Honestly a big issue to me is that the leftover archetypes from Arc V and Vrains were just so good that the only feasible way to get past them is to power creep them. Konami has handled power creep a lot better since 7s started so we ended up in this weird limbo of new archetypes being a little too fair and old archetypes overstaying their welcome. I'm not sure about the solution but I do think Konami is headed in the right direction.
The banlist. Or some generic cards that have some more narrow or specific applications so that things that are already powerful don't really benefit from them (a good example is that one spell in DAMA that restricts you to synchro summoning only.
I have a similar issue that you just said but I do have a different perspective. I believe that if they want to push an archetype to the competitive scene, they should release 1 or 2 cards that could push those archetypes to compete the meta just like SPYRAL Master Plan and Volcanic Blaze Accelerator Cannon. I don't mind if the pushed archetype become tier 0 or one of the most powerful deck since we do have the banlist. It's unfortunate alot of the recent archetypes are really cool but they need more if they want to be a meta contender.
I'm in love with Starry Knights. Bouncing the dragon back and forth and popping everything your opponent controls is so fun. It's definitely not a meta-tier deck but I love the concept and the art is gorgeous. It's not terrible either, the protection from dark boss monsters is pretty good, and the dragon walks all over Mystic Mine by bouncing back to the hand
I haven't played the archetype myself, but if it bounces, tributes, and gets benefits against dark monsters, would Lair of Darkness be a good tech for it?
The idea of printing "stronger" archetypes in higher rarity absolutely will not work. Look at one of the strongest decks of recent times in Virtual World. Every knew it was just VFD turbo, but seeing how inconsistent the deck was, no one thought it would be that good. Hell, even look at OCG, they wrote the deck off. It was until people figured it out that they realized just how stupid VW was. Next, there's Adamancipator. People thought it was an interesting deck, but no one knew how absurdly busted the deck could be until they refined it with block dragon turbo. Compare early Adamancipator lists with the ones close to the banlist and you see a vast difference. Even Thunder Dragon back in 2019 evolved from a pure TD deck into the combo behemoth that was Danger Thunderdragon Crusadia. Even on release, people didn't really give Collosus much respect, but once testing happened, they realize what a stupid card it was. There are also just as many decks that Konami and people have high hopes for that just don't do well on release. Magical Musket is one that comes to mind. It's hard to know what a good archetype is until it is actually in the hands of the players.
Your comment doesn't really help to back your opinion but I kind of understand what you mean. If Konami did take this route (asigning rarities to archetypes) it "could"work from a business perspective. If players want to build a certain deck, they have to sink more money into the product until the acquire every card they need for an archetype. So theoretically speaking, it may work. But in terms of realism, its a flawed concept.
There's also some archetypes which are mostly common and cheap that are just one or two cards away from being meta in their own right like Impcantation - all they need is a little bit more protection and ways to circumvent the limit on using the extra deck - they're already powerful enough and consistent enough and they are the only ritual engine which rarely bricks Suship after its second wave could be meta; it's crazy consistent making top archetypes more expensive is just going to lead to people being more creative with common cards
Some things can be seen as having reasonable potential. For example a warrior deck that's still capable of taking advantage of the historical warrior support will be able to do something. A dragon deck that can use the dragon support. They've had to restrict dragon support because of dragon link. A spellcaster deck that can use spellcaster support. The newer archetypes have less historical support (like Cyberse) but they do get some good stuff, like Cynet Mining.
@@freman007 yeah I agree, cards like Isolde and RotA can make it harder to balance warrior archetypes since the archetype will access to those on top of whatever consistency stuff it has in archetype
I don't mind having weaker archetypes come out tbh. There's a certain fun in building a deck not because it's decent but rather because you genuinely like its themes and trying to push them to the limit. My problem with YGO archetypes is that we've reached a point where I feel we should start slowing down the release of new decks. Instead, we should dedicate about half of that R&D space to fill out older decks for a while. There's certain archetypes with less than 8 unique cards. Why not use the 6 or so slots a new deck would have used to support those instead and just push the new deck back a little bit? I feel that right now we have so many incomplete or disfunctional archetypes that I'd be fine slowing down new releases to give those a new wave.
I wholeheartedly agree. People are BEGGING for support for their favorite type/archetype etc and what does Konami do? Print Starry Night and Duel Avatar. Older decks could use starters, recovery cards, etc., lets get them those
So much this. Imagine how much impact decks like malicevorous and venom could have if they actually got some respectable support. If heroes and the like can have 80+ cards in the archetype, things like solfachord and nepthys could damn sure get some powerup cards to play with.
@@antonbrown17 Give hero a pass. Hero is only the biggest because it has the most trash cards. It has 5 archetypes in it, and 3 of them (Evil Hero, Masked, and Vision) are still either half-baked, or missing cards, when they're supposed to be separate decks.
We ran some tournaments at locals a few times where the theme was that you could only play decks that have never topped a major event before, or another where you had to play "Table 500" decks. It was really fun cause it allowed the decks that never really get to see the light of day to top.
Once master duels is implemented, we should get objective data on frequency of cards used. Maybe an alt format could ban the top 100~200 cards used in a competitive match.
mtg arena accelerated a lot the "solving of the meta" on mtg and highlighting problem cards since it was released. though about their frequent bans it was probably also the fault of poorly balanced card design
The problem with that is you're basically just going back in time then. Can't play the top 200 cards? Just play the next best cards. You're going to still be facing stupid decks. Just look at Farfa's tournament where he banned almost every key card in every archetype and every handtraps. Power creep is dumb.
@@ShiaSpirit Altergeist, Cyber Dragon, Dogmatika, Drytron, Shaddoll, Invoked, PK, VW, Zoodiac etc. would have more than 5 in-archetype cards banned. Meanwhile, Inzektors, Evil Twins, Witchcrafter, Nekroz, Madolche etc. would be untouched. I don't think we would just go back in time. Older cards like HFD, one for one, book of moon, twin twister, allure, knightmares etc. would be banned as well. It would force using in-archetype or subpar replacements for such cards. Regardless, it would create an alt format for people not fond of current format.
@@Kaos9696 That's what I mean by going back in time. You can ban top 200 cards now, we basically go back to 2018 and we're back to playing ABC and Pendulum Magicians and Paleo Frogs. You also make really powerful solitaire decks that much stronger because handtraps no longer exist. And as you mentioned, Nekroz.... Look at how absurd and stupid playing against Unicore would be. That deck is so consistent, but if you lower the power ceiling of every deck and get rid of options, Unicore because an almost impossible to beat monster. YuGiOh is just this type of game.
My problem is the way that they "support" archtypes. You come out with TCG exclusives like the mutants and then just disregard supporting them. But then you take something out of a side set like live twins and then you give them support for the next four or five sets after their pack already came out. And then you make a deck like salad which is a starter deck but it plays so repetitive that it could be better because of how it is supported in itself.
The problem with a lot of Archetypes is that there's too many of them that gets little to no support to the point were "What's the point?" in making them in the first place. Plus, there's other Archetypes that get too much support which should have put that energy to Archetypes that seriously needs it instead.
In the Yugioh OCG structures manga, you get to see the characters playing different archetypes, like Tenyi, Virtual World, and Ursartic. I like that and I love reading the strategies afterwards.
It would be nice it we had something like pokemon showdown where either the cards individually or the archetypes are sorted into tiers. And when you play in a lower tier, cards from higher tiers simply can't participate. The problem is that this requires a lot of research and sorting, but if it works, you will have a tier based system. It's just a ton of work.
I have heard this idea as I like the idea, but I sadly don't think it is viable. Remember in 2016 me and my brothers made a list that had 150+ deck/archetypes and it even with us mot aruging on mostly anything, there was over 100 archetype in the lowest tier because tier 4 was that much of a gap despite being stuff that might not even be considered rouge in a 2016 format. But I think staples also massively can effect a decks viably because a noticable trait among our list was almost anything in t4 and lower lose thier turn to a strike or lose to anything higher because of strike when otherwise it was doable. I think it would need a borderline for cards and decks and there would need to be a lot of tiers because there was like 2 massive gaps in our tier 5. And this was just in 2016. I think past formats are usually the best way to play older stuff, but showdown type list could have potential of sorts. Lower tier banlist might be insane though. To elaborate more on some of the gap I mentioned in what me and my brothers did to kinda show it needs a ton of tiers. Battle boxers was in t5. With arcana force. Now on surfaves someone might say make sense but then think about how boxers probably always win even if arcana are on auto head as an 8-2 match up. Now think how mist things usable have a 6-4 match up but probably have a sub 5 match vs boxers. Then one would ask why not ban boxers to horderline. The problem was in the context of our list, boxers might not be a top 10 t5 deck(keep in mind theres a gap between top of t5 and bottom of t4). That's the power level some tiers will have to deal with unless there is at least 10 tiers. Possibly more.
The main issue with that is that besides archetypes being strong you have to now determine which specific cards cant be used. But then some decks that are "shit" are still better than other decks that are "shit" then you can take that deck and add high tier staples and it would be better
@@TraaaaaasshBooooaaaatttt Exactly. When I mentioned 2016 in my rant of making massive tiers, strike was this card. Bad decks in the bottom tier could beat better decks in it purely because almost nothing at all in the tier could recover froma strike that turn and it is at 3. So it was possible to lose just because they drew more strikes.
This could actually be a reality with master duels coming out. we will have hard data on every card played and they could sort it out somehow with that info
I've seen this idea get tossed around a bit, but I think it runs into a problem that's a little awkward to explain. Basically, I'll use the Pokemon tiers as an example just to make things simple (granted, I don't know a vast amount about the Pokemon tiers, so I may get some things wrong.) So let's say that at the top we have something like AG in Pokemon. Use whatever cards you want, it doesn't matter. Anything goes. Sorta like Yu-Gi-Oh with no ban list I suppose. Easy enough. Underneath that we have Ubers, so I suppose this would just be the TCG as it stands with the banlist. Next we have OU, so the same thing but with the extremely strong cards banned. Then UU, same thing, the list goes on. The problem is that, inside of those different tiers, there will always be a couple of strategies that stand above the rest and become the meta. They're not strong enough to compete with Ubers decks, but they're dominating OU. Let's just say, for now, that we move them to Ubers just to get rid of the problem. Then OU gets taken over by the next best strategies. Rinse and repeat. No matter what format you're playing in or what rules you're using, there will always be that one strategy that stands out above the others that sucks to play against. That's just the way it works. For Pokemon, in AG you have things like Mega Rayquaza. In Ubers, you've got things like Xerneas, in OU maybe there's Mega Gengar or something. I don't know if those are actually correct at all, but hopefully it gets the point across.
The thing is, players who go to locals or play competitively are vastly outnumbered by people who play tabletop ygo- people who buy packs and build decks from those, adding Free Agent cards from those packs to bolster up their current "pile" deck. The most people who play YGO LOVE what we consider "filler" cards/deck themes because they can build a whole deck after opening a bunch of product.
More recently I've learned these low tier decks work weirdly well together especially when they fill the gap for each other. Examples, Mekk-Knight Altergeist and Crusadia Nephthys And the plays are always varied. Personally I think the issue is how we deck build. Its almost mathematic and that's boring. It's either a field of negates, board wipes, OTKs, or Mystic Mine all of which are fine but theirs little interaction between players And I think it's on the players to change that, not Konami. In fact I think Konami's focus on Normal/Non-effect Monsters is meant to spur new ways of thinking about decks. I don't think it's working super well tho
I think the big issue with it being up to the players is everyone wants to win (let’s be honest) and playing decks that have the most negates, an otk, or stall have better chances of winning. Why play a deck like Deskbots when it has no chance of going against something like Tribrigade?
When i first got into Yugioh, i was kind of suprised how....strict most cards are. Before yugioh, i played many other TCG's so it was strange for me that soooo many cards only work with specific cards in their own archetype. Wish there would be a bit more freedom. Maybe some weaker archetypes would be stronger too if they could branch out a bit more~
The strictness comes from the fact that in the early days of yugioh there was very little deck variety, "good stuff" decks, as they were called, dominated the meta, there wasn't any kind of color system like in other card games to restrict deck building so you just crammed all the good stuff into one deck, In hindsight Konami could've focused harder on types and attributes, which already existed, to give decks more variety, but instead they doubled down on the idea of archetypes, so now there's definitely variety, but it's also much much stricter than the freedom offered in other card games, it basically went from one extreme to the other.
The ice barrier starter deck; i bought 3 and added my own extra deck cards and it shocks me how flexible the cards they gave were. I last played around 2012 before returning this month.
So here is the best way I can put it: Older archetypes need support more than we need new archetypes. We have so many good and powerful archetypes that anything not given that extra wave or two of support, is near guaranteed to see no play. Thunder dragons used to be 2 cards, and they created an entire, competitive archetype around it. I'm not saying everything should be able to compete with the meta. That takes some of the fun out of playing the stronger decks, or pulling rare/competitive cards from packs. The support some decks receive is also too weak to increase the playability of the deck they support. Placing "hard once per turn" and "only one effect per turn" on cards that could be either soft once per turns, or just a "once per turn" instead of "one effect per turn". That's my thoughts, y'all have a good one. (Sorry if this is without message or clear direction, I struggle trying to do this kind of thing)
I fully agree with this, but I wouldn't really know how to fix it The Pokemon community did it pretty well I think; they have tiers and the Pokemon allowed are there by usage. If Pokemon get too dominant they get banned to a higher tier, and there is a 'council' that alongside statistics motivate why certain pokemon are banned or not. Of course it takes forever to set that up, but I think something like that can work in Yugioh!
Tiers work pretty easily in the Pokémon video games because there's a limit to how many moves, abilities, stats, and items each individual mon can get as well as basically every team ever having exactly 6 members. A tier list in Yugioh (especially paper Yugioh) would be a bit harder because of the number of different variables to account for is staggering in comparison. If Yugioh was like one of those card games with factions that cannot mix as per the rules of the game (Summoner Wars comes to mind) then it'd be easier to rank but I feel like there's too many variables to make such a clear cut ranking system. That said, I would still LIKE for such a system to exist. I just don't know how viable it would be.
That's a good idea. I don't think they would spend the money to create the resources for that when the way they handle it currently still generates money. Until they start really hemorrhaging their player base, they won't change much of how they operate
@@otakufreak40 I agree it would be very difficult, probably why no fans have tried this. In my head the tiers would mostly be reserved for bosses, starters, and staples; Maybe El Shaddoll Construct and Winda are OU, but the Shaddoll Engine itself might still see play in lower tiers, using the Fire Shaddoll fusion to send Volcanic Shell to the Graveyard, or something like that. Maybe Thunder Dragon becomes a low-tier synchro deck (like they were in Duel Links for a bit, iirc) if Titan is made UU - but are still playable as Titan Control in that tier. Can't imagine going through all 10k+ cards for that though, and how many tiers there would even be...
it's a good idea. The one thing is that it's a lot of work. Every card that get's released needs to end up somewhere on the list. Even stuff like flame manipulator.(S tier card btw). A way to start would be to release the tiers 1 by 1. Start with the highest tier and once that one is established introduce the one below it. Place everything that isn't used or good enough in untiered. The meta shift once new cards will be released is the biggest problem. Any card can go from low tier to high tier. Another issue is that, by taking away 1 or 2 cards from a deck will lower that deck's power level considerably. So with every card removed, a deck's power level needs to be reevaluated. Even drytron is garbage with only 1 card in it's archetype.
Konami just needs to try to support all archetypes. There's so many archetypes in Yugioh, instead of spending the time and money creating a dozen new archetypes each year, release support for older archetypes and maybe only release 6 new ones a year, or heck, 1 new archetype every 3-4 months. It's a shame that some archetypes might not get a new card for YEARS. For most archetypes, you're lucky to get one new in-archetype card a year, and most of the time, it's not very good, definitely not close to OP, which alot of archetypes need: very good or OP cards every couple of years to keep them playable. Even with archetypes that dominated the meta 2-3 years ago, they've gotten power crept to the point of barely being rouge (Salamangreat, Sky Striker), and then you got archetypes that receive a bunch of support almost every year like Dark Magician (which is understandable to a certain point, goes without saying it's a fan favorite). Konami really needs to make it a part of their mission to support all archetypes to make sure they aren't neglected and basically unplayable in a few years time, if they ever even were playable in the first place. And it wouldn't be too hard. 2-3 GOOD in-archetype cards is enough to make an archetype just better enough to be played without insta-losing.
New archetypes that come out are either top tier meta material or casual deck material and not even capable of beating current rogue decks and no way in hell to compete with current meta decks and strats...Nothing in between
PAUUUUUL!!! I GOT IT ... MAYBE, Konami should have a creative tournament, along side the regular format... where the creative format would be point system.... and implemented to it a creativity marker, the more an archetype and even a particular card will lose you points,,, winning will get you points, and maybe even being respectful to your opponent, or getting Into character, or passion will get you points as well ... judges could be random volunteers. That way we can go all out with dragoon, droplets, ash blossom and then turn around and play berry magicians mixed with lair of darkness 🤣
really love the mathmech archetype and I am trying to build a most optimized competitive version and a more casual version. I feel like it is slightly worse than phantom knights but more powerful than a deck like tenyi or dual avatar. any advice on mathmechs is appreciated!!
I feel you bro. When Chaos impact dropped in 2019 I was scrolling through the card list and comparing dragonmaid to mathmech I knew I wanted mathmech to the deck I wanted to bring to a local. Unfortunately, I've gotten stomped at my locals because the deck has no recursion power, handtraps kill the extra deck monsters when they try to use their effects and worst of all it locks into cyberse monsters. My best advice is to use other generic cyberse monsters like parallel exceed and linkslayer to set up small boards and support it with trap cards cuz this deck is a glass cannon for sure. I personally have gravitated to Code talkers. Being able to search Spells and traps and keep my link summoning under 5 summons is perfect for lower tier competitive decks
If you need help with optimizing mathmech, you should join the mathmech discord, this also applies to other decks you want to build in the future, join there respective discord. Players on the Discord and I could help.
I haven't done a lot of deckbuilding over the past few years; but, I have absolutely fallen in love with Ogodiac. It brings reptiles to a new level, the art is absolutely gorgeous and actually makes the venom boss monsters semi-playable. However, its super easy to negate making it not too great to use in a tournament setting. But I find it neat and that's all that matters to me.
I play a predominantly Lunalight deck based off of duel links, I know duel links doesn’t necessarily translate to irl decks but I’d love to hear your opinion on it, I find it extremely fun to play and honestly I feel it would do well in certain circumstances when played right. Just curious what you think of them and where they fall in terms of how good they are competitively
I'm new to the game so tell me if this is stupid but a "weight class" system that I thought of would simply be time frame. Whenever the cards were released. Playing from 03-07 only would be fun, 08-12, 13-17 etc
That sounds past format with catches but could be interesting for some time periods. The main issure I see is there's a lot of potential to make some of the strong decks better because less of their outs are in that time period. Overall probably not the best idea.
What's the Differences between the Obelisk The Tormentor and also Slifer The Sky Dragon from the Newest Yugioh Structure Decks and the One's from the new Yugioh Set Kings Court Team APS?
Bought 2 Ancient Guardian boxes earlier this year. Been trying to build Ogdoadic deck and Ursarctic deck strictly from the cards in the packs, but having trouble. I think they're both an interesting archetype for deck foundation for sure, but need a lot of outside support (or maybe I'm just a bad deck builder.) That being said, I'm returning to YGO this year from playing at the beginning at the game and it is crazy how even these archetypes feel kind of underpowered compared to meta-decks, they'd blow any deck from the pre-gx days out of the water. Hoping to go to my first locals sometime soon as an old ass man with one of these decks.
With what I've played and been up against in the Casual scene, some of the hands that come out are obscene, a lot of my decks were forced to adapt to such a situation but if I could pick a archetype that I could quite happily keep playing with adjustments it would be Geargia, adding in things like Cyber Dragon and Trains really does enhance it.
I been playing Speedriods, Predaplants, Phantom Knights, Lunalights, and Also Performer Pals with a little bit of the Odd Eyes Dragons and Odd Eyes Magician's in it too also as well too!
I tried a challenge where me and my friend made decks that only had 1 monster type (fish, zombie, wyrm etc) even in extra and excluding handtraps, unless they match the type too. We did it to kinda see which monster type is strongest on its own. It was lots of fun (and spoiler: it was warriors and dinos). When we tried to do something similar with online strangers, it was met with negativity and messages like "what is the purpose?".
Hey Paul, you make a great point but I think you may be forgetting Yu-Gi-Oh Duelists of the Roses. They matched you up based on deck cost. Each card had a numerical value based on it's level of playable intensity. Though Duelists of the Roses isn't a cannon format in the Yu-Gi-Oh TCG, the idea of matching deck costs was a great way of getting a fair game and a rather fun one. I play the TCG like that with my friends. Each card has a number called it's card cost, totaling out a deck cost. The Marincess deck cost for example, would be in the 70s, where Drytron would be in the hundreds. It would make for more fair & fun gameplay in my experience & opinion.
So I got back into the game a few months before MR5 was revealed (Long story but MR4 killed the decks I played so I just left and said "I'll be back when my decks have good links"). I was pointed towards tenyi and up to this day it is my favourite deck to play. The art (imo) is so nice and the deck itself actually surprised me at how consistent it is and what you can do with it. It also grew with my skill and I can build it multiple ways... man I love that deck
Honestly MR4 straight up murdered my decks (Tzolkin Metalfoes for one), not only by the banlist, but also the MR4 mechanic. Then add into the fact that FTKs were rampant in MR4. I just said hell no
I love my Rikkas, and they can handle against some meta decks (Drytron, and Shaddoll), but there is definitely a disparity between them and several of the common meta staples (like Dragoon, and Avramax), leading many to not give them a chance. But they have good strategies and cards, like Rikka Flurries which can actually get around monster immunity effects.
Different formats would definitely help the game. Look at Mtg and Poke'mon. They have multiple formats and offer SO many ways to play and allows the usage of "weaker" cards. I love ygo (mostly cause of nostalgia) but damn the lack of formats and creativity is so unfortunate. I STILL want a "Deck Masters" format like EDH/Commander from Mtg but for YGO. The ways cards are designed kinda limit the creativity though which sucks.
There is creativity in yugioh iv been topping a competetive locals with spellbook playing agaisnt pk, tri brigate, shaddoll invoked and prank kids by looking at the deck finding out what the issues are and adding in suporting engines and powerful staples so it can keep up dont play a poorly built deck thats really old without good staples and good theory
I believe it's a little too vague but a FIRE Burn deck using Flamvells as an engine was one I built. Haven't gotten to test it yet but seems really fun
Some archetypes are never finished, or their core weakness is never circumvented with any kind of support. Meanwhile there are archetypes that ARE supported and thus, get tournament play. Shaddolls, Tri-Brigade, Drytron, the list goes on. I’d love to play some older archetypes if they ever got any kind of legacy support that helps them. With Link VRAINS packs I was so excited thinking Tellarknights would get a link or some kinda support to help them. I’m STILL waiting. Meanwhile Shaddolls get a link, and a a ton of support cards and they’re insane.
The problem with this is how Konami monetizes 'Yu-Gi-Oh!' When they release archetypes, they will purposely not release all the cards to support it. So, they can keep whatever for the next set or two. If I were to compare it to Magic the Gathering, at least up until the more recent years. MtG had it where when a new set comes out, it fully commits to it. Cards come out that fully support it. And if there are individual cards that also work with other themes or decks, then it is coincidental. But Yu-Gi-Oh! have to constantly purposefully release one or two cards for popular archetypes in a whole set. As such the set isn't committed to an archetype, and not enough support cards for new archetypes to bring them to the same power as older archetypes who have like one or two cards every set. Konami just needs to slow down with support for older archetypes and focus.
Ur missing the point man. Even if support is held back for other sets. Almost all of the time, It's what the archetype is introduced with that determines whether its top tier or not. The support is nice, but isn't a big game changer when the archetype is already really strong upon release. A couple of support cards in later sets almost never makes a deck good enough to compete with the meta
@@astrograph7875 I made that point. Because of how Konami monetizes Yu-Gi-Oh!, if something already starts strong, and continues to have support it remains strong. As such, newer sets, because they have to share space in the new sets with old archetypes too, there is no longer enough room to make new archetypes actually strong. If they're not strong, then they're not popular. If they're not popular, then Konami doesn't print more support for them. As such, Konami needs to stop with support on the older stuff and fully commit to a new archetype first. If there is no focus, then there will never be a change.
@@ArcDragoon I think a good solution would be mini sets to support old arctyoes with suitable reprints. Main sets have new archtypes with few older archtype support cards support + plua generic strong one
The thing is that the magic comparison isn't all that fair at this point, Yugioh doesn't have set rotation, which is why their deck ideas can stay as long as they wish for, any archetype is eternal in the game, meanwhile, Magic rotates the usable pool of cards every certain time, which makes any series of cards needing to come out completely as an entire deck by itself, because if they wait, it would be pointless since it would mean the deck gets less of it's lifespan actually complete. I think konami sometimes thinks that just a few cards are enough to build a deck on release and I don't really agree with it, but it's just something we gotta deal with thanks to how yugioh archetypes are eternal.
@@madamered1103 No the comparison to MtG is fully suitable because MtG also has an eternal format. The difference between Yu-Gi-Oh and MtG is the fact that Yu-Gi-Oh has an anime. And as such the true trapping is that Yu-Gi-Oh has to comply to the anime on some level. The game mechanics are bound to the show, the archetypes are bound to the show, the popularity is bound to the show, etc... As such, unlike MtG that is not bound to a show, it is actually limited in scope of the card pool. MtG doesn't care in that sense of "archetype", sure each card may belong to a color pool, but that's only for flavor. MtG sets are only bound by themes of the set. If the set is about werewolves and vampires, then that's what it'll only be about, it focuses on the theme. Yu-Gi-Oh sets try to sell a little bit at a time for each archetype because they're shown in the anime. Then it gets worse for archetypes that are either original from the anime or were so one time use in the anime that the card pool is like less than a dozen cards. Then old archetypes take up more slots because unfortunately they're popular due to nostalgia from the anime, example being Blue-Eyes or Dark Magician. The anime and limitations of Yu-Gi-Oh will always be this.
I'm rather new to yugioh but would an alternate game style of only commons work? MTG alternate game styles are often played by the players for years before seeing any kind of support or official sanction. That in mind maybe an unofficial common only style of game would be a fun boundary to try and play within?
Not sure if this counts but been messing with the Lyrilusc engine in Tri-Brigades as of late and I was actually surprised how diverse the lines of play get compared to more popular options like the Zoodiac variant or the pure one with Rescue Cat. Easily the most fun I've had with Tri-Brigade so far and I cannot wait for Synchro Storm to release so this build gets its power buff.
They just need to create cards that like discard one card of an archetype and draw 2 or 3 cards or more cards like charge of the light brigade to setup the graveyard and search. However with those new cards have a restriction that says for the rest of this turn you can only activate cards with that archetype in its card text. Or create a painful choice/snake rain specific to an archetype and lock you into the archetype for the turn.
The only issue with this is that it becomes a plus and minus issue that's dictated by konami. It comes down to which archetypes receive the best or most support. And in the end everyone will just play that archetype in the metagame. But in general you're right they need to support dead archetypes that have potential rather than create new ones. It's funny konami sells everyone the DM blue eyes nostalgia but refuses to tap into older archetypes as frequently as they should.
@@Creative.Pursuit That’s why I added a restriction to only play a specific archetype for the rest of the turn. Kind of balances it out. I get what you are saying though. Older archetypes do need more support. It’d be cool to see more lightsworn, sylvan, or naturia support.
Also maybe there could be two world wide tournaments. 1 of them is the regualr one we already have and the other one is for rouge decks. It has a different banlist and certain high teir decks are not allowed. This allows for meta to continue while rouge players can have thier own fun. Kind of like how the tcg and ocg are split
Recent archetypes that I played: Drytron (On a budget). There are not a whole lot of new archetypes that catch my fancy at the moment. I do like how Kobami has been printing support for older archetypes. I will be trying to make a Junk Speeder Stardust type deck in the near future. I also would like a Black Rose Dragon deck but I cannot seem to figure out a good enough build to play vs my friends. They all tend to play rogue and meta decks.
Before Linkross got banned I played Drytron and used The World to skip the opponent's turn. It was really funny to see when I could OTK them the next turn.
I personally play Harpies and Plunder Patroll, I know they aren’t top tier decks or anything but by building these decks several different ways I’ve found ways around some of the meta. With harpies I can beat drytron but it could take awhile to get going. Other meta decks I’ve been able to get around was prank kids and the non pure tribrigade decks. Having access to cards like apollosa, dragoon and simorgh makes the meta a little less annoying as a Harpie player. With plunder patroll I haven’t really played them competitively yet because I couldn’t find a white aura whale to save my life lol finally got one and gonna run them this weekend at locals. I did play test plunder last night at our local shop and was able to beat traptrix/dogmatika and did fairly well against dinos. The only bad thing about plunder is that we don’t have an earth element or a wind element ship, if we had those this archetype would vastly improve.
Red dragon archfiend; I recently built the deck for a "casual" or rogue night with friends & it was so much more fun than I ever expected... yugioh needs different formats going forward "low tier", "teams" , maybe a duel links "styled" banlist... it could be a pain to implement, but once the ball is rolling there's no limit to what Konami could do
I’ve always wanted to use gem knights and because of master duel I’ve finally been able to. I love that deck so much it’s so much fun to play. Throwing fusions together left and right.
My two favorite decks are Shiranui and Mayakashi, leaning more towards Mayakashi. They are both really fun, with great lore and art, but get curbstomped by a lot of the other decks. I would love to be able to play one or both at tournaments, but would most likely get demolished.
I completely agree. I still have a Gravekeeper's deck that I build, back in 2014. But it's in NO way a meta deck that wouldn't survive. I did take it to a local's back in 2019 (when i came back to yugioh) and got smashed by so many different decks that I had never heard of. But still, it's my favorite deck and I love it!
Haven't played Yu gi oh in a while and just getting back into it. But something I was wondering about as a fix or a thought would be what pokemon smogen does with pokemon tier list like overused, underused etc tiers. And possibly apply this to archetypes. So you can then determine which tier type the duel will be based on.
That would be a good idea, but I'm not sure how effectively it is. For Pokemon, you limit certain types of Pokemon. For archetypes which are composed on certain decks, that would be a question what cards are consider that archetypes or how much cards would be consider that archetypes.
I agree, I recently build an Orcust-Appliancer deck and an Ammoephage-DracoSlayer one. Just for fun. Pretty cheap builds. Never gonna win anything competitive with that. But, what about Konami came up with a weighting system that gives value to each card (like, if its an extender X value, a searcyer Y value and so on) so your deck ends up with a total of points. Then, there would be tournaments with a max deck points restrictions. And the advanced or tier 1 tournament would be unrestricted just like it is right now. IDK, the you could compete with your fun deck against other fun decks.
What I think would work well would be something like Pokémon showdown for cards where each card would be ranked at a certain tier and you can compete in whatever tier your highest ranked card is in. That way staples can ruin fun deck matches
This comment is underrated. I agree that a showdown style tier list (although I admit it seems difficult to define (for me at least) where the tier divisions would be) is an excellent way to divide cards. For those who may be unfamiliar, Pokémon Showdown is a browser based Pokémon Battle Simulator. The Pokémon are divided into different tiers and formats. This allows lesser used and less powerful Pokémon to not only stand out, but even become heavyweights or powerhouses in their own tiers.
An issue with tbis is that there have been many cases where an eh deck from the past becomes really good in the present or a eh card in the past becomes really good. So tiering cards and decks on an official level kind of caps their potential
Magic has a format called pauper, which only uses common cards. It'd be cool to try something similar with Yu-Gi-Oh. Maybe the archetypes could internal levels. Like their common and rare cards can do some things, and then they have secrets and ultras that take the same archetype to another level.
In my locals they hold a once a month event called no meta. They ban a bunch of cards used on meta decks that make them broken. So for example you still have access to tribeigade but without revolt.
Currently building Krawler and Tindangle decks to play a "Table 500" series with my friends with locals, and Vylons for my own "Let's Make This Competitive" series just because these 3 archetypes are so weird and funky
As a guy who fell out of following YGO but tries to loosely follow along I feel like they need to break some of their rules and establish some more rulesets in regards to establishing tier lists similar to Pokemon OR as a community thing to establish tiers (again Pokemon) like how there are whole sets of tiers as to what archetypes are considered stronger than others. That way you allow lower tier decks to breathe and try out new things. Potentially having a lower tier deck "play up" with higher decks but not letting higher tier decks "play down". If that makes any sense
Maybe you could hold a live-stream and duel with other Yugitubers and/or subscribers to demonstrate what your proposed format would look like. I know I would want to see it.
Discovering archetypes pretty much fully got me on board the yugioh train after only being mildly interest in it for my entire life! I discovered evil eye and witchcrafters from duel links and I've just been loving the game when I play against friends who also play archetype decks. Recently I've been interested in gimmick puppet too! I feel like it's not all that great especially when faced with effect negations but putting out a 3000 attack xyz in one turn just feels so fun to do.
@@randomprofile5853 Yeah as cool as the original leo is you're kind of giving up a lot for an instant win effect that could be really easily stopped lol
@@beepybop3187 Well, Chronomally got support in Dawn of Majesty so hopefully they make more support soon + Quinton's Dyson Sphere deck needs an upgrade. The deck is too fragile although it's funny OTK-ing with Giant Hunter & Grinder especially going 2nd against an XYZ deck xD
Would be nice to have a format where you could only play in archetype cards and have access to a limited pool of non archetype staples to fill out the deck.
I love playing Witchcrafter because they have great synergy with their spells and graveyard effects but I’m sure I would get slapped up, down and sideways if I played against meta decks. It’s a shame cuz they’re really fun to play with and I love the art. Feel like you’re onto something with the weight classes but unfortunately I don’t think anything would ever happen :(
What if the person going first can not use handtraps on the second players turn, is just allowed to put up negates with monsters and traps ? I am a casual.
I managed to stall out a HERO (mostly Destiny) player with Dream Mirrors. Game 1 took like 30 minutes lol. We were down to about 15-18 cards each, though unfortunately I didn't draw into my Recap OR Pot of Avarices so I wasn't able to recur my losses...but it was fun, though. It's fun when I can play archetypes against certain Top Tier decks without much pimping (no excessive hand traps/staples) and have them actually do fairly well. Are these decks going to top events? Probably not, but as long as I can make the top tier players earn that win and not get FTK'd in the process? Then that's a victory on my part xD
The best part of Yugioh Archetypes for me is they almost always have some sort of lore to them, making it not only fun to play but also interesting to collect. A lot of my decks that I enjoy to play the most I don't play against people at locals but just with closer friends who play the same type of "fun decks" but I agree it would be cool if Konami could somehow (No idea how!) make different levels of tournament tiers. I think until that happens, it just comes down to your locals and/or friends to organise these lower-tier events.
I've been playing a battle royal format, like MTG's commander, with my friends. We all play different decks, non meta, meta, low tier, and we've gotten pretty fun duels regardless of the difference of power.
I feel like the idea of weight classes falls into the category of reasoning that you mentioned during the "casual vs competitive" video. I feel like if you want to play something that is not as powerful as the top tier decks, you just have to find people to play it with, and not expect the competitive side to follow this type of playing. Outside of tournaments, I totally agree that there should be some sort of official Konami list that you can play with friends or local card shops, where it's not about the year that cards came out in, it's about the strenght of the deck itself
Played a fair amount of a few non-meta decks that are fun to play. Time thief, Springans, S-Force, Sunavalon, Mechabots, Charmers/Magistus, With all of them, the issue is pretty simple: if you don't play 10 hand traps and a couple meta traps, you just have no negates. If your opponent doesn't have any either, that's fine, but if they do, they cancel your plays, and some of these decks have no way to play once they get negated once during their combo, and then your opponent just steamrolls you. The way I see it is simple: archetype cards should have more negates or chain-link protection effects so you can play them without suffering for not playing a quarter of your deck as non-archetypal negates. That's the only way to make them viable without having to ban a couple dozen cards that were originally intended to compensate for archetype weaknesses and let them focus more on combos with the new archetypes than on negations. I get that these cards are supposed to even the playing field by saying "everyone can play these" but the game isn't fun when it's focused on preventing your opponent from playing and being prevented from playing yourself. This only gets worse when your hand is mainly these cards and your first turn is just set 2 face down and pass. Another thing we need is archetypes with more ways to play past the first negate. Sunavalon does this great because you have many ways to keep going, and that's also why I expect it to be a good rogue deck once it gets burst of destiny support. However, on the other side of the table they're making Magistus a massive negation deck that can pretty much only be popped by generic negations. Twin twisters, dusters, Veiler, Ghost Ogre, inf imp, they can all take out that new Zoroa. Yet archetypes usually have their negation in the extradeck, which he counters on turn 1. (To be fair, that deck will still be bad going second, it will rarely be able to get that syncrho monster out if the opponent knows what it does). On the no follow-up side of things, in what I played, Springans and S-Force really suffer from any form of negation. S-Force need to get out at least 3 bodies to get their link monster which has 1 negate, and then be lucky enough to not have needed to use their Gravatino search to get anything other than S-Froce Chase to get another negate, despite that search usually being used to get a Bridgehead which then can only search a monster, which you have no way of summoning until the next turn, so it doesn't really do much in terms of combo continuation. Springans can easily go into a F0 Utopic Future Draco, but that's by sacrificing everything they build during their turn, leaving them with 1 negate, and rendering the effect of their field spell useless during their opponent's turn. This also requires building towards, with cards such as Machine Duplication, Salamangreat Al'Miraj+Parallel Exceeds, King of feral imps, and others, which just flood the deck making it so you either don't play generic negates, or you do at the cost of reducing the odds of accessing your field spell, which the archetype heavily builds towards as it is in essence their starter. These decks were both cool in concept, but those concepts ignored the overall state of the game, making them only useful in their own bubble. I guess that's why BLVO is considered to be so bad; only good things to come out of that set are the cards that aren't a part of the sets 4 main archetypes. Even the metalfoes and windwitch support it gave us will see more use in the long run than the armed dragons, springans, s-force, and war rocks.
First thing that comes to mind for me is Pokémon Showdown style tiers where they get separated by usage but that seems nearly impossible in this case. In Showdown it's done by usage of a specific Pokémon but for archetypes, literally including one card from another could see the deck be massively different but neither are terribly strong pure. Not to mention many cards are generic, belonging in no specific archetype (or at least not yet). So I really can't see how that would work. Best suggestion is maybe they could deem tiers based on specific card usages after considering deck usage stats but none of this sounds very doable by a person. Or even an algorithm since sure deck A and B might use some of the exact same cards, but deck A and B could very well be using them differently so how do you weight that correctly even as a human, let alone an algo?
I’ve been playing with an aroma garden deck that I absolutely love but it would be slaughtered in a tournament setting. Getting past the first round or two is the only issue. I’m thankful for decks that I think are fun and powerful even if not “meta”. Earth machines is what I play the most and I’d say is also one of the best “rogue” decks. I’ve also been playing pendulum magicians simply because I love the things that the deck can do.
i usually take 10+ decks to locals with a range from prank kids to cloudians. that way if there is a newer player, or someone wants to mess around I can play sometime appropriate.
That _BRAVE TOKEN_ series are among of the coolest themes. I sadly think that BECAUSE of how distinct that theme has to be, you run into the issue of "style over substance". I think the Gunkan Suship 🍣 🍛 Archetype borders on the style with its visuals and certain effects like the Field Spell making your opponent PAY for damages equal to the Xyz monster(s) Defense and how when you combine the proper topping, you get bonus effects and all that good stuff. It's not like unplayable because the cards while small in number work fairly well. Brave Token series NEEDS the Brave Token generator every game and have the token protected at all times to do _anything_ and it's a shame because otherwise, it's a really cool theme. Exorsisters was recently revealed and for personal reasons, I really appreciate the aesthetics and how their effects work with each other and how they go from normal hard working girls to battle ready demon exorcists (by "ranking up") It borders on style and substance and it has potential but it's NOT quite there yet I think. So yeah... Cool themes and archetypes but most of them are style over substance and that's just how it is sometimes.
Yeah no. This is a great conversation to have. Perhaps in another world more if not all decks would see play given they received the proper support to combat differing decks. The only thing is each deck realistically should have a weakness. But that's where those few cards and staples that come out work to balance things somewhat. But then again.. They aren't always the end game as far as being solutions overall. Because that's not enough to handle what else a deck is built with overall. Still. It does really depend on the circumstance of the duel. If you know the kinda match you wanna have and can establish that from the jump such as saying, "Hey. I wanna have a duel with our fun decks", or "Hey. I wanna test this deck" and perhaps "I'm lookin for a serious match" or whatever ya wanna say to make it clear what you're lookin for. Obviously there may be more to it but perhaps ya get the gist. Although as far as fun decks go, I've actually had a ton of fun with Super Quantum. Despite it only getting one new monster and one new extra deck card along with maybe a spell and trap or so as of recent, I still love the mechanic behind the deck!
Here's an idea possibly (not sure if someone has gave this one). In Pokemon, you have OU and UU as kind of the top tiers, with Ubers being where legendaries roam for the most part. But they also have smaller tiers to give weaker Pokemon a chance. Maybe isntead of Tier 1, 2 and Rouge, maybe Yu-Gi-Oh could use a tiering system similar to Pokemon, where weaker decks can try in the top tiers but are better in lower tiers where similar powered decks are, however top tier decks cannot go into the lower tiers as that's completely unfair. So at tournaments, you could have one where top tier decks can play, but also one where it's designed for the lower tier decks, and top tier decks can't enter because it would offset the balance.
Krawlers and Ghostricks are my jam, but there's a limited niche for high tier flip mechanics (cough cough Guru). Face down cards are one of the mechanics Yugioh still has that I can't find in other CCGs like KeyForge.
In Magic The Gathering, there is an unofficial format called "Pauper" that only has one rule: Every card in the deck is less than a dollar. I think a format like that for YuGiOh would make for a good facilitation of fun decks.
That may be what your local group calls Pauper, but that definitely is Not what the Pauper format is in MTG. Pauper formats only rule is the card must be of common rarity. And commons can often be much more than a dollar.
@@MobyShtick Ooooh shoot you're right. You know what it is? I was thinking back to a Tolarian CC video where he introduced it (several.years ago) and I guess for some reason I conflated "all cards must be common" as "all cards must be less than a buck." Thanks for the correction, dude.
You can win with rogue decks. often those decks ar even in an advantage because they (build right) can be immune vs common cards like hhandtraps (belle, nibiru or droll) and sidedeck cards. Only because a deck is not played much doesnt mean its bad. So basically everyone needs to find the competetive Build for his Deck and the right time to play it. Also those decks often get support that would be BROKEN in already strong meta decks (traptrix sera, halqifibrax or schism)
For me it's MaidDragon, I was able to pick up the core for it very cheap and at first I wasn't impressed the more and more I played around with it, the more combos I learned. It's a pure variant so not the dragon link combo stuff, but it holds its own and I was very shocked. I went undefeated then lost in top 8 at locals with it and I was very happy with those results.
They could have sets for specific tiers of archetypes. Them they could turn the ban list into the tier list. Say a deck that was supposed to be bottom tier is dominating they "ban" it to a higher tier. Same for a deck that is underperforming downwards
We really need multiple new formats, the game is getting so stale. That way we would have many ways to play all our cards with half of them being usefull in one format and the other half being usefull in another, instead of half of them being semi-useless.
Different formats are called Rush Duel & Duel Links,Speed Duels and probably Master Duel when it comes out. There's always a lot of cards that are not useful, it'll be the same as now but with a different card pool. Plus you have Traditional format.
@@randomprofile5853 rush duel and speed duel have their own rules and cardpools, but theres some unexplored potential like using different cardpools for those. like playing rush duel using LOB cards only, or playing speed duels using dawn of majesty + 2 sidesets only as your card pool
@@helixier6629 Trying to do that casually with friends sure, although officially it would be a nightmare plus it's not made for that. Konami themselves said some alternative formats had some hype but very low attendance, plus they said fanmade format's should be maintained by fans not them(even if they would be by Konami someone will still be complaining), I personally never really cared for other formats except Duel Links & Rush Duel but that's just me.
The main problem i've been having lately is that all the archetypes nowadays come out with 1 or 2 expensive cards, as a very budget limited player, even the kinda okayish archetypes will have fairly expensive cards. ie Arlekino started off as a 30 euro card, right now it went down to about half but that still means you'll have to pay about 90 euros just for the 2 main cards of the deck. There have been so many cool archetypes that just go out of reach because of the price, I'd be okay with it if the decks are actually competitive but for a lot of them you'll be throwing down well over 100 bucks just to make a "fun" deck.
I think you were right with the idea that Konami should try to make an alternative format and call it the "Casual Play Banlist" or something. Basically ban really broken staples and cards in archetypes that take a deck to the top tier. For example, possibly ban Nibiru and Nadir Servant...cards like that. And even if Konami wouldn't enforce this list, it would be cool if someone with enough knowledge of the game and internet clout would create and upload this casual banlist. The biggest problem would be that you'd be talking about banning or limiting hundreds of cards on top of the current list. I gave a FB group where we do tournaments and we tried to do a fun tournament and it was a bit of a nightmare. But a big thing that helped was that we put a limit on all floodgates and hand traps. So it was almost similar to Highlander Format. Just a few thoughts!
The main issue with most if not all the low tier archetypes getting shunted aside is simple: they are incapable of making use of enough of the omni negates that high tier decks pump out each turn. To put it simply, it doesn't matter how original your deck is if it can't play through 6 negates. To start with, I think konami needs to ban most of the generic extra deck omni negates, that alone would force people to diversify and play different decks to get different payoffs for that decks niche.
In Pokemon there's a community called Smogon which ranks each Pokemon in a tier list so that they all have a use/get some play. It'd be cool there was something similar in Yugioh too.
@Team APS Plus ok, so, what Konami/Yugioh need to do is adopt the cardfight vanguard clan mechanic and enforce pure archetype rules where you can only play that archetypes cards (and yes before you say some don't have a lot ) it would give Konami/Yugioh a means to create cards and get to to see just how much support other archetypes needs and must-have cards In order to function non its own to be even called an archetype. for me, my biggest question is. WHY HAVE IT if it isn't going to be a major or enforced mechanic in your game function?
they enforced the different summoning mechanic and look how exploitable that is in hte game and its a basic function , why not enforce some better structure in tot he game first
Yu-Gi-Oh needs a tiering system in the same sense that Pokemon has Smogon's tiering system. And usage might be a good metric for determining tiering, just like in Pokemon. If we can get analytics from Master Duel
I definitely do not agree with the Rarity tier printing idea but that being said I do think an alternate format system does need to be implemented and I like the idea of making it teir oriented
Start with putting the master rules into a set rulebook and keep them that way. Next, have one single master rule that changes every three months, with the next one being announced the month before its released. The master rule can be anything, for example; no draw power, no hand traps, no monsters of one particular summoning mechanic, pure archetype decks only, no banlist, etc. I feel like this would change up the game completely, in a good way.
I still say duel against friends or play a yugioh videogame and fight the AI The AI is very capable but doesnt tend to overwhelm you as much. You can choose which era type decks to face. And you can use any combination of old and new cards. Back on the friend option, if you take a returning player and pair them up with a returning player it sorta emulates the skill and power level balance
I like making decks for cards that have multiple effects but only get used for one. Like "Can I use Stardust Charge Warrior's attacking effect in a duel?"
Honestly a big issue to me is that the leftover archetypes from Arc V and Vrains were just so good that the only feasible way to get past them is to power creep them. Konami has handled power creep a lot better since 7s started so we ended up in this weird limbo of new archetypes being a little too fair and old archetypes overstaying their welcome.
I'm not sure about the solution but I do think Konami is headed in the right direction.
So we are basically back in the GX era where everyone just keeps playing DM stuff ? xD
@@Trashloot yeah, let's not have that era again.
The banlist. Or some generic cards that have some more narrow or specific applications so that things that are already powerful don't really benefit from them (a good example is that one spell in DAMA that restricts you to synchro summoning only.
I have a similar issue that you just said but I do have a different perspective. I believe that if they want to push an archetype to the competitive scene, they should release 1 or 2 cards that could push those archetypes to compete the meta just like SPYRAL Master Plan and Volcanic Blaze Accelerator Cannon. I don't mind if the pushed archetype become tier 0 or one of the most powerful deck since we do have the banlist. It's unfortunate alot of the recent archetypes are really cool but they need more if they want to be a meta contender.
they will do a "reset" banlist when the world comes back to normal. They always do every 3/4 years
I'm in love with Starry Knights. Bouncing the dragon back and forth and popping everything your opponent controls is so fun. It's definitely not a meta-tier deck but I love the concept and the art is gorgeous. It's not terrible either, the protection from dark boss monsters is pretty good, and the dragon walks all over Mystic Mine by bouncing back to the hand
Yeah I really liked playing it as well. I also enjoy my Ojama/Armed dragon/VWXYZ deck
Came to the comments to say the exact same thing!
I haven't played the archetype myself, but if it bounces, tributes, and gets benefits against dark monsters, would Lair of Darkness be a good tech for it?
@@stephen4006 Maybe late game when you have multiple dragons. Only the dragon is immune to dark monsters so I could see some cool plays with that
@@stephen4006 I don't think so just because Lair would make your Starry Dragon a dark monster not letting some cards return it to hand.
The idea of printing "stronger" archetypes in higher rarity absolutely will not work. Look at one of the strongest decks of recent times in Virtual World. Every knew it was just VFD turbo, but seeing how inconsistent the deck was, no one thought it would be that good. Hell, even look at OCG, they wrote the deck off. It was until people figured it out that they realized just how stupid VW was.
Next, there's Adamancipator. People thought it was an interesting deck, but no one knew how absurdly busted the deck could be until they refined it with block dragon turbo. Compare early Adamancipator lists with the ones close to the banlist and you see a vast difference.
Even Thunder Dragon back in 2019 evolved from a pure TD deck into the combo behemoth that was Danger Thunderdragon Crusadia. Even on release, people didn't really give Collosus much respect, but once testing happened, they realize what a stupid card it was.
There are also just as many decks that Konami and people have high hopes for that just don't do well on release. Magical Musket is one that comes to mind.
It's hard to know what a good archetype is until it is actually in the hands of the players.
Your comment doesn't really help to back your opinion but I kind of understand what you mean.
If Konami did take this route (asigning rarities to archetypes) it "could"work from a business perspective.
If players want to build a certain deck, they have to sink more money into the product until the acquire every card they need for an archetype.
So theoretically speaking, it may work. But in terms of realism, its a flawed concept.
There's also some archetypes which are mostly common and cheap that are just one or two cards away from being meta in their own right like Impcantation - all they need is a little bit more protection and ways to circumvent the limit on using the extra deck - they're already powerful enough and consistent enough and they are the only ritual engine which rarely bricks
Suship after its second wave could be meta; it's crazy consistent
making top archetypes more expensive is just going to lead to people being more creative with common cards
Some things can be seen as having reasonable potential.
For example a warrior deck that's still capable of taking advantage of the historical warrior support will be able to do something.
A dragon deck that can use the dragon support. They've had to restrict dragon support because of dragon link.
A spellcaster deck that can use spellcaster support.
The newer archetypes have less historical support (like Cyberse) but they do get some good stuff, like Cynet Mining.
@@freman007 yeah I agree, cards like Isolde and RotA can make it harder to balance warrior archetypes since the archetype will access to those on top of whatever consistency stuff it has in archetype
I don't mind having weaker archetypes come out tbh. There's a certain fun in building a deck not because it's decent but rather because you genuinely like its themes and trying to push them to the limit.
My problem with YGO archetypes is that we've reached a point where I feel we should start slowing down the release of new decks. Instead, we should dedicate about half of that R&D space to fill out older decks for a while. There's certain archetypes with less than 8 unique cards. Why not use the 6 or so slots a new deck would have used to support those instead and just push the new deck back a little bit? I feel that right now we have so many incomplete or disfunctional archetypes that I'd be fine slowing down new releases to give those a new wave.
I wholeheartedly agree. People are BEGGING for support for their favorite type/archetype etc and what does Konami do? Print Starry Night and Duel Avatar. Older decks could use starters, recovery cards, etc., lets get them those
So much this. Imagine how much impact decks like malicevorous and venom could have if they actually got some respectable support. If heroes and the like can have 80+ cards in the archetype, things like solfachord and nepthys could damn sure get some powerup cards to play with.
@@vla1ne HERO and Dark Magician getting new cards damn near every year while most archetypes starve infuriates me to no end
@@antonbrown17 Give hero a pass. Hero is only the biggest because it has the most trash cards. It has 5 archetypes in it, and 3 of them (Evil Hero, Masked, and Vision) are still either half-baked, or missing cards, when they're supposed to be separate decks.
@@Root4BeerFloats idk if them getting all this support and STILL being trash makes me feel better 😂
We ran some tournaments at locals a few times where the theme was that you could only play decks that have never topped a major event before, or another where you had to play "Table 500" decks. It was really fun cause it allowed the decks that never really get to see the light of day to top.
Once master duels is implemented, we should get objective data on frequency of cards used. Maybe an alt format could ban the top 100~200 cards used in a competitive match.
mtg arena accelerated a lot the "solving of the meta" on mtg and highlighting problem cards since it was released. though about their frequent bans it was probably also the fault of poorly balanced card design
The problem with that is you're basically just going back in time then. Can't play the top 200 cards? Just play the next best cards.
You're going to still be facing stupid decks. Just look at Farfa's tournament where he banned almost every key card in every archetype and every handtraps. Power creep is dumb.
@@ShiaSpirit Altergeist, Cyber Dragon, Dogmatika, Drytron, Shaddoll, Invoked, PK, VW, Zoodiac etc. would have more than 5 in-archetype cards banned. Meanwhile, Inzektors, Evil Twins, Witchcrafter, Nekroz, Madolche etc. would be untouched.
I don't think we would just go back in time. Older cards like HFD, one for one, book of moon, twin twister, allure, knightmares etc. would be banned as well. It would force using in-archetype or subpar replacements for such cards.
Regardless, it would create an alt format for people not fond of current format.
Madolche, Marincess, there are SO MANY strong decks that aren't strong enough. It will just create other degenerate format
@@Kaos9696 That's what I mean by going back in time. You can ban top 200 cards now, we basically go back to 2018 and we're back to playing ABC and Pendulum Magicians and Paleo Frogs.
You also make really powerful solitaire decks that much stronger because handtraps no longer exist.
And as you mentioned, Nekroz.... Look at how absurd and stupid playing against Unicore would be. That deck is so consistent, but if you lower the power ceiling of every deck and get rid of options, Unicore because an almost impossible to beat monster.
YuGiOh is just this type of game.
My problem is the way that they "support" archtypes.
You come out with TCG exclusives like the mutants and then just disregard supporting them.
But then you take something out of a side set like live twins and then you give them support for the next four or five sets after their pack already came out.
And then you make a deck like salad which is a starter deck but it plays so repetitive that it could be better because of how it is supported in itself.
The problem with a lot of Archetypes is that there's too many of them that gets little to no support to the point were "What's the point?" in making them in the first place.
Plus, there's other Archetypes that get too much support which should have put that energy to Archetypes that seriously needs it instead.
*Cough* dark magicians/ blue eyes *cough*
@@epicdude9229 fucking facts hella frustrating
Genex
Difference is blue eyes is terrible. Basically red eyes in actual competitive capabilities
In the Yugioh OCG structures manga, you get to see the characters playing different archetypes, like Tenyi, Virtual World, and Ursartic. I like that and I love reading the strategies afterwards.
It would be nice it we had something like pokemon showdown where either the cards individually or the archetypes are sorted into tiers. And when you play in a lower tier, cards from higher tiers simply can't participate. The problem is that this requires a lot of research and sorting, but if it works, you will have a tier based system. It's just a ton of work.
I have heard this idea as I like the idea, but I sadly don't think it is viable. Remember in 2016 me and my brothers made a list that had 150+ deck/archetypes and it even with us mot aruging on mostly anything, there was over 100 archetype in the lowest tier because tier 4 was that much of a gap despite being stuff that might not even be considered rouge in a 2016 format. But I think staples also massively can effect a decks viably because a noticable trait among our list was almost anything in t4 and lower lose thier turn to a strike or lose to anything higher because of strike when otherwise it was doable. I think it would need a borderline for cards and decks and there would need to be a lot of tiers because there was like 2 massive gaps in our tier 5. And this was just in 2016. I think past formats are usually the best way to play older stuff, but showdown type list could have potential of sorts. Lower tier banlist might be insane though. To elaborate more on some of the gap I mentioned in what me and my brothers did to kinda show it needs a ton of tiers. Battle boxers was in t5. With arcana force. Now on surfaves someone might say make sense but then think about how boxers probably always win even if arcana are on auto head as an 8-2 match up. Now think how mist things usable have a 6-4 match up but probably have a sub 5 match vs boxers. Then one would ask why not ban boxers to horderline. The problem was in the context of our list, boxers might not be a top 10 t5 deck(keep in mind theres a gap between top of t5 and bottom of t4). That's the power level some tiers will have to deal with unless there is at least 10 tiers. Possibly more.
The main issue with that is that besides archetypes being strong you have to now determine which specific cards cant be used. But then some decks that are "shit" are still better than other decks that are "shit" then you can take that deck and add high tier staples and it would be better
@@TraaaaaasshBooooaaaatttt Exactly. When I mentioned 2016 in my rant of making massive tiers, strike was this card. Bad decks in the bottom tier could beat better decks in it purely because almost nothing at all in the tier could recover froma strike that turn and it is at 3. So it was possible to lose just because they drew more strikes.
This could actually be a reality with master duels coming out. we will have hard data on every card played and they could sort it out somehow with that info
I've seen this idea get tossed around a bit, but I think it runs into a problem that's a little awkward to explain. Basically, I'll use the Pokemon tiers as an example just to make things simple (granted, I don't know a vast amount about the Pokemon tiers, so I may get some things wrong.) So let's say that at the top we have something like AG in Pokemon. Use whatever cards you want, it doesn't matter. Anything goes. Sorta like Yu-Gi-Oh with no ban list I suppose. Easy enough. Underneath that we have Ubers, so I suppose this would just be the TCG as it stands with the banlist. Next we have OU, so the same thing but with the extremely strong cards banned. Then UU, same thing, the list goes on. The problem is that, inside of those different tiers, there will always be a couple of strategies that stand above the rest and become the meta. They're not strong enough to compete with Ubers decks, but they're dominating OU. Let's just say, for now, that we move them to Ubers just to get rid of the problem. Then OU gets taken over by the next best strategies. Rinse and repeat. No matter what format you're playing in or what rules you're using, there will always be that one strategy that stands out above the others that sucks to play against. That's just the way it works. For Pokemon, in AG you have things like Mega Rayquaza. In Ubers, you've got things like Xerneas, in OU maybe there's Mega Gengar or something. I don't know if those are actually correct at all, but hopefully it gets the point across.
The thing is, players who go to locals or play competitively are vastly outnumbered by people who play tabletop ygo- people who buy packs and build decks from those, adding Free Agent cards from those packs to bolster up their current "pile" deck.
The most people who play YGO LOVE what we consider "filler" cards/deck themes because they can build a whole deck after opening a bunch of product.
More recently I've learned these low tier decks work weirdly well together especially when they fill the gap for each other.
Examples, Mekk-Knight Altergeist and Crusadia Nephthys
And the plays are always varied. Personally I think the issue is how we deck build. Its almost mathematic and that's boring.
It's either a field of negates, board wipes, OTKs, or Mystic Mine all of which are fine but theirs little interaction between players
And I think it's on the players to change that, not Konami.
In fact I think Konami's focus on Normal/Non-effect Monsters is meant to spur new ways of thinking about decks. I don't think it's working super well tho
I think the big issue with it being up to the players is everyone wants to win (let’s be honest) and playing decks that have the most negates, an otk, or stall have better chances of winning. Why play a deck like Deskbots when it has no chance of going against something like Tribrigade?
@@jeffjagoda1614 don't clown on Deskbots bro. Shit's OP.
@@jeffjagoda1614 you want to go X-8 in a regionals or even locals? Go ahead.
@@putrableeker151 Not according to certain RUclipsrs *cough* Farfa *cough* 😂😂
@@ziadnabil403 Yeah that’s the issue. People complain about wanting to play fun decks but they want to win too. I wish they both went hand in hand.
When i first got into Yugioh, i was kind of suprised how....strict most cards are. Before yugioh, i played many other TCG's so it was strange for me that soooo many cards only work with specific cards in their own archetype. Wish there would be a bit more freedom. Maybe some weaker archetypes would be stronger too if they could branch out a bit more~
The strictness comes from the fact that in the early days of yugioh there was very little deck variety, "good stuff" decks, as they were called, dominated the meta, there wasn't any kind of color system like in other card games to restrict deck building so you just crammed all the good stuff into one deck, In hindsight Konami could've focused harder on types and attributes, which already existed, to give decks more variety, but instead they doubled down on the idea of archetypes, so now there's definitely variety, but it's also much much stricter than the freedom offered in other card games, it basically went from one extreme to the other.
In YGO we dont have a resource system. Like mana in HS and MTG. So, archetypes are a way to balance the lack of resource management
Except the Deck building you're mentioning did exist
And every one got fucked up by QuickDraw Synchron
Literally all random, Singleton, lol
SUS ship is the only archetype you will ever need.
yes let's duel
Facts. Can't wait for the next set for the urchin and the others.
Sunship is in my top ten list, for archetypes with meta potential. Maybe not now, but in da future, or near future.
Not for me
true
The ice barrier starter deck; i bought 3 and added my own extra deck cards and it shocks me how flexible the cards they gave were. I last played around 2012 before returning this month.
Should've stayed out lol
So here is the best way I can put it:
Older archetypes need support more than we need new archetypes.
We have so many good and powerful archetypes that anything not given that extra wave or two of support, is near guaranteed to see no play.
Thunder dragons used to be 2 cards, and they created an entire, competitive archetype around it.
I'm not saying everything should be able to compete with the meta. That takes some of the fun out of playing the stronger decks, or pulling rare/competitive cards from packs.
The support some decks receive is also too weak to increase the playability of the deck they support. Placing "hard once per turn" and "only one effect per turn" on cards that could be either soft once per turns, or just a "once per turn" instead of "one effect per turn".
That's my thoughts, y'all have a good one.
(Sorry if this is without message or clear direction, I struggle trying to do this kind of thing)
I fully agree with this, but I wouldn't really know how to fix it
The Pokemon community did it pretty well I think; they have tiers and the Pokemon allowed are there by usage. If Pokemon get too dominant they get banned to a higher tier, and there is a 'council' that alongside statistics motivate why certain pokemon are banned or not. Of course it takes forever to set that up, but I think something like that can work in Yugioh!
Tiers work pretty easily in the Pokémon video games because there's a limit to how many moves, abilities, stats, and items each individual mon can get as well as basically every team ever having exactly 6 members. A tier list in Yugioh (especially paper Yugioh) would be a bit harder because of the number of different variables to account for is staggering in comparison. If Yugioh was like one of those card games with factions that cannot mix as per the rules of the game (Summoner Wars comes to mind) then it'd be easier to rank but I feel like there's too many variables to make such a clear cut ranking system.
That said, I would still LIKE for such a system to exist. I just don't know how viable it would be.
That's a good idea.
I don't think they would spend the money to create the resources for that when the way they handle it currently still generates money.
Until they start really hemorrhaging their player base, they won't change much of how they operate
@@otakufreak40 I agree it would be very difficult, probably why no fans have tried this. In my head the tiers would mostly be reserved for bosses, starters, and staples; Maybe El Shaddoll Construct and Winda are OU, but the Shaddoll Engine itself might still see play in lower tiers, using the Fire Shaddoll fusion to send Volcanic Shell to the Graveyard, or something like that. Maybe Thunder Dragon becomes a low-tier synchro deck (like they were in Duel Links for a bit, iirc) if Titan is made UU - but are still playable as Titan Control in that tier.
Can't imagine going through all 10k+ cards for that though, and how many tiers there would even be...
it's a good idea. The one thing is that it's a lot of work. Every card that get's released needs to end up somewhere on the list. Even stuff like flame manipulator.(S tier card btw). A way to start would be to release the tiers 1 by 1. Start with the highest tier and once that one is established introduce the one below it. Place everything that isn't used or good enough in untiered. The meta shift once new cards will be released is the biggest problem. Any card can go from low tier to high tier. Another issue is that, by taking away 1 or 2 cards from a deck will lower that deck's power level considerably. So with every card removed, a deck's power level needs to be reevaluated. Even drytron is garbage with only 1 card in it's archetype.
Konami just needs to try to support all archetypes. There's so many archetypes in Yugioh, instead of spending the time and money creating a dozen new archetypes each year, release support for older archetypes and maybe only release 6 new ones a year, or heck, 1 new archetype every 3-4 months.
It's a shame that some archetypes might not get a new card for YEARS. For most archetypes, you're lucky to get one new in-archetype card a year, and most of the time, it's not very good, definitely not close to OP, which alot of archetypes need: very good or OP cards every couple of years to keep them playable.
Even with archetypes that dominated the meta 2-3 years ago, they've gotten power crept to the point of barely being rouge (Salamangreat, Sky Striker), and then you got archetypes that receive a bunch of support almost every year like Dark Magician (which is understandable to a certain point, goes without saying it's a fan favorite).
Konami really needs to make it a part of their mission to support all archetypes to make sure they aren't neglected and basically unplayable in a few years time, if they ever even were playable in the first place. And it wouldn't be too hard. 2-3 GOOD in-archetype cards is enough to make an archetype just better enough to be played without insta-losing.
New archetypes that come out are either top tier meta material or casual deck material and not even capable of beating current rogue decks and no way in hell to compete with current meta decks and strats...Nothing in between
PAUUUUUL!!! I GOT IT ... MAYBE, Konami should have a creative tournament, along side the regular format... where the creative format would be point system.... and implemented to it a creativity marker, the more an archetype and even a particular card will lose you points,,, winning will get you points, and maybe even being respectful to your opponent, or getting Into character, or passion will get you points as well ... judges could be random volunteers. That way we can go all out with dragoon, droplets, ash blossom and then turn around and play berry magicians mixed with lair of darkness 🤣
When the new token archetype is worse than mecha phantom beasts. Aka they only have one card that can generate tokens.
Brave token is actualy good play it in prank kids its broken
really love the mathmech archetype and I am trying to build a most optimized competitive version and a more casual version. I feel like it is slightly worse than phantom knights but more powerful than a deck like tenyi or dual avatar. any advice on mathmechs is appreciated!!
I feel you bro. When Chaos impact dropped in 2019 I was scrolling through the card list and comparing dragonmaid to mathmech I knew I wanted mathmech to the deck I wanted to bring to a local. Unfortunately, I've gotten stomped at my locals because the deck has no recursion power, handtraps kill the extra deck monsters when they try to use their effects and worst of all it locks into cyberse monsters. My best advice is to use other generic cyberse monsters like parallel exceed and linkslayer to set up small boards and support it with trap cards cuz this deck is a glass cannon for sure.
I personally have gravitated to Code talkers. Being able to search Spells and traps and keep my link summoning under 5 summons is perfect for lower tier competitive decks
If you need help with optimizing mathmech, you should join the mathmech discord, this also applies to other decks you want to build in the future, join there respective discord. Players on the Discord and I could help.
@@Pydtosofz im trying to find one on discord but just find the general ygo discord
I haven't done a lot of deckbuilding over the past few years; but, I have absolutely fallen in love with Ogodiac. It brings reptiles to a new level, the art is absolutely gorgeous and actually makes the venom boss monsters semi-playable. However, its super easy to negate making it not too great to use in a tournament setting. But I find it neat and that's all that matters to me.
Springans time thief is so cool, I wish it was a bit more playable...
I play a predominantly Lunalight deck based off of duel links, I know duel links doesn’t necessarily translate to irl decks but I’d love to hear your opinion on it, I find it extremely fun to play and honestly I feel it would do well in certain circumstances when played right. Just curious what you think of them and where they fall in terms of how good they are competitively
I'm new to the game so tell me if this is stupid but a "weight class" system that I thought of would simply be time frame. Whenever the cards were released. Playing from 03-07 only would be fun, 08-12, 13-17 etc
That sounds past format with catches but could be interesting for some time periods. The main issure I see is there's a lot of potential to make some of the strong decks better because less of their outs are in that time period. Overall probably not the best idea.
What's the Differences between the Obelisk The Tormentor and also Slifer The Sky Dragon from the Newest Yugioh Structure Decks and the One's from the new Yugioh Set Kings Court Team APS?
Myutant is surprisingly good, I enjoy it very much and combined with Invoked it’s more elevated
Bought 2 Ancient Guardian boxes earlier this year. Been trying to build Ogdoadic deck and Ursarctic deck strictly from the cards in the packs, but having trouble. I think they're both an interesting archetype for deck foundation for sure, but need a lot of outside support (or maybe I'm just a bad deck builder.) That being said, I'm returning to YGO this year from playing at the beginning at the game and it is crazy how even these archetypes feel kind of underpowered compared to meta-decks, they'd blow any deck from the pre-gx days out of the water. Hoping to go to my first locals sometime soon as an old ass man with one of these decks.
With what I've played and been up against in the Casual scene, some of the hands that come out are obscene, a lot of my decks were forced to adapt to such a situation but if I could pick a archetype that I could quite happily keep playing with adjustments it would be Geargia, adding in things like Cyber Dragon and Trains really does enhance it.
I been playing Speedriods, Predaplants, Phantom Knights, Lunalights, and Also Performer Pals with a little bit of the Odd Eyes Dragons and Odd Eyes Magician's in it too also as well too!
I tried a challenge where me and my friend made decks that only had 1 monster type (fish, zombie, wyrm etc) even in extra and excluding handtraps, unless they match the type too. We did it to kinda see which monster type is strongest on its own. It was lots of fun (and spoiler: it was warriors and dinos). When we tried to do something similar with online strangers, it was met with negativity and messages like "what is the purpose?".
Hey Paul, you make a great point but I think you may be forgetting Yu-Gi-Oh Duelists of the Roses. They matched you up based on deck cost. Each card had a numerical value based on it's level of playable intensity. Though Duelists of the Roses isn't a cannon format in the Yu-Gi-Oh TCG, the idea of matching deck costs was a great way of getting a fair game and a rather fun one. I play the TCG like that with my friends. Each card has a number called it's card cost, totaling out a deck cost. The Marincess deck cost for example, would be in the 70s, where Drytron would be in the hundreds. It would make for more fair & fun gameplay in my experience & opinion.
Could work... 🤔
So I got back into the game a few months before MR5 was revealed (Long story but MR4 killed the decks I played so I just left and said "I'll be back when my decks have good links"). I was pointed towards tenyi and up to this day it is my favourite deck to play. The art (imo) is so nice and the deck itself actually surprised me at how consistent it is and what you can do with it. It also grew with my skill and I can build it multiple ways... man I love that deck
The new xiang archetype is gonna make tenyi into an even more powerful deck.
Honestly MR4 straight up murdered my decks (Tzolkin Metalfoes for one), not only by the banlist, but also the MR4 mechanic. Then add into the fact that FTKs were rampant in MR4. I just said hell no
I love my Rikkas, and they can handle against some meta decks (Drytron, and Shaddoll), but there is definitely a disparity between them and several of the common meta staples (like Dragoon, and Avramax), leading many to not give them a chance. But they have good strategies and cards, like Rikka Flurries which can actually get around monster immunity effects.
Different formats would definitely help the game. Look at Mtg and Poke'mon. They have multiple formats and offer SO many ways to play and allows the usage of "weaker" cards. I love ygo (mostly cause of nostalgia) but damn the lack of formats and creativity is so unfortunate. I STILL want a "Deck Masters" format like EDH/Commander from Mtg but for YGO. The ways cards are designed kinda limit the creativity though which sucks.
And it would allow Komoney to sell new cards without resorting to powercreep.
There is creativity in yugioh iv been topping a competetive locals with spellbook playing agaisnt pk, tri brigate, shaddoll invoked and prank kids by looking at the deck finding out what the issues are and adding in suporting engines and powerful staples so it can keep up dont play a poorly built deck thats really old without good staples and good theory
I believe it's a little too vague but a FIRE Burn deck using Flamvells as an engine was one I built. Haven't gotten to test it yet but seems really fun
Some archetypes are never finished, or their core weakness is never circumvented with any kind of support. Meanwhile there are archetypes that ARE supported and thus, get tournament play. Shaddolls, Tri-Brigade, Drytron, the list goes on. I’d love to play some older archetypes if they ever got any kind of legacy support that helps them. With Link VRAINS packs I was so excited thinking Tellarknights would get a link or some kinda support to help them. I’m STILL waiting. Meanwhile Shaddolls get a link, and a a ton of support cards and they’re insane.
The problem with this is how Konami monetizes 'Yu-Gi-Oh!'
When they release archetypes, they will purposely not release all the cards to support it. So, they can keep whatever for the next set or two.
If I were to compare it to Magic the Gathering, at least up until the more recent years. MtG had it where when a new set comes out, it fully commits to it. Cards come out that fully support it. And if there are individual cards that also work with other themes or decks, then it is coincidental.
But Yu-Gi-Oh! have to constantly purposefully release one or two cards for popular archetypes in a whole set. As such the set isn't committed to an archetype, and not enough support cards for new archetypes to bring them to the same power as older archetypes who have like one or two cards every set. Konami just needs to slow down with support for older archetypes and focus.
Ur missing the point man. Even if support is held back for other sets. Almost all of the time, It's what the archetype is introduced with that determines whether its top tier or not. The support is nice, but isn't a big game changer when the archetype is already really strong upon release. A couple of support cards in later sets almost never makes a deck good enough to compete with the meta
@@astrograph7875 I made that point. Because of how Konami monetizes Yu-Gi-Oh!, if something already starts strong, and continues to have support it remains strong. As such, newer sets, because they have to share space in the new sets with old archetypes too, there is no longer enough room to make new archetypes actually strong. If they're not strong, then they're not popular. If they're not popular, then Konami doesn't print more support for them. As such, Konami needs to stop with support on the older stuff and fully commit to a new archetype first. If there is no focus, then there will never be a change.
@@ArcDragoon I think a good solution would be mini sets to support old arctyoes with suitable reprints. Main sets have new archtypes with few older archtype support cards support + plua generic strong one
The thing is that the magic comparison isn't all that fair at this point, Yugioh doesn't have set rotation, which is why their deck ideas can stay as long as they wish for, any archetype is eternal in the game, meanwhile, Magic rotates the usable pool of cards every certain time, which makes any series of cards needing to come out completely as an entire deck by itself, because if they wait, it would be pointless since it would mean the deck gets less of it's lifespan actually complete.
I think konami sometimes thinks that just a few cards are enough to build a deck on release and I don't really agree with it, but it's just something we gotta deal with thanks to how yugioh archetypes are eternal.
@@madamered1103
No the comparison to MtG is fully suitable because MtG also has an eternal format. The difference between Yu-Gi-Oh and MtG is the fact that Yu-Gi-Oh has an anime. And as such the true trapping is that Yu-Gi-Oh has to comply to the anime on some level. The game mechanics are bound to the show, the archetypes are bound to the show, the popularity is bound to the show, etc... As such, unlike MtG that is not bound to a show, it is actually limited in scope of the card pool. MtG doesn't care in that sense of "archetype", sure each card may belong to a color pool, but that's only for flavor. MtG sets are only bound by themes of the set. If the set is about werewolves and vampires, then that's what it'll only be about, it focuses on the theme. Yu-Gi-Oh sets try to sell a little bit at a time for each archetype because they're shown in the anime. Then it gets worse for archetypes that are either original from the anime or were so one time use in the anime that the card pool is like less than a dozen cards. Then old archetypes take up more slots because unfortunately they're popular due to nostalgia from the anime, example being Blue-Eyes or Dark Magician. The anime and limitations of Yu-Gi-Oh will always be this.
I’m loving using the poker / royal/ arcana knight stuff.
I'm rather new to yugioh but would an alternate game style of only commons work? MTG alternate game styles are often played by the players for years before seeing any kind of support or official sanction. That in mind maybe an unofficial common only style of game would be a fun boundary to try and play within?
Not sure if this counts but been messing with the Lyrilusc engine in Tri-Brigades as of late and I was actually surprised how diverse the lines of play get compared to more popular options like the Zoodiac variant or the pure one with Rescue Cat. Easily the most fun I've had with Tri-Brigade so far and I cannot wait for Synchro Storm to release so this build gets its power buff.
They just need to create cards that like discard one card of an archetype and draw 2 or 3 cards or more cards like charge of the light brigade to setup the graveyard and search. However with those new cards have a restriction that says for the rest of this turn you can only activate cards with that archetype in its card text.
Or create a painful choice/snake rain specific to an archetype and lock you into the archetype for the turn.
The only issue with this is that it becomes a plus and minus issue that's dictated by konami. It comes down to which archetypes receive the best or most support. And in the end everyone will just play that archetype in the metagame. But in general you're right they need to support dead archetypes that have potential rather than create new ones. It's funny konami sells everyone the DM blue eyes nostalgia but refuses to tap into older archetypes as frequently as they should.
@@Creative.Pursuit That’s why I added a restriction to only play a specific archetype for the rest of the turn. Kind of balances it out. I get what you are saying though. Older archetypes do need more support. It’d be cool to see more lightsworn, sylvan, or naturia support.
Crazy old man screaming at the sun
Also maybe there could be two world wide tournaments. 1 of them is the regualr one we already have and the other one is for rouge decks. It has a different banlist and certain high teir decks are not allowed. This allows for meta to continue while rouge players can have thier own fun. Kind of like how the tcg and ocg are split
Recent archetypes that I played: Drytron (On a budget).
There are not a whole lot of new archetypes that catch my fancy at the moment.
I do like how Kobami has been printing support for older archetypes. I will be trying to make a Junk Speeder Stardust type deck in the near future. I also would like a Black Rose Dragon deck but I cannot seem to figure out a good enough build to play vs my friends. They all tend to play rogue and meta decks.
Before Linkross got banned I played Drytron and used The World to skip the opponent's turn. It was really funny to see when I could OTK them the next turn.
This system is called locals, but casual Yu-Gi-Oh is dead. Locals are just small regionals now.
I personally play Harpies and Plunder Patroll, I know they aren’t top tier decks or anything but by building these decks several different ways I’ve found ways around some of the meta. With harpies I can beat drytron but it could take awhile to get going. Other meta decks I’ve been able to get around was prank kids and the non pure tribrigade decks. Having access to cards like apollosa, dragoon and simorgh makes the meta a little less annoying as a Harpie player. With plunder patroll I haven’t really played them competitively yet because I couldn’t find a white aura whale to save my life lol finally got one and gonna run them this weekend at locals. I did play test plunder last night at our local shop and was able to beat traptrix/dogmatika and did fairly well against dinos. The only bad thing about plunder is that we don’t have an earth element or a wind element ship, if we had those this archetype would vastly improve.
Are those Displates in the background? How do they hold up?
Red dragon archfiend; I recently built the deck for a "casual" or rogue night with friends & it was so much more fun than I ever expected... yugioh needs different formats going forward "low tier", "teams" , maybe a duel links "styled" banlist... it could be a pain to implement, but once the ball is rolling there's no limit to what Konami could do
I would like to play Abyss actor, but at my local all the people plays rogue+ decks with tons of handtraps so i cannot 😢
I’ve always wanted to use gem knights and because of master duel I’ve finally been able to. I love that deck so much it’s so much fun to play. Throwing fusions together left and right.
My two favorite decks are Shiranui and Mayakashi, leaning more towards Mayakashi. They are both really fun, with great lore and art, but get curbstomped by a lot of the other decks. I would love to be able to play one or both at tournaments, but would most likely get demolished.
I completely agree. I still have a Gravekeeper's deck that I build, back in 2014. But it's in NO way a meta deck that wouldn't survive. I did take it to a local's back in 2019 (when i came back to yugioh) and got smashed by so many different decks that I had never heard of. But still, it's my favorite deck and I love it!
Haven't played Yu gi oh in a while and just getting back into it. But something I was wondering about as a fix or a thought would be what pokemon smogen does with pokemon tier list like overused, underused etc tiers. And possibly apply this to archetypes. So you can then determine which tier type the duel will be based on.
That would be a good idea, but I'm not sure how effectively it is. For Pokemon, you limit certain types of Pokemon. For archetypes which are composed on certain decks, that would be a question what cards are consider that archetypes or how much cards would be consider that archetypes.
I agree, I recently build an Orcust-Appliancer deck and an Ammoephage-DracoSlayer one. Just for fun. Pretty cheap builds. Never gonna win anything competitive with that. But, what about Konami came up with a weighting system that gives value to each card (like, if its an extender X value, a searcyer Y value and so on) so your deck ends up with a total of points. Then, there would be tournaments with a max deck points restrictions. And the advanced or tier 1 tournament would be unrestricted just like it is right now. IDK, the you could compete with your fun deck against other fun decks.
What I think would work well would be something like Pokémon showdown for cards where each card would be ranked at a certain tier and you can compete in whatever tier your highest ranked card is in. That way staples can ruin fun deck matches
This comment is underrated. I agree that a showdown style tier list (although I admit it seems difficult to define (for me at least) where the tier divisions would be) is an excellent way to divide cards.
For those who may be unfamiliar, Pokémon Showdown is a browser based Pokémon Battle Simulator. The Pokémon are divided into different tiers and formats. This allows lesser used and less powerful Pokémon to not only stand out, but even become heavyweights or powerhouses in their own tiers.
An issue with tbis is that there have been many cases where an eh deck from the past becomes really good in the present or a eh card in the past becomes really good. So tiering cards and decks on an official level kind of caps their potential
Magic has a format called pauper, which only uses common cards. It'd be cool to try something similar with Yu-Gi-Oh. Maybe the archetypes could internal levels. Like their common and rare cards can do some things, and then they have secrets and ultras that take the same archetype to another level.
In my locals they hold a once a month event called no meta. They ban a bunch of cards used on meta decks that make them broken. So for example you still have access to tribeigade but without revolt.
Currently building Krawler and Tindangle decks to play a "Table 500" series with my friends with locals, and Vylons for my own "Let's Make This Competitive" series just because these 3 archetypes are so weird and funky
As a guy who fell out of following YGO but tries to loosely follow along I feel like they need to break some of their rules and establish some more rulesets in regards to establishing tier lists similar to Pokemon OR as a community thing to establish tiers (again Pokemon) like how there are whole sets of tiers as to what archetypes are considered stronger than others.
That way you allow lower tier decks to breathe and try out new things. Potentially having a lower tier deck "play up" with higher decks but not letting higher tier decks "play down".
If that makes any sense
Maybe you could hold a live-stream and duel with other Yugitubers and/or subscribers to demonstrate what your proposed format would look like. I know I would want to see it.
Discovering archetypes pretty much fully got me on board the yugioh train after only being mildly interest in it for my entire life! I discovered evil eye and witchcrafters from duel links and I've just been loving the game when I play against friends who also play archetype decks. Recently I've been interested in gimmick puppet too! I feel like it's not all that great especially when faced with effect negations but putting out a 3000 attack xyz in one turn just feels so fun to do.
I'd like to see some support for Gimmick Puppets maybe something like a retrained Leo XYZ monster that can possibly negate something.
@@randomprofile5853 Yeah as cool as the original leo is you're kind of giving up a lot for an instant win effect that could be really easily stopped lol
@@beepybop3187 Well, Chronomally got support in Dawn of Majesty so hopefully they make more support soon + Quinton's Dyson Sphere deck needs an upgrade. The deck is too fragile although it's funny OTK-ing with Giant Hunter & Grinder especially going 2nd against an XYZ deck xD
@@randomprofile5853 Yup playing gimmick puppet has wired my brain into always wanting to go second
Would be nice to have a format where you could only play in archetype cards and have access to a limited pool of non archetype staples to fill out the deck.
I love playing Witchcrafter because they have great synergy with their spells and graveyard effects but I’m sure I would get slapped up, down and sideways if I played against meta decks. It’s a shame cuz they’re really fun to play with and I love the art. Feel like you’re onto something with the weight classes but unfortunately I don’t think anything would ever happen :(
I think at best its good to bring multiple decks and just see what the opponents levels are
i wish they got more support like a field spell maybe
Amazoness and Burning Abyss are my two favorite archetypes. I like that the latter can still hold its own depending on the matchup
What if the person going first can not use handtraps on the second players turn, is just allowed to put up negates with monsters and traps ? I am a casual.
I managed to stall out a HERO (mostly Destiny) player with Dream Mirrors. Game 1 took like 30 minutes lol. We were down to about 15-18 cards each, though unfortunately I didn't draw into my Recap OR Pot of Avarices so I wasn't able to recur my losses...but it was fun, though. It's fun when I can play archetypes against certain Top Tier decks without much pimping (no excessive hand traps/staples) and have them actually do fairly well. Are these decks going to top events? Probably not, but as long as I can make the top tier players earn that win and not get FTK'd in the process? Then that's a victory on my part xD
The best part of Yugioh Archetypes for me is they almost always have some sort of lore to them, making it not only fun to play but also interesting to collect. A lot of my decks that I enjoy to play the most I don't play against people at locals but just with closer friends who play the same type of "fun decks" but I agree it would be cool if Konami could somehow (No idea how!) make different levels of tournament tiers. I think until that happens, it just comes down to your locals and/or friends to organise these lower-tier events.
I've been playing a battle royal format, like MTG's commander, with my friends. We all play different decks, non meta, meta, low tier, and we've gotten pretty fun duels regardless of the difference of power.
I feel like the idea of weight classes falls into the category of reasoning that you mentioned during the "casual vs competitive" video. I feel like if you want to play something that is not as powerful as the top tier decks, you just have to find people to play it with, and not expect the competitive side to follow this type of playing. Outside of tournaments, I totally agree that there should be some sort of official Konami list that you can play with friends or local card shops, where it's not about the year that cards came out in, it's about the strenght of the deck itself
Played a fair amount of a few non-meta decks that are fun to play. Time thief, Springans, S-Force, Sunavalon, Mechabots, Charmers/Magistus, With all of them, the issue is pretty simple: if you don't play 10 hand traps and a couple meta traps, you just have no negates. If your opponent doesn't have any either, that's fine, but if they do, they cancel your plays, and some of these decks have no way to play once they get negated once during their combo, and then your opponent just steamrolls you.
The way I see it is simple: archetype cards should have more negates or chain-link protection effects so you can play them without suffering for not playing a quarter of your deck as non-archetypal negates. That's the only way to make them viable without having to ban a couple dozen cards that were originally intended to compensate for archetype weaknesses and let them focus more on combos with the new archetypes than on negations. I get that these cards are supposed to even the playing field by saying "everyone can play these" but the game isn't fun when it's focused on preventing your opponent from playing and being prevented from playing yourself. This only gets worse when your hand is mainly these cards and your first turn is just set 2 face down and pass.
Another thing we need is archetypes with more ways to play past the first negate. Sunavalon does this great because you have many ways to keep going, and that's also why I expect it to be a good rogue deck once it gets burst of destiny support. However, on the other side of the table they're making Magistus a massive negation deck that can pretty much only be popped by generic negations. Twin twisters, dusters, Veiler, Ghost Ogre, inf imp, they can all take out that new Zoroa. Yet archetypes usually have their negation in the extradeck, which he counters on turn 1. (To be fair, that deck will still be bad going second, it will rarely be able to get that syncrho monster out if the opponent knows what it does).
On the no follow-up side of things, in what I played, Springans and S-Force really suffer from any form of negation. S-Force need to get out at least 3 bodies to get their link monster which has 1 negate, and then be lucky enough to not have needed to use their Gravatino search to get anything other than S-Froce Chase to get another negate, despite that search usually being used to get a Bridgehead which then can only search a monster, which you have no way of summoning until the next turn, so it doesn't really do much in terms of combo continuation. Springans can easily go into a F0 Utopic Future Draco, but that's by sacrificing everything they build during their turn, leaving them with 1 negate, and rendering the effect of their field spell useless during their opponent's turn. This also requires building towards, with cards such as Machine Duplication, Salamangreat Al'Miraj+Parallel Exceeds, King of feral imps, and others, which just flood the deck making it so you either don't play generic negates, or you do at the cost of reducing the odds of accessing your field spell, which the archetype heavily builds towards as it is in essence their starter.
These decks were both cool in concept, but those concepts ignored the overall state of the game, making them only useful in their own bubble. I guess that's why BLVO is considered to be so bad; only good things to come out of that set are the cards that aren't a part of the sets 4 main archetypes. Even the metalfoes and windwitch support it gave us will see more use in the long run than the armed dragons, springans, s-force, and war rocks.
First thing that comes to mind for me is Pokémon Showdown style tiers where they get separated by usage but that seems nearly impossible in this case.
In Showdown it's done by usage of a specific Pokémon but for archetypes, literally including one card from another could see the deck be massively different but neither are terribly strong pure. Not to mention many cards are generic, belonging in no specific archetype (or at least not yet). So I really can't see how that would work.
Best suggestion is maybe they could deem tiers based on specific card usages after considering deck usage stats but none of this sounds very doable by a person. Or even an algorithm since sure deck A and B might use some of the exact same cards, but deck A and B could very well be using them differently so how do you weight that correctly even as a human, let alone an algo?
Meanwhile they banned King's Rock cause a Council Member lost to King's Rock in a tournament.
This is why I can't stand Smogon
I’ve been playing with an aroma garden deck that I absolutely love but it would be slaughtered in a tournament setting. Getting past the first round or two is the only issue. I’m thankful for decks that I think are fun and powerful even if not “meta”. Earth machines is what I play the most and I’d say is also one of the best “rogue” decks. I’ve also been playing pendulum magicians simply because I love the things that the deck can do.
i usually take 10+ decks to locals with a range from prank kids to cloudians. that way if there is a newer player, or someone wants to mess around I can play sometime appropriate.
That _BRAVE TOKEN_ series are among of the coolest themes. I sadly think that BECAUSE of how distinct that theme has to be, you run into the issue of "style over substance".
I think the Gunkan Suship 🍣 🍛 Archetype borders on the style with its visuals and certain effects like the Field Spell making your opponent PAY for damages equal to the Xyz monster(s) Defense and how when you combine the proper topping, you get bonus effects and all that good stuff. It's not like unplayable because the cards while small in number work fairly well.
Brave Token series NEEDS the Brave Token generator every game and have the token protected at all times to do _anything_ and it's a shame because otherwise, it's a really cool theme.
Exorsisters was recently revealed and for personal reasons, I really appreciate the aesthetics and how their effects work with each other and how they go from normal hard working girls to battle ready demon exorcists (by "ranking up")
It borders on style and substance and it has potential but it's NOT quite there yet I think. So yeah... Cool themes and archetypes but most of them are style over substance and that's just how it is sometimes.
Yeah no. This is a great conversation to have. Perhaps in another world more if not all decks would see play given they received the proper support to combat differing decks. The only thing is each deck realistically should have a weakness. But that's where those few cards and staples that come out work to balance things somewhat. But then again.. They aren't always the end game as far as being solutions overall. Because that's not enough to handle what else a deck is built with overall. Still. It does really depend on the circumstance of the duel. If you know the kinda match you wanna have and can establish that from the jump such as saying, "Hey. I wanna have a duel with our fun decks", or "Hey. I wanna test this deck" and perhaps "I'm lookin for a serious match" or whatever ya wanna say to make it clear what you're lookin for. Obviously there may be more to it but perhaps ya get the gist. Although as far as fun decks go, I've actually had a ton of fun with Super Quantum. Despite it only getting one new monster and one new extra deck card along with maybe a spell and trap or so as of recent, I still love the mechanic behind the deck!
Here's an idea possibly (not sure if someone has gave this one). In Pokemon, you have OU and UU as kind of the top tiers, with Ubers being where legendaries roam for the most part. But they also have smaller tiers to give weaker Pokemon a chance. Maybe isntead of Tier 1, 2 and Rouge, maybe Yu-Gi-Oh could use a tiering system similar to Pokemon, where weaker decks can try in the top tiers but are better in lower tiers where similar powered decks are, however top tier decks cannot go into the lower tiers as that's completely unfair. So at tournaments, you could have one where top tier decks can play, but also one where it's designed for the lower tier decks, and top tier decks can't enter because it would offset the balance.
Krawlers and Ghostricks are my jam, but there's a limited niche for high tier flip mechanics (cough cough Guru). Face down cards are one of the mechanics Yugioh still has that I can't find in other CCGs like KeyForge.
I have a serious question for Paul and all of team APS. What are your opinions on Flundereeze?
In Magic The Gathering, there is an unofficial format called "Pauper" that only has one rule: Every card in the deck is less than a dollar.
I think a format like that for YuGiOh would make for a good facilitation of fun decks.
That may be what your local group calls Pauper, but that definitely is Not what the Pauper format is in MTG.
Pauper formats only rule is the card must be of common rarity. And commons can often be much more than a dollar.
@@MobyShtick Ooooh shoot you're right. You know what it is? I was thinking back to a Tolarian CC video where he introduced it (several.years ago) and I guess for some reason I conflated "all cards must be common" as "all cards must be less than a buck."
Thanks for the correction, dude.
@@icarus212001 Hey np, I can see that as an easy thing to mix up!
You can win with rogue decks. often those decks ar even in an advantage because they (build right) can be immune vs common cards like hhandtraps (belle, nibiru or droll) and sidedeck cards. Only because a deck is not played much doesnt mean its bad. So basically everyone needs to find the competetive Build for his Deck and the right time to play it. Also those decks often get support that would be BROKEN in already strong meta decks (traptrix sera, halqifibrax or schism)
For me it's MaidDragon, I was able to pick up the core for it very cheap and at first I wasn't impressed the more and more I played around with it, the more combos I learned. It's a pure variant so not the dragon link combo stuff, but it holds its own and I was very shocked. I went undefeated then lost in top 8 at locals with it and I was very happy with those results.
They could have sets for specific tiers of archetypes. Them they could turn the ban list into the tier list. Say a deck that was supposed to be bottom tier is dominating they "ban" it to a higher tier. Same for a deck that is underperforming downwards
We really need multiple new formats, the game is getting so stale. That way we would have many ways to play all our cards with half of them being usefull in one format and the other half being usefull in another, instead of half of them being semi-useless.
Different formats are called Rush Duel & Duel Links,Speed Duels and probably Master Duel when it comes out. There's always a lot of cards that are not useful, it'll be the same as now but with a different card pool. Plus you have Traditional format.
@@randomprofile5853 rush duel and speed duel have their own rules and cardpools, but theres some unexplored potential like using different cardpools for those. like playing rush duel using LOB cards only, or playing speed duels using dawn of majesty + 2 sidesets only as your card pool
@@helixier6629 Trying to do that casually with friends sure, although officially it would be a nightmare plus it's not made for that. Konami themselves said some alternative formats had some hype but very low attendance, plus they said fanmade format's should be maintained by fans not them(even if they would be by Konami someone will still be complaining), I personally never really cared for other formats except Duel Links & Rush Duel but that's just me.
Play Cube my dude. You get to choose what cards are allowed when you build it so you can only have the stuff you want and none of the trash.
the game is stale to you... MANY other people would disagree as the game is in a great place both casually and competitively
The main problem i've been having lately is that all the archetypes nowadays come out with 1 or 2 expensive cards, as a very budget limited player, even the kinda okayish archetypes will have fairly expensive cards. ie Arlekino started off as a 30 euro card, right now it went down to about half but that still means you'll have to pay about 90 euros just for the 2 main cards of the deck. There have been so many cool archetypes that just go out of reach because of the price, I'd be okay with it if the decks are actually competitive but for a lot of them you'll be throwing down well over 100 bucks just to make a "fun" deck.
I think you were right with the idea that Konami should try to make an alternative format and call it the "Casual Play Banlist" or something. Basically ban really broken staples and cards in archetypes that take a deck to the top tier. For example, possibly ban Nibiru and Nadir Servant...cards like that.
And even if Konami wouldn't enforce this list, it would be cool if someone with enough knowledge of the game and internet clout would create and upload this casual banlist. The biggest problem would be that you'd be talking about banning or limiting hundreds of cards on top of the current list.
I gave a FB group where we do tournaments and we tried to do a fun tournament and it was a bit of a nightmare. But a big thing that helped was that we put a limit on all floodgates and hand traps. So it was almost similar to Highlander Format. Just a few thoughts!
Bud, do you need an editor or something?
I'd love to see images pop up of the cards your talking about. Easy cuts and such.
Think in the 1st video he made on this channel he explained its just a 2nd page to vent random thoughts
@@YellowFraggle pay me the smaII bucks and I can make it a bit more visuaIIy engaging though :^)
The main issue with most if not all the low tier archetypes getting shunted aside is simple: they are incapable of making use of enough of the omni negates that high tier decks pump out each turn. To put it simply, it doesn't matter how original your deck is if it can't play through 6 negates. To start with, I think konami needs to ban most of the generic extra deck omni negates, that alone would force people to diversify and play different decks to get different payoffs for that decks niche.
In Pokemon there's a community called Smogon which ranks each Pokemon in a tier list so that they all have a use/get some play. It'd be cool there was something similar in Yugioh too.
@Team APS Plus
ok, so, what Konami/Yugioh need to do is adopt the cardfight vanguard clan mechanic and enforce pure archetype rules where you can only play that archetypes cards (and yes before you say some don't have a lot ) it would give Konami/Yugioh a means to create cards and get to to see just how much support other archetypes needs and must-have cards In order to function non its own to be even called an archetype.
for me, my biggest question is. WHY HAVE IT if it isn't going to be a major or enforced mechanic in your game function?
they enforced the different summoning mechanic and look how exploitable that is in hte game and its a basic function , why not enforce some better structure in tot he game first
I love to play my U.a and Superheavy samurai deck!!!
Yu-Gi-Oh needs a tiering system in the same sense that Pokemon has Smogon's tiering system. And usage might be a good metric for determining tiering, just like in Pokemon. If we can get analytics from Master Duel
I definitely do not agree with the Rarity tier printing idea but that being said I do think an alternate format system does need to be implemented and I like the idea of making it teir oriented
Start with putting the master rules into a set rulebook and keep them that way. Next, have one single master rule that changes every three months, with the next one being announced the month before its released.
The master rule can be anything, for example; no draw power, no hand traps, no monsters of one particular summoning mechanic, pure archetype decks only, no banlist, etc.
I feel like this would change up the game completely, in a good way.
I still say duel against friends or play a yugioh videogame and fight the AI
The AI is very capable but doesnt tend to overwhelm you as much. You can choose which era type decks to face. And you can use any combination of old and new cards.
Back on the friend option, if you take a returning player and pair them up with a returning player it sorta emulates the skill and power level balance
Additionally with the videogames the only money you spend is what you buy the game for. Everything else is typically in game currency
Wallet friendly
Plunder Patrolls have been really fun. The art work is beautiful
These discussion videos are the best idea you came up with
I like making decks for cards that have multiple effects but only get used for one. Like "Can I use Stardust Charge Warrior's attacking effect in a duel?"