We upgraded to Lithium Batteries / What it took to get there and how they work for us
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
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In this video, Martin goes over why and how we upgraded to Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries on our boat and also discusses what happened to our Firefly batteries.
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On my previous boat a North Pacific trawler, I had a need to replace the water heater. Replaced water heater with a Torrid, which had 2 exchanger fittings. everything plumbed as original, with the spare exchanger coil not being used. Not liking to run generator to make hot water, I had another idea. I was lucky to pick up a Espar Hydronic heater new, for half price. Install went easy enough. Ran Espar hoses thru 2nd exchanger on water heater and thru 2 floor heaters to provide additional cabin heat. this made hot water but still took an hour. Using something similar to a Hurricane heater, I bought a 20 plate, water to water exchanger made by Badger out of Wisconsin. Ran Espar thru one side, and the fresh hotwater line thru other side. Now having hot water for showers or galley was as simple as cranking up Espar, waiting 4-5 minutes and voila hot water. You could have hot, hot water all day till Espar ran out of fuel. Water temp from espar was around 175F. You could measure the heated air from floor heaters at about 160. With hot water running the air temps would drop to about 100 degrees, so Plate exchanger was very efficient and the water very hot..Now have an R27, and am thinking of Lithium, but may go with say a 200 amp bank, and try to find another deal on a hydronic. Existing Ranger water heater has a coil, not being used, so that could be put to work. I have a 330 Solar panel in garage, that will be my next project. Just trying to decide how I would wire the Lithium and how to charge. Have had solar on previous 2 boats, and 550 watts on RV, so that part will go easy. Hope this will put some ideas into the DIY's out there. Thanks Dan, ANNA D
I've never heard of espar. But using diesel as a fuel to heat hot water would make total sense since I already have the Webasto diesel heater with a 5 gallon diesel tank.
I have the LiFEPO4 figured out on our RT27-OB. I've also got 400 watts of solar that's awesome. Hit me up if you have any questions or would like to discuss in further detail.
@@Letsgochannelsurfing Webasto makes hydronic heaters too.
I always see the love between you and your bride. Good video today. This is not the first video where you showed your understanding of electricity. Smart couple. I’m having fun and learning watching you guys.
Thank you so much!
You do good clean work.
Thank you!!
Been waiting for this one! Thanks!
Hope you like it!
Nice setup . And that boat is beautiful ❤️. I like what you have done to it . Especially the vinyl flooring. My boat has a white and blue theme. It's just a 20 ft center console inboard/outboard fish and ski boat. I have 2 nice set in parallel marine deep cycle battery for engine power and main power to everything original to the boat . I have a small solar powered trickle charger/maintainer hooked up to those independently just to keep them topped off mainly while sitting. But I have added some onboard lighting, stereo system and I have a led light bar and 2 smaller square adjustable position secondary peripheral led lights one on each side of the center light bar . All that is ran off a really nice AGM battery it's nice and small for what it is . But it's 40 Ah and I have a battery cable ran from the alternator with a disconnect switch mounted inside of the center console in easy reach . That way when I have the motor going I can charge my accessory battery. I also have another small solar powered battery tender to maintain that battery when sitting independent of the one for the main power. The disconnect allows me to turn off and isolate my accessory battery when sitting and engine off from the engine charging system and batteries. But all of that is tucked up nicely in the center console area that way when sitting engine off I can run all my secondary accessories without having to worry about killing my engine batteries. I like redundancy when it comes to boats 😂. But it's all a very simple but effective setup I have a nice fused distribution block and fused 5 switch panel that I run all my secondaries on and an inline fuse on the charging cable going to the accessory battery. I know that sounds like alot but I like to keep things safe and would like to keep my boat afloat haha. There is also 2 more batteries up front in the bow for a small panel with a battery gauge and ports for a 12/24 volt trolling motor. I don't really care for trolling motors but I'd like to find like a small cheap air cooled 5 HP kicker motor I could mount in its place that is yet to come . Again for redundant purposes in case of engine trouble I could limp in with that and I don't want to mount it in the rear due to not wanting to lose swim deck area . Thanks for the video bud. And I agree when I say simple setup that's a huge understatement and it does take hours and hours to plan everything out verify it works in real life and like you said installation happens twice on everything 90 percent of the time . I have more time in electrical work than i have on anything else on my boat . Luckily I'm freshwater and don't get the salt problems. But to me it's worth to do it right the first time and when boats are involved safety is number 1 I'm also a huge fan of redundancy. I carry a double of the most important things and things most common to fail and I have a small tool box I keep on board and extra prop . You get the idea . I hate being down especially in the water at a bad time .
Thank you, and thanks for watching!! I like redundancy as well, whenever I can add it. Saltwater is brutal, it's just a constant battle to stay clean, and get the salt off.
Great video and Great job on the extensive design work you put into this conversion. Very impressive.
My wife and I purchased our 2018 ranger tug R27 (Next Chapter) last July with the original factory AGM,S and we blew them up two weeks later while out at Sucia (luckily we got home ok, but I started my battery replacement project like you did with lifepo4,s. In my design, I removed the two house and the bow thruster and replaced them with two 300 amp lithium’s. (No longer have a dedicated battery for the bow thruster battery as I only used it for small bursts when docking and my new lithiums have the ability for a continuous 200 amp 2400 watt output). Since there was a bit more space where the thruster battery was I was able to install both 300 amp lithiums in parallel in very close to same space the two house and thruster battery were in. I also removed all ACR’S and put in a renology 20 amp dc to dc charger from the starter battery to the new lithium’s. I replaced the original UPC starter battery with a 1200 MCCA duel purpose agm deep cycle battery. I also installed a 485 watt solar panel and connected it to the 600 amp house bank with a Renology 40 amp charge controller. My wife loves her hot water so I knew I had to ensure we had enough juice to power up everything and have also have hot water. We use between 120-200 amps per day depending on hot water and so far we have been able to replace 100- 200 (depending on sun) of those amps each day just from our solar panel. Because of this I installed an on/off switch on the dc to dc charger and only use the engine alternator to charge house when needed. Now that the alternator is only charging the starter battery. I noticed a small improvement in fuel consumption.
Keep the videos coming. I really enjoy watching all your upgrades!
Hope to see you on the water someday! We are moored in Anacortes. Heading out to Stuart tomorrow to get some more shrimp.
That's awesome! Hope to meet up with you sometime this season out on the water! We love Sucia and Prevost.
Hi Martin. What application did you use to create your wiring diagram? I am wanting to create my own diagram.
Thanks for watching! I used draw.io which is free. :)
If you've got an RT27-OB NW edition, you are free to use this design, as-is, without modification... same parts, same battery, same fuses, same everything... as it's been fully vetted by Ocean Planet Energy and approved by Lithionics via a paid engagement.
All the drawings and more details can be found at our website.
www.letsgochannelsurfing.com/lithium
So I noticed you used or looked like you used that plastic marine board. I have some project coming up that may need alot. Have you found an inexpensive source to buy at or did you just go to Harbor Marine? Amazon didn't seem very cheap.
I used Harbor Marine, and know of no inexpensive source to buy it at. Luckily, I didn't need a lot.
Can you give us the information of the marine electrical video you watched? Thanks for the info.
Thanks for watching!
This is the online marine electrical course.
boathowto.com/#aff=OceanPlanetEnergy
Awesome video. You said you kept the parallel switch, would that combine the SLA and the lifepo4 batteries? Is that OK? Or would you only do that to jump start the outboard? Are there any issues with trying to use a lifepo4 as a starter? Thanks!
Great question!
It's not recommended to parallel LFP and FLA/AGM. However, for purposes of starting an engine, which counts as an emergency, I am able to combine the House and Engine batteries to start the engine on rare occasion off the LFP bank. In general, LFP is not designed or meant for engine starting.
That being said, my auxiliary T9.9 kicker engine is connected to the Thruster battery. This technically gives me two engine batteries. One for the primary Yamaha F300, and the other for the thruster/kicker starter engine battery If my primary engine battery died, I could start my T9.9 kicker off the thruster battery and get back to the dock.
However, there's one other feature of the system: Storage of the house bank. LFP doesn't like to be stored fully charged or fully discharged. It's most stable at 50% SOC, but realistically... kept stored between 5% and 95% is almost as good as being at 50% SOC.
When I hit the dock after a trip and put the boat away for a week or more, the battery is sometimes back to 100% charged from engine and solar charging on the trip home. I've adopted the following procedure:
1) Turn on the inverter and run the hot water heater to bring down the LFP state of charge (SOC) from 100% to less than 95%. This doesn't take very long. I do this while rinsing the boat.
2) Plug into shore power.
3) Parallel the engine and house battery together.
4) Trip the 250amp house DC breaker next to the LFP battery. This disconnects the LFP battery entirely from the boat.
5) Turn on the engine battery charger.
6) Turn off the Orion TR-1 (engine to house DC to DC charger). (set to charger disabled).
Hopefully this doesn't look too complicated. All this procedure does is draws the LFP bank to less than 95% SOC, then completely isolates the LFP bank from the boat. It also sets the house loads to be powered off the engine battery (via the parallel switch), which is being fed by the 20 amp engine battery charger.
So, my boat still works at the dock, my refrigerators stay running, lights and bilge pumps all work. All powered via shorepower through the engine 20amp battery charger. My 60amp house battery charger remains off. The boat can sit like this for months.
This helps extend the life of LFP by not leaving it at 100% SOC constantly.
@@Letsgochannelsurfing Great info. For your two Orion-Tr DC-to-DC chargers, how come you went with one isolated and one non-isolated? Thanks.
@@tomw7863 The isolated was available to ship, the non isolated wasn’t. Supply chain issue. Then when I decided to do a second one for the thruster, the non isolated one was available.
I’ve heard the non isolated is more efficient. But since I have one of each, it makes it easier for me to tell them apart in the Victron app.
So, which is easier and/or cheaper? Adding lithium to a Northwest Edition or adding heat to a Luxury Edition
Great question. LFP addition to a NW edition is not cheap nor easy. Air conditioning is installed under the helm seat, where the Webasto diesel heater would go. This is why the factory currently doesn't offer diesel heat with LFP/Air conditioning.
If you didn't need air conditioning, it's probably easier and cheaper to get a NW edition with heat and add LFP to it. Adding heat (Webasto diesel heater) requires adding a fuel tank, a way to fill the fuel tank, and a thru-hull connection for the exhaust. Adding LFP is all electrical work inside the boat.
How does your setup compare to the factory lithium option? If you know. Thanks.
Great question. Here’s the differences.
The factory uses a DMT1250. It’s a dual purpose DC to DC charger. It takes input from the engine and from solar, outputs to the LFP bank. If the engine is running than solar can’t help. But it’s a 50 amp dc to dc charger. Solar only works when the engine is turned off.
In my setup, I have a 30 amp dc to dc charger and a 30 amp solar controller that each work independent of each other. They both work at the same time.
I also have a 250amp dc breaker that allows me to easily isolate the LFP bank from the boat for storage. The factory setup has a T-class fuse.
the factory setup fills the entire port lazarette up, leaving no space for storage at all. My port lazarette has plenty of space for storage. But I give up 1/3 of the space in the center cockpit lazarette to the battery.
I have single 320ah battery, the factory setup is 6 100ah batteries connected in parallel. The single lithionics battery is a bit lighter in weight as a result.
The factory uses Dakota LFP batteries. I went with Lithionics. I have a Bluetooth interface to access the BMS of the lithionics battery. This also provides a battery monitor. (In addition to the Victron battery monitor). The Dakota batteries have no such interface that I’m aware of.
@@Letsgochannelsurfing I think I got most of that :). Sounds like yours is better. Could you add another battery if you found the need?
@@bigvisk1125 the system I rewired for can handle any battery at this point. Agm, lfp, whatever.
The specific Lithionics 320ah battery I chose does not support adding another battery with it. It has to do with the internal BMS that it has not supporting additional batteries. However, Lithionics makes a 630ah battery, the bigger version of the battery I bought. Same dimensions, just 6inches wider. It’d fit in the same spot on my boat and would literally be a drop-in replacement.
lithionicsbattery.com/product/12v-630ah-e2112-gtx-ul-battery/
@@Letsgochannelsurfing that's epic. I dont have an r27 yet but it is the front runner for us. I think these mods might make ny back explode but I do think your system is pretty epic.
Are you still storing the dinghy in there with the new batt setup ?
Negative. It doesn't fit. We store our dinghy on the boat only when we know we may need it. We keep it deflated in its storage bag. It just sits in the cockpit on the port side, neatly out of the way. Or we'll inflate it and use the PVC T we made for the ski tow bar and store it upside down in the cockpit that way. Or we may put it vertical, on it's side, in the transom doorway. Lastly, we may showboat and just drag it behind us.
@@LetsgochannelsurfingPuts and takes right? ;) good video on your project. I run a skinnier LFP system in my truck for overlanding. Ranger on the horizon tho. Best wishes closing out our PNW summer.
Boats are all about compromise. :)
I'm wondering whether it would have been feasible to use a propane hot water heater similar to ones found in old RV's or an actual on-demand propane water heater? I have a feeling that you considered this option, but I'd love to hear your reasons for not going with that option.
Great question! Many have asked me about this.
Anything in the cockpit, per ABYC standards, has to be ignition proof since there's a 150 gallon gasoline tank there. Propane is heavier than air and would collect in the bilge, next to the gasoline tank. And a propane hot water heater would require a pilot light, which is a source of ignition. There isn't any space inside the cabin to put a 6 gallon hot water heater and still be able to ensure propane doesn't collect and build up.
This is a really important discussion point. Most diesel inboards (that Ranger Tug makes) have an inverter/charger. One device that acts as a battery charger when connected to shorepower, and acts as an inverter when away from shorepower. But inverters are not ignition proof in how they work. We have a battery charger (2 of them now) located in the cockpit. But the inverter is located inside the cabin, away from the gasoline tank, to maintain ABYC standards of being ignition proof around gasoline. It's less expensive to buy an inverter/charger as opposed to an inverter and a charger as separate devices. It's all about safety onboard.
In the video at the 19:10 minute mark you can see 1/2 of the hot water heater as it's in the starboard lazarette, which sits right next to the gas tank which is the forward most section of the center cockpit lazarette.
Thank you for asking this question.
@@Letsgochannelsurfing Thank YOU for an informative explanation re: propane hot water heaters and safety.
sounds like at least 1 more battery would be ideal.
Actually, the 1 battery suits are purposes just fine. Having 240ah usable, is plenty. We just got back from 9 days on the boat, without shorepower. We spent 3 days consecutive at anchor. Solar power is key to refill the battery. I also like just having 1 battery instead of several, or a half a dozen.
Did you ever figure out what happened to the Firefly batteries?
The moved the manufacturing from North America to India. Quality control was lost. Too many warranty claims and the US distributor/importer of Firefly batteries stopped importing them until they get their quality control figured out.