13 Problems with the Pretribulation Rapture | Part 2
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- For sources that were used for this message, see Mark's comments here: • Answering Objections t...
We borrowed from Sam Storms' excellent message here: • Sam Storms on the Disp...
We also found Piper's article helpful: www.desiringgo...
And we found Doug Moo's chapters in this book very useful: www.amazon.com...
Thanks for joining us! For more info visit nacathens.org
For the rest of our series on Revelation and eschatology, see here:
ruclips.net/p/PL4nNmjgYbRZ7bCKQsCUZ9mi6SWRzCFRXG
thank you, I agree.. I'm sorry to say the teaching of pre tribulation will be a big reason the falling away, they won't be prepared..keep teaching this truth
Think how scary this is.... satan knows the scripture... he will come saying I am here to rapture you away according to the scriptures
The falling away will happen, and after that, the pretribbers will know it’s not true! Pretribbers wont be the falling away!
The Falling Away Started About 80yrs ago? The Invention of Phone, Radio, Television. The internet, Cellphones, Cause It to Rapidly Speed UP!! That's where We are today. Most People in Churches Today are More Lost than The Lost, Because God was Kicked Out of The Schools, Government, AND CHURCHES!! Today Satan is running many churches, But Not The Church of The Elect. The 4 Horsemen were Given Power Over 25% of The Planet to do Their Evil Deeds, That's that Little Part of The world on The Other side all around Israel. And It's Coming this way
Why would you think that the pre trib people will be the people who fall away? If the rapture doesn't happen before the tribulation then we will be here on earth just like the post trib people remember Jesus talk about like the days of Noah and the days of Lot and he pulled them out of his wrath. Remember the 10 virgins 5 were wise they were ready for the groom . Ok if the rapture happens before the tribulation the post trib people are going to have to live through the tribulation because they weren't looking for the groom. The post trib people will be the ones that have the hardest time not the pre trib people the worst thing that would happen to the pre trib people is they have to go through the tribulation the worst thing the post trib people would have to struggle with is that they missed the rapture because they weren't looking for the lord to come that day.
Please pray for me. I'm just learning this and I'm devastated.
I just found this channel/church & quickly understood why it only has 2.5k subs, it teaches the hard truth & doesn’t compromise. I like it & all those mega churches are a huge red flag they cater to the world.
The faith of Abraham was tested by God. The faith of Job was tested. The list goes on and on so our faith will be tested
Revelation 3:10-12 "10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God...". The phrase "keep thee from" in verse 10 should/could have been translated as "protect you in" according to Strong's definitions. In John 17:15 Jesus prays that we will be "kept from the evil" - "I pray thou shouldn't take them out of the world". We will be here to be tested just like all the Apostles were tested. "All the World" of verse 10 definitely included the church, we must overcome something - Tribulation.
THANK YOU!!!!!!! I finally feel affirmed! --- This is the way I have interpreted the scriptures and have had a difficult time trying to explain & convince others who are pre-rapture believers! I read the scriptures and see all that you are seeing ---
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."
The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.
The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
I hear you, it is very hard when Christians have their minds and hearts set. It’s such a shame because you can see how this could lead to a great falling away.
Imagine you’ve been lead to believe that you will be out of here, Christians will think they missed the Resurrection ( Rapture a term that came in, in the late 18th century. JESUS CALLS IT THE RESURRECTION )
I like to draw their attention to STEPHEN in ACTS how he face DEATH 💀 ( a spiritual force)
Stephen says, “ LOOK I SEE HEAVEN OPEN AND THE SON OF MAN ( JESUS) STANDING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.”
STEPHEN NOW HAD A PURE HEART AND WAS ABLE TO SEE GOD.
This happened just before they stoned him.
Now look what Stephen says about those who are about to MURDER him.
“ LORD JESUS RECEIVE MY “ SPIRIT “ AND DO NOT HOLD THIS AGAINST THEM.”
STEPHEN is asking for Forgiveness for his murders.
THE SAME HOLY SPIRIT WHO STRENGTHENED STEPHEN IS IN US AND WILL HELP US.
We live to Please JESUS and OUR HEAVENLY FATHER. We are not into gratifying the FLESH.
Raised Southern Baptist I was taught pre-Trib. A college friend caused me to question it with the simple question, "How many times is Jesus coming back?" I am not longer pre-trib but
keep it to myself. Once I mentioned it to a close friend, she was shocked and argued with me. The Rapture is too easy. The world hated Jesus and will hate us. Christians all over the world are in dire situations and death. Americans have an easy believism. I hope to educate myself and friends that there is no easy way out. Of course, eventuatlly, they will figure it out.
Americans are spoiled with large warm houses, multiple full fridges and several cars. They expect God will roll out the red carpet for them, because American exceptionalism. If God allowed & did all that to his only son, I wouldn’t hold my breath of getting eternal life that easily. Being tested and refined in fire like gold is what makes us true believers.
This is so Scriptural and thorough. Well done!
Thank your for demolishing false doctrine 😊
Fabulous teaching I will be sharing this as it’s so true... thank you Jesus for your truth 🙏
Knowing, as an elderly child of God, how the Bible keeps teaching us throughout our lifetime. I'm not shocked anymore how this world treats us because they just don't think they're dead men walking.
I just started watching you guys go over the subject matter, which I'm thrilled to hear someone is teaching truth. It's so refreshing.
Now, this has made me an extremely old cheerleader wearing the full armor of God. Each time you nail it down, making it clear what all believers should know, I start yelling and cheering you on. I'm using my cane to beat the floor at the same time, and now I think my neighbors believe I'm dying. 😄 PRAISE GOD...A GREAT WITNESSING TOOL!
KEEP TELLING THE WORLD GUYS... WE NEED THE MEAT OF THE WORD. 😏 📖
I understand there is one return of Jesus.
Thank you Brothers! I agree. I am strongly in accordance with your very clear explanations of the the Word of God concerning the erroneous teaching of the so called pre-trib rapture. I love the Truth!
MOST BAPTIST CHURCHES TEACH THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE SOLIDLY.....THEY COMFORT THEMSELVES WITH THE IDEA THAT THEY WILL NOT FACE GODS WRATH AT ALL...THAT IT IS FOR THE UNBELIEVERS ONLY....I GO TO A BAPTIST CHURCH HERE IN SYDNEY AND I DON T AGREE WITH THEM...I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT WE ALL ARE GONNA GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION, WE ARE ALL GONNA BE TESTED FOR OUR TRUE FAITH IN OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST...ARE WE GONNA DENY HIM WHEN TIMES ARE TOUGH OR ARE WE GOING TO SUFFER and DIE FOR HIS SAKE ?????????
ARE YOU TAKING THE MARK OF THE BEAST OR YOU REJECTING IT ???? DO YOU LOVE JESUS WITH JUST YOUR LIPS OR DO YOU LOVE HIM FROM YOUR HEART ??????
TIME WILL TELL FOR ALL THESE QUESTIONS.....BE READY FOR OUR LORD JESUS ALWAYS.....
I think that you Men are write on target! Otherwise who are the Saints that loose there heads, and won't take the mark in the great Tribulation??? It has to be one event, we must endure until the end!
God bless you all my brothers in Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ones who remain who did not believe in him, but whom their family (that were raptured) warned them to prepare them in hopes that they would receive and accept Him before the tribulation. Our faith has been tested, but the point of the tribulation is for the Jews. 2/3 will be decieved by the antichrist and 1/3 will recognize the truth of Jesus Christ through that tribulation, and the handful of gentiles that convert/accept/believe will prove their faith through their deaths.
This is also why the church is no longer mentioned after chapter 4 of Revelations, because we aren't here anymore. We aren't mentioned again until he returns with us. Further, in Matt 24:29-30 it says we _return_ with Him, meaning we must have been called up _before_ this 2nd coming.
Here is the rapture in Revelation 4: "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."
The door is Jesus. In the Gospel of John, Jesus said "I am the Door." There is the trumpet you see in I Thess. 4:13-18 and 1 Cor. 15. "Come up Hither" is the pretribulation rapture of the living saints. Next, is the word "Hereafter". It means after Jesus addressed the Churches. The Church age is completed in Revelation 3. Jesus spoke to 7 Churches that represent the entire Church age. Seven is the # of completion or perfection.
Revelation 6 starts the tribulation. The white horse is the man of sin, the anti-christ. He comes in peaceably. When they say "peace & safety" then "sudden destruction" will happen -1 Thess. 5. When will the sudden destruction happen? After the man of sin declares himself to be God in the temple in Jerusalem-II Thess. 2. Go to Matthew 24, Jesus commanded these people to flee to the mountains. The anti-christ will make war on Jewish and Gentile saints but mainly Jewish saints. According to Zechariah 13, 2/3 of the Jews die during this horrific time. This is why Jesus said if He did not shorten this time, no flesh would be saved.
Folks, here is the truth. The Church is not appointed unto wrath. We are saved from the wrath to come. In Revelation 3:10, Jesus promised the Church that He will us FROM the hour of temptation that shall come upon the whole earth. The Apostle John witnessed the events of the day of the Lord from Heaven. You and I, if born from above, will be in heaven during this time. The tribulation is called "the time of Jacob's trouble". Millions of Jews (also Gentiles) will be saved. There will be a national salvation of Israel -Romans 11:25-29.
Please repent and trust in the blood to be saved.
PS. If the Church enters the tribulation, then it is no longer a "comfort" (I Thess.4) and it is no longer the "blessed hope." (Titus)
Mathew 24:29,30 "After the tribulation of those days" .....
Do you believe all of the pre trib believers are afraid or unwilling to suffer for Jesus? How many of us Christians have suffered and died for Jesus in the last 2000 years? Did they not go through tribulation? Do not reject the Blessed Hope, the glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour: Christ Jesus, as we look forward to being united with Jesus for our marraige to Jesus in Heaven, then we return with Jesus to Earth to live in the New Jerusalem, where there will be no more pain and suffering. Do not steal the joy of all of us believers in Christ Jesus, as we look forward to His return for us at any moment, without any prophetic sign or event to take place. Come Lord Jesus, may today be the day You return for Your Bride, the Body of Christ, the Church. Peace and Maranatha.
I totally agree ! So glad i found your channel and subscribed! Thank you i have believed the same for a long time but have a hard time getting others to see the truth 🤷🏻♂️ God bless you ?
We are not to suffer Gods wrath! Not suffering in general.
I definitely disagree with pre-trib after being taught it my whole life. A fellow brother challenged me to go back and read the texts for themselves as you guys did here with Matthew 24. I do have a question though. I know it’s a fairly new standpoint but has been gaining ground. I tend to lean into the pre-wrath position. Which says at some point after the first half of the tribulation around the 6th seal. That also leaves the scripture open that says no one knows the hour or the day but will know the signs. Do you have any thoughts on pre-wrath or know enough about it to discuss? The only reason I don’t go to the full post trib view is because of the timing of Jesus coming around the 6th and 7th seals and the signs in the moon sun and stars. Thank you for your time. Really enjoyed this video.
God, Himself told us that everything in the Bible which happened to our forefathers is intended for our instruction. When the Israelites were brought out of Egypt (the original Exodus), the Israelites experienced the plagues (intended for Pharoah and the Egyptians) right aloong with them. It wasn't until around the 5th plague when God stated (at that very point) that He was going to make a distinction between His children and the Egyptians. He did NOT accomplish this distinction by "rapturing" out the Israelites...but by providing supernatural protection "through" those days.
The EXACT same will happen again at the end of the age (the great exodus).
If people don't believe God...then they should consider what Jesus prayed to His father (while He was in the Garden of Gesthemene). He didn't ask His father to "remove or rapture" those living at the end of the age...He asked Him to provide us with protection.
The gathering of us in the air (rapture) happening at ANY other time other than when the Bible states (after the days of tribulation) is doctrine from satan--who is in hopes that believers will lose what faith they had in God when they see they weren't raptured out!!! God bless.
God's wrath will be poured out during the 3 and 1/2 years of tribulation. 1260 days equals 3 and 1/2 years.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."
The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.
The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
it's clear to me I agree Matthew 24 covers all you need immediately after these days (tribulation) He comes. pre tribulation teaching is not preparing Christians for the hardest things we face indeed will lead to the falling away, they will betray us and turn they're back on the Faith.. then we will be handed over arrested and put to death and all nations will hate us for HIS NAMES Sake .. even so come Lord JESUS
@@brianpeterson5559 this makes no sense to me. First of all, God clearly teaches that none of His sheep will be lost. Those who are saved now, who believe in pretrib, if they see the tribulation begin, will be horrified but also that will just confirm that the Bible is true.
Why would they fall away and turn other believers over? That’s not at all what scripture says will happen.
The pretrib if it wasnt true shouldnt make any christian lose sight of the teachings of Jesus to always be willing to die for the faith. If pretrib makes us afraid of that so we can easily escape,it doesnt mean christians are suddenly going to panic if they are here in Tribulation times if they truly were taking jesus's words seriously in the first place. Only weak christians would be unprepared. Pretrib christians must always be prepared for mortality in any case. So then if they do feel disappointed,they should at least rejoice that they will see the Two Witnesses in Jerusalem and they will begin to realize a reality of a posttrib view if it turns out to be the right view. But there seems to be more proof of a pretrib view because isiah 26:19-21 follows the 1 thessalonians 4 rapture order of events,Resurrection first,then going into the chambers (mansions of john 14:1) and the judgment on earth. The gates of hell cannot prevail on the church either,but if the BEast overcomes the saints,how does that not make sense as a promise to deliver the church from mass death? There seems to be more promises to Bring the Christians up for a 7 year honeymoon in heaven to escape the judgments on earth. "The word last "DAY" is a word for both the end of the church age at the Rapture and also the Second coming. This was a mystery to the people before Apostle Paul mentioned it. Jesus simply said when he resurrects the dead,it will be the last day of a time period of history because the FIRST Resurrection is three phases separated by time gaps! Jesus was resurrected first with some saints in Jerusalem! Then when he said last day to maybe even those people when they were alive,that could have been a last day for that time period. Then the next phase of first resurrection is pretrib Rapture and Second coming. Those are all the LAST day of their dispensation ime periods.
im right and no one could respond to refute it.
The Bride must have her wedding week. We will not loose our soul salvation if we are wrong on the time Jesus returns, but Jesus tells us many times to watch for his return, and I'm watching and I am comforted.
Good thinking:) Jesus tells us to really start watching for His coming after the events in Luke 21:25-27. At that time we "look up" because our redemption is near
@@slamdunk4879 don’t think He was talking TO us…
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
This was so well done. It was so refreshing to listen to you guys go through the scriptures like you did. This will be a resource for me to learn from and to point others to regarding this subject. Keep teaching the truth and pointing others to Jesus!
⛅😇 Behold He comes, riding on a cloud...
Love your forum and your speaking! I would like to make one comment. At the 45:12 mark you say, “I believe Israel has a future in the church” Actually it is the other way around, the Church has a future in Israel! The New Covenant is made with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, the church is included since it is ingrafted into Israel. Jeremiah 31:31 and Heb 8:8.
Bless you all!
Nope! Israel is a PART of the church. Jesus did not come to make us all Israelites. He came to make us all His chosen ones. And that's the church!
Like watching this I had a lightbulb go off.
So what if half of the Apostasy is from the Christian’s that believe in the rapture? Cause people that aren’t strong in their faith could definitely stop trusting God after not receiving the “promise of a rapture” ?
Just a thought 🤷🏼♀️
Love eschatology
Thank you!
What you say about the rapture and not being biblical is refreshing to hear, the pastor I study with teaches the same. So many teach false teachings, the rapture is not biblical and God hates those that teach people to fly away to save their souls. There is one return of Christ, that is in the 7th trumpet, the furthest trump out. The anti christ comes in the 6th trump proclaiming to be Christ, and to sit in the holy place Jerusalem. People believe that it is Christ to rapture them away, it is the biggest deception and God says most of the world will be deceived. Christ will return after the 2 witnesses die in the street and 3 days later Christ will return and then and only then will we all turn into spirit body and then the millennial will begin under Christ reign (the days(tribulation) will be cut short for the elect sake 5 1/2 months )
So did Noah fly away to save his soul?
This “little boys club” need to read one of the leading Hebrew messianic scholars, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. The book is called, The Footsteps of the Messiah.
Dear people please do yourself a favor and educate yourself.
Don’t just buy into everything you hear. These guys talk a lot, but bite their tongue every time you check them with the Scripture.
Many blessings!
There are overlapping times from the past through current times and future. The bible is telling us we are currently in the not yet stage of the end of the world. When it is time for the world to end It will not be the end of the earth, it will be the end of all who conformed to the worldly ways of life rather than living in true faith in Jesus. Until He returns at the second coming, we all continue living in the not yet moments in time. The End is not yet. Get prepared and prepare others!
Surley you should be rejecting the rapture altogether never mind pre, mid or post. Christ returns to earth and never goes anywhere else!
Why is Matthew Chapter 13 not brought up? The parable about the wheat and the tares (as well as Jesus' explanation) could NOT be any more clear about what happens that final day...including that the tares will be collected first. Which explains why we, as believers will remain. It also says we will be collected into his barn, NOT that we will stay in the field. I believe we will NOT return to Earth, but taken up to Heaven.
Thank you for these videos, and the additional texts that support a single event!
John 11-6 Martha says the resurrection is on the LAST DAY. It dosen't get any planer or simpler than that to disprove pretribe.
So where is this pre-tribulation idea coming from , not who it's coming from but from what error or human failing is this idea coming from ? . Maybe we should be addressing the core of this error/human failing .
He who endures to the end refers to the Jews who are in Judea and who have fled into the mountains of Ammon, Moab, and Edom (Jordan).
To the first pastor, geez guy slow down. we're not going anywhere. We want to hear what you think.
Study the Feasts of the Lord, YHVH and see. Also read
Matthew 24: 29-31
Revelation 11:14-18
Both are AFTER the tribulation.
And can People be so confused that i am the only person to Comment out of 11k views ??????
I give all the glory to God!
Thank you Men!!!
The bible clearly that believers will go on tribulation
Jesus so frequently says be Ye not deceived
I’m completely on board with this AMillennialism understanding my only gripe is using the term post tribulation as to me that’s still more of a category of premillennialism . As an Amill guy I don’t think we have to assume there will be a world wide time of trouble for all Christian’s everywhere. It’s possible but we have other texts they say things like He comes like a their in the night and their were eating and drinking and marrying like in the days of Noah when the judgment came upon them . Some of those texts don’t lend themselves to every Christian being threatened with death . Persecution and tribulations are true for every generation though .
absolutely according to the truth!!! praise the Lord!!! same for part 1 of this...
Excellent video! You guys are brave! 👏
You have a good disposition and many good true points. I am not pre-trib though many of my close friends are. Have you interacted with Marven Rosenthal's The Prewrath Rapture of the Church?
The day of the LORD occurs in the second half of the seventieth week of Daniel. Not at the very end. "The day of the LORD" comes after cosmic disturbances, particularly "the sign" whch all flesh shall see together (Isaiah 40:5), a foreshadowing which Peter, James, and John saw on the mount of transfiguration apparently witnessed. The day of the LORD begins at Revelation 6:15-17. Then is followed by the wrath of the day of the LORD. It is that wrath of the Day of the LORd that believers are "not appointed to": I Thessalonians 5:9.
There are seven verses that say Jesus is going to return with millions of angels. Two verses changed angelos to "saints." So where are the saints? I was raised to believe in the pre-trib, but changed my mind 25 years ago.
Revelation 11 is what confirms it all as long as we know WHO the 2 witnesses are (2 CANDLESTICKS)... In Rev 1:20 Jesus interprets 7 churches as 7 candlesticks so whenever Revelation says candlesticks later on in Revelation it still is interpreted as churches... now in Rev chapter 2-3 are the 7 letters to the 7 churches BUT ONLY 2 are NOT Rebuked ?? now in Revelation 11... 2 witnesses are given power who are also known as 2 candlesticks & 2 olive trees???? PHILADELPHIA & SMYRNA aka the Jews and Gentiles... who are slaughter by Antichrist Rev11:7.. References to that Daniel 7:21...Rev13:7...Rev12:17...all referring to His people not just 2 persons.
Point 13 seems wrong. Reading the scriptures lots of people would believe that there is a plan for Israel separate from the church based on the natural reading of the Bible. Nobody I know needed to be taught that in order to come to that conclusion.
Too often people who debate a position different than theirs, they never really study to know what that position actually teaches and how/why it exegetes scripture as it does. This panel is no different. Darby did not dream up dispensationalism. We have 3c sermons now that give evidence to it being taught that early. It wasn't until Augustine's employment of Origen's heretical allegorical hermeneutic that amillennialism came into being. We have 2c documents clearly holding to millennialism. I've commented extensively on segment #2 of this panel's biblical arguments. The arguments against dispensationalism and the biblical exposition in this discussion are not what I would describe as scholarly. Their arguments are often red herrings. SMH.
While there's a lot that can be said against 'Darby'...there is no reason to drag debates down ad hominem fallacies.... or to build straw men, which can be knocked down easily. Though Darby's dispensationalism goes further than having a) spread of the gospel/Christianity b) a return of Christ and thousand-year rule upon Earth. That was indeed the view of various others long before Darby came onto the Christian scene. Darby added a number of things to this that are problematic. Especially the pre-trib argument and a 'rapture' being a separate event prior to the Return of Christ. Add to this the heresy of Christian Zionism, which has permeated churches and ministries far more than the Star-Trek theology of the pre-trib-rapturists... Ulitmately those are all distractions from the gospel.
What are these People going to say when they get behind when the Trumpet gets blown?
Nah, I still lean pre trib… but prepared to be beheaded
Same I believe pre tribulation rapture. It makes the most sense
Loved it. The young gentleman with the specs is absolutely spot on. And the rest of the panel. Because I believe the whole world is influenced by their (the western), mindset. Because the Bible is eastern centric. And it revolves around Israelites.
Quit mis interpreting what u wanna hear... Let the bible interpet the bible! 🙏
I tell pre tribers ,are you prepared to die for Yeshua ,even if you believe in a pre trib ,here in new Zealand it's like talking to a brick wall I study with FAI ministries, keep Up the good work ,and walk through the valley of the shadow of death
The Greek nouns, "Parousia" (Coming) and "Epiphania" (Appearing) are always singular, preceded by Greek singular definite articles. Accordingly, only one "Coming" and only one "Appearing", which are two of the ~15 ways in which the Bible directly contradicts all rapture-timings other than "Post Tribulation". Since the Bible is true and the truth can never contradict itself, all Rapture-timings which require two comings or two appearings must be false.
1Peter 1:13 "13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;" 1Peter 1:5 "5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." We all will have to Endure until the End when Christ will be revealed from Heaven. Matt. 24:13.
Revelation 3:10-12 "10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God...". The phrase "keep thee from" in verse 10 should/could have been translated as "protect you in" according to Strong's definitions. In John 17:15 Jesus prays that we will be "kept from the evil" - "I pray thou shouldn't take them out of the world". We will be here to be tested just like all the Apostles were tested. "All the World" of verse 10 definitely included the church, we must overcome something - Tribulation.
Good stuff, but I had to turn it down to .75 speed, the young fella must of been dropped in the coffee pot when he was born 😂
Luke 23
42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
44And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
No one knows when and how the harpazo will occur. I have a few issues with the pretribulation view. In Revelation 1:20, the 7 lampstands are the 7 churches. If the churches are raptured before Revelation 4:1 then who are the 2 lampstands mentioned in Revelation 11:4? Are they supposedly two extras in addition to the 7? Why weren't they mentioned with the them then? In my opinion those are the church of Smyrna and the church of Philadelphia, the 2nd and the 6th lampstands. They are the two churches who remained faithful and were blemish in the eyes of the Lord. Both were persecuted by the synagogue of Satan (apostate churches). Also check the word victorious in Revelation. Who are then those were were victorious over the beast in Revelation 15:2? Isn't that interesting?
When they GET left behind
What's the difference between the day of the Lord and the day of Christ? Because there's two different days in the Bible and talks about the day of the Lord and the day of Christ
It's the same day. Just a different way of saying it. Christ is our Lord. Just like if another said the day of Jesus, Messiah, Yeshua, or any other Name by which he is called will all be accurate and the same. It doesn't change, it's still The Day, That Day The Last day. And the Who is still the same. The Many names by which Jesus is specifically referred to is still the Who.
Amen 🙌🏼
The origin of the Pretribulation Rapture is in the 1st century and detailed by Paul in 1 and 2 Thessalonians. It pops up again in the 14th Century and then becomes prominent again under Darby in the 1800s. Replacement Theology sprung up in the 300s AD under St. Augustine and was/is the default view of the Roman Catholic Church and the Reformers (Luther, Calvin, etc.).
Yep. Despite any perceived “problems” with the doctrine of the pretrib rapture, it appears to be clearly taught by Jesus in John 14 and elaborated on by Paul.
Paul lived in the very time when tribulation was very intense-people were being tortured, beaten, etc.
They were looking for Jesus, but definitely did NOT expect to escape tribulation. They were living in it every day.
To the guy on the left. I appreciate your zeal for the word but you talk a 1000 words a minute. Maybe its possible in future videos to talk a little slower so we can take notes instead of hitting the rewind button 1000 times. God bless
Totally agree, the speech needs to slow down considerably😮
Well, despite your group's talent of verbal juggling, I for one would prefer to be prepared, by inviting the Holy Spirit into my lifestyle, for the Pre-Trib Rapture, with its escape from the horrid Tribulation, to come; just in case! Thank You Jesus
Hi North Avenue Church. I understand your video is in some ways a response or reaction to others. While your message shares much of the truth, it seems there are very little (none) that have responded to your video. I thought there should be some comments below, but I AM surprised that there aren't ANY! Not ONE? Not even one comment from those that follow your Church? What does that mean? Is there no further defense to your response or this video? Or is it that your Church is not mainstream, thus no one really has heard your message? There are other reasons I'm sure.
I applaud you for taking up this topic. When reading the scriptures, it's clear understanding of the rapture, I also do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.
I believe most people should be able to discern the truth. All of you are going beyond what is necessary, finding even more scriptures to prove the rapture, instead of seeing the obvious ones that pre-tribbers cannot deny, nor do most pre-tribbers even try. They only give excuses. I have yet found someone that can't disprove the Word.
Here's the Truth: Many people are confused about the rapture, and the moment, or time, when that happens. Pre, mid and post believe in 1 thess 4:13-17 as one of the most widely used scriptures about this topic. However, when comparing scripture with scripture, we can only come to the conclusion that the rapture happens when the Lord returns, on the Last Day. Many scriptures show this truth. Some of which you haven't even mentioned in this video, but are clear as well.
The truth to the rapture can be found in 1 Thess 4:13-17. This is the beginning of understanding the rapture. This passage is mostly referring to those that are ASLEEP (those who are DEAD, and dead in Christ). The passage talks to the living saying to not worry, and that the Dead will rise. It goes further. It says the DEAD in Christ shall rise FIRST. Then "we which are alive and REMAIN.."
REMAIN - those that are left from....
This scripture also says, "We which are alive and remain "Unto the Coming of the Lord" shall be caught up. This becomes even more clear when we read the 1 Thes 5:1-2 ! This occurs on the Day of the Lord.
We can therefore compare 1 Thes 4:13-7 and 5:1-2 with other clear scriptures like Matt 24 and Mark 13. "Immediately AFTER the tribulation..." John 6:37-44 and 54 says it will happen on the Last Day. The Last Day! It is repeated, so it cannot be confused. Even Martha, the brother of Lazarus KNEW this, in John 11:23-24, when talking with Jesus! "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Those that need more convincing... Zehaniah 1 and 2. "The great day of the Lord is near... That day is a day of Wrath... A day of the trumpet and alarm. "Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth... It may be ye shall be hid IN the day of the Lord's anger."
The scriptures say, "ye shall be hid IN the day of the Lord's anger." Hidden IN the day, and not some 7 years or 3/ 1/2 years before, but yes before! First the rapture and then God's wrath upon the earth. Two separate events, but occurring during the same time frame. Yes, before God rains fire upon the earth, as mentioned in Rev 18. Rev 18:4 "Come out of her, My people..." Then God shows his wrath upon the earth. In one day and one hour - also repeated. - compare that with Rev 3:10 "Because of my patience, I also will keep thee from the HOUR of temptation that will come to ALL the world..."
The Bible also says, "He that overcometh," and to endure (not until a certain time) but unto to the end.
I hope these direct scriptures can help you all focus, thus have no need to refute the Bible and what it says. When you start referring to opinions, your adversaries have an open door.
In my view, NO ONE can refute the clear scriptures that say the Dead in Christ rise first, and that it happens on the Last day. They can only cloud that with confusion, saying things like the Jews and Gentiles are not the same. Romans tells us the Truth also.
Daniel gives us the exact day count for last 7 years. And then also after the desolation the exact days. So if no man knows the day..is Daniel then false? Doctine of eminence. Then what about we not appointed to wrath why will the church go through Gods wrath? Church is missing after revelation 4. Would it not be the gr8 opportunity to tell the chuch what they should expect. And pray to be counted worthy to escape all these things? Does it mean when u say the church get prosecuted that it was worthy? Just a few questions. I have tones more.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Exactly, the falling away and revealing of the man of sin first and then the rapture!
Proof of A Pre trib Rapture. Pay Attention to the cloud and Cloud's Jesus appears in and With. Acts chapter 1 verses 9 10 11 Cloud. In Red Luke chapter 21 verses 27 and 28 Jesus is coming in A Cloud the Rapture. In Revelation chapter 1 verse 7 Jesus is coming With the Clouds when he comes back to the MT of Olives the second coming
Your wrong. Listen to Dr. Paul Felter for the truth on this matter.
FIRST: BORN-AGAIN
SECOND: everything else
The second issue is when does John 14: 1-3 occur , when does Jesus come to take us to the Fathers house, why do we meet him in the AIR.
You forget the restrainer must be removed
Who is the restrainer?
Where Does It Say He Will be removed?
This goes against 2000 years of Paul's teaching, this is the falling away from biblical teaching!
Thank you...
I appreciate your willingness to teach and to study the scripture, but I am pretty sure you have also been influenced in your beliefs by others,
I listened to message on 2 witnesses, and I feel if it is a symbol of the church there should only be 1 bride,, so should only be 1 witness
I will listen to some of your other discussions,
When Jesus comes back for the bride will the marriage supper also be symbolized? Cause if we rise turn around come back to earth it seems like there is somthing missing there!
Just one clarification, does judgment come upon Jesus return? the revelation mentions of a second resurrection "AFTER" 1000 years of Jesus Rule then comes JUDGMENT DAY!
11:30 You reference 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8 but why exclude discussion of Chapter. In this chapter Paul is clarifying to the Thessalonians that the Tribulation has not already started (as they themselves were undergoing tribulation). In fact, the text (versus 1-4) explain how there was a false report (allegedly from Paul himself, which he denies) that the Tribulation had already begun and the Rapture had taken place. Paul then goes on to explain how the Great Tribulation takes place after the rise of the Antichrist. We are gathered to Christ before the Tribulation and then gathered from the 4 winds after the Tribulation. Paul is not compressing the details, he's expanding them in chapter 2
I just have a question if it is not a pre-tribulation rapture who then is able to populate the kingdom?
I am asking to learn but if there is not a pretrib do we get taken up and come right back down for the thousand years Jesus rules?
Good question. Turn to Zech. 14:16. There will be unsaved survivors of the nations that battled against Jerusalem. They will repopulate. Yes. on the second question it's called the yo yo rapture/second coming:)
Your question is considerably larger than you might be suspecting, because, when Jesus returns and gathers His Elect from out of the extremities of heaven and earth (Mt 24:31,Mk 13:27) with a "Great Trumpet", elsewere called, "The Last Trumpet" (1Cor 15:52), within "The Last Day"(Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54), elsewhere called "The Day of The LORD", He judges from Jerusalem and the wrath of God descends upon all the wicked (Is 13:6-13, Jer 46:10,Joel 1:15-3:15) and Jesus trods the winepress of the wrath of God (Rev 14:19, 19:15), shortly before the present heavens and earth are burned-up with intense heat (2Pet 3:10-12).
The false church is the persecutor of the True church.
#14 - Revelation 20:1-6 most definitely proves that the first resurrection, which everyone agrees happens with the rapture, doesn't happen until after the Beast(Antichrist) had his time here on earth. There is no secret rapture or resurrection before this. If the pretribulationist believes that "the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air" is referring to the first resurrection, then he must except that it happens after the reign of the Antichrist and False Prophet, and not beforehand.
Rev 20:1 (ESV)
Rev 20:1 ESV -
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
There are only two resurrections. The first is the resurrection of the righteous, which occurs with the rapture. The second resurrection is the resurrection of the "rest of the dead", and they will be judged according to their works.
Matthew 24 tells us that Jesus is talking to four of His disciples in private (these disciples are Peter, James, John and Andrew; Mark 13:3). The disciples represent all who are living in true faith in God (the people represented by the disciples are the chosen to be saved or elect; this includes the Jews and the true gentile church) and as you can see he describes to them what the times will be like just before it is the time for His second coming. The times will bring things that the world has never seen before since the creation of the earth.
The pre tribulation view takes the church out of the word of God; not Jesus. Though the twelve disciples have gone on to be with the Lord in Heaven, all future disciples of Jesus are being represented during the times of the revealing of the Antichrist as seen in Matthew 24:15-26. Jesus teaches the four of the twelve disciples (representing all Jews and disciples, past, present and future). We can see the future disciples of the times we are in now are being represented as Jesus addresses the disciples as "you" throughout Matthew 24:4-51as though they are still here.
What do we learn as disciples of Jesus today in regards to the end times based off of Matthew 24? There will be a time when the Antichrist will be revealed and much danger for Jews and true gentile believers will come of it. This is a time known as Daniel's 70th week; a time when the Antichrist will wage war on the Jews and the current time disciples. The Lord is warning the Jews and the church that when the Antichrist is revealed there will be much danger; they should go into hiding. He further warns not to hesitate by going to gather our things when we know the Antichrist has been revealed or delay on count of the Sabbath or winter; just go and get out of danger by fleeing to the mountains or hide where you can. This passage is also telling the elect not to fear; those days will be shortened for the elects sake. The pre tribbers can't see the church because its hiding. : - () Man I crack myself up!
Unfortunate for some of the elect who might not have known the right time to hide because of unpreparedness from a teaching that made them believe the Lord should have come by now; but had not. They may be captured and killed or accept the mark to try to save their lives (parable of the 10 virgins; Matthew 25; Matthew 10:38-39). In 1 Kings 17, Elijah was told to go and hide and the Lord provided provisions and safety for him. I believe this would be the same for the elect (Jews and true believers of Jesus); but they must be prepared to follow instructions from the Holy Spirit.
The Lord tells us there will be false prophets who will rise up to deceive and will try to lour the elect out from hiding (Matthew 24:23-26). They will say look here is the Christ or There do not believe it; He is in the desert or the inner room, don't believe it.
I would like to mention that Matthew 24:4-14, even though the deceivers are past, present and future, still includes the Son of Perdition (verse 15). Having said that it appears that Verses 4-14 are like an introduction or precursor to verses 15-27 in the same order.
15-16. a deceiver coming in the name of Jesus Christ causing desolation (4-7)
21 a time the world has never seen before such as verse 9-10 when the believers are killed for Jesus' name sake as they are hated by "all" nations. Right now we are close to that but we are not hated by "all".
11 "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many" is seen in 24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."
14 ".....and then the end will come." The End is Jesus. He is the Alpha and Omega the Beginning and "the End. Here is verse 27, "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (so also will the coming of the End be)
Good God slow down I cannot watch this
Trust me, there is not one in ten who will make it to mid trib or post trib. Read Revelation. Also Revelation is speaking to the Jewish people and gentiles. The church will be raptured pretrib. Times of the gentiles is from 606 BC until Jesus sets foot on earth, at the end of the 7 years. The Jews and gentiles are the only ones going thru the 7 years. Maybe you are all gentiles, IDK. but myself I belong to the church, that is the bride of Christ. I will be in Heaven with my Lord and Savior. Why would Jesus put His bride, the church, thru pain, persecution, death, heartache, terror etc etc
How did you read over the 7 yr tribulation has been shortened?
Pretrib, midtrib, or postrib rapture?
What about the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and the Judgement Seat of Christ?
Do these two events happen after tribulation when Jesus returns to Earth, or before the Great Tribulation?
So when does the Bride marry Jesus at the marriage of the Lamb?
And of course we can't unite with Jesus at the Marriage Supper until we each stand in His presence at the Judgement Seat of Christ or Bema Seat Judgement, where we will be made pure and washed and given our white robes.
So these two events are being ignored by the Church and most Christians.
These events have to fit somewhere in the timeline of the next prophetic events coming soon. Maranatha.
Excellent comment! I have answers to these events individually. But when I was about to answer you as to what I think, trying to put them all together in order kinda got jumbled and gave me some new questions to other topics as well that all need to fit in here. So can't can't give my answers now! Haha! But you gave me some stuff do dive into and research from other angles. I really appreciate your comment. I'm actually excited to see what I'll come up with now.
No one knows.... Sick of folk saying they know
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.
(The last day for the thief on the cross will be the day he is with Jesus, When both his Last Day and the Earths Last Day meet, the Resurection
will happen).
Acts 3:
19. Now turn from your sins and turn to God, so you can be cleansed of your sins.
20. Then wonderful times of refreshment will come from the presence of the Lord, and he will send Jesus your Messiah to you again.
21. For He must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his prophets.
Jesus is currently in heaven at the right hand of the Father. He can not leave heaven until He comes to restore all things.
He will not restore all things BEFORE the tribulation.
Americans are ever learning but never come to the knowledge of the truth. Very sad indeed.
@17min. Do the heavens and earth also get burned up WHEN Jesus returns?
At Christ return the Earth is left desolate with only satan and the fallen angels with no one to possess or use for their follies. He is banned by the word of God to Earth to see the destruction that he has caused. Christ return begins the 1000 year millennium and at the end of the 1000 year millennium is when all the lost dead are resurrected in the same. Destructive body. And this is all found in revelation chapter 20. There's there's 2 resurrections John chapter 5 verse 28 and verse 29. The 1st one is the resurrection Of the saved at Christ rethen you wanna/a 1000 years in between there and going to revelation 20 versus 4,5,6 and that is the resurrection. Of the wicked to stand judgment.
A generation is 70 years and by strength 80 years.
(Jesus was talking to a man who will die in a few minutes. It is his last day not ours. When his last day catches up to the earths last day, he will
awake and go to heaven still in his last day.)
(Your spirit or breath of life "the same Greek word" is always attached to GOD. When you die your spirit stays in GODS hands. Jesus and
Stephen commend their spirit to GOD. Why? Because
they want it back. When you are Resurected. you will have a new body and Jesus will place your same spirit in your new body and YOU will be
YOU and no one else. )
we go after the last trumpet(so read what all happens with all the previous trumpets)
Bad hermeneutics, bad escathology. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the best and the most suitable theory to explain the last things. When you have a bad hermeneutics, you're totally mislead in your theology.
An interesting opening with a word of prayer. One person was playing with his phone. Another was clearing looking at the plethora of books laid before him. After that, I didn’t need to hear their arguments.
Wow that's pretty incredibly shallow. That's as shallow as shallow can get without not being there at all. Think of a puddle of water drying up. Yeah about like that. Pretty shallow William.
We don't ever go to heaven because God comes here at the end of the 7th 1000 year period when Jesus Christ yields up a perfected kingdom to his Father so please see 'Christadelphian videos and Christadelphian bible talks'for excellent learning and greater awareness spiritually and you will be glad if you do 😊
Morning, nice; you said little about any thing surprising. No definition of the 'oil' of Matthau 25, nor how the Midnight Cry ties in, which came from the maw of Christ hisself. And you use any version you set your own heart on, thus adding to confusion.
How does God judge his Saints? is that why you hate and abhor the 'Pre-tribulation event, because you haven't discerned how the Lord can do that, squeeze in a hot lunch, and make it back in time for Armageddon? twas answered in a bible. GTGTG
God bless
Even if you ignore revelation and thessalonians. Daniel 12:1 say straight up that when you see these things happening, he will deliver us, a few verses later he asks how much longer to the end, and in verse 7 he says three and a half years. Sounds to me that we're raptured before the three and a half years of the great tribulation. Then he brings up the daily sacrifice and 2290 years from that until the abomination set up, which happened in 688 with the building of the dome on the temple mount. Blessed is he who waits the 1,335 years , that puts us to 2023. Is that when we are out of here, and the 3 1/2 of the great tribulation start? Just wondering
Answer is no, the antichrist is not here at the forefront and has to rule for 3 and a half years, the gathering to Christ is after the tribulation, read Matthew 24. There is no quick ticket out of here
Daniel 12: hasn't happened yet, we are not experiencing a time of trouble like never before, the two witnesses are not here, has the burnt offering stopped? The abomination that makes desolate is set up? None of it.
Daniel 12: doesn't even say that? Have you got the script mixed up with another
Read chapter 12.1 Daniel that is when the Rapture happens and you better know when that happens others wise you will be left behind and I was given it by the HOLY SPIRIT when it will be when upto the mark of the beast is given and those left behind will be hunted down and killed But when Michael stands up and the rapture happens and if you have wisdom and help from the holy spirit guide you will know I am right but check for yourself and not one Minister has this WHY? for if you tell the rapture is before the 7 years begin when the 7 years of peace between the Jews and Muslims But After Russia and its GOG war with its allies Muslim armies are destroyed by GOD and the pre trib rapture does not happen you will have the great falling away of the faith which GOD wants to happen with those who said there are Christians but are not or little faith but miss the true rapture when Michael stands up but were not to be taken out but will have to survive when GOD And Jesus come if their faith is restored and wait and survive to be taken up and transformed.
There will be 1260 days or three and one-half years of tribulation. A misunderstanding of Daniel 9:26-27 has been used to teach a 7 year tribulation. The Messiah came and confirmed his covenant for 3 and a half years, was crucified and the daily sacrifice has ceased. When he and John Baptist return to walk on earth as the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation 11:3 and in Zechariah, they will feed the flock, confirming the covenant during 1260 days of tribulation.