That's the inherent problem with today's hand traps. They *allow* broken combo decks to exist while simultaneously completely gating off any deck that cannot play through them from entering the metagame. They are the literal core of today's issues because if they did not exist Konami could not get away with printing some of these stupid enablers and generic omni negates.
@@PathBeyondTheDark yup. Exactly my mindset. Every card that has ever been a staple 3 of in every yugioh deck had bren either limited, or banned. Why are hand traps treated differently? When every top deck in the past 4 yrs has run 3 of every handtrap, why arent they banned? Arent they the problem card?
@@thatwackycardgame5655 the reason why most hand traps aren't banned or limited is that 1:most handtraps are meta dependent meaning their power changes depending on the top decks and 2: they give players the ability to interact with the opponent on the first turn of the duel something that had been a problem for the majority of yugiohs history.
@@PathBeyondTheDark broken combo decks exist with or without hand traps. infernity(synchro and xyz) wind-up hand loop, inzektors, dragon rulers, and more existed prior to the introduction of modern day hand traps. those decks that lose to a single ashe blossom were already being gated from entering the meta do to other decks being stronger and more consistent.
A “fun” deck in my opinion is where yugioh is interactive with multiple turns. The back and forth is what is missing in current meta. Sitting for 10-15 minutes waiting for my opponent to set up a board is not fun.
Exactly this. It's this back and forth that makes it interesting to play and watch. If you can set up a full board of strong monsters that negate everything (or nothing and the opponent destroys it with just 2 cards), it's not fun. But I don't think we will ever get back to the good old times, except we re-write cards so they can't combo indefinitely
@@sharktos3218 I’m still okay if a big board can get wiped with Raigeki or something like that. Back in 5ds era it meant the player overextended. But if they would proceed to then got OTKd that’s a problem. I don’t think any of this will get solved unless they put a special summon limit in place. Which will never happen most likely.
@@alexlegrand8386 Yeah. A summon limit won't be a thing in the near future. I think we should have something to keep big boards in check, but not with a generic spell every deck can play.
"What does your deck do anyway?" _Me, looking at my hybrid deck running a Cyber Dragon, Gadget and XYZ engine_ It plays Ties of the Brethren and loses on the next turn
But that's just rephrasing the question. What is "unfair" every deck plays something somewhat unfair, whether it be putting up negates or generating large amounts of card advantage.
@@IamGrimalkin Like the video said, it's difficult to define. "Unfair" is subjective. Best you can do is create a list of "banned" cards or strategies and go from there, but that won't always be so simple. I get people get annoyed by rooms with "no ASH BLOSSOM" or something like that, but at least they are being transparent rather then just saying "only fun decks."
We need a Team APS Plus podcast. Paul and one or 2 other members discuss topics like this in the greatest detail and fully expand on it. Also maybe deck building tips/ideas, how to fix cards or how to limit the overly powerful cards. I know y’all do a lot as is but that may be something worth talking about
Yeah that'd be awesome. Paul has a great voice for podcasting. Would absolutely love to listen to like a more in depth, hour long segment from TeamAPS.
I'd be so into a Team APS podcast where it's like Paul and Calvin, or next week Paul and Larry, or Trell or so on and so forth. I'd watch the shit out of that.
I remember my locals having a fun deck tournament that worked out really well. The only constraints were: current banlist and no cards over $15. The idea with that is that if it's over $15 it's not accessible to everyone which gives that player an unfair advantage. It's a more objective rule, still makes you think of your deck choice or how to adapt a deck and some pretty cool stuff happened
@@JohnnyCProduction This is why I'll never truly understand why Konami bans cards outside of blatant FTKs/loops, or why people constantly whine about the ban list needing to "fix" the game. Your Deck is either going to eventually be power crept, or it'll still be perfectly fine to use.
@@gabudaichamuda2545 I think its more complicated then that, the point is to make as many decks viable as possible. If virtual world, Drytron, Dinosaur, dogmatika and especially eldlich got hit a lot more decks would see play than currently (even though to be fair this format is pretty diverse)
Something a locals did around my area was a tournament they called "Super Limited". Basically, they had a custom ban list that limited every card in the game to 1. It resulted it some pretty creative deck building that was fun. Dunno if that's a *great* idea, but it was certainly interesting.
that kinda sounds like trinity format, You should check it out. Its similar to what your locals did. In trinity there are still banned cards, but its not Pot of Greed Or graceful chairty. its cards like Aliester and Ultimate conductor Tyranno, singular powerful cards that don't need much support to be busted. There Is a point system involved to gain access to multiple copies of a card, or access to power cards like Pot of Greed. But in general its a bunch of 1 offs and anything goes.
Not all casual decks are created equal, especially when looking at decks that were from different eras of Yugioh, it’s best to organize individual matches between people who play decks of similar power level.
yes! i wish people would make decks of different difficulty level and match it with their opponent's level to play. This way no one is deprived or would be too scared to try out.
Well yeah, actually being able to play the game is what most people consider fun. Everytime I try and play Yu-Gi-Oh which is sparingly now I always get reminded why that is almost instantly because what ends up happening is either I get stunned by a single hand trap or my board gets wiped because I didn't get out a generic staple to stop it essentially making so I don't get to play the game. There's way too many hoops to jump through just to be able to actually have a satisfying turn.
@@randomusername3445 when people say they don’t get to play I don’t understand, I’ve been playing the same 3 decks for like 5-6 years since middle school adjusting to the meta adding in staples and tech choices. You’re playing yugioh in 2021 you will get hit with a handtraps it’s been that way since synchro era board wipes happen it’s part of the game. If you make a deck that loses to handtraps and all the other cards that keep getting reprinted for the masses I don’t think it’s the games fault
Facts Username. Not being able to play is the worst. Butt load of negates, hand traps, board wipes..... you can piss off with that. A fun game is playing your turn and seeing your opponent play their turn with tons of back and forth. That’s why I play duel links. So long as I avoid the top of the top decks I have freedom on what deck to use and gave genuine fun.
@@rd9669 it is though because card games do that on purpose so you buy the new cards, it's like powerscaling without out the power just the scaling, for example, why would use drill synchron when you can use quickdraw and a level one, you get to special summon and normal summon easily and you sent something to the graveyard without you opponent interfering, it's less about being forced to buy new cards and your own want to stay at the top that makes you buy new cards to keep up, somepeople don't care about competitive anything, you think people that jog are trying to get into the olympics no it's just fun so when other people kill that fun by racing the casual jogger while they themselves are training for the olympics there is no doubt that the olympic runner is gonna win
I can get behind this, I only play casually with a couple of mates, but all of us try and keep our decks "pure" to the theme. One of my mates got furious when he saw I used Impcantation cards together with my Megaliths
@@Daman3tm Some people don't want to win and that's fine but if it's a good deck then I think it's really cool if you can get lots of different cards to work togther. It's one of the best things about this game is how creative you can be we have aprox. 11,400 cards and we can use any combination of them to construct a deck this is crazy with no limits except the ban/limit list of course. But really people that feel that limits on deck construction need to be added can play some other less free game like magic or vanguard. These games require you to play either lands or clans which will corospond to a deck type. Yu-Gi-Oh! is great because of the choice and it's crazy what you can make :)
Back when I played my brother I used to love battling my simorgh boss against his ancient gear boss in an epic battle. Now it's " I gonna do everything in my power to make sure that when your turn starts i can negate anything you do".
I can't even play my "fun" Nordic or Valkyries decks at locals nowadays because the power level of those decks are much weaker when compared to other "fun" decks that may be more consistent or powerful. Not every deck is created equal. Just play with friends.
Exactly! Nordics need the "anime" effects instead of the TCG effect...Like that Nordic Ascendant Valkyrie that you need to banish 2 Nordic Monsters to summon 2 tokens in TCG but in anime you banish ANY 2 cards from your hand? That is much better and not specific
You can play at locals just don’t play in the tournament where stuff is on the line. I have multiple decks some top tier and some fun. My dark magician deck is for fun and I like playing with it. I win some field sometimes but it’s not top tier meta.
Fun-Decks are Decks with a non-competetive background. They are not designed to set up unbreakable Boards, FTK'S or OTK's. They also do not keep either player from playing the Game by using to much Floodgates. They are designed to possibly win and maybe doing cool stuff. It's like you are trying to make bad Cards work or build a Deck to resemble an Anime Character from the Show etc. The important thing here is, that both Players enjoy the Game and do not care much about the outcome of the Duel. My Playgroup for example likes to build Decks of Anime Characters and look if it is possible to Win against an Opponent they haven't dueled in the Show. Like Weevil Vs Marik, Zane Vs Shark or A.I. Vs Kaiba. Sometimes we make Challenges like: Use Cards with Coin flips or Lv 5. an 6 Normal Monsters. If winning isn't important to you and you are not keeping others from playing the Game, then you've made a Fun-Deck.
Exactly! It should't be that hard to figure out. Check which decks are the top tiers, limit the most OP cards they use, or ban the ones they give them crazy consistency, and boom. More Balanced game.
I agree knowing the outcome of a game because the opponent plays Deck X with x negates x Boss Monsters in turn 1 in XX minutes makes the game pointless and theres no interaction like when playing with friends or requesting a nun competitive approach
For me, fun decks are the ones that create entertaining moments for the people playing. I played a Malefic deck against my friends and the look on their faces when I'm slapping down multiple 4000atk monsters on turn 1 is pretty funny. What's even more hilarious is how a single feather duster would literally wipe it all away.
@@omega5040 They're only playable as long as there's a field spell on the board. Also you can only have one unless you play Malefic Territory which lets you have multiple as long as they have different names.
My personal favorite is Mound of the Bound Creator. Necrovalley, Summon Breaker, and Future Visions and also great options. Oh and Mystic Mine if you're feeling like removing the "fun."
I feel like Konami kind of needs to stop printing new archetypes for a while and just focus on legacy support or even just archetypes that just fell flat
I agree with you dude , also most old archetypes have got better art design than new 'unbalanced' archetypes they need 4 example to release new support cards for harpies and red eyes dragons they are so weak till now , i dont know why old main characters decks are not supported with new cards 🤔
Fun is subjective. I like playing through negates and setting up negates. But outright prevention of mechanics (Shock Master, All Calamities, Secret Village) is where I would draw the line of "Yeah, this isn't fun to play or play against." I will play them if I can play them because my playgroup is more competitive and everybody runs hand traps and tries to make their decks as meta as possible. But if it fun? No. Do they call me a hypocrite for playing those cards when they lose to it? Yes. Ironically enough...
@@phoenix578 They are fun to play but terrible to play against. Imo for a deck to be considered a (fun) deck, it needs to be both fun to play yourself and fun to play against so a negate deck isn't a fun deck.
Custom banlist tournaments do sound like a fun idea, just don't advertise it as a "fun deck tournament" It's true that there's always going to be something that's overall better than others, but if you make the list restrictive enough, whatever ends up being the best could very well be something that would otherwise be considered jank.
We really nee some good official alternate formats, i think that would help a lot and it's really annoying they almost had it done with speed duels but completely f'ed it up requiring buying 20Yr old cards etc
dude will it make konami money if no then they will not do it simple as goats has a bit of a following but it would need to have turnoment support form something like ARG to get off the ground
to be honest i dont like speed duel and heres why: Yugioh to some people has the problem that theres to much going on in 1 turn. In order to kinda fix this konami decided to restrict your plays by reducing the field. However that isnt even the core of the problem. The problem with the complaint people have results out of no restrictions for the amount of special summons each turn. It currently worked in duel links but only because they arent even into the link mechanic yet. We already saw an increase of playtime per turn in duel links with the new sets they get. As soon as they receive link monsters aswell this playtime will go up even more leading to the same problem with the game some people have right now in standard. The new restrictions in this format arent really gamechanging, its missleading because you play with older cards, thats what changes the game pace.
@@josepharmstrong6852 I feel that are correct that Konami thinks like that but its short sided on their part. Having even a second format would create buzz for new cards in new boxes that would be filler otherwise. It also creates a much needed entry point and net for people coming into or leaving the first format. You increase your user base, you increase your sales, you get money, money is an object that can be exchanged for goods and services. Honestly they have the tools to create different formats at hand. Konami, if they are lazy dicks, could just make each special creature summon a format. So a synchro format, xyzs, fusion, ect. That would at least breath life into old decktypes and avoid the inevitable loss of players when a new gimmick changes the game. I personally would like something like mtgs pulper where you can only play common or uncommons that are mass printed and therfore "cheap". That would be a great way to people unwilling to pay for a meta deck at meta prices.
@@notaraven They need to make a cool show that's bad ass and bit edgy and cool and apeal to 12-16 years old this should be there aim. And have the show explain complex things like how different cards work would be nice but speed duels where the attempt. The key is the show for sure
For me, my fun decks are more along the lines of using mostly cards of the archetype and seeing if I can pull off a win here and there. For instance, I have a Rokket Deck that using mostly Rokket and Topologic stuff. There are no hand traps and no super strong traps. Just alot of old school stuff that I like (mirror force, D Prison, etc.) I use whatever links I want, but felt the guardragon package was too strong.
I agree. This is why when i build decks, i try to make them as many archetype specific cards as possible and then put maybe a couple of generic cards (like allure of darkness in raidraptors, for example).
The only thing that enforces fun is interaction. Equal interaction where both players get to do what they need to win. And where card economy and advantage are what you need to keep in mind to have a chance at winning or outresourcing your opponent. Banning doesnt do shit if interactive play isnt enforced
Even if you remove all generic card like VFD etc. A lot of "fun" decks can still end on powerful boards that can't be outed easily without staples. Like for example if Heroes make Dark Law and a set Mask Change etc, a lot of meta decks let alone casual decks can't reliably out that without staples. Then if you give people staples you have situations where both decks lose to one Gamma or whatever so it becomes whoever opens the put wins or sometimes both players in a top deck war.
@@finnianfanning3136 there's a difference between powerful and overpowered. Yes that board is strong, But it's no dragoon + savage dragon. For your example there's a bunch of 1-card ways to out half the board, For the second one only super-poly can out it without requiring multiple handtraps or floodgates.
@@Paradox-ih7rp I know, Consistent and Unbreakable do not go together, But you probably agree that there's a different power level for different end boards. I picked something that's relatively easy to get to, But I know there's quite a few things to counter it.
That would be perfect for this. Have like a tournament based on any archetype that came out during the original Duel Monsters story or one featuring only GX archetypes
This even was an official tournament: A Cross-Banlist where the banlists avaliable were based on the Eras of the Game (DM - ARC-V, not receiving official updates since). Top 4 would win a playmat based on the Era they played. It's called "Generation Duel Tournament". My favourite banlist from this tournament is the DM one. It lets you play the broken stuff (Yata-Lock, Pog of Greed an other DM staples, etc. Everything pre-Errata), but in exchange you can't use any effect monster not quoted in that list, or even Ritual/Extra Deck monsters (That's the only part I don't actually like, because it would be nice to have more modern archetype support). It lets you play Gandora, the Magician Girls and the Silents, and I think that's neat.
Fun to me is everything. I like everything thrown at me. I don't care if the entire tournament is Drytron and Virtual World (at this moment for example.) It just makes it that much sweeter when I win, so I am never one to complain about how decks are broken or too powerful. They can be beat with skill and cunning deck choices for that particular event. Tonight at my locals, Madolche was running the tables and plowed through Virtual World and Drytron (at those two players were quite good.) The Madolche player knew his deck well and had some spicy tech. This is "fun" to me and how I wish more people would play. Just play the deck you like the most, make it as competitive as you can, and start slinging the cardboard.
Same. My favorite matchups are against vw and drytron. The win is just so much better when I play through chuche, vfd rather than infinity pass. I don't personally play meta just because I don't like the idea of having to spend a ton and just throw the deck out later. I play dragunity and I love facing those decks. I love when I get handtrapped because it forces me to think of alternative routes and not just play the same ten minute combo every time.
Maybe a for-fun tournament could be something like, "Here is the list of allowable cards," or maybe, "Hey it's Robots week," so you get to see what people do with whatever theme is chosen.
I think when we use "fun" in YuGiOh terms, can be used for those decks that we have used in the older days. Decks that have had simple game plans. Pretty much "caveman" YuGiOh. Of course, there are plenty of players that probably never played those types of decks or those types of rules before and probably would never consider trying the old ways out. But it is as you said, fun is extremely subjective and trying to narrow down what is a fun deck is hard. Like I enjoy playing Blue-Eyes, Ancient Gears, and Blackwings. Those I can consider as fun decks because of their simple play and not exactly trying to build unbreakable boards, even though they have the capability in doing so. So all in all, I think the simple decks that isn't trying to do the "break my board" strategy is in line with fun decks. I mean, we may make fun of this deck, but I can consider War Rocks in that line.
Tbh, I feel like the answers I hear to what makes a "fun" deck are pretty common and not too hard to put together; limited special summons per turn, limited negations per turn, ban certain hand traps, ban certain staples (ex. Dragoon), ban omni-negates (ex. VFD, Utopic Zexal) and ban certain big floodgates (ex. Mystic Mine, Vanitys). Certainly, a "meta" would still form under this, but I think some people would still prefer that type of slower, limited meta over the general one. Hopefully I'm not just putting words in other people's mouths though; I personally don't think I would play under this myself and would much rather trick a deck out with as much as I can, nor am I saying this would necessarily work, but this is what I've generally heard from my time in the community.
It’s really interesting coming from a magic background, our “for fun” format EDH has a lot of the same grievances you talk about here! People have tried for years to put a number on “fun”, biggest thing I’ve come away with? Theme decks are the most fun! You want a dragon deck, cool that’s sweet. You want everything in the deck to be odd mana? Cool!
Having a ‘fun’ format is literally impossible to keep in check. Regardless of how many ‘fun’ decks there are. There will always be a card or deck that will be the ‘best’ or ‘least fun’.
Agreed. I think it’s more about closing the gap between “fun and playable decks” and what we have now which is borderline a coin toss to see who goes first and makes an unbreakable board. Getting beat by better cards is one thing but at least let me interact
I think the major problem with a "fun" deck tournament is that you can't define fun for anyone. I'd say a tier system would be easier to implement with people opting into tiers that their archetypes would fit into on a list of archetypes and cards. It could be similar to how the pokemon games split up their competitive tournaments online in Smogon. In case someone reading this is unfamiliar, smogon singles in pokemon are tiered by use percentages. The best pokemon are used a lot and so they fit into Over Used, then you got down the tiers based on how often they see use all the way down to untiered and PU. I imagine something like this could work for non-konami held tournaments since that would generally put some equality on the tiers. I'd definitely also say that each tier would need a small banlist of limited and semi-limited to sort of chokehold people who might think of intentionally building a "bad" deck with meta cards in order to take advantage of the lower power level of the lower tiers.
That would be interesting, there's already a tier system somewhat in place, it doesn't affect gameplay but it does categorize by power level, maybe keep extending it down through 12-15 instead of ending at 2, and then have a community like Smogon running the different formats.
I think these "fun deck" tournaments reminds me of a skit Team APS did where Calvin is typing out rules and saying things like "no hand traps, no meta, no Xyz, etc.". The idea of a "fun deck tournament" is fundamentally flawed since some people take fun in different aspects. Some people like having fun defeating opponents in one turn because it shows that they know how ratios work, while some like the back and forth in a duel. It's sketchy overall, even if there are custom banlists to limit what kinds of decks can exists. My fun deck is Buster Blader, especially in a tag duel when my partner is playing Blue-Eyes or Red-Eyes.
I feel like a "fun" deck in YuGiOh is a deck that has the ability to pull off good, not too long combos that don't interfere with the opponent's field and allows both players to use their decks to its fullest extent with little interruptions throughout the duel.
I don't get this argument, why are you playing a 2 player card-game if you don't want any interaction between players, you might as well just play alone.
I would think the problem just lies in the metagame since 2020, there is a giant frickin' chasm in powercreep, and support for older decks is often times just not enough or overbalanced. like time thiefs Day 300 of waiting for Vendread support
I was actually at this tournament! I think many of us had the same complaints and arguments made in this video. As someone already said, “not all casual decks are created equal.” But all in all it was a fun tourney.
Custom banlists and "fun tournaments" are fundamentally flawed because something else will always be broken compared to everything else. It's way too subjective and is full of just bias. The part I find most fun about Yugioh is ending on a big boss that sits there (Arrival Cyberse @ Ignister) or shutting my opponent down completely (Necrovalley), or even just a combo toolbox (Ignisters/Fortune Ladies), and I know other players despise at least one of those. It's just impossible to please everyone, so Konami just tries to keep it as relatively balanced as possible.
The most fun deck design I did was back in the 5Ds era; it was based on cards that switched battle positions regularly, either as a trigger (Stumbling), timer (Labyrinth of Nightmare), or reaction (Zero Gravity), and cards with effects that took advantage of position switching (Blade Rabbit) or that tried to use position switching as a disadvantage (Goblin Attack Force et. al.). It was a supremely frustrating deck to play against, but it would force my more competitively minded friends to find workarounds or play disadvantaged moves on purpose, so as to "trick" the deck to their true movements. Even caused a small debate on whether Zero Gravity or No Entry could be used to disrupt battle destruction effects reliant on Attack Position monsters.
you seem to be confused with "what deck is fun" and "do some players only have fun winning" the problem with asking what is "fun" is that its like asking "how long is a piece of string" the problem you are running in to is that in yugioh theres a ton of sweatlords who would abuse any rule or exception to a rule to win because their step dad always made fun of them for playing this game.
I have always wanted the yugioh community to have a 'Smogon style' tier system so that weaker decks could have a place to shine. This video highlights all of the problems such a tier list would bring. I still think it would work, but it would have to be included in some kind of simulator so people don't have to remember which of the 100 staples are legal at any given tier.
I miss when several decks legitimately stood a chance. There was always a good 2-3 decks that were the best, but the gap used to be so much smaller. It never sounded crazy to hear that Heroes or 6 Samurai beat Inzektors or chaos dragons. Now if you don't run a specific 2-3 decks it's over for you
Everyone has their own definition. Some people prefer longer games. Some people prefer gimmicks. Some people prefer fast OTKs. Some just prefer cool artwork/lore/anime cards.
@@josepharmstrong6852 Fun is subjective is his point, some people will like different things, and it's hard to create compromises that will please every single player.
This is a difficult subject to talk about,but it's important to discuss this,because if want the game to continue we should adress these concerns.There is no single answer,but thanks for having the conversation! In my opinion,decks that do unique combos while mainting player interaction are what help to create a fun duel.
Be honest APS the fun hasn’t been there since the playground days acting out the Tv episodes and sending your arch nemesis to the shadow realm til lunch
I’d have to say fun decks are ones that 1. Don’t focus on winning in the first 2 turns 2. Don’t literally prevent your opener from doing anything. 3. Allow for good back and forth and late game recovery. 4. Can have a decent win/loss ratio instead of “wins 90% of the time or 0% of the time”
So to some the video up: Casuality and "F-U-N" are defined by competitiveness through distinction, yet still defined by it; so excluding it makes no real sense outside of oneselves understanding/perspective
When i think of a "fun" deck, i think of archetype based decks or building decks based off anime/manga characters. Like you only use cards directly linked to your archetype or character of choice.
Ima keep it 100 when people say anime only theme deck i wanna barf i feel like its because they got no skill to build a deck that does something and it don't even got to be meta but i be going off
@@AMV_KINGDOM_mv I build character decks because I enjoyed the anime growing up. I still have competitive decks as well, I dont see how that is a measure of skill level
The president of the Yugioh club at my school decided we were going to do a “casual” tournament fall of 2018, and it was obvious we were playing with his definitions of casual. 1st he said no hand traps, then decided to limit the hand trap ban to the ghost girls and Veiler. I questioned why evenly wasn’t considered and he argued it’s not a hand trap, despite it literally being a trap you can activate from the hand. Then I asked I could play crow. His response was, “Is crow a ghost girl or veiler?” But then when he realized he forgot to list gamma in the rules, he just added it. I regret not responding to that announcement with, “is gamma a ghost girl or Veiler?” Then it got ridiculous. My friend wanted to play invoked ritual bls, and wasn’t allowed to because he was told the invoked engine made it meta 🤔. He was allowed to play danger dark world, which while still not meta, is a far better deck than invoked bls. This President also told me earlier that year that ash blossom made my dark magician deck meta while he was playing fluffals but demanded that he didn’t have to use mr4.
Amen. Fun of course is subjective. But I also prefer to play the game AND let my opponent play the game. All this negates just hurt this game. Doesnt matter if its in the form of Apollousa, Handtraps, Mystic Mine or "insert other cardname here", it just sucks to do nothing.
While I hear this let me play devils advocate. So I'll let my opponent play but what if they just top deck a staple that kills me (evenly matched etc) have they really "beat" me? See what I mean?
@@thehippieboy6927 I am not calling that fun not at all. I agree to an extent. Personally fun for me is playing decks at similar scaling (even meta) like in meta sure they boards are ridiculous but other meta decks can break them so it makes a whole mind game and interactive games regardless. Same with rogue decks facing each other. See what I mean?
@@luxray4911 Definitely! I just think this game has a lot of gray areas where fun/low-tier decks are concerned. Some would say anything that's not meta or rogue is considered "fun," but then you've got decks like Gravekeepers suddenly becoming competitively viable. It's like people want combo decks but not TOO many combos, or they want control decks but not TOO much control. Idk where the balance is
IMO a fun deck idea for a tournament would be to hold a Tourney where the banlist doesn't exist, just take the banned cards and limit them to one in most cases. I'm sure it would be wild. Sounds fun to me though im sure it has its issues.
Honestly, I don't see a major issue with "fun decks". My friends and I love using joke/gimmick decks in Project Ignis for a laugh. ...Now making a "fun deck only" in person tourney? Yeah, that's a little strange. Also, not a fan of the people who go to Yu-Gi-Oh! tourneys, lose and reply with, "well, I only lost because I'm playing with my fun deck". Like, if you aren't there to play competitively, what were you realistically expecting?
I think its fine to go to a tourney with a weird deck that isnt meta or has problems, like if someone had like an ojama deck or something, like i would say odds are they arent placing well, but might have some fun, i mean admitedly yeah they should go in expecting to lose and i mean at the point they dont even need to say "i only lost because im playing with my fun deck" because well its ojamas you know? I think its probably a waste of time to make fun decks in "tourney/ meta competition" but personally im not a huge fan of competition/tournament scene and think its more fun to just mess around then to google "what is the meta" and get all of your staple cards and try to make a deck/ shell out some money for the new hotness...then again i just am more of a casual anyway lol, and i understand for some people its fun to make competitive/meta decks and be the very best but i find that kinda boring, and i feel in most scenarios many people will probably be running very similar decks.... also it seems like "people summon a bunch of monsters in one turn" and try to ftk or set up a board that has lots of crazy shit on there and negates and just seems a bit over the top. admitedly i mostly never "played yugioh" i got in to yugioh on the original duel monsters and whenever i played it was on the different games, and most of them werent even really yugioh, like duelist of the roses or falsebound kingdom.... The most recent i have "actually played yugioh the way its mean to be played was when i got the legacy of the duelist game, as well as messing around in duel links.... Admitedly after writing all of this i guess im kinda agreeing with you, but i wonder how much of the community of yugioh is "casual" it seems like a lot of fans of yugioh are "hardcore" and focus on the meta and spend a lot of money on cards and all that stuff ya know.... it just seems a bit meh to me but thats all up to personal taste i guess. EDIT: I think what i would like would be certain formats like as an example "cant use any cards after gx" or something like that, just different formats would be fun and different rules would be kinda fun.
A realy fun yugioh game for me is one that has interruptions/interactions sprinkled throughout, as opposed to the games where every single thing gets negated
I miss the days when in like MR3 my friend and I would go back and forth with quite a lot of decks, mainly him playing Six Sam and me Blackwings. That was fun imo. Now I find myself having my opponent combo off like crazy to make a board that negates everything I do, hand trap me, or rarely stall. I'm enjoying playing Rose Dragons but it's not like my deck's designed to ftk or anything, I just like how it plays and interacts. Often though in more competitive yugioh I see a lot less interaction.
I think you could make a point system that you can then build decks with certain point restrictions. No 5 point cards or make a deck with 50 points max
If you made a digital game you could easily use the massive block of data captured from these game to determine the points for the distribution which you want. Like saying I want all level seven cards to see roughly equal use. Problem is that this doesn't make money.
@@josephcourtright8071 I think in paper just set every staple to 5 point tier and everything else to one point. Run a locals to make decks without any staples for a month and see what deck lists pop up. Anything that forms new staples populates the 4 point tier. Repeat for the 3 and 2 point tiers. Then just hold tournaments with different sub rules and if any card sees overwhelming usage try and promote it a tier. Eventually you'll have more formats and uses for cards that no one ever plays in competitive. Publish lists on some forums of the tiers and maybe other locals hold some tournaments. Eventually konami can take notice and support it. Konami already kinda does it with the ban list but doesn't tier legal cards to have more formats.
The only thing that should matter in an explicitly “fun” format is each participant is aware and considerate of their opponents’ enjoyment. Obviously, you can’t balance a “fun deck” exclusive tournament with a ban/limit list. However, as participants in an explicitly “fun” game/tournament/event, you implicitly agree to; play in a manner which encourages your opponent to participate and allows them opportunities to do so.
Fun for me is playing a heavy theme deck or “pure” deck that has some out of archetype cards to help the deck but outshine what the theme is. Also a deck that isn’t too polarizing too the point where the opponent legitimately can’t do anything against it The subject of fun and hand traps is also quite subjective because it’s not fun just trying to play your deck and something gets ashed and now your turn is basically over depending on your deck and that definitely isn’t fun, on the other side of the fence tho it isn’t fun to go against this big combo that locks you down or at least makes a really strong board and you have to just take it without the assistance of a hand trap Sooooo yeah that’s a real tricky subject
A “fun” gameplay experience to me is a place where there is a level of interactivity. Both players should at least both start a turn with a feeling where they could win. If you stare down a VFD, Vanity’s Ruler, floodgates or 6+ negate boards that just stun you out even if you opened your best hand possible, that isn’t fun to me. I also believe that game enders like Borrelsword and Accesscode are much more fair since you can stop the monster itself or stop your opponent before they make it.
@@eleonarcrimson858 yes I think control formats are great. Lots of interactivity and strategic plays. You trying to time your disruption correctly while your opponent tries to get you to make a mistake is probably my favourite kind of playstyle
My definition of fun decks are any decks that don't require much thinking when playing the decks. For me, something like Gren Maju is pretty linear enough to know what the strategies are
I agree with you very much. Depending on the pilot of a deck too remember when Jeff Jones won a ycs with earth phychics. That could have been concidered by some people to be rouge or fun. I feel this also can change with the meta season as well.
I think that “fun decks” have to allow for the game to not be set in stone by turns 4-6. What I mean by that is that a fun duel should constitute a back and forth, without being in situations so early on where you’re having everything negated or locked out (I clarify early turn because the opponent should be able to devise a counter strategy with their hands to work around whatever has been set up. That is why I don’t necessarily believe that cards like RoW and Gozen Match are that bad. They put certain conditions up, but don’t put you on a turn two Omni-negate like Borreload S. and Dragoon. I use almost entirely “casual” decks, with things like Koa’ki Meirus and Steelswarms. Duels with friends often go like 20 turns, and setting monsters face down actually becomes a mind game. I wish that newer and current Yugioh players could experience the thrill of that, and step away from associating “fun” with destroying your opponent turn 1.
As a combo player I enjoy seeing cool big monsters being flung around the field, for me it's like seeing the fantasy of that first episode of YGO, where Kaiba cheats out 3 Blue Eyes, being done legally within the constraints of the game. What I don't like about combo decks is when they can put out too many negates. For instance, one of my favorite combo decks, Photon, can't always access their big negate monsters. I like being able to put out Titanic and Photon Lord, but that's only two negates and takes either a good hand, no interruption, or both. And I feel that's fair. I think Drytron is a cool archetype, my problem with it is the abuse of non-opt effects that causes the deck to go in to really dumb boss monsters. I don't think Perfect or Ultimateness should exist, omni's should either be one per chain, once per turn, or be Appo since you can bait out one negate and then kill her and combo off despite the investment. Also ban all the floodgates. All of them. If an effect shuts your opponent out of any mechanic for even a full turn, ban it.
Fun in yugioh used to be when you would see a variety of different decks and play against them not just the same old shit that you just played 30 times the exact same way with all the same cards because they got the card list off RUclips 😤
I'm not an expert on game design or anything, but personally, I think the core of a fun duel for me is two decks that are consistent and have lots of recovery, but they *don't* have much disruption. I find this usually means that both decks can do what they want to, neither deck can swing for too much damage at once, and can actually come back after a bad interaction. I usually find this results in back-and-forth games that actually go past turn 3. Now, that said, I am a mega casual player, like I play Elemental Hero Shining Flare Wingman turbo and most of my friends play largely directionless, anime inspired decks and largely unaltered structure decks. So no, I'm not exactly good at this game, but I have fun.
The term "Fun" is a bit too generic for what people are trying to describe as non-meta or non-competitive decks. Locals should consider possible themed deck tournaments or card limits. How about anime style where you're only allowed 1 of each card in a deck? (forbidden list still in force of course)
Damn this would be heat. I wonder how it would work if a tournament tried almost like a football pool style. Where you sign your name in a random box, and then archetypes/attributes/types/win conditions could be thrown in the rows and columns.
I'm someone who's always advocating for "fun" decks, and this was a very insightful take. Personally I think a big idea behind the "fun decks" tournaments is to change up the metagame, it will not make so there are no meta decks, but will make so the new meta is far less powerful, and far different, from the older one. Compare trying to duel against VW/Drytron vs something like Infernoble, as an example. In your own Discord (Team APS Community's Discord) there was a 3v3 tournament with a custom banlist, that was the only tournament I've participated and the sheer variety there was so refreshing - Besides 3 hero players and 2 zombies all other decks were completely different from the last one. I even heard someone went with cardians. It's true that some "fun" decks will be stronger than others, but that doesn't change that they are going to be different from the meta if applied correctly. I would say the best way is to have whoever is organizing the tournament form an extra banlist to ensure what would be considered "fun", having all else be fair game.
Fun decks between my friends are only possible in free-for-all multiplayer format. That way you introduce so many elements that top tier decks ended up getting ganged up on. But we usually play theme and older school decks (Chaos Control); it usually works out. We haven't played much after Pendulum was introduced.
I’ve had a lot of thought about this myself. And I’m going to keep thinking about it because the game needs resolution in this matter. The problem with having such a vast, immediate-access common knowledge of the games competitive structure, is that the game is turning into a “who can memorize and exploit the most statistically probable to succeed deck first”. With each new release, the cards are vastly studied and probed for their compatibility with existing game mechanics, almost to the point it stresses people out because, as it’s been mentioned in other videos, if you don’t build that newest hottest deck (that hundreds of other people are building card-for-card) by the time the next release happens in a few weeks or months, it’s no longer of much if any value, as it’s been inherently outmatched. This matters in a deep way because it’s taking the players creativity out of the game. Why should I sort my 2,000+ card collection and piece together my own options for my own specific, interesting deck, when I know there’s a few specific decks that cannot be outmatched per tournaments (a.k.a. The place where we can all have the chance to gather and enjoy the game with more people than just ourselves and our 1 or 2 hometown friends)? It’s just a big problem; there does need to exist a “fun decks” mode, it isn’t optional for the survival of the game. Everyone is going to get burnt out being so over-studied on their certainty of the cards they must play. What excited us as kids with this game was knowing that the options were endless, that we could build our own signature deck and have our own identity in the game after the hard work of piecing different cards together into a well made deck. We weren’t strapped into one specific game board layout, the options could shift and change. Now, signature decks do not matter at all, and it’s honestly nearly turned the game into a matter of rng/luck. Whoever draws the best combo-inducing card first wins. “Woop de doo”, but nothing special actually happened, it’s just that the same combo that’s been played a million times upon release due to the underlying competitive nature of the game, resulting in a victory. But the victories don’t mean much if the gameplay isn’t diverse and interesting. That isn’t to say that those circumstances aren’t appropriate at tournament level, there’s nothing at all wrong with the more serious side of the game. But there’s thousands of cards that never see any play at all due to this, and the games capabilities need to be able to reach far beyond the tournament room, to peoples living room tables, where it can be made exciting and explorable. If the whole games reach continues on this path towards “have a tournament worthy deck or else you’re wasting your time on the table”, it’s going to fade away and sadly become the subject of boredom for most people. I hate to say that but it’s happening, and needs addressed. Sorry for the rant, I know this is lengthy, and like I said I have some ideas, but it’s going to take a collective work from the community to make this happen. A lot of people play old formats of the game to keep it “fun”. This is fine, but it’s a little in the taboo area as it can cause us to get confused about updated game rules and dynamics. It’s not the solution, anyways. There’s needs to be a consistently up-to-date-with-meta gameplay version of Yu-Gi-Oh that creates a quality, creative, casual gameplay, for the good of everyone playing this game, noob to pro.
I love rogue decks. I try to bring a different deck to locals weekly. Downside of that is that my locals is very meta filled and it's hard to have fun sometimes. Idk if maybe an agreement to limit hand traps to one copy each would help. An idea I had was a draft like banlist where let's say 10 people sign up, we each ban one card that week in addition to the normal list. It would boil down as you said to people finding the best deck in that case but I think that's unavoidable. I think it's sad how konami doesn't support archetypes more equally.
honestly that would be kinda fun and change deckbuilding up a bit i think, i feel like searching cards would be much more powerful but it would be kind of a fun challenge
I'd love it if Yu-Gi-Oh had a Pauper format, Sure it'd just be another meta that's all about handtraps and negation, As basically all of the well-known handtraps have a common printing. But at least it would be different from the main format.
So “fun” decks can still be meta decks but it requires the knowledge of all the players in said tournament to know each decks power in level. Some examples are if a majority of players bring decks can do what they want or if majority of players bring meta decks cause they find them fun. Other example is magic most players besides the draft or competitive scene they would run power levels equal to what was most common at the locals or say what level they playing at depends on the local with this example tho. I think “fun” tournaments can exist in yugioh the tournament rules will have to be very clear about what majority of players running and what is very problematic in terms of how powerful of a card due to meta deck standards.
It's almost impossible unless you want to have dates or years for cards release where you have -1998 -2005 is a old format and 1998-2010 another format you would need to have something like that. But you would just get the meta of the time resurfacing this comes down to konami needs to have cards of different power levels in a set to sell it and have enough chase cards that obvisly have to be stronger thus we have weaker cards how weak vs strong the better the cards is a tricky blance
What my locals does is "casual" tournaments where we don't play anything tier 1 from last 3 years or smth big tournaments and then at the end we vote for the player we believed had the best sportsmanship or the most fun/cool deck. We prevent abuse by only allowing votes for those who the player had dueled against. Prizing goes as normal but is based on votes and if votes are a tie then we use standings. Very cool and stress-free format that we all love
When I think about fun decks or fun duel, I usually think about when I used to play my Horus the black flame dragon Lv.8. Simpler times when you and your opponent actually go back and forth destroying each other's monster cards. Idk if what I'm saying resonates with anyone but man, things were just better. Don't get me wrong I still play those "fun" decks today with a little added spice to keep up with today's standards but it doesn't feel the same. Idk I'm just rambling like Paul does smh lol 😆
Playing against summon with a deck that doesn't have hand traps is fun to me. Being able to watch my opponent construct a board and then overcoming it with my own cards by finding a way to get around it with cards I already have and cards that don't necessarily belong in the archetype, but synergize well with the theme or playstyle of the deck is really cool and I feel that's what yugioh is missing now
6:24 THAT is literally it. It's all we want. You cant make a competitive multiplayer game and then the game becomes a one player game. If it does that at any point then the game is garbage and unbalanced. The only thing that was ever supposed to do that was starting the game with Exodia which was a 5*40/5 or /6 if going second. Aka, A ridiculous percentage for that ever to happen
Even though it bricks a lot and is horribly inconsistent, I always love playing my Odd-Eyes deck. Not only does it allow me to use every summoning method (well I don't run Gravity Dragon because lol), but something about being able to vomit out 2500 beatsticks and go ham is just dope as hell. Plus once in a blue moon I draw Xiangke and can go into Odd-Eyes Raging which is always cool to see it resolve.
Let’s be honest we all know what “fun decks” are and what cards they use can or can’t use, but some people are either so competitive or “trolly” that it creates content for your video
Honestly this video gives me the feeling how people interpret “Fun” is the same mindset one of my friends have which is: “If anything is good against me or if anything counters me or if a player is just better than me I hate it! It’s not fun, f*ck this game!” So basically the way I understand people interpret fun is: “If the opponent doesn’t let me do what I want and win it’s unfun.” And while sure losing sucks, that’s a clown mindset to have… you either have to deal with a meta no matter what because that’s just how games work even at a casual level there are things that beat others (same with a “fun” tournament there are also stronger decks) or you can quit and try again in another game! Your choice 😂
when people say "fun decks" what they really want is for their own deck to be the best because it is yet another external factor that they want to cling to that they don't lose because they are bad, but because meta decks aren't fun
Dear Team APS I honestly think people are overthinking this topic KONAMY made every ARCHETYPE so it has its own unique STRAIGHTS and WEAKNESSES. 5:15 Answer RULE #1 You can only use Cards that belong to 1 ARCHETYPE (So Borreload savage, Utopia... etc are no longer considered NEUTRAL.) 5:02 Answer RULE #2 No floodgates AND no Hand Traps (The point is to PLAY YGO and not make your opponents so he is NOT PLAYING or feel limited cues its not fun its unfair. Understand ?) 5:15 Answer RULE #3. You can add NEUTRAL cards to Deck that dont belong to any OTHER ARCHETYPE. So you can use reinforcement of the army 4 example.
The point of the game is to win. Floodgates and handtraps are a part of that game. If your going to ban floodgates and handtraps, ban solemn judgment, solemn strike, etc.
@@kristopher4746 I agree 100% Any effect negation that can negate anything should be BANED, Monsters that negate effect that targets them specifically is fine by me and is balanced but cards that can negate anything your opponent trows is not fair simply by you having negate you win 90% of time so game become Luck Based you hoping to get Ashe or hoping to Draw that 1 Kaiju you have luck based games are boring effect negates got realy strong with Pendulum Meta that's when almost all of mine friends stoped playing Ygo from 7 players only me and 1 friend continued with this crazy You cant play 25 minits first turn META
Honestly, spot on. We tried to do a fun deck night a couple years ago. While there were a lot of other reasons it didn't work, a lot of it also boiled down to people just not agreeing on what makes a "fun deck." Some people played janky decks that were too low power to usually play (our locals is fairly small and most people entered the weekly tournaments which only had prizing for first, so no one wanted to pay just to get blown out of the water by better decks and not entering meant you had no one to play with), some played "competitive rogue deck minus the banned cards", and some specifically just tried to solve the format. No one really had much fun, and it left such a sour taste that it ruined any chance our locals had of attempting to run low power tournaments again. Which is slightly unfortunate because we'll still get competitive burn out and want to play our pet decks, but rarely get a solid chance to.
Fun is 100% subjective. Fun for me is seeing my opponent's face when he/she realizes I run a Steelswarm deck. Just kidding. I really like Steelswarm though and I'm building a deck for it the best way I can - which in no way means it may be somewhat competitive...
The sad part is that "tiering" the game by trying to measure more objective power levels would basically be impossible. Even if you did something like Smogon does for Pokemon battles (assuming we even had usage data to go off of): 1. It would be an iterative process, taking the low percent of competitive decks and finding the low percent in that, and so on, to make tiers 2. Given the format changes with new sets and banlists you'd have to re-establish those tiers on AT LEAST a quarterly basis
Yeah tiering would be the only real solution to keeping everyone on a similar playing field. But like you said unless you come up with some ai to more objectively measure things quickly and to reassess frequently it would a very hard system to maintain
I come from a different game, Magic: the Gathering, but the struggle of 'casual' versus 'competitive' decks among groups is very real and transcends game. To that end, a personal observation: The most fun I've ever had playing MtG in a 'tournament' style series of games was when one fellow brought The Cube. Cube Draft, for those not in the know, is a draft format where a curated collection of cards (The Cube) is shuffled and separated into 'booster packs' which the players draft from as though it were a normal draft format. Because the contents of the Cube are curated, nothing can existed in the format that isn't explicitly put into the box; since it is a draft format, the skill is in trying to make something functional out of what you draft while the fun is in playing a variety of cards that you might never normally choose to (or be able to) play with. Everyone's Cube is going to be different, and different styles of Cube exist for different types of groups - the one I played was a 'Vintage Cube', deliberately containing some of the most overpowered and often banned cards in the game but only single-copies, at once allowing the experience of playing with cards that most players *never* get to use (because they're too expensive or just banned), while at the same time challenging them to use them in creative ways depending on what they were able to draft along with them. Another friend, inspired by The Cube, had begun making their own 'Crazy Cube', consisting of the *weirdest* and most awkward janky cards in the game, cards which do useful things but in awkward or weird ways, thus demanding players think outside the box just to make things work. I don't know if YuGiOh has a viable Draft or Sealed Deck format, but perhaps something similar could be done for 'Fun Tournaments' in that regard. "This is the Box of Fun. Everyone grab a stack of 60 random cards from it and try to build the best 30 card Sealed Deck you can with what you pulled. May the odds be in your favor." or something like that, and the person curating the box keeping an eye out for what kinds of cards favor the kind of 'Fun' they want the box to generate, and what kinds of cards make it 'less fun' so they can be swapped out for other options to keep things fresh and interesting. You might get lucky and have a handtrap or two, but have to be careful when you use them. You might pull a big staple spell, but will you get it in time and is this the right time to use it? Etc etc. Just thoughts. :)
I've always had the most fun with disregarding the ban list entirely and making whatever deck came to mind or really "spoke to me," so to speak. For example, an age old favorite was my middle school/high school tactic of an "All-Around Deck," where I place a little of everything in it to cover any glaring weaknesses (some good low level but high Attack and high Defense monsters, at least one indestructible monster like Marshmallon, a few powerful high level monsters, some nice Special Summoning or removal effect monsters, and any Spells and Traps that can hinder my opponent and/or support my monsters.) Currently, I decided to make a deck based on cards that were prominent both in the Battle City arc of Yu-Gi-Oh! and in real life during that era of the card game (Dark Magician of Chaos, Chaos Emperor Dragon, Jinzo, Red-Eyes Black Dragon, etc.) And sometimes, I just like using cards that I'm sentimental towards or have some personal attachment to, regardless of how "good" or "bad" they are (Kuriboh, Black Luster Soldier, Armed Dragon, Cyber Dragon, Red Dragon Archfiend, Odd-Eyes and Performapals, Dark Magician, etc.) When it comes to the duels themselves, I'm much more fond of the back and forth between players. Even when I'm winning, I don't get the same satisfaction from dominating the other player for the entire game when compared to the tension of trying to outplay my opponent. There's an unmatched thrill in trying to surpass an actual challenge for me, instead of just winning because I had the better deck or the better opening move or whatever.
It’d be cool to have a tournament a local shops where each week they would add a different summoning mechanic. Only tribute/ritual one week, add fusion the next week and so on. I think that would be pretty fun. Or limit the card pool to different years every week.
My first really good deck was a monarchs deck. 3 structural put together with some cards that I have (in the time that I bought Pantheism, Ether and advance were limited), and is my favorite deck of all time, I love tot play with him. The fact that a tribute summon archetype can be powerful is great (and yes, I also like true draco). I have fun for playing with the deck, like the plays, the possibilities, the turn that you resolve 4 Pantheism in one turn, establish a domain lock with eruption set ripping a card of the hand with Erebus or Thestalus. Or tributing the opponent monster and non-targeting shuffle with Erebus, is great. But other people don't like, usually hate the deck, hate the lock, the one side skill drain. Sure, I can see why, but is the same as a trishula turn hand loop, or any other powerful play, but is part of the game. Playing is the fun, not what are been played, and is different for balance.
Fun for me is just about both players being able to play their decks and me personally not trying to parse a very extended combo. The best experience I've had with this in any kind of tournament setting has been with a "from scratch" setting. And even then, everyone really needs to start along similar routes towards similar decks. If one person starts triple monarch structure it'll be not fun for everyone till they can get past it. So a mix of even starting conditions and being considerate.
For me I think in general a fun deck is just playing a deck because you like the cards for instance I’ve always had and probably always use both elemental heroes and a neos deck. They both aren’t by any means meta but I love the monsters for so many reasons so that’s what I choose to use. I think the main difference between an actual deck and a fun deck is that the person needs to think to their self “am I playing this because I want to win or because I genuinely like the cards”.
I class a fun deck with a few categories. 1. No cards that desrupt the opponent mid combo. This means no hand traps Or any negates. 2. Choose a generation of summoning method to choose from, because of power creap. 3. No link monsters, these are too generic and most don't fit solely into any single deck. 4. You can use any cards as long as they fit into the above rules. You can use e hero sunrise in a gen 2 deck. Result. This takes each deck to their maximum power with limited methods to keep the deck fit for purpose. Heroic is a deck that uses powerful xyz monsters to overwhelm the oppenet with attacks, the deck is not designed to put up a board of negates and links.
To make fun decks as balanced as possible, I recommend placing limits on card effects rather than types of cards. No card draw, no more than 2 board wipes, 4 negates, 3 graveyard fetch e.g monster reborn call of the haunted. Also you could set time limits on turns if you don’t want really long combos. You could use a chess time clock for turns. That way you can get really creative making decks that are good and avoid games that are over in 2-3 turns
I’ve played in a few MTG tournaments where they hard limit the amount of rares and uncommons by putting a price limit on what the decks so you showed up gave them your deck list and show average price of your cards they do a quick verification and your in. It made players think about what power house staples they could put in each deck. Like I know they are different games but I feel like that could be a “fix” to the fun deck tournament. We did games that where 20 40 and 60 dollar decks. So that could be a great way to hold these types of games.
Late to this, but I'd like to try having a set number of moves you can do per turn and then up the limit for different "tiers". Like, try it out with an across the board, "you can only play a card, activate an effect, (special) summon 10 times per player turn and 5 during your opponent's turn" then fine tune it from there with more specific stuff. At least for "fun" decks 'cuz that gives both players some more decision making to do but also hopefully more time to play against each other as well. I'm pretty fresh into the modern scene, though, so some cards now may just spit on that idea. I know, for me, it gets very unfun in ANY game when it takes a long time to get to my turn, like a fighting game with insanely long combo-routes or block strings. Fun to execute but garbage to be on the receiving end of. I know the solution isn't always as clear cut as "just limit this stuff" because you've gotta work around how the game is designed in many instances, but that would be a good start for me, a nostalgic player getting back into it. I also agree with another video you did talking about omni-negates being a pain to deal with due to their lack of drawbacks. Maybe limiting them or banning them in favor of cards that involve more decision making than "how much of the board do you want to shut down right now? yes? OK, let's do it". It's a complex issue due to the scale of the game and cards available, but those are my two cents.
Fun for me is playing Red-Eyes Black Dragon and talking with a brooklyn accent
I read this in a Brooklyn accent! 🤣
BROOKLYN RAGEEEE
Wb Time Wizard? And Gearfried? And Jinzo?
Nyeeeh
@@annedrieck7316 BROOKLYN RAA- NYeeeehhhhh
To me, a fun deck is a deck that lets the opponent play Yugioh.
That's the inherent problem with today's hand traps. They *allow* broken combo decks to exist while simultaneously completely gating off any deck that cannot play through them from entering the metagame. They are the literal core of today's issues because if they did not exist Konami could not get away with printing some of these stupid enablers and generic omni negates.
@@PathBeyondTheDark But if you say it to the competitive community they argue that handtraps are keeping the game alive
@@PathBeyondTheDark yup. Exactly my mindset. Every card that has ever been a staple 3 of in every yugioh deck had bren either limited, or banned. Why are hand traps treated differently? When every top deck in the past 4 yrs has run 3 of every handtrap, why arent they banned? Arent they the problem card?
@@thatwackycardgame5655 the reason why most hand traps aren't banned or limited is that 1:most handtraps are meta dependent meaning their power changes depending on the top decks and 2: they give players the ability to interact with the opponent on the first turn of the duel something that had been a problem for the majority of yugiohs history.
@@PathBeyondTheDark broken combo decks exist with or without hand traps. infernity(synchro and xyz) wind-up hand loop, inzektors, dragon rulers, and more existed prior to the introduction of modern day hand traps. those decks that lose to a single ashe blossom were already being gated from entering the meta do to other decks being stronger and more consistent.
A “fun” deck in my opinion is where yugioh is interactive with multiple turns. The back and forth is what is missing in current meta. Sitting for 10-15 minutes waiting for my opponent to set up a board is not fun.
Facts.
Exactly this. It's this back and forth that makes it interesting to play and watch.
If you can set up a full board of strong monsters that negate everything (or nothing and the opponent destroys it with just 2 cards), it's not fun.
But I don't think we will ever get back to the good old times, except we re-write cards so they can't combo indefinitely
@@sharktos3218 I’m still okay if a big board can get wiped with Raigeki or something like that. Back in 5ds era it meant the player overextended. But if they would proceed to then got OTKd that’s a problem. I don’t think any of this will get solved unless they put a special summon limit in place. Which will never happen most likely.
@@alexlegrand8386 Yeah. A summon limit won't be a thing in the near future.
I think we should have something to keep big boards in check, but not with a generic spell every deck can play.
@@sharktos3218 I agree there needs to be something to balance big boards. Not a fan of them especially when it’s solitaire for 10 minutes to set up.
IMO when people say "fun decks" what they actually mean is "decks that don't do anything unfair."
"What does your deck do anyway?"
_Me, looking at my hybrid deck running a Cyber Dragon, Gadget and XYZ engine_
It plays Ties of the Brethren and loses on the next turn
Exactly!!!!!!!!! why is that so difficult to understand, I get so pissed off when ppl play generic meta cards when I just want to have fun
But that's just rephrasing the question.
What is "unfair" every deck plays something somewhat unfair, whether it be putting up negates or generating large amounts of card advantage.
This community is dead
@@IamGrimalkin Like the video said, it's difficult to define. "Unfair" is subjective. Best you can do is create a list of "banned" cards or strategies and go from there, but that won't always be so simple. I get people get annoyed by rooms with "no ASH BLOSSOM" or something like that, but at least they are being transparent rather then just saying "only fun decks."
We need a Team APS Plus podcast. Paul and one or 2 other members discuss topics like this in the greatest detail and fully expand on it. Also maybe deck building tips/ideas, how to fix cards or how to limit the overly powerful cards. I know y’all do a lot as is but that may be something worth talking about
That's pretty much what they do during their livestreams already.
Great Video
Yeah that'd be awesome. Paul has a great voice for podcasting. Would absolutely love to listen to like a more in depth, hour long segment from TeamAPS.
I'd be so into a Team APS podcast where it's like Paul and Calvin, or next week Paul and Larry, or Trell or so on and so forth. I'd watch the shit out of that.
I would like an opportunity to play gimmick decks without being steamrolled immediately. Sometimes losing is fun, but losing on turn 1 isn't fun.
Idk man I think if you lose to exodia first turn no searches the guy just happens to draw it I think you gotta give that fun!
@@jakestark2483 i wouldnt even be mad if that happened tbh
Great Video
@@mundanesalad right hahaha only situation where otk is beautiful
Yeah playing a low tier deck and getting your combos stopped on turn one with hand traps so you end your board with weak monsters sucks
I remember my locals having a fun deck tournament that worked out really well. The only constraints were: current banlist and no cards over $15. The idea with that is that if it's over $15 it's not accessible to everyone which gives that player an unfair advantage. It's a more objective rule, still makes you think of your deck choice or how to adapt a deck and some pretty cool stuff happened
Literally every deck i have XD. If a card's over 10 euro i don't bother with it.
That's very cool rule
Budget tournament
I like this.
"Trying to ban meta just creates new meta"
100 percent agree no mater what their will always be something stronger than something else it is just how the card games are made
Yup, it’s how they make money. Keeps making players buy new cards
@@JohnnyCProduction This is why I'll never truly understand why Konami bans cards outside of blatant FTKs/loops, or why people constantly whine about the ban list needing to "fix" the game. Your Deck is either going to eventually be power crept, or it'll still be perfectly fine to use.
@@gabudaichamuda2545 I think its more complicated then that, the point is to make as many decks viable as possible. If virtual world, Drytron, Dinosaur, dogmatika and especially eldlich got hit a lot more decks would see play than currently (even though to be fair this format is pretty diverse)
@@drstone428 Yeah but goat format would so much better without Delinquent Duo and BLS blowouts being a thing.
Something a locals did around my area was a tournament they called "Super Limited". Basically, they had a custom ban list that limited every card in the game to 1. It resulted it some pretty creative deck building that was fun. Dunno if that's a *great* idea, but it was certainly interesting.
that kinda sounds like trinity format, You should check it out. Its similar to what your locals did. In trinity there are still banned cards, but its not Pot of Greed Or graceful chairty. its cards like Aliester and Ultimate conductor Tyranno, singular powerful cards that don't need much support to be busted. There Is a point system involved to gain access to multiple copies of a card, or access to power cards like Pot of Greed. But in general its a bunch of 1 offs and anything goes.
Not all casual decks are created equal, especially when looking at decks that were from different eras of Yugioh, it’s best to organize individual matches between people who play decks of similar power level.
Yeah, like think of like blackwings Vs. Cloudian they both are not viable but one stands a much better chance than the other.
yes! i wish people would make decks of different difficulty level and match it with their opponent's level to play. This way no one is deprived or would be too scared to try out.
@@akabaneaki that's how my friend and I test different deck ideas.
@@jaxxskellington3929 Brilliant really. i personally don have a ygo friend to do that with so sure would be efficient to do that huh ^^
@@jaxxskellington3929 you should test your decks against the meta... thats how testing a deck works
The truth is that for many people "fun" just mean "no cards that stop my combo or break my board"
Super polymerization: Sorry my comrade I'm going in dry to break your board.
Well yeah, actually being able to play the game is what most people consider fun. Everytime I try and play Yu-Gi-Oh which is sparingly now I always get reminded why that is almost instantly because what ends up happening is either I get stunned by a single hand trap or my board gets wiped because I didn't get out a generic staple to stop it essentially making so I don't get to play the game. There's way too many hoops to jump through just to be able to actually have a satisfying turn.
@@randomusername3445 when people say they don’t get to play I don’t understand, I’ve been playing the same 3 decks for like 5-6 years since middle school adjusting to the meta adding in staples and tech choices. You’re playing yugioh in 2021 you will get hit with a handtraps it’s been that way since synchro era board wipes happen it’s part of the game. If you make a deck that loses to handtraps and all the other cards that keep getting reprinted for the masses I don’t think it’s the games fault
Facts Username. Not being able to play is the worst. Butt load of negates, hand traps, board wipes..... you can piss off with that. A fun game is playing your turn and seeing your opponent play their turn with tons of back and forth. That’s why I play duel links. So long as I avoid the top of the top decks I have freedom on what deck to use and gave genuine fun.
@@rd9669 it is though because card games do that on purpose so you buy the new cards, it's like powerscaling without out the power just the scaling, for example, why would use drill synchron when you can use quickdraw and a level one, you get to special summon and normal summon easily and you sent something to the graveyard without you opponent interfering, it's less about being forced to buy new cards and your own want to stay at the top that makes you buy new cards to keep up, somepeople don't care about competitive anything, you think people that jog are trying to get into the olympics no it's just fun so when other people kill that fun by racing the casual jogger while they themselves are training for the olympics there is no doubt that the olympic runner is gonna win
Instead of saying “only fun decks” try “only theme decks”. You wanna play B. Savage Dragon? Play a full theme Rokket deck. Ash Blossom? Zombie deck.
All fun and games till the Mekk Knight player is running 3 gamma and Ogre
I can get behind this, I only play casually with a couple of mates, but all of us try and keep our decks "pure" to the theme. One of my mates got furious when he saw I used Impcantation cards together with my Megaliths
@@Daman3tm Some people don't want to win and that's fine but if it's a good deck then I think it's really cool if you can get lots of different cards to work togther. It's one of the best things about this game is how creative you can be we have aprox. 11,400 cards and we can use any combination of them to construct a deck this is crazy with no limits except the ban/limit list of course. But really people that feel that limits on deck construction need to be added can play some other less free game like magic or vanguard. These games require you to play either lands or clans which will corospond to a deck type. Yu-Gi-Oh! is great because of the choice and it's crazy what you can make :)
Just because you want to have fun doesn't mean you have to play theme but hand it to you it is a good way to stop people exploting generic cards
Ash Blossom can ghost girls deck. You can only play ghost girls and zombie girls lol.
To me, a "fun" deck Is something that let's you do big powerful fun things, without disrupting your opponents game too much.
Yeah same thing
Yeah.....Actually playing the game and not negating every single move you do or try to do.....
Back when I played my brother I used to love battling my simorgh boss against his ancient gear boss in an epic battle. Now it's " I gonna do everything in my power to make sure that when your turn starts i can negate anything you do".
And what decks do powerful things that dont disrupt the opponent? i feel like this is an impossible situation
@@mitman321 blue eyes
I can't even play my "fun" Nordic or Valkyries decks at locals nowadays because the power level of those decks are much weaker when compared to other "fun" decks that may be more consistent or powerful. Not every deck is created equal. Just play with friends.
Exactly! Nordics need the "anime" effects instead of the TCG effect...Like that Nordic Ascendant Valkyrie that you need to banish 2 Nordic Monsters to summon 2 tokens in TCG but in anime you banish ANY 2 cards from your hand? That is much better and not specific
Yeah Nordics & Valkyries need some new support I'd like to see them get some kind of Sacred Beasts treatment.
You can play at locals just don’t play in the tournament where stuff is on the line. I have multiple decks some top tier and some fun. My dark magician deck is for fun and I like playing with it. I win some field sometimes but it’s not top tier meta.
I get flamed every time I play ghostricks but they are so fun
I play my cloudian and I play my Aeromages deck all the time
Fun-Decks are Decks with a non-competetive background. They are not designed to set up unbreakable Boards, FTK'S or OTK's.
They also do not keep either player from playing the Game by using to much Floodgates. They are designed to possibly win and maybe doing cool stuff. It's like you are trying to make bad Cards work or build a Deck to resemble an Anime Character from the Show etc. The important thing here is, that both Players enjoy the Game and do not care much about the outcome of the Duel.
My Playgroup for example likes to build Decks of Anime Characters and look if it is possible to Win against an Opponent they haven't dueled in the Show. Like Weevil Vs Marik, Zane Vs Shark or A.I. Vs Kaiba. Sometimes we make Challenges like: Use Cards with Coin flips or Lv 5. an 6 Normal Monsters. If winning isn't important to you and you are not keeping others from playing the Game, then you've made a Fun-Deck.
Exactly!
It should't be that hard to figure out. Check which decks are the top tiers, limit the most OP cards they use, or ban the ones they give them crazy consistency, and boom. More Balanced game.
I agree knowing the outcome of a game because the opponent plays Deck X with x negates x Boss Monsters in turn 1 in XX minutes makes the game pointless and theres no interaction like when playing with friends or requesting a nun competitive approach
For me, fun decks are the ones that create entertaining moments for the people playing. I played a Malefic deck against my friends and the look on their faces when I'm slapping down multiple 4000atk monsters on turn 1 is pretty funny. What's even more hilarious is how a single feather duster would literally wipe it all away.
Wait they are playable by themselves?
@@omega5040 They're only playable as long as there's a field spell on the board. Also you can only have one unless you play Malefic Territory which lets you have multiple as long as they have different names.
@@Asparagaceae how do you play them? Necrovalley?
My personal favorite is Mound of the Bound Creator. Necrovalley, Summon Breaker, and Future Visions and also great options.
Oh and Mystic Mine if you're feeling like removing the "fun."
@@Asparagaceae I see what you did there, sir...AND I LIKE IT
I feel like Konami kind of needs to stop printing new archetypes for a while and just focus on legacy support or even just archetypes that just fell flat
Ikr. There are so many archetypes that feel redundant in theme, especially warrior ones
Thank you because I'm trying to play constellers and then I realized that my archetype sucks and they get steamrolled.
@@pancakes7483 you deserve it for using Constellars
@@557deadpool I try my hardest to make the deck work man but the deck can only do so much
I agree with you dude , also most old archetypes have got better art design than new 'unbalanced' archetypes they need 4 example to release new support cards for harpies and red eyes dragons they are so weak till now , i dont know why old main characters decks are not supported with new cards 🤔
To me fun deck is a deck that doesn't focus on not letting your opponent do anything.
Facts.
I'm ok with even negates. I just HATE omni negates without cost.
I really like the naturias and glad beast heraklinos.
Wrong control decks are fun to me.
Fun is subjective.
I like playing through negates and setting up negates. But outright prevention of mechanics (Shock Master, All Calamities, Secret Village) is where I would draw the line of "Yeah, this isn't fun to play or play against." I will play them if I can play them because my playgroup is more competitive and everybody runs hand traps and tries to make their decks as meta as possible. But if it fun? No. Do they call me a hypocrite for playing those cards when they lose to it? Yes. Ironically enough...
@@phoenix578 They are fun to play but terrible to play against. Imo for a deck to be considered a (fun) deck, it needs to be both fun to play yourself and fun to play against so a negate deck isn't a fun deck.
Custom banlist tournaments do sound like a fun idea, just don't advertise it as a "fun deck tournament"
It's true that there's always going to be something that's overall better than others, but if you make the list restrictive enough, whatever ends up being the best could very well be something that would otherwise be considered jank.
Decks that are more strictly pure seem to be more “fun” in a sense of having more interactive game play instead of a game of negates and OTK.
Except cyber dragon otk! I just can’t get over loosing to a machine
@@jakestark2483 calling it a machine is even more fitting as its moves are similar to a well oiled machine
Dinos, Heros, Cyber Dragons etc are played mostly pure, yet they can still do both of those things. (But I guess Dinos would be considered meta)
Great Video
@@jakestark2483 maju deck laughs in mystic mine XD
We really nee some good official alternate formats, i think that would help a lot and it's really annoying they almost had it done with speed duels but completely f'ed it up requiring buying 20Yr old cards etc
dude will it make konami money if no then they will not do it simple as goats has a bit of a following but it would need to have turnoment support form something like ARG to get off the ground
to be honest i dont like speed duel and heres why: Yugioh to some people has the problem that theres to much going on in 1 turn. In order to kinda fix this konami decided to restrict your plays by reducing the field. However that isnt even the core of the problem. The problem with the complaint people have results out of no restrictions for the amount of special summons each turn. It currently worked in duel links but only because they arent even into the link mechanic yet. We already saw an increase of playtime per turn in duel links with the new sets they get. As soon as they receive link monsters aswell this playtime will go up even more leading to the same problem with the game some people have right now in standard. The new restrictions in this format arent really gamechanging, its missleading because you play with older cards, thats what changes the game pace.
@@josepharmstrong6852 I feel that are correct that Konami thinks like that but its short sided on their part.
Having even a second format would create buzz for new cards in new boxes that would be filler otherwise. It also creates a much needed entry point and net for people coming into or leaving the first format. You increase your user base, you increase your sales, you get money, money is an object that can be exchanged for goods and services.
Honestly they have the tools to create different formats at hand. Konami, if they are lazy dicks, could just make each special creature summon a format. So a synchro format, xyzs, fusion, ect. That would at least breath life into old decktypes and avoid the inevitable loss of players when a new gimmick changes the game.
I personally would like something like mtgs pulper where you can only play common or uncommons that are mass printed and therfore "cheap". That would be a great way to people unwilling to pay for a meta deck at meta prices.
@@notaraven They need to make a cool show that's bad ass and bit edgy and cool and apeal to 12-16 years old this should be there aim. And have the show explain complex things like how different cards work would be nice but speed duels where the attempt. The key is the show for sure
To me, a fun deck is a deck that wants to achieve its goal without extreme amounts of out-of-archetype extenders to achieve the goal.
so dragon link is a fun deck?
@@mitman321 pure rokket or pure dragunity. please don’t troll, you confuse people
@@mitman321 YES
For me, my fun decks are more along the lines of using mostly cards of the archetype and seeing if I can pull off a win here and there. For instance, I have a Rokket Deck that using mostly Rokket and Topologic stuff. There are no hand traps and no super strong traps. Just alot of old school stuff that I like (mirror force, D Prison, etc.) I use whatever links I want, but felt the guardragon package was too strong.
Mirror force is an extremely op card 😂😂 we’ve all walked into one a couple of times in 2005
@@jakestark2483 I cant tell you how many Ls I took for that one.
Great Video
oh other then imperal oder i play more for a citan feild spell my rokket i muck pefur the grind and using powerful links to destory the oppent
I agree. This is why when i build decks, i try to make them as many archetype specific cards as possible and then put maybe a couple of generic cards (like allure of darkness in raidraptors, for example).
The only thing that enforces fun is interaction. Equal interaction where both players get to do what they need to win.
And where card economy and advantage are what you need to keep in mind to have a chance at winning or outresourcing your opponent. Banning doesnt do shit if interactive play isnt enforced
Even if you remove all generic card like VFD etc. A lot of "fun" decks can still end on powerful boards that can't be outed easily without staples. Like for example if Heroes make Dark Law and a set Mask Change etc, a lot of meta decks let alone casual decks can't reliably out that without staples. Then if you give people staples you have situations where both decks lose to one Gamma or whatever so it becomes whoever opens the put wins or sometimes both players in a top deck war.
Dark hole and raigeki are pretty cheap and out that card easily. Staples are differenr for each format
@@jangaman7823 but they're staples that's the issue.
@@finnianfanning3136 there's a difference between powerful and overpowered.
Yes that board is strong,
But it's no dragoon + savage dragon.
For your example there's a bunch of 1-card ways to out half the board,
For the second one only super-poly can out it without requiring multiple handtraps or floodgates.
@@BramLastname dark ruler or droplets, then kill with borrelsword, accesscode, etc
@@Paradox-ih7rp I know,
Consistent and Unbreakable do not go together,
But you probably agree that there's a different power level for different end boards.
I picked something that's relatively easy to get to,
But I know there's quite a few things to counter it.
I feel like you would almost want to make a fun tournament based on eras.
That would be perfect for this. Have like a tournament based on any archetype that came out during the original Duel Monsters story or one featuring only GX archetypes
This even was an official tournament: A Cross-Banlist where the banlists avaliable were based on the Eras of the Game (DM - ARC-V, not receiving official updates since). Top 4 would win a playmat based on the Era they played. It's called "Generation Duel Tournament".
My favourite banlist from this tournament is the DM one. It lets you play the broken stuff (Yata-Lock, Pog of Greed an other DM staples, etc. Everything pre-Errata), but in exchange you can't use any effect monster not quoted in that list, or even Ritual/Extra Deck monsters (That's the only part I don't actually like, because it would be nice to have more modern archetype support). It lets you play Gandora, the Magician Girls and the Silents, and I think that's neat.
Fun to me is everything. I like everything thrown at me. I don't care if the entire tournament is Drytron and Virtual World (at this moment for example.) It just makes it that much sweeter when I win, so I am never one to complain about how decks are broken or too powerful. They can be beat with skill and cunning deck choices for that particular event. Tonight at my locals, Madolche was running the tables and plowed through Virtual World and Drytron (at those two players were quite good.) The Madolche player knew his deck well and had some spicy tech. This is "fun" to me and how I wish more people would play. Just play the deck you like the most, make it as competitive as you can, and start slinging the cardboard.
Same. My favorite matchups are against vw and drytron. The win is just so much better when I play through chuche, vfd rather than infinity pass. I don't personally play meta just because I don't like the idea of having to spend a ton and just throw the deck out later. I play dragunity and I love facing those decks. I love when I get handtrapped because it forces me to think of alternative routes and not just play the same ten minute combo every time.
Maybe a for-fun tournament could be something like, "Here is the list of allowable cards," or maybe, "Hey it's Robots week," so you get to see what people do with whatever theme is chosen.
I think when we use "fun" in YuGiOh terms, can be used for those decks that we have used in the older days. Decks that have had simple game plans. Pretty much "caveman" YuGiOh. Of course, there are plenty of players that probably never played those types of decks or those types of rules before and probably would never consider trying the old ways out. But it is as you said, fun is extremely subjective and trying to narrow down what is a fun deck is hard. Like I enjoy playing Blue-Eyes, Ancient Gears, and Blackwings. Those I can consider as fun decks because of their simple play and not exactly trying to build unbreakable boards, even though they have the capability in doing so.
So all in all, I think the simple decks that isn't trying to do the "break my board" strategy is in line with fun decks. I mean, we may make fun of this deck, but I can consider War Rocks in that line.
Tbh, I feel like the answers I hear to what makes a "fun" deck are pretty common and not too hard to put together; limited special summons per turn, limited negations per turn, ban certain hand traps, ban certain staples (ex. Dragoon), ban omni-negates (ex. VFD, Utopic Zexal) and ban certain big floodgates (ex. Mystic Mine, Vanitys). Certainly, a "meta" would still form under this, but I think some people would still prefer that type of slower, limited meta over the general one. Hopefully I'm not just putting words in other people's mouths though; I personally don't think I would play under this myself and would much rather trick a deck out with as much as I can, nor am I saying this would necessarily work, but this is what I've generally heard from my time in the community.
It’s really interesting coming from a magic background, our “for fun” format EDH has a lot of the same grievances you talk about here! People have tried for years to put a number on “fun”, biggest thing I’ve come away with? Theme decks are the most fun! You want a dragon deck, cool that’s sweet. You want everything in the deck to be odd mana? Cool!
Magic is generally not fun regardless
Having a ‘fun’ format is literally impossible to keep in check. Regardless of how many ‘fun’ decks there are. There will always be a card or deck that will be the ‘best’ or ‘least fun’.
Agreed. I think it’s more about closing the gap between “fun and playable decks” and what we have now which is borderline a coin toss to see who goes first and makes an unbreakable board. Getting beat by better cards is one thing but at least let me interact
I think the major problem with a "fun" deck tournament is that you can't define fun for anyone. I'd say a tier system would be easier to implement with people opting into tiers that their archetypes would fit into on a list of archetypes and cards. It could be similar to how the pokemon games split up their competitive tournaments online in Smogon. In case someone reading this is unfamiliar, smogon singles in pokemon are tiered by use percentages. The best pokemon are used a lot and so they fit into Over Used, then you got down the tiers based on how often they see use all the way down to untiered and PU. I imagine something like this could work for non-konami held tournaments since that would generally put some equality on the tiers. I'd definitely also say that each tier would need a small banlist of limited and semi-limited to sort of chokehold people who might think of intentionally building a "bad" deck with meta cards in order to take advantage of the lower power level of the lower tiers.
That would be interesting, there's already a tier system somewhat in place, it doesn't affect gameplay but it does categorize by power level, maybe keep extending it down through 12-15 instead of ending at 2, and then have a community like Smogon running the different formats.
@@king_acceler8755 I feel like that would help a lot in making the game more approachable from a tournament perspective.
I think these "fun deck" tournaments reminds me of a skit Team APS did where Calvin is typing out rules and saying things like "no hand traps, no meta, no Xyz, etc.". The idea of a "fun deck tournament" is fundamentally flawed since some people take fun in different aspects. Some people like having fun defeating opponents in one turn because it shows that they know how ratios work, while some like the back and forth in a duel. It's sketchy overall, even if there are custom banlists to limit what kinds of decks can exists.
My fun deck is Buster Blader, especially in a tag duel when my partner is playing Blue-Eyes or Red-Eyes.
I feel like a "fun" deck in YuGiOh is a deck that has the ability to pull off good, not too long combos that don't interfere with the opponent's field and allows both players to use their decks to its fullest extent with little interruptions throughout the duel.
so little interruption is how much interruption? not too long combos, how long is too long?
@@petergregory7177 ok if i set 2 judgement and 2 warning, will u keep having fun?
@@petergregory7177 isn't that the same as herald with 4 fairies in hand
I don't get this argument, why are you playing a 2 player card-game if you don't want any interaction between players, you might as well just play alone.
@@Skelliiie are u also replying to the pepega comments saw u in a couple
I would think the problem just lies in the metagame since 2020, there is a giant frickin' chasm in powercreep, and support for older decks is often times just not enough or overbalanced. like time thiefs
Day 300 of waiting for Vendread support
I was actually at this tournament! I think many of us had the same complaints and arguments made in this video. As someone already said, “not all casual decks are created equal.” But all in all it was a fun tourney.
Custom banlists and "fun tournaments" are fundamentally flawed because something else will always be broken compared to everything else. It's way too subjective and is full of just bias. The part I find most fun about Yugioh is ending on a big boss that sits there (Arrival Cyberse @ Ignister) or shutting my opponent down completely (Necrovalley), or even just a combo toolbox (Ignisters/Fortune Ladies), and I know other players despise at least one of those. It's just impossible to please everyone, so Konami just tries to keep it as relatively balanced as possible.
But necrovalley only in grravekeepers, and not just as a floodgate
@@darkpaladin18 true, I should’ve clarified that lol
I wanna play the game without watching my opponent read his cards for 20 mins on turn one
if its taking them that long, call a judge for slowplay
The most fun deck design I did was back in the 5Ds era; it was based on cards that switched battle positions regularly, either as a trigger (Stumbling), timer (Labyrinth of Nightmare), or reaction (Zero Gravity), and cards with effects that took advantage of position switching (Blade Rabbit) or that tried to use position switching as a disadvantage (Goblin Attack Force et. al.). It was a supremely frustrating deck to play against, but it would force my more competitively minded friends to find workarounds or play disadvantaged moves on purpose, so as to "trick" the deck to their true movements. Even caused a small debate on whether Zero Gravity or No Entry could be used to disrupt battle destruction effects reliant on Attack Position monsters.
you seem to be confused with "what deck is fun" and "do some players only have fun winning" the problem with asking what is "fun" is that its like asking "how long is a piece of string" the problem you are running in to is that in yugioh theres a ton of sweatlords who would abuse any rule or exception to a rule to win because their step dad always made fun of them for playing this game.
That last part is oddly specific
@@heatsflamesman5353 Wait, I thought all yugioh players got made fun of by their step dad.
I have always wanted the yugioh community to have a 'Smogon style' tier system so that weaker decks could have a place to shine. This video highlights all of the problems such a tier list would bring. I still think it would work, but it would have to be included in some kind of simulator so people don't have to remember which of the 100 staples are legal at any given tier.
Well we do with things like Shit Forma- I mean GOAT Format
I miss when several decks legitimately stood a chance. There was always a good 2-3 decks that were the best, but the gap used to be so much smaller. It never sounded crazy to hear that Heroes or 6 Samurai beat Inzektors or chaos dragons. Now if you don't run a specific 2-3 decks it's over for you
thats right - the gap between the top tier and the rest is waay to big! especially for a game with so many possibilities to create a working deck...
Everyone has their own definition. Some people prefer longer games. Some people prefer gimmicks. Some people prefer fast OTKs. Some just prefer cool artwork/lore/anime cards.
And your opinion is what ? that this is fine ok what ???
True for real. Fun is subjective. Some play to win (tournaments) some just like cool art as you said
@@josepharmstrong6852 Fun is subjective is his point, some people will like different things, and it's hard to create compromises that will please every single player.
@@toadallynoodle5414 he could have just said that 😂
This is a difficult subject to talk about,but it's important to discuss this,because if want the game to continue we should adress these concerns.There is no single answer,but thanks for having the conversation!
In my opinion,decks that do unique combos while mainting player interaction are what help to create a fun duel.
Be honest APS the fun hasn’t been there since the playground days acting out the Tv episodes and sending your arch nemesis to the shadow realm til lunch
This comment is so true hahaha
Being able to play the game without saying you can't because of a coinflip.
I’d have to say fun decks are ones that
1. Don’t focus on winning in the first 2 turns
2. Don’t literally prevent your opener from doing anything.
3. Allow for good back and forth and late game recovery.
4. Can have a decent win/loss ratio instead of “wins 90% of the time or 0% of the time”
So to some the video up: Casuality and "F-U-N" are defined by competitiveness through distinction, yet still defined by it; so excluding it makes no real sense outside of oneselves understanding/perspective
When i think of a "fun" deck, i think of archetype based decks or building decks based off anime/manga characters. Like you only use cards directly linked to your archetype or character of choice.
Ima keep it 100 when people say anime only theme deck i wanna barf i feel like its because they got no skill to build a deck that does something and it don't even got to be meta but i be going off
@@AMV_KINGDOM_mv I build character decks because I enjoyed the anime growing up. I still have competitive decks as well, I dont see how that is a measure of skill level
The president of the Yugioh club at my school decided we were going to do a “casual” tournament fall of 2018, and it was obvious we were playing with his definitions of casual. 1st he said no hand traps, then decided to limit the hand trap ban to the ghost girls and Veiler. I questioned why evenly wasn’t considered and he argued it’s not a hand trap, despite it literally being a trap you can activate from the hand. Then I asked I could play crow. His response was, “Is crow a ghost girl or veiler?” But then when he realized he forgot to list gamma in the rules, he just added it. I regret not responding to that announcement with, “is gamma a ghost girl or Veiler?” Then it got ridiculous. My friend wanted to play invoked ritual bls, and wasn’t allowed to because he was told the invoked engine made it meta 🤔. He was allowed to play danger dark world, which while still not meta, is a far better deck than invoked bls. This President also told me earlier that year that ash blossom made my dark magician deck meta while he was playing fluffals but demanded that he didn’t have to use mr4.
Sounds like he wants a casual experience for himself lol, not allowing invoked in 2018 thats fine but danger? lol
trash president lol
Fun is actually playing the game and not negating every single thing you or your opponent try or do...Just let each other play their cards out
Amen. Fun of course is subjective. But I also prefer to play the game AND let my opponent play the game. All this negates just hurt this game. Doesnt matter if its in the form of Apollousa, Handtraps, Mystic Mine or "insert other cardname here", it just sucks to do nothing.
While I hear this let me play devils advocate. So I'll let my opponent play but what if they just top deck a staple that kills me (evenly matched etc) have they really "beat" me? See what I mean?
@@luxray4911 Better yet, what if they build a board your deck can't break? You can't remove interaction and call that "fun"
@@thehippieboy6927 I am not calling that fun not at all. I agree to an extent. Personally fun for me is playing decks at similar scaling (even meta) like in meta sure they boards are ridiculous but other meta decks can break them so it makes a whole mind game and interactive games regardless. Same with rogue decks facing each other. See what I mean?
@@luxray4911 Definitely! I just think this game has a lot of gray areas where fun/low-tier decks are concerned. Some would say anything that's not meta or rogue is considered "fun," but then you've got decks like Gravekeepers suddenly becoming competitively viable. It's like people want combo decks but not TOO many combos, or they want control decks but not TOO much control. Idk where the balance is
IMO a fun deck idea for a tournament would be to hold a Tourney where the banlist doesn't exist, just take the banned cards and limit them to one in most cases.
I'm sure it would be wild. Sounds fun to me though im sure it has its issues.
Honestly, I don't see a major issue with "fun decks". My friends and I love using joke/gimmick decks in Project Ignis for a laugh.
...Now making a "fun deck only" in person tourney? Yeah, that's a little strange. Also, not a fan of the people who go to Yu-Gi-Oh! tourneys, lose and reply with, "well, I only lost because I'm playing with my fun deck". Like, if you aren't there to play competitively, what were you realistically expecting?
Facts
I see the point you're making and I agree, "fun deck" is too ill defined.
What is a fun deck? Everyone has their own definition of a "fun" deck.
I think its fine to go to a tourney with a weird deck that isnt meta or has problems, like if someone had like an ojama deck or something, like i would say odds are they arent placing well, but might have some fun, i mean admitedly yeah they should go in expecting to lose and i mean at the point they dont even need to say "i only lost because im playing with my fun deck" because well its ojamas you know?
I think its probably a waste of time to make fun decks in "tourney/ meta competition" but personally im not a huge fan of competition/tournament scene and think its more fun to just mess around then to google "what is the meta" and get all of your staple cards and try to make a deck/ shell out some money for the new hotness...then again i just am more of a casual anyway lol, and i understand for some people its fun to make competitive/meta decks and be the very best but i find that kinda boring, and i feel in most scenarios many people will probably be running very similar decks.... also it seems like "people summon a bunch of monsters in one turn" and try to ftk or set up a board that has lots of crazy shit on there and negates and just seems a bit over the top.
admitedly i mostly never "played yugioh" i got in to yugioh on the original duel monsters and whenever i played it was on the different games, and most of them werent even really yugioh, like duelist of the roses or falsebound kingdom.... The most recent i have "actually played yugioh the way its mean to be played was when i got the legacy of the duelist game, as well as messing around in duel links....
Admitedly after writing all of this i guess im kinda agreeing with you, but i wonder how much of the community of yugioh is "casual" it seems like a lot of fans of yugioh are "hardcore" and focus on the meta and spend a lot of money on cards and all that stuff ya know.... it just seems a bit meh to me but thats all up to personal taste i guess.
EDIT: I think what i would like would be certain formats like as an example "cant use any cards after gx" or something like that, just different formats would be fun and different rules would be kinda fun.
@@JuwanBuchanan yeah, I recognize that with my second comment. It's like, what's fun for one player isn't universal, it varies player to player.
A realy fun yugioh game for me is one that has interruptions/interactions sprinkled throughout, as opposed to the games where every single thing gets negated
I miss the days when in like MR3 my friend and I would go back and forth with quite a lot of decks, mainly him playing Six Sam and me Blackwings. That was fun imo. Now I find myself having my opponent combo off like crazy to make a board that negates everything I do, hand trap me, or rarely stall. I'm enjoying playing Rose Dragons but it's not like my deck's designed to ftk or anything, I just like how it plays and interacts. Often though in more competitive yugioh I see a lot less interaction.
I think you could make a point system that you can then build decks with certain point restrictions. No 5 point cards or make a deck with 50 points max
If you made a digital game you could easily use the massive block of data captured from these game to determine the points for the distribution which you want. Like saying I want all level seven cards to see roughly equal use.
Problem is that this doesn't make money.
@@josephcourtright8071 I think in paper just set every staple to 5 point tier and everything else to one point. Run a locals to make decks without any staples for a month and see what deck lists pop up. Anything that forms new staples populates the 4 point tier. Repeat for the 3 and 2 point tiers. Then just hold tournaments with different sub rules and if any card sees overwhelming usage try and promote it a tier. Eventually you'll have more formats and uses for cards that no one ever plays in competitive. Publish lists on some forums of the tiers and maybe other locals hold some tournaments. Eventually konami can take notice and support it. Konami already kinda does it with the ban list but doesn't tier legal cards to have more formats.
The only thing that should matter in an explicitly “fun” format is each participant is aware and considerate of their opponents’ enjoyment.
Obviously, you can’t balance a “fun deck” exclusive tournament with a ban/limit list.
However, as participants in an explicitly “fun” game/tournament/event, you implicitly agree to; play in a manner which encourages your opponent to participate and allows them opportunities to do so.
And there is a chance that a Player can achieve a comeback victory or the outcome is really narrow
Fun for me is playing a heavy theme deck or “pure” deck that has some out of archetype cards to help the deck but outshine what the theme is. Also a deck that isn’t too polarizing too the point where the opponent legitimately can’t do anything against it
The subject of fun and hand traps is also quite subjective because it’s not fun just trying to play your deck and something gets ashed and now your turn is basically over depending on your deck and that definitely isn’t fun, on the other side of the fence tho it isn’t fun to go against this big combo that locks you down or at least makes a really strong board and you have to just take it without the assistance of a hand trap
Sooooo yeah that’s a real tricky subject
A “fun” gameplay experience to me is a place where there is a level of interactivity. Both players should at least both start a turn with a feeling where they could win. If you stare down a VFD, Vanity’s Ruler, floodgates or 6+ negate boards that just stun you out even if you opened your best hand possible, that isn’t fun to me. I also believe that game enders like Borrelsword and Accesscode are much more fair since you can stop the monster itself or stop your opponent before they make it.
do you like control formats? Like let's say this format but without vw and drytrons.
@@eleonarcrimson858 yes I think control formats are great. Lots of interactivity and strategic plays. You trying to time your disruption correctly while your opponent tries to get you to make a mistake is probably my favourite kind of playstyle
@@antondolhain369 so do you have fun playing against eldich or dogmatika? or if u play duel links invoked?
@@eleonarcrimson858 if you play a deck on a similar power level then I like those match-ups more than playing against dragon link last format
@@antondolhain369 different strokes for different people I guess. Because I really hate set 5 and pass. lol
My definition of fun decks are any decks that don't require much thinking when playing the decks. For me, something like Gren Maju is pretty linear enough to know what the strategies are
I do the same with Guru control pure
I agree with you very much. Depending on the pilot of a deck too remember when Jeff Jones won a ycs with earth phychics. That could have been concidered by some people to be rouge or fun. I feel this also can change with the meta season as well.
I think that “fun decks” have to allow for the game to not be set in stone by turns 4-6. What I mean by that is that a fun duel should constitute a back and forth, without being in situations so early on where you’re having everything negated or locked out (I clarify early turn because the opponent should be able to devise a counter strategy with their hands to work around whatever has been set up. That is why I don’t necessarily believe that cards like RoW and Gozen Match are that bad. They put certain conditions up, but don’t put you on a turn two Omni-negate like Borreload S. and Dragoon. I use almost entirely “casual” decks, with things like Koa’ki Meirus and Steelswarms. Duels with friends often go like 20 turns, and setting monsters face down actually becomes a mind game. I wish that newer and current Yugioh players could experience the thrill of that, and step away from associating “fun” with destroying your opponent turn 1.
As a combo player I enjoy seeing cool big monsters being flung around the field, for me it's like seeing the fantasy of that first episode of YGO, where Kaiba cheats out 3 Blue Eyes, being done legally within the constraints of the game. What I don't like about combo decks is when they can put out too many negates. For instance, one of my favorite combo decks, Photon, can't always access their big negate monsters. I like being able to put out Titanic and Photon Lord, but that's only two negates and takes either a good hand, no interruption, or both. And I feel that's fair. I think Drytron is a cool archetype, my problem with it is the abuse of non-opt effects that causes the deck to go in to really dumb boss monsters. I don't think Perfect or Ultimateness should exist, omni's should either be one per chain, once per turn, or be Appo since you can bait out one negate and then kill her and combo off despite the investment. Also ban all the floodgates. All of them. If an effect shuts your opponent out of any mechanic for even a full turn, ban it.
Fun in yugioh used to be when you would see a variety of different decks and play against them not just the same old shit that you just played 30 times the exact same way with all the same cards because they got the card list off RUclips 😤
I'm not an expert on game design or anything, but personally, I think the core of a fun duel for me is two decks that are consistent and have lots of recovery, but they *don't* have much disruption. I find this usually means that both decks can do what they want to, neither deck can swing for too much damage at once, and can actually come back after a bad interaction. I usually find this results in back-and-forth games that actually go past turn 3. Now, that said, I am a mega casual player, like I play Elemental Hero Shining Flare Wingman turbo and most of my friends play largely directionless, anime inspired decks and largely unaltered structure decks. So no, I'm not exactly good at this game, but I have fun.
The term "Fun" is a bit too generic for what people are trying to describe as non-meta or non-competitive decks.
Locals should consider possible themed deck tournaments or card limits. How about anime style where you're only allowed 1 of each card in a deck? (forbidden list still in force of course)
Damn this would be heat. I wonder how it would work if a tournament tried almost like a football pool style. Where you sign your name in a random box, and then archetypes/attributes/types/win conditions could be thrown in the rows and columns.
I only play 1 card of each with 60 cards. The only multiples I use is 3 vanilla blue eyes, and 2 poly.
I'm someone who's always advocating for "fun" decks, and this was a very insightful take. Personally I think a big idea behind the "fun decks" tournaments is to change up the metagame, it will not make so there are no meta decks, but will make so the new meta is far less powerful, and far different, from the older one. Compare trying to duel against VW/Drytron vs something like Infernoble, as an example.
In your own Discord (Team APS Community's Discord) there was a 3v3 tournament with a custom banlist, that was the only tournament I've participated and the sheer variety there was so refreshing - Besides 3 hero players and 2 zombies all other decks were completely different from the last one. I even heard someone went with cardians.
It's true that some "fun" decks will be stronger than others, but that doesn't change that they are going to be different from the meta if applied correctly. I would say the best way is to have whoever is organizing the tournament form an extra banlist to ensure what would be considered "fun", having all else be fair game.
“Fun” decks to friends and I are decks that don’t pay much attention to the ban list.
*I play pot of greed!*
Hey, isn't that banned?
*Not in this house it isn't*
Bruh...
Great Video
@@guzziefuzziewuzzie This was literally my one buddy. He played by house rules, lol.
Fun decks between my friends are only possible in free-for-all multiplayer format. That way you introduce so many elements that top tier decks ended up getting ganged up on. But we usually play theme and older school decks (Chaos Control); it usually works out. We haven't played much after Pendulum was introduced.
I’ve had a lot of thought about this myself. And I’m going to keep thinking about it because the game needs resolution in this matter. The problem with having such a vast, immediate-access common knowledge of the games competitive structure, is that the game is turning into a “who can memorize and exploit the most statistically probable to succeed deck first”. With each new release, the cards are vastly studied and probed for their compatibility with existing game mechanics, almost to the point it stresses people out because, as it’s been mentioned in other videos, if you don’t build that newest hottest deck (that hundreds of other people are building card-for-card) by the time the next release happens in a few weeks or months, it’s no longer of much if any value, as it’s been inherently outmatched.
This matters in a deep way because it’s taking the players creativity out of the game. Why should I sort my 2,000+ card collection and piece together my own options for my own specific, interesting deck, when I know there’s a few specific decks that cannot be outmatched per tournaments (a.k.a. The place where we can all have the chance to gather and enjoy the game with more people than just ourselves and our 1 or 2 hometown friends)?
It’s just a big problem; there does need to exist a “fun decks” mode, it isn’t optional for the survival of the game. Everyone is going to get burnt out being so over-studied on their certainty of the cards they must play. What excited us as kids with this game was knowing that the options were endless, that we could build our own signature deck and have our own identity in the game after the hard work of piecing different cards together into a well made deck. We weren’t strapped into one specific game board layout, the options could shift and change. Now, signature decks do not matter at all, and it’s honestly nearly turned the game into a matter of rng/luck. Whoever draws the best combo-inducing card first wins. “Woop de doo”, but nothing special actually happened, it’s just that the same combo that’s been played a million times upon release due to the underlying competitive nature of the game, resulting in a victory. But the victories don’t mean much if the gameplay isn’t diverse and interesting. That isn’t to say that those circumstances aren’t appropriate at tournament level, there’s nothing at all wrong with the more serious side of the game. But there’s thousands of cards that never see any play at all due to this, and the games capabilities need to be able to reach far beyond the tournament room, to peoples living room tables, where it can be made exciting and explorable. If the whole games reach continues on this path towards “have a tournament worthy deck or else you’re wasting your time on the table”, it’s going to fade away and sadly become the subject of boredom for most people. I hate to say that but it’s happening, and needs addressed.
Sorry for the rant, I know this is lengthy, and like I said I have some ideas, but it’s going to take a collective work from the community to make this happen. A lot of people play old formats of the game to keep it “fun”. This is fine, but it’s a little in the taboo area as it can cause us to get confused about updated game rules and dynamics. It’s not the solution, anyways. There’s needs to be a consistently up-to-date-with-meta gameplay version of Yu-Gi-Oh that creates a quality, creative, casual gameplay, for the good of everyone playing this game, noob to pro.
I love rogue decks. I try to bring a different deck to locals weekly. Downside of that is that my locals is very meta filled and it's hard to have fun sometimes. Idk if maybe an agreement to limit hand traps to one copy each would help. An idea I had was a draft like banlist where let's say 10 people sign up, we each ban one card that week in addition to the normal list. It would boil down as you said to people finding the best deck in that case but I think that's unavoidable. I think it's sad how konami doesn't support archetypes more equally.
A good way to help limit the power level of decks is to limit all cards that are legal to 1 copy per deck like in the anime
Kaiba had 3 bewd lol
Bastions Hydrogedons haha
Highlander format 👍
Aigami had like 3 Vijams and 3 Crimson Novas tho
honestly that would be kinda fun and change deckbuilding up a bit i think, i feel like searching cards would be much more powerful but it would be kind of a fun challenge
I'd love it if Yu-Gi-Oh had a Pauper format,
Sure it'd just be another meta that's all about handtraps and negation,
As basically all of the well-known handtraps have a common printing.
But at least it would be different from the main format.
So “fun” decks can still be meta decks but it requires the knowledge of all the players in said tournament to know each decks power in level. Some examples are if a majority of players bring decks can do what they want or if majority of players bring meta decks cause they find them fun. Other example is magic most players besides the draft or competitive scene they would run power levels equal to what was most common at the locals or say what level they playing at depends on the local with this example tho. I think “fun” tournaments can exist in yugioh the tournament rules will have to be very clear about what majority of players running and what is very problematic in terms of how powerful of a card due to meta deck standards.
It's almost impossible unless you want to have dates or years for cards release where you have -1998 -2005 is a old format and 1998-2010 another format you would need to have something like that. But you would just get the meta of the time resurfacing this comes down to konami needs to have cards of different power levels in a set to sell it and have enough chase cards that obvisly have to be stronger thus we have weaker cards how weak vs strong the better the cards is a tricky blance
What my locals does is "casual" tournaments where we don't play anything tier 1 from last 3 years or smth big tournaments and then at the end we vote for the player we believed had the best sportsmanship or the most fun/cool deck. We prevent abuse by only allowing votes for those who the player had dueled against. Prizing goes as normal but is based on votes and if votes are a tie then we use standings. Very cool and stress-free format that we all love
For me, fun is amorphage locking my opponent while putting up 4 disruptions and watching the light drain out of his eyes.
When I think about fun decks or fun duel, I usually think about when I used to play my Horus the black flame dragon Lv.8. Simpler times when you and your opponent actually go back and forth destroying each other's monster cards. Idk if what I'm saying resonates with anyone but man, things were just better. Don't get me wrong I still play those "fun" decks today with a little added spice to keep up with today's standards but it doesn't feel the same. Idk I'm just rambling like Paul does smh lol 😆
Easy. Fun decks mean waifus. Bring out your waifus and have them battle to the death.
Playing against summon with a deck that doesn't have hand traps is fun to me. Being able to watch my opponent construct a board and then overcoming it with my own cards by finding a way to get around it with cards I already have and cards that don't necessarily belong in the archetype, but synergize well with the theme or playstyle of the deck is really cool and I feel that's what yugioh is missing now
6:24
THAT is literally it. It's all we want.
You cant make a competitive multiplayer game and then the game becomes a one player game. If it does that at any point then the game is garbage and unbalanced.
The only thing that was ever supposed to do that was starting the game with Exodia which was a 5*40/5 or /6 if going second.
Aka, A ridiculous percentage for that ever to happen
Even though it bricks a lot and is horribly inconsistent, I always love playing my Odd-Eyes deck. Not only does it allow me to use every summoning method (well I don't run Gravity Dragon because lol), but something about being able to vomit out 2500 beatsticks and go ham is just dope as hell. Plus once in a blue moon I draw Xiangke and can go into Odd-Eyes Raging which is always cool to see it resolve.
Let’s be honest we all know what “fun decks” are and what cards they use can or can’t use, but some people are either so competitive or “trolly” that it creates content for your video
high key
Honestly this video gives me the feeling how people interpret “Fun” is the same mindset one of my friends have which is: “If anything is good against me or if anything counters me or if a player is just better than me I hate it! It’s not fun, f*ck this game!” So basically the way I understand people interpret fun is: “If the opponent doesn’t let me do what I want and win it’s unfun.” And while sure losing sucks, that’s a clown mindset to have… you either have to deal with a meta no matter what because that’s just how games work even at a casual level there are things that beat others (same with a “fun” tournament there are also stronger decks) or you can quit and try again in another game! Your choice 😂
when people say "fun decks" what they really want is for their own deck to be the best because it is yet another external factor that they want to cling to that they don't lose because they are bad, but because meta decks aren't fun
Dear Team APS I honestly think people are overthinking this topic KONAMY made every ARCHETYPE so it has its own unique STRAIGHTS and WEAKNESSES.
5:15 Answer RULE #1 You can only use Cards that belong to 1 ARCHETYPE (So Borreload savage, Utopia... etc are no longer considered NEUTRAL.)
5:02 Answer RULE #2 No floodgates AND no Hand Traps (The point is to PLAY YGO and not make your opponents so he is NOT PLAYING or feel limited cues its not fun its unfair. Understand ?)
5:15 Answer RULE #3. You can add NEUTRAL cards to Deck that dont belong to any OTHER ARCHETYPE. So you can use reinforcement of the army 4 example.
The point of the game is to win. Floodgates and handtraps are a part of that game. If your going to ban floodgates and handtraps, ban solemn judgment, solemn strike, etc.
@@kristopher4746 I agree 100% Any effect negation that can negate anything should be BANED, Monsters that negate effect that targets them specifically is fine by me and is balanced but cards that can negate anything your opponent trows is not fair simply by you having negate you win 90% of time so game become Luck Based you hoping to get Ashe or hoping to Draw that 1 Kaiju you have luck based games are boring effect negates got realy strong with Pendulum Meta that's when almost all of mine friends stoped playing Ygo from 7 players only me and 1 friend continued with this crazy You cant play 25 minits first turn META
Sure Yu Gi Oh destroyed this game competitive and meta decks are too OP lets not talk about all types of summoning
Honestly, spot on. We tried to do a fun deck night a couple years ago. While there were a lot of other reasons it didn't work, a lot of it also boiled down to people just not agreeing on what makes a "fun deck." Some people played janky decks that were too low power to usually play (our locals is fairly small and most people entered the weekly tournaments which only had prizing for first, so no one wanted to pay just to get blown out of the water by better decks and not entering meant you had no one to play with), some played "competitive rogue deck minus the banned cards", and some specifically just tried to solve the format. No one really had much fun, and it left such a sour taste that it ruined any chance our locals had of attempting to run low power tournaments again. Which is slightly unfortunate because we'll still get competitive burn out and want to play our pet decks, but rarely get a solid chance to.
Fun is 100% subjective. Fun for me is seeing my opponent's face when he/she realizes I run a Steelswarm deck.
Just kidding. I really like Steelswarm though and I'm building a deck for it the best way I can - which in no way means it may be somewhat competitive...
The sad part is that "tiering" the game by trying to measure more objective power levels would basically be impossible. Even if you did something like Smogon does for Pokemon battles (assuming we even had usage data to go off of):
1. It would be an iterative process, taking the low percent of competitive decks and finding the low percent in that, and so on, to make tiers
2. Given the format changes with new sets and banlists you'd have to re-establish those tiers on AT LEAST a quarterly basis
Yeah tiering would be the only real solution to keeping everyone on a similar playing field. But like you said unless you come up with some ai to more objectively measure things quickly and to reassess frequently it would a very hard system to maintain
I come from a different game, Magic: the Gathering, but the struggle of 'casual' versus 'competitive' decks among groups is very real and transcends game. To that end, a personal observation:
The most fun I've ever had playing MtG in a 'tournament' style series of games was when one fellow brought The Cube. Cube Draft, for those not in the know, is a draft format where a curated collection of cards (The Cube) is shuffled and separated into 'booster packs' which the players draft from as though it were a normal draft format. Because the contents of the Cube are curated, nothing can existed in the format that isn't explicitly put into the box; since it is a draft format, the skill is in trying to make something functional out of what you draft while the fun is in playing a variety of cards that you might never normally choose to (or be able to) play with. Everyone's Cube is going to be different, and different styles of Cube exist for different types of groups - the one I played was a 'Vintage Cube', deliberately containing some of the most overpowered and often banned cards in the game but only single-copies, at once allowing the experience of playing with cards that most players *never* get to use (because they're too expensive or just banned), while at the same time challenging them to use them in creative ways depending on what they were able to draft along with them. Another friend, inspired by The Cube, had begun making their own 'Crazy Cube', consisting of the *weirdest* and most awkward janky cards in the game, cards which do useful things but in awkward or weird ways, thus demanding players think outside the box just to make things work.
I don't know if YuGiOh has a viable Draft or Sealed Deck format, but perhaps something similar could be done for 'Fun Tournaments' in that regard. "This is the Box of Fun. Everyone grab a stack of 60 random cards from it and try to build the best 30 card Sealed Deck you can with what you pulled. May the odds be in your favor." or something like that, and the person curating the box keeping an eye out for what kinds of cards favor the kind of 'Fun' they want the box to generate, and what kinds of cards make it 'less fun' so they can be swapped out for other options to keep things fresh and interesting. You might get lucky and have a handtrap or two, but have to be careful when you use them. You might pull a big staple spell, but will you get it in time and is this the right time to use it? Etc etc.
Just thoughts. :)
I've always had the most fun with disregarding the ban list entirely and making whatever deck came to mind or really "spoke to me," so to speak. For example, an age old favorite was my middle school/high school tactic of an "All-Around Deck," where I place a little of everything in it to cover any glaring weaknesses (some good low level but high Attack and high Defense monsters, at least one indestructible monster like Marshmallon, a few powerful high level monsters, some nice Special Summoning or removal effect monsters, and any Spells and Traps that can hinder my opponent and/or support my monsters.) Currently, I decided to make a deck based on cards that were prominent both in the Battle City arc of Yu-Gi-Oh! and in real life during that era of the card game (Dark Magician of Chaos, Chaos Emperor Dragon, Jinzo, Red-Eyes Black Dragon, etc.) And sometimes, I just like using cards that I'm sentimental towards or have some personal attachment to, regardless of how "good" or "bad" they are (Kuriboh, Black Luster Soldier, Armed Dragon, Cyber Dragon, Red Dragon Archfiend, Odd-Eyes and Performapals, Dark Magician, etc.)
When it comes to the duels themselves, I'm much more fond of the back and forth between players. Even when I'm winning, I don't get the same satisfaction from dominating the other player for the entire game when compared to the tension of trying to outplay my opponent. There's an unmatched thrill in trying to surpass an actual challenge for me, instead of just winning because I had the better deck or the better opening move or whatever.
It’d be cool to have a tournament a local shops where each week they would add a different summoning mechanic. Only tribute/ritual one week, add fusion the next week and so on. I think that would be pretty fun.
Or limit the card pool to different years every week.
My first really good deck was a monarchs deck. 3 structural put together with some cards that I have (in the time that I bought Pantheism, Ether and advance were limited), and is my favorite deck of all time, I love tot play with him. The fact that a tribute summon archetype can be powerful is great (and yes, I also like true draco).
I have fun for playing with the deck, like the plays, the possibilities, the turn that you resolve 4 Pantheism in one turn, establish a domain lock with eruption set ripping a card of the hand with Erebus or Thestalus. Or tributing the opponent monster and non-targeting shuffle with Erebus, is great.
But other people don't like, usually hate the deck, hate the lock, the one side skill drain. Sure, I can see why, but is the same as a trishula turn hand loop, or any other powerful play, but is part of the game. Playing is the fun, not what are been played, and is different for balance.
Fun for me is just about both players being able to play their decks and me personally not trying to parse a very extended combo. The best experience I've had with this in any kind of tournament setting has been with a "from scratch" setting. And even then, everyone really needs to start along similar routes towards similar decks. If one person starts triple monarch structure it'll be not fun for everyone till they can get past it. So a mix of even starting conditions and being considerate.
For me I think in general a fun deck is just playing a deck because you like the cards for instance I’ve always had and probably always use both elemental heroes and a neos deck. They both aren’t by any means meta but I love the monsters for so many reasons so that’s what I choose to use. I think the main difference between an actual deck and a fun deck is that the person needs to think to their self “am I playing this because I want to win or because I genuinely like the cards”.
I class a fun deck with a few categories.
1. No cards that desrupt the opponent mid combo. This means no hand traps Or any negates.
2. Choose a generation of summoning method to choose from, because of power creap.
3. No link monsters, these are too generic and most don't fit solely into any single deck.
4. You can use any cards as long as they fit into the above rules. You can use e hero sunrise in a gen 2 deck.
Result. This takes each deck to their maximum power with limited methods to keep the deck fit for purpose.
Heroic is a deck that uses powerful xyz monsters to overwhelm the oppenet with attacks, the deck is not designed to put up a board of negates and links.
To make fun decks as balanced as possible, I recommend placing limits on card effects rather than types of cards. No card draw, no more than 2 board wipes, 4 negates, 3 graveyard fetch e.g monster reborn call of the haunted.
Also you could set time limits on turns if you don’t want really long combos. You could use a chess time clock for turns. That way you can get really creative making decks that are good and avoid games that are over in 2-3 turns
I’ve played in a few MTG tournaments where they hard limit the amount of rares and uncommons by putting a price limit on what the decks so you showed up gave them your deck list and show average price of your cards they do a quick verification and your in. It made players think about what power house staples they could put in each deck. Like I know they are different games but I feel like that could be a “fix” to the fun deck tournament. We did games that where 20 40 and 60 dollar decks. So that could be a great way to hold these types of games.
Late to this, but I'd like to try having a set number of moves you can do per turn and then up the limit for different "tiers". Like, try it out with an across the board, "you can only play a card, activate an effect, (special) summon 10 times per player turn and 5 during your opponent's turn" then fine tune it from there with more specific stuff. At least for "fun" decks 'cuz that gives both players some more decision making to do but also hopefully more time to play against each other as well. I'm pretty fresh into the modern scene, though, so some cards now may just spit on that idea.
I know, for me, it gets very unfun in ANY game when it takes a long time to get to my turn, like a fighting game with insanely long combo-routes or block strings. Fun to execute but garbage to be on the receiving end of. I know the solution isn't always as clear cut as "just limit this stuff" because you've gotta work around how the game is designed in many instances, but that would be a good start for me, a nostalgic player getting back into it.
I also agree with another video you did talking about omni-negates being a pain to deal with due to their lack of drawbacks. Maybe limiting them or banning them in favor of cards that involve more decision making than "how much of the board do you want to shut down right now? yes? OK, let's do it". It's a complex issue due to the scale of the game and cards available, but those are my two cents.