Can Bisexuals Say They're "Gay"? | Unscripted
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- Today's episode of Unscripted (i.e. I'm lazy and don't feel like editing sometimes) is in response to a comment I received saying that bisexuals can't call themselves "gay" because it's 1. biphobia and 2. appropriating lesbians. Let's deconstruct this...
I think the only question here is if "gay" means "attracted to the same gender" or "exclusively attracted to the same gender"
This should be called "Can Bisexuals Say They're "Gay"? feat Stuart". Gotta give credit to your cohost.
Stuart wants to be the cameracat.
Thank you for this video Marina! I'm also a bisexual woman, and I have experienced similar comments. One of my best friends is gay, and he asked me a little after I came out (last summer) why bisexuals use the word gay to describe themselves.
He thought of it as appropriation of an exclusively homosexual community. I gave him a very similar argument to yours, that terms like Gay Marriage and Gay Rights, and the Gay Community are very often put upon everyone in the LGBTQ+ community without our consent. I told him that these terms seem to be a form of erasure for many within this community, and I cannot possibly appropriate a word while at the same time being forced to identify with it.
This video is so validating, thank you!
Why are we acting like its gay people, and not the str8 media who are using terms like gay community and gay rights!? Are we really out to hurt gay people because the str8s are ignorant. Stop this yall. its homophobic and it really hurts me to see other bi women being so disrespectful of gay people. If gay people want us to stop, then we need to respect their boundaries. Not respecting people's identity is abusive and we all need to treat each other better. Obvi its okay when referring to a same gendered crush but this flippant resentment at not being allowed to identify with the word gay is ridiculous and unnecessary. Let's be respectful of your friend ok?
AlmightyStan bi's aren't using it to hurt gay people?? Bi's are using it because its often what people label them anyway. I don't think its hurtful to gay people or the gay community for bi people to use the word.
Ok but intent doesn't matter. The effects do. So gay people are telling us to stop using the word ' gay' so carelessly. Gay people have said it. It doesn't matter you you personally think its not hurtful. It is hurtful because gay people have said it is hurtful. Gay people get to determine how the word 'gay' should be used. Also what "people" label us that way. Straight people. Say what you mean.
AlmightyStan ok by definition 'gay' means same gender attraction. Something bi people experience. 'gay' is a word that ia pushed onto bi people all the time so tgey have every right to use it. 'gay people say it's offensive so its offensive' ya im sure the whole gay community all agree with that statement, and the thing with that is is that gay people and bi people are all a part of the lgbt community, therefore all a part of the same marginalised group. So its kinda weird that we're cutting off certain sections of the lgbt community and saying only their opinion matters on this topic- everyone in the community is discriminated against we shouldn't be fighting over whether bi people should be able to use a word which they might feel helps describe themselves
No 'gay' means EXCLUSIVELY same gendered attraction. That is not up for debate. That is the LITERAL definition of the word gay. The end. Also are you not reading my replies? Straight people sometimes call bi people gay. Not gay people. That does not give us the right to that identity since its not our identity. Cis people shouldn't use "trans" when they're not transgender. Also their doesn't need to be a consensus for people's boundaries to be respected. The end of the discussion = if you are using a term, that was made specifically for a goup of people that doesn't include you, and many have said they are uncomfortable with you using that word, then that's the end of it. If you still continuing disrespecting gay people's boundaries KNOWING a lot find it hurtful, then you are a bad person. Treat people with respect!
I forgot to mention that the word "queer" is also similarly criticized, even when used to self-identify. Lots of LGBTQ folks have messaged me about the use of the word queer and suggested "gay" as an alternative umbrella term. It's really hard to find the perfect words to identify with because there are no perfect terms.
You don't need "perfect" terms, there are no perfect terms & there never will be. I don't understand young people nowadays with this bizarre obsession of trying to divide people up into ever smaller groups. Making up additional terms is, honestly, kinda silly & It serves no purpose. Go far enough & you will eventually get down to describing the individual.
Seriously, think about it. I am a middle aged lesbian & nobody nowadays is doing anything that wasn't going on the 80's & 90's, they are just trying to put a name to every little variation now. Why?
I am a forensic psychologist. I don't generally work in this area but I am genuinely curious as to why so many younger people have the desire to divide everyone up into ever smaller groups.
You have generally broad groups, a few sub groups & then you have individuals with infinite variations. That's really all that's needed for social purposes.Trying to put a name to every variation is like trying to count every grain of sand on a beach. It's madness & it will never end. It also depersonalizes people, it reduces them to part of this group or that group instead of being recognized as an individual with an individual identity.
I am not asking for your personal motivation, I am asking about this phenomena in general because I don't get it. I actually think it's destructive.
Anyways, any ideas? Do you see any advantage to lumping people into groups for social purposes?
i like "queer" because it encompasses people who are not straight who don't experience same gender attraction, whereas gay very much implies same gender attraction and leaves out some ace ppl.
No it doesn't. Don't use 'q***r' if you do not experience SGA. It was and continues to be a slur against people who experience SGA; if you don't have Same/Similar Gender Attraction, you should NOT use 'q***r'.
This is a perfect example of personal preference and experience in regards to labels. I identify as queer but have gotten into trouble for using it as an umbrella term in LGBT+ communities because not everyone is comfortable with the term given the history of its use. Queer has been used as a slur against many people who don't fit the heteronormative status quo. Whether or not queer is used has to do with the individuals' experience and comfort with reclaiming the former slur for themselves. I am queer and proud to be, even though my grandma has used it as a slur.
Equally 'gay' has been used as a slur. We can't let the haters define the meaning of a word. However painful the memories for example, I can hardly demand all lesbians define as something else because it was used to mock me at school. Oddly, I'm comfortable with 'gay' and 'queer' even though those were used. Certainly 'gay' was the slur of choice all through the 80s and 90s and still gets thrown around the playground from what my friends kids say. We can't let others define what we fear, hard as it is to do, reclaiming is a powerful weapon. Any Harry Potter fan knows that fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
i feel certainly the same! i'm bisexual but everyone knows me like that lesbian since i have a preference towards females, i also call my self gay a lot but i always clarify the fact that i am bi whenever someone asks me. When I talk about how much i like a girl i joke like "wow i'm so gay" and when i talk about a boy i like i joke "wow never been so straight". tbh i don't really know what is the issue about saying that "we are so gay" when we are talking about us liking the same sex idk why we should say "wow i'm so bi" when we are clearly talking about one specific gender.
marumyau I do the same thing, where I reference my attraction towards girls as "gay", and towards guys as "straight"; I think it kinda clarifies who I'm talking about, rather than going "I'm so bi", which could go either way (also "I'm so gay" rolls off the tongue a lot better lmao)
PretentiousRed lmao you're so desperate for attention that you're going to every comment just to call bisexuals liars (which is a claim that doesn't make sense either without context lol)
PretentiousRed i seen u commented on almost every single comment like wow, go outside, get a partner, do your chores, live your life bro, you'll be 100% healthier and probably more happy than wasting your time hating on people you think are liars lol
PretentiousRed ummm why does it matter to you anyway? It literally doesn't affect you at all... If I'm lying, how does it affect you?
PretentiousRed lol idk what has counting to do with my comment but ok lol i ain't gonna waste my time with you anymore than i already did, bye hope you have a nice life.
I'm bi and i say im "kinda gay" a lot of the time (currently with a cis guy and the last bf was a cis guy also). You were talking about a "gay" crush...not a bi crush... so gay make sense.
unrelated but man your hair is so nice
I totally agree! As a lesbian, I don't at all find it wrong or "appropriating" for bisexual women to say "I'm so gay" in situations like this. Attraction to women is a feeling both myself and a bisexual woman have in common, and to me, that is a gay feeling, and so if they feel that way too, it makes total sense for a bi girl to say the same thing. Using gay as an umbrella term like this also is more inclusive for nonbinary people to use to describe their sexuality casually, and for people attracted to nonbinary people to describe their attraction to nonbinary people. It's just a good umbrella term all around and I will defend it to the grave.
Okay, I have some very strong feelings on this subject. I'm bi/omni and present as male, so I have to work very hard to stop people from calling me gay. Many people refer to me as gay even after I have repeatedly come out to them as bi, especially gay men. This is often coupled with sexual advances or harassment. I usually end up cringing when I hear bi people calling themselves gay as a result. Another issue is that I think that we as bisexual people should really be making a distinct identity for ourselves and advocating for that strongly. If someone calls me gay when I've come out to them as bi, we're going to have a problem. In terms of my attractions, I usually say queer not gay. Ex "I was a big ole queer and had no idea."
On the point that bi people are appropriating gayness by using the word gay, I agree with you. That is a moot point. We're subject to oppression by both straight and gay people (monosexism, biphobia, etc). Oppressed people can not appropriate from their oppressors. That's like forcibly giving someone food and then getting mad when they eat it.
There's a part of me that believes that we should be able to use whatever words we choose to identify ourselves, but a much louder part that says we need to critically look at whether we should use or have anything to do with the word gay.
So yeah, feelings.
Wow, this is a super thoughtful and interesting comment. Gives me a lot to think about...
I'm sorry that people keep erasing your identity. There's a difference between someone labelling you as gay and you choosing to use gay as a term to describe yourself. I had a friend in high school who would call me a lesbian all the time and when I told him to stop, he said "but you're close enough to being one anyway" which really felt like he was erasing my identity, as though being bisexual isn't "enough" of an identity to be recognized. However, my girlfriend likes to say I'm "so gay" when I obsess over boobs and I like to use the term as well. In this situation, I think it is completely ok because 1) it is in the context of same-sex attraction 2) I am choosing to use it to describe myself 3) she knows that she is allowed to use it. I agree that we should be loud and proud about our bisexual identities, but I also believe that each individual should be allowed to identify and describe themselves however they please, and the people around them need to respect that.
I agree with you on the point that we should be allowed to identify how we want, but we should also critically analyze why we identify the way that we do. We need to have these kinds of discussions in our community, especially since we face so much marginalization, both from within and outside the queer community.
I'd like to talk about your first point, in using gay to refer to same-sex attraction. I think that's one of the roots of the issue. The problem is that gay means a lot of things- attractions, relationship types, etc, but fundamentally it is an identity. Gay people have gay attractions and are in gay relationships. And that's fine. However, bisexuals don't have gay attractions and gay relationships because we aren't gay. We don't have straight ones either. We have our own kinds of relationships and attractions, regardless of the gender of the people involved. We're our own thing.
We as bisexuals sometimes use the word gay to describe ourselves because of our language's conflation of identity, preferences/attractions, and relationship types. Since we don't have our own word to use, I believe an umbrella term like queer fits better.
That all being said, I totally respect how you decide to identify yourself. I'm here to discuss something I've thought a lot about and I think could be beneficial to our community. We face a lot of challenges. I think that stopping the use of the word gay and insisting that other people not use it to describe us will help solidify us as a distinct identity, empowering us in the process.
Hey Marina, really appreciated this video. Wondered if you could talk more about your experience/people's perfection of your bisexuality whilst being in a relationship with a guy? I'm bi and have a boyfriend and often don't feel bi enough and wondered your opinion/experience of this?
This really speaks to me - I'm a cis bi woman, and one of the first women I was ever intimate with told me "you know this doesn't mean you can call yourself a lesbian, right?" It was actually really painful, because I had never used that word to describe myself, and I hadn't asked anyone else to use it... So I couldn't understand why she was so defensive of it? And why she thought that I was coming after that lesbian cred instead of being proud of my bisexuality? It really made me question whether I wanted to be involved in the LG movement - I've always felt a lot more at home with the queer community.
Biphobes: Biphobia isn't real! They're just being selfish liars!
Bi people: That's... really... biphobic... of you???
Eilidh Keegan That's horrible; i hope you've met kinder people with a more nuanced understanding since then. (As you know) It's your identity, not anybody else's to decide!
To answer the title, yes they can.
This was an important video that I'm glad you made.
Yeah i would say im pan, but mostly i refer to myself as 'quite gay' or 'very gay' because i feel like im more gay than straight. I've always pictured sexuality as a scale (if u label urself bi/pan and dont think ur exactly in the middle thats ok!! This is just my way of feeling like ive more accurately labelled myself). I dont consider that bi erasure because its my way of identifying myself and i dont think that we should force real people to label themselves something that they dont feel as accurately represents them for the sake of representation.
PretentiousRed a lie??? I literally say that because i think it more accurately represents me. That's the opposite of lying lmao
IMO, I don't think the word gay should be treated like an umbrella term. If anything we should just call Gay Rights , Gay Marriage and the Gay Community, something more inclusive. I mean that's why you usually see the Gay Community being called the LGBT Community now. That's more inclusive than having Bisexuals just go by Gay. Also, there's a difference between being Gay and Bisexual so there should be independent terms anyways. And if Queer isn't a good umbrella term then we should just make a new one instead of making Gay into one. Because once we do that then you take away the ability for it to be used in a non-generalizing way. And I feel like we don't really see Gay as an umbrella term anyways. Because even though we know people call themselves Gay when talking about having same sex attraction, if it's someone you don't know, then when someone says they're Gay you assume they're, you know, Gay lol. It seems more confusing to me to call yourself Gay as a Bisexual to someone you don't know anyways. And we can't really see Gay as both an umbrella term and a specific lable for Lesbians/Gay men at the same time. People will always either assume one or the other or not know what exactly you mean, like with the word Queer. Queer can mean a lot of things because it's an umbrella term. And if Gay can mean Bi or Lesbian/A Gay Man, then how are Lesbians/Gay Men supposed to refer to themselves as Gay and know that others will understand how they identify? I know Lesbians can say Lesbian, but there's more stigma around the word Lesbian than Gay. Which is why a lot of Lesbians identify as Gay. It's more comfortable. And Gay Men can't call themselves anything else. Also, why is this mainly just something that Bi girls do? Oh, and I don't really have much of a problem with bisexuals saying things like "I'm so Gay" when talking about having sexual attraction to someone of the same sex.
Your cat is adorable
I know that this comment is not going to be a very popular one, but the main reason I don’t like when bisexuals call themselves gay is because gay is not an umbrella term. There are gay people, there are lesbians, there are bisexuals, and so many more. The umbrella term for all this is queer. I know many of you are going to think this is biphobia, but I’m not against the bi community in any way.
I'm perfectly okay with bisexuals calling something they did gay, but I just don't think it works a general umbrella term. I just wouldn't go around calling myself bisexual because that's not how I identify. I just don't think you should call yourself something you're not. Again, this is not biphobia, this is just me saying that gay is not an umbrella term.
PREACH
I hear you! As a bi woman I am so over being told by other people in the LGBT community how I can and can't refer to myself. I knew when you made that comment in your video there would be backlash. I'm very glad that you are speaking out about it.
PretentiousRed it not erasure if theyre literally using the word more😂😂
PretentiousRed Bi people can't erase gay people because gay people are socially dominant. It is impossible for a subordinate group to erase a dominant group. Look up the word monosexism and do a little research.
a bi half asian chickadee here saying thank you for being here.
Hiding or erasing your own sexuality is very different from bi erasure in media, so use the labels you want when they make sense to you. Marina was emphasising her gayness in that video, but she also recognizes her straightness, but even if she didn't, it's her own sexuality, not anyone else's.
I feel much the same as you about this. I'm a bisexual trans man who's mostly dated cis men, so most people assume I'm exclusively homosexual and I tend to just roll with it. It's just easier, especially since a lot of people are already confused about a "gay" dude with a vagina, and of course the whole "gay community" labelling.
Stewart needs to be over there cos you don't want him to be over there.
I think there are just two completely different definitions of the word 'gay'.
The first is 'any man who's not straight' and the second is 'any human being who's not straight'.
If you look at any dictionary, it's common for words to have multiple definitions.
I do think we could clear up the ambiguity by having another word for 'anyone who's not straight'. 'Gay' is just so APPEALING, though because it's SHORT!
I had very similar debates with friends in the past, and I argued the same point. If it's called Gay Rights and Gay Marriage and the Gay Community, then why can't I use a word that is constantly used to describe me? I didn't ask to be lumped into this category, but if I'm going to be, then I feel that I should be able to use the word whenever I please.
PretentiousRed
I can't tell whether PretentiousRed is trolling . . . or flirting.
'Gay' has been used to mean gay man. 'Gay' has been used to mean attracted to the same sex. 'Gay' has been used to mean anybody who is not exclusively straight. I'm an English major. These are not mistakes; it's just the nature of language. Most words have more than one definition. And that's okay.
Is your cat named Stewart because Kristen Stewart ? :p
did you name your cat after Kristen Stewart
Brooke Seitter lmao no, he was my parents' cat originally and my brother named him.
I don't consider gay to be an umbrella term, because it means "attraction to the same gender".
I believe bisexual people can use the word gay when referring to same-sex attraction that they have, but bisexual people calling themselves gay is kind of just incorrect, and it enforces bi erasure, and contributes to the problem of people not taking gay people seriously. For example, if a bi woman calles herself gay, and then has a relationship with a man, that makes people not believe a gay woman when she calls herself gay too. And if gay is an umbrella term that can refer to bi people, what are gay people supposed to call themselves? Gay means same sex attraction, so bi people can refer to that aspect of their sexuality as 'gay', but if they call themselves gay it is just wrong.
There is also a whole other argument where people say "bi people are just as gay as gay people" but I would have to disagree with that! How can someone be "just as gay" as a gay person, if they are attracted to the opposite gender? Bi people, by that logic, are just as straight as they are gay. But bisexual people are neither gay nor straight, they are BI!!! That is just wrong!!! It is bi erasure to refer to bi people as gay or straight, so why do bi people do it to themselves?
Gay is homosexual
Homosexual is gay
Homosexual is attraction to the same sex
An attraction to the same sex is homosexual
So attraction to the same sex is gay.
And don't accuse bi people of erasing themselves.
And lesbians don't own words.
i really like this type of videos, because you express yourself so well and it doesn't feel awkward or in need of editing, it's just you talking to us and it's nice! Also, yeah, i agree w your point on this one! Love you!
gay doens't mean same gender attraction, it means men attracted to men. i am bissexual and i don't like saying i'm gay, because i'm not gay , i'm bissexual (and a woman). i think its also a little strange when lesbians use "i'm gay", because they are putting the lesbian part of the lgbtq community on the same place as the gay part, which they are not in (but i'm not gonna say anything about that to people because its really not my place). In brazil the lgbtq comunity its more lGGGGGGGGGGbtq, so inside my social context, i dont like erasing my own identity. sorry for any english mistakes.
I use gay as a description, a state of things and I think it really helps to accept that you can have feeling for your own gender without it defining you completely (sexually or otherwise) So you can be GAY, or you can BE gay. Identity or feeling. Or both.
It goes with "gay" as a synonym for happy. In french litterature (gai, gaie) it's way more common to come across so it gets a really positive vibe too...
I identify as pan/bi, and I sometimes refer to myself as gay simply because I don't receive as much backlash from some people. In my opinion Bisexuals are half straight and half gay(and pan people are just gay, straight, and everything else too I guess) so therefore I think it's okay for us to use the umbrella label "gay" when the situation is appropriate. I agree with what Marina is saying, with the whole situational thing. I just use all 3 labels interchangeably to refer to my own identity, but I pick carefully based on who I'm talking to or referring to.
Would you ever refer to yourself as straight?
Really interesting topic! I'm bi. I don't use 'gay,' but often use the term 'lesbian' adjectivally to describe myself and my same-gender attractions and relationships. Not only does it just come out naturally but, as a cis woman, it's also been a way to passively assert myself as part of the lgbtq community. I think it's common for bi-erasure to take the form of bi women being seen as entirely straight and bi men being seen as entirely gay. So I can see how, as a bi man, calling themselves gay or using the term adjectivally to describe themselves would feel uncomfortable and oppressive to their bi identities, while doing the exact opposite for a bi woman. Both of these are valid, and even outside of the gender dichotomy, something can easily be oppressive to one person and liberating to another. So I personally disagree, but don't take issue with someone seeing this as bi-erasure. The accusation of appropriation, however, I find really problematic.
I always enjoy your videos and I even liked this unscripted! I don't know if you've done this before, but if you're looking for topics for your next video: 1) bi-privilege: do you think it exists, and if so, what are those privileges 2) a conversation on terminology: what the terms mean to you and why you identify as bi rather than something else/nothing -- point me in the right direction if you've already talked about these! And again, great video!
this is an interesting topic because i want to be open to the idea that i can't claim words that don't completely define me but i literally have no idea what other words to use. i think because we live in a bifurcated world where there isn't a lot of room for gray area, we just don't have the vocabulary to describe bisexual experience.
If someone says they don't want labels, that's fine. But if someone refers to same sex attraction as gay attraction it's suddenly "bi erasure"? This sounds to me less like people are worried about bi erasure, and more like people are worried about bisexuals identifying themselves as a marginalised group.
ayee re: "straight crush" and "gay crush". i'm genderqueer and polysexual. I refer to ALL my attraction as gay :) I def support people using whatever words they feel comfortable with, and strongly disagree that monosexuals have exclusive claim to the word gay, which sounds like what the "appropriating lesbians" argument is
From talking to gay women about this, it seems like part of the issue could be stemming from a fear of lesbian erasure - that with so many stories and movies like Chasing Amy already perpetuating the idea that gay identifying women secretly like men, bi women using the term too could further the stereotype. Although that argument falls flat pretty quickly when it's pointed out that biphobia and bi erasure are at the heart of what's wrong with those stories - that the characters' could be bisexual in the first place never gets addressed. And the fact that usually when bi people use the term gay, unless there's internalized biphobia involved, it's used to describe an aspect of their attraction rather than the entire thing. Great video, and a really interesting discussion
As a bi/pan person I like casually referring to my attraction to femme ppl as "gay". To me it feels like a way of reclaiming my place in the LGBTQ+ community, to state that I am "gay enough", I guess? not less of a gay? ^^
I don't see it as erasure but obviously some bisexuals might not like to refer to themselves as gay for that very reason and I'd understand that. Bi pride is obviously going to take diverse forms (just don't police other people's expression as long as it isn't oppressive, and if you think it might be maybe just question it and keep the conversation open).
And since bi people have less privilege than gay monosexuals and are oppressed within our own community, I really don't think you can talk about lesbian appropriation. The power dynamic doesn't go that way?? I'll root for lesbian pride all the way but I've seemed to notice a fragility when confronted with bi, and possibly nb and trans people, that I think should be addressed (eg casual biphobia as a part of lesbian culture and supported by lesbian public figures such as Arielle Scarcella, also excluding bi and/or nb or trans femmes from the "right" to sport a butch look... stuff like that)
But bisexual is such a long word.
Great video. Interesting to hear your thought on the subject.
I feel sorry for you, Marina. A lot of these comments are similar to the types of things you'd hear about being mixed race (as in you can't call yourself "Asian" since you're half white and you can't call yourself "white" because you're half Asian). Similarly, exclusively straight and exclusively gay people both tend to distance themselves from bisexual people, thereby ostracising them.
Well-put.
YES to everything you just said. also : your kitty omg😻
Opinion before watching (will edit after): My point of view (in short) as a lesbian is that lesbians are often perceived as performing their sexuality for the male gaze. Therefore to be a 'gay' bisexual and therefore liking men seems to contribute to this frustrating perception.
Edit: So i agree that referring to same sex crushes as gay makes total sense. When it comes to the issue of bi erasure i'm just not sure if i agree that the way to fight against it is to use the word gay (which is wrongly forced on you) instead of bisexual to describe yourself. Using the word bisexual more would surely help to assert the validity of your sexuality as a sexuality in its own right, if that makes sense? But that's just my opinion and as a lesbian I agree that its not my position to police what you say. Honestly I think we need more language to describe the wide variety of lgbt+ experiences.
In a world where we often seem to be pitted against one another. I have found that no matter what words I use I get erased and folk jump to conclusions from a standing start. People either immediately look at how I dress, (despite the flannel check) my age and my disability and *bing* I'm assumed het . Say I'm exclusively attracted to women and nonbinary folk, I''ll get written down as a lesbian by someone who hasn't bothered to ask me if I use the term -or alternatively as a sex freak by someone who hasn't actually asked when I last actually HAD asexual partner (years) . And that has been going on since before I can remember because I avoided all the boys in school. But no matter what I say, whoever I'm talking to, the one thing I can rely on is no-one is listening.
see. i'm non binary and use they/them pronouns and i refer to my attraction to my cis girlfriend (who is pansexual) as "gay" and she refers to her attraction to me as "gay"
Did you name your cat Stewart after Kristen Stewart?
As someone who identifies as bi/pan and agree with most of what you have said in this video, but the statement that describing same-gender attraction as bi would indicate liking at least two people of different genders is getting into murky and problematic waters because a common biphobic stereotype is that bisexuals cannot be monogamous. Just wanted to caution you on that!
I mean if bi people themselves refer to themselves as gay like who are others to complain?
Next they're going to police bisexuals saying "I'm bi!" when talking about attraction to 1 person (in place of gay) and say that that;s incorrect
i struggle with this. ive been aware of my sexuality for six years but there were 21 before that and i just recently questioned myself while trying to say that 13 reasons why made it clear yet again that my feelings towards certain girls in high school were gay. they weren't bisexual crushes, the girls in question were cis afaik! and also frankly i spent 21yrs denying it on some level even though i thought i had no homophobia in me so i feel like i owe it to me to say i had gay feelings as an ignorant baby bi
it's comments like that that just exhaust me with social justice
Let's take a look at some google definitions. I realize this is an argument from definition so this isn't completely rock solid but it holds some merit. Being gay means to be homosexual. And to be homosexual is to be "sexually attracted to people of one's own sex.". to be heterosexual is to be "sexually attracted to people of the opposite sex.". and to be bisexual means to be "sexually attracted to both men and women.". Note that neither homosexual or heterosexual aren't mutually exclusive because neither say "sexually attracted *only* to one's own sex/the opposite sex.". So if you are Bisexual you are both heterosexual and homosexual by these definitions. Which in turn means if you are bisexual you can call yourself gay because you are homosexual. now I realize there might be definitions of these words out there that make this shared state of homosexuality and heterosexuality impossible. However these contradicting definitions don't automatically cancel out the definitions I've just used here. and neither do the definitions I've used here cancel out the contradicting ones. So in terms of language; yes bisexuals can say they're gay. If you say I'm wrong because I use a different definition then this is a stalemate and we are both right and wrong. Words that hold contradicting definitions require either the use of clarifying terms or the creation of a new word entirely for one of the definitions to migrate to.
Fillers show that you're putting thought into what you're saying. I don't think there's anything wrong with using them.
That's true! It's hard to break the habit of associating filler words with the stigmatizing lectures from my Communications professors.
Marinaaaaaa. Yes, I think this question comes down to context. In general it's best to let an individual use whatever describing/ID words they choose as long as it's not harmful to themselves and others. I think your video had enough context e.g. you saying you're bi, to let everyone know you're not about bi erasure (sorry, that whole bit just makes me laugh. I mean, it's you calling yourself gay! What's wrong with that?!!?) If you were being sardonic and calling yourself gay, that might have been offensive and not cool, but like I said, I think your tone was clearly, "lol, look at my celebrity gurl crush." Nothing harmful there!
I'm pan and I say gay all the time, fuck it
I might not be completely gay, but I'm VERY gay, so there
I'm bi and my boyfriend gets pretty uncomfortable when I call myself gay, since I'm technically not. It's just become this weird thing we refuse to talk about
I think it is ironic that men used to rule everything so we used the word 'men' to mean 'men and women' (all men are created equal) and then we realized that was bullshit but now society became aware of gay men first so then 'gay' expanded to mean 'homosexual or bisexual men or women or other genders'.
It's ironic . . . but the word 'gay' is such a positive word! So cheerful. And so much less clumsy than 'homosexual'.
I think we should keep it. Gay should continue to mean anyone who's not straight. The 'gay community' should be everybody.
Maybe we need a new word for a homosexual man.
i mean, the term 'h*m*' has been problematic (it pathologizes gayness (in simpler terms, jic, it pretends gayness is a disease or illness)) for a long time. 'Gay' is the best word we have that doesn't have those (or worse) connotations.
Sienna
I know a lot of people *hate* the word 'homosexual'. It's so old-fashioned and it harkens back to a time when men used to lose their jobs and then would even be ostracized by everyone they knew. Or even arrested.
But I don't think it implies a mental disorder. Think of the word 'heterosexual'. All it means is someone with sexual attraction to the opposite sex. Nothing more.
I just see them as boring scientific terms.
I love the word 'gay'.
I just think we need to invent a few new words so that people will stop thinking of gay men as "the first gays" or "the original gays" or even worse "the group of people that runs the entire gay and transgender community".
Gay men are a cherished part of the LGBTQ community.
EVERY group is a cherished part of the LGBTQ community.
And maybe someday it will be the LGBTQS community. 'S' for 'straight'. 😊
the word was literally created for the purpose of pathologizing gay people but. okay.
Sienna
Oh, I'm not saying you're wrong!
And I apologize for spelling out the word.
I just mean, from a marketing perspective, heterosexuals today who were completely unfamiliar with the issues would look at those two words
heterosexual and h*m*------
and would say that the words seem to imply that they are two equally valid alternatives. Which is a good thing.
What's bad about the terms is that they have the word 'sex' in them, which for some reason makes people think that every single member of the gay community is obsessed with sex to the exclusion of anything else. Which is completely false.
But as I say, maybe I should even use the term 'gay community', because people think of a neighborhood where a lot of MEN live, which is not at all what I meant.
We probably need to invent some new words.
I'm not sure what situations you'd need to use 'the gay community' in. We already have "the acronymn", if you're talking about the greater LGBTQ world. And if you mean a specific community, I've yet to see a wider 'gay' community that wasn't split up into L, G, B, T, and often Trans Lesbians/Sapphics.
I totally agree with you and I do the same thing. My girlfriend likes to say I'm "so gay" when I obsess over boobs etc. and I like it and say it myself in those cases. However, I had a friend in high school who would refer to me as a lesbian and it bothered me so much. I would tell him not to and he would just say "well you're close enough" and even though I told him I didn't like it he still did it. I'm not entirely sure why but the way he says it like a noun versus my gf and I using it as an adjective, somehow feels like my bisexual identity is being erased.
There is a girl in my math class and she made a joke about self harm and then I said that's not how you cut yourself and that's not funny, and she was like, what do you do it. I told her no and I think she is spreading rumors around about me, I'm afraid someone might see my scars.
Anyone have advice
Thank you for making this video 💕
I found your emphasis on being in a relationship with a cis man - not just any man, but a cis man - interesting. Would it make a difference in this context if it were a trans man? Why the emphasis on his being cis? I'm just curious!
Oh, the reason I differentiated is because some men are non-binary or gender non-conforming (although some non-binary folks don't identify as men or women and that's cool too!) Bi women are often accused of being "secretly straight" if they're dating cis binary men, and I feel like if I dated someone who was non-binary or GNC it would complicate that assumption. Maybe saying "binary man" would have gotten that point across better? I don't think it would be any different if I was dating a binary trans dude, but society might treat that relationship differently depending on various factors. Like obviously trans men ARE men but strangers/acquaintances might make transphobic assumptions about it.
im bisexual but one thing i dont know is if i can say the f word, ive been called it many times but heard so many times that bi people shouldnt be able to say it or dont have a right to say it but idk
I saw someone on Tumblr criticizing bi and pan women for using the terms "butch" and "femme" to reference themselves, saying it was appropriation of lesbian culture. Idk what the hell appropriation of lesbian culture means, but I don't think that's a thing?? Sounds like some of these women just want to exclude women on the sexuality spectrum from their spaces. This mindset bothers me for the same reasons you gave in this video. Kinda wish these lesbian women showed more solidarity with bi and pan women
I dont think its appropriation, i think gay means that you like the same gender and bisexuals do like the same gender they just also like the opposite gender
appropriating lesbians? lolol This made my day
Girl you're rocking those clear frames
No one is perfectly straight 😝
What if the characters in shows are not playing bisexuals what if they're playing pansexuals that's why they don't want to put labels on things maybe that's the reason why
But it is gay. People are so whiny about the wrong things. This is of course coming from a bi person.
This is tricky because turning the situation on its head is... unrealistic? Like I don't think anybody would use the word "bisexual" about themselves "wrongly" (if we can even define what is a correct or incorrect usage). Even if someone called themselves bi and had never had a crush on anybody, I would be ok with that because to me bisexuality is almost the default position :P so I agree that we should be able to use the words that we feel apply in our own situation, as long as it doesn't lead to serious misunderstandings. And you saying that your crush was "so gay" makes total sense to me. Also, sometimes it's just nice to use the word gay instead of "same-sex" or whatever. It's easier for whomever you're talking to to process it. Although at the same time, I hate that same-sex marriage is almost always called gay marriage and same-sex couples are called gay couples, because if I married a woman, we wouldn't be a gay couple, we would just be a two-women couple. See? This is tricky and complicated, but I'm glad we're talking about it.
i'm aromantic most of the time but pan when i'm not (attraction is fluid! woo!). i casually use "gay" or "lesbian" (mostly while bemoaning how terrible i am at knowing if i'm coming across as "straight" to a cute femme or if a cute girl is flirting with me or not) as do many of my queer friends (BECAUSE THERE'S NEVER JUST ONE... WE FLOCK).
we're a bunch of different genders with a bunch of different romantic and sexual orientations (a lot of us are not even in the common initialisms so have to cling to that "Q" for dear life) yet we all habitually use "gay" when referring to femme/femme or masc/masc attraction... WHILE ALL AGREEING GENDER AND SEXUALITY ARE FLUID AND MANY OF US HAVING THOSE OURSELVES.
the gender binary fricked up orientations and terms to discuss them! DANG GENDER BINARY! but, yeah, never realised how WEIRD it was that we, even KNOWING a couple (fictional or real) is NOT made up of two cis-lesbian-women or two-lesbian-transwomen will STILL call them "lesbians" or "girlfriends".
Korrasami, for instance! two bisexual women! "OMG YAY HAPPY LESBIANS"! it's shorthand for saying two girls are in a relationship - because if you DON'T specify then they'll be assumed as straight (if you say "couple") or men (if you say "gays"). it's a very "doomed if you, doomed if you don't"-thing. like, WE know Korra and Asami are bi. WE know that this is two bi-women dating. but "THEY'RE IN LESBIANS WITH EACH OTHER!" is still what we in fandoms squeal with glee (no pun intended).
oh crap this is long. VERY interesting food for thought - especially since i was only vaguely aware i, aro!mode or pan, used "gay" and "lesbian" so often despite being neither. i'm mostly femme!identifying but am otherwise gender-indifferent... don't even ask me how THAT effects how i'm supposed to articulate attraction (aesthetic, romo or otherwise) because OH GOD HOW WILL I EVEN FUNCTION. O___O
anyway, stuart is Excellently Chaotic Neutral & this discussion has given me an articulatory-existential crisis. I MUST INFLICT THIS UPON MY FRIENDS IMMEDIATELY.
i was talking to some family friends abt a mutual bi friends and they were like 'oh yeah he's gay' and i said 'no he's bi' and they kept saying stuff like 'how do you know he's gay' and 'yeah he's so gay' and completely ignoring me and the fact that he was bi, which is just one example of gay being used to describe lgbt people in general. i feel like if we are labeled as gay anyway we should be entitled to use that term if we want?
also i just think that if a bi/pan/etc person is attracted to someone of the same gender it just makes sense to call that gay attraction?
also i call myself gay a LOT (im pan) but i don't think that's erasing my sexuality, it's just highlighting one part of it
idk these are just my thoughts. glad to see a video discussing this topic :)
I had cats that would do the cabinet door thing too, eventually we tried to get some childproof locks because it's where we kept their big ass bag of cat food which they would just get into and tear open. They learned how to maneuver the childproof locks lol
This is a great topic to talk about. It made me think about the differences in privilege between gay people and bisexual people. I think the word I would place on this kind of policing is...liberal elitism maybe? Because like...you can call yourself gay or lesbian for someone. I personally don't feel offended or "appropriated" if you were to say that.
Like I know that words hurt. And that there are so many instances where people say "it's just a word" or "it's just a movie" or "why are you so mad when there are starving children in the world" to erase the pain of underrepresented communities. But this...feels like a privileged case of syntax. Like there are, in my opinion, actually many more important things to be advocating for. The same way people try to derail my anger towards Scarjo in Ghost In The Shell by telling me that I'm being offensive by "not using her full name" yknow? I dunno.
Please check me if you feel differently.
I Love The move 'Dodge Ball' so much because one of the character is really open about being bisexual.
okay, so aside from all the time of respect I have for your channel and your candid expression of your views and emotions... I have to say if I haven't already that you are always so freaking adorable! okay, that is all, thanks.
I Had A Crush on Singer Aaliyah (RIP) that's when I knew I was into women..
i actually like to use "i'm so bi" a lot hahahaha maybe because i'm nb tho? bc in that case, what is 'the same gender', ya know? but yeah i thought that was funny
This is a really hard video to watch all the way through! It makes me appreciate edited versions
love the video, sounds like policing to me too as a panromantic ace. cause if i feel like calling myself gay when referring to a crush i have/had, I wouldn't want to hear someone outside or inside the community tell me i'm erasing my identity... in my opinion gay in this case can definitely be used as an umbrella term!
also why is it that cats know exactly when to come looking for attention?
Let's be rill-- you said and we all say "gaaaaay" "so gaaaay" as a low key way of re-appropriating that expression in a positive way.
That's the vibe I got.
Ain't nothing wrong with that. : )
Stuart is being epic in the background as always! XD :D
I say im gay all the time but im ace
I use the word gay a lot, even though I’m bi. It’s just a word I use, doesn’t take away from the fact that I’m bisexual.
For a bisexual it's just a word. To a Lesbian it's their identity. That difference is the reason why some lesbians have a problem with bi girls calling themselves "gay". Because it isn't just a word.
Target has these Vivitar phone accessories in their discount section for a couple bucks. One of them are phone/tablet stands that could help your phone not fall over.
finally! this is exactly what i think thank you marina
I agree with everything. (Especially the cat xD)
So… Is that Stewart? Or Stuart?
Also, yes, you can call yourself "gay" if you're bisexual. I mean, really? If you're bi, you're in SOME capacity attracted to someone who doesn't identify as the same gender that you do. (That sounds more like "pan" but the same logic applies.)
smh
relate, girl.
I identify as a gender, and when I have a girl crush I would refer it as lesbian crush and so does the other way around.
thank u for this video !!
I appreciate this video because this makes me feel good about my own sexual identity and sexual orientation.
I think cats do that because they want to be sitting in the area you're looking at! So you can never escape it :/ Just wanted to mention.
Hell yes
I've heard these comments before on my channel. I think if you're talking about another woman, even though YOU are bisexual, you're still in a lesbian relationship. I don't think there are other ways of saying these stuff, as a bisexual, without having to explain lots of things hahah
Sorry if this is biphobic and please correct me if I'm wrong (!!) but I feel like in the discussion of bisexuality there is a lot of talk about bi erasure, biphobia etc. (from both straight and gay people) which is super important, but I almost NEVER hear a bi person talk about privilege in relation to homosexuals. I mean I understand that gay folks can discredit bi folks identities a lot which is oppressive, but in the larger heteronormative, homophobic society - is there not also an opinion that bisexuality is a "milder offence" to the normal order? Wouldn't quite a few homophobic people treat bi people better - especially if they like yourself is currently in a hetero relationship aka "straight passing"? I don't know, my perception is that it's harder to be 100% gay than to be bi/pan but that bi/pan people rarely acknowledge this, but again - please correct me if I am wrong!
I can say in my experience, it isn't really better. My grandparents are very homophobic, and I can't tell them I'm bisexual. They are still very vehemently against it! I think to homophobic people, most of the time they don't really "get" gay people. And bisexuals confuse them even more. I think if they were with the opposite sex, they would still be mad that they're bi but just be dismissive of their sexuality as a whole. Think they're doing it for attention, or to rebel, etc. But as soon as they're with the same sex, they're just gay to homophobic people, or confused, etc. Either way, there's negative stigma from homophobics. I guess there is some privilege as far as "passing" goes? They can SOMETIMES pass as straight so they aren't as stigmatized. Idk man. It's still shitty, but sometimes in a different way. It depends on every situation, but I don't think there's much need to constantly be like "who has it worse" in the lgbtq world, ya know?
In my experience, being "straight passing" as a bi person is best compared to being forced back into the closet again and again (or never being able to be really "out") and research shows that bisexual people experience additional psychological distress because of this. That's not to say that bi people have it worse than gay people though. I think there are just differences in the types of difficulties each of these groups face. Of course it also very much depends on where you live and your own personal circumstances. For me it might have been easier if I was gay instead of bi because my family is very accepting of homosexuality. But bisexuality they seem to find confusing. The people (mostly straight people) I talk to on a daily basis on the whole seem to accept gay people at least to some degree, but are simultaneously quicker to question and deligitimize bisexuality. On the other hand, there are some advantages I have over gay folks but they are conditional on me dating a (cis or cis passing) dude. For example, I can hold hands with him wherever and whenever I want and not face stares or possibly violence.
Short answer: yis sis
Yes, we can.
do u think bi ppl can say the f word?
Im a Bi male and I've labeled myself as "gay"in any form or way but that's just me and for bisexual men you definitely have to make sure the major difference is understood !
*never*
I'm a bi woman with a preference for women and can I ask. Why are these things such a big deal to a lot of the younger bisexual women on social media? I've seen this same frustration over not getting to use gay terminology all over tumblr and like what's the deal? This is literately the perfect example of a non issue. Who cares if some meanie gay man or lesbian said "don't call yourself gay when your not gay." Like duh no brainer. There are so many issues affecting lgbtq over the world. I would ask all of us to question whether all this frustration and resentment is coming from a good place. I've seen sooooo much homophobia from other 20something college bisexual people and it's not cute. Let gay people be gay! Stop getting mad at them for creating cool terms and let's make something ourselves. For example, us Cali bi girls are spreading the term "tomcat" for masc presenting bi women and I want that shit to spread more so go go go.
AlmightyStan Thank you for this comment. I feel like there is a general lack of respect from the bi community lately and a lot of talking over gay peoples concerns. We have to listen to have solidarity.
I agree. If anything I just want everyone to know that for every weirdly hurtful video by a bi woman yall see on youtube, theres bi women like me out there that are just wondering 'wtf' like everyone else lol.Yall we need to be good to each other!
AlmightyStan well said, and I know that not all bisexuals are like that just as I hope that you know that there are lesbians out there who support your right to be who you are ❤️