This is great news for customers and installers alike! The more affordable these systems are the more people can benefit from them. We are seeing a huge surge in demand since the announcement of 0% VAT from Feb.
Agreed - and I think with the continued fall in battery prices, the decision to get into renewables will soon become a no-brainer, even for those who can't (or don't want to) have solar panels. All the best for 2024!
Yeah, it's great to see the government fixing what was a recognised omission from the scheme. And I have a video on battery-only installations coming up soon! :-)
Yes that was a big factor when I had my system installed. Waiting to add batteries after the initial install would’ve meant they would’ve cost 20% more. Glad to see that changes in Feb 👍
Really useful video as ever, thanks for all of them. I have solar and a battery currently and was going to increase storage capacity by buying another (different manufacturer's) battery. Cannot do that however because I cannot see how to stop them fighting each other for charge and discharge. Could I put in a plea for a video for non-techies on off the shelf control systems for different installations? Thanks again Gary.
Thanks for the great feedback. Yeah, for control systems covering multiple manufacturers' products, the only game in town is Home Assistant as far as I can see... Luckily, there are many channels covering that; not least, Speak To The Geek: ruclips.net/channel/UC25zb7Sojh4KUv5CsFYH-6Q
A factor that often gets overlooked is the uninterrupted power during power outages on the grid. Keeping refrigerators and medical equipment running is hard to put a price on. Also the pure sine wave from the inverter protects sensitive electronics during brownout.
But beware…. Customers should not presume that their solar / battery installation comes with this capability “out of the box”. Most don’t unless specifically requested - due to additional expense of switchover wiring and whole house earth-spike. I.E. this feature relies on more than just inverter capability as I found out when my (GivEnergy) installation was being commissioned. Customers interested in this capability need to specifically ask about this feature before installation starts.
not an option where i live, you can not produce in "island operation" its not allowed do to safety they say. we almost never have blackout and brownout is never happening.
That might be OK in the US where I understand you have crap grid reliability but it is not as simple as that. Here in the UK any grid tied system must shut down when there is a power cut. This is because, when the power is restored the connected equipment must output power that is in phase with the grid. If that does not happen huge currents will flow accompanied by instant blowing of the main supply fuse.
Another Super video, I’ve learned a tremendous amount from your videos. So much so I’ve just signed up to become a Patreon member as a way of saying thanks for all the excellent content and info sharing and also to help me figure out what solar and battery installation I should invest in over the next few months. 🤞
Hi Olaf, thank you so much for your kind words, and also signing up to my Patreon - that's very much appreciated and I hope my content is able to provide the information you need :-)
Took the plunge last year with a 6.5 kWh home battery and it’s saved me £600 already. Well on track to pay back in year 6. Best investment I’ve done in a long time.
This is great to hear, Alistair - thanks for sharing! It's still a big purchase so experiences like you're having will help people make the decision :-)
@@andrewallen9993 gamble no, risk investment yes like all trading, I've got battery and solar nice little savings per year but best investment definitely not.
Excellent video again Garry. The level of research you must use to get all your data is very impressive. It’s nice to see someone who backs up their reasoning with solid market analysis and not just gut reactions.
We are looking at solar in the near future as we have our 1st ev on order 5 months waiting list and this got me thinking charge a battery on cheaper off peek and be able to charge the eV faster and when ever suits with dc charge also a video you could make is ev to home using the ev as the bank you take with you. I'm unsure if the ev we have on order dose ev to home power (it's the vw group 2024 update id4 id5 q4 skoda enyaq) enyaq semas to be the better deal (bigger boot and more toys for similar price point of) but to charge a ev fully I'm going to need a decent home battery 😵
@GaryDoesSolar would this work? I run a 7.9 turbo diesel compressor on a daily basis for work it's all factored into the cost of the job so basically free to charge a dc battery off the alternator what sort of kwh would 150amp on say 8 hours charge achive? I have enough room on the truck etc just firing ideas out I like the idea of being able to harvest power from energy I'm getting paid to use 😏
Good afternoon, thank You for informative video. As an electrical engineer and a professional in the area (home and business installations) I can confirm and endorse the sense of batteries. It can not only save money, but I see it as integral part of "system service". Every hybrid installation with batteries alleviates load / production spikes presented to grid what helps stability of the grid. Home battery helps you cover day / night cycles and in connection with "virtual battery" helps cover seasonal changes. In Slovakia, where I am from, it in practice does not make sense to charge battery at night and discharge during peak load, because electricity price difference between peak and offpeak are less than amortization of the battery per kWh. According to current prices any my calculation one has to account for cca 10 eurocents / pences for each kWh stored and withdrawn from the physical battery.
Hi Adrian, you're most welcome - and thanks for the insight into the Slovakian market - very useful. Here's a utility that I'll be releasing soon, which you might like to try, in order to test if there is an ROI for a battery (only) solution: garydoessolar.com/utilities/batarazma/
@@GaryDoesSolar Thank You Gary for reply. I consider spreading awareness as 50% of our work. To give You an insight into central-european prices for homes (not businesses!). We usually (I mean Slovakia, Czech republic to a certain degree) have 2 tarrif bands - peak and off-peak. Price consists of electricity price and system service price per kWh. So neglecting monthly fixed fee for connection point we have two components of price per kWh: constant "service price of electricity delivery per kWh" and variable "peak or off-peak electricity price per kWh". "Service price of electricity delivery per kWh" is around 7-9 eurocents. Prices for homes are heavily subsidized resulting in "peak or off-peak electricity price per kWh" being in range of 6-11 eurocents. So practically we have electricity for about 16-20 eurocents per kWh. 4eurocent difference does not pay itself when you need to account for around 10eurocents per kWh of battery amortization. I see these subsidies causing an issue of wider adoption or motivation into investments of homeowners into such systems, as economically from an individual homeowner perspective they do not pay off sooner than in 10 years. However i see this as part of "one's critical infrastructure". It is not about just price of electricity, but about services as well. With your own battery you have basically UPS for your whole house. When more people work from home, suddenly it makes more sense for those people to have this perspective on the topic, but again, we are speaking of not very large group of people to whom this matters. Businesses however pay around 40 eurocents per kWh, but are facing more beraucracy from the state, so overall PV energy adoption is slower than it could be.
@@Adrian-foto Cheers for the extra detail, Adrian - much appreciated. Yeah, bureaucracy is always going to be a problem - that really needs to be fixed first in order to drive adoption.
Based on the figures i have, the heat pump is averaging 30kwh a day for november and december. Jan is coming out broadly the same when i exclude what the 10kw pv array is producing. I am looking to collect more data but moving from 21kwh to 30kwh of storage should meet the requirements for nov and jan. We will end up importing peak a bit in December, but importing peak 1 month out of the year is something i can cope with
That sounds like a pragmatic approach. I'd love to hear if it pans out as you expect because I'm looking to get a heat pump myself at some point - thanks! Feel free to email me@GaryDoesSolar.com if you prefer not to comment here...
My Wife and I have saved over $40,000 over the last 12 years by getting Solar panels and Solar Hot water. Our Gas was going up each year to the point we were paying near on $300 a quarter and Electric we were a little over $300 a Quarter, so a saving of $2400 a year, plus the $2000+ we got back from Solar credits.
Could you possibly show examples of actual purchase prices of home batteries. It's wonderful to know prices are coming down for manufacturers to below $150/kwh but what is the retail cost? I can't find a prebuilt ESS for less than around $250/kwh here in the States. I could build one for around $185 or $200 but it wouldn't be legal to install in my home. Thank you.
I wish I had more time, and I'd be able to do this, especially for different regions around the world. But I trust in an open market, that healthy competition between suppliers will keep prices in check...
Hi Gary, I was wondering if you are planning on researching V2L vehicles. I was trying to find information on this new approach to energy storage. Im not sure if im wrong buy it makes sense to me to instead of buying an expensive home battery would it be better using that money to buy a vehicle that has V2L capability. Also by looking to the batteries size it seems that it is a better deal per KWh.
Hi there Joan - yeah, a video on this is definitely on the cards. Being able to make use of a large battery asset that is sitting on your drive a large percentage of the time has to afford benefits in principle, but I want to understand better what the downsides might be as well. And the trouble I've got is that currently, there's not enough real-world experience of V2G/V2H yet, which I'd want to study. I'll keep an eye on how the market evolves - thanks for raising!
I have a car with V2L capability and I was looking for a way to use that facility to act as a battery for my house. Those electricians I have spoken to suggest that using the battery to supply my house is currently not possible as the frequencies from the battery and the mains are likely to be different. Yes I could use the facility on a standalone basis to power a kettle or some other appliance but not as the equivalent as a home battery. They all basically said wait for V2G technology which ( hopefully) will be coming next year ( or later this year 2024) with a two way vehicle charger. If anyone has successfully used the V2L to supply their house, ( and not just as a stand-alone system) I would be interested to hear and what technology they have used.
It's currently pretty hard to use a car as a home battery. There are two main issues: 1. the car's inverter isn't designed to accurately match the frequency and phase of the grid - it's not a 'grid tied inverter'. 2. the car doesn't know how much power to produce. A home battery usually has a device to monitor how power flow between the house and the grid. Until there are standards for this, built into most cars, V2G systems need to use an external inverter connected to the car's DC rapid charge port. That makes them big and expensive.
@@robinbennett5994the idea is to transfer energy from the car battery to the home battery at a constant rate and let the home inverter control the consumption of the house but to only draw power from the home battery. This way the car battery only have to deal with the recharging of the home battery at one constant load is like going on the motor way if this makes sense
I heard that all Nissan Leaf models from 2013 onwards are approved for use with the FE-15 bidirectional charger (V2G). If that's the case, then those models can be used as home battery storage whilst connected.
Hi Gary. I started out installing solar and batteries (and an EV) in an effort to reduce greenhouse gases. Unfortunately, the financial advantages of always using cheaper electricity to fill the batteries every night and then being able to export excess solar at twice the price is difficult to resist (I don't, resist that is). The added incentive to export in saving sessions also results in a huge financial gain. At the moment, I can easily handle a one hour session but the temptation to buy another battery to handle two hours is becoming too great. I can just about justify another battery on the grounds that we wouldn't need to load shift washing machine, dishwasher, etc.. (We have a heat pump dryer which we don't load shift to avoid taking two days to do a load of washing!). Feb 1st makes the purchase more likely.
Sounds great - and actually, I'd argue that by exercising your batteries as you do you're reducing greenhouse gases even more, as the grid doesn't need to burn as much marginal generation fuel :-)
I am all for looking after the environment , however when singing the praises of solar, battery and wind we only look at a fraction of the story. When you look at the whole picture none of these products are as environmentally friendly as they are being projected . Lets not fool ourselves, those singing the loudest are normally the ones who are profiting, the damage being done to the environment to produce the so called environmentally friendly products are totally ignored. A classic example of this is Ethanol being put into petrol to clean up the emission , totally ignoring the fact that it takes 9.3 lts of dirty Diesel to produce 1ltr of ethanol, not everything is as green as we are being told.
I think sodium ion or some form of flow battery will win out for home batteries where weight and space are not limiting factors. They just need to come online. Manufacturing capacity not there yet for this market segment.
Thanks Gary. Much appreciated. I purchased my system buying only A small 5.1 kWh battery. This was in hope of this trend happening that you talk about. Now that VAT is going on batteries from February and this year is probably an election year I will keep my eyes open for an opportunity to enlarge my system.
my roof were totoally no suitable for solar two gable on southish facing side and other part is north facing roof so no solar is suitable for me, do you think with battery alone it is making financial sense to install one?
Sorry to hear that your roof space doesn’t allow for a useful solar system. As it happens, my next video (out in a few days) will help answer your question… 👍🏻
Hi Gary. After 10 months of solar / battery system use I've decided I need more battery storage. In the summer it was fine & got boosted by excess solar charging during the day. However, now we are in winter my existing 9.5kWh battery runs out around 12 noon - & we don't have a Heat Pump yet. So, now the VAT on battery only installs is being lifted in Feb I'm thinking of adding another 9.5kWh battery (GivEnergy LFP). Problem is I probably also need some more solar panels as well. Battery first & panels later I think to spread the cost. I would also like a bigger Inverter so I can run more than 3.6kW at the same time but that may be a financial step too far for me. If I started from scratch now I would have gone with a GE All In One system but this wasn't around when i had my Gen 2 system installed. Going green ain't cheap!
Do you charge your battery at night using cheaper electricity? I usually have a near full battery in the morning which lasts all day with no problems (GE 8.2 kWh). You could sell me your 9.5kWh battery to part fund your AIO (said with a part tongue in cheek).
Yeah, I would certainly have considered the AIO too, if it had been available. We're still at the stage where going green is really only open to early adopters with cash on hand to fund the hefty up-front costs, but I think that's changing soon... :-)
@@eddyd8745 Hi Eddy. Yes we charge the 9.5 battery at night @7p/kWh during a 6 hour 11.30pm to 5.30am window (Octopus Intelligent Go). When needed the car gets charged overnight as well & we also run time delayed appliances overnight when possible as well. Unfortunately, "management" is a fairly high energy user 🥴. The kettle always seems to on, the floor steamer & carpet washer in constant use to clear up the latest cat accident & the tumble dryer (heat pump now) & washing machine always running - & there's only two of us in the house now!! Consequently our existing 9.5kWh GE battery is not enough (at least in winter). I could add another 9.5kW battery relatively easily (almost plug & play) or, ditch the existing 3.6kW Hybrid Inverter & battery & go for the previously mentioned GE All In One system. Not sure I want the upheaval or extra expense of the AIO plus I probably need to get G99 approval (which could be refused) cos the AIO is 6kW AC output. Apart from the G99 approval, the problem is the AIO has a 13.5kW battery on board which although larger may not be enough for us, especially if we want to ditch our Gas CH & run a Heat Pump at a later date. Extra batteries can be added to the AIO (future option according to GE). We are retired so are home most days so the heating is on during the day & set back at night. Currently gas boiler, rads, HW cylinder with an Eddi for excess solar - not happening in winter. Adding an extra 9.5kW Gen 2 battery to our existing 9.5 gives us a more healthy 19kW of energy storage & for less money than the cost of an AIO - circa £6k (incl VAT currently) without installation cost. An extra 9.5kW battery is circa £3,200 (incl Vat currently) & theoretically we could charge the 2 x 9.5kW batteries within the 6hr cheap rate window overnight. Thanks for the offer but I think I need to think about this a bit more to see what direction I need to go. The problem is by next week something else will have come along to change everything😩
I am happy I added another 3.2 kWh battery last autumn. That now gives us 9.6 kWh. I don’t use it overnight, I just charge it. I get it to kick in around 7am and it lasts until around 9pm. We are planning on getting a heat pump. I am not sure how much that will use on a daily basis. I am waiting until the VAT change and will look at getting another 3.2 kWh battery. It is nice to be able to add on when required.
Thanks for the detailed reply Colin. I'm fortunate, in some respects, that I don't have any unnecessary management fees! 🤣I think that the additional 9.5kWh battery would seem to be the best option for you. Like you I would have gone for an AIO if I were doing the journey again. I'll probably look at getting another battery, probably just an 8.2kWh one, fitted when the VAT gets removed next week. I'm trying desperately not to get dragged into further costs for very little gain, but it is a bit addictive. Regards, Eddy
Thanks for this video. For those who already have a Tesla Powerwall 2 (the AC-coupled one), is there a longevity advantage from getting a 2nd unit due to load-balancing? When they announced the 3rd generation and made it an all-in-one DC battery system that kind of disappointed me. Now I'm wondering if I should expand the setup I have during the first years of my first PW2, or just wait until it fails before thinking about this again.
You're most welcome, Nuno :-) My general view of Tesla is that they seem to know what they're doing - even if some of their moves seem strange at first. The PW2 is the gold standard of home batteries - everyone who has one (or more) seem to love them, they just work, with little or no intervention - and all the other manufacturers are now copying the PW2 specification as a result. I believe the PW3 is actually a move into the mass market, especially for those who cannot or don't want solar. And coincidentally, this is the topic of my next video in fact - battery only solutions :-)
I know I was pretty annoyed by the change in the Powerwall 3 inverter situation. When I had my 18kW solar system installed in 2022, we had to wait a couple years before we could install batteries, and we went with Enphase microinverters for the ease of a future powerwall installation, thinking by then the PW3 would be out and we'd get more bang for the buck. Now it's coming out and our system is completely incompatible.
If you do a video about adding a battery to an existing PV, could you also talk about inverters, AC coupled for those on FiT I think, what are hybrid inverters? Is it the inverter that controls the charge / Discharge? If so might it be worth considering a 5kw inverter with a 8.2 Kw battery, so that you don’t draw from the grid when you turn your electric oven on, or high current devices? That’s
Good video. It would have been nice to see how those global values are reflected in the retail cost of common brands of battery. I’ve not seen big drops in the price of Tesla, GivEnergy batteries for example. Begs the question why?
Hi Gary, I’m still on the fence about adding a battery to my existing system. This week I’m struggling with the hassle and convoluted warranty complications of replacing a SolarEdge inverter for the third (!) time in just over 5 years. I’m so happy I convinced my daughter to go with Enphase micro-inverters. I wish I could go back five years and install a different system configuration. However, I’m happy I went with solar as soon as I moved in to my current house. By rough back of the envelope calculations I have broken even on initial system costs and am now collecting what the economists call “rent” of around $5000 per annum that would otherwise go to SoCal Edison. Reason enough to celebrate.
Hi Richard, that's a pretty good return on your system - fantastic. And sorry to hear about the troubles you had with SolarEdge inverters - crikey! Maybe just waiting maybe 3 months and there will be further prices drops on batteries - enough to persuade you to spend some of those returns on a further ROI? :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar My high ROI was accomplished by a combination of high charges per kilowatt hour and lots of sunshine year-round. I’m prepared with a very reliable electrician who also installs solar to hook me up when I’m ready to proceed with batteries.
Great video Garry, be good to investigate some hard prices. profiteering is stopping progress for example a 5kw pylontec battery costs £1350 in the uk while Alibarba offer it for £560 clearly something badly wrong here and its not just import taxes.
Thanks Alan, and I wish I had more time to be able to investigate this - especially for different regions around the world. I put my trust in an open market though, with healthy competition between suppliers keeping prices in check...
Why do more installers not use product from fogstar? They seem to be so much cheaper than any other supplier and come with an 8 year warranty 🤔 Looking at getting solar and battery installed but i cant find an installer that uses them which makes me.womder if i should get then panels and then buy the battery myself.
I'm not familiar with this product, sorry. You could post a question onto a solar forum (e.g. this one in the UK: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466). Good luck!
Thanks Gary. I am sitting tight until Oct/Nov this year when I will reassess. In the meantime cash is sitting in NS&I at 6.2% which, according to my RoI spreadsheet is more cost effective than the £16K odd solar & battery installation. As internet rates drop and prices likewise the balance might change for the better. It's quite a complex calculation to do if you include the degradation cost of batteries and other parts of the installation and balance against lost opportunity cost and savings on electricity costs.
My pleasure, Mike. A 6.2% rate is pretty good, I have to say, and I can't fault your strategy. Let's see how things pan out over the next 6-12 months :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar yes it was good. I just nipped in before it closed. I am getting 5.2% at the moment with Skipton BS (base rate -0.19%) but this one has closed now as well.
I started my home solar project several months ago. I took the leap and put out a Alibaba RFQ. I ended up going with 4 cube units. 15kw per cube for a total of 60kw. Total price delivered to Houston, TX USA was $7,200. Similar capacity from leading discount US battery suppliers would have been $16,000 to $30,000. My solar consultant working with me on this project would not...could not...believe the price until I tore one of the cubes apart, verified the grade a cells and did a capacity test for him. There are issues with this direct from China strategy. Communication is a challenge. I view any concept of warranty as mostly a suggestion! So it won't be a good choice for everyone, but the larger point...to the title of your video....is the driving force behind all of this will lead to much lower prices once the wave rolls through the larger players and they adjust their prices.
Wow - what an amazing price! And I totally agree with you, it's not about what one single manufacturer does, it's about the effect that this has on all the other manufacturers - problems drive solutions :-)
The really strange thing was that after I'd paid the money, pulled the order trigger....and...keep in mind...it takes about 60 days from China...I have continued to receive quotes....with some of them being 20% lower than the price I paid. I don't regret my choice...at some point you have to either jump in or decide you will never pull the trigger because prices will continue to trend down for a long time in my opinion. In my case I've built my own batteries so I"m comfortable with what I think is an almost "not warranty" choice on my part. If any of the cubes have a problem, it will be me pulling them apart, deciding if it is an individual cell or the bms that is the problem and putting them back into the rotation. I'd also be curious about your stance on "cycles" and depth of charge and discharge. I get guys suggesting you do everything you can to make the battery last 10,000 cycles when it cost 30 or 50,000 dollars. It is far less of an issue if it cost 10,000 dollars. My stance is that if my batteries will last 5,000 cycles (and what does "last" really mean...dead...or just lower capacity at that point in time?) In my case...5,000 cycles is more than 10 years! One...I'll be 75! Two...there will be stuff that is exponentially better and far cheaper. So...I'm aiming at full charge, almost full discharge every day. I still have a discussion to have with you on your views on micro inverters vs string inverters....to be continued on that video or...we'll save it for another day! Love your videos and thoughtful approach to making this whole thing interesting for guys like me. @@GaryDoesSolar
I’d be interested in finding out about the practicality of and obstacles to home batteries and other green tech for flats - no access to solar as they don’t own the roof, often not on gas (storage heaters). I can see it being delayed way past the point it should happen due to freeholders and land lords not paying the bills but withholding permission, and management/right to manage companies dragging their feet as doing anything at all costs money and effort to get agreement among residents with different circumstances. Heat pumps/ev chargers are difficult too for the same reason. My current expectation is that all of it will need to be forced by regulation and grants - shared ground source heat pumps/mhrv , ev chargers on often disconnected parking spaces associated with their owners properties, sensible shared solar installations and removing the ability of landlords/freeholders/insurance companies to block batteries etc. Leasehold may be going away, but a lot of barriers will remain.
You raise a large (and very important topic) - one that I can't answer right now, but I'm soon to make a video on the merits of battery-only installations... a good starting point!
@@GaryDoesSolar Cheers. It would be a shame if people in denser housing - which should be better for the environment all things being equal due to taking up less space and allowing for short distance higher volume public transit - are locked out of other opportunities to limit their carbon emissions for historical structural reasons.
@@GaryDoesSolar Quite an important one Gary. I live in a pretty large Victorian end terrace with a 'beautifully pitched' NNE-SSW facing roof. Guess which side has a bloomin' dormer window? Could probably only get 2 kW on it (3 floors up!)
Panel prices have certainly fallen. But mounting equipment for panels have really shot up in price. My inroof panel adaptors for instance have gone up from £30 to £100. It’s quite shocking considering it’s just moulded plastic!
@@anthonydyer3939 That's crazy eh? I still have faith in the free market though. Other manufacturers of the same, should easily be able to undercut... but only if there is enough competition for such items?
~$9000 US to install in my area. We use ~$90 per month in electricity. For our usage and our age(both early 70's) I just cant justify it even though I love the idea. I think I am going to try for DIY solar install instead. Yeah I know I may not get the benefit of 8-10 yr payback but the fun of installing would be worth it to me! :)
If a Dc coupled battery can can sustain 100% dod but only gets used to 90% discharge maximum but 100% Soc and is only used for 5 months of the year, what would you expect to be the life cycle of the battery to be approximately given that most guarentee 60-70% at 10 years.
Difficult as the answer will surely depend on the manufacturer of the battery and the aggregate performance data of the actual product to date, but my gut feel is that the lifetime would extend by 10% (as you're cycling 10% less than others might be)? You can't avoid calendar aging though, where your battery will surely deteriorate anyway, regardless of its use.
Hi Gary. It would be great if we could use one of the batteries with non Li chemistry for home use. Reducing the demand for Li would likely bring down the price and with it the price of EVs. Besides, having a new boy on the block in the form of batteries with other chemistries would create competition which would also put downward pressure on battery prices. Fortunately, some of these other types of batteries are superior to Li batteries in all but charge per kg. They last a lot longer, can be cycled between 0 and 100% charge with no damage, present no fire risk when being shipped and would be cheaper than Li batteries if they could achieve market share. There are two types of ZnBr batteries, one from Redflow and one from Gelion and a liquid metal battery from Ambri. There are also a range of flow batteries based on V or Fe.
I love it that there are companies all over the world now investing a huge amount of time, money and effort into new battery technologies. The real winners, regardless of which technologies win over each other, are the consumers. In the end, I don't wee really care what happens inside the battery pack, so long as it provides sufficient capacity, longevity, charging and discharging speeds for the intended application(s). I don't think it will be too long before one of the technologies being explored (including the ones that you mention) proves itself worthy... :-)
Ambri batteries operate a 500°C which isn't practical for a home-sized battery. Sodium ion cells started appearing on alibaba at the end of 2023 so we might see home batteries using them in '24 or '25. Enervue's NiH redox-ish battery looks interesting too.
For a Home battery pack weight is normally not much of a problem. My home battery packs consist of 'Old style' deep cycle lead acid cells, set in a rack alongside my house. A well tried technology, that is completely recyclable.
It’s good to see prices falling (and finally the VAT in the UK coming off) for battery installations, but there’s still quite a way for them to fall before they get to being mass-market which we need to be at to drive global energy transition. Eg UK wholesale for a 9.5kW GivEnergy battery peaked at about £4200 last year. It’s now £3200. Ignoring conversion losses and installation prices and at (say) 20p/kW overnight to day electricity rate saving, that’s ~£2 saving per overnight charge cycle. I love my battery and the flexibility it gives me, but it’s still at least 5 years payback, realistically more.
@@rogerphelps9939 absolutely agree. I have a heat pump and it can get through anywhere between 20 and 80kWh in a day depending upon outside temperatures. That's way too much to ever have sufficient battery storage to supply with cheap overnight electricity, nor could I charge it up overnight either. I was using the 9.5 to illustrate how challenging the payback calculation is. In fact at the moment we only have a 5.2kW battery which will see us through most ;but not all) of the peak period. We moved to Octopus agile in October and it's actually working out pretty good, about 18/19p average unit rate. Yes more battery would reduce that further but I'd never get enough storage for every winters day
I am considering a solar/home battery installation here in the UK. Your video says Li-ion batteries now cost $200 per kWh of capacity. Installers are telling me £1000 per kWh capacity. How can these figures be reconciled? Is this more rip-off Britain?
I had noticed via various sites prices for GE batteries coming down. My own 'issue' is our 5k gen 1 GE inverter, which limits max battery draw to 2600w. Being on Octopus Go (8.5p? x 4 HR window) means that during the lean months, all the power / battery slaying loads are ran during that time, and cost pennies. In the worse case scenario, we'd have the Dishwasher, washing machine and heat pump tumbler running in those the cheap window. This costs around 55-70p (tumble dry varies slightly) So even with a cheaper battery (5.2kwh at £2500) we are not going to ever recoup that. Nor can we run both in parallel, so if the above 3 applications needed to run at the same time, we'd still be drawing from the grid during certain periods, granted at cheap rate. Cake and eat it I'd have waited for the Gen 2 and 9.5kwh battery with the max 3600 usage. Still, they where like hens teeth, and my existing system was installed and running in time for the worse UK energy prices in history. The argument for an extra battery to use to fill cheap, sell high may have merit, but thats subjective and affected by each households usage patterns
Hi Stuart, thanks for the insightful comment. I have a Gen2 GivEnergy battery and even with a 3.6kW discharge, I'm finding it difficult to keep the house load under that - especially around peak times! I think the solution really is where Tesla (and hopefully others) are taking us with the new Powerwall 3 - an >11kW discharge rate... Hopefully, you'll see from the video that in a few years, price won't be anywhere near as much of an issue as it has been in recent times.
@@GaryDoesSolar I think the trick once the honeymoon period ends is to not fret too much, especially during main evening meal periods! I was semi tempted by the Givenergy All in One, but even that can only sustain peak loads of around 7kwh for very short periods. My parents touted buying my system from me, which would have offset the cost / trade in, but they're still on the fence, and I'm not unhappy with what we ended up with. Good video as ever!
I plumped for the Alpha Smile 5 ESS with a nominal 5kw discharge (actually less than that , depending on temperature). Brilliant bit of kit , it very very rarely can't cope with the house load (PV generation added on top of course which is a bonus in the summer) We are totally electric now , heat pump , cooking , cars etc. All together our electric bill for December was £125. It should be all paid back by 2030.
@@stuartburns8657 I think doing it again and 1 year on I would try and get a system which better integrates with everything else going on in the house. I think GivEnergy and Myenergi are going down that route. But you can wait forever for a perfect system!
My battery cost 20,000 pounds, it is called an MG4. Put in a CEE socket, run some 2.5mm2, 63a change over switch. My provider gives me 3 hours of power free at night, thats 20kwh. I only use 8kwh per day. So plenty to drive and power house at peak times. Cook with gas so peak load is kettle and toaster together 3,000 watts max. Yes installed by a certified electrician here in NZ.
There is an argument that the grid acts as a giant battery and your utility should pay an encouraging price for your surplus to prevent you from running for a home battery. We already have batteries in our EVs so do we want to dig up more land for more batteries??
There are certainly so-called net-metering tariffs around the word, where exported energy is the same price as imported energy, and in that respect, the grid acts like an infinite battery. But... my understanding is that these tariffs are slowly disappearing. Take Australia for example, between 10am and 3pm, the grid absolutely does not want exported solar - and so only pay a few cents/kWh for it. That said, it's not something I've had time to research properly yet, but I would like to understand the long term effect of such tariffs... I'm of the view that the world needs a lot more batteries than it has, because batteries are great at levelling out the spikiness of wind and solar. Finally, if the batteries are sodium-ion, we may not need to do that much digging...
Been some reports by home insurance and Rightmove that show the value of your house goes up by the same amount of more the cost of the fitted solar system. And homes with solar also sell faster. I spent 15k on my new system. And with the value increase of my home I got my money back instantly.
Great to hear, and I’m not surprised, Richard 👍🏻 All you need to do when selling your home is show prospective buyers the savings they’ll achieve… easy argument to show increased value!
I'd be like a shot Gary if Octopus offered a battery only tariff eg with no linkable export option. My roof is awkward for solar and currently I'm getting on well with Agile though the 16.00 - 19.00 peak is obviously a major inconvenience. GiveEnergy AIO would be my preference but they have no automation with Agile, only Go. I've even thought about buying a small used EV to gain access but, in old speak, that's maybe putting the cart before the horse. Your videos are really helping to drive the revolution though - well done!
@@GaryDoesSolar Thank you Gary, we'll see I guess. I keep nudging Octopus but they tell me to use ones I don't qualify for. Innovation would most probably tip me over.
Have a look at the open source home assistant software and BottleCapDave's plug in for Octopus. This allows you to set up target rate sensors for the cheapest or most expensive periods of the day - however long you want. So you could get to say, 1600, see how much juice you have in the battery, then decide to export for one hour at the best price over the next three hours. Or export for two hours if you have more juice in the battery. Or don't export at all if you don't have much left. So far I have this working the other way around with my hot water immersion, i.e. heat water at the cheapest three hours of the day. Admittedly that is a much simpler problem to solve. I'm planning a givenergy all in one and am pretty sure I can get a reasonably optimised export strategy setup this way. I live in a flat so no solar for me. Another thought is prioritising export for octoplus saving sessions might be best financially (and environmentally?) Dave's integration reports those sessions, too. The octopus APIs are brilliant, they are a proper tech company.
@@cad4246 thank you for this. My knowledge of HA is zero sadly and my wife's even less. I've seen in one of Gary's later videos that there is a paid service which would achieve broadly similar but with less potential to finesse. I'm sold on the battery and I like Agile but the control {and learning curve) concerns me. Perhaps I just may delay and hope GE decide to improve their native automations - but I'm not holding my breath. I do very much appreciate your help though, thank you!
Gary, early adapters are important because they enable the innovation and production scales that drive prices down for the rest of us! Next, developing affordable home and small business-scale batteries is essential to driving wider adoption of solar and EVs. We basically need a 50 kWh battery for $10,000 US.
I completely agree, and thankfully, there are plenty early adopters, to make all this happen. And with an expected 11% decrease in prices expected per year, and the impact of inflation, a 50kWh for $10,000 is maybe closer than you think :-)
@@marjanklaver6669 That's quite e a general question as there are a lot of factors involved, including amount of sun, daily energy usage profile, size and output of the battery and the smart tariff you're on. That's why I developed this model, so that people can set it up for their own particular circumstances to see how much they could save - let's say over a 10-year warranted battery lifespan). garydoessolar.com/utilities/dailymodellingutility/
From reports I saw late last year the Chinese already have LFP production costs below $90/kWh now. And CATL and others are now ramping production of the Sodium batteries. The great thing is that they can be substituted into existing manufacturing processes supposedly so they don't need to retool just fine tune the processes for the new materials.
Yeah, and I made mention of this in my latest video (just uploaded) - such great news! And I think the battery revolution is coming quicker than maybe people thought! :-)
Something to consider as well is lithium metal batteries like the ones being developed by Quantumscape. Their tech ensure only tiny degradation over 800+ cycles so the value proposition improves as higher effectiveness is maintained for many years.
I'm waiting on the new Fogstar 15.5kWh battery. It still seems too cheap to be true. It's literally half the price per kWh of the popular Givenergy one many people choose. Ps what was wrong with your camera Gary? You were very blurry today! 😄
That sounds like a great deal you got. Would love to hear how you get on with it. Yeah, sorry about the lack of focus - there are so many things that have to go right for a successful recording, and some of those (things (audio, video) you don't really get to review until after it's all done. My New Years Resolution then is to get better at that! Ha! :-)
Great stuff. And I’m hearing that CATL (who manufacture a third of the world’s li-ion batteries) is cutting prices even further this year! Bring it on 👍🏻
Im super keen for sodium ion batteries to reach market maturity. In MHO, they are a no brainer for home storage. Yes they’re not quite as energy dense as lithium ion batteries, however given the lower need for thermal regulation in them packs, the overall pack size is relatively similar. If these are rolled out on mass, that would reduce the demand on lithium ion batteries and save those for EV’s
Yeah, I wasn't really away of them until I researched for the video. I'm definitely keeping an eye on the technology now, as for stationary storage at least, it looks to be a real winner. I just love how scientists and engineers keep on pushing the boundaries... I mean it's essentially just salt! :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar Well, salt is technically any base reacted with an acid. But yes, sodium is in “common” salt. The thing I find disheartening is that sodium based batteries seem to be this new amazing technology when that’s the technology route we should have gone down decades ago. Instead, millions of acres of habitats and ecosystems have been torn apart and polluted just to refine a few grams from tonnes.
@@oliverpolden Great point, Oliver - I should have said "common salt" 😃 Yeah, sometimes certain technologies find it hard to get the limelight (and therefore funding)... it looks like Sodium-ion is soon to have its day though!
I installed 10 MW batteries over a year ago into our solar panel system which cost me £5k and as the bank were giving me 🖕 as interest it was money well spent and once I had economy 7 set up it was a win win half price lecie on cloudy days in winter and free of charge in the summer or even in cloud free winter days. As the country is obsessed with net zero solar panels and battery systems should be a legal requirement in all newbuilds with each building required to have south facing roof panels....or I am I an optimist
Great new about your batteries (although I'm using 10kW, not 10MW - unless you're also running a small power station??) I agree on new build houses - there are no excuses not to do this - I mean, even if was one of the options offered by manufacturers to buyers, I'd imagine most would go for it, such is the general availability of information today...
Here in the states used to be a big push to use electric power during off-peak time. I thought about building an inverter and battery system to shift power during off peak. I notice 2/3 of my bill was fees and tax. Didn't really matter how much I shifted they made it so not cost effective. It's hard to compete with building out a solar battery system that capable of 48k watts of perfect 60 cycle power. Essentially have to be able to produce at least 2/3 of that power instantly for several hours to completely shift off grid. Grid tied system they have so many regulations price is pushed very high. Maybe someday in the future it will change with prices falling.
Believe it or not, for some people your statement that home batteries can save you money isn’t true. Where I live almost all our electricity is from hydroelectric, and the tariff is the same in the middle of the day vs. the middle of the night. That also means our grid is not significantly greener at night than during the day. Just an FYI that making a broad statement for a global audience will almost always mean there are exceptions! :-) But I still want a home battery, for power outages. It’s just harder to justify when that’s the only benefit!
But even where you live, people can still save money with batteries by storing excess solar generation, for use later on instead of pulling from the grid?
I purchased a givenergy all in one the day they announced that they are dropping the Vat tax in Feb. I wish I could claim back the VAT. But on to up side its a great system.
@@GaryDoesSolar Unfortunately its installed and I doubt this Gov will allow claims before February on the Vat. Ho Hum. Thanks for the information though and this is a great channel.
If you have a heat pump, which a lot of us will in not so many years, home batteries will not work very well. The problem is that the heat pump must be on all day when, if you have an off peak tariff, you will be paying extra for your electricity. You might think that you could charge the battery after midnight and before say, 5 am, on off peak electricity but during the depths of winter the amount of energy used by a heat pump will exceed the capacity of most batteries by a very large margin.
Hi Roger, I don't agree with this, sorry. The benefit of a home battery is that you can buy energy cheap overnight, then use later to avoid drawing from the grid at a higher import rate. It doesn't matter if you use it to power a heat pump or any other appliance in the home - it's still cheaper energy.
WHilst I was watching this video, on the right of my screen there were 3 youtube videos showing prices had gone up and 1 that prices had dropped. Its as bad as EVs one video says sales are dropping and another sales are increasing...
Yeah, there’s certainly a lot of misinformation going around. And that’s why I try to ground what I cover in my videos with reliable sources 👍🏻 Overall, it always pays to shop around…
Interesting announcement. I contacted my local supplier for batteries and was told that it only applied to installation not to batteries! I contacted another supplier and they clarified that the battery would have to be supplied by an installer who would not charge VAT and who would reclaim the VAT. So, again, the government screws the consumer who wants to add a battery. If the technology is zero-rated, it should be zero-rated for everyone!
So my understanding is that the VAT relief is only available on an installed battery (by a professional installer) and it would be on the cost of the battery and the cost of installation combined. Of course the installer would need to be VAT registered as well for the relief to apply. Definitely worth shopping around (as you are indeed doing). Good luck! 🤞🏼
Why aren’t Sodium batteries being used pervasively for static storage? Sodium is so much more abundant and easier to source than lithium. It’s also apparently safer than lithium. It’s almost a no brainer for home energy storage yet it’s apparently a “new” and emerging technology when we’ve had lithium ion batteries for 30+ years.
I think there are still some aspects to be proven, for example, longevity and reliability. I'm sure it won't be long though before it's used widely for at least stationary storage :-)
Yeah, sorry about that. I’ve no idea what happened. I use an old iPhone XE to record my videos and I must have pressed the wrong button - and of course I didn’t notice until I’d finished recording. My New Year’s resolution is now to carefully check the video settings three times before I record! 🤣👍🏻
The next biggy is energy density. If you could get say a 40 kWh battery for the same price as a 13.5 kWh battery AND the same size, you also have a big battery for a heat pump A biggy is shipping weight (which also means that the factory has to have a bigger factory and therefore higher rent or be limited to fewer batteries per day) It'd be interesting if say batteries ever become as small a UPS even if it's just for 1 or 2 kWh worth of power. My parents have a small UPS in Pakistan. Everything stops working in a power cut except the fans. The power cuts usually last just one hour or so. The average middle class (by the American definition) Pakistani person can afford a UPS but not solar + batteries, especially as the cost of water to clean the solar panels can be quite high too. That's definitely be interesting. Right now, UPS' in the domestic market, are typically a thing in the global south instead of the global north. With batteries, it's the opposite currently but it could mean that everyone will have batteries in due course. That would go a long way to help people everywhere given heat can be a real killer
I like your thinking on this. There's definitely a burgeoning market for all sizes of batteries for all manner of applications around round. I like it! :-)
Good video but also (UK only I know) in Feb batteries should have 0 vat, that is likely to either depress (I hope) or maybe slightly increase (profit taking) batteries for Uk shipping. We arw considering adding another 10kwh of storage post getting a heat pump as the economics seem to work out.
Hi John, yeah - the expected change in legislation on battery-only installations in the UK is very welcome! It's true that some manufacturers will try to use this as an opportunity to increase their profits (by not passing on the VAT cut) but that behaviour generally only works in established markets. The consumer solar market is nowhere near mature yet, and with so many new entrants (who will absolutely pass on those savings to secure a share of the market) I'm not too worried - the incumbents will follow, if only to preserve their current share of the market :-) Hope things are going well with your heat pump. I want to get one at some point, so researching as much as I can at the moment. Agreed, a bigger battery can only help!
@@michaelheathcote9488 Hi Michael, as you're looking at the sums, here is a sneak preview to a free utility I'll be releasing soon - let me know what you think: garydoessolar.com/utilities/batarazma/ 👍
@@GaryDoesSolarthat’s pretty good. It’d be nice if the before tariff could have a night rate too (e.g econ 7). Tbf these kinds of calculators should also include cost of funding ie the interest you are still paying from the capital expense or interest not earned via alternative investment - though a lot of the time for consumers that can be zero due to leaving in current accounts etc…
@@rjScubaSki Thanks for the feedback. My plan is to make a Pro version of the same, with additional features - I'll add your suggestions to the list - cheers 🙂
Ok, ok, fair comment! In my (weak) defence, I was trying to be funny :-) The truth is that whilst it is technically possible to make sodium-ion batteries using sea water, it's far from efficient. There are much better sources - here's what ChatGPT4 said: Sourcing sodium compounds for sodium-ion batteries typically involves obtaining purified and high-quality sodium compounds suitable for battery production. The best and easiest sources of sodium compounds for sodium-ion batteries include: Sodium Carbonate (Soda Ash): Sodium carbonate (Na2CO3), commonly known as soda ash, is a readily available source of sodium. It is used in industries such as glass manufacturing and can be processed to obtain high-purity sodium carbonate for battery production. Sodium Sulfide (Na2S): Sodium sulfide is another sodium compound used in some battery technologies. It can be produced from sodium chloride (table salt) and hydrogen sulfide (H2S) gas through chemical reactions. Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic Soda): Sodium hydroxide (NaOH), also known as caustic soda, is a strong base and a potential source of sodium for battery applications. It is widely used in the chemical industry and can be produced through the chlor-alkali process. Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3): Sodium nitrate is a sodium compound that can be used in some battery chemistries. It is commonly found as a mineral called nitratine. Sodium Phosphate (Various Forms): Different forms of sodium phosphate, such as sodium iron phosphate, can be used in specific types of sodium-ion batteries. These compounds can be synthesized or obtained from certain minerals. ...
The other benefit is that this lessens the peak load for power providers. Power providers should incentivize batteries, as well as solar. Plus for the consumer, you get some backup.
I can't see how sodium batteries will replace lithium for EV's due to the extra weight......but I'm sure a technology will come that will. Sodium batteries, on the other hand, are very likely to replace lithium for fixed in place batteries where space & weight are not a concern......however.....a better technology will likely cancel sodium as well. Bright future for new energy and new energy storage :)
@@GaryDoesSolar Not contentious at all. Ive had quotes for solar, payback on battery's was minimum 17 years - far better off paying the $ off my mortgage. would you like a copy of the quotes?
@@timorumThanks for coming back to me on this. The problem I’ve got is that your statement was a blanket one - that solar was not financially viable - yet, the data you’ve presented to support that is a set of just one example (you). Not very scientific.
@@GaryDoesSolar Perhaps it is my example but its had to see how a different example would change the sums enough to make is remotely viable. Happy to send you my quotes and powerbill to do the math.
@@timorum I'm sorry, but you're missing the point. I don't doubt that you in particular have not been able to save money using solar as you claim (so no need to send documentation). But that's a data sample of 1, and from such a small sample size, that you cannot conclude it's impossible for anyone else to save money. Therefore, your generic statement, "save money absolutely not", cannot be backed up with data. Do you not see this??
It’s a con if batteries were vat free they would be zero rated so everyone could shop around buy their own then get a sparky to fit them . But no unfortunately
There's a chance we might get to that point in the next 12-24 months, but what's stopping you contracting the battery purchase and installation work with your electrician, who can then reclaim the VAT? I don't see any con happening here. Irrespective, the chart I showed in the video show that battery prices are expected to fall 11% year on year. What's not to like?
Because nearly everyone wants to make money out of the materials they supply it is not giving everyone the opportunity to search for the best price. Vat free is vat free zero rated is what it says zero rated for every body.
How about second hand EV batteries that are still at 90% capacity. They should be way cheaper. An old ZOE 30 kWh battery can be had for as cheap as £3000.
Completely agree - I reckon there will be a huge consumer market for second-hand batteries. In fact, that is needed to support increased new purchases as well 👍🏻 bring it on!
Not only was all pricing ridiculous a year ago, but I was shaking my head at the amount of cowboy installations taking place. Even the best professional electrical contractors have learned a lot since then so going forwards should be cheaper and safer.
If we were really concerned about efficiency and price we wouldnt sell batteries and solar to individuals, we would have massive utility scale batteries (using cheap materials like redox flow, or thermal batteries) and solar arrays. The same is true for transportation. Socialized fleets are much cheaper than privatized ones. Cars are parked 95% of the time. If we socialized the fleet, we could reduced its size by 85% and still have a huge surplus of cars.
I’d argue the reality of it is that both are happening at the same time. Nothing wrong with that. Many people prefer to have their own battery storage to protect them from blackouts.
Any power suppliers giving an off-peak "battery charging" rate like a rate they have a EV rate? At the moment, my off peak rate is not that much cheaper than the peak rate
Worth looking at Octopus Energy for very good off-peak rates, particularly Flux and Agile tariffs. Even better if you have an EV - look at Go and Intelligent Go tariffs 👍🏻
It’s all still Li-ion. I think the installed base is mainly NMC, but for new home battery sales today, It’s predominantly LFP due to lower pricing and increased safety.
Lithium is one of the most common elements on Earth, every Country has it, where I live my State has more than enough Lithium to meet demands, if they ever bother to mine it, but Batteries are moving away from Lithium and therefore won't be an issue any way, most new cars are using the new battery tech already as the Lithium Ion Batteries had a bad habit of going up in flames if pierced or overcharged as many found out with their E Scooter or Hover Board going up in flames.
I put in solar and a Power Wall four years ago for $17k. I have been making about $250/yr for my excess power instead of spending about $600-$750/yr. I got the solar panels to save money and be more environmentally conscious. I got the Power Wall because with wildfires here in California our power was suppose to much less reliable. Well I haven’t had my power go out once since I had solar and battery installed.
That's a great return - thanks for sharing, Matthew. There are some people out there that are still arguing solar is not financially worth it. Your experience, together with many others, show it can.
The home battery prices are insane compared to EV's. You can buy a 90kwh car with the price of 40kwh home battery. And a car is bit more then only the battery. Makes no sense.
Actually, with the right import tariff AND the right export tariff, it's financially better to charge up your battery off peak at 7.5p/kWh and export your PV at 15p/kWk
The analysis I carried out in my recent battery ROI videos didn’t show that. I found that it’s always better to self-consume the battery energy than export (import price saved > export price made)
In a mature market, that can certainly (and does) happen, but luckily, the solar and battery market is still immature - and because of that, incumbents can easily be replaced by new upstarts, and those upstarts have no choice really, *but* to pass the cost savings on, IMHO
A hybrid inverter is required for DC Coupled batteries. AC Coupled batteries have their own inverter or charge controller. See here: ruclips.net/video/x83t1iCMXxw/видео.html
@@GaryDoesSolar thanks, did order Powerwall some years ago but still no Powerwalls in Sweden. And as we have DC/AC inverter’s already seems like AC batteries is the best choose for us.
SOLAR 'GRID TIE'. TWO METERS, GOING FORWARD ONE GOING BACKWARD. BILLING MONTH. IF METER GOING BACKWARD DOES NOT EXCEEDS METER GOING FORWARD, NO ELECTRICITY USED.. FOR 15 YEARS NO BATTERIES ELECTRIC BILL ZERO. WHEN ELECTRICITY GOES OUT, PLUG TESLA CYBER TRUCK 123KWH BATTERY INTO HOME. MAINTAINS HOME FOR 5 DAYS.
Saving $200 a month while spending $20K for batteries is not a good use of money; and you’re spending another $30K for solar panels. If the overall cost can be reduced by 50%, then it’s worthwhile to consider.
Depressing news from the Northvolt people. They're scaling back production of their sodium batteries because, reportedly, the EV manufacturers have not been receptive enough. This is just baffling: who cares about EVs? Cheaper home microgrids should be their target.
WTF. The title states prices are falling, but all you provide is a speculative projection into the future which might or might not be right.... ugh, really?
I presented two charts from reputable sources that show prices have literally fallen and are expected to continue falling according to analyst projections (i.e. those in the know). What more do you want?
@@GaryDoesSolar We’ll have to see how this plays out but there are places that are trying to phase out natural gas and propane etc. in favor of all electric based homes. Same thing applies to gas and EV’s.
Batteries do not save carbon unless you manage them specifically to do so, and currently there is no simple method to do that. Managing them to save money is the best you can do, and this typically increases your carbon footprint. All the studies that I found came to this conclusion. I am not against batteries (I have some) but we should be honest about the benefits.
Sorry, but I don't agree. Batteries are to all intents and purposes 100% recyclable, so you can discount any carbon deficit there. And if, throughout the year, I can routinely consume excess solar generation from earlier in the day during the peak period, when marginal national generation is fossil fuel burning, the carbon credit is huge. And when you add in DFS opportunities, the carbon credit is even higher.
Plus the guff about carbon intensity is mostly just greenwashing. Unless your supply is 100% green, any additional demand can only be met by increasing fossil fuelled generation.
@@GaryDoesSolar Recycling: Recycled materials sometimes have higher embodied carbon than virgin materials. So a new battery from recycled materials may well have higher embodied carbon than one from virgin materials. It certainly isn't zero. Storing solar: true but only if there is a large difference in the marginal carbon intensity of the grid between when you are charging your battery and when you use it; if the marginal fuel source is gas in both cases, it is better (saves more carbon) to export not store. DFS: Don't know what this is so can't comment. I really am not knocking batteries just pointing out that according to the studies merely having a battery does not automatically reduce carbon, you have to actively manage it. A TOU tariff like Agile is probably the best way to go at the moment, since presumably there is a strong relationship between the spot price and marginal carbon intensity. Perhaps Octopus should introduce an Agile-Carbon tariff?
Feb 2024 - yes, and it's great to see. And should pave the way for more people to make the jump to a sustainable future. I'll be making a video shortly on battery-only installations...
This is great news for customers and installers alike! The more affordable these systems are the more people can benefit from them. We are seeing a huge surge in demand since the announcement of 0% VAT from Feb.
Agreed - and I think with the continued fall in battery prices, the decision to get into renewables will soon become a no-brainer, even for those who can't (or don't want to) have solar panels. All the best for 2024!
Will you be passing the saving directly onto customers?
I did not know about the vat reduction. Thank you! I'm in a flat so no solar for me. I was considering a givenergy all in one. Even more so now!
From 1 Feb 2024 batteries bought separately from panels will also be VAT free (in UK)👍
Yeah, it's great to see the government fixing what was a recognised omission from the scheme. And I have a video on battery-only installations coming up soon! :-)
Yes that was a big factor when I had my system installed. Waiting to add batteries after the initial install would’ve meant they would’ve cost 20% more. Glad to see that changes in Feb 👍
Nice!
Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
Wow didn’t know that I will have to look into that thanks for the info.
Really useful video as ever, thanks for all of them. I have solar and a battery currently and was going to increase storage capacity by buying another (different manufacturer's) battery. Cannot do that however because I cannot see how to stop them fighting each other for charge and discharge. Could I put in a plea for a video for non-techies on off the shelf control systems for different installations? Thanks again Gary.
Thanks for the great feedback. Yeah, for control systems covering multiple manufacturers' products, the only game in town is Home Assistant as far as I can see... Luckily, there are many channels covering that; not least, Speak To The Geek: ruclips.net/channel/UC25zb7Sojh4KUv5CsFYH-6Q
A factor that often gets overlooked is the uninterrupted power during power outages on the grid. Keeping refrigerators and medical equipment running is hard to put a price on. Also the pure sine wave from the inverter protects sensitive electronics during brownout.
Totally agree, and, as it happens, I’m talking about this in my next video, all about battery-only installations 👍🏻
But beware…. Customers should not presume that their solar / battery installation comes with this capability “out of the box”. Most don’t unless specifically requested - due to additional expense of switchover wiring and whole house earth-spike. I.E. this feature relies on more than just inverter capability as I found out when my (GivEnergy) installation was being commissioned. Customers interested in this capability need to specifically ask about this feature before installation starts.
@@beillynoy Good point, and one that I'll pick up on in that video - thanks!
not an option where i live, you can not produce in "island operation" its not allowed do to safety they say. we almost never have blackout and brownout is never happening.
That might be OK in the US where I understand you have crap grid reliability but it is not as simple as that. Here in the UK any grid tied system must shut down when there is a power cut. This is because, when the power is restored the connected equipment must output power that is in phase with the grid. If that does not happen huge currents will flow accompanied by instant blowing of the main supply fuse.
Another Super video, I’ve learned a tremendous amount from your videos. So much so I’ve just signed up to become a Patreon member as a way of saying thanks for all the excellent content and info sharing and also to help me figure out what solar and battery installation I should invest in over the next few months. 🤞
Hi Olaf, thank you so much for your kind words, and also signing up to my Patreon - that's very much appreciated and I hope my content is able to provide the information you need :-)
Took the plunge last year with a 6.5 kWh home battery and it’s saved me £600 already. Well on track to pay back in year 6. Best investment I’ve done in a long time.
This is great to hear, Alistair - thanks for sharing! It's still a big purchase so experiences like you're having will help people make the decision :-)
10k in bitcoin 12 months ago would of made ya 16.5k profit 🎁
@@Dale-11 But that would have been a gamble, the 600 pound saving on the electricity bill was a cast iron guaranteed amount of cash in the pocket.
@@andrewallen9993 gamble no, risk investment yes like all trading, I've got battery and solar nice little savings per year but best investment definitely not.
Most batteries will approach end of cycle life 6-10years. No the best of investments to be fair
Excellent video again Garry. The level of research you must use to get all your data is very impressive. It’s nice to see someone who backs up their reasoning with solid market analysis and not just gut reactions.
Thanks Dominic! 😀 Yeah, it’s a lot more effort, but well worth it - too much misinformation out there!
Hi Gary,
I'm always impressed how tidy your office is. It looks like a really nice place 👍
Haha! If only that *were* my office! My real office (behind the green screen) is not as tidy - studio lights, cables and papers everywhere! 🤣
We are looking at solar in the near future as we have our 1st ev on order 5 months waiting list and this got me thinking charge a battery on cheaper off peek and be able to charge the eV faster and when ever suits with dc charge also a video you could make is ev to home using the ev as the bank you take with you. I'm unsure if the ev we have on order dose ev to home power (it's the vw group 2024 update id4 id5 q4 skoda enyaq) enyaq semas to be the better deal (bigger boot and more toys for similar price point of) but to charge a ev fully I'm going to need a decent home battery 😵
Yeah, I plan to make a video all about V2G/V2H technology at some point. I'm not sure it replaces a home battery but it compliments it very well.
@GaryDoesSolar would this work? I run a 7.9 turbo diesel compressor on a daily basis for work it's all factored into the cost of the job so basically free to charge a dc battery off the alternator what sort of kwh would 150amp on say 8 hours charge achive? I have enough room on the truck etc just firing ideas out I like the idea of being able to harvest power from energy I'm getting paid to use 😏
Good afternoon, thank You for informative video. As an electrical engineer and a professional in the area (home and business installations) I can confirm and endorse the sense of batteries. It can not only save money, but I see it as integral part of "system service". Every hybrid installation with batteries alleviates load / production spikes presented to grid what helps stability of the grid. Home battery helps you cover day / night cycles and in connection with "virtual battery" helps cover seasonal changes. In Slovakia, where I am from, it in practice does not make sense to charge battery at night and discharge during peak load, because electricity price difference between peak and offpeak are less than amortization of the battery per kWh. According to current prices any my calculation one has to account for cca 10 eurocents / pences for each kWh stored and withdrawn from the physical battery.
Hi Adrian, you're most welcome - and thanks for the insight into the Slovakian market - very useful. Here's a utility that I'll be releasing soon, which you might like to try, in order to test if there is an ROI for a battery (only) solution: garydoessolar.com/utilities/batarazma/
@@GaryDoesSolar Thank You Gary for reply. I consider spreading awareness as 50% of our work. To give You an insight into central-european prices for homes (not businesses!). We usually (I mean Slovakia, Czech republic to a certain degree) have 2 tarrif bands - peak and off-peak. Price consists of electricity price and system service price per kWh. So neglecting monthly fixed fee for connection point we have two components of price per kWh: constant "service price of electricity delivery per kWh" and variable "peak or off-peak electricity price per kWh". "Service price of electricity delivery per kWh" is around 7-9 eurocents. Prices for homes are heavily subsidized resulting in "peak or off-peak electricity price per kWh" being in range of 6-11 eurocents. So practically we have electricity for about 16-20 eurocents per kWh. 4eurocent difference does not pay itself when you need to account for around 10eurocents per kWh of battery amortization. I see these subsidies causing an issue of wider adoption or motivation into investments of homeowners into such systems, as economically from an individual homeowner perspective they do not pay off sooner than in 10 years.
However i see this as part of "one's critical infrastructure". It is not about just price of electricity, but about services as well. With your own battery you have basically UPS for your whole house. When more people work from home, suddenly it makes more sense for those people to have this perspective on the topic, but again, we are speaking of not very large group of people to whom this matters.
Businesses however pay around 40 eurocents per kWh, but are facing more beraucracy from the state, so overall PV energy adoption is slower than it could be.
@@Adrian-foto Cheers for the extra detail, Adrian - much appreciated. Yeah, bureaucracy is always going to be a problem - that really needs to be fixed first in order to drive adoption.
Based on the figures i have, the heat pump is averaging 30kwh a day for november and december. Jan is coming out broadly the same when i exclude what the 10kw pv array is producing. I am looking to collect more data but moving from 21kwh to 30kwh of storage should meet the requirements for nov and jan. We will end up importing peak a bit in December, but importing peak 1 month out of the year is something i can cope with
That sounds like a pragmatic approach. I'd love to hear if it pans out as you expect because I'm looking to get a heat pump myself at some point - thanks! Feel free to email me@GaryDoesSolar.com if you prefer not to comment here...
My Wife and I have saved over $40,000 over the last 12 years by getting Solar panels and Solar Hot water.
Our Gas was going up each year to the point we were paying near on $300 a quarter and Electric we were a little over $300 a Quarter, so a saving of $2400 a year, plus the $2000+ we got back from Solar credits.
That's brilliant - thanks for sharing!
Could you possibly show examples of actual purchase prices of home batteries. It's wonderful to know prices are coming down for manufacturers to below $150/kwh but what is the retail cost? I can't find a prebuilt ESS for less than around $250/kwh here in the States. I could build one for around $185 or $200 but it wouldn't be legal to install in my home. Thank you.
I wish I had more time, and I'd be able to do this, especially for different regions around the world. But I trust in an open market, that healthy competition between suppliers will keep prices in check...
Hi Gary, I was wondering if you are planning on researching V2L vehicles. I was trying to find information on this new approach to energy storage. Im not sure if im wrong buy it makes sense to me to instead of buying an expensive home battery would it be better using that money to buy a vehicle that has V2L capability. Also by looking to the batteries size it seems that it is a better deal per KWh.
Hi there Joan - yeah, a video on this is definitely on the cards. Being able to make use of a large battery asset that is sitting on your drive a large percentage of the time has to afford benefits in principle, but I want to understand better what the downsides might be as well. And the trouble I've got is that currently, there's not enough real-world experience of V2G/V2H yet, which I'd want to study. I'll keep an eye on how the market evolves - thanks for raising!
I have a car with V2L capability and I was looking for a way to use that facility to act as a battery for my house. Those electricians I have spoken to suggest that using the battery to supply my house is currently not possible as the frequencies from the battery and the mains are likely to be different. Yes I could use the facility on a standalone basis to power a kettle or some other appliance but not as the equivalent as a home battery. They all basically said wait for V2G technology which ( hopefully) will be coming next year ( or later this year 2024) with a two way vehicle charger. If anyone has successfully used the V2L to supply their house, ( and not just as a stand-alone system) I would be interested to hear and what technology they have used.
@@peterjones6640 i foumd a RUclipsr that is using his MG4 to store energy at low peak and reselling it back to the grid at high prices
It's currently pretty hard to use a car as a home battery. There are two main issues: 1. the car's inverter isn't designed to accurately match the frequency and phase of the grid - it's not a 'grid tied inverter'. 2. the car doesn't know how much power to produce. A home battery usually has a device to monitor how power flow between the house and the grid.
Until there are standards for this, built into most cars, V2G systems need to use an external inverter connected to the car's DC rapid charge port. That makes them big and expensive.
@@robinbennett5994the idea is to transfer energy from the car battery to the home battery at a constant rate and let the home inverter control the consumption of the house but to only draw power from the home battery. This way the car battery only have to deal with the recharging of the home battery at one constant load is like going on the motor way if this makes sense
Is it possible to use old Nissan Leaf batteries for storage?
I heard that all Nissan Leaf models from 2013 onwards are approved for use with the FE-15 bidirectional charger (V2G). If that's the case, then those models can be used as home battery storage whilst connected.
Hi Gary. I started out installing solar and batteries (and an EV) in an effort to reduce greenhouse gases. Unfortunately, the financial advantages of always using cheaper electricity to fill the batteries every night and then being able to export excess solar at twice the price is difficult to resist (I don't, resist that is). The added incentive to export in saving sessions also results in a huge financial gain. At the moment, I can easily handle a one hour session but the temptation to buy another battery to handle two hours is becoming too great. I can just about justify another battery on the grounds that we wouldn't need to load shift washing machine, dishwasher, etc.. (We have a heat pump dryer which we don't load shift to avoid taking two days to do a load of washing!). Feb 1st makes the purchase more likely.
Sounds great - and actually, I'd argue that by exercising your batteries as you do you're reducing greenhouse gases even more, as the grid doesn't need to burn as much marginal generation fuel :-)
If you are on the FIT scheme your generation meter must be solely connected to your solar inverter.
I am all for looking after the environment , however when singing the praises of solar, battery and wind we only look at a fraction of the story. When you look at the whole picture none of these products are as environmentally friendly as they are being projected . Lets not fool ourselves, those singing the loudest are normally the ones who are profiting, the damage being done to the environment to produce the so called environmentally friendly products are totally ignored. A classic example of this is Ethanol being put into petrol to clean up the emission , totally ignoring the fact that it takes 9.3 lts of dirty Diesel to produce 1ltr of ethanol, not everything is as green as we are being told.
I think sodium ion or some form of flow battery will win out for home batteries where weight and space are not limiting factors. They just need to come online. Manufacturing capacity not there yet for this market segment.
Yeah, it's going to be an interesting year for batteries, I reckon :-)
Thanks Gary. Much appreciated. I purchased my system buying only A small 5.1 kWh battery. This was in hope of this trend happening that you talk about. Now that VAT is going on batteries from February and this year is probably an election year I will keep my eyes open for an opportunity to enlarge my system.
Sounds good Peter - I’d be interested to hear how things go 👍🏻
my roof were totoally no suitable for solar two gable on southish facing side and other part is north facing roof so no solar is suitable for me, do you think with battery alone it is making financial sense to install one?
Sorry to hear that your roof space doesn’t allow for a useful solar system. As it happens, my next video (out in a few days) will help answer your question… 👍🏻
Hi Gary. After 10 months of solar / battery system use I've decided I need more battery storage. In the summer it was fine & got boosted by excess solar charging during the day. However, now we are in winter my existing 9.5kWh battery runs out around 12 noon - & we don't have a Heat Pump yet. So, now the VAT on battery only installs is being lifted in Feb I'm thinking of adding another 9.5kWh battery (GivEnergy LFP). Problem is I probably also need some more solar panels as well. Battery first & panels later I think to spread the cost. I would also like a bigger Inverter so I can run more than 3.6kW at the same time but that may be a financial step too far for me. If I started from scratch now I would have gone with a GE All In One system but this wasn't around when i had my Gen 2 system installed. Going green ain't cheap!
Do you charge your battery at night using cheaper electricity? I usually have a near full battery in the morning which lasts all day with no problems (GE 8.2 kWh). You could sell me your 9.5kWh battery to part fund your AIO (said with a part tongue in cheek).
Yeah, I would certainly have considered the AIO too, if it had been available. We're still at the stage where going green is really only open to early adopters with cash on hand to fund the hefty up-front costs, but I think that's changing soon... :-)
@@eddyd8745 Hi Eddy. Yes we charge the 9.5 battery at night @7p/kWh during a 6 hour 11.30pm to 5.30am window (Octopus Intelligent Go).
When needed the car gets charged overnight as well & we also run time delayed appliances overnight when possible as well. Unfortunately, "management" is a fairly high energy user 🥴. The kettle always seems to on, the floor steamer & carpet washer in constant use to clear up the latest cat accident & the tumble dryer (heat pump now) & washing machine always running - & there's only two of us in the house now!!
Consequently our existing 9.5kWh GE battery is not enough (at least in winter).
I could add another 9.5kW battery relatively easily (almost plug & play) or, ditch the existing 3.6kW Hybrid Inverter & battery & go for the previously mentioned GE All In One system. Not sure I want the upheaval or extra expense of the AIO plus I probably need to get G99 approval (which could be refused) cos the AIO is 6kW AC output.
Apart from the G99 approval, the problem is the AIO has a 13.5kW battery on board which although larger may not be enough for us, especially if we want to ditch our Gas CH & run a Heat Pump at a later date. Extra batteries can be added to the AIO (future option according to GE). We are retired so are home most days so the heating is on during the day & set back at night. Currently gas boiler, rads, HW cylinder with an Eddi for excess solar - not happening in winter.
Adding an extra 9.5kW Gen 2 battery to our existing 9.5 gives us a more healthy 19kW of energy storage & for less money than the cost of an AIO - circa £6k (incl VAT currently) without installation cost. An extra 9.5kW battery is circa £3,200 (incl Vat currently) & theoretically we could charge the 2 x 9.5kW batteries within the 6hr cheap rate window overnight.
Thanks for the offer but I think I need to think about this a bit more to see what direction I need to go.
The problem is by next week something else will have come along to change everything😩
I am happy I added another 3.2 kWh battery last autumn. That now gives us 9.6 kWh. I don’t use it overnight, I just charge it. I get it to kick in around 7am and it lasts until around 9pm. We are planning on getting a heat pump. I am not sure how much that will use on a daily basis. I am waiting until the VAT change and will look at getting another 3.2 kWh battery. It is nice to be able to add on when required.
Thanks for the detailed reply Colin. I'm fortunate, in some respects, that I don't have any unnecessary management fees! 🤣I think that the additional 9.5kWh battery would seem to be the best option for you. Like you I would have gone for an AIO if I were doing the journey again. I'll probably look at getting another battery, probably just an 8.2kWh one, fitted when the VAT gets removed next week. I'm trying desperately not to get dragged into further costs for very little gain, but it is a bit addictive. Regards, Eddy
Thanks for this video. For those who already have a Tesla Powerwall 2 (the AC-coupled one), is there a longevity advantage from getting a 2nd unit due to load-balancing?
When they announced the 3rd generation and made it an all-in-one DC battery system that kind of disappointed me. Now I'm wondering if I should expand the setup I have during the first years of my first PW2, or just wait until it fails before thinking about this again.
You're most welcome, Nuno :-) My general view of Tesla is that they seem to know what they're doing - even if some of their moves seem strange at first. The PW2 is the gold standard of home batteries - everyone who has one (or more) seem to love them, they just work, with little or no intervention - and all the other manufacturers are now copying the PW2 specification as a result. I believe the PW3 is actually a move into the mass market, especially for those who cannot or don't want solar. And coincidentally, this is the topic of my next video in fact - battery only solutions :-)
You might be interested to watch this video, which explains the rationale for the PW3 design: ruclips.net/video/M9cdNC1IsxQ/видео.html
I know I was pretty annoyed by the change in the Powerwall 3 inverter situation. When I had my 18kW solar system installed in 2022, we had to wait a couple years before we could install batteries, and we went with Enphase microinverters for the ease of a future powerwall installation, thinking by then the PW3 would be out and we'd get more bang for the buck. Now it's coming out and our system is completely incompatible.
If you do a video about adding a battery to an existing PV, could you also talk about inverters, AC coupled for those on FiT I think, what are hybrid inverters? Is it the inverter that controls the charge / Discharge? If so might it be worth considering a 5kw inverter with a 8.2 Kw battery, so that you don’t draw from the grid when you turn your electric oven on, or high current devices? That’s
I recommend you watch this video, which I think will answer a lot of your questions ok👍🏻 ruclips.net/video/x83t1iCMXxw/видео.html
Good video. It would have been nice to see how those global values are reflected in the retail cost of common brands of battery. I’ve not seen big drops in the price of Tesla, GivEnergy batteries for example. Begs the question why?
Thanks! Distributors, retailers and installers adding their mark-up, likely…
Hi Gary, I’m still on the fence about adding a battery to my existing system. This week I’m struggling with the hassle and convoluted warranty complications of replacing a SolarEdge inverter for the third (!) time in just over 5 years. I’m so happy I convinced my daughter to go with Enphase micro-inverters. I wish I could go back five years and install a different system configuration. However, I’m happy I went with solar as soon as I moved in to my current house. By rough back of the envelope calculations I have broken even on initial system costs and am now collecting what the economists call “rent” of around $5000 per annum that would otherwise go to SoCal Edison. Reason enough to celebrate.
Yikes - feeling lucky we chose QCells QHome package over the SolarEdge one now. Thanks for the feedback.
Hi Richard, that's a pretty good return on your system - fantastic. And sorry to hear about the troubles you had with SolarEdge inverters - crikey! Maybe just waiting maybe 3 months and there will be further prices drops on batteries - enough to persuade you to spend some of those returns on a further ROI? :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar My high ROI was accomplished by a combination of high charges per kilowatt hour and lots of sunshine year-round. I’m prepared with a very reliable electrician who also installs solar to hook me up when I’m ready to proceed with batteries.
@@richardcoughlin8931 All the best with that Richard, and I'd love to hear how it all goes 👍
Microinverters work out more expensive and are pointless unless parts of your solar array are shaded at various times of the day.
Great video Garry, be good to investigate some hard prices. profiteering is stopping progress for example a 5kw pylontec battery costs £1350 in the uk while Alibarba offer it for £560 clearly something badly wrong here and its not just import taxes.
Thanks Alan, and I wish I had more time to be able to investigate this - especially for different regions around the world. I put my trust in an open market though, with healthy competition between suppliers keeping prices in check...
Why do more installers not use product from fogstar? They seem to be so much cheaper than any other supplier and come with an 8 year warranty 🤔
Looking at getting solar and battery installed but i cant find an installer that uses them which makes me.womder if i should get then panels and then buy the battery myself.
I'm not familiar with this product, sorry. You could post a question onto a solar forum (e.g. this one in the UK: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466). Good luck!
how much did your install cost ?
I talk about that in this video here: ruclips.net/video/JE2q__wFck0/видео.html
Thanks Gary. I am sitting tight until Oct/Nov this year when I will reassess. In the meantime cash is sitting in NS&I at 6.2% which, according to my RoI spreadsheet is more cost effective than the £16K odd solar & battery installation. As internet rates drop and prices likewise the balance might change for the better. It's quite a complex calculation to do if you include the degradation cost of batteries and other parts of the installation and balance against lost opportunity cost and savings on electricity costs.
My pleasure, Mike. A 6.2% rate is pretty good, I have to say, and I can't fault your strategy. Let's see how things pan out over the next 6-12 months :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar yes it was good. I just nipped in before it closed. I am getting 5.2% at the moment with Skipton BS (base rate -0.19%) but this one has closed now as well.
PS Premium Bonds not so good only about 3.2% over the past year.
I started my home solar project several months ago. I took the leap and put out a Alibaba RFQ. I ended up going with 4 cube units. 15kw per cube for a total of 60kw. Total price delivered to Houston, TX USA was $7,200.
Similar capacity from leading discount US battery suppliers would have been $16,000 to $30,000. My solar consultant working with me on this project would not...could not...believe the price until I tore one of the cubes apart, verified the grade a cells and did a capacity test for him.
There are issues with this direct from China strategy. Communication is a challenge. I view any concept of warranty as mostly a suggestion!
So it won't be a good choice for everyone, but the larger point...to the title of your video....is the driving force behind all of this will lead to much lower prices once the wave rolls through the larger players and they adjust their prices.
Wow - what an amazing price! And I totally agree with you, it's not about what one single manufacturer does, it's about the effect that this has on all the other manufacturers - problems drive solutions :-)
The really strange thing was that after I'd paid the money, pulled the order trigger....and...keep in mind...it takes about 60 days from China...I have continued to receive quotes....with some of them being 20% lower than the price I paid. I don't regret my choice...at some point you have to either jump in or decide you will never pull the trigger because prices will continue to trend down for a long time in my opinion. In my case I've built my own batteries so I"m comfortable with what I think is an almost "not warranty" choice on my part. If any of the cubes have a problem, it will be me pulling them apart, deciding if it is an individual cell or the bms that is the problem and putting them back into the rotation.
I'd also be curious about your stance on "cycles" and depth of charge and discharge. I get guys suggesting you do everything you can to make the battery last 10,000 cycles when it cost 30 or 50,000 dollars. It is far less of an issue if it cost 10,000 dollars. My stance is that if my batteries will last 5,000 cycles (and what does "last" really mean...dead...or just lower capacity at that point in time?)
In my case...5,000 cycles is more than 10 years! One...I'll be 75! Two...there will be stuff that is exponentially better and far cheaper. So...I'm aiming at full charge, almost full discharge every day.
I still have a discussion to have with you on your views on micro inverters vs string inverters....to be continued on that video or...we'll save it for another day!
Love your videos and thoughtful approach to making this whole thing interesting for guys like me.
@@GaryDoesSolar
@@houstonstarbuck Thanks for this extra information and also your kind words, Scott, and yeah, no problem - email me on me@GaryDoesSolar.com anytime 👍
How do you use Alibababa and not get scammed?
@@satekeeperbuyers protection i think
I’d be interested in finding out about the practicality of and obstacles to home batteries and other green tech for flats - no access to solar as they don’t own the roof, often not on gas (storage heaters). I can see it being delayed way past the point it should happen due to freeholders and land lords not paying the bills but withholding permission, and management/right to manage companies dragging their feet as doing anything at all costs money and effort to get agreement among residents with different circumstances. Heat pumps/ev chargers are difficult too for the same reason. My current expectation is that all of it will need to be forced by regulation and grants - shared ground source heat pumps/mhrv , ev chargers on often disconnected parking spaces associated with their owners properties, sensible shared solar installations and removing the ability of landlords/freeholders/insurance companies to block batteries etc. Leasehold may be going away, but a lot of barriers will remain.
You raise a large (and very important topic) - one that I can't answer right now, but I'm soon to make a video on the merits of battery-only installations... a good starting point!
@@GaryDoesSolar Cheers. It would be a shame if people in denser housing - which should be better for the environment all things being equal due to taking up less space and allowing for short distance higher volume public transit - are locked out of other opportunities to limit their carbon emissions for historical structural reasons.
@@GaryDoesSolar Quite an important one Gary. I live in a pretty large Victorian end terrace with a 'beautifully pitched' NNE-SSW facing roof. Guess which side has a bloomin' dormer window? Could probably only get 2 kW on it (3 floors up!)
Panel prices also dropped a lot. From City Plumbing you can get 400W panels for £81 including VAT and delivered.
That’s just brilliant 😀 and it opens the door to more and more people making the jump to solar 👍🏻
Panel prices have certainly fallen. But mounting equipment for panels have really shot up in price. My inroof panel adaptors for instance have gone up from £30 to £100. It’s quite shocking considering it’s just moulded plastic!
My recent 4kw panel quotes have shocked me at the £££
@@tonyfeasby1437 As is lower or higher?
@@anthonydyer3939 That's crazy eh? I still have faith in the free market though. Other manufacturers of the same, should easily be able to undercut... but only if there is enough competition for such items?
Gary, Great video! Just a quick FYI - You're a tad out of focus compared with your office background.
Thanks Billy - yeah, I screwed up on the setting up of my iPhone SE camera - I'll try not to make that mistake again! Glad you enjoyed the video :-)
Check the quality, how long has the company been in business, what are the odds of them honoring the warranty, etc. before you buy.
Great advice. Also, what is their support like? For example, do they routinely solve issues raised on online forums?
@@GaryDoesSolar also, how do they get recycled? lead acid batteries are easily recyclable. No need to mine for new minerals.
~$9000 US to install in my area. We use ~$90 per month in electricity. For our usage and our age(both early 70's) I just cant justify it even though I love the idea. I think I am going to try for DIY solar install instead. Yeah I know I may not get the benefit of 8-10 yr payback but the fun of installing would be worth it to me! :)
Yeah, it's quite an educational experience having such kit in the home! I wish my electricity bill (pre-solar) was as low as yours! All the best! :-)
If a Dc coupled battery can can sustain 100% dod but only gets used to 90% discharge maximum but 100% Soc and is only used for 5 months of the year, what would you expect to be the life cycle of the battery to be approximately given that most guarentee 60-70% at 10 years.
Difficult as the answer will surely depend on the manufacturer of the battery and the aggregate performance data of the actual product to date, but my gut feel is that the lifetime would extend by 10% (as you're cycling 10% less than others might be)? You can't avoid calendar aging though, where your battery will surely deteriorate anyway, regardless of its use.
Hi Gary. It would be great if we could use one of the batteries with non Li chemistry for home use. Reducing the demand for Li would likely bring down the price and with it the price of EVs. Besides, having a new boy on the block in the form of batteries with other chemistries would create competition which would also put downward pressure on battery prices. Fortunately, some of these other types of batteries are superior to Li batteries in all but charge per kg. They last a lot longer, can be cycled between 0 and 100% charge with no damage, present no fire risk when being shipped and would be cheaper than Li batteries if they could achieve market share. There are two types of ZnBr batteries, one from Redflow and one from Gelion and a liquid metal battery from Ambri. There are also a range of flow batteries based on V or Fe.
I love it that there are companies all over the world now investing a huge amount of time, money and effort into new battery technologies. The real winners, regardless of which technologies win over each other, are the consumers. In the end, I don't wee really care what happens inside the battery pack, so long as it provides sufficient capacity, longevity, charging and discharging speeds for the intended application(s). I don't think it will be too long before one of the technologies being explored (including the ones that you mention) proves itself worthy... :-)
Ambri batteries operate a 500°C which isn't practical for a home-sized battery. Sodium ion cells started appearing on alibaba at the end of 2023 so we might see home batteries using them in '24 or '25. Enervue's NiH redox-ish battery looks interesting too.
For a Home battery pack weight is normally not much of a problem. My home battery packs consist of 'Old style' deep cycle lead acid cells, set in a rack alongside my house. A well tried technology, that is completely recyclable.
Lithium battery prices will fall 50% by next year.
It’s good to see prices falling (and finally the VAT in the UK coming off) for battery installations, but there’s still quite a way for them to fall before they get to being mass-market which we need to be at to drive global energy transition.
Eg UK wholesale for a 9.5kW GivEnergy battery peaked at about £4200 last year. It’s now £3200. Ignoring conversion losses and installation prices and at (say) 20p/kW overnight to day electricity rate saving, that’s ~£2 saving per overnight charge cycle.
I love my battery and the flexibility it gives me, but it’s still at least 5 years payback, realistically more.
Hi Geoffrey, true, but at least it's clear everything's heading in the right direction :-)
9.5 kwh is far too little if you are running a heat pump in January and it is cold outside.
@@rogerphelps9939 absolutely agree. I have a heat pump and it can get through anywhere between 20 and 80kWh in a day depending upon outside temperatures.
That's way too much to ever have sufficient battery storage to supply with cheap overnight electricity, nor could I charge it up overnight either.
I was using the 9.5 to illustrate how challenging the payback calculation is.
In fact at the moment we only have a 5.2kW battery which will see us through most ;but not all) of the peak period. We moved to Octopus agile in October and it's actually working out pretty good, about 18/19p average unit rate. Yes more battery would reduce that further but I'd never get enough storage for every winters day
I am considering a solar/home battery installation here in the UK. Your video says Li-ion batteries now cost $200 per kWh of capacity. Installers are telling me £1000 per kWh capacity. How can these figures be reconciled? Is this more rip-off Britain?
It’s always worth shopping around - and also keeping an eye on social media forums - people will share when they see good deals on batteries 👍🏻
I had noticed via various sites prices for GE batteries coming down.
My own 'issue' is our 5k gen 1 GE inverter, which limits max battery draw to 2600w.
Being on Octopus Go (8.5p? x 4 HR window) means that during the lean months, all the power / battery slaying loads are ran during that time, and cost pennies.
In the worse case scenario, we'd have the Dishwasher, washing machine and heat pump tumbler running in those the cheap window.
This costs around 55-70p (tumble dry varies slightly)
So even with a cheaper battery (5.2kwh at £2500) we are not going to ever recoup that.
Nor can we run both in parallel, so if the above 3 applications needed to run at the same time, we'd still be drawing from the grid during certain periods, granted at cheap rate.
Cake and eat it I'd have waited for the Gen 2 and 9.5kwh battery with the max 3600 usage.
Still, they where like hens teeth, and my existing system was installed and running in time for the worse UK energy prices in history.
The argument for an extra battery to use to fill cheap, sell high may have merit, but thats subjective and affected by each households usage patterns
Hi Stuart, thanks for the insightful comment. I have a Gen2 GivEnergy battery and even with a 3.6kW discharge, I'm finding it difficult to keep the house load under that - especially around peak times! I think the solution really is where Tesla (and hopefully others) are taking us with the new Powerwall 3 - an >11kW discharge rate... Hopefully, you'll see from the video that in a few years, price won't be anywhere near as much of an issue as it has been in recent times.
@@GaryDoesSolar I think the trick once the honeymoon period ends is to not fret too much, especially during main evening meal periods!
I was semi tempted by the Givenergy All in One, but even that can only sustain peak loads of around 7kwh for very short periods.
My parents touted buying my system from me, which would have offset the cost / trade in, but they're still on the fence, and I'm not unhappy with what we ended up with.
Good video as ever!
I plumped for the Alpha Smile 5 ESS with a nominal 5kw discharge (actually less than that , depending on temperature). Brilliant bit of kit , it very very rarely can't cope with the house load (PV generation added on top of course which is a bonus in the summer) We are totally electric now , heat pump , cooking , cars etc. All together our electric bill for December was £125. It should be all paid back by 2030.
@@rico4229 Just looked it up. Impressive kit 👍
@@stuartburns8657 I think doing it again and 1 year on I would try and get a system which better integrates with everything else going on in the house. I think GivEnergy and Myenergi are going down that route. But you can wait forever for a perfect system!
My battery cost 20,000 pounds, it is called an MG4. Put in a CEE socket, run some 2.5mm2, 63a change over switch. My provider gives me 3 hours of power free at night, thats 20kwh. I only use 8kwh per day. So plenty to drive and power house at peak times. Cook with gas so peak load is kettle and toaster together 3,000 watts max. Yes installed by a certified electrician here in NZ.
Sounds good!
I’ve noticed that lifepo battery storage is now well under £200 per kWh and solar panels have almost halved in price since 2 years ago .
It's incredible, eh? And I think the price drops are only just getting started - so much so, I've got another video on batteries coming out soon...!
@@GaryDoesSolar 12v 100ah batteries are ubiquitous and now under £200 from several manufacturers .
There is an argument that the grid acts as a giant battery and your utility should pay an encouraging price for your surplus to prevent you from running for a home battery. We already have batteries in our EVs so do we want to dig up more land for more batteries??
There are certainly so-called net-metering tariffs around the word, where exported energy is the same price as imported energy, and in that respect, the grid acts like an infinite battery. But... my understanding is that these tariffs are slowly disappearing. Take Australia for example, between 10am and 3pm, the grid absolutely does not want exported solar - and so only pay a few cents/kWh for it. That said, it's not something I've had time to research properly yet, but I would like to understand the long term effect of such tariffs... I'm of the view that the world needs a lot more batteries than it has, because batteries are great at levelling out the spikiness of wind and solar.
Finally, if the batteries are sodium-ion, we may not need to do that much digging...
Been some reports by home insurance and Rightmove that show the value of your house goes up by the same amount of more the cost of the fitted solar system. And homes with solar also sell faster. I spent 15k on my new system. And with the value increase of my home I got my money back instantly.
Great to hear, and I’m not surprised, Richard 👍🏻 All you need to do when selling your home is show prospective buyers the savings they’ll achieve… easy argument to show increased value!
12 months in... and using batt/solar and agile saved circa £1800, on course for paybacl in under 8 years
Wow - that’s great to hear, and with battery prices falling since then, payback periods will inevitably come down 😀👍🏻
I'd be like a shot Gary if Octopus offered a battery only tariff eg with no linkable export option. My roof is awkward for solar and currently I'm getting on well with Agile though the 16.00 - 19.00 peak is obviously a major inconvenience. GiveEnergy AIO would be my preference but they have no automation with Agile, only Go. I've even thought about buying a small used EV to gain access but, in old speak, that's maybe putting the cart before the horse.
Your videos are really helping to drive the revolution though - well done!
Thanks Jim. And I think a battery-only style tariff could soon happen… I’ll be covering this in a video soon 👍🏻
@@GaryDoesSolar Thank you Gary, we'll see I guess. I keep nudging Octopus but they tell me to use ones I don't qualify for. Innovation would most probably tip me over.
Have a look at the open source home assistant software and BottleCapDave's plug in for Octopus.
This allows you to set up target rate sensors for the cheapest or most expensive periods of the day - however long you want. So you could get to say, 1600, see how much juice you have in the battery, then decide to export for one hour at the best price over the next three hours. Or export for two hours if you have more juice in the battery. Or don't export at all if you don't have much left.
So far I have this working the other way around with my hot water immersion, i.e. heat water at the cheapest three hours of the day. Admittedly that is a much simpler problem to solve.
I'm planning a givenergy all in one and am pretty sure I can get a reasonably optimised export strategy setup this way. I live in a flat so no solar for me.
Another thought is prioritising export for octoplus saving sessions might be best financially (and environmentally?) Dave's integration reports those sessions, too. The octopus APIs are brilliant, they are a proper tech company.
@@cad4246 Thank you so much for posting this 😀it's a really helpful pointer and one I'll certainly follow up. Really appreciated!
@@cad4246 thank you for this. My knowledge of HA is zero sadly and my wife's even less. I've seen in one of Gary's later videos that there is a paid service which would achieve broadly similar but with less potential to finesse. I'm sold on the battery and I like Agile but the control {and learning curve) concerns me. Perhaps I just may delay and hope GE decide to improve their native automations - but I'm not holding my breath. I do very much appreciate your help though, thank you!
Not vat on stand alone batteries after feb 1st in the uk
Yeah, great news :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar Is that only if installed by an installer, ie not zero % if you fit it yourself.
Is that if you pay to have them installed or can I just you buy one myself and fit it?
@@edc1569 Unfortunately, the UK VAT relief is only available if the battery is supplied and fitted by a professional installer.
@@GaryDoesSolar well, someone that is VAT registered, although they ought to be qualified as well.
Excellent research as usual Gary, thanks. anomalous
Thanks Robert - and sorry about the focus problem!
Gary, early adapters are important because they enable the innovation and production scales that drive prices down for the rest of us! Next, developing affordable home and small business-scale batteries is essential to driving wider adoption of solar and EVs. We basically need a 50 kWh battery for $10,000 US.
I completely agree, and thankfully, there are plenty early adopters, to make all this happen. And with an expected 11% decrease in prices expected per year, and the impact of inflation, a 50kWh for $10,000 is maybe closer than you think :-)
Gary, with all respect. Can you show us that you will earn money with this sytem before the end of the lifetime of the battery?
@@marjanklaver6669 That's quite e a general question as there are a lot of factors involved, including amount of sun, daily energy usage profile, size and output of the battery and the smart tariff you're on. That's why I developed this model, so that people can set it up for their own particular circumstances to see how much they could save - let's say over a 10-year warranted battery lifespan).
garydoessolar.com/utilities/dailymodellingutility/
From reports I saw late last year the Chinese already have LFP production costs below $90/kWh now. And CATL and others are now ramping production of the Sodium batteries. The great thing is that they can be substituted into existing manufacturing processes supposedly so they don't need to retool just fine tune the processes for the new materials.
Yeah, and I made mention of this in my latest video (just uploaded) - such great news! And I think the battery revolution is coming quicker than maybe people thought! :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar The only person who ever got the disruption that is happening correct? Is Tony Seba.
@@davefroman4700Yeah, I have a lot of time for Tony 👍🏻
Something to consider as well is lithium metal batteries like the ones being developed by Quantumscape. Their tech ensure only tiny degradation over 800+ cycles so the value proposition improves as higher effectiveness is maintained for many years.
It's great to see companies attempting to push the boundaries! :-)
It's a lot cheaper if you don't need something sleek and compact. If you don't mind something the size of a fridge then you have much cheaper options.
That’s true 👍🏻
I'm waiting on the new Fogstar 15.5kWh battery. It still seems too cheap to be true. It's literally half the price per kWh of the popular Givenergy one many people choose.
Ps what was wrong with your camera Gary? You were very blurry today! 😄
That sounds like a great deal you got. Would love to hear how you get on with it. Yeah, sorry about the lack of focus - there are so many things that have to go right for a successful recording, and some of those (things (audio, video) you don't really get to review until after it's all done. My New Years Resolution then is to get better at that! Ha! :-)
Just bought bare cells for 62€/kWh before tax (78€ with tax and shipping from EU based distributor)
It is unbeleivable cheap now
Great stuff. And I’m hearing that CATL (who manufacture a third of the world’s li-ion batteries) is cutting prices even further this year! Bring it on 👍🏻
Im super keen for sodium ion batteries to reach market maturity. In MHO, they are a no brainer for home storage. Yes they’re not quite as energy dense as lithium ion batteries, however given the lower need for thermal regulation in them packs, the overall pack size is relatively similar. If these are rolled out on mass, that would reduce the demand on lithium ion batteries and save those for EV’s
I’d be keen for Sodium based batteries because the resources come from sea water.
Yeah, I wasn't really away of them until I researched for the video. I'm definitely keeping an eye on the technology now, as for stationary storage at least, it looks to be a real winner. I just love how scientists and engineers keep on pushing the boundaries... I mean it's essentially just salt! :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar Well, salt is technically any base reacted with an acid. But yes, sodium is in “common” salt. The thing I find disheartening is that sodium based batteries seem to be this new amazing technology when that’s the technology route we should have gone down decades ago. Instead, millions of acres of habitats and ecosystems have been torn apart and polluted just to refine a few grams from tonnes.
@@oliverpolden Great point, Oliver - I should have said "common salt" 😃 Yeah, sometimes certain technologies find it hard to get the limelight (and therefore funding)... it looks like Sodium-ion is soon to have its day though!
Millions of acres of habitats and ecosystems have not been torn apart. Most lithium comes from salt lakes of very low ecological value.@@oliverpolden
I installed 10 MW batteries over a year ago into our solar panel system which cost me £5k and as the bank were giving me 🖕 as interest it was money well spent and once I had economy 7 set up it was a win win half price lecie on cloudy days in winter and free of charge in the summer or even in cloud free winter days. As the country is obsessed with net zero solar panels and battery systems should be a legal requirement in all newbuilds with each building required to have south facing roof panels....or I am I an optimist
Great new about your batteries (although I'm using 10kW, not 10MW - unless you're also running a small power station??) I agree on new build houses - there are no excuses not to do this - I mean, even if was one of the options offered by manufacturers to buyers, I'd imagine most would go for it, such is the general availability of information today...
@@GaryDoesSolar you are correct i mage typo error
@@martspar9075 No worries! 🙂
Can’t for the life of me understand why all new builds don’t have to have a minimum amount of soar, say 1kw per bedroom
Here in the states used to be a big push to use electric power during off-peak time. I thought about building an inverter and battery system to shift power during off peak. I notice 2/3 of my bill was fees and tax. Didn't really matter how much I shifted they made it so not cost effective. It's hard to compete with building out a solar battery system that capable of 48k watts of perfect 60 cycle power. Essentially have to be able to produce at least 2/3 of that power instantly for several hours to completely shift off grid. Grid tied system they have so many regulations price is pushed very high. Maybe someday in the future it will change with prices falling.
Yeah, I'm hoping that over time, this happens too, and I'm confident it will...
Believe it or not, for some people your statement that home batteries can save you money isn’t true. Where I live almost all our electricity is from hydroelectric, and the tariff is the same in the middle of the day vs. the middle of the night. That also means our grid is not significantly greener at night than during the day. Just an FYI that making a broad statement for a global audience will almost always mean there are exceptions! :-)
But I still want a home battery, for power outages. It’s just harder to justify when that’s the only benefit!
But even where you live, people can still save money with batteries by storing excess solar generation, for use later on instead of pulling from the grid?
Yeah, agreed - it’s quite an expensive outlay just for EPS 👍🏻
I purchased a givenergy all in one the day they announced that they are dropping the Vat tax in Feb. I wish I could claim back the VAT. But on to up side its a great system.
Oh no! Worth phoning the supplier, to see if they can do anything - e.g. cancel and re-order the same for a later install?
@@GaryDoesSolar Unfortunately its installed and I doubt this Gov will allow claims before February on the Vat. Ho Hum. Thanks for the information though and this is a great channel.
LG Home 8: 7.5kW inverter, 16 kWh battery, 200-A energy box now under $7,700.
That seems a pretty good price - thanks for sharing!
If you have a heat pump, which a lot of us will in not so many years, home batteries will not work very well. The problem is that the heat pump must be on all day when, if you have an off peak tariff, you will be paying extra for your electricity. You might think that you could charge the battery after midnight and before say, 5 am, on off peak electricity but during the depths of winter the amount of energy used by a heat pump will exceed the capacity of most batteries by a very large margin.
Hi Roger, I don't agree with this, sorry. The benefit of a home battery is that you can buy energy cheap overnight, then use later to avoid drawing from the grid at a higher import rate. It doesn't matter if you use it to power a heat pump or any other appliance in the home - it's still cheaper energy.
Are we getting close to where a home battery without solar would be financially viable?
See my latest video which goes live in about 15 minutes 👍🏻
With energy density in batteries going up and prices going down you also get more value with smaller batteries
Great point, Nick! And I have to say, the future of batteries is looking very good indeed... :-)
WHilst I was watching this video, on the right of my screen there were 3 youtube videos showing prices had gone up and 1 that prices had dropped. Its as bad as EVs one video says sales are dropping and another sales are increasing...
Yeah, there’s certainly a lot of misinformation going around. And that’s why I try to ground what I cover in my videos with reliable sources 👍🏻 Overall, it always pays to shop around…
Interesting announcement. I contacted my local supplier for batteries and was told that it only applied to installation not to batteries! I contacted another supplier and they clarified that the battery would have to be supplied by an installer who would not charge VAT and who would reclaim the VAT. So, again, the government screws the consumer who wants to add a battery. If the technology is zero-rated, it should be zero-rated for everyone!
So my understanding is that the VAT relief is only available on an installed battery (by a professional installer) and it would be on the cost of the battery and the cost of installation combined. Of course the installer would need to be VAT registered as well for the relief to apply. Definitely worth shopping around (as you are indeed doing). Good luck! 🤞🏼
Why aren’t Sodium batteries being used pervasively for static storage? Sodium is so much more abundant and easier to source than lithium. It’s also apparently safer than lithium. It’s almost a no brainer for home energy storage yet it’s apparently a “new” and emerging technology when we’ve had lithium ion batteries for 30+ years.
I think there are still some aspects to be proven, for example, longevity and reliability. I'm sure it won't be long though before it's used widely for at least stationary storage :-)
Thanks!
That's so very kind of you - thank you! :-)
Gary, you are looking quite blury in this video. Something wrong with the focus maybe?
Yeah, sorry about that. I’ve no idea what happened. I use an old iPhone XE to record my videos and I must have pressed the wrong button - and of course I didn’t notice until I’d finished recording. My New Year’s resolution is now to carefully check the video settings three times before I record! 🤣👍🏻
The next biggy is energy density. If you could get say a 40 kWh battery for the same price as a 13.5 kWh battery AND the same size, you also have a big battery for a heat pump
A biggy is shipping weight (which also means that the factory has to have a bigger factory and therefore higher rent or be limited to fewer batteries per day)
It'd be interesting if say batteries ever become as small a UPS even if it's just for 1 or 2 kWh worth of power. My parents have a small UPS in Pakistan. Everything stops working in a power cut except the fans.
The power cuts usually last just one hour or so. The average middle class (by the American definition) Pakistani person can afford a UPS but not solar + batteries, especially as the cost of water to clean the solar panels can be quite high too.
That's definitely be interesting. Right now, UPS' in the domestic market, are typically a thing in the global south instead of the global north. With batteries, it's the opposite currently but it could mean that everyone will have batteries in due course.
That would go a long way to help people everywhere given heat can be a real killer
I like your thinking on this. There's definitely a burgeoning market for all sizes of batteries for all manner of applications around round. I like it! :-)
Good video but also (UK only I know) in Feb batteries should have 0 vat, that is likely to either depress (I hope) or maybe slightly increase (profit taking) batteries for Uk shipping. We arw considering adding another 10kwh of storage post getting a heat pump as the economics seem to work out.
Hi John, yeah - the expected change in legislation on battery-only installations in the UK is very welcome! It's true that some manufacturers will try to use this as an opportunity to increase their profits (by not passing on the VAT cut) but that behaviour generally only works in established markets. The consumer solar market is nowhere near mature yet, and with so many new entrants (who will absolutely pass on those savings to secure a share of the market) I'm not too worried - the incumbents will follow, if only to preserve their current share of the market :-)
Hope things are going well with your heat pump. I want to get one at some point, so researching as much as I can at the moment. Agreed, a bigger battery can only help!
Having a battery ready system, with hybrid inverter, this is very welcome
if I can get the maths the work!
@@michaelheathcote9488 Hi Michael, as you're looking at the sums, here is a sneak preview to a free utility I'll be releasing soon - let me know what you think: garydoessolar.com/utilities/batarazma/ 👍
@@GaryDoesSolarthat’s pretty good. It’d be nice if the before tariff could have a night rate too (e.g econ 7). Tbf these kinds of calculators should also include cost of funding ie the interest you are still paying from the capital expense or interest not earned via alternative investment - though a lot of the time for consumers that can be zero due to leaving in current accounts etc…
@@rjScubaSki Thanks for the feedback. My plan is to make a Pro version of the same, with additional features - I'll add your suggestions to the list - cheers 🙂
Just my luck, the VAT exempt is announced days after I've just bought an additional battery!
Sorry :-(
as far as Im aware sodium batteries cant be made out of sodium from sea water ...?
Ok, ok, fair comment! In my (weak) defence, I was trying to be funny :-)
The truth is that whilst it is technically possible to make sodium-ion batteries using sea water, it's far from efficient. There are much better sources - here's what ChatGPT4 said:
Sourcing sodium compounds for sodium-ion batteries typically involves obtaining purified and high-quality sodium compounds suitable for battery production. The best and easiest sources of sodium compounds for sodium-ion batteries include:
Sodium Carbonate (Soda Ash): Sodium carbonate (Na2CO3), commonly known as soda ash, is a readily available source of sodium. It is used in industries such as glass manufacturing and can be processed to obtain high-purity sodium carbonate for battery production.
Sodium Sulfide (Na2S): Sodium sulfide is another sodium compound used in some battery technologies. It can be produced from sodium chloride (table salt) and hydrogen sulfide (H2S) gas through chemical reactions.
Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic Soda): Sodium hydroxide (NaOH), also known as caustic soda, is a strong base and a potential source of sodium for battery applications. It is widely used in the chemical industry and can be produced through the chlor-alkali process.
Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3): Sodium nitrate is a sodium compound that can be used in some battery chemistries. It is commonly found as a mineral called nitratine.
Sodium Phosphate (Various Forms): Different forms of sodium phosphate, such as sodium iron phosphate, can be used in specific types of sodium-ion batteries. These compounds can be synthesized or obtained from certain minerals.
...
The other benefit is that this lessens the peak load for power providers. Power providers should incentivize batteries, as well as solar. Plus for the consumer, you get some backup.
I have a video on this coming up… 👍🏻
I can't see how sodium batteries will replace lithium for EV's due to the extra weight......but I'm sure a technology will come that will.
Sodium batteries, on the other hand, are very likely to replace lithium for fixed in place batteries where space & weight are not a concern......however.....a better technology will likely cancel sodium as well.
Bright future for new energy and new energy storage :)
I totally agree - and it's going to be an interesting next couple of years - not least with the CATL announcement (see my latest video) :-O
green yes, save money absolutely not. Is home solar not using LFP cells?
I'm fine with contentious statements, but not without data/support to back them up. Please add or I'll remove your comment.
@@GaryDoesSolar Not contentious at all. Ive had quotes for solar, payback on battery's was minimum 17 years - far better off paying the $ off my mortgage. would you like a copy of the quotes?
@@timorumThanks for coming back to me on this. The problem I’ve got is that your statement was a blanket one - that solar was not financially viable - yet, the data you’ve presented to support that is a set of just one example (you).
Not very scientific.
@@GaryDoesSolar Perhaps it is my example but its had to see how a different example would change the sums enough to make is remotely viable. Happy to send you my quotes and powerbill to do the math.
@@timorum I'm sorry, but you're missing the point. I don't doubt that you in particular have not been able to save money using solar as you claim (so no need to send documentation). But that's a data sample of 1, and from such a small sample size, that you cannot conclude it's impossible for anyone else to save money. Therefore, your generic statement, "save money absolutely not", cannot be backed up with data. Do you not see this??
It’s a con if batteries were vat free they would be zero rated so everyone could shop around buy their own then get a sparky to fit them . But no unfortunately
There's a chance we might get to that point in the next 12-24 months, but what's stopping you contracting the battery purchase and installation work with your electrician, who can then reclaim the VAT? I don't see any con happening here.
Irrespective, the chart I showed in the video show that battery prices are expected to fall 11% year on year. What's not to like?
Because nearly everyone wants to make money out of the materials they supply it is not giving everyone the opportunity to search for the best price. Vat free is vat free zero rated is what it says zero rated for every body.
You can buy a HV 14.2 kwh system in Belgium now for 5200 euro tax included.
That’s great to hear!
How about second hand EV batteries that are still at 90% capacity. They should be way cheaper. An old ZOE 30 kWh battery can be had for as cheap as £3000.
Completely agree - I reckon there will be a huge consumer market for second-hand batteries. In fact, that is needed to support increased new purchases as well 👍🏻 bring it on!
Not only was all pricing ridiculous a year ago, but I was shaking my head at the amount of cowboy installations taking place. Even the best professional electrical contractors have learned a lot since then so going forwards should be cheaper and safer.
Agreed!
If we were really concerned about efficiency and price we wouldnt sell batteries and solar to individuals, we would have massive utility scale batteries (using cheap materials like redox flow, or thermal batteries) and solar arrays. The same is true for transportation. Socialized fleets are much cheaper than privatized ones. Cars are parked 95% of the time. If we socialized the fleet, we could reduced its size by 85% and still have a huge surplus of cars.
I’d argue the reality of it is that both are happening at the same time. Nothing wrong with that. Many people prefer to have their own battery storage to protect them from blackouts.
Any power suppliers giving an off-peak "battery charging" rate like a rate they have a EV rate? At the moment, my off peak rate is not that much cheaper than the peak rate
Which country are you in?
@@GaryDoesSolar UK
Worth looking at Octopus Energy for very good off-peak rates, particularly Flux and Agile tariffs. Even better if you have an EV - look at Go and Intelligent Go tariffs 👍🏻
@@GaryDoesSolar thanks
Eon next have recently launched an EV tariff - 6.9p per kWh between midnight and 7am here in the UK
I thought most home solar batteries are LiFePO4 not Li-ion.
It’s all still Li-ion. I think the installed base is mainly NMC, but for new home battery sales today,
It’s predominantly LFP due to lower pricing and increased safety.
Lithium is one of the most common elements on Earth, every Country has it, where I live my State has more than enough Lithium to meet demands, if they ever bother to mine it, but Batteries are moving away from Lithium and therefore won't be an issue any way, most new cars are using the new battery tech already as the Lithium Ion Batteries had a bad habit of going up in flames if pierced or overcharged as many found out with their E Scooter or Hover Board going up in flames.
Agreed, we need to ensure the highest safety we can when dealing with batteries, in just the same way as we have to do with gasoline.
I put in solar and a Power Wall four years ago for $17k. I have been making about $250/yr for my excess power instead of spending about $600-$750/yr. I got the solar panels to save money and be more environmentally conscious. I got the Power Wall because with wildfires here in California our power was suppose to much less reliable. Well I haven’t had my power go out once since I had solar and battery installed.
That's a great return - thanks for sharing, Matthew. There are some people out there that are still arguing solar is not financially worth it. Your experience, together with many others, show it can.
Why isn’t the fire risk being considered? Thermal runaway in a home battery can be even more deadly than an EV catching fire.
Covered here: ruclips.net/video/x83t1iCMXxw/видео.html
The home battery prices are insane compared to EV's. You can buy a 90kwh car with the price of 40kwh home battery. And a car is bit more then only the battery. Makes no sense.
Agreed - hopefully, the home battery market will benefit from the growth of the EV battery market before too long...
Good video
Thank you 🙏 😀
Actually, with the right import tariff AND the right export tariff, it's financially better to charge up your battery off peak at 7.5p/kWh and export your PV at 15p/kWk
The analysis I carried out in my recent battery ROI videos didn’t show that. I found that it’s always better to self-consume the battery energy than export (import price saved > export price made)
I fear plenty of installers will just pocket savings rather than pass them on to their customers.
In a mature market, that can certainly (and does) happen, but luckily, the solar and battery market is still immature - and because of that, incumbents can easily be replaced by new upstarts, and those upstarts have no choice really, *but* to pass the cost savings on, IMHO
Must you have a Hybrid inverter too add batteries?
A hybrid inverter is required for DC Coupled batteries. AC Coupled batteries have their own inverter or charge controller. See here: ruclips.net/video/x83t1iCMXxw/видео.html
@@GaryDoesSolar thanks, did order Powerwall some years ago but still no Powerwalls in Sweden. And as we have DC/AC inverter’s already seems like AC batteries is the best choose for us.
Charging a home battery from the grid is forbidden in Switzerland 😞
Wow - I wasn't aware of that. Any particular reason?
because the load you add to the grid? (But i guess its just a dumb political reason)@@GaryDoesSolar
@@lukululu9759Such a shame the some countries don’t see the tremendous benefits of local generation. That will change over time…
SOLAR 'GRID TIE'. TWO METERS, GOING FORWARD ONE GOING BACKWARD. BILLING MONTH. IF METER GOING BACKWARD DOES NOT EXCEEDS METER GOING FORWARD, NO ELECTRICITY USED.. FOR 15 YEARS NO BATTERIES ELECTRIC BILL ZERO. WHEN ELECTRICITY GOES OUT, PLUG TESLA CYBER TRUCK 123KWH BATTERY INTO HOME. MAINTAINS HOME FOR 5 DAYS.
Sounds like you've got a good setup there! :-) How are you finding the Cyber Truck?
Tesla PW3 are the best!
Yeah, I’d agree - they’re setting the standard for how batteries should be designed 👍🏻
Saving $200 a month while spending $20K for batteries is not a good use of money; and you’re spending another $30K for solar panels. If the overall cost can be reduced by 50%, then it’s worthwhile to consider.
Assuming you're in the US, yeah, costs for solar and battery do seem to be higher there. Is it mainly the installation costs?
@@GaryDoesSolar It’s the combination of both materials and labor.
Depressing news from the Northvolt people. They're scaling back production of their sodium batteries because, reportedly, the EV manufacturers have not been receptive enough. This is just baffling: who cares about EVs? Cheaper home microgrids should be their target.
WTF.
The title states prices are falling, but all you provide is a speculative projection into the future which might or might not be right.... ugh, really?
I presented two charts from reputable sources that show prices have literally fallen and are expected to continue falling according to analyst projections (i.e. those in the know). What more do you want?
I am not really worried about the planet. I am worried about cost and payback time.
Hope my videos on costs are useful to you 👍🏻
Saving the planet is not really the issue. The planet will survive regardless but its ability to support life is the real issue here.
@@narrowboatlongpod4176 Haha true - but I think it's a safe assumption that we want the planet saved with us still on it 👍
Problem is we’ll all use more energy in the future so there’s an offset there. More energy use more solar required more money for solar.
As it happens, we’re using a lot less electricity today than we used to…
@@GaryDoesSolar We’ll have to see how this plays out but there are places that are trying to phase out natural gas and propane etc. in favor of all electric based homes. Same thing applies to gas and EV’s.
I agree 👍🏻
Batteries do not save carbon unless you manage them specifically to do so, and currently there is no simple method to do that. Managing them to save money is the best you can do, and this typically increases your carbon footprint. All the studies that I found came to this conclusion. I am not against batteries (I have some) but we should be honest about the benefits.
Sorry, but I don't agree. Batteries are to all intents and purposes 100% recyclable, so you can discount any carbon deficit there. And if, throughout the year, I can routinely consume excess solar generation from earlier in the day during the peak period, when marginal national generation is fossil fuel burning, the carbon credit is huge. And when you add in DFS opportunities, the carbon credit is even higher.
Hook them up to one of octopus agile tariffs and you are effectively managing carbon through the price controls.
Plus the guff about carbon intensity is mostly just greenwashing. Unless your supply is 100% green, any additional demand can only be met by increasing fossil fuelled generation.
@@GaryDoesSolar Recycling: Recycled materials sometimes have higher embodied carbon than virgin materials. So a new battery from recycled materials may well have higher embodied carbon than one from virgin materials. It certainly isn't zero.
Storing solar: true but only if there is a large difference in the marginal carbon intensity of the grid between when you are charging your battery and when you use it; if the marginal fuel source is gas in both cases, it is better (saves more carbon) to export not store.
DFS: Don't know what this is so can't comment.
I really am not knocking batteries just pointing out that according to the studies merely having a battery does not automatically reduce carbon, you have to actively manage it. A TOU tariff like Agile is probably the best way to go at the moment, since presumably there is a strong relationship between the spot price and marginal carbon intensity. Perhaps Octopus should introduce an Agile-Carbon tariff?
@@rockyallen5092 Fair points, and exactly the kind of debate I like, thanks! 👍
When cleanest 😂
What’s your point?
From Feb 2025 there will be 0 VAT on batteries same as solar panels.
Feb 2024 - yes, and it's great to see. And should pave the way for more people to make the jump to a sustainable future. I'll be making a video shortly on battery-only installations...