Buffy The Vampire Slayer | "Becoming"...what? Part 1 Doesn't Pull ANY Punches! | *REACTION* 2x21
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- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
- The first half of the season 2 finale and interesting vampire lore to sift through... My review.
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Развлечения
Spike: It's a big rock. Can't wait to tell all my friends. They don't have a rock this big.
Heeeeee. I love his snarkiness. 🤣
The short life of Kendra represents the average life of a slayer, the average life span of a slayer isn't long
Equal to Buffy if Xander hadn't been there.
@@Henrik_Holst It's a good thing that vampires got "breath" after that, lol.
Juliet Landau’s portrayal of Drusilla is perfect. Gifted family
It was a nice touch in the battle at the library, that Kendra went to reach for her stake, and had a panicked expression on her face when she realized it wasn't there, because she had given it to Buffy.
I was just about to comment this! One of my favorite little details that most people miss on the first watch
And that brings me to a certain episode in which Buffy is told "A slayer has to reach for her weapon. Vampires have already got theirs". Also, just brings me to Buffy's fighting style in general, how resourceful she is, how she doesn't really need a stake always to kill vampires. She always tries to be prepared with stakes and holy water and cross and everything when she goes patrolling, but also, vampires kind of find her in all sorts of zany situations, and she breaks a tree branch, or a chair leg, or uses a unicorn horn, or whatever as a stake, because Buffy uses whatever she gets her hands on. Kendra, on the other hand, is more of a traditional slayer. Oh this makes me so sad.
@@asthajindal5275 "Take all that away and what's left?"
"Me"
The guy who told Buffy she was the slayer was Buffy's original watcher- he has no connection to Snyder or Sunnydale. In the movie plot, Buffy's Watcher gets killed by a vampire, the movie is written by Joss however Joss hated how the movie deterred from his vision of what he wanted for Buffy so he distanced himself from the movie and created the show, which takes place after the movie events.
Yeaaaaah I don't know why I mixed their faces up but here we are 😂
@@TylerAlexander Tbf they look very similar
The recently late Donald Sutherland was her watcher in the movie. I still love the movie.
Also, the OG watcher was played by Donald Sutherland, who only recently passed and was am amazing actor. And his main henchman was played by peewee herman 😂
@@kellygilbert736the vampire's main henchman; Rutger Hauer was the big bad of the movie. The Watcher played by Donald S. didn't have a henchman.
Ah yes, Angel's "Irish" accent 😂
The highest of comedy.
No matter how many times I watch the show his "Irish" accent is always the biggest jump-scare of all 😅
😂😂😂
Darla fed Angelus her blood from her breast. Similar to how a child feeds from their mother. Darla was symbolically making herself Angelus' mother.
Building on what you put so well about Angel and Angelus sharing the same unhealthy obsession with Buffy, and how the soul only changes the nature of it… I wanted to add that we see three versions of him in this episode. Liam (human Angel), Angel and Angelus, and each one has a lot of similarities. They all have the same cocky, dry sense of humour. They all have a girl with some kind of power they’re captivated by. And they all have this theme of wanting to ‘become someone’. Liam: wants to live an exciting life-see the world. Angel: to help people, and be counted. Angelus: to be worthy (I.e., purely evil enough), to suck the world into hell. Angel and Angelus even echo that line ‘I want to become…’
It obviously ties into the overall theme of the two parter, but it’s also interesting for thinking about why Angelus acts as if his kills are his art, whereas Spike and Dru just want to have fun. He’s ambitious, driven by higher callings-qualities that you want in a hero and really don’t want in a bad person.
OOO YESSS
Drusila is just the second vampire we see with the power of hypnosis. The only other vampire we have seen with this power is the Master. Back in What's My Line, Kendra said she was sent there because a new Power was rising in Sunnydale, that power was Drusila, and here we really get a sense of why she, above all the other vampires in Sunnydale, would be considered a being with power.
I was always intrigued by the way they used the compelling power on the vampires of this show. Not everyone has it, only a few (more powerful?) ones, what does it mean for them?
I love the timing of the edit “really good voice work” right before “the accent”. Lmao
One thing this show does REALLY well (and I think sets a standard that few other shows attain) is really thorough thematic storytelling through the inclusion of seemingly throwaway single lines of dialogue. Case in point, Oz in the lunchroom scene saying 'I thought it was riveting. I was a little unclear on some of the themes.' (So meta he might as well have delivered it down the lens.) Another great example is the line from Innocence ("It is not justice we serve. It is vengeance,") which does a huge amount of heavy lifting in explaining the curse through the rest of the season.
Point being, the show actively grapples with its own logic. When Angelus first turns in Innocence, we have the interaction with the Judge declaring there's no humanity in him, which is a fairly blatant plot device to reaffirm to the audience that Angel has, indeed, left the building. But what we actually see play out is Angelus' complete abhorrence of, but simultaneous fascination with, humanity - to a far greater degree than it seems to bother other demons. Are love and hate two halves of the same coin? The show certainly frames it that way. Liam/Angel/Angelus are so completely imbued with humanity that none of the alter-egos know what to do with it - Liam is too immature to grapple with it, so he pushes it away; in Angel it turns into self-loathing and martyrdom; in Angelus, rage and disgust.
So to your question about culpability between Angel and Angelus - I think it's more complicated than saying they're two different people. They are two halves of a coin, but the same coin nonetheless. In a way, Angelus is equally tortured by his acts as Angel as Angel is by those of Angelus. To me, the greater theme is the question of how to embrace all parts of oneself (to find balance so that it neither turns inward and twists into something sadistic, nor becomes self-sacrificing or altruistic to an unhealthy degree). It's a very dark take on a 'coming of age' - a foil to Buffy, who must also embrace those conflicting shades of herself. In other words, they are 'becoming'.
All great points and I agree. I don't think they're necessarily two different people, this is a point I bring up as well. I'm torn as to whether they are or are not right now for the reasons I said, and there's evidence that could lend itself any which way.
My question of whether it's the same person affected differently or whether things are added/taken away in that section of the video was intended to raise the argument you've raised, but was ultimately separate from the section that was talking about them being two different people.
When I say in the video they're two different people it's with a very specific context in mind of 'does this punishment fit the crime?' which is a unique scenario apart from the points you raise, in my opinion.
As to Liam/Angel/Angelus and how that all works, I don't think it really matters in the context of the above question. I think we at least know objectively that with his soul he remembers all the acts but he wasn't the one perpetrating them, or at least the one in charge of making the decisions. You can further answer the above question when taking the question of consent into account, as this adds more fodder to answering the above question. This is why I separate Angel and Angelus the way I do in that section of the video as 'separate people', and I think this matters for the question I was trying to answer in that section, but I don't necessarily think they're generally, ultimately, necessarily clean and cut different people outside of this context.
I just meant that with the information we do actually know and with the question I was trying to answer, it's important to take into account that there are fundamental differences between the circumstances and dispositions of the the two that, at least in this context, allow us to judge them as two different people.
@@TylerAlexander For sure, I was more intending to expand on the discussion rather than refute it! That said, I kind of disagree that the question of identity and how that works isn't relevant. I'm also not certain that Angel with a Soul(TM) has no culpability in making those decisions, which is where I was trying to expand the discussion. But I think I'm making this argument in the full context of the entire BtVS universe, so I won't risk getting spoilery.
I'll just add I find your analysis incredibly insightful, and the only RUclipsr who inspires me to comment lol. Thanks for consistently great content.
Angel is not the only one suffering with a soul, Angelus is always in there going stur crazy watching Angel doing good not making people suffer
I agree 100%; Angel is the human who was turned, Angelus is the demon who inhabited his body after he died. Angel wasn’t in control and isn’t responsible for what the demon, Angelus, does but has to live with the memories. His situation reminds me a lot of a particular MCU character who I won’t name in case of spoilers.
I'm so proud of you for recognizing Darla! I know its been a sec but damn, when we're told who sired Angel, that should be noteworthy information!
A moment of silence for SassyPants 😢
17:20: We’d call that consent vs informed consent. Like, someone might consent to having an operation that gives them wings, but it wouldn’t be *informed* consent if they aren’t told all the details and risks (you’re getting mechanical wings, it’ll be a lifetime of pain and difficult maintenance, they won’t actually let you fly, good luck finding a comfortable sleeping position, etc.). It’s a big issue in the medical field(s).
Kendra gave up her lucky stake (there's a moment during the fight where she's clearly looking for it); she basically bequeathed her mojo to Buffy.
Well spotted the characterisation of the vampires in this show. You will notice through the seasons a lot of things about the personalities of the different vampires related to their past lives (especially in the Angel series) that will also explain certain actions that you probably haven't noticed yet in earlier episodes. The personalities are very well fleshed out; especially from the point that Marti Noxon became a writer for the show.
Xander's feelings on stuff would weigh a lot more if they weren't very clearly based on sexual and romantic jealousy. He hated Angel way before he even knew Angelus would exist. And then he would always try to take credit for "knowing" Angel would break bad
I disagree. Both can be true. He can be jealous and legitimately find Angel/Angelus existence to be dangerous. It was already established in The harvest when Jesse dies that Vampires can't be good. Xander has to accept that otherwise he killed his best friend. This point gets reiterated again in Angel when Buffy asks Giles if vampires can be good and he essentially tells her no. When I take this into consideration with the fact that Xander is much more complacent about Buffy dating humans, Xander also grows to be more accepting of Angel (hey Angel is our friend, except I don't like him") and the fact that the dislike seems to work both ways I personally choose to not think of Xander as all that jealous and more so that he has a problem with vampires, in a stricter sense. I also think back to Prophecy Girl when Angel was just going to let the Prophecy ungold and do nothing, and it actually took Xander to convince him for Buffy to be saved. I see that as Xander having the ability to put his feelings aside (especially when it comes to asking the one person he hates for help) to do the right thing. As I say that I realize Xander royally effs up in the next episode. He's far from perfect, but I think he's probably the most misunderstood character on the show.
@@samanthas8340 You know, I never thought of it before, mostly because the show plays it for laughs, but Xander essentially did the same thing to Jesse that Buffy did to Angel, he made the same sacrifice, albeit I guess in his case it was sort of done for him. Buffy gave up her first love for the world, and Xander gave up his life-long best friend for the same cause.
You are completely forgetting the recent episodes
In Innocence, Angelus grabs Willow and is close to killing her
In BB&B, Angelus grabs Xander and is seconds away from killing him to provide a gift for Buffy
In Passion, Angelus kills Jenny
So Angelus tried to kill both Xander and Willow. And the murder of Jenny definitely brings it home to Xander that Angelus isn’t playing around.
I agree, I think sometimes the audience gives too much credit to Xander when they mention Jesse. Xander never mentions Jesse again, not in the hundred episodes, not even once, not even a hint of ‘I had a friend who was turned and it was awful’, nothing, Jesse is all but forgotten after the first two episodes, by all means he never existed. So there’s no reason for people to think that’s the reason he hates vampires. I love this show but I really don’t like the writers choices about this, I wish the writers had specifically have Xander mention Jesse because it makes no sense that he doesn’t. But for the actual context and canon of the show he just hates Angel because he is competition with Buffy, that’s it.
@@moramorandobianchi7093 I mean, Angelus was seconds away from killing Xander a few episodes ago but that obviously is irrelevant to how he feels about
I really love your reactions. You have great insights and really get at the show from a genuinely interesting perspective. There are episodes of this show that I’m now genuinely excited for you to get to someday, particularly because I think you’ll have a genuine appreciation for them on several levels.
Angel in NYC in 1996 is shown getting his "calling" so he can become something and Buffy is shown in Los Angeles getting her "calling" as she will become the slayer. And Willow is also about to become something , like a witch, maybe?
AAA MY FAVOURITE BUFFYVERSE STORY YESS (both parts are incredible)
Great reaction and commentary, looking forward so much to the next part!
Really enjoyed your reaction/analysis to/of this excellent lead up to part 2. I love that they give us the flashback to both Angel and Buffy beginnings. RIP Kendra, I do miss her but there is much good stuff to come.
I would argue the demon Angelus IS getting punished. He's still in there, he hasn't left, but he's not in control anymore. He's forced to feel emotions of regret and remorse that the human, Angel, is feeling. He's there while Angel was falling in love, helping others, being kind and decent. In other words, the gypsies aren't punishing Angel, they're giving him the duty of torturer. Who better deserves to punish Angelus than the guy whose body he stole?
I don’t think they necessarily care who is punished. It’s not justice they serve. It’s vengeance.
Exactly, as Jenny's Uncle said long before Jenny was killed by Angelus!
Angel's punishment by the Romani isn't fair but, in their own words, 'It isn't justice we serve. It is vengeance.'
Consent that isn't informed consent is no consent at all. That said, they've covered previously when Jenny was having doubts that the curse wasn't ever intended to be justice, it was vengeance.
As for Angels punishment, yeah I think its absolutely wrong as well,
Also I find an implication of their magic disturbing personally. They have the ability to give vampires their souls back, and they choose to make it into a curse rather than save countless people from continuing to live as monsters.
Its not Justice they serve it is vengeance
This spell also requires an (implicitly) rare and valuable magical item that vanishes after one use. It's not really workable at scale, because each vampire would require their own orb and you probably can't make those on an assembly line.
@@Talisguy true, but if you find a cure to cancer you dont just hide it if its rare and limited.
Whoever saves one life saves the world entire. But yeah it wouldnt work in mass.
But if Willow can get her hands on whats needed at a local shop... it cant be *That* rare
Cheers for these reactions I really enjoy how you explain what you see and your interpretation of has happened and what is to happen!
I remember watching your first, mid and last reaction vid of buffy and again sooooooo glad you started from the beginning.... I'm unbelievably happy to follow your journey through the buffy series I even find myself awaiting your reaction so you keep them coming and I will be here to like and watch with you cheers m8
I cannot wait for the next ep. :)
Great reaction, as always - looking foward to Part 2!
All the questions about the true nature of vampires in the Buffyverse are good questions. All of them very debatable, and none of them has conclusive answers. But I think is important to understand that a vampire with "his" soul back is actually exactly that: a vampire (demon) with a soul (thus capable of empathy), and not the undead version of the person he was before.
OMG, I have been waiting for this!!! Can't wait for you reaction of part II!
One of the differences between Angel and Spike's gang is they don't have any respect for the master or tradition (as you can see when Spike killed the anointed one and you'll see in the Angel series).
Becoming part 1 was a great lead into the brilliant S2 finale Becoming part 2. So much in this episode to digest. The loss of Kendra, Angel's back story being turned by Darla, and we also see Drusilla being tormented by Angelus in The Confessional. At least the floppy disk has been found, and Willow can now work her magic. We now have the climax to come, and you will not be disappointed a brilliant last episode to come. I think you can now really see how this show engrosses all reactors that enter The Buffyverse! Only downside to this is David Boreanaz's absolutely awful Irish accent!
I can't remember if it's something I've read in the comic or somewhere else, but I believe the 'bloodline' so to say that Angel shares with Darla, Dru and Spike and most importantly the Master is special. They've become a special breed of vampire that's both more 'pure' and somehow more human as well. The only vampires that truly stand out in the show are vampires from that very same source.
The bloodline im talking about btw is: the Master sired Darla, Darla sired Angel, Angel sired Dru and Dru sired Spike.
(this theory falls apart a little though cause later one or more of these sire more vampires and they end up just being extras so yeah... guess u could argue the blood started running thin or something 😂)
Also I just wanna this out there since it seems like you forget but Angels sire (Dexter’s wife) her name is Darla.
Looking forward to watching the rest of your buffy journey. Your quick wit is always a fun to watch. ❤
I'm so excited to see your reaction to part 2!
One thing I wanna say is that while I do see the value in framing all of the events of this show as some sort of representation of the real world and thus teaching the audience certain something, I personally have always had so much more fun taking the world of the show as it is. Treating the characters like they are real people and just taking the story being presented at face value. In that way I think you will be pretty satisfied with the lore behind the vampires Tyler.
My favorite of the season finales. I always do love the Angel flashbacks.
‘Oh Doug.’ I don’t know why I found that so funny. I do like that you were invested in Doug’s story though.
Drusilla has visions because she was originally destined to be a slayer. Whedon confirmed this
Wow. I’ve never heard that before. So cool.
You’re here, can’t wait for part 2 :D
If you’re interested in vampire lore, I HIGHLY recommend watching the Interview with the Vampire series. It’s based on Anne Rice’s novels which Buffy and True Blood both occasionally borrow from.
I've seen season 1, it's a great show! 😄 I was more speaking specifically for the lore in this show though, I feel like there's so much I don't know at this stage 👀 which is all good. Happy to have it unravel over time 😁
The Buffy lore is a bit… looser. Lots of varieties of monsters and the worldbuilding isn’t much of a focus. But BTVS is great at character arcs so at least each individual has their own lore specific to them 😅
Never watched Angel, so maybe they delve into worldbuilding more in that series.
I wonder if vampires that were willingly turned are different to the ones who have it forced on them
Look at your comments section blowing up, good for you! Your thoughts on vampires and the Angel/Angelous thing just makes me excited to see what you get from watching Angel the Series.
Excellent reaction and appreciate your insights. There are many different ways to watch Buffy. There is the weekly entertainment, action , and humor. Another way is to also view BTVS has an epic novel . Like Dickens or Tolstoy, things will happen or take place that will have impact of the top level and underlying issues several episodes and years from now. Events of the present will have impact later. Buffy is like a great magician. The trick has already started , goes on in front of you without noticing, and the you are surprised when the trick completes. The season had 3 important morality lessons for Buffy( Lie To Me, Ted, and I Only Have Eyes For You) The lessons ahead learned and the failures of some of those around her , helped greatly in her ethics and moral development. These 2 episodes are great examples of an epic novel. When you finish Season 6, go back and listen closely to Whistler and watch the episodes and you will understand the fantastic storytelling. It’s not a spoiler because you have to watch it all to understand and absorb. Just like the very first scene of Buffy detailed Season 1, Whistler tells us that life comes at us in many ways that change us and make us who we are. We don’t always see or understand. Thank you for you sharing your thoughts to a great story.
Glad you realised what you were saying about Angel choosing to become a vampire just because he agreed to go with Darla. He had no idea everything he was agreeing to, and I would say it is almost like saying a girl agreeing to being given a lift is her consenting. They both agree to the journey, not the strings attached.
But I did find it really powerful when you were talking about how much Angel did not deserve the curse, how they were punishing the wrong guy. I watch Buffy when it was originally aired, have watched it and Angel multiple times over the last 20+ years, and your observation was the first time I realised this to be true. Never saw that before... huh!
And the lesson is... never give someone else your lucky stake!
About the curse, my way of seeing it is that yes, it's unfair to Angel. His soul wasn't there for any of Angelus did, it's not his fault, and yet, he has to deal with it. But no, Angelus is not gone. He is still in there, as we learnt in "the Dark Age", when he fought the demon that had possessed Jenny. So, the "bad guy" gets punished too, just being trapped in that body, but not in control. And we see in "I only have eyes for you" how disgusted he is when he is forced to feel love, so imagine how he's been doing for a hundred years XD We don't know if the Romani knew that there is disntiction between the two, but the result is unfair either way. And, talking about Angelus, and vampires in the Buffyverse, those are bodies inhabited by demons, so even if the previous life of that body has influence in their behaviour, do keep in mind that there's a demon, and it may be that some demons are more vicious than others, the same way some people are worst than others.
I love everything Dru related in this episode. I wish we'd seen her do her hypnosis thing before, but I really like that cobra snake dance with Kendra.
I think even aside from the ethical side of things, from a tactical point of view, they'd be stupid to not try and use the spell cause like, if what happened at the end of this episode didn't happen, they'd just have neutralised Angelus, got Angel back on side (assuming Spike and Dru don't kill him if the process is obvious) and then just have to deal with Spike + Dru rather than the trio.
As to the "the curse seems very cruel to the human" part, I think in universe the Romani people we see just don't think of the human/vampire split as particularly meaningful, or if they do, they see the human part as acceptable collateral damage, The demon part that did the bad stuff to them is forced into a meat cage and be stuck watching him mope in guilt, sucks for the human obviously but they seem fine with that.
It's a shame we didn't see more of Kendra this season. Essentially, she only pops up here because she's expendable and the story needs a death to up the stakes. There was a lot of unexplored potential with her character.
Meh
This episode really gives you so much in terms of Lore.
Kendra is your typical Slayer. Her life was hard, and her time as Slayer very brief. Timeline wise she lasted a year.
Xander is absolutely driven by jealousy here, it’s less about Miss Calendar & more about the fact that Buffy in some level still lives Angel. (This isn’t the first time Xander has advocated for Angel’s death, even in Season 1 before he’d done anything). It’s not the prettiest look on Xander.
Spike’s little sing-song ‘Someone wasn’t worthy’ still makes me laugh. Great episode with a lot to digest.
Willow's stare at Xander as Buffy leaves after the argument is priceless. She's looking like she's never truly seen Xander before, and really doesn't like what she sees.
One thing I never understood. Why wouldn’t they do stuff at Giles house where vampires can’t enter?
18:15 Well Angelus is there, he's just not in control any more.
I'm always curious if first time viewers will remember Darla. I assumed Tyler would. Most reaction viewers don't.
Xander disliking the idea of restoring Angel's soul isn't the issue I have with him in that moment. It is how he chooses to talk to people. He even starts in on Cordelia before realizing she agrees with him. I lost all respect for Xander when he said to Giles about Jenny, "Yeah, well she's dead." This line is not only rude, but shows a personality I cannot get behind whether I agree with him or not. Plus saying that line is hypocritical of defending her against what he said in _Passion._ If he wanted to get his point across without having an attitude and without being rude he should have followed Kendra's later example when she calmly tells Buffy, "I tend to side with your friend Xander on this one. Angel should be eliminated." Buffy talks to Kendra, but everyone has issues with Xander's attitude. If Xander cannot express his opinions to his friends without attacking them, they won't care what his opinions are, with this or anything else. But Buffy does care about Kendra's opinion enough to explain things to her because Kendra is respectful in her disagreement against Buffy. Xander isn't, and that's one of his biggest follies when things don't go his way.
The writers wrote Kendra into her first episode knowing they planned to kill her off. Bianca Lawson was made avaliable for the time period of the three episodes she was in for the purpose of dying.
Xander happily weaponises other people's pain to try to justify his own outrage, it's a gross manipulative lack of empathy towards his friends. Xander is an unfortunately accurate depiction of someone who is only your friend when they think it's still going to lead to what they want, and shows their true contempt for you the second they think it isn't. He's likeable and affable and harmless-seeming 99% of the time and then he turns on you and bites you.
@@Ylyrra Right. I got into a debate in the comment section with someone a few days ago who loved Xander and for a day just kept telling me my opinion of him being part of the nice guy trope was wrong. But he or she couldn't give me any examples of why he or she thought Xander's positives should outweigh his negatives and go against my theory, as he or she was trying to suggest, but still just wanted to harp on me for an opinion presumed wrong.
I love the way you phrased that btw. Especially the first sentence.
@@Buffy8Fan Yeah, I tend to see Xander much like David from Shaun of the Dead. Just because he mostly shuts up and lets the women around him do the speaking about anything important and only contributes jokes (or whining in David's case), doesn't mean he isn't a misogynistic a-hole when he decides he knows best.
Xander's main virtue is that he's entertaining, which has nothing to do with whether he's a nice person or not. A solid 50% of the time when he has a choice of any consequence (rather than just following someone else's lead) he does not just the wrong thing, but the worst thing. That he sometimes also does the right thing doesn't mitigate that.
@@Ylyrra I agree with most the comment. I disagree that he's entertaining. Very few of his jokes come from a good humored place and actually come more from a place of anger and repressed issues that boil into bad and sarcastic and mean humor with a little good/entertaining humor. And that's just the jokes and his entertain ment level in-universe. You may have been talking about what the audience thinks which is an entirely different sory, but either way, the rest of your comment I agree witrh.
@@Buffy8Fan Yes, his entertainment value as a character is different to his in-universe entertainment value as a person. His sarcastic bitterness and cynicism is a good foil for the other characters, much like Cordelia's more overtly conveyed self-interest and materialism. In practice they'd both be monstrously annoying people to be around.
You are one of the few reactors that have said that Angel deserved to be saved and that killing Angelus is killing Angel too and it was nice to heard cause majority of people after passion they simple dont care and shown the hypocresy of humanity as in "he killed a lot of persons but Ms. Calendar was the breaking point so now he deserved to die" Ofcourse thats the point they wanto to achive but its always nice to see that others see Angel too and not just Buffy.
In Dopplegangland, Angel says vamps retain some of their human traits.
Liam was a hedonist in life, too much partying, too much laziness, too much everything
This carries over to his vamp self.
Too much meanness, too much k*lling, too much everything. He was a hedonistic vamp as well.
Ooo. Can’t wait for next reaction and s3 and then for Angel 😅
And Whistler was showing him Buffy, yea
The master was turned by the first vampire. Darla was turned by the master. Darla turned angel. And angel turned Drusilla who turned spike. As far as vampires go most other vampires are way more diluted but angel darla dresses like spike are almost pure blood almost like royalty they all have more vampiring them
I think when Angel is turned into a vampire. His soul is place into a state of frozen animation. Which leave his physical body as simple a shell. Allow soul or essence of the demon/vampire to take over his body.
16:15 The old man said it "It's not justice we serve it's vengeance"
Ah, this show really does do a good job of making sure the stakes feel real, not the Mr Pointy kind!
I think the Angel cursed for Angelus’ actions is interesting to compare to the idea of a criminal with amnesia - do they deserve to suffer the consequences of events committed before they were the person they became. And I don’t think there is an easy answer. It’s also like thinking back on mistakes we made in our youth. We are different people than we were then - we’ve grown, learned, and changed. The cells in our bodies have died and been replaced. At what point do we stop being that person? If the continuity lives in our memories, then Angel deserves to suffer because he remembers his past actions. If not, where else does it exist?
Interesting commentary, and I like the way the show can still hit you even after seeing the finale.
Also, I love that Darla was basically a throw away character in season one, quickly killed off, and then they get that same actor back - you’ll notice that a lot, and it’s something I really appreciate because it makes the world seem real, like every bit character you meet has been out there living life. They have a past, and sometimes a future, rather than just existing for an episode only.
I was on Xander's side. Angel is still a vampire at the end of the day. He's killed, tortured, turned many people. People want to distinguish Angel from Angelus as if they're completely different people. But they're not. We see Spike who is also a vampire, without a soul, who isn't trying to destroy the world. He doesn't torture people for fun. Darla didn't do these overtly evil things. She was just doing vampire shit. Angel could change back to Angelus again if he has a moment of happiness. Him being good isn't a permanent situation. They also said right before he lost his soul, that he wasn't hurting as bad anymore. His pain over his actions was lessening. That was before his big happy, so...he already was slowly turning back into Angelus just by being with Buffy and doing his good deeds. So, do they just keep cursing him every time he gets a moment of happiness. Which could happen doing something joyous to him. Not just have sex.
My favorite line in the series is in the next episode, it is said by Spike and has stuck with me for 20 years.
He has so many great ones, but my favorite is probably about Happy Meals.
Sometimes they have legs 🫢
2:29 five seconds later "she's doing it _really_ nicely"
6:13 6:22 Yes! It is interesting. It plays into my fan theory that it's a show about different demonic and PTB species, and how they all have their ways of operating and their own types of social relationships. They're not all just *human without any good.
15:55 it's the only version that _can_ suffer because of what he did. Does any of us deserve punishment for things we did when we were other people?
20:00 Yes but Angel is resting in peace now.
I've heard all the other arguments, but nothing explains Xander's motivations more than jealousy over wanting Buffy, no matter who it's directed towards or no matter what his relationship status.
Nice that you remembered the paperweight joke.
In case you didn't realize it, it was Whistler doing the opening narration on the Angel flashbacks not David.
It's definitely influencing his behaviour, but I don't think he's intentionally trying to murder Angel to get him out of the way.
How about he’s worried for his own life and those of his friends. It wasn’t that long ago that Angelus was seconds away from killing either himself or Willow.
@@jspettiferI agree. I'm so over people saying that every little thing he does is driven only by his jealous and wanting of buffy.
You're going to *love* Angel (the show).
For the record, Angel was 17 when he became a vampire. Angel has been 17 for 241 years. And part of the reason that Angelus soul was restored, was because of how dangerous he had become, the tribe hoped that cursing him to remember, after their special girl was killed, that he would feel the pain they felt.
In Angel TV show, we see his funeral. The priest who was giving the eulogy says "a man of just 20 years and 6". So Liam was 26 years old when he met Darla.
@@Morwynion360 Oh, I didn't know that, which episode?
If you're curious, I would suggest maybe watching the movie from 1992. It's a bit silly in comparison to the show, but it's what this old school version of Buffy that Angel is spying on is modeled after.
18:00 min mark - The romani, punished soul angel for his choice of "becoming" a vampire which led to their girls death, and punishment for vamp angelus because like now angel gets to see angelus acts , angelus now has to suffer seeing angels acts and not being able to kill, torture feed
On a different note I wonder if this particular episode is creates the beginning of Willows addiction issues later in the series.
I think the soul leaves to let the demon in so you’re still you just without a reliable moral compass and a demon pushing you to evil. Then the difference would be what kind of person you were in life, your personal traits get twisted and even amoral. Also is your personality strong enough to be in control or is the demon controlling you?
34:22, yes, delicious steaks.
The show has made it clear that who a vampire is, is informed by who they were as a person (Drusila and the book guy killed by the Judge). Angelus is a sadist, and therefore the human who became Angelus is also a sadist, and so is Angel. How that sadism gets expressed changes from human to Angelus to Angel, but it is always there. Angelus acts to cause emotional harm to everyone around him, but especially towards those who fascinate him. It is harder to see in Angel, how he is a sadist, but if you look at his combat banter, and how it is different than Buffy's, you can see it. Buffy's combat banter is lighthearted, punny; said for herself. Angel's combat banter is targeted at his opponent. The words he uses are always designed to attack his opponents' emotional weaknesses. When Angel used Xander as bait in School Hard, he told Xander that if Spike bit Xander that, "Well, then we'd know." That was designed to hurt Xander. Angel put Xander in a precarious position with really little to gain from it, strategically, and afterwards, did nothing to allay Xanders concerns about it, but rather heightened them, and he did that on purpose. The only person who stood to gain anything from making Xander more anxious in that moment was Angel. We can even see it in Angel's first appearance way back in episode 1, "I'm a friend... I didn't say I was your friend," said mockingly. And in the episode 7 "Angel" "Why not? I killed mine," also said mockingly after Buffy's mother was almost killed by a vampire.
To an extent this gets into your question about punishing the human version with the curse, when it was Angelus that did the crimes. The thing is, that the Human, Angelus, and Angel are all the same person. They all have the same memories and the same emotional tendencies. They just expressed them differently. The thing is, that the redeemable nature of Angel, is only possible with the experiences of Angelus. With out Angelus, Angel is just the Human version of himself, a drunken, violent, promiscuous lout who cares little for others, not even his friends. We don't see much of Human Angel in this episode, but we can glean all this from just that one scene. He was leaving the tavern drunk after having been involved in a fight, he abandoned his friend as soon as the friend keeled over, and he went straight for the woman of the night the moment he saw her. And when I say 'woman of the night' I do not mean vampire, because at that moment he did not know what she was when he approached her. Even the way he approached her was meant to be taunting and demeaning towards her, and when she met him back, that is when he became fascinated with her.
I would also say, as far as the curse punishing Angel the souled person, vs Angelus the demon, Angelus is always there in the background of Angel, so one could say, even if one holds that they are separate individuals, Angelus is punished by having to watch all the good things that Angel does, or be punished by being unable to do the bad things that Angel avoided doing.
This is so insightful! What a great comment! I'd not thought about Angel as sadistic before, but you are right, his style of banter is very similar to how my abusive ex was when things were good, before things "turned". Even more reasons for me to love this show!
As for what decides the personality of the vampire.... It's pretty much explained that the person dies and the vampire takes over the vessel so whatever were the natural tendencies of the person comes out in the vampire without any restrictions imposed by society which explains evil Jessie going for Cordelia and also explains romantic spike.
Angel was a cruel person striving to be better but without the soul there was no striving anymore. Spike was a hopeless romantic trying to live up to societies standards but without the soul the romantic parts stays but there is no trying to live up to rules anymore so only violence remains. Jesse was a geek and a loser but also had a crush on Cordelia the crush remains but instead of trying to win her affections he simply decided to take her by force.
I think turning into a vampire removes a person's inhibitions. It's a little similar to being drunk, in the sense that your filters stop working and you do stuff you normally wouldn't. Some people are just regular people when sober but when drunk they get violent or handsy. Not everyone reacts negatively to alcohol, but those who do don't get the blame the alcohol for making them do whichever crimes they committed. (Though sometimes they will try.) Now, the whole thirsting for blood thing probably makes the average vampire more violent that the average drunk human, so it's not a 1:1 comparison. But I think it fits.
When Angel is cursed Angelus does still suffer, though arguably not the way Angel does. And Angel is not Liam (his human self, though Liam is a part of him). When a vampire is made the soul is expelled from the body and replaced with a type of demon. Leading to no conscience, no remorse, and animalistic predation. When Angel is cursed with a soul the soul doesn't replace nor expel his demon, instead both exist within him constantly at war. The Angel we've seen is stronger than his demon and is able to essentially keep Angelus caged within him, but the demon is still there.
You might recall when Jenny was possessed by the demon Giles summoned in his past, and it hopped into Angel's body they said it was defeated because Angel already had a demon inside him looking for a good fight.
I think Buffy and Angel are a very specific kind of unhealthy, whether that was intentional from the start or just something that developed naturally in the course of writing them; Both genuinely care, even love eachother but because of forces outside their control they just do not have positive impacts on eachother when together romantically. No matter how hard they try they are a toxic combination, but not in the normal way shows portray. It plays into the idea that love on its own just isn't enough, which is something a lot of media ignores. It adds both a nice layer of tragedy to their story, making them starcrossed lovers that genuinely can never be together because no matter how much they love one another they just aren't good together, and sets Buffy as a show apart from other media like Tiwlight that has similarly toxic relationships but unlike BTVS those works just pretend it's actually healthy.
Angel has an obsession for Buffy. He wants to change not for himself but to ingratiate himself into Buffy’s life. Now Buffy. She is a 17 year old suburban girl A handsome predator has his prey a lonely girl, in a new school, from a broken home. She is too young and clueless to understand what real love is for a mature relationship. He starting stalking Buffy a year before they met in the Sunnydale alley. Like any predator he sized up the situation and then when ready went for the conquest. He wanted Drusilla and took his time. He does the same with Buffy but now he can’t turn Buffy so does his human version of conquest.
About the gypsies and the punishment. You have to consider two things.
First. There are only a number of spells you can't just make up whatever you want so the gypsies are using the spells that they know and choosing between them It was probably the best punishment they could come up with.
Second.
Angeles hates with a fiery passion being angel. When angel is moping and crying and trying to be better and feeling sorry for himself and falling in love , Angeles is still in there locked away and he feels everything and he experiences everything he is forced to be human vicariously through being locked away in angels psyche. I think in a way this is the real punishment for Angeles angel is not the one being punished angel is the prison cell and the torture.
Viewed from that perspective it is a brilliant punishment because the demon is forced to have its abilities used for angel being a champion for good and always choosing the exact opposite of what the demon would have.
RIP Kendra 💔🥀
The whole thing with Angel/Angelus/Liam and if they are the same person or not is quite interesting but there are clues and more perpectives given in later episodes that I don't want to spoil. So a little hard for me to discuss, but for me I feel like yes they are different people because Angel sees it that way and separates himself from Angelus as a copingmechanism.
I’ve always seen them as more the same, the separation between Angel with or without a soul is more about people wanting them to be two different people because it makes it easier. Yes, Angel with a soul has more of a moral compass and isn’t a sadistic killer but the personality is the same. With or without a soul we’ve seen him being controlling, stalking, obsessive, jealous and fond of playing mind games. Different actions, different morals but the same personality.
I think the way I think of Angel is as fundamentally a hybrid of the Soul and the demon Angelus.
Angelus is experiencing the pain of having a conscience and the burden of moral decision-making, resulting in the entity Angel.
The Soul acts as a tool to punish Angelus by giving it the ability to care. The Soul is not the one being punished, it's kinda just doing its function.
And of course, the vengeance being the point, if the punishment stops punishing (moment of true happiness etc), the loophole takes effect, the Soul has served its purpose and goes back to wherever souls go.
Meanwhile, with the soul vacated, the animal instinct of the demon Angelus no longer suffers from inhibitions, and actively resents having had them. Thus giving that dissociative identity effect.
Honestly the metaphysics of souls in-universe are pretty vague. I'm not even sure if souls are non-fungible. Was it human Angel's soul, or just a spare one that was hanging down the back of the celestial couch? Was a new soul made bespoke from the Lifestream for the purpose?
Best I can offer is an informed, but no less bemused, shrug.
There's kind of a Ship Of Theseus / Trigger's Broom thought experiment here.
How much would need to be removed, replaced, or reattached for you to be a different person?
Can my discarded hair trimmings be equally blamed for my crimes?
Is the metal plate in my arm a part of me, and thus able to share my pre-surgery academic qualifications?
Is David Tennant culpable for stuff Christopher Ecclestone did?
The way I always interpreted the soul canon is that when you die you lose your soul and the demon takes over. *see lie to me*
And when your soul goes it leave a sort or outline for the demon. Passion of the nerd has a better explanation for it in his video essay on season 3 episdoe 10 amends.
Great episode...but.
Why were the Scoobies in the library, a place known to Angelus and open to every rando vampire? Why not Giles' apartment? Then, given the stakes, both Slayers could have gone after Angelus in full kamikaze mode.
Sure, try the spell...if only to make him easier to kill. Because they know now that even a re-ensouled Angel is just a ticking time bomb, waiting to murder countless people. Plus, they're on a clock with Acathla and they know it.
He HAS to be killed, even if it costs both Slayers.
I’m keeping this comment very short so I don’t accidentally include any spoilers,…. I can’t say say anything further. But I wanted to raise at this point as they have now occurred, I find it very interesting that the two slayer deaths we have now witnessed have been essentially identical in cause. People don’t seem to register this generally.
Although it would have been best to see the movie before the series at all, since it makes apparent some jokes in episode 1 that are missed otherwise, and at least before the last episode of S1 since it would have made it more dramatic since the start of the movie shows that slayers can get killed and come back as the next slayer looking the same (played by same actress) and yet entirely different people with a different family, memory, friends which would have made the horror of the master dropping Buffy into the water more severe since just knowing that SMG plays a slayer in future seasons would not have meant that Buffy could not actually have been killed but that she could. They didn’t have to have Xander save her in S1 as they did that time, the movie still does make even more clear especially about Buffy’s background and the secret of the other watcher, etc.
I’d still try to watch the movie for this channel ASAP.
Is Angel with a soul the same as the human? In addition to the soul he has a demon so you can argue there's three different personalities.
He's not the same as a human but he's much closer. This is why I call him a hybrid.
I think Angel's curse is very much presented as unfair, and is intended to be. It's cruel. It's punishment from the wronged, people who, as you say, are very much having their thinking clouded by emotions.
Exactly how it works is unclear, but Vampires are something like possession - the person is killed and the Vampiric demon controls their body.
With Angel's curse it seems that the human soul is restored, but he's still a vampire, so the demon is still in there with the human soul in control.
This would mean that the demon is suffering from the human soul's remorse and guilt, something they're normally free from.
This is just my understanding though, I could be wrong.
Drussila sucha powerful presence
As a completely unrelated aside... every time I watch your reactions it reminds me I still need to read The Book of Dust books. It's been so long since I read His Dark Materials do you think I should reread them first?
In the Buffyverse, a vampire is at least partly the product of the kind of human they were. There's a reason Angelus is the kind of vampire he is, because of the kind of human he was. As a human, Liam was a violent, woman-using-and-abusing drunk with daddy issues. Losing his soul only twisted his nature as a human. Since you did the first and last eps, this won't be a spoiler, really, but once you get the backstory of Spike, you'll see why he's totally different to Angelus. It's because of the kind of human William was.
And yeah, they don't do whole backstories in a single episode. They like to tease you with the bits of the past that are most applicable to the story going on in the episode.
Yep. There's consent, and then there's *informed* consent. Simple consent without the information doesn't usually cut it. It's certainly better than no consent at all, but that's not exactly a high bar to jump. Liam didn't care much about consent, either, really, so I feel less sorry about what happens after his soul is returned. Still, it does suck for him.
I loved the commentary on Angel's punishment- I always internally debated Angel's soul, did he get Liam's (Angel's human name) soul? or just A soul?
‼️SPOILERS‼️
that is interesting, i’m pretty sure spike got williams soul and i doubt that was coincidence. i wonder if it was different because it sook his out instead of having it forced on him?
If it was just any other soul. I don’t think that soul will know about all the things Angel did as Angelus and have all the memories
@@ninipookiethe soul is separate from memory - remember that "when the demon takes your body, it gets your memories but it doesn't get your soul." Angel remembers his life as Liam in all incarnations. Memories are apparently stored in the physical brain. So getting a soul means you still have the memories but now your conscience is there and you feel bad about what you did while soulless.
❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍
22:00 Angel is dead, Angel died centuries ago when Darla killed him, then the Kalderash dragged his soul back from rest, then he went back when the curse broke and now you're talking about dragging his soul back from rest again.
Liam died. Angel/Angelus was the name his vampire self chose because his sister thought he was an angel and invited him in. But yeah, the Kalderash cursed him with a soul - it isn't clear whether the curse actually got Liam's soul, or just gave him a generic soul, like that given a newborn baby.
@@ernesthakey3396 Yes I know but he hasn't heard the name Liam yet has he so I didn't want to spoil/confuse anything.
I never considered his soul might not have been his orginal one.
@@ernesthakey3396 “if memory serves, this is meant to summon a person’s soul, from the ether”. Now Angelus is not the smartest when it comes to occult, admittedly, but I think this bit from Passion is the most definitive answer you’ll get on whether it is a soul created or the person’s soul summoned.
I think you'll have a good time watching Angel - it delves so much deeper into what it means to be a vampire in this universe, and does so much more consistently and interestingly than Buffy in my opinion. I won't say more to avoid spoilers, but you're asking the perfect questions already, and you've barely scratched the surface of Angel as a character; I'm so excited to see your reaction to the full extent of his journey.
It always amuses me when people question the justice of what the gypsy's did when they were quite clear that they had no interest in justice. Someone they loved was dead and somebody was going to suffer for that collateral damage or morality be damned.
@@charlesbaldwin3166 I just want to clarify that I know this, I just find it interesting to examine things 😄
I quit watching when Dexter's wife died. I was mad she died and I figured no one could possibly top John Lithgow as a villain.
Colin Hanks and Edward James Olmos are really good villains.
Wouldn’t you say though that Angel consented to losing his soul again by being with Buffy? He knew the risks, he knew how he felt about her and what it would mean to consummate their relationship. Yet Angel did it anyway, knowing it might turn him into Angelus. Therefore there is a good argument than Angel, not Angelus, deserves this punishment again.
To my knowledge from everything I've seen in the show up until this point, Angel had zero idea that it was even a risk he could turn back. Why would he have known?
Angel didn't know.
@@TylerAlexander ah I think you’re right and I just retconned that in my head without realizing it