ROGER THAT: Masters of the Air(waves)
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- A video discussing the use by film makers of anachronistic radio jargon.
MUSIC
Laconic Granny
Laconic Granny Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
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More information on the German Army in general, and the 65th Infantry Division in particular, can be found at www.handgrenadedivision.com
“Roger, Roger, can you get us our vector, Victor? Yes we got clearance Clarence”
I think he ate the fish
Roger that . . . 😅
Since phonetic alphabets were far from standardised at the time, we can somewhat narrow down the timing. Roger was used by the US navy from the twenties, but only adopted by the army and the british later (39 for the army and 43 for the british). It was droped for the modern romeo in 56. This indicates that the jargon was either from ww2 or the korean was and if interwar, likely from the US navy, or associated branches such as the marines or naval aviation. It is unlikely to have been an independent british development later adopdet by US troops.
I entered active duty in the US Army (101st ABN (Air Assault), 9th Infantry Div,. and 2nd Infantry DIv.) in 1978. I never heard "Roger That" once. I left the Army in 1985 only to reenlist in 1998, and by then It was used widely.
"Roger that!"
"Roger what?"
"Roger there!"
Police that use 10-codes, 10-4 is typical used for message received or understood. However under stress or use by "rookies" will use 10-4 as an affirmative or yes answer.
I was a helicopter (where radio coms were everything) in Vietnam...72...late in the war. Roger That was commonly used for understood...received...whatever. But in WWII? Nope. What gets me is the use of "incoming" for pretty much everything. In WWII "incoming mail" for enemy artillery was fairly common (I think) But "incoming" for flak or fighters in WWII...uh, No way. Even in Vietnam one would never hear incoming for ground fire or AAA.
Welcome home, and thanks for the comment.
FYI, from an Australian standpoint - R = Romeo. Roger = received and understood. Wilco = Received and will comply (in response to an order). No "Roger that", nor "Copy".
Considering how much went into this show, "Roger that" is probably something that slipped under the radar during pre-production.
Mistakes happen all the time with these big budget films and shows with hundreds of people running around.
I wonder if it didn't happen on set, with actors who have heard the phrase all the time and used it naturally. There may well be a script writer or two cringing in their media room as they see the final product.
@HandGrenadeDivision possibly, another answer may be that it came from Dale Dye, who was an advisor on the film, though I'm assuming it was more with army lingo rather than how to operate a B-17. And since he's a Vietnam vet, he may have picked it up during his service and told it to the actors.
It’s been a while, but when I was training on my private pilots certification I was told you could only real use roger, meaning received , with “will comply” the distinction being you heard a direction and we’re going to do it.
When I did the Canadian tactical dismounted signalers course, I was led to believe in the infantry context you could even just say "Wilco" on its own since it also communicated the fact that you had heard the previous transmission (or else, why would you comply with it?) Very interesting to see all the different perspectives in the comments (army, navy, airforce, commercial airline, private pilot, etc.)
It's safe to say that in WW2, when you were given information, you replied with "Roger," but when given an order, you replied with "Wilco."
1988-2018 were my years in uniform and we said both 'roger' and 'roger that' - the addition fraction of a second in saying 'that' is essentially irrelevant to getting DFed (directionally found).
Was there a functional difference between saying roger, and roger that, or was it just a verbal tic?
In Vietnam we said “Roger that,” on the radio all the time. I served with Delta Company 1st Bn 3rd Marines, Vietnam 66-67, or as we would say “Delta one three.” “Roger that” confirms that the person receiving the message fully 😮understands it. Either way it’s not a big deal, nor something anyone in the military, who has spoken on a radio, even thinks about.
We don’t use the term “over and out.” When you transmit “over” it means you are expecting a response. When you say “out,” you are terminating the message. So “over and out” is inconsistent with both “over”and “out.”
In addition, when you are communicating with one station on one topic, e.g., a call for fire, or a “9-line brief” to an aircraft, we dispense with the over.
Dale Dye is the military advisor to Masters of the Air. I trust his research and experience more than I trust people complaining about what they have seen on Masters of the Air. If you read the book, you will find that the 100th Bomb Group only plays a part of the story of the 8th Air Force bombing campaign. They didn’t even suffer the worst one day losses. That title belongs to a B-24 outfit. Even Harry Crosby acknowledges this in his book, as well as acknowledging that they did have some the worst loses at that time frame, mid 1943 to the end of 1943, when the first got to England and began flying missions and before the introduction of long range escort, and not only P-51s, but P-47s and P-38s, when they began to be equipped with drop tanks.
I’ve been watching it and I think it is very good in capturing the life of WW2 bomber combat crews. Is it perfect? No, but neither was “Saving Private Ryan,” a fake story with terrible tactics (we don’t put machine guns in church steeples), or “Band of Brothers,” which makes Easy Company appear to win WW2 when in fact it was their first combat action as opposed to the many Army Infantry Division that were in combat since North Africa, Sicily and Italy, or the “Pacific.”
But, what they all have done is give those who have never served, some small idea, a very small idea, what it is like to serve in combat, which is a gut wrenching, soul shattering, and life long lasting experience that never goes away.
No quibbles with most of what you say, though worth noting Dale Dye was the senior advisor on SPR. No idea how much of the "terrible tactics" were attributable to him as opposed to the script writer and director, but I've seen at the very least the idea that Hawkins mines could be turned into ad hoc command-detonated claymores laid at his feet. I'd suggest he's as susceptible to conflating modern practice with 1940s practice as anyone commenting here. For what it is worth, I've enjoyed all the films you mention. That doesn't mean discussions of authenticity aren't worth having. In fact, I've always felt that it should be taken for granted that films will get many things wrong in the sake of story-telling, and that audiences should use them as a springboard to books and memoirs to get the "real" story.
@@HandGrenadeDivision Thanks for the response. Dale Dye has stated on more than one occasion that when authenticity bumps against what the director or the screen writer wants, then authenticity loses. His job was to minimize the loss. He also knows better than to put a machine gun in a tower as they did in SPR. Machine guns are most effective when they provide grazing fire and not as a point weapon, a lesson learned in WW1. They also operate in pairs. The bridge in SPR is a choke point, knock out the tank at the entrance, and if you can’t, you blow it. Either way you deny access to the bridge. In addition, whether the bridge remained intact or not was not important as every American, British and Canadian division had Bailey Bridges (a British invention) that could be quickly, hours not days, or constructed by engineers( they are still used). But, I understand that doing it the way it was done in SPR is much more dramatic.
In the Battle of the Bulge the engineers blew every bridge they came across, thus slowing down the Germans advance, and earning Pipers disparaging comment “Those damn engineers.”
In Normandy, the biggest problem for the allies were not finding a bridge, but the Bocage County, i.e., the hedge rows that made every field a major battle.
Instead of resorting to fiction, the film maker could have easily told a true story about actual courage and sacrifice. There were 10 Medal of Honor recipients between June 6 and June 11, 1944. Any one of their stories would have honored all those who served there, for example Walter Ehlers had been with the 1st Infantry Division since North Africa, and his brother was killed on D-Day.
Thanks for posting, I enjoy reading your comments and the comments of others. I agree with you that if you really want to know what happened read a history book.
Since we're bashing SPR I'll share my favourite nit. The idiotic MG scene at the radar site. Obviously the plot demanded that someone die. Now, as you state well, MGs are valuable assets and rarely left out in the middle of nowhere alone. The scene as depicted made no sense. But you could have had all the important story elements intact if you had decided to have Miller order them through a suspected minefield to save time. In fact, the story begins with Hanks' character telling Dennis Farina's (too-old) colonel that they lost men to minefields in the fighting right after D-Day. What a great setup. You have all the dramatic elements - Miller orders them to do something risky, someone gets killed, Ed Burns' character freaks out, then the dramatic reveal of Miller's background. And you'd also lose the dumb "Steamboat Willie" subplot which ends with Upham redeeming himself - by committing a war crime against someone just doing his job. Long story short, I have a lot of issues with the movie, but the social impact of the film seems to outweigh all that. It put World War II veterans very firmly back in the public consciousness and did a great deal to promote memory of the war when it was starting to fade out. The online community that built up around the film made me friends I still have 25 years later.
@@HandGrenadeDivision I agree. I couldn’t understand why they took on one MG guarding a bombed radar cite when their order was to find Ryan. The excuse that someone else would have to do it is weak. If a rifle company had come upon it, the company commander (And I was a rifle company commander) would either use his 60mm mortars (a company commander’s hip pocket artillery). or a couple of rifle grenades. It was unnecessary to do a frontal attack, except to get someone killed as you point out.
Even with all its flaws, and there are many (it’s Hollywood after all) I also agree with you that I’m glad it was made so the remaining WW2 vets could be honored. I won’t hold my breath for something like that happening for Vietnam vets.
Welcome home.
I was Active Navy for 20 years and “Roger That” originated in the Navy in the Vietnam era meaning you understood the order instead of Roger Wilco which was Air Force speak for the same thing
Interesting, thank you. Dale Dye, the Marine veteran who was the military advisor on Platoon, apparently got some flak for having the soldiers refer to the helicopters as "Helos" which apparently was also a Navy/USMC term.
I read that 'Wilco' is short for "Will comply" which is different from Roger, which merely means message received.
Just a video idea, but can you do a uniform video of the german tropical uniforms?
I was actually thinking about this the other day. I found some references to them in the operations log of the Hand Grenade Division (65. Infanterie Division) and I would like to do something at some point about "summer dress' in Italy. Thanks for the suggestion - if I can find some decent references - and the time - it's on my short list.
10-4 good buddy!
It would fit the period since it uses the pre-NATO phonetic alphabet.
Roger should be followed by an over or an out on tactical land nets. Air transmissions routinely dont include overs and outs.
As an airline pilot we use roger and Wilco and affirm and negativ i hate whenever they say roger that in the movies. Its laughably wrong and so damn easy to fix but they dont...just lazy writing
Was ist dass? Dass ist Was!
A video about the Russian Army, Navy, and Airforce ranks would be cool. One about German Naval Ranks and uniforms would be cool too
“Who the hell is Rodger?”
Did I hear Roger wilco? 😅
That, too.
I just don't think "Romeo That" would work. R in the NATO alphabet is Romeo.
I didn't think my comment was so shitty it would get removed.
Haven't removed any comments on this one, at least not yet. Post it again and if it is on topic, informative and/or funny without being profane or attacking other commenters, odds are it will stay.
@@HandGrenadeDivision
Nope,
I didn't use profanity,
Violent terms or ANYTHING RACIST.
Just a compliment on the vid and a quick story of mine, inline with the topic.
I commented early this morning when the vid dropped.
Honestly, I never saw it. Must be a glitch - please try again.
@@HandGrenadeDivision
No problem.
See you next vid. 👍
RUclips does this all the time, lol.