Bill Kristol and Scott Horton Debate U.S. Interventionism
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- Опубликовано: 7 окт 2021
- A leading proponent of the invasion of Iraq vs. the editorial director of Antiwar.com.
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On October 4, 2021, Bill Kristol, an editor at large of The Bulwark, went up against Scott Horton of the Libertarian Institute in an Oxford-style debate on U.S. foreign policy at Symphony Space in New York City.
Kristol was a leading proponent of the invasion of Iraq, the founding editor of The Weekly Standard, a foreign policy adviser to John McCain's 2008 presidential campaign, and chief of staff to Vice President Dan Quayle.
Scott Horton is the author of Enough Already: Time to End the War on Terrorism and Fool's Errand: Time to End the War in Afghanistan. He's the editorial director of Antiwar.com and the host of Antiwar Radio and the Scott Horton Show.
The debate was hosted by The Soho Forum, with Director Gene Epstein moderating.
Narrated by Nick Gillespie; production by Four Corners Media; intro edited by John Osterhoudt
Photos: Brett Raney; Gage Skidmore from Peoria, AZ, United States of America, CC BY-SA 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons
Scott obviously won by an enormous margin. But the fact that he just tells Bill to his face over and over again that he's a liar makes my respect for him grow so much more.
I wish we had videos of people doing that to all the fucking Neo-cons. But the media are fucking sycophants. Not journalists.
Indeed!
I loved when Kristol had absolutely NOTHING to counter Horton’s point that it is the neocons who “trivialize the Holocaust” by comparing every dictator in the world to Hitler.
He had nothing for everything Scott said. That was just one more
Surprised he didn't just say "well I never personally said that" or "well they shouldn't say that either"
Scott's weakest response was his response about Hitler being a unique evil. He's still in the shackles of WW2 propaganda. A much better response would have been Kristol trivializing the deaths of those who don't belong to his tribe. Much like Madeliene Abright.
He literally minutes after stated that China has concentration camps. The guy is the epitome of a hypocrite and is completely full of shit.
It's a sidestep though - the lie that USA invaded Europe to "stop the holocaust" or "save Jews" persists. The truth is of course that we invaded because FDRs Keynsian policies were a disaster and he needed a distraction.
As long as the mythology of that war remains, every neocon in history can point back to WW2 as a "successful example" of their model.
Notice every boomer instantly calls you Neville Chamberlain when you advocate non-interventionism?
Makes me sick that I used to view our interventions as just and moral. I was so wrong , misguided , and lied to. Simply disgusting. Thanks Scott, you’re on the right side of this and I really appreciate you speaking the truth!!
Same. I even joined the military in the 90’s (went nowhere, did nothing, thank God). Now Scott is one of my biggest heroes.
My father was in Vietnam. When we sent into Afghanistan I thought it was justified. When we went into Iraq I realized what was actually going on. I knew right off the bat nothing good was going to come from the "Patriot" Act. And fast forward to today and now we KNOW that nothing good came from it. Glad people are finally waking up.
What do think the world would look like if the US had spent the last 75 years a non-interventionist neutral country? You think the Soviet Union, left with no check to their power, would have spent the last 75 years creating a peaceful world with no injustice or loss of innocent human life?
Humans are selfish, violent, and destructive by nature. Yes, the last 75 years, which we dominated, have been bloody but there is no situation where it would not have been bloody and many situations where it would have been much worse (like the Soviets taking over Western Europe - something they would have been able to do if we were committed to neutrality)
How do you think the next 75 years will go if we start signaling an isolationist policy to the Chinese here today? You think an unchecked China is going to leave US interests in this world untouched or that loss of our interests in this world will have no impact on you and all the other citizens of this country? Only somebody extremely naive would believe that
@@andrewlm5677 blah-blah-blah anti-war of choice is "isolationism" blah-blah-blah. Being "involved" in the world is waging wars of choice, not doing so is isolationism blah-blah-blah. No in-between blah-blah-blah. Its either nothing, or omg the USSR takes literally everything, blah-blah-blah
We get it, same'ol baseless, light switch brain view and mantality. You'd think your ilk would have atleast tried to inject more nuance into your emaciated talking points. Youd think youd get tired by now. You're out of your damn mind, and none of your talking points stand up to reality. And thank god most Americans laugh at your foreign policy views, maybe the Republic will still be saved from such a suicidal national security war-state psychosis. Save yourself some breath and time and just say:
"I literally dont understand anything related to foreign policy, or the histroy of ours, and i dont care to learn or understand any of it, i was told these talking points and i came to my conclusions, not by my own research and analysis, but from an information middle man that spoon fed me my foreign policy views".
Its also been a literal generation since the USSR, keep up, bud.
@@liammarra4003 It seems like he was taking an all or nothing view. You take action to stave off something worse and that inevitably leads to some messy results. Messy results which were criticized here in this debate with a completely unnuanced view by your hero
Also, your response is pure idiocy. The willingness to accept military action was critical for containment of the Soviets. Your “blabla” response was the best you could come up with since you don’t have a real explanation for a tough question
This was legendary. This debate needs to be shared everywhere!!! Because I'm certain the mainstream media will quietly ignore it. Horton is spot on!!! Well done :)
Holy damn...THIS is why they don't let third parties into the major presidential debates, and you know it.
People couldn't handle the truth. People are better off being happy. Chaos would ensue if they knew the truth.
@@pythonanywhere3392 I'm fine with chaos. :D
You mean because they would use emotional and nonsense arguments to get people to think they're right? He does nothing but place blame on America. Some how Hitler is Americas fault. 911 was our fault. Every dictator who massacred their own people is some how Americans fault.
Hitler was a unique threat?... No he was a common threat in a unique situation which allowed his rise and pursuit of conquest. Actually listen to the debate rather then listening for "gotcha moments" it's embarrassing.
@@trentpeterson3495 It's not "somehow how Hitler was America's fault". He clearly explained the history of Hitler. And clearly explained the history of 9/11. That's pretty bad faith to say it was just an emotional argument.
@@trentpeterson3495 Ok. lol
This was the biggest massacre in a debate I’ve ever seen. Horton absolutely murdered Kristol, who ironically is one of the biggest mass murderers in history.
The past three decades prove and bare it out - to be sure!
Agree. Why would BK even agree to such a debate. I've heard he's really thick. Is he a coke head?
you are delusional
@@dddz961 not as delusional as the man credited for being the architect of what would lead to millions of civilian deaths calling other people “bad guys”. The cognitive dissonance was strong.
@@aerily1 I mean, look at the guy and listen to him. He literally doesn't think he can do wrong. His entire attitude in rebuttal to Horton was akin to a chef breaking an egg while making an omelet. He's so casual about the whole thing I'm surprised they didn't cut the stream, hand Scott a burner phone, and have him listen to his wife's terrorized screams. Scott trounced him that badly.
"There have always been injustices in the world, which allow evil men to recruit others to work to serve them."
Nice self-reflection, Billy.
Oof
58:33 for those interested in this exchange. Scott says well we should stop doing the injustices that provoke those evil men and all Bill can say is we didn't do injustices that caused 9/11. This is the heart of the debate.
Scott didn't do this debate for the audience, he did this to say this shit to BIll's face and really put it on his conscience.
You may be right. I think that’s one reason why it wasn’t a very good debate. A debate’s purpose is supposed to be to convince the audience of your POV.
@@erc9468 it was an amazing debate, look at the difference in the level of detail and specificity. All Kristol can do is give platitudes and assert that hes correct, he has no command of the details beyond what any lay member of the public would be able to repeat from watching CNN.
@@michaelfraser7010 It wasn't all that amazing, for a good debate you need a much greater overlap of viewpoints between the debaters to get to the point of nuance. The debaters were miles apart and they stayed miles apart. There is another exchange on RUclips on American interventionism that I thought was much better between Sam Harris and Dan Carlin.
Kristol has a conscience? You must be joking.
Conscience, hahahahahah. People like Bill would kill you with fork and in about three minutes would forget that ever happened.
"It could have been worse." - Bill Krystol's entire argument
Basically. But, like, it could have been - the USSR could have won the Cold War.
I think Krystol's principle makes sense - intervention sometimes helps, commitments to Korea and Taiwan should be honored - but Horton eviscerated him on practice. Krystol admits that "maybe we're over-extended," but he just vastly underestimates the extent, and does not understand just how sharply we need to re-evaluate our foreign policy if the US has any chance of avoiding internal collapse.
Every central planner says this.
@@artembolshakov3901 we should not be willing to put American lives at risk to protect Taiwan or Korea..and NATO is a relic of the cold war.. Also The USSR collapsed because their economic system was flawed. Not because of US intervention. You might make the argument that intervention helped bring about he collapse at a quicker pace, but they were destined to fail anyway.
@@Mat-threw Finishing up: capitalism is certainly better, but it's naive to think that those with the better theory always triumph over motivated, aggressive, competent adversaries. The USSR may well have engulfed the world before it's internal contradictions caught up with it and caused the "inevitable" collapse.
In the words of war criminal Henry Kissinger, "history helps those who help themselves."
Correction: "Maybe it could have been worse"
Kristol eventually said “look I’m anti-war”, if that isn’t an admission of defeat then I don’t know what is.
No indication of defeat at all..it's what war criminals all say when confronted with the truth.
“Look I’m anti-war” **has entire career of advocating for war**
You guys still don't get it... Zionists like Kristol are all for using America's military when Israel's security is on the line., otherwise he probably doesn't care.
Look, I'm anti-war***
*** Now that hundreds of thousands of people were killed and the Taliban has a whole country and 21st century weaponry rendering every single life lost in that war essentially completely meaningless.
and its a bad joke. he has never went on TV or wrote in his rag an opposition to any U.S. military intervention. He would like to see the U.S. take out Assad and the leadership in Jordan and Lebanon so Israel could more easily invade them and take their land.
When Horton mentioned Trotsky and glanced at Kristol and said "no offense," that was a sick burn. Kristol and the neo-cons were Trotskyite communists before turning into "conservatives." That was funny.
Kristols father Irving was a Trotskyite.
Oh, right, I'd forgotten about that. I'd wondered what I miss there.
I caught that too. So great!
Can you give a time stamp?
Wtf are you talking about?
Notice how Kristol just speaks in platitudes and generalities. Horton completely schooled him.
Kristol and soros run a pretty close race for most unlikeable humans that’s for sure, maybe Henry Kissinger can be thrown in there with them as well
Kristol speaks in Sunday talk show language.
@@joshuamichael2463 Ya, I recall years ago when Kissinger was testifying about something and the pink puzzy brigade showed up in court. I remember thinking 'what is their problem with Kissinger, they must be leftist kooks'. This was before I woke up. And now I get it because I have since read some of the evil that Kissinger believes in and has promoted.
@@summertime104 Code Pink are 100% Leftist kooks, but a broken clock can be right twice a day.
I kind of thought Kristol won. I loved his arguments and he makes great solid points. If you think this Horton fella won than you’re just an anti sem and your statement is automatically null and void as of right now. Please go read the Bible and stop bein anti s it’s really scary tbh
This is a clear violation of the great libertarian philosophy “The Non Aggression Principle.” Scott absolutely murdered him. It’s like kicking a baby in the head. Just brutal.
🤣
It was like kicking a baby in the head. Horton demonstrated just about that level of civility.
@@JimCarnicelli I was surprised we didn’t hear more blood soaked monsters from the crowd/Scott at the end.
@@JimCarnicelli I think Horton was about as civil as one could expect. Cristol, when confronted by the absolute failure of the ideology he promotes just doubles down.
@@isair81: I would encourage you to rewatch it. Kristol repeatedly acknowledged policy failures. Including ones he promoted. I wish he had a deeper insight into why that is, of course. Meanwhile Scott Horton was endlessly sanctimonious and promoting some of the most anti-liberal bile I've heard from a Libertarian. If I didn't know better I would have said he is a Soviet era disinformation plant trying to convince us of the opposite of everything we can see for ourselves and hate every last scrap of individualism and human rights we have.
Pretty bold of Reason to publish a snuff film on RUclips
Truly.. should come with a shock warning
🤣
Haha. What a great comment!
Honestly, why on earth did Kristol even agree to do this? He was so unprepared and Scott was so enthusiastic, excellent & educated. What would really have killed the debate before it even stated is if they both had to disclose their sources of income. Scott: podcasts, books and a website. Kristol: the defense industry.
When your life is spent surrounded by accolades for doing barbaric shit you start to believe your right and push that pesky morality to the side.
I'm truly shocked people don't think Kristol is right about everything. It all made sense to me. You have to take the macro global view of things.
Big picture....Do you want the last 75 years of no major powers going to war w/ one another, Europe at peace, communism defeated, the least violent & most prosperous time on earth, and the decolonization of Africa & SE Asia, South Korea, Taiwan & Japan as 1st world democracies
OR
do you want European & Japanese colonialism, global power politics btw about 5 or 6 evenly matched states, world wars, obstructed sea lanes, Europe at eachothers throats, China a disconnected mess, and "beggar thy neighbor" economics that was the world from 1880 to 1945 when America wasnt internationally engaged ???
The middle east is a very complicated, difficult region whose progress towards modernity has been horribly slow. They're all decolonized dictatorships & Islamic theocratic, so of course there is going to be civil strife and revolutions, Crackdowns, ethnic cleansings, terrorism etc. But I don't think it's fair to blame America for their condition. They've been like that well before 1990, or 2003.....even back to the colonial & Ottoman eras.
He was prepared, he just had shit arguments.
@@dukedematteo1995 America was internationally engaged it annexed Hawai, Puerto Rico, the Philippines (killing 200k Filipinos in the process), and Europe has not been more at peace, there were the Yugoslav Wars, the Troubles, the Soviet Invasions of Czechoslovakia and Hungary and ever since 2014 the ongoing Russo-Ukranian War.
@@tomasrocha6139 they had a short period in which they indulged with some European style colonialism themselves in the early 20th, but they didn't become a truly engaged international shot caller until after WW2.
My favorite part is Bill "having to catch a flight" at the end... Dude this was 2 years in the making. He pulled out of the debate like the US pulled out of Afghanistan.
😂
I always liked what George Carlin said about pulling out…
What's even more infuriating about this total waste of a human being was the fact that he literally put a mask back on to set there on stage. What an absolute train wreck he is.
Did they really tho?
Bill Kristol sounds like a old man far out of his time, a relic hanging on to a dead age. If he wasn't such a monster I might feel bad for him.
He is like most of his generation - live in fantasy and self romanticism. (Idolatry of self i.e abortion, sexual revolution, divorce culture, homosexual revolution all happened in 1960s and 1970s. They were adults in those days.) It is a shame the new generations have to live in their mistakes.
I'm just happy that he's FINALLY a relic. 2 decades of pointless useless war, continual attacks of US citizens' right, complete lawlessness within our government, Joe Biden is OPENLY accepting bribes through his son's "art".
This establishment isn't just blatantly corrupt, they have done tremendous damage to this nation. It couldn't be worse if we had a literal Manchurian candidate in the white house, with a military whose JOB is is to attack our institutions.
"Monster" is some otherizing, cult language. He's a man, men are flawed. Glad just how incorrect his ideas are has been exposed so indisputably, though.
@@deforestdelpech7528 Calling Kristol a monster is hardly out of line. His, OBVIOUSLY, flawed reasoning and justifications of all these stupid, pointless, bloody wars easily makes him a monster.
Either he's stupid, and I doubt he's stupid, or he's just plain evil.
Neoconservatism was known to be wrong in the 1980's. Reagan fired them all and put a few in jail. George H. Bush pardoned them, and brought them back into prominence.
Too bad Trump didn't fire them all and put them in jail.
He sounds archaic for our post war generation, but unfortunately his poisonous ilk still rule in the DC Beltway
Kristol must not have been familiar with Scott when he accepted this debate. A massacre.
Surely if he knew how Scott felt and some of the things that were likely to be brought up he wouldn’t have agreed to it, hopefully this video stays up awhile so more people can hear the truth
Agreed. That would be the last person I would debate in Horton, dude is wicked smart
The most astonishing thing is that Bill is shameless even after being proven wrong by Scott and history. Funny, how he had to leave quickly to catch a flight 😂😂
Shame it wasn't a helicopter ride.
He overcomes his shame, but still, the way he looks, the way he speaks, the way he phrases things, he's clearly embarrassed to say what he's saying.
Scott Horton is the greatest thing to happen to America since Thomas Paine.
Horton annihilated Kristol. Horton brought the receipts and Kristol was just giving his feelings about what we’re doing while also admitting a lot of US foreign policy was a mistake.
All of these not-Americans need to get out of my country and back to tel aviv where they belong.
Total massacre.
I tend to be very anti-Kristol and contra- Neocon. But I don’t really think it was a bloodbath. Horton seemed like he was reading an op-Ed, rather than engaging in debate. His delivery was off. In debates you need to go after your opponent’s ideas, not read lengthy quotes. Kristol sounded like the professor and Horton like the over earnest undergrad reading his term paper.
I think that Kristol was right that neither was very convincing to those who disagreed or were undecided.
It’s interesting how he basically just waves away millions of civilians dead, maimed or driven from their homes.
”Mistakes where made!” Yeah no shit Mr Cristol. Not that I think all that death & destruction bothers him all that much..
@@isair81 I really couldn't care less about them either. I defend my country on my terms. These are terrible for us no matter what happens abroad. Even if not a single civilian died, I would still oppose them.
Scott Horton's ideas are the ideas pf peace and prosperity. The man is a hero!
A hero? Laughable. A hero DOES something. Horton can talk "principles" all day - who can't? it's the easiest thing in the world. Put him in a position of wielding power - get him elected - with responsibility for millions and then let's see how his principles serve US. The world is a dangerous place and peacenik protectionists are useless. The US attempted to be non interventionist in both WW1 and 2. Bad decision. Intervening would have ended much sooner if the US had gotten in sooner - or maybe they would have deterred them altogether and millions of lives would have been saved.
@@canteluna that kind of warmonger thinking just makes more enemies.
There needs to be some sort of mercy rule in debates. That was a massacre. Well done Scott
Ya, they could've given Kristol a box of Kleenex I guess. lol
Nah, "if he dies, he dies." ~ Ivan Drago voice
Mercy is the act of cutting these people down
As Pablo Neruda said in a poem about the Spanish Civil War:
"And you'll ask: why doesn't his poetry
speak of dreams and leaves
and the great volcanoes of his native land?
Come and see the blood in the streets.
Come and see
The blood in the streets."
When you talk about death and destruction you shouldn't be "civil"
Maybe so, but the lolbertarian had some terrible takes too
I've never been more solidified in my anti-war beliefs. Thank you Scott for not missing the opportunity to take part in this debate. I couldnt think of anyone more capable of putting this piece of shit in his place!
Horton: Blizzards of evidence
Kristol response: "I don't believe you are right."
Hahaahha so true
Kristol... -> early life
You have a funny definition of “evidence”
@@nazmulchowdhury7675 every single time
Kristol: "I'm anti-war."..."liberty"...In the words of Inigo Montoya, "I don't think you know what that word means."
It’s infuriating.
I think Kristol looked so deflated because OP *is* correct in that he _actually_ believes it, but apparently doesn't understand the implications of what he's saying.
There are times where Horton bothers me just a little: he justifiably points out we spent more on defending oil shipments in the Persian Gulf than we spent on the oil itself, the "waste of $6 trillion" -- I'll get back to that in a second:
Our foreign policy has been 100% Kristol and 0% Horton for most of the last century, when I think it should be 90% Horton and 10% Kristol. We just spend so much on military now and use it almost completely indiscriminately.
What Horton skips, the 10% where Kristol is right, is if we don't put ships in and out of the Persian Gulf, you get issues that pop up like the Somali pirates -- there is *some* argument to be made that some amount of force projection is worth it, and essentially every government in the world agrees on that. (And they do, I've worked *_in_* the field of anti-piracy, training foreign governments and coast guards, etc., in this sort of stuff -- they are very glad the US's ships guard their coasts when stuff goes down.)
But this projection of force abroad needs to be limited to what's essentially policing of international norms and laws in international waters. Everyone is glad when you stop the pirates, or catch a shipment of slaves headed somewhere -- well, unless they're being sent to our ally the UAE, which we've caught using slave labor in their construction, then they and Saudi Arabia get pissed at us.
That's another one of our issues: we point out the legitimate evils of certain "mini-Hitlers" out there as an excuse to engage in warmongering, while totally ignoring how evil our allies often are. We're always absolute hypocrites about it all.
Like the 10% Kristol I'd want for government policy: imagine a scenario when the Mexican government gets so corrupted due to our ill-conceived War on Drugs (let's end that, but we can't rewind time to undo its effects), and the cartels are getting so powerful that you _literally_ have cartel head honchos running for President, running for Chiefs of police, etc., and it looks like the public is so scared to even vote against them in the election that the mass-murdering evil drug lords are gonna take over, and Mexico's President asks for some military presence to help prevent what's essentially a hostile takeover in their own little civil war. Seems like a good idea to intervene.
China invading Outer Mongolia? Hell no, why the hell would we intervene in that? It was hard enough getting to Afghanistan, and that's an even _more_ insane place to try to get your military to... just logistically it makes zero sense, but morally, "is this a good use of our military and the public's resources, only to further cause tensions with the horrible CCP regime?"
Nah, F that.
@@TransRoofKorean it seems like small private security navies could deal with pirate issues at a tiny fraction of the resource and political cost of the USA deploying its navy on the other side of the world.
@@OnTheRogersJourney Yes and no. Don't forget the value of having, say, the Fifth Fleet just out there patrolling and doing exercises, in terms of being warfare ready and competent.
It's always that George Washington line: "the best way to prevent war is to be ready for it at all times". Some of Sun Tzu but in American terms, I guess.
I don't disagree the private would be cheaper, but you have to ask yourself exactly what value you put on having an actually super-capable military, as well. In my book, it's extremely valuable, but our deployment of it for the last 50 years has been horrifyingly terrible.
“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
Scott is a national treasure. God bless him
Bill was legitimately offended that Scott would bring up all of the deaths he is directly responsible for.
Scott deserved to have the debate and I'm glad he was able to get it. Completely destroyed his opponent, which clearly had not prepared or done any research on who he would debate. But then again, I'm sure he's not used to doing research before jumping into things
I loved the "Trotsky" jab at Kristol. 🤣
I think I got that jab, haha. But I'm just not 100% on it. Care to elaborate?
@@adrianmarquez8345 Bill Kristol’s dad, Irving Kristol, one of the founders of neoconservativism, was a Trotskyite
@@pylianpbappe8898
Ah! Gotcha
@Ivan Zhao
Right??
@adrianmarquez8345 he used to be a trotskyist like many neocons of today
I was surprised how lazy and uninterested Kristol seemed. He had few actual responses other than “that was a success” “I’m against X policy that didn’t push hard enough” or “we need regime change because of Trumpism”.
That feeling when a war criminal at the end of a debate says I need to leave quickly to catch a plane without taking any questions 😂
Scott more than made up for Kristol's laziness and cowardice. Not just on foreign policy strictly, but also its effects on the culture war at home, the economy, etc.
He brought the reciepts. He knew names, dates, and had all his facts in order. Kristols laziness was unreal.
Headline:
Anti-war activist shows up to debate pro-war neocon and commits verbal murder.
I believe a debate is about persuasiveness; Scott Hortons whole argument basically amounted to deaths and how "uniquely" evil hitler was and how other dictators shouldn't be compared to him. Problem is evil is evil no matter the reason or action. In regards to Kristol being lazy; I would reconcile that by saying that he didn't feel the statement required a rebuttal. In some cases, that alone is more persuasive.
Every war has a starting point; but to say that America started these wars without definitive proof to me is a stretch. Scott was however right about two things. One; we have accumulated casualties in our quest for liberty and two; we should have enlisted the help of the taliban when we first had talks with them. However; it should of been done in a business venture manner and not just "peace talks" because when dealing with unknowns, you shouldn't show weakness.
@Otto Gaenafiel The fuse that lit the war not just an anecdotal statement. Yes he gave times and dates but never explained Americans involvement exactly. Only stating "if we hadn't done this" or "hadn't done that, the world would be better for it." To me that is a more self serving statement than a persuasive one.
Man, as a Hungarian, hearing Kristol talk about Central Europe the way he does around 10:00 really creeps me out... These people really believe they have the right to tell everyone in the world how they should live. Us, going back? We are probably further away from communistm than ever. Pathetic.
Luckily, Horton put him down.
The globalists sure hate Hungary and yet I would feel safer having my wife and daughter walk alone in Budapest than in any capital in Western Europe including my native Sweden
As an American, I’m considering leaving the US for Hungary. I want to be surrounded by anti-communists.
@@mattiasdahlstrom2024What are your thoughts on Barbara Spectre and her opinion on Sweden & Europe?
Yeah as a german I had the same reaction to how he spoke about europe, made it sound like we are a bunch of savages that need to be kept in check.
@@DiscovererAlpha Well in terms of Germany, they're pretty much owned by the US and have zero chance of true independence
Kristol's rebuttal: IMAGINE how much worse it COULD have been if we had not intervened. And, IMAGINE how bad it MIGHT be if we withdrew from countries we have a military presence in.
Bill Kristol ought to tell those in the Chicago streets sleeping in doorways and shaking cups for loose change that spending upwards of a trillion dollars annually to garrison the planet isn't anything to be scoffed at.
wealth isn't a zero sum game. less war would make those people get a job. and we're not going to hand out a bunch of welfare just because we aren't at war.
I inn n. In nnnnnnnn. Nnnnnnnn
Hubby by yup
Bill Kristol is anti war. I just choked on my coffee.
I was running while listening to this. When he said that, I laughed audibly just as I passed a group of pedestrians. They must have thought I was insane.
I had the same reaction.
One wonders which of the many interventions that the United States was involved in since World War II Kristol would have opposed. I've never heard of one. Indeed, he wanted at least one more in Rwanda.
I had the same reaction. Apparently if you call it "intervention" it isn't war.
Bill Kristol is anti-war.
And Charlie Manson was for peace and love.
Kristol had no chance against Horton.
🤣 never. Scott is a monster
@Donald Thorpe but he is a conservative who’s is liked by other conservative noses that u worship like bennnnnn shappiirrooo. You bend the knee to these people. Stop lying to your self
@@ChicagoMike85 Jacobins are not conservatives
Bill Kristol's mealy-mouthed, weasel-worded arguments are utterly loathsome.
Kristol's body language and delivery in his opening statements were early admissions of defeat. He clearly knew he was trying to defend a position that was indefensible. It was like he bracing for impact. He didn't even want to be there.
The most revealing thing is that Kristin doesn’t realize that he is objectively a demon from hell.
Yes he does, he just doesn’t care.
Even with the misspelling I 100% agree
@@charlesbaldo 🤣 yes
Maybe the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing himself he didn't exist.
@@charlesbaldo im retarded but my instincts are good
I just want to say that this was as good as I'd hoped. Nobody could watch that and side with Kristol. Scott Horton is a national treasure. Incredible!! Huge thanks to Gene and the Forum.
Correction: that man is an international treasure. Absolute legend, we should protect this man at all costs lol
I side with kristol. He made great arguments and he was eloquent. You’re just a hater. But deep down inside you know kristol won
@@ChicagoMike85 A hater of Warhawks sure.
@@ChicagoMike85 lol how??? Scott cited precisely how our government failed to prevent 9/11, why the hijackers attacked us, and how the Bush admin. protracted the war when it could’ve been over in 1-2 months. Kristol responded with nothing but platitudes. Leave neoconservatism brother, I’m glad I did. Now I know the truth about how corrupt our politicians can be.
@@ChicagoMike85 Kristol lost in his opening statement when he praised masks and covid vaccines. What a fucking dummy🤣🤣
We are so fortunate to have Horton. Been listening to him for 15 years. Never would have thought we'd actually get to see him demolish one of the architects of the dark period following 9/11.
I almost entirely agree with Mr Horton in this debate.
I did cringe just a bit when he suggested that there was something delusional about concerns about creeping shariah law.
Yes, the threat at the time was minimal to “non existence”, but it was not unreasonable.
A vast number of the people opposed to any acceptance of shariah in America are not anti muslim. They are against anything seeking to supersede the US Constitution.
Just recently the left found this out. I don’t specifically recall the city but the city council is now entirely Muslim and they sited their religion in their opposition to pride flags in public places.
People have no problem pointing out and protesting when it appears that Christian beliefs are seen as guiding public policy but because of the underlying notion of “Islamophobia”, it becomes intolerable to question the same of muslims.
But to be clear, this is a simple disagreement on a rather minor point overall.
@@frankphillips7436it was always dumb. No way to impose sharia law less when Muslim population makes less than 3 percent of our population, even less during 9/11. If they wanna invade they would need to cross either two oceans or border which was actually secure at the time.
The reality of the US intervention in Syria that Mr. Kristol speaks so highly of. If the CIA didn’t import, arm, train, fund, and provide diplomatic and media coverage for foreign Islamic extremists to overthrow the Assad government, there wouldn’t have been a civil war in Syria or a refugee crisis in Europe.
As a Veteran that is staunchly anti-war, this was incredibly cathartic. Scott killed it and I'm very impressed at the depth of knowledge he brought to bear against Kristol. I consider myself a leftist and very against the Neo-Con Neo-Liberal mindset that appears to seek the very destruction of the fabric of our society.
If you’re a leftist, you shouldn’t comment on here; please leave the adults alone
@@frankpepe2079 I'm a leftist because I understand civics and have a degree in business and economics. From my perspective, Libertarians understand neither.
@@frankpepe2079 Which leftists are you referring? Real, academic, scientific left recognizable to leftists internationally or American, MSM taught synthetic leftist?
@@elkay18 I'm a leftist in the same sense as Karl Marx, Fred Hampton, and Che Guevera. The so-called left of our MSM (manufactured consent) is just another corporate arm of the right. They don't care about issues that impact labor or the very poor and destitute. They are the reason this country has slid further and further to the right. I hope this answers your question.
@@BramSLI1. Another comrade who appreciates Scott Horton. Hola, amigo!
Horton has such a talent for speaking casually and conveying information in a digestible way. But his greatest talent is his ability to switch over and give a truly powerful statement when the time comes.
I'm just 41 minutes into this debate and I'm already tired of hearing Kristol use the word "democracy" over and over and over!
freedom, democracy, holocaust are all words used to control americans
Democracy has nothing to do with freedom. Democracy is a soft variant of communism, and rarely in the history of ideas has it been taken for anything else.
-- Hans-Hermann Hoppe
Bill Kristol: Do you want us to take away the crutches after we broke your leg?
Scott Horton: How about we stop breaking legs to start with?
Bill Kristol: That's just trivial.
Scott Horton truly was magnificent here against the lifeless Bill Kristol. One can just judge the mannerisms, Horton was energetic, focused and prepared. Kristol spoke monotone, and was just deflated by Horton's relentless pursuit of holding the war mongering neocon Kristol to account, in his years of being behind the apathetic machenry that gave us manufactured wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Syria, Libya and Indochina. Horton not only resoundingly won in the debate, he won it for the Libertarian Institute and libertarian's as well.
Pretty well stated
What you saw as apathy was actually thinly disguised disgust at Horton's barely civil demagoguery. Kudos to Krystol for keeping his cool. And this opinion comes from someone who doesn't agree with necons like Krystol on their views of American hegemony.
@@JimCarnicelli No reason to be civil with your enemy. Kristol was pissed because he had his face constantly shoved into his own shit for a change. Instead of engineering the deaths of innocent people Kristol should read more Musashi.
"Anger. Control your anger. If you hold anger toward others, they have control over you. Your opponent can dominate and defeat you if you allow him to get you irritated."
"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie."
@@JimCarnicelli Disagreement w.neocons-sure you do. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that you describe the other side as "demagoguery" when in debate with a neocon, when the world Kristol wants is the US imposing its left-wing liberal values of feminism, the fetishization of democracy, cultural marxism and the like on every other country in the world whether they want it or not. Nothing "demagogic" about that. No, the mind our own business American libertarian is the "demagogue". Uh-huh.
@@JimCarnicelli Nobody is buying your claim that you "disagree with neocons like Krystol and their views of American hegemony."
If you disagreed, you would for a reason. And then you would have NO problem with Horton's still mightily civil conduct.
But nice try on the attempt.
This will not get the attention it deserves.
It couldn’t possibly. It deserves to be required viewing every year k-12
Then do your part and link as many people to this as you can
I posted it on Ricochet. I like to poke the Neocon hornet's nest.
It was very boring. Bill Kristol has me falling asleep
@@ghxstleader485 Boring!? Scott called him a Trotskyite to his face!
I was ecstatic when I first heard that this debate had been planned, but I could hardly dare to believe that Kristol of the Skull Kingdom would actually follow through. Blessed be his courage, foolhardiness, or both.
No one is commenting how respectful and tolerant the Soho Forum, the Crowd, and Kristol were - despite the vast disagreement. Kristol was going into enemy territory, and everyone behaved gentlemanly. What a brilliant environment, and important forum for ideas.
While I'm on Scott's side generally I think he came off hysterical and it hurt his arguments.
There is something about behaving like a gentleman and conducting yourself with dignity.
Kristol does seem polite and agreeable despite being wrong about everything.
Agree. Quite the rarity these days.
He's literally a fascist who sends Americans and proxy soldiers to their deaths to fight for oil and wealth whilst destroying whole countries, killing millions of civilians and displacing 50mn. Pardon me for not complimenting him.
War criminals will always lose when the truth can comes out
For a guy who is so against war, Scott just nuked that fucking place
I appreciate your profile pic, sir
They'll still win every election though, because you "have to" vote for one of the 2 war criminals otherwise a war criminal will win.
Ben Shapiro was smart to turn down this debate. But still it would have been nice to see Scott debate someone who could at least use Google.
Both of them belong in prison.
Where did you hear it was suppose to be Ben Shapiro debating Scott?
Wait, Ben Shapiro was supposed to debate Scott? On the same subject?? I never heard anything bout that...
If Shapiro was tapped first to do this debate I would have preferred that just because of Ben's popularity. It would've been nice to see his fanboys get exposed to Scott Horton.
@@adrianmarquez8345 I think i saw a tweet from scott at some point that years ago Gene had tried to reach out to Shapiro's people but never got a response.
What type of passport does Billy boy Kristol have. Everything he does is to the benefit of a foreign state. Seems ridiculous to me that a war criminal can debate someone at all.
Wow, still just blown away by Scott's knowledge. I don't get how these fools like Kristol, or Ben Shapiro or Mark Levin are so popular while it seems relatively few know about Scott Horton.
Kristol Shapiro and Levin all have one thing in common: They are Jewish
Bill Kristol was in such a rush to get out of there because he got wrecked and exposed as an out of touch hawk.
Hey no fair, he said at the beginning he needed to catch a plane right after the show! Lol
Didn't he say he had explosive diarrhea?
"Trotsky, no offense" LOL!
Fucking great. Kristol would never admit it.
🤣🤣 I almost spit out my coffee
Kristol was like, "Putin killed journos", which is awful, but I was thinking, "What about Assange?" When the "foe" does it, it's a mortal sin, but when "our guy" does it it's an understandable mistake.
Assange is not a journalist. He engaged in espionage and got Americans killed.
Well he's not dead for starters
This Scott Horton, he's amazing! He shows real situation in the world. That's so seldom these years.
Kristol was doomed from the start. Still fun to watch the stuffing fly out of him in the face of Horton’s effortlessly masterful deployment of his peerless intellect.
Post this video everytime Kristol tweets
And be on Twitter? Hard pass
Best reason I've heard yet to get a Twitter account.
Having a front row seat to this was one of the highlights of the year for me.
Did Kristol seriously put a mask on? What a nerd...
Kristol did absolutely no preparation for this debate haha. Pathetic.
He was as prepared as he always is for every interview, op-ed, and live appearance. This was Krystal at his best.
Good point.
In the last few years, Kristol has come face-to-face with his bloody and bankrupt elitist delusions. Rather than choose to lay down his eviscerated ideology and admit the error, he has simply given up trying and merely shows face occasionally to eke out a few dimes to get him through his winter of waning life and significance. One can only wonder whether he permits his armor of denial to be penetrated occasionally by the sharp arrows of knowing what a loser he has been all along, which is now glaringly evident to absolutely everyone.
Casually admitting that Iraq may have been a bad idea was really something to behold! But he hasn’t learned anything, pretending that the current situation in Syria is a result of American non-intervention. If calls for a full on invasion of Syria, due to some new inconceivable provocation, began tomorrow, Bill would be the grand martial of the parade. He just fell back on the aww shucks, everyone meant well attitude. No, we aren’t children, Krystol: great power geopolitics has never been about doing good for others. “Benevolent hegemony” is about the silliest phrase one could come up with.
@@jtwilliams8895 The US is at war with Syria principally to protect Genie Energy's investment in mining oil resources from the Golan Heights. They made this agreement with Israel to mine it in mid 2013, and finalized it in late 2013.
The claim that Assad was gassing people in Ghouta may be 1) false, 2) a false flag perpetrated by the CIA/Mossad/Mi6 3) true - and SUPER CONVENIENT. That gave the justification for the US to make war.
On the Strategic Board of Directors of Genie Energy sits Dick Cheney, Rupert Murdoch, Robert Woolsey, Jacob Rothschild and other unseemly people.
The US NEVER goes to war on humanitarian grounds, that's just the lie we keep being told. I wonder if Kristol really don't realize this? I don't think it's possible he can be that ignorant or oblivious, he's just paid to be.
Pretty sure he hugs his grand children, sleeps peacefully and will die surrounded by loving family. The most tempting thing about religion for me is the idea of hell. I'd even be willing to go if some other people would get their comeuppance.
all enemies of the US are thugs
@@jtwilliams8895 "pretending that the current situation in Syria is a result of American non-intervention"
That's not pretending. That's the truth.
"That gave the justification for the US to make war."
The US didn't.
Wow! Bill Kristol was absolutely trounced in this debate. His empty arguments for the new world order were in stark contrast to Scott Horton’s factual account of the absolute failure and utter destructiveness of post WW II US foreign policy.
Kristol running away after the debate says it all.
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen someone who's come into a debate with less preparation that Kristol. Scott Horton is an awesome proponent of his side of the argument and Kristol is just over there looking like he got picked out of the audience at random.
How could Kristol possibly prepare for this? He's wrong. It's blatantly obvious the Neocons are wrong. Neocons don't care about freedom, or liberty, or human rights. It's just a facade.
They ONLY reason they care about, say, Taiwan, is economic interests there.
@@richardwicks4190 I think they "care" about Taiwan because they are in love with the "glory days" of WW2 and Taiwan will probably be their best chance of igniting a war with China. These people are as dangerous to the USA as any commies, because they would drive the nation into any unwinnable conflict, apparently no matter what the cost.
@@OnTheRogersJourney I certainly agree that the Neocons are extremely dangerous to the United States, but so are the Neoliberals.
Antifa are Fascists and BLM are black supremacists and the standard DNC party, promotes BOTH.
Neocons, Neoliberals - they are BOTH our enemies.
Never forget, the Neocons started out as being a bunch of Stalinists. They are communists, that *supposedly* "saw the light". What in truth they are, are nothing more than authoritarians.
And the Neoliberals are no different.
He was prepared, he just had shit arguments.
What does he care about being proved wrong; you all keep voting in the same people who he advises and bribes to keep going to war. He has nothing to fear from losing a debate watched by negligible amount of people.
Scott seems to understand Friedrich Nietzsche’s warning about gazing into the abyss and the ‘monsters’ we fight.
Yes! This!!
This is the first time in 20 years where I've seen Bill Kristol forced to listen to reason.
That was like watching Mike Tyson fight a two year old. WTG Scott!
Iran, Guatemala, Chile, Australia, Argentina, El Salvador, Honduras, Indonesia, Iraq, Dominican Republic, Bolivia, Venezuela - all countries with democratically elected leaders that we got rid of because we didn't like their politics.
"We" are not the government. The government makes decisions that serves the interest of the government and the rest of the elite strictly. We didn't get rid of any democratically elected leaders, corrupt US politicians did. (Know your enemy)
The CIA has overthrown over 88 Government's around the world.
I can't even imagine why anyone would listen to Bill Kristol. We are doomed.
which is it? are we doomed or is nobody listening to kristol?
Problem: terrorist attacks because of aggressive foreign policy.
'Solution': more aggressive policy.
Gosh dang Scott is the best. I’m so glad I’ve supported his work all this time. He’s sharing a stage with the blood soaked Bill Kristol? And he absolutely destroyed him? I almost can’t believe this actually finally happened. Christmas came early.
did Kristol seriously say that he's anti-war?
I know!
I mean, that tracks with his ability to perceive reality.
That shit was so silly I had to quote it on twitter
He is anti-war. If the US ever decided to attack Israel he would be against it.
@@mikedunn9310 thats ridiculous 🤣
Can’t believe Kristol had the gall to quote Mises “war is the health of the state”
That would be Randolph Bourne, but yeah, still can’t believe it!
46:00
"no offence"
lol. You think Kristol caught that?
Do we think Kristol had any idea what he was in for here?
He's a lot mpre assertive and condescending in his writing than when he's in a debate. Conversely, Scott is consistently amazingly informed and passionate, evoking the correct amount of outrage.
I think he realized it after a few seconds. You see him look up and at Horton when it registers in his mind
I was rock hard through this whole debate
Crowd after Kristol's rebuttal: Wut?
I'm surprised Kristol walked directly into this spinning helicopter blade. Just shows his lap of judgement.
Someone call the cops, I just witnessed a murder😂 Scott you are a phenom Im glad youre on our side!
Harry Browne would have been proud of you Scott. I know I am.
Scott looks badass when he’s talking
How the FuuuUUUUUuuuck does Kristol basically open up with mentioning the financial cost of our wars isn't a problem. Just shrugs it off. Like, literally shrugs it away. 'Whatever, we can always print more money. And the people who employ the people I'll eventually work for and give money to my bosses are happy to not worry about how much money they earn.......'
I sincerely can’t believe there are people like Kristol out there that actually believe what he is saying
are you kidding? these guys are common in the US gov't. plus, BOTH parties have them as well.
A sociopath is a narcissist that lacks empathy and remorse. One out of 20 people are sociopaths. They are very manipulative and convincing people. It is hard for naive people to see through their lies.
@@RKZX2 no I understand they are common, but for most it seems to be a grift to gain more power or reward their donors. It seems like Bill truly believes that the world is a better place as a result of nation building. Other neocon warhawks like McCain didn’t think that way, they just enjoyed subjugating and destroying the world.
@@JohnSmith-xy7lt Most of these idiots live in their own bubble huffing their own farts. Some of them know they're scam artists, but a lot of them don't know how reviled they are until people at NASCAR are chanting Let's Go Brandon.
Agreed. What's more, it's the Kristols that formulate/ inform US foreign policy. The Scott Horton's do not have a chance in the State Department
Scott Horton "facts, stats, great arguments, history, more facts"
Bill Kristol "I think that's naive and I'm not going to address anything you said"
that is always the response to libertarian arguments. it works.
4th time watching. Mr. Horton was excellent
4th time?! The video just came out. What kind of marathon session?
@@JETZcorp bootleged it before this
Yup I'm on my 3rd
How do I download this video, just the one without permanent subscription. This is for keeps. For my kids when they are of age....
What a trainwreck from Kristol. "Just intervene. It's always justified."
I love how Crystal’s arguments are just broad answers that basically point to Scott having a naive view on foreign policy…he’s mastered the art of saying absolutely nothing while speaking.
"OH MY GOD STOP THAT MAN! HE'S KICKING THE ABSOLUTE GUTS OUT OF THAT OLD GUY!!!!"
Stop, stop! He's already dead!
I've been looking forward to this. Thanks @reason I've been curious as to what Bill has to say for himself and the disasters that were these wars have been.
1:20:42 "Assume good faith"
1:21:29 "I think Mr. Horton's positions are naive"
Almost made it a minute, Mr. Kristol. What a dingleberry.
Krostol's arguments reminded me of pro-socialism arguments where advocates claim it would work great if it was simply done the right way. Kristol takes it for granted that foreign interference is absolutely necessary but suggests we need to do it better than we have.
Because at their core, Neocons, are still "Permanent Revolution" Trotskyists.
This is what it looks like when one guy has prepared for this for weeks, and the other guy forgot there was an event and then the night before said "I'll just wing it"
I almost chocked on my own beer when i heard Bill say "I am anti war" Lol.
The fact that Bill Krystol said he is anti war is hilarious, he has never seen a war that he didn't support.
"Putin's talking points" ... the new Hitler had a dog hahah
Ive been waiting over a decade for this!