Best Motorcycle Battery? Lead-Acid v. AGM v. Gel v. Lithium
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
- It’s all about that chemistry, baby. We put the best motorcycle battery types through a series of practical tests and see what cranks and what tanks. [Details below]
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Cinematographer & Editor : Aneesh Shivanekar
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I'm an electronic engineer and I freak out every time I see a video like this... because most of them are full of crap. But not yours !
It's mostly technically accurate. I appreciate the research you've done, even if it's not 100% scientifically accurate, it definitely shows that you do your homework and provide meaningful videos for your subscribers. It gives you a lot of credibility. Thank you.
thanks for your confirmation, really appreciated it.
I'm pretty sure he's an engineer as well, not sure what kind though.
What were the inaccuracies?
@@Ryan....... oof it's been years, but for instance, using a light bulb instead of a constant current load to determine the battery capacity. Since each battery technology has a different discharge curve, the actual load current will vary during the test.
Same for the suicide test.
It's mostly a nit, and not a big deal for this video, but it is indeed a less accurate methodology. There are cheap battery chargers (the type used for hobby RC flying for instance) that also have a capacity test, and that can do it properly with a constant current load, and a proper cutoff voltage for each technology. They will give you the actual capacity in mAh or Ah.
being truthful doesnt pay well..........Musk got rich simply by lying to people over and over again.
I just replaced the AGM in my bike with a lithium of the same physical size. Got me 4 times the capacity, half the weight, and 2x the cranking amps. Pretty satisfied so far, especially since lithium prices have gone down since this video came out.
When I went to lithium seller said hey this other battery has twice cca of one in your cart and still fits the space in your bike. I appreciated the suggestion as that seems like the shortfall of lithium. Still half the weight of previous agm. Thanks for reminding me to take off charger for winter(honestly didn't know that cold charging was an issue)
Have fun in winter lmfao
@@Daniel-vu4qu luckily I don't store my bike outside in the snow
@@Daniel-vu4quMine did pretty well over the winter. I store it outside and in the mornings I’d get my base layers on, go out and uncover it while turning the lights on and hazards, come back out a few minutes later and she would crank 2-4 times and fire up. Only tried down to 17F though
i have not used a lithium in my bike yet but i did replace the battery in my ups with a home made 12ah 25.6v lifepo4 , i bought the cells and parts for 50$ and it has been 5 years it still holds 100% capacity not even a minute down. under a 300w load my ups would run for 45mins with it , that is similar runtime of 27ah leadacid battery that would cost 3x more .
the only issue with cheap lifepo4 cells is that they are not made for high current pulse discharge , so not all cell types can be used as starter battery. for a starter battery the only lifepo4 that i would trust is the lithiumwerks anr26650m1b cells , these are 2.6ah cells but they can deliver 120amp for 10 seconds .. a pack with 4s2p of these cells would easily start a car. a bike is nothing for them but i would put 2 or 3 in parallel to get higher amp hour and watt hour.
the leadacid 9ah is measured at a 20 hour discharge down to 10v with very low current. in reality they are more like 4-5ah . in the video the lithium shut off earlier because it has a bms that would prevent the battery from deep discharge and shut off the output if the voltage falls below 2.7v per call or 10.8v while the leadacid has no such protection so it will be discharged deep down to few volts and doing this 3 4 times will kill the battery ,
in my bike i use 7ah ups battery because they are like 9$ each and work fine for 4-5 years. much cheaper than 25$ "bike battery" , my 220cc bajaj pulsar takes around 18-20amps while cranking and the 7ah leadacid can deliver well above 40amps for few minutes.
Slight flaw in the charging test: As any electric bike/car owner will tell you, Li-ion is fast to charge from 0 to 80%. Above that they charge a lot slower.
Why would you need it above 80%?
He didnt use Li-ion, that's a lithium iron phosphate cell (LiFePO4). Less energy density than Li-ion but no danger of thermal events and 4000+ charge cycles.
That charger charges Lithium with more Volts, less amps. Crappy test.
@@ThomMurphy yes, that’s just one of the huge flaws. Lithium’s charge the opposite of acid. Start high then low. The test also failed because it’s irrelevant to show the amp hours since the others weren’t likely to actually start a bike.
Also, that’s a pathetically small lithium. The lfx 14 with 210 cca and 14 pbq or 4ah is superior.
Additionally, the lithium’s will crank harder with a low battery and start better. The problem with the methodology is that it’s not based on reality, it’s based on things that don’t or are unlikely to apply.
@@Papparratzi You're correct. Hopefully others will see the points you've made.
This was great. May I suggest an air filter comparison next? For example OEM vs K&N vs Sprint P-08 vs MWR.
PG 19 uni
Engineering Explained, but I'll tell you, they are better for performance, and still filter well enough. There are many different ones on the market but K&N have always been great, I now have a DNA filter and it is just as well made, pretty much the same.
May I suggest a general comparison of air filter types?
@@maximilianhoch2508 Again Engineering Explained done a pretty decent vid on it, Ryan saw it too.
BMC
i was a professional motorcycle mechanic for over 35 years. i lived, eat, breathed etc.etc. motorcycles my entire life. i enjoy your videos very much. they are informative, for the most part no nonsense, and at times hilarious. i especially enjoyed (and side with you) on the Snell vs. DOT (garbage) helmet video, and this is another top quality informative video as well. keep up the good work!
you eat motocycles?
how u cook it? deep fry. stir fry
steam. pressure cooker. slow cooker. on the grill?
i want to eat some
Unfortunately, if you have a large head and want a full coverage helmet, your helmet choices are quite limited and even if the helmet is rated to Snell in the smaller sizes, it is only rated to DOT in the larger sizes... I need a 8-3/4 to 8-7/8 size helmet... That usually equates to a 5X if the manufacturer even produces one that large... DOT is better than nothing though...
Fortnine notification? Why yes, I will drop what I'm doing!
just like we drop our bikes!
I used a 3D printer to build a ventilated "box", in which I was able to place TWO Lithium batteries, which were tied together. Then, I made a tray that drops inside it (over the tops of the batteries), where I can store stuff. The whole package perfectly fits in the space my stock battery occupied, while STILL weighing less.
why two batteries instead of a bigger one?
Bad Idea to tie two lithium batteries together, especially during recharging.
This is the most geeky motorcycle channel I've ever seen,and i love it.
I'd actually recommend the Gel over the FLA in a motorcycle due to the slightly safer nature in the event of a crash or dropping a bike.
I was thinking that the AGM was the best when you consider all of the points, but only because of price. It sounds like he said it was $45 while the Gel was over $100, and the AGM wasnt that much worse than the Gel if I remember correctly. Bang for the buck seems to go to AGM and it should be safe in case of a crash or drop also.
As someone with a narcoleptic bike, I went AGM. And watching this video, it was the correct choice. Don't need to worry about a spill when I take a spill and still pretty cheap. Plus I save 200g. Major difference with my DR650 (/s)
Plus... no ugly drain tube poking out the bottom of the bike.
Especially on an offroader like Ryan rides..
@vic vapor Yeah, and my pappy had the burn scars to prove it.
Oh god damn it. I JUST BOUGHT A BATTERY YESTERDAY AND THIS COMES OUT.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Bute the real question is .... how much?
Ehh I've never had issues with lead or lithium pick a flavor and go with it
Same, I got a massive gel battery
Same story here....
Its the same with cleaning out the garage or attic....
I like my Lithium's for the 2.5kg saved from high in the chassis. They also last a lot longer than acid batteries that typically only last a few years. You just have to be mindful of their small capacity and warm them up in really cold weather.
I got 10 years out of my last AGM battery. For my use case, this video has helped confirm my last choice not to go LiIon. I did initially consider the total cost of ownership, but part of that cost calculation was knowing that my battery is not going to cause my bike to catch on fire.
@@timconnors enjoy the 3,5kg brick high up inside your bike
Lithium Iron Or Lithium Ion? I Think He Was Talking About Lithium Iron. There Is A Difference.@@timconnors
As a former ZLA employee I will say it again.(this time publically lol). You guys just keep taking this to another level. Great way to educate your customers, build loyalty and create community. high five!
Never had an issue with Li-ion batteries and i've used them in winter where outside temps can drop to the 10's or less. I also didn't use Shorai which was often commented on as being the most susceptible to parasitic drains and dodgy warranty service. Feedback was from purchasers of the battery.
I went from lead acid to Lithium in my previous motorcycle (I never should have sold it with that battery in it). The best advantage was weight and size. I ended up with over half of my battery tray for space for extra tools. I felt extra tools or supplies was by far worth the extra money, especially when on the side of a low traffic road.
I accidentally started a turbo-prop engine once with a wrench across the start leads. Smoked (literally) both massive 24V batteries and the aux cart.
Caution is advised...
A man was arrested last night for drinking battery acid, he was later charged
Obviously a case of voltage fraud.
That's shocking. Watt was his name?
Gale Bolt.
Police reports that he offered some resistance during the arrest
When asked where he was taught to drink battery acid, he said from his mom as he was Ohm Schooled.
"as in puberty some drop is normal" This may be the best youtube channel out there. Thanks for everything Ryan!
Really great video. Just wanted to mention that Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) batteries have a unique chemistry compared to the average Lithium Polymer (LiPo) batteries and this typically results in failures not being explosive. I'm not sure if it changes the low temperature charging issue, but my recollection is that it improves it compared to common lithium chemistries.
Capacity test: I would have liked to see how many times each can *crank or start* an engine (take more electrons than lighting a bulb)
Because amount of energy it draws from the battery varies a lot which makes the test even more pointless than light bulb test.
Jay Jay No. Cranking an engine is a high amperage scenario and the Lithium battery could very well be able to deliver the same amount of energy as the others if the load was high enough.
In other terms, the Li-ion isn't 9 Ah at all like they advertise but one might find the Pb batteries can deliver about 3 Ah when the load is substantial...making them pretty even
@@anidiotinaracingcar4874 Yes, but it's harder to test that accurately.
most motorcycle starters draw 70-100 amps. Best way to continously pull those amperage for consistent numbers is the same way Ebikes users do to test their battery capacity. They use a power inverter like a 1000w pure sine wave inverter and hook it up to something like a heat gun in the 900+w range. A 1000w inverter will draw up to 83 amps constant.
Yes, I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps running the starter varies a lot, but having another big load, ~1kw @ 12v, and see how that changes with discharge would be really interesting. I've never forgot to turn my lights off, on the other hand, I've had batteries that didn't have the juice to crank the engine.
It would be interesting to also know the expected longevity of each type of battery. Great video.
Man, this is the best channel on RUclips about motorcycles ever!!! Thank you for the great job👍👍👍
Thanks again, Ryan
I go with lithium ion now. I have a an 09 Speed triple. These bikes are notorious for charging/ starting issues. I store my bike outside. I go through a battery a year normally, prior to using a lithium ion. Even though the lithium is more pricey it should last me much longer with prolonged periods of “storage”. So far the battery works great and my bike always starts up. Better than ever actually.
I found this pretty interesting. I have always been partial to AGM batteries, but I got a $38 conventional battery for my 1998 H-D Sportster and I'm into my second season with it and it's holding up great. It stayed in the unheated garage this winter in the New York City area with a ride on it whenever there was a descent day with no salt residue on the road. It's carbureted so sometimes it takes a bit of cranking if it's sat for awhile. I don't take the battery out (a royal pain) and there's no electricity in the garage. The battery takes the cranking no problem and starts up. On the other hand, an old simple bike like this has no parasitic drain either. I was looking into Lithium batteries for my 2003 H-D Ultra Classic and found 14AH batteries for (gasp) $300! These are the ones listed for the bike which comes stock with a 28AH conventional battery. Being Fuel Injected, it starts virtually on the first compression stroke. However there's a good amount of parasitic drain like any modern vehicle. There's the security system, memory for the audio and trip functions. Now, here's the thing about how a 14AH Lithium battery would work. The bike starts instantly, and the battery is capable of taking as high current load. This is how those car jumpers work. But if you leave your radio on and you have those colorful show-off lights, that 14AH is going to go fast. And on an older bike it's not going to take too much cranking. For $300, I don't get it. Now for the guys and gals who zip around on bikes with sliders and such, I get that you're concerned about going down and what a mess conventional battery might make. AGM takes care of that. But the thing that bothers me most about Lithium is the fire potential. I have experience with LiPo batteries and I know that a lot of people charge them in Ammo Boxes because of the fire hazard. I know the chemistry of Lithium Iron is different than Lithium Ion or Lithium Polymer, but it has very similar fire potential. By the way, early Lithium batteries had a 1C rating which means that you don't want to pump more than the rated AH into it per hour. But a lot of advances have been made in that regard and I've seen 10C charge rating on some batteries. That means you can charge at 140 Amps (at 12v) into these. That little battery tender charger is not going to cut it. Also, why do you need a special charger for Lithium? I ask this because the vehicle it's in is not designed for it. I thought there is special circuitry buried in the case that manages the peculiarities of Lithium charging.
TLDR
Cool story bro
@@Faetter-Blobs-Filmbiks Thanks. By the way, I just came back from a ride on my Sportster. The bike started right up after sitting for weeks. And it has the same battery I wrote about 2 years ago. I have electric in the garage now so it’s been on a tender and I’m sure that helps. Have a great riding season!
1:59: "why would anyone do that?"
Two words ryan, *cafe racers*
first thing i thought!
Nick B the scrambler I’m building will need it to be mounted upside down! Silly Ryan forgot about us
@@cyriously_nick2191 Well, as a former Cafe Racer builder (XLCR 1000 and '75 CB 750) I don't blame Ryan for forgetting Caf' builds...taking a perfectly functional bike and making it less fuctional is an exercise in futility. I love the look of a Caf' but try doing 1500km in a weekend and you'll be ready to trade it for a beat-to-shit UJM :-)
@@rockarola55 it's not less functional, just a different function. You compromise comfort for agility and speed.
Jake Edgell you don’t really build cafe racer for speed do you ? I would say it’s more about style .
This is spot on from a principal standpoint and great info. Having been in the battery industry 20 years I’d just impress upon you that there are good options (better than what was tested) in all categories but gel. There’s solid flooded, a little better lithium, and light years better agm out there. Such a great vid.
ryan "batteryboi" f9 uploaded
alriiiiight
The production value and the dedication put into these videos are the reason I watch these even though I don’t own a bike. Good job, keep it up :)
Not the first time I find a comment like this in this guy's videos. It's really funny how people who don't own motorcycles watch him for his, lest's say "cinematic quality" xD
@@humbertorequenadelarosa726 okay, instead of "cinematic quality", call it "i find it really entertaining"
One note about lithium batteries: The "emptier" they are, the faster they charge. As a Li battery charges it starts charging slower near the top of it's capacity. The slowdown is most noticeable after 80%. (If I am not mistaken)
Just last night I was looking into batteries and now I see this. God bless you F9
Usually, i find your videos very well researched but here i have some point of criticism:
- cranking happens at a rate of 50A and more. at these high currents, there is a significant difference between lithium and lead batteries
- lithium batteries have around 10 times more charge/discharge cycles.
- considering that you do not need a charge for your lithium batteries, you can save that money buying one instead of a charger and a lead batterie
the right conclusion IMHO would be: for offroad and cold climate riding lithium has disadvantages. if you are living in Europe or middle America there are some notable advantages to lithium. lithium batteries might last much longer before needing replacement in these milder climates. last but not least in race applications weight reduction is very important. reducing the weight of your bike by 2-3kg is a no-brainer for around 50-100$ more.
Agreed. And I'd be interested to see a test comparison between different brands of Li batteries because of how maintenance free they are and performance they put out. If I'm paying as much as I am for an Li battery to not have to add acid/water/etc for other batteries, I'm fine with that so long as it's starting up every time with normal use. And even when it gets garaged for weeks/months, it's nice to know that I didn't need a tender on it and waste power when it stores it just fine.
Well, "Europe" is a broad term. I live in a pretty cold climate in the winter, with temps dropping to -20 Celsius which is around zero of the freedom units. My AGM is a bit moody when it's that cold, I wonder how a lithium battery would feel?
@@folxam Not had a problem with my Lithium and storage. Mind you, it only gets to around -6ish around here. Cranks the bike and starts it no problem when it finally gets up to 2c, my minimum riding temp
My lead acid and my lithium both have 180 cca, if you store your battery over winter and want to keep an alarm on on your bike for instance, you will need a charger. And a proper lithium one if you want the cores balanced correctly to prolong life, with Shorai they have an extra plug on their chargers/batteries, that means Shorai chargers only to balance the cores.
I got a Shido, with these types you need a charger like the TecMate OptiMate Lithium 0.8A Battery Optimiser. They cost more than the battery itself, my battery cost around £45 for my ER6f (Ninja 650r).
It's good to charge them with the correct charger occasionally to balance the cores as the bikes charging system will not, just as a normal trickle charger will not.
@@Jin-Ro storage?! Nah, I ride all year round, rain sleet or snow.
The fact you said "posthumously" with the trumpets... was amazing. I see someone else has watched too many war docs 😁
4 years back I replaced my 2009 R1200GSA battery for a Antygravity ATX 12-24 (what they claim 720CCA), the largest they had I could fit in the space! (Replacing also the legacy relays that were draining) Love it and even boosted a freinds F250 diesel on a cold spring evening!
You're like the motorcycling version of Bill Nye. I love it!
Except Ryan tells truth and hasn't sold his soul to pimp the lies to questionless idiots
Clinton Atkins....What did FortNine ever do to you that you'd insult him like that?
@@jamesmcgrath1952 You misunderstand friend. Ryan is the man. Hands down the best in the biz. It is the bowtied buffoon who draws my ire. It was in response to the Ryan is the bill lie of motorcycling comment. A bowtie and a lab coat is a prop that paid shill pos wears well. Kiss the ring Billy-boy your times up.
@@dickflinghammer7643 I think ME was also responding to Clinton ;
@@dickflinghammer7643 Sorry buddy, you misunderstand. My comment was meant for Mr. Atkins. I've clarified my comment.
Greetings from Tasmania, Australia where the outro video came from (HEC=Hydro Electric Commission/Corporation).
SLA/Gel seems most popular here.
I like the lithium battery for smaller and lighter bikes, like my MX race bike. For a big cruiser, which I also have, I use gel. Thanks for the video!
The gel is worth the extra coin . I got a dynavolt gel battery it's blue and higher ah but the same size. Very happy so far. Feels like a solid block of plastic to handle its solid.
Hi, maybe I can explain the slow charge for Lithium bateries. Was many years ago an electronic designer and was tasked with designing a charger for the batteries used in those fancy hospital beds. Short story is that lead batteries are charged with a constant current system, while Ni-Cd for example (probably Lithium too) used a constant voltage approach. A constant voltage approach means that there is gradually less current suplied when the target charge level is reached. With constant current it is giving it all the beans untill it tops off, which is faster but only the tough lead acid batteries could take reliably.
I didn't get any of the prototypes sent back so they must have worked ok.
In a car or motorcycle the battery ends up being charged at constant voltage anyway doesn't it? The alternator/regulator maintains a pretty constant voltage and it will just throw as many amps at the battery as it can take, which will be a lot right after cranking but it will only take a few seconds to drop off as it shouldn't take more than some 30 seconds to charge it back up to full capacity from one crank.
@@BigUriel Depends on each vehicle and it's designed system but the alternator is going to be the limit on how many amps are fed into the regulator and the battery. On ex VFR750 it used a basic zener shunt from a three fase ac alternator, and the rating for the zeners where about 2v over the nominal battery voltage... that meant the the battery was given no current limit while under its nominal voltage. The regulator design is quite crappy and didn't maintain a very stable voltage, but for an old school carbed engine it was good enough. And it was ok for lead acid that could take that beating. I don't know how a lithium battery would fair in that system. Modern bikes are another story, but in the end are designed for a given battery type and charging scheme.
@@hawgietonight Yes older older bikes had some crappy electronics, I know Hondas used a very simple regulator circuit that actually didn't provide constant voltage at all but instead only put out like 12V at idle which climbed to around 15V at around 4-5000rpm then levelled out. Lithium batteries would not like this at all (even for lead acid ones it's a terrible charging method that guarantees your battery will be overcharged and have a shortened lifespan during normal road riding, but will not be properly charged and will go flat if you spend too much time in traffic with your lights on).
But cars and modern bikes all put out a pretty constant 14-14.5V in all conditions, in which case except for cars with a battery controller (which needs to be programmed for the characteristics of the battery fitted) the charging circuit will just pump out as much current as it can deliver as soon as the engine fires up. Modern cars typically have alternators around 2KW so for a few seconds after starting the engine the battery is being charged with well over 100 amps, which decrease gradually as the battery voltage increases. I think modern bikes are around a quarter of that.
I have always wondered about these "special" chargers for different batteries. The thing is, you put the batteries in a vehicle that charges them all the same way regardless of what type they are.
Right??? My klr650 charges lead and lithium the same way.
The science was beyond my limited brain capacity but I enjoyed it anyway. I cant compute how FortNine made this entertaining. I am a smarter two wheeled enthusiast for watching!!!
47 years of riding, never knew so much about batteries; This was great!
I absolutely love that these videos have a Canadian component rather than just catering to the most important country in the world.
Entertaining and informative as always, thumbs up! Could you make a temperature comparison between black and white helmets?
YES, Please do this!
And a comparison on helmet venting. Best vent, IMO, is opening the visor. Tiny vent holes do squat.
About one degree either way blk vrs wht
@@balzarini51 Did you check that yourself in comparable environment and trustworthy thermometer? I know there are few videos on youtube about this, but I'm sceptical on parts of their metodology.
Rook PL that’s just what I heard from my hjc rep at work who stock our helmets, Hess been doing it for 20 years
"...because Canada..." Love it! Yet another insightful analysis. Thanks for confirming my disdain for expensive acronyms...
Geez; so many critics out here....anyway, love your chalk board work, with terrific documentation. Irrevocably motivated me to check for written details at all times. But then, I am from the era of “wet-cell” batteries, purchased dry and in prime condition, supplied with a boxed bag of acid. Carefully add the acid, let it sit overnight and top off the level the next day (after a hearty down-town breakfast special). Then install it and go for a back-roads ride, feeling the battery for excessive warmth from time to time. Ah, so relaxing; no Li-Ion this or that accompanied by Marketing / Sales BS. Love Factory repair manuals, Machinery Handbook, and raw, first-hand stories from other riders. Thanks for the show!
Perfect Balance of Humor and Knowledge. As all Videos should be.
This video charged me up but then left me drained.
At least he gave insight as to how to regen you!
Hope you are not in southern hemisphere winter, it will then take a while to tickle you up again.
I'm shocked you got away with this joke
That is fine, as long as you don't get caught self discharging.
TRUE
Gel is a lot cheaper than you listed, matching AGM in most places I've looked. I think it's the clear winner from what you showed here.
Excellent info, excellent presentation! My solution, after experiencing several issues in this area, is: AGM in the bike, carry a Lithium jump starter (I have a Noco GB40, which can be charged on the bike via USB, but there are many others to choose from), practice push-starting in various settings (easier and safer than one might suppose, don't forget to change to a higher gear and turn on the key and run switch), frequently check your stator and rectifier/regulator (make sure voltage across the battery rises after you start the bike), and always plug in a trickle charger when the bike is parked at home (I have a Battery Tender). Also carry jumper cables on long trips (thinner wires with smaller clips suffice, make your own if necessary). Be aware that most bikes won't jump or push start if the battery has gone into deep discharge, so plan, prevent, and prepare accordingly.
AGM plus a jump starter/power bank - my thoughts exactly!
Thanks for this! I learned more in about batteries in 9 mins than I have in my whole life 😆
Very scientific and informative. Thoroughly enjoyed it and learned a lot. Cheers for the videos!
sorry to be so offtopic but does anyone know a method to log back into an Instagram account?
I somehow lost my login password. I appreciate any assistance you can give me!
@Matias Edward Instablaster :)
@Abram Drake Thanks for your reply. I found the site thru google and I'm waiting for the hacking stuff atm.
Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will reply here later with my results.
@Abram Drake it did the trick and I finally got access to my account again. Im so happy:D
Thanks so much, you saved my account !
@Matias Edward Happy to help =)
What about high temp performance for your friends to the south? It's going to be 113F (45C) today.
Weight and storage were my two main points of contention. As someone who rides invariably on low power machines, it's good to cut the weight and have something that'll store for when I decide to ride.
Fortnine is a guilty pleasure. U wont share it one social media coz its dorky geeky, but u still watch it coz u are geeky at heart
I have a couple Shorai batteries. Love them!
3:05 because Canada 😂🤣😂😭😂😂 need more one liners Ryan. Awesome video
Genius. Love the taps playing in the Suicide test
Wow. First time watching one of your videos. Was looking for plain info and got so much more.
YES!! FortNine's content keeps getting better each video, keep it up guys!
revzilla uploads the last Highside/lowside video until September 2019 and I get a notification for a Fortnine video. xD Good day today.
I've been reading for 2 hours then found this .Well done I was fooked with differing opinions
The shorai battery in my klr is going on 6 years old. Most winters I leave it installed (Iowa winters) and it never misses a beat! The light weight is a huge plus too!!
informative and interesting yet again. Ryan, you have just saved me pounds again not buying a Lithium battery. Sticking to the AGM.
But that will cost you lbs ;
@@bailey9r Take a shit before you ride and it equals out.
@@Fekillix 5 pounds of it? That's not healthy.
@@exothermal.sprocket Might need more fibre in their diet.
@@wobblysauce Too compacted. Get some celery, carrot, kale, and other fibrous stuff moving it through.
Will I be responsible and watch the new fortnine video tomorrow instead of 6am?
No, I don't think I will...
This kid is one clever well educated duck and knows how to get it across to us …
My cheap ass AGM held power for two whole years while it was sitting all alone in my cold garage. When I assembled my bike back to together and started to charge the battery, it still had about 90% of its charge left 😁
I LOVE these. 1 thing to consider when testing lithium against the rest is that your machine will always be built with a battery holster the size of the bigger battery. And you can rarely use the extra space so it’s almost fare to compare a lithium of the same size as the others. In that case it will certainly beat them all at everything.
was thinking the same thing. Test a lithium battery the same dimensions of the others...
@@tylerhall6455 and pay triple or more price
would have been a more fair test :)@@tylerhall6455
You missed a pun Ryan (one charger to fit them all 🙄) great video once again to dig under the marketing blurb, best ever ?.😎👍
Threw a Shorai Lithium into my old (carbureted) Vulcan and never had a day’s problem. That said, I used to carry a jump-starter battery in case of issues and did manage to leave my key dangling on the side of the bike when I walked away (not a fan of the side-mounted key, forgot the thing multiple times as I’d use the kill switch and nothing told you anything was on from the dash).
Full discharge didn’t seem to hurt it. I ran it for four years (flawlessly) and traded the bike in later as I got tired of keeping up with the rust on the frame/exhaust and it was in need of having the carbs rebalanced (had a job with 100% travel, so I only had weekends to mess with my bikes and I wanted to ride, not wrench).
This makes me think the best answer is to wire TWO of those little lithium batteries in parallel or just one physically larger example. Should get you similar or greater capacity versus the lead acids while still saving a lot of weight.
I’ve had a gel battery on my bike for nearly 5 years. 4 winters parked up in a damp wooden shed, outside temps +5c to -10c for approx 4.5/5 months. Battery not disconnected, never once charged or trickle charged, bike has always started right away first time out the shed in spring. 24 yr old Guzzi California not known as one of the easiest starters. Cost about £65. That’s about as much science as I need. 🏴
Until this, I was seriously considering a lithium battery. Now, I think I'll stick with AGM (or maybe gel). We don't really get much cold here in the Phoenix, AZ desert, but all the other negative aspects of Li make it harder to justify the much higher price tag. Thanks, F9!
This guy is amazing, I dont even own a motorcycle but I wached every video. Keep up the good work !
I'm in the UK and have to say your vids are awsome! So keep it up. 👍👍👍
Love the video, but I gotta say that with my bike going off road every so often, I'll stick with the more shock resistant AGM.
Good video, by the way. Happy to have learned that lithium batteries have actually less capacity. A bummer, considering the high premium.
the high capacity of the old led acid batteries where only needed for the deficiencies of that type of batteries. led acid batteries with lower capacity have lower discharge current and while henceforth drop too much voltage to start your bike. lithium, on the other hand, can be only partly charged and they will have little problem putting out loads of current.
last but not least: 2-3kg weight reduction is huge for racing bikes.
also Lithium batteries have around 10 times more charge/discharge cycles. they should in theory last way longer than your standard batterie that has to be replaced every 4 or so years
I'm now regretting my purchase because I needed a battery with the most capacity so I bought the most amp hours (AH)
WTF are we doing here with "equivalents" ....some straight up bullshit. No wonder my heated grips killed my brand new battery
I think the major selling points for installing a Li battery is because they are considerably lighter and you can mount them wherever you want. Not a big concern if you want to replace a factory battery, but it can be a consideration for the custom bike crowd.
@@Stoney3K I wanted the most electrical capacity that can fit in my battery box, so I can run lights and heated gear.
I feel lied to
They are much more expensive because they are dedicsted for motorcycles. Check out lipo hardcase in rc hobby shops witu same or even better parameters for much less.
This is one of the best channels on RUclips, not just for motorcycle stuff but in general
Several flaws in this guy's tests. Ultimately, all of these formats are designed to produce the necessary amps/current to crank the application. The difference comes down really to all of the other features/benefits you may or may not value in your particular use case - things like ease of maintenance, sealed/spill-proof and non-gassing design, vibration resistance, cycle life, ability to withstand/rebound from deep discharge, self-discharge rate, recharge rate, versatile orientation options, reduced terminal corrosion and, of course, price.
Man, I love these types of videos.
Lithium works best because as you mentioned it provides more amps when cranking, this should have been tested. More power cranking the motor will start the bike quicker->less cranking time. Weight advantage is huge. Cold temps are the biggest issue with Lithium but It doesn't get cold where I live.
It got down to 17F last winter where I am and my lithium battery did well. Just would go uncover it and turn the lights on, get the rest of my gear on then she’d fire up in a few cranks. Freed up space for a flat repair kit.
@notexpatjoe Your nuts, a motor draws current based on torque. It does not draw the same current when under load compared to no-loaded. A lithium battery will provide more current because of the way it discharges compared to a lead acid. In the real world a lithium battery starts every bike I have quicker than a new lead acid battery.
@notexpatjoe
Unless you have a need I don't recommend a lithium battery. Due to the potential of a fire, another con would be bad performance in the cold. If your battery works very well you will likely not benefit from a lithium battery. Pro's would be weight and potentially higher cca. The slower the starter motor turns (underload) the more amps it will draw. I do run a Lithium in a sub 300 pound 650 SM thumper where I save pounds over the conventional battery, and it starts significantly better. I will occasionally use one to start a 2-stroke 1200 and other motors. I normally use a conventional batteries to start these. The lithium does a noticeably better job, but won't use them regularly on these motors because of the fire danger.
Need a new battery. I remembered Ryan did this video. Had to watch it a number of times to fully digest it. Incredible amount of relevant, useful information in a 12 minute video. And entertaining as usual for Ryan and the crew. They are truly talented, intelligent, thoughtful, and ground-breaking.
I wholeheartedly disagree with what seems to be his choice at the end. He is a bit cryptic. Which he likes to be. And I am sure he recognizes and respects that different people will come to different conclusions about which choice they would make. Since I am in “not Canada”, so the Li charging excitement is probably not relevant, and I want the weight savings, I think I’ll give the Li a shot.
LOL. I see my post two years later. I bought the Li for my KTM Super Duke and my Yamaha WR250R. Extremely happy with both. Left the Yami at my daughters house. Admittedly “not Canada”. Midlands area of South Carolina. There were a few extreme temperatures in the winter. Extreme being mid-20’s for a few days. Maybe a week. Pulled the bike out of storage nine months later it fired right up. No problems with the KTM either.
One thing I will mention on your discharge test. Lifepo4 cells charge to 3.6v each at full charge. But will in a couple hours drop to ~3.3v a cell. The capacity remaining is identical though. There will be 4 cells in series in that battery giving 14.4v and after a couple hours it will be 13.2v. But it hasn't lost any of its capacity after the drop. So that needs to be taken into account
I think you should've tested a fast and heavy load, like starting a motorcycle :P
LiFePo4 WON'T COMBUST IF PIERCED. That's why it's used in this application :)
Thats a boring battery
This is one area I have been playing in for quite a while ( read about 11years). And the LiFePO4n( which I prefer to call lithium FERRO phosphate to avoid aural confusion with Llithium ION , a completely different beast and not useful for motorcycles in their present electrical config) I have used the most until recently was the Shorai. I should point out that cold is NOT a factor for me because I haven't a clue what it is ( I live in Queensland, Australia). I have used them for racing and street.
First Pb batteries are ridiculously heavy and delicate. For racing there is NO comaprison , for off road...no comparison. For street use cost will sway most people , most of the time.
None of my bikes for the last 11years has retained it's Pb battery for a number of reasons.
1. I don't get to ride on road as often as I would like. The LiFe battery is just awesome.
2. Coming from cycling, I am a weight weenie of OCD proportions.
3. As I mod my motorbikes almost always , it allows me to put a battery almost anywhere.
4. On the previous note, for off road, for offroad the LiFe battery is so much smaller than any Pb battery , you can surround it which foams and protect it from vibration and impact damage. Same for racing.
What I have learned.
1. LiFePO4 chargers are NOT created equal, even specialized ones. Most are crap. Currently I am using an Optimate and it is so superior to the charger tha Shorai supplied it isn't humorous.
2. Shorai are the least best of LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries. Both actual lifespan and recommended size. I have tried 3 others and all have been superior.
3. As pointed out the "recommended size" capacity and CCA wise is rubbish. You need at least 50% greater AHr rating. In a Pb battery that would mean a physically much bigger battery and much more weight. In a LiFe battery it is almost the same size mainly because the case is mostly air. The actual battery is only a percantage of the case volume. Interestingly the case material is more dense than the battery! Or at least it was on the 9AHr I deconstructed. Since changing to the +50% rule not a single problem.
Note: There is a more than reasonable chance that Pb batteries may go the way of incandscent bulbs and simple disappear as OEM items. Yes it is happening right now. Pb batteries will then get dearer and LiFe cheaper. It is also possible that motorcycles MAY evolve to Li-ion batteries because the slightly higher voltage has advantages . But the old electrics will be slightly different ( that will be loved by the marketing scum...like pointless new tyre sizes on mountainbikes).
So as pointed out, this was not really a apples amd apples comparison . Even though it appeared to be on the surface.
So endeth the saga. Sorry to the millenials that can't read for that long.
Thanks for sharing, enjoyed this because I have an electrical engineering background. I am in Cleveland and when I had my Yamaha I just took out my Yuasa lead-acid battery for the winter and and left it inside the house on a battery tender. Ah! I came here from Lalis' channel.
Informative but somewhat misleading. The usable power of the FLA, AGM, and Gel is about 50% of the Ah rating since they are not supposed to go below about 50% DoD (Depth of Discharge). Therefore, the 9Ah rating is really about 4.5 Ah usable on those. However, lithium (the type used here), is allowed to go down to about 80% DoD so at the 3Ah "true" (apples and apples) rating, that is 2.4 Ah usable. So for example, if you had an electric scooter that normally took a pair of 12V 9Ah AGM batteries and could be ridden for about 1 hour on a full charge (down to 50% DoD), you would need 4 of the lithium batteries to make it perform similarly under those conditions. Since the lithium batteries were only about 20% of the weight, doubling them up would still be less than half of the original battery weight of FLA, AGM, or Gel. For something like an electric scooter that is used a lot by a kid, the approx 3x charge cycles (which you didn't mention in your test and is one of the main selling points of lithium), may be worth the extra price. Another advantage would be if the scooter will have to be lifted up frequently or if it is for a small kid and losing 10 pounds of battery weight would help the kid ride that scooter easier.
Also, one other thing you did NOT mention is that new batteries do not perform as well as those that have been properly cycled a few times. Some manufacturers claim about 80 to 90% of rated capacity until about 15 or so charge/discharge cycles. You should have cycled the batteries a few times each if they were really new. I am not sure if Lithium has this property but I am pretty sure the other 3 do.
Also, since the lithium battery used here is so much smaller than the other 3, it would have been interesting to either double those up, or to use a larger lithium battery (such as "18Ah" which is probably a true 6Ah for slow draining), and make that your 5th entry. For example, if someone has a large motorcycle with a lot of accessories (radio, fancy lights...) and they like to use those even when the bike is not running, they could just use the largest Lithium battery that will fit in their battery box regardless of the Ah rating. In that case, (except for cost), I think Lithium would win.
Hey here is something else interesting... I wonder what might happen if someone already has a healthy proper sized AGM battery in their motorcycle, but rigged up some 2nd battery box for a small lithium battery and then put the pair in parallel. There could be some interesting advantages and maybe some disadvantages too. That would make for a great video since I don't think I have ever seen it. The higher voltage of the lithium should help keep the AGM from going into a deep discharge state, but the AGM can help supply CCAs when the lithium is cold. Their strengths (together) might help offset their solo weaknesses.
Well stated, glad to see others of the same mind.
Thanks. I like to think I know a "little" about batteries and they sure are fun to tinker with.
You seem to have left out the most important real-life test: how long will they last before you have to replace them?
How do you test that?
@@tomdickharryjane just use them daily for about 6 months and then predict the life span, not that much harder to do.
@mike h I dont doubt that. It's a question of whether they would have enough of a longer life span to justify the extra cost.
@@chrispaparcuri5039 8 years, was the longest I've heard.
ruclips.net/video/yDgUPSTYYL8/видео.html I heard it here
@@mustbescud mine lasted 7, just died today
The seemingly slow charge of the Lithium battery may be at least partially a function of the charger. Also, as someone else has already commented, Lithium batteries charge quite fast from discharged to approx 80% and then slower to 100%. Lithium is charged by CC/CV method. To start, CC or constant current is applied until a set voltage is achieved, then switches to CV or constant voltage until full capacity of battery is achieved.
Thank You! I would have never guessed that outcome. I just bought a new AGM for my bike.
AGM are super cheap on Ebay/Amazon. I've had really good luck with them, in fact they are usually cheaper than most lead acid. $25-35 for most bikes.
you got a good deal. I think my AGM that I got last year was about $120
@@pinkpuffin187I just bought an AGM three months ago for my Road King, could not find a lead acid around here anymore in a pinch on a Saturday. It cost me $170 for the Duracell Ultra. Hope to find a Lead acid, last one lasted almost five years, the AGM wouldn't crank the bike after sitting a week. According to the MFG tag it was already 6 months on a shelf before I bought it.
Don't buy cheap chinese batteries, you are playing with fire, literally
Iv been thinking of buying one of these lithium batteries. In california they are fairly viable.
I have one in my Fireblade and am not going back to regular batteries ever again. I understand cost is an important factor for many, but the $80 or so difference between the batteries over its lifetime isn't that big of a deal to me. In return you get a shockingly light battery. Seriously, the first time I handled one, I thought it was a dummy. It's more than 4 times as light as a regular battery.
You might not care about well over 2 kg weight savings of you ride a heavy, non sporty motorcycle, but if you have the latest supersport dressed up in carbon fiber, titanium and magnesium bits it's a bit silly to not go with the way lighter battery for not that much more.
@@lemster101 Agreed. In the bicycle world weight weenies look at things in terms of grams saved per dollar. Don't have to go too far in upgrading a supersport before the weight savings of a lighter battery becomes the best upgrade for your dollar.
@@kleinbottled79 Yes. Even in R9 900gs battery is placed high and weight difference is noticeable. Try to strap 2 Coca-cola bottles to the top of your tank and see how it handles on low speed.
I got a Suzuki Boulevard C90T 1500cc
Been using 230 cold cranking amps.
I’m moving up to 260 CCAmps.
Starts an1800 cc bike..!
I cruise with an extra battery and a jump start battery, fix a flat, fire extinguisher(small cans)
Tools.. everything fits in one saddle bag.
In case the battery quits.
Plus I’ll share if I happen upon you with mechanical problems.
Got a cheap volt AC/DC meter to quick check.
I can jump a V-8
Had two wiring burns.. a battery got me home.
Now I got extra.. and no more problems.
A stronger CCA seems to be the trick.
I cruise about 600 miles a week in fair weather...
The cold is ok.. the rain , not so much🤩
I went Lithium Iron Phosphate battery a couple years ago and it is great. Never going back.
Lead acid for a 450ktm, $30USD delivered from Rocky mtn ATV, works for a season, then dies over the winter.
Li ion $130USD, I'm on year 5, I'm $$ ahead, lol
Jinks, I hope not
Great video, thanks for Sharing!
fml my gel packs cost $130 :/ last me 1 year. I should have shopped online and got a Li- bike is easy enough to start after sitting so i don't need to keep cranking a starter.
All my lead acid, gel and AGM lasts at least 4 years, but if you don't charge them during the winter, they will only last one year, but that's not really the fault of the battery... ;-)
I found the opposite when I replaced my 3 year old lead acid with a lithium battery at not much more cost. No trouble with cold starts anymore (tested down to 1c so far) and it saved about 3kg from a 174kg (wet) bike.
There are valid reasons for switching to lithium depending on your situation and usage. But I'll never understand peoples obsession with saving a couple kg. Jesus my weight can change that much from one day to the next depending when I eat or take a dump.
@@chocolate_squiggle he probably just wanted to lose the weight on the motorcycle to be able to gain some body fat by eating fast food.
what? I use an off brand lithium battery and its 3x the cost of a lead acid on amazon ($90 vs $30) It is a bit overspecced compared to what my bike needs but i wanted to be safe and give myself some cca headroom
@@chocolate_squiggle depends on the use case and the pounds add up. plus having the weight on the motorcycle vs the weight on you makes the bike handle different. if youre counter leaning then the bike turns in a lot faster if you move a few pounds from the bike to you.
I love my gel battery. I just pulled out my bike after the winter and it had been stored away for about 5 months. I forgot to charge the battery before so i wanted to charge it before attempting to start the bike for the first time. To my surprise it took 5 minutes and then the charger showed that it was full. The bike even started up right away to prove that the battery was indeed full. 5 months with close to no discharge.
I bought a 1984 MZ 250 brand new. I used it as a commuter until 1994. It was then retired to the shed. When I retired in 2016 I decided to get it running. The original FLA battery was nearly dry. I topped it up with tapwater and charged it up. I am still using that battery today.
i was planning to go to the cinema but screw that
i found a better program
Hhaha same 😆 but my gf wasn't happy
Curious how a real 9Ah lithium would do (or even a 6Ah). It would cost more and be heavier, but should take the performance crown in every category.
Not charging time, was slower with just 3Ah going in
@@wolfe1970 Or price
Slower on that one charger, but not slower for ANY and ALL chargers. This was a biased test. For large heavy motorcycles, just get an oversized discounted AGM or gel battery. For crotch rockets, get a lithium with more CCAs than the stock non lithium battery.
Bikes have alternators. That little tidbit was left out of this review.
@@Bubbles99718 - Ah yes, but motorcycles also have rectifiers; which fact YOU seemed to ignore?
Interesting stuff about batteries. I'm currently testing LiFePO4 batts in my lab at work. In another lab next door they've been doing it for 10yrs. They had their 10yr old batteries xrayed and chemically analyzed to see what their charging methods were doing to the batteries. 10 years of incorrectly charging the batteries. This means removing cold weather protection from the internal BMS. Basically the batteries stayed on and took charge and discharged regardless of temp. In our field work we have batteries at high altitude and artctic/antarctic conditions. They have similar situations in their deployments. The results showed that the batteries were damaged but that it was so miniscule that it didn't matter. They made it 10 years. So they didn't really need the xray exam or chemical analysis to point that out. But they got it done. Great video. Side not I run li Batts on my vehicles and house.
I gotta titulate my high school physics memories to really understand your videos, but Hey They're awesome!