Buffy the Vampire Slayer 2x22 'Becoming, Part 2' Reaction!!
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- Buffy must come to terms with the necessity of killing Angel to save the world, but at what cost?
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0:00 Intro
0:45 Reaction
19:00 Discussion 
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One of the saddest episodes which is what makes this show one of the best.
Angelus: Take all that away, and what's left?
Buffy: (catching the sword by the blade) Me.
I will always love that part. SO GOOD!!! ❤❤❤
A realisation Buffy needed!...but that realisation has some other dangers which we will find out next season.
@@sherrysink3177 there are a handful of iconic visual moments that are major, out of the whole series. And that is definitely one of them. Also, in the episode before, her running down the hall.
Everyone always misses the "Grr Argh" logo at the end of this one.
For sheer operatic brutality this finale has never been matched. It's sad that the impact was lessened by foreknowledge of the Angel series. It was devastating at the time.
SMG gave an acting masterclass in the time between the return of Angel's soul and seeing the opening of the portal. From all out Slayer fury, to wariness, dawning hope, sheer ecstasy at being in his arms again, to shock, horror and the awful realization of her Duty..."Wrong, kid...you've got one more thing."
The name of their love theme that has played throughout the season is "Close Your Eyes".
Thanks I did not know the theme had an actual name. If the Crew reads this… Close Your Eyes is what Darla says to Angelus before she bites him to kill him and turn him into a Vampire. Darla says it out if her lustful selfish desires. Then Buffy asks Angel to close his eyes before she runs the sword through him and sends him to the hell dimension. Unlike Darla, Buffy kills him for altruistic reasons, for humanity, and with love. The ironic thing is that both do the same act for opposite reasons yet the result is the same…. Angel has died, will suffer eternal torment, and never experience a single moment of happiness. What a great tragedy.
Juliet Landau who plays Drusilla is The Goat.😊
Spike and Joyce scene is beyond perfection
Juliet Landau (Drusilla) is the daughter of Martin Landau (“Ed Wood”) and Barbara Bain. They were on the original “Mission: Impossible” TV show together. Wish Juliet had been in more high profile stuff. She is terrific.
Thank you for the tidbit. I love Martin Landau.
They were also the leading actors in British sci-fi series Space 1999 in the 70s, a classic. Met Juliet Landau once, so down to earth and a pleasure to talk to. Her acting as Drusilla was simply awesome and totally believable
Juliet Landau and James Marsters (Spike) are both theater actors and it shows. Anthony Stewart Head also comes from the (music)theater world.
@VerMaarte Anthony Stewart Head was also the star of a long running tv advertisement campaign for Nescafe Gold blend in the UK. Also a great singer too
@@dougmoodie8713 Indeed, he starred in The Rocky Horror Show on stage. Studied musical theater
Mike, Joe, and Mikey, Buffy's first Watcher, Merrick see in episode 2x21 | "Becoming, Part I" was played by Richard Riehle.
Police Chief Bob Munroe seen in episodes 2x03 | "School Hard" & 2x19 | "I Only Have Eyes for You" was played by Brian Reddy.
When I was first exposed to Buffy, our state TV only bought the first two seasons.
So, for quite a while, I was certain that is the series finale.
And when they showed it the second time, they bought five seasons. Luckily, internet was a thing and I was able to Yahoo it and find out there is more.
Those of us who have come out will pick on the Buffy and her mom metaphor scene immediately. It’s the “have you ever tried not being a slayer” that really drives the metaphor home hard. There’s a similar quote in the second x men movie where one of the ice kid’s parents asks him if he’s “ever tried not being a mutant”
I’m sure someone already said this but the guy who told Buffy she was a slayer in LA and the police guy are two different people. The LA guy was her first Watcher who died. They’re all two different people and actors lol
Makes sense thank you! We did get that but we appreciate you :)
FINALLY it is so refreshing to see this perspective on Xander's now-infamous lie of omission... Very understandable that he wouldn't want Buffy to falter because of (possibly false) hope that a spell might save Angel in time. His selfish motivation is only part of it, and that too is realistic; Xander is a teenager after all, complicated and conflicted, whether we like it or not. Depth of character, in all the major roles: a Whedonverse specialty. Amazing, in just two seasons, what this show's already become.
I bawled my eyes out
They didn’t know they were going to have another season
Becoming part 2 was a terrific ending to S2 setting up the brilliant S3. Here we see Buffy faced with the ultimate heart breaking choice to kill her lover or save the world. We of course know she will make the right choice. Willow comes through at the end, but Buffy has to go through with the final act. So poignant at the end when from afar Buffy sees her friends but decides to leave Sunnydale, Joyce too is so regretful as she knows Buffy is now gone after their terrible row, all against the backdrop of Sarah McLachlan's beautiful haunting ballad Full Of Grace. I think we can see how you guys are now hooked on the show, as are all reactors that enter 'The Buffyverse' and it only gets better. You will devour S3 it's incredible!
The Demon Acathla doesn't actually kill humans, he just sucks them in to a demon dimension (which technically is killing them, but it is a distinction).
i miss the couch. i liked how you'd grab and bump into each other when you got excited. you've split yourselves up now and it feels less wholesome.
It does feel a little different, but I guarantee that we have a group hug moment coming up soon 🫡
When they wrote the episode, they did not know the show would get renewed. But by the time they started filming, they did. That is why the sign said, "Leaving Sunnydale. Come back soon"
I just love this 2-part finale. its funny, emotional, exciting and full of twists and turns. what more can you ask for?
Having lived through the series when it was airing. The ratings for BTVS S2 were great and one of the highest for the WB at the time. So this was not meant to be a finale, the season finale’s were always grand and epic. And this one was along with being heartbreaking. This show is one of the best and continues to evolve and get better and better
i think all the season finale's shot for that heartbreak
To call it heartbreaking is an understatement for many fans to this day. There are millions… yes millions, of people that can not watch Buffy running the sword through Angel without becoming physically and emotionally exhausted. Who knows exactly why but Bangel grabbed an era of people, mostly young girls, and is a signpost for their youth. There are strong and talented women I know that refuse to watch this again because they know they will cry .
@@williambowman2326 the body is the one that is hard for me to watch. Those scenes are precious and meticulous and so well acted. Its too intense and feels completely real.
@@drewrayg That’s in a separate category that is retired for that 42 minute masterpiece.
i can't believe he guessed the big angel=mayor plot twist
Isn't it amazing how often they guess right? 😀
Cool reaction. They had already been picked up for S3, so they absolutely knew they'd be back. In fact, they were busy building their own backlot of downtown Sunnydale, which would debut in S3 as the network (the WB) gave them a much bigger budget based on the S2 ratings. The show had become their tent pole. They would also switch from 16mm to 35mm film and the effects take a big step forward.
Interesting to see reactors who actually support Xander lying to Buffy and not delivering Willow's message. I think that's a first.
I was pretty certain Joss said they weren’t sure if they were getting a season 3. That he wrote most season finale’s as final episodes (except season 4 & 6’s because he knew they had one more season).
@@RedundantHuman-CandyBites It’s hard to know the truth when hearing Joss Whedon talk about back scene hijinks and choices. His versions change, his memory seems to get clouded, and details that involve money differ with the listener’s and interested people. Sometimes you have to piece together what executives, actors, agents, and the show production team said and state afterwards to piece together reality.
@@williambowman2326 yeah, totally. I wasn’t there. 🤗👍🏼
ahhhh Drusilla is sooo scary I love her 😭🥰
This was groundbreaking TV story telling. Future Showrunners used Buffy S2 as the template to copy for what followed on FX, HBO and today’s streaming shows.
They all copy Buffy but do it so much worse
Mikey: The fish episode that you weren't there for...
Mike: I hate fish people.
I love that you say it every time that episode is brought up, lol. 🤣
He really likes kobolds tho
@@732ReviewCrew 🤣🤣🤣
Oz was introduced in Inca Mummy Girl. He was in the band at the dance at the Bronze, and he sees Willow in her Inuit costume and says, "Who is that girl?"
Actually Whedon knew they were coming back and understood unless the ratings crashed, he could go 3 more seasons. He had options for further years but he had the control. The network had a cash cow in Buffy. The move to Tuesday and the great demo ratings for the night put the WB over expectations. Ask most kids from the era and they will tell you Tuesday is Buffy night.
The network wanted Whedon to produce another show. He had Angel in mind but the network was unsure. After the executives saw the scenes between SMG and David B in I Only Have Eyes For You, they agreed David B could carry the show. After the WB gave Whedon the money( it was always money that caused back scene problems) he approached David B about the spin off just before filming started on Becoming,Part 1.
I can not explain properly how many people, mostly girls, cried at the end of the episode and the rest of the night. The tragedy and what I heard…. Why did he get his soul back??!!! They got their Angel back and then Buffy killed him. All I heard for weeks was…. Poor Buffy, she must be devastated. The ending was pure tragedy. Not just standard but almost mythic Greek Tragedy
Really excellent reactions all season. Your observations and theories are enjoyable and so similar to the way we talked during and after episodes. Finally, BTVS is unlike every other show you will watch. This is not written with several episodes or a season has the final conclusion.Every year has individual stories, personal experiences, and an arc to the season but there is an overarching narrative that is not restricted to normal entertainment. There are events, people, plots, and moments that have impact in the future and that can be many episodes, seasons, and years later involving events and people not yet known. To understand the brilliance of the series I urge people to listen again to Whistlers narration at the start and end of Becoming Part 1 after the end of Season 6. It’s like when you rewatch the very first scene of Buffy having her first prophetic dream , you realize that most all of Season 1 is prophesied. This is not in any way a spoiler. It’s a suggestion to sit back and be entertained. Just like you can’t predict a great epic novel, you can enjoy the ride of a well crafted story. With Buffy, all will be explained… just not on your timeline. The underlying ideas and concepts will play out after you watch and digest. That does not happen immediately. But what does happen is that each episode will have action , humor, characters you care about, and the desire to entertain. Glad you enjoyed Season 2. But this was just the opening hill on the Buffy roller coaster. Good luck and thank you for your reactions to the first 34.
Oh man, I couldn't agree more! Every time I watch reactions to BTVS I'm so jealous that I can't go back in time and watch it for the first time! On the other hand, watching it through the eyes of different reactors is so satisfying and does give me the feeling sometimes of watching it for the first time, albeit through their eyes. 😃
That's why the sign at the end says "Come back soon!"
Lots of fans wanted him to get his soul back I’m sure… what else is a nice showrunner to do? 🧞♂😈
The next season, everything gets even better. Season 4 to 7 were my favorite😍
They knew they would be coming back. This was the season they shot up in the ratings midseason with the 2 part surprise/ innocence combo and that carried through to the end. No question they were not coming back. They were discussing spin-off plans at this point actually.
This finale will never not be heartbreaking =(
Poor Buffy. And poor Angel, he gets his soul back just to be stabbed by the love of his life and then dragged into hell...
Also, "How do they drive in that vehicle?" My guess is Spike doesn't care if he runs over a dog. Or a child. He is, however, quite a hypocrite. If he reallly didn't want this world to end, he would have stayed and helped Buffy. But... he just wants to take Dru, and of course, she doesn't get a say in it. Poor Dru.
If you guys still want to watch the Buffy movie, I think right here, after this finale, is a good place for it, cause now you know enough about our Buffy, that the movie won't be confusing. However, let's be honest, the movie is pretty bad. Just feel free to laugh at it, and then forget it.
Spike was being honest about liking this world. Left to his own devices, he would choose this world. Given the choice between being with Dru or being in this world: he chooses Dru. For him, it's not worth the risk of being killed or losing Dru to stick around. Also, Dru wanted to wake Acathla quite a lot & he wants to make her happy. As long as he has Dru he's pretty much indifferent to most anything else. It was also a sales pitch to Buffy. He needs her as much as she needs him & talks her into teaming up, but he has no intention of taking any unnecessary risks. Spike acts purely out of enlightened self interest. ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
I'm pretty sure they approached each season and season finale as though they might not get another season which is why this episode felt like it could be a series finale. This way you would feel closure if the show didn't come back for another season.
After S1, it was picked up for 2 more seasons.
They were definitely picked up for at least 1 or more seasons well before this finale. And her friends go patrolling with her and they all live in the demon capital of the world. She didnt' leave to protect anyone. She left because she was severly traumatized, multiple times in the span of about 3 or 4 hours.
Not just the last few hours. Think about her life since her birthday. It has not been a happy Springtime and then this night from hell is the exclamation point to a Junior year of horrors.
@@williambowman2326 true. That night was a lot on top of that. Also, she was a wanted fugitive, which I always forget.
I agree with Mikey, this really felt like one of those "If we don't get renewed, this is a good leaving off point" type season endings. we have to remember, just because we know Buffy was a popular series, doesn't mean it's a given they were renewed.
you know, the RPG really was a cool moment, and meeting Spike, Drusilla and Oz? season 2 was lit!
Yeah Drusilla was an amazing introduction.
spike is the chaos of life, most dont get him and some hate him, but i love the off the wall things he does lol.
Spike is a joyful villan.
He's not a sympathetic villain, he knows he's the bad guy and just enjoys it.
Same reason why my favorite villain is coming soon.
I never understood how you could choke out a being that doesn’t need to breathe 😉
You stop the blood pumped from the nonbeating heart, from not flowing to the brain.
There's different types of chokes that don't require cutting off air to make someone blackout...
“Buffy, A Vampire Slayer” just doesn’t have the same punch as a title
The Slayer of the Vampires, however... :p
In this finale, Buffy is faced with the choice of killing her lover to save everyone else she loves, or save her lover but sacrifice everyone else she loves to hell. This is similar to her choice at the end of the 1st season in Prophecy Girl, where she can save her own life, but let everyone else die. Or she can sacrifice her own life to save everyone else. Finally we see the mirror of the choice Buffy makes in Ford. He could have accepted his fate and died, but all his friends wpuld live. Or he could sacrifice his friends to get what he wants. To get life. The choices we make are what separate the villains from the heroes.
Yaass Drucilla. I love her and glad you love her too
OK, I've seen this episode more times than I can count and I have never paid attention to the key and blood thing with Angel. Its almost like they're trying to tell us something.
It's always about blood.
@@PromptCriticalJello Its a good thing to keep in mind in an upcoming season! 🙂
It’s an easily overlooked point in 2 episodes that should be rewatched and closely listened when Whistler is speaking. Just like the first scene we see Buffy, her prophetic dream lays out all of Season One. These 2 episodes in dialogue and actions make the title multi dimensional and cunning.
Such a great finale, enjoyed your reaction/discussion...no spoilers though about what theories are right, close, or way off. Love the Dru appreciation. Looking forward to season 3.
22:47 Nope. Different dudes.
Update: OK, now I'm looking forward to “Lovers walk”
Update 2: no, Oz was introduced earlier, I think in the episode “Inca Mummy Girl”.
Not me. Graduation.
Yes Oz first showed up in Inca Mummy Girl.
Band Candy is the next one i'm really looking forward to.
Buffy was picked up for 2 more seasons after S1. That's why this season ends on a cliffhanger.
The show wasn't in any danger of cancellation at this point. You will see in S3 that a lot more money got pumped into the show. It was roughly in S4 going forward where cancellation was a constant threat.
They spent most of the shooting season not knowing if the show was going to be renewed. The episodes were already essentially written and all but the last few had wrapped up filming by the time renewal notice came from the studio. So, yes, the season two finale, like the season 1 finale, was written to also potentially be a seriews finale. They made a few subtle script changes to those final epiosdes once renewal was announced to lay some groundwork for the coming season, bit didn't change the basic structure of the final two-parter.
After S1, the show was picked up for 2 seasons.
Iconic ending and a lot of memorable scenes. Not the best season due to some stand alone episodes but one the best for the narrative arc. This show is now iconic and season 3 confirms it.
The end of the second season is actually a great time to watch the movie. You have enough knowledge now of the series that you can see where it diverges, it's not cannon so it's not like any spoilers or anything, but it is a lot of fun for a campy, cheesy 90s horror comedy.
They can also appreciate how much better season one is...one man's opinion.
It's funny that you guys didn't know that the Angel show is a prequel.
Some problems with Xander lying to Buffy about what Willow said.
1) He lied because he wants Angel gone for personal, selfish reasons.
2) He didn't trust Buffy to do the right thing regardless, despite her doing so time after time. She faltered once, in the mall. That's it. We don't know how Buffy would have handled it if she knew, but he should have trusted her.
3) Because of what Xander said, Buffy now believes that even Willow had jumped on the "kill Angel" bandwagon.
What does she have to stay in Sunnydale for?
She feels guilty for what happened to her friends and Giles, her mother kicked her out, she's wanted by the law, she's been expelled from school, and she just 'killed' Angel, the love of her life, and sent him to hell - except that she didn't actually kill him, because the sword didn't pierce the heart, and if it had it wouldn't have killed him anyways because it wasn't wood and Angel didn't turn to dust... And she's a teen, lots of hormones, not yet mature, and feeling overwhelmed. Running away makes sense.
Xander has a history of not owning up to his mistakes - I doubt that he's told the gang that he lied to Buffy. Also, I HIGHLY doubt that he thought about that in advance - if he had, he could have simply said nothing at all. He started to tell her what Willow said, then at the last second he hesitated and then lied. That wasn't a strategic decision. That was pure hatred for Angel, which is consistent for Xander, with his "all vampires are bad" attitude ever since Jessie turned to dust in his arms, essentially.
I like Xander as a character, even as I dislike some of his actions. And he loves Willow as his best friend since they were 5 years old.
Spike is probably my favorite character that isn't part of the core group, but Drusilla is rightbup there too. I loved that he was honest with Joyce, "you hit me with an axe one time" - I think he truly respects Joyce for that. Giles is my favorite core character, maybe because I'm old too.
She would have been dead had Xander told her about the spell the writers said so.
@@lance9249 and the writers can say that to justify Xander lying; however, they wouldn't have to write it that way, that's just the rationale they came up with.
I disagree that it wasn’t a strategic decision. He went with the intent to convey Willows message. When he reached Buffy he saw her determined mental state and did not want to compromise it before the battle. So yes he choose to reinforce it. We saw him do something similar in ‘never kill a boy on a first date’ when Willow wanted to tell Buffy Owen was not dead and Xander hushed her so Buffy could channel her anger into action.
Sure he dislikes Angel. But Despite his flaws, Xander’s priority is always to protect those he loves first. So the reading that Xander’s lie was mainly some kind of bitchy backstab just doesn’t ring true. And was never the writers intent. If it would have helped Buffy win he would have delivered the message as originally intended.
Xander's decision here has nothing to do with a clear mind on Buffy's part. He never wanted to save Angel. So he didn't tell what Willow told him to tell, because of that. If Buffy knew she would have a clear mind too ! She just would have had a different plan to fight them.
I actually resent Xander for making that decision. He went against Willow, Buffy, Giles, Jenny... and condemned Angel as much as Angelus... It was a shitty move. Especially with how things go in the end.
Except regardless of her plans or intent, that battle couldn't have gone differently. Watch it again and think "what if Buffy had an entirely different plan" It still would have ended with Angel pulling the sword as he intended. If she was slower everything would have been worse. For everyone.
@@Sytrylt Xander is the worst!
@@scottrabie Yeah if Xander had told what Willow was doing, Buffy probably would have died from holding back. She already almost got a sword through the face from fighting to the death. If she would have held back or tried to stall in this fight, we probably would have the world sucked into hell with Angel coming to with a dead Buffy at his feet as it happened...
The writers said had Xander told Buffy about the spell Angel would have killed her. Xander once again saved the world.
@@lance9249BS. Xanders a selfish jealous annoying prick!!
A large part of a the fandom HATES that Xander lies to Buffy. It's really refreshing to see people who get his perspective, that he might not be awful for not telling her. It was literally an apocalyptic situation and giving Buffy hope that she still might be able to save Angel might distract her from the more important goal - saving the world. The stakes were the world and it makes sense for Buffy to not have doubts. And I can see the other perspective, that Buffy should have all the info. It could've been the right thing to do, to save the world. Or it could have been a mistake. Regardless, I'm not too hard on Xander - he literally left the hospital, still injured, to help rescue Giles and possibly get through supernaturally strong vampires to do it. He's also just a teenage boy, so I cut him some slack.
Buffy coming out to her mom as a vampire slayer is a metaphor for a child coming out as gay to their parent(s). If you look at Buffy's mom's reaction, that was pretty much (and sadly still is) the type of reactions that kids got from their parent(s) when they came out.
Oh wow
@@streetfightervsxenoverse1832That escalated quickly.
@@migmit I reported the comment as hate speech.
@@maruskaehrensdorfer Strange that I completely forgot about that option. Thank you.
Being the I’m gay talk with a patent was how we understood the interaction when this aired. It may be primarily about sexual preference but it also touches on the painful difference/ discourse between the child that wants to take a different path than the parent understands. The scene was very important to us back then.
Mike, beach episodes are about Fish people!
LOL
Great reactions. Even your wackiest comments. Can’t wait to see you in S3 as the gang grows up and continues their journey above the Hellmouth.
I gotta say I appreciate the stance on Xander’s decision to keep Willow’s plan a secret, it’s very controversial in the fandom. But seconding a lot of the comments, the ‘have you tried not being a slayer’ read a very different way to the queer audience.
Some ideas(y'all may have seen some):
Movies:
Eurotrip
Road Trip
American Pie(1,2,3, Band Camp, Reunion)
Jay And Silent Bob Strike Back
National Lampoons Van Wilder
My Boss's Daughter
National Lampoons Going The Distance
Wedding Crashers
Sex Drive(R version. Unrated is actually a garbage version. Trust)
The Girl Next Door
National Lampoons Barely Legal
National Lampoons Dorm Daze
Kill Bill
Saving Silverman
There is something about Mary
Mallrats
Dogma
Good Will Hunting
The Accountant
Gone Girl
Pulp Fiction
Varsity Blues
Lone Star State Of Mind
Dodgeball an underg story
Just Friends
Meet the parents
The Rundown
Shanghai Noon
Shanghai Knights
The Tuxedo
The Medallion
Joker
Captain Fantastic
Hanna
Wild America
Without a Paddle
Man of the House
Grind
Scouts Guide to the zombie apocalypse
Ready or Not
Abigail
The Scream franchise (at least 1-3)
Friday the 13th(2,4,6,7,8,X, Freddy Vs Jason)
A nightmare on elm Street (1,3,4, A New Nightmare)
Tv:
Haunting of Hill House
Midnight Mass
Smallville
Kyle XY
Castle
Mentalist
Charmed
This is awesome thanks
They didn't use Kendra enough. Maybe one or two more episodes would have been nice. And the Buffy-Mom tenson they built the whole season just for this episode. Just so it could be one more feather to help break Buffy. Always love the line of "Did you try not being the Slayer?" Season 1 was very much a test the waters and see if people liked the show season. Another thought: What if after getting his soul back, Buffy told Angel about the situation as the demon started to open up. In a heartbeat he would have said to sacrifice himself to save the world. But that was not the emotional impact they were going for. Sure, Buffy would have been wrecked but not suffering from the guilt of killing him.
Oz was introduced in the mummy episode.
If you want to have a depressing ending use a Sarah McLachlan song.
How do they make the Angel show? A lot of flashbacks and hell dimensions.
Have faith that there will be another slayer.
5:14 that cut was very "Whedon-esk" 😂😂😂. Buckle up, you're going to have a love/hate relationship with this show.
*I will always stand by the fact that Xander did the right thing!
I would do exactly the same thing in his shoes.
1. The fate of the entire world was at stake. Full on apocalypse! No hand holding, no second chances.
2. Buffy had proven time, and again, she was struggling to deal with Angelus due to unresolved feelings and struggling to separate Angel and Angelus. Which is understandable given the circumstances.
3. Willow was still a novice witch attempting a spell she had NEVER tried before. A spell that was stated to be incredibly difficult to perform even for accomplished witches.
4. Willow failed the first time due to the attack/ambush, which resulted in her stay in the hospital. End result: A COMA as a result of a very serious head injury. Willow still wanted to try the spell again even though she was incredibly weak from just waking up.
5. Xander was against the second attempt. Because he worried about her health and didn't want her hurt even more. He also didn't think she would succeed due to her injuries. (As stated in the show)
6. Buffy was struggling to fight Angelus anyway. So I wonder what would have happened if she held back.
7. Angelus had pulled the sword just as Buffy showed up anyway.
then you, also, should have been kicked out of the scooby gang after this season.
@@sirmoonslosthismind k bud
Buffy had to kill the person she loved, her mom kicked her out and told her not to come back....it is a wonder she did not self delete
Mike, Joe, and Mikey please react to the 1992 "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" prequel comedy vampire film, staring Kristy Swanson as Buffy, Donald Sutherland as Merrick Jamison-Smyth, and Luke Perry as Oliver Pike when you can. Thanks.
( the film is 86 minutes )
We'll discuss it, it's been on the radar. Maybe it would be fun to watch after the finale of the final season.
You can now, but maybe you're better off not.
If/when you do watch it, just take it for what it is - it isn't completely canon for the show, which is why folks said not to watch it earlier. But I like it as a fun guilty pleasure.
The conversation between Buffy and her mother about being The Slayer was written to parallel coming out as gay, with many of the same parental reactions: "Are you sure you're a vampire slayer? Could you try not being a slayer?" and the comment about not having a "strong father figure." Sucks.
People dump on the movie, but i really enjoyed it growing up. Heathers meets Lost Boys.
Some interesting takes on the slayer lineage here.
Joe is right....Mikey needs to quit with the meta. No one knows about the Angel show at this point! But on a related note, are you guys going to watch "Angel" congruent to watching Buffy, so that you see it as Joss Whedon intended? I mean, I'm not saying anything, but shows like these that run parallel to each other offer opportunities to have, say, shared storylines. Of course, I'm not saying anything now and I didn't say anything then..
Yes! We will be.
@@732ReviewCrew Can't wait for that! You guys are in for a good ride.
@@732ReviewCrew There is a reactors guide somewhere for Buffy and Angel. Angel was on Tuesday nights after Buffy. The guide will help with the storytelling sometimes and you will have the same impact we had watching.
@@williambowman2326 we will find it and check with our discord community to make sure it correct
@@williambowman2326The reactors guide also help with keeping the flow of storylines and episode arcs (grouping episodes of their respective shows to be watched together) instead of simply watching the airing order of going back in forth one at a time...
I think this season they did know they were going to another season, it's why it doesn't wrap up in a happy bow like Season 1
Any Bioshock fans amongst you? Drusilla (Juliet Landau) voiced the Little Sisters
Woah!! Gonna have to replay it
I was in the morrrment 🥰
Yeah gotta do a reaction to the movie next! Ideally it would have been seen before end of season 1 but now is still better than never or later.
The movie is not a prequel and it is not canon
Also, it doesn't exist, and you can't convince me otherwise.
@@migmit A healthy attitude and the way I feel about Alien 3.
@@corgiluver9718 And the way I feel about Star Trek Discovery...
@@corgiluver9718 I love Alien 3
every season except season 4 was made with the possibility of it being the last.
Well, obviously this just makes sure there would be no “Angel” spinoff.
You and i both know that "Angel" is a sit com set in hell where Angle and The Master are an odd couple living together and high jinx ensues.
@@PromptCriticalJello Spoilers!
What I love is the Dick Van Dyke dance off during the musical episode.
@@windyhawthorn7387 But the show really started to drop off after the episode where Angel does the flaming ski jump over the giant demon shark.
@@PromptCriticalJello that one was just a crazy dream he had! For me the last straw was when he joined the ballet company - tai chi just isn't good training for the ballet! But performing in a tutu - how did Giles predict that in this very episode?!? 😳
They never knew if they were going to get another season. The ratings were good, but the writers never trusted to that.
The movie isn't canon. And she didn't burn down the gym. Don't worry about the film being connected. RIP Donald Sutherland, who was in it.
Pretty sure the first episode mentions that Buffy burned down the gym. In the scene with the original principal while they were talking about Buffy's permanent record.
@MsAliciaRL Yes, the show says it, repeatedly. The movie doesn't have a burned down gym.
You're well enough informed now to take a peek at the Original Buffy Movie now, If you had seen it first you would have always questioned every series character's development and not appreciated how very well crafted the show is. Now, you can appreciate everything they fixed in the series (decisions which just didn't work well in the movie).
Right. Now is generally the best time to watch the move, now that they showed the backstory of Buffy getting her calling while in L.A. at school.
The reaction to Spike uncomfortably sitting next to Joyce is one of the best moments in the episode.
I disagree this is an ending they wrote because they didn't know they would get another season. This is a cliffhanger all the way because Buffy leaves town; some could easily not view it that way and see a finale of it in the same vien as S1 was, but I see it as a cliffhanger.
"Have you tried not being a slayer" and "It's because you didn't have a strong father figure, isn't it" are both said before Joyce tries to understand what a slayer is. Similar to a parent not caring to comprehend a child who is LGBTQ (although at the time it would have just been gay, but that's beside the point). And when she claims to want to know, she isn't actually listening to Buffy. Buffy would have tried to explain later, but she is a seventeen year-old girl with the weight of the world on her shoulders, who has an immediate job to do, who just heard her mother kick her out of the house. Whether Joyce meant it or not, Buffy was upset enough at the words to take it literally, which is why Joyce shouldn't have said it (it doesn't help that she physically tried to man-handle Buffy just before she said it, either), whether in desperation to keep Buffy there or whether she meant it, it was bad parenting and falling flat on the dismount rather than shaky like she stated in _The Witch._ Mike's joke moral should be Joyce lesson, in my opinion, even if she tries to claim she didn't mean it. The outcome is on her.
"Willow said kick his ass" after saying, "Yeah well she's dead" about Jenny to Giles an episode earlier. Neither of these things makes Xander look good. He has clear Angel issues and is using Angelus as a reason to fuel them. He wouldn't have used Willow's name if he knew saying, "Willow said kick his ass" was a good idea. Using Willow's name makes it harder for Buffy to trace to Xander, and she would blame Willow should she ever question it. I have seen people use the excuse that he decided in the moment to lie, but that doesn't make what he does better. If anything it only proves he doesn't trust Buffy. Which is the main excuse I have seen people give about Xander in that situation. The problem I have with that is Xander has seen evidence that it's false. Buffy's arc during the Angelus storyline has her learning to deal with her feelings and issues concerning Angel:
1. In _Innocence_ she tells Angelus "Give me time." If _Becoming_ happened next, I would agree with Xander a little more, but it wasn't next.
2. In _Phases,_ dealing with Oz's werewolf issue allows her to start the "time." She is nowhere near ready yet as Angelus "sends his love" with a vampire in the form of a classmate and Buffy freezes. So if _Becoming_ happened here, I would also agree with Xander a little more; but again, it wasn't next.
3. In _Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered,_ Xander's not dating Cordelia - love spell issues allow Buffy a break from Angelus' Valentine's Day plans. Buffy also starts reading up on Angelus' past. Xander being aware she researches Angelus means I disagree with Xander thinking Buffy isn't moving forward in being more ready than before.
4. In _Passion,_ Xander says he deserves something for telling his friends he told them so before Angelus showed up. As said before, and this shows, Xander is using Angelus as an excuse for his Angel jealousy, and in claiming he is correct about Angel being at fault for Angelus' actions. He is blinded to the fact that Buffy has come another step closer to being able to deal with Angelus because he feels justified in Giles "getting himself killed" being a good thing, not realizing, in anger over Jenny's death (anger that becomes meaningless in _Becoming Part 1_ when he says "Yeah well she's dead" to Giles), the fact that Giles will die if Buffy isn't ready to confront Angelus herself. So, once again, I disagree with Xander.
5. In _Killed by Death,_ Xander witnesses Buffy hunting for Angelus while sick. That is enough to disagree with Xander. Doing so while sick wasn't a good idea, but it showed determination proving another step closer.
6. In _I Only Have Eyes For You,_ Buffy releases everything holding her back by dealing with her guilt over turning Angel into Angelus. One step further away from the Xander's theory.
7. In _Go Fish,_ Buffy takes Angelus on and only doesn't kill him because he throws Gage at her. Xander doesn't see this one, but it shows she is actually ready and no longer just getting ready.
8. In the previous episode, Xander has issue with Jenny Calendar having come close to restoring Angel's soul and everyone (not just Buffy) deciding to try re-ensoulment before attempting to kill Angelus, and he shows his opinion negatively (as opposed to Kendra who expresses the exact same opinion healthily). He had listened to Buffy say she was "done waiting" and therefore reacts badly to their safer idea over trying his _taking on an evil vampire to kill him_ plan. No one with either opinion could have known what the outcome would be.
9. In this episode, Buffy is ready and has been so for two episodes. She isn't aware the spell is being recast after it was interrupted. But Xander still chooses to distrust her. Said distrust is another one of my issues against Xander. Misplaced distrust, as over nine episodes she has moved from not dealing with it to ready to kill and he is still dealing with his own issues of jealousy towards Angel.
Xander is really saying, "Willow said kick his ass," out of jealousy all while limiting information to Buffy, who is about to go to the front lines of battle. Even if you don't know the outcome, not telling someone part of the plan is a bad idea. We don't know what the outcome would have been if Xander had told Buffy the truth, although I believe a battle plan could have changed with the trurh (an example being Buffy could have made sure to keep Angel distanced more from Acathla [and surprised him upon entry] rather than worry about his minions) but we do know going into battle without all the information can hurt and this battle had a bad outcome.
David Boreanaz's stunt double during the sword fighting, to me, is more noticeable here than any other noticeable stunt double moment.
The steps on Buffy’s journey to killing Angelus is spot on. When we watched this originally. We all agreed that Xander was a jealous jerk. It’s a moment that will not have a definitive answer . It depends how people view Xander overall. The bottom line is that Buffy has been going through a journey to discover her moral and ethical values and the impact the choices made have on her and those she cares about lives since Lie To Me. To embrace with certainty of conviction difficult morally ethical choices has been a major part of the story. It’s a step by step journey that is what makes her character unique and compelling. This also sets up her growth to becoming a strong, independent, morally centered, and loving mature woman. I applaud your response .
Xander’s primary intention in lying was to not undermine Buffy’s resolve to deal with Angelus. Sure if Angel falls out of the equation no skin off his back. Xander wants to protect his friends he’s not a mustache twirling bad guy.
@@LLLLLL-wp9bz Undermining Buffy and not trusting her are two different things. He underminded her because he distrusted her. Wanting to protect his friends doesn't mean he isn't undermining Buffy out of jealousy towards Angel and distrust Buffy cannot do the job. Especially if there's no skin off his back if "Angel fall(s) out of the equation." It all fits together into Xander's personality.
I never stated Xander was a mustache twirling bad guy. He doesn't have to be evil to be doing something wrong with his lie to Buffy: "Willow said kick his ass."
Also as I stated to William Bowman's comment when he replied to you, Xander's job of getting Giles to saftey was not his primary objective. Buffy told him to do that once he arrived. He showed up, though, because Willow told him Buffy needed to know the spell was being tried again, and Xander decided to limit that information, which may or may not have been useful to Buffy, but it wasn't his decision to make. Buffy being on the front lines of battle made it her decision what to do with that information. Xander was only as close to the battle as he was because Willow asked him to go tell Buffy the spell was being retried, which he didn't do. None of any of what we talked about makes Xander a bad guy. It makes him human. If you agree Xander did the right thing, that is perfectly fine. I never will, though.
@@LLLLLL-wp9bz Like life, not all actions that have consequences are answered. The whys, hows , and motivations for Xander not telling Buffy can only be guessed with no definitive answer. Xander will not do anything to place Buffy in danger and tries to do what’s best from his perspective That’s the unanswered question of what did Xander think was best. Bottom line was that he got Giles out and to safety. That was his main job that Buffy gave him to accomplish and he did that very well.
@@williambowman2326 Xander's job of getting Giles to saftey I disagree was his primary objective. Buffy told him to do that once he showed up. He showed up because Willow told him Buffy needed to know the spell was being retried. And Xander decided to limit information that may or may not have been useful to Buffy. His primary objective was telling Buffy Willow was doing the soul restoration spell again. Not doing so wasn't his decision to make. Buffy being on the front lines of battle made it her decision. He was only as close to the battle as he was because Willow asked him to go tell Buffy information he didn't tell her. None of this makes Xander a bad guy. It makes Xander a human. I disagree with his decision no matter the reasons behind it for that reason. I should have put that in the main comment.
Whedon was never sure if the network was going to renew the show so the season finales can be taken as series finales, especially season 5. Season 5 (no spoilers) was marketed as a series finale, but the show was picked up by another network so thankfully season 6 and season 7 happened.
At 13:50 you correctly guess Xander isn't going to tell Buffy that Willow is going to try again. You were so adamant that she needs to focus ("Eyes on the prize"). When Buffy gets to Angel she attacks, is hit by another vamp, kills him quick and Angel has already grabbed the sword. She has no time to stall Angel to wait for a possible spell.
There are so many fans that are angry at Xander for the end of all time for that moment. Xander potentially saved the world right there, but many, many, many reactors HATE Xander for being the lowest slime on the planet, and I don't agree. You are right!
I agree, what Willow did, just made it so much harder for Buffy to do what she had to. But Will never gets called out by the fans because we love her. Xander gets all the hate, so those of us who like him get relegated to the corner. Xander makes a LOT of bonehead decisions, but Will makes a few too.
@@PromptCriticalJello How is it boneheaded of Willow to try the curse to stop Angel from activating Acathla? Stopping that is literally the main agenda to save pretty much the entire world. Not to mention stopping soulless Angelus from doing any more harm even if he wouldn't succeed in sucking the world into hell. Buffy having to sacrifice Angel just as he got his soul back was very unlucky timing, and of course not at all what Willow intended, or could have predicted happening. Xander on the other hand deliberately withheld important information entrusted to him, likely out of selfish motives.
And I disagree with the OP. If Buffy had that information, she might have had an entirely different strategy going into the fight. Knowing there was a chance to get Angel back any minute would of course have made a huge difference. Sure, she still might have failed to delay Angel, but how would Willow or anyone have known that beforehand?
Out of all the bad decisions Willow makes, I really don't see how this could be counted as one. Especially when compared to the one Xander made here. Did Xander save the world by manipulating the situation? Who knows, but it certainly wasn't something he did knowing the outcome, so it would have been a purely accidental effect by an entirely otherwise motivated lie. Is that really worth applauding?
@@jarvivuori Because of Willow, Buffy had to send the love of her life to hell instead of sending Angelus to hell.
@@PromptCriticalJello Ok, it seems to me you didn't really read or understand my comment above. That's fine though.
@@jarvivuori Ok, how about this.
Willow decides to try to cast the spell without Giles there for advice and guidance after he warned her what the dangers of doing it are. She does it without consulting Buffy first. Everyone else in the room thought it was a bad idea. She put on her resolved face and it was going to happen.
The only outcome of her casting the spell when she did was that Buffy got to say good bye to Angel before she had to condemn him to hell.
Oh, and she opened a door that leads to more tragedy later.
She wanted Buffy and Angel to get smoochies. Fine, maybe even noble. But she did something reckless and dangerous. Pretty much a textbook example of boneheaded.
Buffy THE Vampire Slayer, my friends. THE Vampire Slayer. Anyone else is a cheap imitation.
A lot of bad things happen in this two-parter. And most of them I blame on Xander. Hear me out here.
Buffy and Willow find Miss Calendar's Disk. They are talking with the others about the possibility of restoring Angel's soul and then...Xander opens up, spitting venom, not quite shutting it down but its relegated to a "backup" in case Buffy isn't able to kill Angel.
Now, suppose Xander had been reasonable instead of a poisonous little git. They would have had some time to think things through. One of the things to think through is Miss Calendar's death. Why, exactly, did Angel target her. It should be obvious to them that it was deliberately to stop her performing the ritual restoring his soul. The only thing is, she told no one about that so how would Angel know? And that would bring up the thought of Drusilla and her visions. And if she could see that attempt would she not see this attempt? And would Angel not try to stop it? That's all stuff that would fall right out of thinking things through, a thinking things through that didn't happen because of Xander.
Now, given what they figure out from thinking things through, the immolation-o-gram takes on a different light. Buffy wants to stop him from the threatened killing. That's why she went to fight him ("You fall for it every time") only maybe she wouldn't fall for it if things among the Scoobies were a little calmer. Maybe she'd realize that restoring his soul would stop the killings just as effectively if not more so, than fighting him. And that means the focus is on Willow. And having considered that Drusilla was behind Angel becoming aware of the first attempt to restore his soul, they'd want to be wary of her becoming aware again and an attempt being made to stop it.
That puts Buffy and Kendra both guarding Willow. Now, they would be wrong about why an attack would be made on the library, but the result would be that Kendra and Buffy, being in place to guard Willow, would also be in place to guard Giles, the actual target. Would Drusilla's team have been able to overcome both slayers? Highly doubtful. Drusilla fails. She might escape, or she might not. In either case, Giles is not kidnapped and Kendra is not killed. And what follows from those two actions don't happen.
So, had Xander simply been reasonable about Angel the following would not have happened:
Kendra would not have died
Willow would not have been sent to the hospital
Xander wouldn't have had his arm broken
Giles would not have been tortured.
Angel would no longer be trying to raise Acathla so that wouldn't have happened.
Buffy would not be wanted for Kendra's murder.
Buffy wouldn't be actually guilty of resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer.
Buffy would not have been kicked out of her house.
Buffy would not have been expelled (this time--I'm sure Snyder would sooner or later have found an excuse, but it would have been a lot weaker and sooner overcome).
Spike and Drusilla would still have been around, but would they have stayed around? Drusilla's carrying on with Angelus has already created a rift. James Marsters is on record as saying that he played Spike as being attracted to Buffy from the start (which explains why such a badass vampire as Spike keeps failing in his efforts against Buffy--deep down he doesn't really want to kill her). They would probably break up soon anyway so we still get the Spike we see in Seasons 3 onward.
So it all comes down to Xander. And the thing is, Xander doesn't have a lot of excuse. He knows the difference between Angel (with soul) and Angelus (without). "He's not the same guy you knew" (Phases). He just doesn't care. "At the end of the day, I just think you're a vampire." (Prophecy Girl) "I hated Angel long before you guys jumped on the bandwagon." (Passion). And the thing is, he's also a hypocrite. He doesn't want to accept responsibility for what he did during The Pack. Yeah, he only ate the pig, not Principal Flutie, but the only reason he didn't do the latter is that he was too busy trying to commit felony SA against Buffy. Sure, he was possessed and therefore not responsible, but the same is the case with Angel. Angel, without a soul is a demon and Angel, with a soul, is not responsible for what the demon did.
So, pretty much all Xander's fault.
You're jumping a lot of hoops and making a lot of assumptions to blame Xander. Let's keep it simple had Buffy staked Angel instead of kicking him in the groin both Jenny and Kendra and many others like the classmate who was turned to give Buffy a message would still be alive.
You mention The Pack as a dig at Xander as he had any control during the possession proves total bias.
@lance9249 you mean like Angel with soul had any control of what the demon does when the soul is not there? That Xander had no control was the point. He _knows_ the difference. He just doesn't care. Neither, in fact, did the Gypsies. The curse was stupid as a punishment from the get-go. The demon doesn't suffer. The human soul, that had nothing to do with what Angelus did is the one that suffers.
@lance9249 and as for Buffy should have staked Angel in Innocence. Yeah. Given what we've seen in the show so far, yeah. However, she accepts responsibility for that. Indeed, she tends to take blame on herself for things that aren't her fault. That was the whole point of "I Only Have Eyes for you." Buffy takes responsibility. Xander never does.
When we watched this, the consensus was that Xander was a jerk for not telling Buffy that Willow was trying to duplicate the Gypsy curse. Regardless, the bigger question is … Is the final result what was planned? The big picture result is that Al Franken is gone for good and his threat to the world is finished. The evil of the vengeance curse that has engulfed a societal family is also gone from the Earth . And why is Whistler in Sunnydale and spends no time looking for Angel even though he knows exactly what has happened? He’s hanging out at Giles house and only Buffy interacts with him. Strange? And is it odd that it takes the blood of someone special to open up a hell dimension? It’s almost like it was a plan started in 1996 New York and has been playing out since then?
No. Buffy is the Slayer. If it wasn't for her. There would have been no kendra. The older the Slayer is the stronger they are. They usually die before 18. Also buffy the Slayer was about coming out for the 🌈.
Born different. Have to hide it from your parents. When they find out who you are. They reject you. I'm sure buffy at this moment feels like she's the cause of getting her friends killed, her first love she killed. Betrayal. The life of the chosen one. ##theslayerskeeper 👁⚔️🪖