Great video! One thing that would really help the project and save everyone who builds such battery time is checking each battery BEFORE you solder them into one pack.
@@highervoltage5430 Thanks for your video.. still relevant even after all these years. Question... I am going to build a battery using 8x 26650 cells for my bike... I was thinking of using an active BMS to protect the cells from over and undercharge as well as balancing. I'm trying to choose the right max current capacity for the BMS, but I don't know how much current a starter motor usually draws when starting a cold engine. Is it more than 100A or less? Have you used any active BMS's before that you could recommend? Many thanks! Dean
Normaly you disconnect the negative lead first, not the red one. This is because you can accidentaly touch the body of the car/bike with the loose lead and short the electronics with charge left inside the capacitors. It's like mixing drinks - you can mix vodka with vodka all the time, but don't mix it with whiskey, rum or anything else (though a pint of beer after a bottle of vodka never did me any harm).
It looks like you are drawing power directly from the battery (not via BMS)and charging battery directly as well (not via BMS). The BMS you are using will only balance the cells, but not protect against overcharging / over dis-charging. If this is true, you'll destroy this battery pretty fast. Potentially you are dealing with a Li-Ion battery that can catch on fire right under your seat and next to your fuel tank. Good luck.
Very good video. I would consider hooking up one single set of batteries (4x18650 in series) in parallel with a super capacitor pack - 6x500F 2.7V with balance board to provide 16v(max) 83F capacitor pack. The capacitor provides a large amount of cranking amps. I would use on Yamaha XT250 enduro.
These LiFEPO4 70 amp batteries are 7.50 each x 24 = $180 just for the batteries. You can buy a complete LiFEPO motorcycle battery from Shorai for $150.
You can knacker an 18650 by applying heat to the middle of the negative end. Try and keep it the outside and use a spot welder to keep the heat to a minimum. You can make a good spot welder with a12v car battery, a momentary switch and a solenoid.
If my memory is good, it's been known for a long time (since around WWII) that crimp connectors, properly done, are superior. For speed (that helped us win the war, because the Germans were soldering their field phones, which takes longer) and resistance to flexing and vibration (because the spot where solder stop wicking up the wire is a transition from stranded wire to effectively solid wire, the strands break, one by one, at that point, from flexing).
I'm sure I remember reading that crimp type connectors help win the war. Wikipedia says 1953, but, that could be when they went commercial, I guess. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimp_(electrical)
A battery balancer is not a complete BMS. The balancer has no way of cutting off the battery from the outside world like a complete BMS is able to. Because of that it does not keep the battery from over charging or over discharging and it does not protect against excessive charging current or excessive discharging current.
@@electricalfive2248 And the solenoid will prottect he LiFePo cells against over/under discharge? No it won't... And the starter isn't the only thing drawing power. And that balancer he used has minimal balancing current. Better to use one of the cheap ACTIVE balancers.
@@electricalfive2248 no problem. You didn't call me stupid. I agree that a BMS for car starting currents would be very expensive. For a motorcycle it might not be a big problem
@@sunny_froyo nickel plates is better on lithium based batteries as they dont oxidise the way copper does.. This is one benefit of not having short circuits in the long run..
My 1972 Triumph has a kick starter AND a battery... originally a LEAD ACID battery... oh, I forgot to mention I'm wrapping up my Master's in engineering. I have an unused, never filled, still sealed lead acid battery on the shelf waiting for a project.
As much as you know about this stuff.... You really should be wearing PPE gear. Like when you hose out the battery box without eye protection. Next time just dump baking soda to neutralize the acid, then rinse with low pressure.
Just found this video. Looking to make a battery for my rzr sxs but I have that exact same motorcycle. Mine is painted Black diamond. Just thought I would share. Nice video.
Yes.... thinking just to add starting power to my Hayabusa, not completely replacing it. When my motor hot up, it hesitate for starting. I'm thinking to add some amps to fixing this inconvenience. How do I design it extra cells?
I have an 3s 5p 16ah battery pack in my 50ccm scooter can also start an car :D bms with cutoff for safety and a modified charge limiter to 12.3v for not stressing the cells works perfect since last year
@@quartzii_uwu Possible pictures of the installation method, the board used, and whether the startup works on it directly. Thank you for your interest in responding
@@abdodarwish3334 hey , it would be a mess to reach the charge controller you can also use normal 12.6v charge controller with a little bit of wiring theyill work also
Thanks, I plan to build one. I know this video is few years old so the links may be no longer good but if you just give them out as reference then help a lot of us.
Rather don't solder on them, few of mine vented during soldering. Ordered a spotwelder on AliExpress two weeks ago because of this. But the LifePO4 cells were a few years old already and holding between 1000-1200mah out of 1400.
TX90 connectors are good for connect battery . It is very easy take along or use two separed battery. No any good reason use lead acid battery parts to make new.
My new MC came with i Li battery., and it died after one year. The battery in my Honda SH-50 1986 is still working.. It started the moped in a pile of snow at -20C, so, I will by a lead acid battery for the MC
Something I feel needs to be mentioned. This battery is MUCH LIGHTER than Lead or AGM. A similar name brand lithium motorcycle battery is $159-$225 (antigravity).
And the anti gravity is about 1/3 of the ah too. A 6.5ah antigravity replaces a 12-14ah lead acid. Lithium batterys love to hide AH and just boasts about CCA
Hello, my question is about the charge that the batteries are taken from the motorbike alternator, does go through the BMS or direct to the poles of the battery? and is the bms only for balancing the pack? how much ampers is the pack receiving from the alternator, because the voltage logicaly must be from 13,8 - 14,4 if i am right!!! Thank you!
A LiFePO4 cell is more suitable (cheaper, and safer) to use for a car or motorcycle battery. The main reason is that the nominal voltage of this cell chemistry is 3.2V (12.8 V for 4 in series). A lead-acid battery has a nominal voltage of 13.6V. The motorcycle's charging voltage (usually 14.4V) is just perfect for LIFePO4 cells. The battery will not be over-charged. Also, the BMS you use should be rated for at least 100A output as he starter motor will draw around 100A. The one you used here looks too small.
Lead acid nominal is 12 exactly iirc. With lifepo, the situation is that the nominal voltage is basically quite a discharged state. Whether that's good or bad, hard to tell but probably fine, as long as the alternator isn't faulty and provides sufficient voltage to actually charge it properly.
If you disconnect ground first and connect ground last, then a wrench/screwdriver accident between positive and chassis isn't so spectacular. You can guess how I've learned this...
Do NOT try this, if you don't know the risks and you don't know how to use the tools. If you are not sure..............just go to a battery store :) . safety first. Ps: I'm electronic engineer , not a battery seller . And this video is perfect ! Well done Alex.
I'm tempted to try this in all of Yamaha wisdom they used a 14b mini-bike battery to crank over my 1900cc V-twin the highest peak output or CCA is 210 with the yuasa AGM battery at $140 if they would of allowed 1/2" more room for the battery it would of made this so much easier
Mey friend good for you. but my bike battery ytx12bs 12v 12ah.. buuut Cca: 180AH.. (Cold cranking amps - CCA).. Cold cranking amps (CCA) - CCA is critical to the ability to start the vehicle when the engine is cold. The number of amps a battery at 0 degrees Fahrenheit can deliver for 30 seconds until the battery voltage drops to an unusable level. And this one BMS blow up... AND in this case the BMs also blow fuses.. Even if I use a high amperage bms...What do you think I should do in this situation?
Great video. I'd like to make this. As I try to buy 18650s I'm finding they come in different amperages (2500mAh, 3500mAh, etc.). Just wondering what was the amperages of the 18650s used in this video? Same goes for the BMS. I'm finding em for sale everywhere from 4s-2500mA to 4s-3500mA.
So no bike this day :-) Looking to buid small one for my 2t ktm, not for weight but power. I run added 40w led light for night riding. Thanks for video.
You don't have to do anything. a 4 cell LiFe battery is capable of 14.8 volts without damage. Most alternators have a voltage cut off between 13.2 and 13.6 volts.
Thanks, I was looking for this instruction specifically, as I only found instructions for cars or e-bikes. I'll definitely try this once my maintenance free battery goes to sh*t. However, I'll also try to apply some lessons from other channels like using a spot welder.
I also have an old 6V, no starter machine. Headlight is 35W, tail and number light 5W and I want to remember the ignition is like 25 W. The system needs to handle a bit above 10 A. I guess two 18650 cells In series would be enough? Maybe parallel that for a lite more capacity.
why a 4s? It seems it wont fully charge being 16.8 full and 12v dead. I suppose if it works its worth a try. my alternator only goes to about 14.5v max.
Bone dry standard battery? Maybe if you had added water when necessary and kept it charged, you wouldn't have to spend valuable riding time making one.
I have a lithium battery. This week I went to my bike and it started no problem, rode to a friend ten miles away came out and all electrics were dead as a dodo. Nothing, no lights on the display. I pressed the button on top of the battery - nothing. I tried to bump start it - no go. I thought this cannot be the battery, so it must be a circuit problem. I had to go back with a trailer. When I got home I put jump leads on the battery and it started. When in the garage I turned the key and the battery produce nothing, I pressed the button on the battery and behold it worked this time! I will never buy another lithium battery. If I had had an acid/lead battery it would not have started and then failed after the ride and caused me all this trouble and time wasted. Maybe they should supply jump leads when you buy the batteries, as you will need them!
A flooded lead acid battery for a CB 750 is what $50 minimum? Most 18650s LiFe batteries i've seen go for about $45 per 24. When you factor in the other components, how much did you end up saving? Not to mention time, energy, skill, safety, tools, etc. Why not just buy an AGM? Or find a way to rig a regular rc car battery pack?
From all the research I haven't done yet I believe a ton of RC car batteries aren't 12 volt. They'll obviously have one or two. So if you find out why not comment below.
shae grover I'm sorry, I should have clarified. I was referring to the11.1v 3 cell Lipo battery backs with a nominal charge voltage of around 12.6v commonly used in rc aircraft and cars. However, LiFe are probably still ideal for long term storage use without proper maintenance like an inexpensive trickle charger you would use on a lead acid. Li-Fe (I forget how many cells these typically have) packs are around 6.6v with a 7.2v nominal charge, as described in the video, this is a fairly useful range if you were to use them in a series configuration. Of coarse lithium Ion like they use in the real motorcycle batteries would be even less expensive than the already cheap LiPo, but they tend to have a shorter shelf life and faster self discharge rate if i'm not mistaken. But it does all come down to wether or not you properly maintain a battery. Trickle charging, indoor storage, and observing fluid levels if it's a flooded battery, will certainly improve the life expectancy. Of course AGM is still better in almost every way compared to flooded.
I don't know what you do when wintering your batteries, but mine held its charge since I bought the bike 5 years ago and is officially dead this spring. Of course last season it was a little weak but only 2-3 year is very underestimated...
Depends on the bike, battery, and care. In a warm garage, 4-5 years is possible. However, if you have ever owned a BMW motorcycle, 2 years is the best you get from a battery. However, my lithium batteries have been going on 8 years now.
@@highervoltage5430 Do these bikes tend to have electrical leak of some sort ? Or is the battery undersized and the high demanding cranking is what kills it ?
As you can see in the video, his battery had no little or no electrolyte when he tried emptying it on the grass. He forgot to add water to the cells and that is probably why the battery was dead. Unless it was an AGM type, in which case the electrolyte was trapped in a glass mat between the plates.
Awesome! Just one thing, as a definitely-not-electrician, is there a good place to get the required battery details to match our bike specifications? I’m pretty sure that my 373cc single cylinder wouldn’t need the same Voltage/Amperage
Just use a 12v rotary tool battery does same job and cheaper you can also put it inside the original battery like he did in the video. You'll also have a charger that comes with it that way with a bit of modification
lighter - high power - low stamina - fast recharge - fragile but potentially longer life if looked after - NOT GOOD if bike has a parasitic current draw
Straightforward and nicely explained... well-done, thx! Would be curious re: the total cost, especially compared to say, a similar capacity conventional LI battery?
You can buy lithium batts from ebay or chinese store.. And they sell super cheap for the battery cells... An average good Lead acid batts are sold around USD 100 (E.g: YTX10) And a branded Lithium batts (E.g: Skyrich) USD220. DIY Lithium should cost ard USD 80 max...
What happens on a motorcycle when the BMS cuts the charge from the stator? With a conventional alternator that would destroy the alternator. Instead you'd do it by cutting the field wire. How does this compare the charging system on a bike?
Great Video, and Great project! Question, shouldn't each cell be managed? Not sure how that would be done on parallel packs. Ok it seems that you are using 3X8 cell pack, is that right? How long has it been since you built this pack, and is it still working and have you had to charge it? Wont the BMS also protect the battery pack from discharging below a point that will damage the cells? Thanks
Not really. I made a motorcycle battery where the cells bounced around the box and it has been ok. It is best to put a little styrofoam or other material in the battery to give it some dampening, but unless the battery gets slammed down hard, it doesn't really matter.
Are there any issues with floating the charge for it? And if resistors are dissipating excess charging current in BMS module how it is exhanged out of the battery box?
The reason people use lead acid is because they work no matter the temperature outside. Lithium batteries cannot be charged below 0 celsius, otherwise you will destroy them. So you better use another battery if you want to start your bike during winter.
think about what you just said....motorcycle, start it below 0C....99% of motorcycle riders park their bikes during winter...so charging the battery below 0C is not really an issue if its in storage.
@@slick1908 worst thing you can do actually. Running an engine without getting the oil hot enough to burn off the moisture introduces more acidity to the oil, more condensation build up in the engine and exhaust and does nothing to prolong the life. Best thing to do is leave it alone, pull the battery and don’t touch it till spring.
@@Rebel635csi You might be right on this one I'm not going to argue. What about overheating? Lithium requires special chargers, the same as in phones that will adjust the amperage according to battery voltage otherwise heat and fireworks may occur, an alternator is not designed for that. Adding that to the fact the battery sits next to an internal combustion engine, things are not looking well
@@slick1908 commercial lifepo4 batteries are available. Lifepo4 charging curve is so similar to lead acid other than not requiring a float charge that it’s not an issue. Engine bay heat affects the lead acid batteries just as much as lifepo4. The only reason they aren’t used widespread is cost. They also are great for high current inrush for their weight and size but their amp hours are still low. So accidentally leaving lights on will drain them much faster.
"Dont worry about overheating the cell" LOL damn. Soldering like that basically ruins your cells.They might work for a while but yeah, that chemistry degrades fast under high temp.
That sentance is true if you get yourself a quickly heating soldering iron or do it at high temps. Using welding is preffered mostly because it is safer to do so, faster, cheaper and no blm kids will try and use cheap 10-20w soldering irons to do so. I'd say you need at least a 60w soldering iron to solder and a small fan cooling the cell it self to do it safely, but then again i made only 1 pack like that. The other i tried making was welded with super caps, a solenoid and with observation. 1st one works nicely, bit less of a charge than it should, but i take it the charging controller shuts off any current at ~16v and not higher. The second one is still to be used, it's ment for a lifepo4 supercap lead acid replacement battery. Was thinking of making every connection with brass nuts and bolts but after 3 montha of waiting for the nuts and bolts i'm gonna have to rethink that bit.
Hi Alex please questions/help 1-Why you choose LIFE instead of LI-Ion? because the voltage 3.2 vs 3.7? Are the main leads connected to the balancer ? it gives you enough amps? instead of direct to the battery? and use balancer for charge only? Thanks.
This is one of the biggest disregards to safety I have seen. The video is good quality and your explaining some aspects really well. In my opinion, batteries are extremely dangerous devices to start playing around with, especially for high current applications such as vehicle batteries. Starter motors draws hundreds of amps during vehicle startup and very simple mistakes can be costly. LiFePo4 are less susceptible to catch fire when used outside normal operating conditions than standard li-ion batteries. But you are basically telling people to start making their own batteries in the blind. Some problems I see, other than you not using safety equipment are: * You should be using a way bigger tip when soldering the batteries. This will provide a better heat transfer such that exposure time to the heat is minimized. And yes, overheating the batteries is important and you should pay attention. At the very least you could damage the cell. * You do not talk about dimensioning at all! You're just explaining what type of battery you buy and that people shouldn't trust the numbers in eBay ads. NEVER buy batteries from and unknown source. You have no idea what they are actually made of. Just by them from reputable brands and pay the 10-20% extra they cost. * Your BMS is BS. No talk about the dimensioning here either. You can't just go out and buy any old BMS for this type of problem. It needs to be able to handle the charging current and voltage. Which you don't talk about either. Vehicle do not output 12 V from the regulator/alternator combination but rather closer to 14.4V. Does your BMS has overvoltage protection? When does it cut off the charging? Over current protection? How does it balance the cells? It looks horribly small for a battery pack charged by a vehicle. * Lithium batteries are usually charges using a constant current and constant voltage. Your BMS will only provide somewhat constant voltage, depending on the output of the regulator of the vehicle. * I would also personally prefer to have fuses between the cells of the battery such that shorts in one cell does not affect the others. There might be other issues that I have missed. Please, do not build a battery pack on the basis of this video.
Im working to build one for my bike, but controlling rectifier volt is delaying me.. Im waiting for a circuit from aliexpress to fit it. I dont know how u manage rectifier volt??
Checkout some of Big Clives videos! Some really good information about why you shouldn't overcharge lithium batteries! You don't want to set your balls on fire!!!
LIFEPO4 fully charged battery voltage is 3.3V per cell vs 4.2v for li-ion. So that most 12v charging systems will fully charge a LIFEPO4 whereas Li-ion in 3S configuration will be overcharged and 4S configuration will be undercharged.
The BMS is managing the charge and discharge of the cells. So it is as safe as the BMS you use and LiFe batteries are not flammable like lipo or li-ion either so really it's about as safe as the lead acid just more reliable.
Sorry so what was the reason against using Li-ion 18650's ? Are they not able to handle the discharge rate or something? I have access to hundreds of recycled 18650 Li-ion cells and have just discovered that my bike battery is flat as we are heading in to summer!
@@boogerking7411 I have a friend on the inside at a scooter rental company so I can nab the batteries that are destined for e-recycling. Try contact your local e-recyclers to find out who takes care of your local scooter rental companies and see if you can take some off their hands, just make sure you don't get any that have had water damage or you may run in to trouble
I think old scooter batteries won't have much cycle life left in them since they get fully discharge, hence less cycle life. EV batteries would have better chance since they have big capacity banks. Anyway, I wish we have e-recyclers in asia. Haha
Voltages don't match. So the alternator will undercharge 4 lion cells or overcharge 3. LFP is close enough that things will basically work with the existing alternator (although it's still not quite right, the BMS will hopefully deal with the slightly high charge voltage).
@@jobbingactor Don't motorbikes have alternators to charge their batteries? Whatever they use is designed for lead-acid voltages and charging requirements. Lithium (either LFP (3.3V nominal) or 'standard' LCO/LCA/NCA/ (3.6V nominal)) doesn't strictly need CC and CV charging - it needs current-limited and voltage-limited charging. But yes this doesn't match optimal charging for lead acid. In practice things seem to be near enough, that combined with some battery-management in the battery it's close enough for LFP to just be a swap-in item. You are right that Lithium chemistries (all of them) are damaged by discharge below a certain voltage, so it's a really good idea to put in a low-voltage disconnect. It's not instantaneous (you need to leave the batts below 2V for some time (hours, damage rate depending on temp) to do real harm), but if someone keeps cranking on an LFP pack with any cells under 2V it will be bad for it.
Great video! One thing that would really help the project and save everyone who builds such battery time is checking each battery BEFORE you solder them into one pack.
Very true.
@@highervoltage5430 Thanks for your video.. still relevant even after all these years. Question... I am going to build a battery using 8x 26650 cells for my bike... I was thinking of using an active BMS to protect the cells from over and undercharge as well as balancing. I'm trying to choose the right max current capacity for the BMS, but I don't know how much current a starter motor usually draws when starting a cold engine. Is it more than 100A or less? Have you used any active BMS's before that you could recommend? Many thanks! Dean
Normaly you disconnect the negative lead first, not the red one. This is because you can accidentaly touch the body of the car/bike with the loose lead and short the electronics with charge left inside the capacitors. It's like mixing drinks - you can mix vodka with vodka all the time, but don't mix it with whiskey, rum or anything else (though a pint of beer after a bottle of vodka never did me any harm).
Respect for wearing your riding gear, even just to demo a diy battery video.
It looks like you are drawing power directly from the battery (not via BMS)and charging battery directly as well (not via BMS). The BMS you are using will only balance the cells, but not protect against overcharging / over dis-charging. If this is true, you'll destroy this battery pretty fast. Potentially you are dealing with a Li-Ion battery that can catch on fire right under your seat and next to your fuel tank. Good luck.
He is using LiFePO4 batteries that are more forgiving and do not generally combust upon failure like Lithium Ion.
If that is the case what is the solution ?
@@allsafe1 get a different BMS?
@@Artemis_xe yes , get a bms with high amps
Very good video. I would consider hooking up one single set of batteries (4x18650 in series) in parallel with a super capacitor pack - 6x500F 2.7V with balance board to provide 16v(max) 83F capacitor pack. The capacitor provides a large amount of cranking amps. I would use on Yamaha XT250 enduro.
Hi, Did you yet made this battery pack?
I am very interested in this. Where can I find more info about such battery?
These LiFEPO4 70 amp batteries are 7.50 each x 24 = $180 just for the batteries. You can buy a complete LiFEPO motorcycle battery from Shorai for $150.
It's like me, that gets cells for free. ALso, with this you can hide entire battery inside a 1" frametube.
You can knacker an 18650 by applying heat to the middle of the negative end. Try and keep it the outside and use a spot welder to keep the heat to a minimum.
You can make a good spot welder with a12v car battery, a momentary switch and a solenoid.
I saw a you tuber posted a video for this idea. Thank for remind me and I searching for it
Yeah but he's gotta build the battery first before he can use one as a spot welder. 😆
@@josh_ari - A "car" battery for a spot welder. Not an 18650 battery.🤐
@@herenow2895 you can't use a motorcycle battery?
@@josh_ari - Any 12v lead acid battery. The bigger it is, the more spot welds you can do.
I'll probably never do it, but that was really interesting.
I didn't think you were supposed to apply that much heat to an 18650 cell.
as for those ring terminals. crimping is actually better for vehicles because vibration can cause solder to crack over time
Devin May 100% agree....
If my memory is good, it's been known for a long time (since around WWII) that crimp connectors, properly done, are superior. For speed (that helped us win the war, because the Germans were soldering their field phones, which takes longer) and resistance to flexing and vibration (because the spot where solder stop wicking up the wire is a transition from stranded wire to effectively solid wire, the strands break, one by one, at that point, from flexing).
I'm sure I remember reading that crimp type connectors help win the war. Wikipedia says 1953, but, that could be when they went commercial, I guess.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimp_(electrical)
NASA found the same on spacecraft. Solder joints crack. Crimped ones don't, so they solder AND crimped all the connections!
What a beautiful bike you have there! Good project, I will do it.
A battery balancer is not a complete BMS. The balancer has no way of cutting off the battery from the outside world like a complete BMS is able to. Because of that it does not keep the battery from over charging or over discharging and it does not protect against excessive charging current or excessive discharging current.
@@electricalfive2248 And the solenoid will prottect he LiFePo cells against over/under discharge? No it won't... And the starter isn't the only thing drawing power.
And that balancer he used has minimal balancing current. Better to use one of the cheap ACTIVE balancers.
@@diavolescaCZ you're right, sorry
@@electricalfive2248 no problem. You didn't call me stupid. I agree that a BMS for car starting currents would be very expensive. For a motorcycle it might not be a big problem
Active balancers often take more quiescent current vs passive. This can make a difference when storing rhe battery over winter.
"Don't worry about overheating it". wow.. really. have you heard of a spot welder.
Bruhh, why wouldn't he just use copper instead of nickel if he's gonna solder everything. So much about this is wrong lol
@@sunny_froyo nickel plates is better on lithium based batteries as they dont oxidise the way copper does.. This is one benefit of not having short circuits in the long run..
Electrical wise, i do not recommend to have a solder on battery more than 3 secs as it will damage and discharge the battery..
@@sunny_froyo maybe he doesn't have the spot welder, just want to use once it's not worth it to buy one for, just used what he already had 👍
My 1972 Triumph has a kick starter AND a battery... originally a LEAD ACID battery... oh, I forgot to mention I'm wrapping up my Master's in engineering. I have an unused, never filled, still sealed lead acid battery on the shelf waiting for a project.
I made one for my 1500 cc bike. it is 7 yrs now and still strong. I.m thinking of capacitors next. they have gotten so much stronger.
As much as you know about this stuff.... You really should be wearing PPE gear. Like when you hose out the battery box without eye protection.
Next time just dump baking soda to neutralize the acid, then rinse with low pressure.
Such a high quality video! Your channel is underrated
Full of bullshit you mean, since when does a bike battery only last a few years.....
Just found this video. Looking to make a battery for my rzr sxs but I have that exact same motorcycle. Mine is painted Black diamond. Just thought I would share. Nice video.
Ironically I was looking at doing this on my bike last week! Great tutorial Alex!
Yes.... thinking just to add starting power to my Hayabusa, not completely replacing it. When my motor hot up, it hesitate for starting. I'm thinking to add some amps to fixing this inconvenience. How do I design it extra cells?
@@hectormelendez968 replacing led acid battery is good decision
_"Ironically"_
maybe use such words only when you know their meaning...?
I have an 3s 5p 16ah battery pack in my 50ccm scooter can also start an car :D bms with cutoff for safety and a modified charge limiter to 12.3v for not stressing the cells works perfect since last year
Did you try it on a motorcycle and it worked ??How is the delivery
@@abdodarwish3334 it still work well
@@quartzii_uwu Possible pictures of the installation method, the board used, and whether the startup works on it directly. Thank you for your interest in responding
@@abdodarwish3334 hey , it would be a mess to reach the charge controller you can also use normal 12.6v charge controller with a little bit of wiring theyill work also
@@quartzii_uwu If a drawing or illustration is available for practical implementation
Thanks, I plan to build one. I know this video is few years old so the links may be no longer good but if you just give them out as reference then help a lot of us.
normaly u connect Plus first, then Ground, because of the possibility to make short with the Wrench to GND.
Rather don't solder on them, few of mine vented during soldering. Ordered a spotwelder on AliExpress two weeks ago because of this. But the LifePO4 cells were a few years old already and holding between 1000-1200mah out of 1400.
TX90 connectors are good for connect battery . It is very easy take along or use two separed battery. No any good reason use lead acid battery parts to make new.
This is a great list of what NOT to do when building a pack out of 18650s. Geez.
Lithium Phosphate is much different than Lithium Ion. Much safer, and not flammable.
Can you list what he did wrong?
@@mastermaximoo969 soldering is first thing.
@@mastermaximoo969 Solder, wrong tape, cheap bms weak connections and just about everything else. Never build a batt like this.
Horror movie. At least neutralize the old batter acid with some baking soda. Imagine someone trying to copy this???
My new MC came with i Li battery., and it died after one year. The battery in my Honda SH-50 1986 is still working.. It started the moped in a pile
of snow at -20C, so, I will by a lead acid battery for the MC
Sweet upgrade Alex. Just shared this to a bike forum I lurk on.
Something I feel needs to be mentioned. This battery is MUCH LIGHTER than Lead or AGM. A similar name brand lithium motorcycle battery is $159-$225 (antigravity).
And the anti gravity is about 1/3 of the ah too. A 6.5ah antigravity replaces a 12-14ah lead acid. Lithium batterys love to hide AH and just boasts about CCA
Yeah... I'll just go buy a new battery.
Hello, my question is about the charge that the batteries are taken from the motorbike alternator, does go through the BMS or direct to the poles of the battery? and is the bms only for balancing the pack? how much ampers is the pack receiving from the alternator, because the voltage logicaly must be from 13,8 - 14,4 if i am right!!! Thank you!
Washing lead sulphate out the garden? Great idea.
A LiFePO4 cell is more suitable (cheaper, and safer) to use for a car or motorcycle battery. The main reason is that the nominal voltage of this cell chemistry is 3.2V (12.8 V for 4 in series). A lead-acid battery has a nominal voltage of 13.6V. The motorcycle's charging voltage (usually 14.4V) is just perfect for LIFePO4 cells. The battery will not be over-charged. Also, the BMS you use should be rated for at least 100A output as he starter motor will draw around 100A. The one you used here looks too small.
Lead acid nominal is 12 exactly iirc. With lifepo, the situation is that the nominal voltage is basically quite a discharged state. Whether that's good or bad, hard to tell but probably fine, as long as the alternator isn't faulty and provides sufficient voltage to actually charge it properly.
Hello, since your video is 2 years old, I guess it is a good time length test. Does it still work, and do you still recommand it ?
Exactly.
If you disconnect ground first and connect ground last, then a wrench/screwdriver accident between positive and chassis isn't so spectacular. You can guess how I've learned this...
Yes. 'Last on, first off' is good practice.
Do NOT try this, if you don't know the risks and you don't know how to use the tools. If you are not sure..............just go to a battery store :) . safety first.
Ps: I'm electronic engineer , not a battery seller . And this video is perfect ! Well done Alex.
So we'll explained just wouldve been gr8 if u could zoom in a little bit when u were soldering the bms.
I'm tempted to try this in all of Yamaha wisdom they used a 14b mini-bike battery to crank over my 1900cc V-twin the highest peak output or CCA is 210 with the yuasa AGM battery at $140 if they would of allowed 1/2" more room for the battery it would of made this so much easier
Be aware that lithium batteries do NOT like cold weather. The cold cranking amps drop to less than half if it is below 70 degrees outside.
@@highervoltage5430 unfortunately the lipo battery at half is still more then the full AGM battery it has room for
Connecting the plus terminal first is the right way ! Minus dosent go first!
Mey friend good for you. but my bike battery ytx12bs 12v 12ah.. buuut Cca: 180AH.. (Cold cranking amps - CCA).. Cold cranking amps (CCA) - CCA is critical to the ability to start the vehicle when the engine is cold. The number of amps a battery at 0 degrees Fahrenheit can deliver for 30 seconds until the battery voltage drops to an unusable level. And this one BMS blow up...
AND in this case the BMs also blow fuses.. Even if I use a high amperage bms...What do you think I should do in this situation?
After 10 years of living in Germany I'm absolutely horrified at the idea of just dumping battery acid on your lawn. No no no noooo.
Great video. I'd like to make this. As I try to buy 18650s I'm finding they come in different amperages (2500mAh, 3500mAh, etc.). Just wondering what was the amperages of the 18650s used in this video? Same goes for the BMS. I'm finding em for sale everywhere from 4s-2500mA to 4s-3500mA.
Sounds good. So here's the but. What about your stater, and charging in cold weather. Can these charge frozen.
So no bike this day :-)
Looking to buid small one for my 2t ktm, not for weight but power. I run added 40w led light for night riding.
Thanks for video.
Nice. Old but good video. I wondering about the solder iron? How many watts it is? Where you get it?
Did you do anything to the alternator on the bike to protect the battery? Or does the bms do all the work?
You don't have to do anything. a 4 cell LiFe battery is capable of 14.8 volts without damage. Most alternators have a voltage cut off between 13.2 and 13.6 volts.
Thanks, I was looking for this instruction specifically, as I only found instructions for cars or e-bikes. I'll definitely try this once my maintenance free battery goes to sh*t.
However, I'll also try to apply some lessons from other channels like using a spot welder.
I have a 6v motorcycle without a starter.. What configuration of 18650's or other cells do you recommend?
I also have an old 6V, no starter machine. Headlight is 35W, tail and number light 5W and I want to remember the ignition is like 25 W. The system needs to handle a bit above 10 A. I guess two 18650 cells In series would be enough? Maybe parallel that for a lite more capacity.
Hi, Do you have any update on this battery pack?
Don’t solder cells. Use a spot welder. Heat damages the cells
Life batteries are more tolerant but, even li-ion getting damaged by soldering is mostly a myth unless you hold the iron on there for a a good minute.
why a 4s? It seems it wont fully charge being 16.8 full and 12v dead. I suppose if it works its worth a try. my alternator only goes to about 14.5v max.
LiFePO4 I get it now. 14v max and 11 dead for a 4s.
Bone dry standard battery? Maybe if you had added water when necessary and kept it charged, you wouldn't have to spend valuable riding time making one.
Why not use 32659 3.2volt 6000ma battery BMS around 49 amp
I have a lithium battery. This week I went to my bike and it started no problem, rode to a friend ten miles away came out and all electrics were dead as a dodo. Nothing, no lights on the display. I pressed the button on top of the battery - nothing. I tried to bump start it - no go. I thought this cannot be the battery, so it must be a circuit problem. I had to go back with a trailer.
When I got home I put jump leads on the battery and it started. When in the garage I turned the key and the battery produce nothing, I pressed the button on the battery and behold it worked this time!
I will never buy another lithium battery. If I had had an acid/lead battery it would not have started and then failed after the ride and caused me all this trouble and time wasted. Maybe they should supply jump leads when you buy the batteries, as you will need them!
I can get some decent 32650 batteries. You think I can get away using just 12 of these in place of 24 18650 batteries?
A flooded lead acid battery for a CB 750 is what $50 minimum? Most 18650s LiFe batteries i've seen go for about $45 per 24. When you factor in the other components, how much did you end up saving? Not to mention time, energy, skill, safety, tools, etc. Why not just buy an AGM? Or find a way to rig a regular rc car battery pack?
From all the research I haven't done yet I believe a ton of RC car batteries aren't 12 volt. They'll obviously have one or two. So if you find out why not comment below.
shae grover I'm sorry, I should have clarified. I was referring to the11.1v 3 cell Lipo battery backs with a nominal charge voltage of around 12.6v commonly used in rc aircraft and cars. However, LiFe are probably still ideal for long term storage use without proper maintenance like an inexpensive trickle charger you would use on a lead acid. Li-Fe (I forget how many cells these typically have) packs are around 6.6v with a 7.2v nominal charge, as described in the video, this is a fairly useful range if you were to use them in a series configuration.
Of coarse lithium Ion like they use in the real motorcycle batteries would be even less expensive than the already cheap LiPo, but they tend to have a shorter shelf life and faster self discharge rate if i'm not mistaken.
But it does all come down to wether or not you properly maintain a battery. Trickle charging, indoor storage, and observing fluid levels if it's a flooded battery, will certainly improve the life expectancy. Of course AGM is still better in almost every way compared to flooded.
I don't know what you do when wintering your batteries, but mine held its charge since I bought the bike 5 years ago and is officially dead this spring. Of course last season it was a little weak but only 2-3 year is very underestimated...
Depends on the bike, battery, and care. In a warm garage, 4-5 years is possible. However, if you have ever owned a BMW motorcycle, 2 years is the best you get from a battery. However, my lithium batteries have been going on 8 years now.
@@highervoltage5430 Do these bikes tend to have electrical leak of some sort ? Or is the battery undersized and the high demanding cranking is what kills it ?
As you can see in the video, his battery had no little or no electrolyte when he tried emptying it on the grass. He forgot to add water to the cells and that is probably why the battery was dead. Unless it was an AGM type, in which case the electrolyte was trapped in a glass mat between the plates.
what BMS you choose ( Amperage)?
Awesome! Just one thing, as a definitely-not-electrician, is there a good place to get the required battery details to match our bike specifications? I’m pretty sure that my 373cc single cylinder wouldn’t need the same Voltage/Amperage
I'm pretty sure it would.
Just use a 12v rotary tool battery does same job and cheaper you can also put it inside the original battery like he did in the video. You'll also have a charger that comes with it that way with a bit of modification
Is charging voltage important? How will lifepo4 be different than lead I regard to the stator/rectifier system?
Thanks again!
yes - never overvolt and avoid discharging completely - check your bike charging voltage does not exceed 14.5-15v
lighter - high power - low stamina - fast recharge - fragile but potentially longer life if looked after - NOT GOOD if bike has a parasitic current draw
@@trondwell13 - Hit the nail on the head with this comment!
You built something really awesome here. I'm going to copy this, with the only difference being in battery size: I'll use 26650 instead of 18650.
I use 26650's mostly now as well. They are easier to come by and have higher capacity and discharge rates.
32650 is much better.
@@highervoltage5430 How are they easier to come by then 18650?
Straightforward and nicely explained... well-done, thx! Would be curious re: the total cost, especially compared to say, a similar capacity conventional LI battery?
You can buy lithium batts from ebay or chinese store.. And they sell super cheap for the battery cells...
An average good Lead acid batts are sold around USD 100 (E.g: YTX10)
And a branded Lithium batts (E.g: Skyrich) USD220.
DIY Lithium should cost ard USD 80 max...
So, you just wire this battery up and go? Doesn't this type of battery install require an upgrade to the regulator rectifier?
Could this be scaled up to work for a car battery?
Yes. I would go 4S/10P. The battery will likely last as long as the car.
can the battery pack placed in engine bay?
What happens on a motorcycle when the BMS cuts the charge from the stator? With a conventional alternator that would destroy the alternator. Instead you'd do it by cutting the field wire. How does this compare the charging system on a bike?
It's not since it's directly connected to the battery.
Great Video, and Great project! Question, shouldn't each cell be managed? Not sure how that would be done on parallel packs. Ok it seems that you are using 3X8 cell pack, is that right? How long has it been since you built this pack, and is it still working and have you had to charge it? Wont the BMS also protect the battery pack from discharging below a point that will damage the cells? Thanks
3x8 or 8x3? Not hard to figure out which...
How was the experience so far and what happened to the batteries??
Cool info! Is making sure the cells aren't moving around in the old case important?
Not really. I made a motorcycle battery where the cells bounced around the box and it has been ok. It is best to put a little styrofoam or other material in the battery to give it some dampening, but unless the battery gets slammed down hard, it doesn't really matter.
Goodday mate, is there any specific BMS Amphere for bike usage? Which BMS to chose
Not really. I use the BMS as a balancer, not a charge/discharge limiter. Just about any balance current will work. smaller units just take longer.
@@highervoltage5430 Are you not concerned with overcharging the battery?
Are there any issues with floating the charge for it?
And if resistors are dissipating excess charging current in BMS module how it is exhanged out of the battery box?
thanks for the video...trickle chargers...but thank you
The reason people use lead acid is because they work no matter the temperature outside. Lithium batteries cannot be charged below 0 celsius, otherwise you will destroy them. So you better use another battery if you want to start your bike during winter.
think about what you just said....motorcycle, start it below 0C....99% of motorcycle riders park their bikes during winter...so charging the battery below 0C is not really an issue if its in storage.
@@Rebel635csi parking it does not mean you don't start the engine at all at least once a month for a few minutes
@@slick1908 worst thing you can do actually. Running an engine without getting the oil hot enough to burn off the moisture introduces more acidity to the oil, more condensation build up in the engine and exhaust and does nothing to prolong the life. Best thing to do is leave it alone, pull the battery and don’t touch it till spring.
@@Rebel635csi You might be right on this one I'm not going to argue. What about overheating? Lithium requires special chargers, the same as in phones that will adjust the amperage according to battery voltage otherwise heat and fireworks may occur, an alternator is not designed for that. Adding that to the fact the battery sits next to an internal combustion engine, things are not looking well
@@slick1908 commercial lifepo4 batteries are available. Lifepo4 charging curve is so similar to lead acid other than not requiring a float charge that it’s not an issue. Engine bay heat affects the lead acid batteries just as much as lifepo4. The only reason they aren’t used widespread is cost. They also are great for high current inrush for their weight and size but their amp hours are still low. So accidentally leaving lights on will drain them much faster.
Or you could just connect a battery maintainer to your battery if you know your over wintering it.
Merci super vidéo
Tell me this battery is still working today, because my guess is that it’s not.
Hi want to know for 12v 6ah 10hr to concert lithium battery how much 18650 battery do i need. and can i know what kind of bms do i need. tq
"Dont worry about overheating the cell" LOL damn. Soldering like that basically ruins your cells.They might work for a while but yeah, that chemistry degrades fast under high temp.
“Get the battery good and hot” lol WUT?!
@@jonny95210 i see you missed a word there frieend. You can't go storing energy without pads.
That sentance is true if you get yourself a quickly heating soldering iron or do it at high temps. Using welding is preffered mostly because it is safer to do so, faster, cheaper and no blm kids will try and use cheap 10-20w soldering irons to do so. I'd say you need at least a 60w soldering iron to solder and a small fan cooling the cell it self to do it safely, but then again i made only 1 pack like that. The other i tried making was welded with super caps, a solenoid and with observation. 1st one works nicely, bit less of a charge than it should, but i take it the charging controller shuts off any current at ~16v and not higher. The second one is still to be used, it's ment for a lifepo4 supercap lead acid replacement battery. Was thinking of making every connection with brass nuts and bolts but after 3 montha of waiting for the nuts and bolts i'm gonna have to rethink that bit.
have you checked cells voltage after a year of so?
Nice looking Nighthawk 650, what year is that one?
Where e re did you get the cells
Hi Alex please questions/help 1-Why you choose LIFE instead of LI-Ion? because the voltage 3.2 vs 3.7? Are the main leads connected to the balancer ? it gives you enough amps? instead of direct to the battery? and use balancer for charge only? Thanks.
flammability
@@trondwell13 thanks, a bit late but good. I built mine few weeks ago, thanks.
This is one of the biggest disregards to safety I have seen. The video is good quality and your explaining some aspects really well. In my opinion, batteries are extremely dangerous devices to start playing around with, especially for high current applications such as vehicle batteries. Starter motors draws hundreds of amps during vehicle startup and very simple mistakes can be costly. LiFePo4 are less susceptible to catch fire when used outside normal operating conditions than standard li-ion batteries. But you are basically telling people to start making their own batteries in the blind.
Some problems I see, other than you not using safety equipment are:
* You should be using a way bigger tip when soldering the batteries. This will provide a better heat transfer such that exposure time to the heat is minimized. And yes, overheating the batteries is important and you should pay attention. At the very least you could damage the cell.
* You do not talk about dimensioning at all! You're just explaining what type of battery you buy and that people shouldn't trust the numbers in eBay ads. NEVER buy batteries from and unknown source. You have no idea what they are actually made of. Just by them from reputable brands and pay the 10-20% extra they cost.
* Your BMS is BS. No talk about the dimensioning here either. You can't just go out and buy any old BMS for this type of problem. It needs to be able to handle the charging current and voltage. Which you don't talk about either. Vehicle do not output 12 V from the regulator/alternator combination but rather closer to 14.4V. Does your BMS has overvoltage protection? When does it cut off the charging? Over current protection? How does it balance the cells? It looks horribly small for a battery pack charged by a vehicle.
* Lithium batteries are usually charges using a constant current and constant voltage. Your BMS will only provide somewhat constant voltage, depending on the output of the regulator of the vehicle.
* I would also personally prefer to have fuses between the cells of the battery such that shorts in one cell does not affect the others.
There might be other issues that I have missed. Please, do not build a battery pack on the basis of this video.
Does this battery charge off of the motorcycle's stator?
They do, which is why lifepo4 is superior to li-ion.
Im working to build one for my bike, but controlling rectifier volt is delaying me.. Im waiting for a circuit from aliexpress to fit it. I dont know how u manage rectifier volt??
You need a lithium ion friendly regulator that you can replace your stock regulator with
you can use 32650 instead.
Awesome!!! What soldering iron do you use?
don't use solder! spot weld. they are cheap like $10 round
cant find these batteries for less than 90$ now.
Aren’t you only supposed to spot weld
cool ...excellent DiY video !
Why didn't you use a spot welder on the cells? That'd cause less heat damage to the cells.
How much is a spot welder? More than a motorcycle battery?
You can DIY a spot welder using a 12v battery or power supply. In my case my spot welder is diy and cost me nothing.
Nice video.... But do some more research before copying..... Especially on h&s and insulating batteries
My Bike Battery spec is 12V 5Ah. Can i use this battery in my Bike
Yes, u can
what is output voltage of your batteries
What I sawder?
Are they still holding charge up to today
Still working, yes. These outlast lead acid batteries by several years.
Really
Checkout some of Big Clives videos! Some really good information about why you shouldn't overcharge lithium batteries! You don't want to set your balls on fire!!!
For those unfamiliar with these components, can you include a sample BOM or ebay links to the materials used here?
The problem is I used EBAY. Those parts I used all have different links every week...
Any info on weight?
Why you chose lithium iron phosphate over lithium-ion battery
LIFEPO4 fully charged battery voltage is 3.3V per cell vs 4.2v for li-ion. So that most 12v charging systems will fully charge a LIFEPO4 whereas Li-ion in 3S configuration will be overcharged and 4S configuration will be undercharged.
I don’t trust eBay they sell factory rejects, and not worth it when messing with ALKALI METALS EVER, I know this is true. NO bike won’t vape!
Is your bike using some kind of alternator to recharge the battery? If this is the case... is it safe?
The BMS is managing the charge and discharge of the cells. So it is as safe as the BMS you use and LiFe batteries are not flammable like lipo or li-ion either so really it's about as safe as the lead acid just more reliable.
Sorry so what was the reason against using Li-ion 18650's ? Are they not able to handle the discharge rate or something? I have access to hundreds of recycled 18650 Li-ion cells and have just discovered that my bike battery is flat as we are heading in to summer!
Can you share where you get these recycled cells?
@@boogerking7411 I have a friend on the inside at a scooter rental company so I can nab the batteries that are destined for e-recycling. Try contact your local e-recyclers to find out who takes care of your local scooter rental companies and see if you can take some off their hands, just make sure you don't get any that have had water damage or you may run in to trouble
I think old scooter batteries won't have much cycle life left in them since they get fully discharge, hence less cycle life. EV batteries would have better chance since they have big capacity banks. Anyway, I wish we have e-recyclers in asia. Haha
Voltages don't match. So the alternator will undercharge 4 lion cells or overcharge 3. LFP is close enough that things will basically work with the existing alternator (although it's still not quite right, the BMS will hopefully deal with the slightly high charge voltage).
@@jobbingactor Don't motorbikes have alternators to charge their batteries? Whatever they use is designed for lead-acid voltages and charging requirements. Lithium (either LFP (3.3V nominal) or 'standard' LCO/LCA/NCA/ (3.6V nominal)) doesn't strictly need CC and CV charging - it needs current-limited and voltage-limited charging. But yes this doesn't match optimal charging for lead acid. In practice things seem to be near enough, that combined with some battery-management in the battery it's close enough for LFP to just be a swap-in item.
You are right that Lithium chemistries (all of them) are damaged by discharge below a certain voltage, so it's a really good idea to put in a low-voltage disconnect. It's not instantaneous (you need to leave the batts below 2V for some time (hours, damage rate depending on temp) to do real harm), but if someone keeps cranking on an LFP pack with any cells under 2V it will be bad for it.