting my reloading in only 45 Colt. Since I have so many revolvers in that caliber. I bought a Lee hand loading kit (not a press) and it's been a difficult learning curve. I have had many seating failures. Safe to say I really suck at it right now. Thanks for always sharing. God Bless
I have a lot of respect for the effort involved, so much so that I'd definitely just buy 50-70 brass. Great video man, I enjoy your work.
I love how you're able to make the cases you need from other cartridges
Maybe you should try rollforming the rim on a mandel on the lathe with a ballbearing mounted in a holder.
Great idea! I had thought of that after seeing some videos on metal spinning, however I don't think my little lathe is heavy duty enough to give it a try.
@@rakumprojects maybe rework a knurling tool and switch the rollers to smooth ones. That should take less force.
Thats a great idea. It got me thinking of 'metal spinning' techniques/processes
if one was fortunate enough to have disposable income AND basic shop skills/tools, maybe something similar to 'flow drilling' process could do wonders (after much cash and time, maybe)
I came to say the same thing. Could make a tool with an actual bearing and have a flat face pushing at a slight angle. Slowest speed with back gears and lube should allow even the smallest lathes to be successful.
Excellent video!
Awesome stuff man, love your content, keep it up!! Interested in seeing how these cases hold up.
Very good and fussy approach to making .50-70 cases from 32 gauge shotshells. I envy you for acquiring that New York style rifle.
This dude is a magician.
2:35 correct me if im wrong but wouldnt you never use a smokeless charge in this rifle anyway? Wouldnt the pressure be too much for the gun or could you underload to compensate?
Some people use light charges of fast burning smokeless powder in these old rifles. Personally, I stick to black powder
good info, thank you. I have an Allin conversion trapdoor, been shooting it in the local Ram Bash all year. I'm kicking my self for only getting 100 Starlines back a few years ago though. I shoot low pressure smokeless loads (Trail Boss). Haven't had any issues with my Martini Henry and 28 Ga shot shells resized with low pressure smokeless....
Absolutely LOVE your stuff. That's my kind of more than good enough workmanship, applied to very niche but deserving situations. All that while meeting - aka staying above - the critical safety and function line
Awesome show, I saw some 50- 70 cases many years ago,they were made of copper?
yes, originally 50-70 ammunition was made from copper cases instead of brass, it was also somewhat problematic since copper is softer than brass it would jam up the action relatively easily/frequently and just generally didnt respond well when fired, if im not mistaken it was one of the contributing factors to it being dropped as quickly as it was
I have seen other videos where an "O" ring is made using a correct diameter of brass wire. The rubber ring seems to be the easiest option and reusable since it is not damaged. I am lucky to have 50-70 brass that I purchased years ago for cheap. I have always wondered about converting 32 ga. brass since the balloon head will accept 70 grs. of powder. My 50-70 brass will only accept
45 grs. of powder and shoots POV @ 50-100 yards in my NYS RRB. Thank you for this very in depth video.
I'm surprised your 50-70 will only take 45gr, I didn't think the case type would make that big of a difference. I would have guessed 10gr or so.
@@rakumprojects They are Starline Brand and the bottom of the case is solid and as deep as a large rifle primer except for the flash hole. They are approx. 1 3/4" long. Perhaps the powder could be compressed to fit 55 grains which I think was the Armory load for Carbines. Maybe Starline makes them that way ?????
I used 348 brass to make 50-95 winchester cases, rim is a bit small but extracted just fine. thickness of rim is fine, i had to use several expanding balls like a 40 and 45 dia before the 50 expanding ball. then fire formed them much cheaper then 50-95 brass
Thats what my grandfather used to do and just go over the wire with some green loctite to make sure the wire never come loose.
I wonder if you could solder a little bit of copper wire around the rim to fix that issue with less labor. Maybe slightly too big and finish on the lathe for an even surface.
I found this video by way of the swaging video you put up.
Now that you're swaging cases, I wonder if it would be less hassle to make swaging dies to reform these shotshell rims?
Yes, swaging dies can be made to form the 50-70 rims as well.
I forgot to mention that the speed and robotic precision of the way you hammered the rim must be a gift from the god Thor.....LOL.
i was actually thinking the same. Humans can do very precise motion and it pays to practice the repeatability aspect of it all. Tempo felt great but im much more impressed by the seemingly constant tool angle while force is being imparted - or motion converted to force. Whatever more low level technical words can be inserted here for better PAZZAZZ or WOW factor.
This guy is the best narrator I've ever heard
You should use your lathe to turn thin brass shims, which is then tin soldered in place right in front of the thin 32 gauge rim.
Using a rubber O-ring was a smart idea.
I used to convert .348 Win casings to 12.7x44R when I had several different Swedish, Husqvarna, Rolling Block rifles, many years ago.
Unfortunately, these cartridges/casings are now discontinued.
I was thinking that adding a thin brass shim turned on the lathe from round rod then soft soldered then trimmed on the lathe to final thickness and diameter might be less tedious than “peening” the shotshell rim.
@@vajake1 . Exactly my thoughts, and in addition the rim thickness would be perfect for every single cartridge.
Suggestion: Since you have a Lathe, Silver Solder the rim and then turn it to dimension. Also Silver Solder might be a solution for the balloon head, if you could solder the interior and then grind a drill bit to the desired interior cartridge profile.
The balloon head isn't really a problem with the low pressures that I load the cases to, and as another commenter suggested, they make it easier to fit more powder.
I've been tempted to solder rims on cases before, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to mess with the temper of the brass in such a critical area. It may not matter with black powder though, but I don't want to risk damaging the gun, or myself.
@@rakumprojects you could maybe implement a work hardening routine after soldering rims on cases. it would probably end up costing alot more in resources and time but is maybe worth the squeeze. Starting with extremely light loads of non abrasive organic materials and progressingly going up till you hit a load that can safely eject bullets... and go up from there to play/party pressures.
@@rakumprojects I have soldered on rims to form 43 Egyptian brass from .348 Winchester cases. The softening of the bases isn't a problem with black powder, they can be dead soft. There's also no reason to use silver solder, normal solder will do and as such you don't need a lot of heat. This technique is described in J Donnelly's cartridge conversion book.
@@rakumprojects Filling the cartridge halfway with a high temperature resistant oil, would probably alleviate any problems when soldering a rim on. Also, if the chamber has no major defects, and the headspace is to tolerance then the case should be fully supported during firing.
@@rakumprojects Soldering black powder cases should not hurt. They will work harden. Remember that the original loads for .577 snider were rolled brass foil soldered to an iron head.
Getting awesome flashbacks to the old MidwayUSA black powder loading vids towards the end of this.
Would it be possible to make a die capable of forming the rim? I imagine a mandrel could allow you to form the brass rim in the reloading press.
Yes, that would certainly make it easier to convert multiple cases.
Great video! A suggestion if you were converting en masse; your lathe may be big enough to make a sleeve to fit the case. Top ground flat to oppose the shotshell’s rim bevel, this would be the anvil. A second sleeve/cup that slides over the first with the internal bevel on the opposite side of the shot shell. Essentially when put together the sleeve in your vice and external female cup slid over top, the negative space inside would be the shape of the rim you’re looking for. Few solid smacks could form the rim profile quickly and evenly. Would require some turning between centres but I think would be a fun project. Can make the two pieces external dimension as big and shallow as possible so you would have access to make internal bevel on female piece.
Great tips! It's a different subject, but I think you'll like my next video.
That is a lot of work. Starline really needs to put 50-70 cases into active production.
In December I decided to look for some for my 1874 Sharps Carbine. In May a local gun shop had a M1871 New York Contract Rolling Block for sale with ammo. The rifle was free. Eight boxes of Buffalo Arms 50-70 One being a partial.
You got a deal on that M1871. I got a screaming deal on the one I got. I have yet to take it out to the range. Maybe next week
Do the cartridges fit my 1874 Sharps…. No. It might be chambered 50-45. A foot note in Cartridges of the World.
I also ordered the Lee bullet Mold and a set of reloading dies from RCBS…
WELL DONE!
Most cool. I have been "Skirmishing" in the N-SSA for 24 years but have recently started shooting Black Powder Cartridge. Ended up with lovely Maynard 1873 in Maynard (or Stevens) 35-40. I am looking for the brass. I hve another Maynard 1873 in maynaard 32-35... tht was easy... The new project is bit harder.
Looking at the high force needed to re-size those cases I think you need to either anneal them again halfway through the resizing process or maybe let them go to a slightly higher temperature. It also looks like you might need to anneal closer to the head of the case since the last 10% of the resize seemed hard work and that part of the case was shielded from the flame by the socket it was sitting in.
Annealing a case again half way through a conversion can't hurt. I sometimes do it for more drastic conversions, such as a straight wall to a bottle neck.
@@rakumprojects I've just watched that part of the video again. I still see two problems that are causing the resize to be more difficult than it need be. First, I'm pretty sure you are not getting the case hot enough to actually do much to it, You need to get it to about 400F and at that temp the case should have changed color a lot more. Do you have a thermometer you can check the temp with? Secondly, you are only annealing the top 40% of the case, the rest is shrouded by the socket and doesn't get heated very much, the taper on the diameter is 30 thou so you have to shrink the mid point by 15 thou which is quite a lot on hard brass and explains why so much force was needed. Typically, if you can't resize a non-bottleneck case in one go then it means the brass is too hard
Getting that fantastic rifle firing again must be a great feeling. Especially with your own reloaded rounds. Kudos!
It was easier to roll the head of the sleeve in a lathe using a bearing.
Very well done video. Not a lot of time wasted.
i had a couple ideas for fitting the rim is using a plumbing solder and turning it down to size with a lathe, you could also try rollforming them if you have the capabilities for either it might be worth trying
I have a 2nd allin conversion Springfield Rifled Musket 1866 in .50-70 and it sounds like I'm going to have to get into reloading
You could put that case in the lathe and use a smooth metal rod to push that rim down instead of hammering it
You also need to outfit your press with a Hornady Lock-n-load die holders. The your dies with corresponding collars, just snap in and out in a second. No constant adjusting.
I thought about it, but even within the same caliber I need different die setups based on the rifle. The best example is 303 British. For my P14 I use the neck sizing die the same as the instructions call for, on my SMLE's I unscrew it a turn, then for my Ross I unscrew it like 4 turns.
If you have a lathe, making rings to correct the ring diameter and thickness might be a solution. My only question is to solder it on, use super glue, or form the base of the ring so that it could be crimped on?
What about 348 Win brass? On a side note, Bruce Bertram in Victoria Australia makes 50-70. Make a Shim from a coke can
Use the Rigid brand pipe deburring tool.
I have used it with short cartridges so I know you'll have no problem with the 50-70.
Got mine off of Amazon and it's a solid tool and you can use it for plumbing projects.
RIDGID 29983 Model 223S 1/4" to 1-1/4" Inner/Outer Copper and Stainless
Why didn't I think of that? It seems so obvious now
YOu are doing at least $5 or $6 work sizing & fitting each shell. Might be more effective to just buy the "expensive" brass at $5.75 per shell.
It's a hobby! Perhaps he enjoys the work.
I various cartridges that I have converted I used dental braces rubber bands instead of o-rings. they're very cheap and will last several firings.
Are the cases long enough for 11mm gras?
They measure 2.435" long, so they should be long enough. I'm not sure if the rim can be shaped to the correct profile though.
@@rakumprojects I've got a lathe if I need it
LE Wilson makes a dandy case trimmer for this job. No doubt he has or can make a case holder for the tool. Sort of hand powered lathe.
instead of a o-ring you can make small rings out of brass
I think I would try making a .015" thick washer to drop onto the case and solder on. You could get the right outside diameter and it should be quicker once set up to make them. On a larger scale production a punch die could be made to punch the washers out of .015 sheet stock.
could I use 50 cal minie balls for the bullets?
Don't see why not.
I have a question 🙋♂️ are you on Rumble???? God I hope so your channel is indispensable. And I have a very good feeling this kind of information will be stifled.
Yes, though I haven't added any videos in a while
Chambers on these old rifles can be generous. I wonder if you needed to fully resize the brass to allow them to chamber. I have a '66 Allen that has a very long chamber. I could load the bullet just off the lands and get close to 90grains of black. (I have never done this, I shoot my NYS rifle as it is in better shape).
That rim might fire form just with pressure....
braze a thin piece of brass on the shell insteat of o ring
Ok, this is cool, but if you count the time this took, you are money ahead buying the $5 brass.
Using your lathe to reform the rim would have been faster - you would need a tool to support the case and roll form the rim.
Carefully applied headspace with a hammer lmao to be fair ive done more sketchy things
Why all this work , when STARLINE makes brass
That is only a theory. 50-70. Cases have not been available for years from Starline.
Thank you! I got a trapdoor Springfield in .50-70 and have exactly two pieces of brass for it. I have bullet casting materials and molds, and am going to get dies, but brass is impossible to find.
Graf and Sons has .50-70 brass for about $1.44 ea. when in stock. Not available now but you can put in request for notification or purchase & wait for avail.
Yes, but there's no estimate. Starline's website doesn't allow backorders for it, which I think means they have no plans to produce it anytime soon.
i used 348 cases for a 50 95 winchester should also work for 50 70
👍👍👌👌
I don't know about this. Use 45-70 and expand neck to 50cal using expander die. It should be able to straighten case out. Remove the taper. Gee whiz that's a lot of work and the case is not that correct. Like you said Black Powder Load and showed all the expensive tools used. Time is money Gent.
Go to starline brass you can get 50/70 and 50/90
Both have been out of stock for years. No backorder on the 50/70, which means they have no plans of producing it any time soon
I have done some reloading in my life but never with black powder. Can you use pyrodex in cartridges at the same amount as black powder? Also what was the stuff that you put in between the two patches before you seated the bullet?
Yes, pyrodex is interchangable with real black powder. I've never had an issue with it, but some people say it's harder to clean.
Between the wads is a clump of bullet lube (50/50 beeswax and crisco), which takes up room in the case and provides additional lube.
Remember that there must not be an air-gap in a black powder case, it's dangerous!
Well I've been loading my .45 long colts with smokeless powder for years but I was wondering about loading them with black powder or pyrodex. How much powder should I use and do I need tha wax that you use in the .45 70?