No Such Thing as a Good Cult with Mark Vicente Part 2 | Navigating Narcissism with Dr. Ramani
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
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As we dive into part 2 of Mark Vicente's experience in the NXIVM cult, we go even deeper and discuss the root of the problem, Keith Raniere and executive team, who aided and abetted his actions of abuse. Mark talks about victim blaming, and points out that what happened to him could really happen to anyone. Mark breaks down his emotional journey after finding out and then accepting the truth about Raniere's abuse. With the justice system being flawed, we witness the rare occasion where the abuser receives a deserving sentence.
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Guest Bio:
Mark was born in Johannesburg, South Africa, in 1965. Taking his first photograph at age four, he quickly discovered his passion for being behind the camera. After attending film and drama school in South Africa, he began working his way up the ranks of the camera department. His first big break came as Director of Photography on the musical SARAFINA, starring Whoopi Goldberg. In 1992, he relocated to Los Angeles to shoot his first studio picture for Disney; FATHERHOOD, starring Patrick Swayze and Halle Berry.
Over the next few decades, he went on to shoot an additional 14 feature films and numerous documentaries, music videos, and commercials. Mark soon discovered untold stories he needed to express as a director. He was driven by the conviction that tales of greatness, nobility, and introspection could be exciting and financially successful.
Growing up during the Apartheid era in South Africa and its widespread iniquities, Mark learned early on to question fundamental assumptions and beliefs about human behavior, cosmology, existentialism, and mysticism. While that bold curiosity served him well, the path found him in direct contact with truly malignant pathologic personalities masquerading as forward-thinking philosophical leaders teaching self-improvement while inflicting unthinkable damage to their followers... and to Mark himself.
His recent defection from the NXIVM cult was chronicled in the HBO series THE VOW. Mark and a few courageous whistleblowers exposed the criminal activities of this organization, resulting in multiple arrests and indictments.
Mark is currently in production on a number of films, including one on Narcissism and Narcissistic abuse.
Guest Information:
Mark Vicente’s Instagram - @markvicente
Mark Vicente’s Twitter - @markvicente
This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and/or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast.
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Narcissists are everywhere and these days it seems like everyone has at least one in their lives! Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a licensed clinical psychologist, will help you spot red flags and heal from the narcissist in your life. Every Thursday, we will hear first-hand accounts from people who know this territory the best, the survivors.
New episodes weekly on iHeartRadio.
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Mark has such a nice personality and is a very intelligent guy, it goes to show how anyone can get caught up with this
Yup. I did too 😢
I liked your example Dr.Ramani there is not a healthy cigarette and same as the narsisism, there is not a healthy narcisism
Interesting what Bonnie did! “I have so many things going on; I have so many fears. I’m just going to go be still and be with myself.” Reconnecting with herself is such a good practice! 10 days. It was when I spent 2 weeks away from an ex that I also began to see more clearly and found the strength to leave.
Dr Ramani you are doing an amazing job and I believe everybody should listen to this podcast to increase our awareness about narcissism
I remember the day when I realized that my mother stopped physically abusing me because my dad got sober and asked myself, "How did I not know this sooner?" That day, I realized what a monster my mother was.
WOW what AMAZING podcast, was married to a narcissist for 28yrs, now soooo EDUCATED ON this, well well DONE for taking this on, had to go through the courts for several years but TG i really think judge saw through him, thank you so much for this, it's HORRENDOUS what a Narcissist puts you through, God bless you, and God love people left behind, knowledge is power.
I was in a 40 year marriage to a narcissist/sociopath. I was lucky enough to get a private judge and amazing lawyer who fought with me for 2 years to detach from this monster. These professionals saw right through him, but we still had to go through all the legal bullshit to get to the end game. My FREEDOM! Congratulations to you for getting away as most women, after so many years, don’t. ❤
All of this very true
Thank you for the podcast and interview. Beginning to see this is a problem in the esoteric spiritual community. I am extricating myself from that community after depersonalization and dissociation thru spiritual gaslighting.
It's not just that community...its in the judicial system... lawyers.. so.e police... councellers...
Therapists..
They are literally EVERYONE. My narc was son of a doctor... so people thought he couldn't be bcos he came from a good family. I'm lucky to be alive and hopefully will have a roof over my head. He is now totally exploiting our adult child.... and our adult child is his one man cult. The woman he is with is also I suspect a narc feom what I know of her...she was his mistress when he was with me..its descusting the world of narcissism and no profession is safe feom them...not even families.
Well, it’s the potential problem with any community. Fortunately not any spiritual community is toxic and manipulative.
But sure, as lang as you are still prone to not being able to look through and withstand manipulation, it’s probably best to step back for a while 👍
Awesome these two together. Cults familes couples government business. Its everywhere because we enable it.
Just starting watching this. The cult I was in ( ICOC) did the same type of manipulating. Took me 17 years to get out. But it can't be prosecuted because the founder, Kip McKean never trafficked women. But the lifelong emotional damage he did to THOUSANDS of people is abominable.
He started a new cult in Los Angeles and it breaks my heart for those people. He does EXACTLY the same tactics.
Because I survived a 10-yr marriage to a narcissist, I was able to get out of the ICOC after six weeks. I agree. They are absolutely a cult.
I know that you two need no ego boosting but I enjoy hearing such intellectual compassionate people!!
It bothers me that people think only gullible dumb people get pulled in by cults or narcissistic people!! From your videos and from watching these documentaries, it seems that it is really good people that want to make a difference and want self improvement!! I think narcs love to target these kind of people because they truly want to break them down!! I think in reality they can’t believe that people really care about others because it is an emotion they can’t feel so really they are searching for something too or more like “hunting!”
we really need people to stand for something and real compassionate people
First step is to start sticking up for each other and stepping up when they see someone treating them bad in any way, and if you suspect something speak up and tell them. Then no matter what never cave and stick to your values we need our culture to be like this across our planet, sadly we've got to change those up top first.
OMG, I wish I'd been a Bonny towards my friend...
We live and learn.
It's a very difficult road to go down when is the person you are trying to help, will not see it as help but an attack.
I've been trying to help my sister, her counter attack was vicious and gave me PSTD. She's her own worst flying monkey but I think the family is getting to her, it's like water dripping in stone though. We can't give up, just be persistent we have to rescue her children. One has already died for her love of & allegiance to the narcissist.
So glad I found this. It's so insightful, because I'm dealing with the dilemma of listening to my intuition vs self doubts as "it's your fears, you isolate yourself, you're not living life..." Believe it or not, it's extremely difficult no matter how old you are.
The healing of Nature-Mark's description of sitting at the ocean after such an experience, and the ocean bringing him back to earth and back to his true self is the most moving for me.
WOW! This is an amazing show, I was in something that is billed as "self help" (that I cant go into) and while its not a perfect fit there are many similarities.
Thank you for this very painful topic that many will not talk about. It's not easy mentally, emotionally, and most of all physically. It hurts but it reminds us that we are alive. Because you can truly gets so completely lost it's crazy. But doing our best to stay focused to not get sucked in and continue to strengthen ourselves mentally. That is the main goal DAILY. I'm grateful for where I am in my recovery not all the way healed or out but know I'm not completely lost. PEACE BE WITH YOU ALL.
💕💕💕💕💕 I have faith we will all heal and find our spiritual ascension with the right way as well... I still get flashbacks from the cult I was unwittingly in and it's getting healed
@@skyejacques
Watch "War room". Great movie. Hope it helps you. I think you will really appreciate it.
And also with you❤️🔥
I told Joey, Straight Up, I do not want to marry him, but to be good friends. He thought a friendship was good. Over time, his complaing increased. I put up boundaries with him.
my mother and family are narcissists... my life was ruined.
Thank Goodness You guys agree about the whole POSITIVE word
I have grown to hate the word.
The worst thing ever said to me after my son died, was well something always positive comes out of something bad.
NOOOOOO wrong. My son got sick and died.
That was also 3 months after I left my Narcissist ex and was told the same by many.
Be positive it’s over, yes I physically left BUT the scares run deep.
My dear ,any one who would say that to a mother who lost her child is either a monster or a moron with a dead emotional brain 🤢🤢🤢
May you find the strength ❤️❤️❤️
My narcissist ex would always say “be positive”. It didn’t matter what was going on, I couldn’t anything less than positive around him. You just can’t share anything bad with him. Thank God it didn’t last long.
They use it todwavule your feelings, play down any issues and because ultimately they can't be bothered having your back
This is an amazing conversation. I have to admit to being fascinated and drawn to documentaries and stories about narcissism, cults, psychopathy, and the like. I am so glad to hear you bringing up the insane amount of material that is being produced for tv right now. I do notice the pattern because pattern recognition is a large part of how I understand the world, but its not something I consciously thought to do. I'm thinking about it more consciously now. I agree that victims are often portrayed as fools or as naive, and this is such a loss of an opportunity to share those peoples' strength. The one series I have seen that presents the victims as powerful was _Love Fraud_, which focused on the women who all fell prey to the same narcissistic con man. It didn't bother to show much about him outside of his role in the situation. These women are heroes and they are strong and smart. You get to see that and the perpetrator looked, to me, like a buffoon. Very well done.
So insightful! You could interview Leah Remini about the cult she got out of...
47:00 people who ridicule on social media are doing mob mentality often I believe.
Brilliant podcast. I really like listening to the men who are willing to speak out. I feel their input is invaluable. An intelligent, empathetic man who is strong and can share his feelings is like gold dust for society. Too many telling boys and young men that they have to suppress their feelings and that they're not a real man if they're not aggressive and top dog. Insightful
Dr. Ramani I would love to hear you speak with Mike Render from Scientology.
And mike up.
I like what you say about looking at the person who is harming others, with intent! No excuses for them.
The H3 podcast did interview with member of nexium, it is wild 🤯🤯
Mark is so fortunate to have a partner like Bonnie. I am an INFJ empath and also a singer/musician and can see right through a narcissist. I have a strong enough sense of self that they cannot con me and they know it. I have guided my husband through many challenging situations with the narcissists he deals with in his world. THEY ARE EVERYWHERE!
Great and courageous interview! Thank you two!
This is probably the most important and validating talk I’ve listened to on Narcissism. I just had a shock when someone in my life revealed just how extreme their viewpoint is (only one person’s needs matter). Thank you for exploring the severity of the shock when someone’s foundation and reality is suddenly shattered. I’m feeling physical symptoms from experiencing this recently. The good thing is that I’ve been through this before and have enough life experience to know that this too will pass; I will heal, and life will go on, giving me new opportunities to try again, choose again, and hopefully this time be a little bit wiser for the experience. Most importantly though, who do I choose to be today and will I fight the demons inside myself?
It´s terrible, if nobody seems to be interessted in your `story´, when you finally managed to get out! People try to find their own explanations for your strange behaviour: ´You just were sick, my familiy told me., and now you seem to become `normal´again.😪
So intelligent amazing Man!!❤
Dr Ramani, Nicky Clyne the actress that was one of Ranieres die hards who stayed in the cult under the group name the dossier project has just announced she is no longer under the spell of Keith Raniere. I hope that she reaches out to some of the ex cult e members and maybe she will reach out to you or you her. I know Sara Edmundson said she signed her up and felt bad. I don’t think we thought she would leave. She also touches on the sex situation and how he made her think having sex with him was for her own good, but how she feared he would make her sleep with him. She told him that was a huge fear she had. Yet she still slept with him when he demanded it. She wiped her web site of the dossier project his it She is R supporters and wiped other stuff, but I’m afraid the cult left her and others that left with far right wing political ideas, and I worry like Ginny Thomas and Any Coney Barrett who were both in cults and just traded that cult for the far right political Maga cult, that she has done the same as have other ex cult members. Roger Stone was involved heavily in that cults they had something they called the knife which was a media organization and they would get on far right wing shows and talk about how they could use their organization to fight trump being attacked by media, s like I said it’s cooked in their cult beliefs and had stayed with ex cult members. Nicky is obviously processing still. I wonder what made her realize that he was not a good person. She has labeled him “abusive” Here’s the link, I first found it in Reddit but she also left her statement on the Frank Report. www.reddit.com/r/theNXIVMcase/comments/123z3xx/nicki_clyne_leaves_keith_raniere_her_statement/?
😮😮😮😮😮they absolutely not all there upstairs
Dr Ramani saved me from multiple narcs. Thank you!
Mark is amazing. I watched the Vow. It was interesting.
28:17 narc bosses
Bonnie is a singer, right? Where can we hear her music???
I know that I am not worthy of ever being with affection getting called Hurricane Frances or whatever like the premier of Mississauga Ontario was too. Maybe some of us writers from Alberta Avenue community league or from some other place some day could however with affection help Mark here with free editing for him write his memoirs titled whatever he wants. Instead of only just a biography after he dies well in the future someday. After he experienced being taken advantage of by a malignant narcissistic whatever. His testimony reminds me of a situation I was in at one of the Alberta Unemployment centers here rooms which my late sister experienced too. We were subjected to computer generated and analyzed series of questions on where we are in our career journey. Instead of being offered practical information on where we should apply to obtain more employment contracts or a full time paid job in essential services based on our past work experience and educational history we both along with everyone else there in the room were offered only value judgements on how we measured up when it comes to being in control of our life compared to everyone else in the room. Followed by near the end of that series of discussions then encouragement from the leader there to leave with one of the other strangers of the opposite sex who there was getting way more positives from that leader there than us. If I hadn't trusted my intuition when refusing to go along with exchanging telephone numbers with the man a stranger to me there too and then been able to talk things over about the same with my sister Sharon then what could have happened to me and her up in Canada too just like what was going on in m in the world with a way too flexible relationship with their value system. More than one nation besides ours thanks to some getting richer alongside the richest men. That man who approached me there with his story that sounded only like one big fat lie only because I had already affected by someone like him from the same kind of occupational title and so what he was saying didn't make any sense to me given what I learned about it that he had described I might have got taken in by his good looks and by the recognition he was getting from the leader there. That guy looked eerily a whole lot like Jeffrey Epstein not long before he got arrested for the final time. Maybe he was only one of his offspring who got adopted or whatever? Who knows. I cannot remember the alias maybe he was using just to fit in there with a better chance of getting away with more crime. So much like him it left me shaking while watching the news reports about him. That news report while the NIXVM cult was getting shut down too made me wonder if there is a network of narcissists running organized crime with not as many boundary walls anymore protecting us from their life of crime and maybe having to work alongside them too in their day job getting paid in the secular world made possible now thanks to A.I.
Thank you. Watching from Alaska.
Thanks Mark and Dr. R.
"if you're feeling uncomfortable, it's working". Evil indeed. Thinking about it differently, would a reasonable person really jump to the "the burning means it's working" conclusion? Probably not. Worded like that, it sounds ridiculous.
Can’t wait for Marks film , I hope Dr. announces it . This will be eye opening . 🤔
Always love to listen to Mark Vicente. Yes, this was a cult, but these people were seekers, they wanted to become better people. And kudos to them! Ask yourself: am I in a cult right now? Currently we have a cult leader that has 50% of the American people as followers.
Once I put 2 n2 together, I realized he was Narcisstic. I had decided to cut ties with him. He did tell me that he is not good at Relationships and he cannot change. I decided to keep Joey on as a friend. I met his Mom first.
Joey always complains.
I was sick of it but because I am a good person, I. Tried to understand him. I know, I am to nice, A People Pleaser. He lives in Redding, CA.
Is the Dr had too much coffee? Seems a bit overly stimulated on this. Constant "yes, yep, emhm, thats right" is a bit distracting.
All the inconsistency in their behavior does a lot of damage because obviously nothing was enough and they can't just decide to be nice one day and then nasty the next telling you all sorts of conflicting things, that's not how it works ever under any circumstance. I just don't think i could confront the main leader of any group that does these things like Bonnie did because it's so dangerous and scary, and at work or the education system forget it they'll immediately jump on you and make a giant fuss and example out of you i wish it was always an option but it's not.
Instead i just assess the way the leader acts and then the way the other people act, and if any of them join in and the leader clearly knows what these other people are doing but yet doesn't do anything to stop them and only seems pleased while acting indifferent like they have nothing to do with any of it, then i know this is cult behaviors and the person leading all this is crazy, and you see this even in social groups which is what i've mainly dealt with. Even if the leader feins caring about it and supposedly is doing something about it they don't and then goes back to their life, and if you push more and try to bring it up again now you're suddenly the bad person and the enemy, well that again tells you what you need to know.
Then i guess i'll just leave not caring what they or anyone else thinks or the fear they may try to make me feel i've never cared about that and i just get out, and then any aftermath all you can do is figure out how to deal with that later if not i'm glad when there isn't and they just let me go so they don't put themselves into question, because by making a giant fuss out of it they are.
Thank you many things cleared my mind and questions ..i thaought im cursed so many narcism i incountered ij my life...its big help in our healing ..indeed life is beautiful after your free from abusive narcissts abused...Godbless
Isn't this guy narcissist himself? I watched one video where he is saying to audince he is narcissist
God is going to use your story and talents to set captivs free!! In a huge way. God bless you both ❤
idea for an episode: there are naturally rebellious children who are raised in toxic homes but see through the BS early on. how is the experience/effects different in the child who bought into vs rejected the nonsense early on? I consciously (intellectually) rejected religion and propaganda and authority at age 7. while the pain of abuse was there, I never got programmed, I simply planned the escape, met good folks, and became an intellectual avidly reading activist with empowering friendships. I admit addiction to books but never did the alcohol/ drug thing, never joined any political party or cultish org, and wondering if my early "catching on" prevented this??? is there research on children who are not vulnerable to indoctrination despite the abusive upbringing? I was born immune to mind control. but why?
Same here 🤓.
@@rimamehari6700 🐞🌼🏵
Same!
And I'm raising my daughter to recognize cults!
I told her she is not allowed to create, join or exit with the cult - she's 15 and can see ppls intentions and thru BS.
I hope she masters this skill and carries it w her thru out her life!
Mark still do not talk who were behind that Keith guy.
He told me I should focus on myself to get better. I agreed.
Thank you very much , Dr. Ramani and Mark.
Too dark!??? It’s the light!
Thank you, so good 🙏🏻💎
Bonnie is my shero.
Thank you
Love is complex.
Excellent 👌✨🌸
Mark Vicente tells her in part one that his greatest wound came from his childhood and without even asking him if he had truly transformed this she jumps to point out how he's obviously totally recovered. He's not recovered and it has nothing to do with Keith, its his own misunderstanding if enlightenment
Sorry the mmmhhs mmhhs are too grating I'm not sure if its down to new podcasting. Hopefully it will change over time because I would enjoy the content better.
What a baby
Almaas is the greatest philosopher on human development
So no compassion for the so called narcissist .
Absolutely not!
Thank you both for such an accurate description and report on the dynamics of true cult behavior. AND thank goodness for the Bonnie’s-of-the-world!
I went from being a devout Bhakta (devotee) to the whistleblower for not only my former teachers but for the entire umbrella and space of the non-dual culture within which many are covering for the existential harm at the hands of my former teachers.
For the longest time I resisted speaking up about this dynamic as I felt it would affect their entire trajectory of ‘awakening teachings. YET…if anyone is harmed or left out…there is no integrity.
Now I see that integrity is more important any so-called awakening to Wholeness. One can be awake to Oneness and *still* be operating in the most cultish ways exerting controls over the sovereign lives of others.
The thing that forced-my-hand…aside from being silenced (under threat)…was the *deliberate* separation of my family for the purpose of ensuring that the lies of those teachers would *never* become public knowledge.
integrityintruth.com/systemic-collusion-in-the-non-dual-field/
I wonder how many of the women who were sucked into this cult were fans of romance series like Twilight and 50 Shades of Gray, which teach girls that love is pain and you need to heal your partner with sex.