I think Anna and Celia are the most amazing, inspirational guests you've ever had on your programs. They are so extraordinary in how they survived this scary, oppressive upbringing to grow into the beautiful, loving lights that they are. Wow, am just blown away by them!
@@calmkitty2 oh no! I will check it out. RUclips chooses where ads go and I click the option to not have too many but sometimes it doesn’t work … I’ll go fix it. Thanks for letting me know
Anything presented by Hidden True Crime is so eye opening…sometimes difficult because of my own cult childhood trauma, but I truly love and appreciate the chance to process so much of my own grief. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Please continue to bring light to all of us survivors.
Thank you, All, this was wonderful. These ladies, in their clear explanations, give insight into certain mindsets and how people can participate in destructive social groups.
Watching in *replay* here. I remember Anna from way back when we were first following the Daybell case, and I understood so little about the LDS faith in general. So glad to hear that these ladies’ stories are being well received!
I think Anna and Celia should maybe be invited back to help us understand the psychology of Garth and Emma... we're all struggling to understand how Chad can command such utter loyalty and defiance from his kids, and I'm not sure this can be understood by people who haven't experienced Mormonism from a point of view that's "stronger" or more intense than mainstream Mormonism.
I am so relieved to hear you ladies have this discussion! I suspect many of us have come to a similar conclusion about the original teachings, and how they contribute to believer’s susceptibility to extreme beliefs, even today. But, having survived growing up immersed in such beliefs, you are uniquely qualified to publicly express those connections and the dangers within. Thank you!
Thank tou, Ladies, you are so individual, so brave, and so authentic. Thank yiu for sharing. Lauren! Thank yiu for making this conversation possible. 💕💕
Celia and Anna BEST guests I've heard to learn about the history of Mormon theology in its many iterations (and I've heard hundreds in the past 2 years). Thank you Lauren - your background w LDS and your brilliant journalistic style, along w these 2 women, provide the most powerful and cogent analysis of this complex topic!
As one who has a Doctorate (Doctor of the Church: DMin in Church Leadership), I am excited for your journey, @annaklebaron Thank you for sharing your story!
I am so thankful for this. The fundamental doctrine of the Mormon church reveals the deification of men. Another fundamental principle is that God can speak directly to men, thus allowing the possibility of their own desires being fulfilled in a man’s beliefs.
I remember hearing about all that was going on with Elron and LeBaron while I was growing up. I just want to thank them for their honesty about their life. Thank you Lauren for having them on your podcast. 😊
Thank you for discussing this subject…so very interesting. We grew up in a family that took the bible literally, so many rules and restrictions. I think we have to search for our own truth. God is pure love not a punishing entity and Jesus came to teach us this.
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority, still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it."~ John Dalberg-Acton, (1st Baron Acton)
Finding out in the last few years, how some people, made a cult of this church. It's sorted and bizarre, and I don't blame people like these women, to leave the cult part. God would never tell people to kill others, to their discretion and steal their money. Remember the Ten Commandments, Gods laws! Thanks for this interview, ladies. It's so enlightening, to find out the similarities and differences. 🤔👍
I applaud these women for finding their own integrity. My thoughts: --we are in a disorienting time where patriarchy is finally fracturing ( not a gracious death, I must say) but I am happy about it since it's unbalanced and power over violent. When folks fear change, they often double down on the dogma so that they don't lose the only thing they have, their identity/illusion of who they are as MORE powerful than life itself. this is a result of fear, so again, I applaud anyone who is facile enough and has enough agency to ride the wave of change. I am so grateful, that as a young child, I had enough spiritual attunement to allow the example or essence of Jesus to inspire me and erase the abusive adults who seemed stuck in a child's mind all the while hurting children, women etc. A child takes everything literally concretely until the age of 4?, then they are mature enough to grok ideas into metaphors etc... How stunted we are as a society that dogma reigns. Me thinks its all coming to an end, so that we might actually embrace the essence of the teaching which is an experiential love , not a thought or belief. Seems an epic good vs evil juncture.
Yes- Eric Smith , Julie’s car skyping buddy actually wrote a book about multiple probations- titled that. If you haven’t seen it, in the playlist on hidden true crime, Eric did an interview with Lauren. I think he is the origin of many of the beliefs that Chad developed, but Chad took it to a new deadly level
It all goes back to the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. I like what one of the Sisters said. This is my version of what She said, that the everyday Mormon who just shows up at Church every week is not the person who will be interested in fundamentalist teachings. It's the devout Mormon, because they care.
My mom (in the modern mainstream LDS church) divorced for 30+ years from my dad, but is still sealed to him in the temple (you must be granted a temple divorce). She feels bad about herself, not Christlike enough to understand sharing my dad, because the mainstream church still makes her hold on to this “covenant” or “promise”and “blessings” and it’s all “according to her faithfulness” Still being married to my dad, essentially, while he’s got a “hot new wife” (her words, she’s not really even the jealous type, but she acts completely nutty.) How is this not complete brainwashing of mainstream (not fringe) LDS beliefs. Members would rationalize and say it’s not true, we don’t believe that or she shouldn’t be taking it, or thinking about it, that way, but ask a true believer or someone who isn’t trying to do a PR defense. Oh btw, that’s itself, is a temple covenant/promise. I made it myself when I went to the temple. To promise to defend the church, “even with your very life if necessary.” I have a feeling that might be one of the changes they’ve made to the temple within the last few years. They keep taking little steps, further and further away, from what they realize sounds blatantly culty. The mainstream LDS church is 100% part of this problem. Total BS to only throw shade on people that are “true ‘foundational’ believers” or breakaway/fringe groups. And sorry I’m only half way through watching so maybe we’ll get there. I’m just got so passionate after hearing Anna talk about her mom’s true feelings or how most polygamous wives truly feel. My mom probably only dares share her honest “weak moments” with me since I’m not a believer and won’t chastise her.
@@floridalife4 I’ve wondered a bit myself, but she strikes me as someone who’s (my guess) definitely a nonbeliever, and yet also like myself, haven’t had my name removed from official church records. No specific reason for me, probably more reasons to do it, but I do quite like my familysearch account (all 4 generations go back to Joseph Smith or thereabouts), but I’m pretty positive you don’t need to be more for that genealogy site. Who knows, maybe you do, because the reasons Mormons have always been so big on genealogy is so they can do family history research and find all the people that haven’t had their Mormon baptism and temple covenants done yet, and then you can check that box, request to do that dead person’s baptism, saving endowment ceremony, sealing for them to spouse and kids and parents, (for them to accept if they so choose in heaven). Anyway, all of that stuff is accessible or will have a different color bubble to that person’s name. I don’t ever look at anymore, but I absolutely LOVE diving in and researching the history. Seeing new documents, records, pictures, journals. I find things like my gg-Gpa’s first wife was one of Joseph Smith’s 14/15yo wives (Nancy Winchester). I barely learned JS was even a polygamist 5-6 years ago, so seeing that. WOW. And yeh, the record from one of the apostles that married her, promised my ggGpa a pretty young wife as well, but Nancy was older (40) and he wanted to let her have a child. So sad she only lived until her one son was 8yo before she died. And my ggGpa’s pretty young wife (my ggGma) raised him and another whole bunch of kids.) And if anyone’s from Rexburg, like myself, this one son had about 12 kids of his own. So I couldn’t believe this family was so prominent and I never knew this! (Steven Arnold, if I’m remembering right, and his dad was Amos). I love research, so that, and I still have access to my old tithing records, little things like that. But I could also see myself always identifying, maybe a bit of ingratiating myself, with my 9 siblings and family, or in context (whether records removed or not), but truly Mormonism is always something that’s part of who I am. Thank god it’s mostly in the past tense. ❤️ (Wow I literally cannot write short comments. Oh well.)
@@natalies4375 I never removed my name either, but I just felt like it was a scar that I didn't want. There was something so final about writing a strongly worded letter to people that I didn't know, while the people I did know were struggling with watching me go. A friend of mine that left years before me calls herself an ethnic Mormon. I felt that. There are non-practicing Jews that still identify with their culture of origin, so why not? For me, it's all nonsense, but on the other hand, if I wasn't so dedicated, and if I hadn't done everything exactly as I was asked to, I wouldn't have known that it wasn't really "the plan of happiness."
I'm very sorry for your Mom. The real God and the real Jesus are not cruel like this. They would not hold her to marriage vows the other partner had violated. Polygamy is wrong. It's always been wrong. God put up with a lot of nonsense through the years ... men divorcing their wives for frivolous reasons, multiple wives, etc. But Jesus said the original design/creation was for one man and one woman to join to become one and to remain faithfully joined only to each other for the remainder of their lives. Jesus indicated divorce was acceptable only when the other partner had cheated and broken their vows. Polygamy beliefs try to circumvent this by trying to whitewash adultery ... even claiming God ordained it. Nonsense!!! Adultery is adultery. The Apostle Paul said when an unbelieving spouse left the marriage, the believing spouse was not bound by that marriage. I wish joy and healing for your Mom. And separation from your Dad on every level, real, imagined, religious, and emotional. Mormon polygamy has got to be one of the cruelest inventions of sexually greedy men that ever tormented women and children. Read the biographies. The suffering is real. 😢
Love these gals! So much information on cultisms. So is the LDS of today a cult? I’m not nor have I am an LDS member. I just keep hearing so much negativity about the LDS.
I love their comment about moving too much to prep. Ive always thought that about chad and lori. Look how much she moved. And then moved into apartments with no garden or storage space.
Vice did an episode some years ago (available on RUclips) that featured Colonia Lebaron. It seemed quite nice--large, productive farms, well appointed homes, a Temple. The documentary touched on Ervil, but he was not the focus. It was quite an interesting watch.
“Multiple mortal probations” is just a very wordy way of say reincarnation. IMO, the Daybell cult didn’t need to find evidence of the idea in any official documents or teachings. They just made things up as they went along. The idea of reincarnation is ancient and extensive. Most commonly associated with Asian religious/philosophical traditions, exploration of the idea can be found in cultures all over the globe. There’s even evidence of ancient Greeks and Celtic Druids pondering the possibility. Just more confirmation, in my mind, that Chad stole ideas , rebranded them, and used them in furtherance of his quest for money, sex, and power.
Someone should do a dive into the Jim Harmstoms group and the TLC. His teachings have harmed so many people and the amount of money he took in was outrageous
I love these ladies… all honorable maidens of Athena: intelligent, beautiful, skilled, loyal, sisterly, industrious, courageous with their beautiful hearts, such an interesting discussion on “never enough, narcissistic grandiosity, messiah complex hinding behind religiosity (cult)”. Please invite them again. #justice for jj tylee tammy charles 🐈 a kitty joined the discussion too😊 2024-2-10: Year of the 🐉 dragon 🐉 sharing yummy food 🥟🥟🥟🥟 and tea 🍵🍵🍵🍵🧋🧋🧋🧋with HTC community celebrating with us in Taiwan. 🌈🌈🌈🌈
I agree with the religion in therapy comment. Let the patient bring in their religion to their therapy if they choose. But, the therapist should not exert their own religion on their patient, especially making their religion part of the patient's therapy.
One thing maybe I have missed is what happened to their mother? I keep going back to the documentary where Celia left the cult after her mother said “maybe you should just leave” the betrayal I felt for her was profound my partner thinks maybe the mother was trying to protect her? I keep thinking about it…
I beileve all the ladies could have saved Tammy on her first atempt instead of standing in a circle chanting for her to die i think they all should have been charged for something i believe they clearly knew Alex was on her property to shoot her dead 😢
Power corrupts. These two women nail it. They have seen this from the inside. The writings they talk about are the tools people use to justify their behaviour, and these writings are the roots of the Mormon religion so those who seek deeper knowledge will always find them. Look to see who benefits from every structure. It is almost always the patriarchy. Jodie Hildebrandt used religious core Mormonism beliefs to enrich herself and have power over others. Belief in Murder and abuse should be a warning sign to everyone. Always look at who benefits from these actions and beliefs. I agree Lori V. Was twisted by religious belief, these original books, and Chad D. K and C need to be UN brainwashed to understand their crimes. I wonder if that will ever happen. And how does this happen? Does Doctor B. Believe this is possible and if so, what does it take to get people to become unendoctrinated? It would be interesting to hear of some examples, if they exist, of perpetrators who have realized their wrongs. I can’t imagine Lori living with what she did if she ever comes out of her cult beliefs. Those original doctrines are scary and people will use them to their own benefit as long as they exist.
I was raised Mormon, and now pay the price Although none of my siblings live the religion , neither do my parents, I am ostracised. Maybe not due to Mormonism , I just couldn't do it. I now feel a bit lost. I am working on how to accept a God who I never knew. I believe there is a God, because a of something that happened when showed up when my baby died. Dont believe you need another person/church to have it. I cant even tell ppl that. Just cuzz, it pisses them off.
13:08 I think the word you are looking for is perhaps polyandry. Polygamy = one husband multiple wives. Polyandry = one wife multiple husbands. Polyamory means multiple lovers, not necessarily married. In current modern usage polyamory typically refers to something more similar to open relationships and/or swinging where there are multiple combinations and everyone involved is aware and consenting but there may or may not be marriages (legal or otherwise) involved in all or any of the couplings.
This is interesting, I’ve recently found out that people I know in Utah have had blessing in the name of the Church of the First Born, yet they are very active in LDS church (the one giving the blessing and receiving). The receiver wasn’t sure why that was said in the blessing.
About 15 years ago, I read a book that was presented as a novel but was a retelling of the story of Joseph Smith and his followers coming westward in their horse drawn wagons. I can’t remember the name of the book. Does anyine know?
You do realize what you see on the news are the most extreme of all cases? This is not who we are, I assure you. I'm abhorred by this entire case (and bewildered!)
I have to defend my loved ones here. I am exmo, and I have studied a lot of the original works from JS. I'm not saying he for sure was framed for some of the stuff, like polygamy, but there is a lot of evidence pointing to that and I hate when there is even the possibility that someone could be innocent and keeps being railroaded. That's originally why I left. I don't know for sure if it's true, but if the brethren aren't even acknowledging the possibility, and still claiming polygamy to be an eternal principle, and excommunicating people for even talking about it when there is a huge question mark, I just couldn't be part of something so ambiguous. I don't even consider myself a Christian anymore, so I don't have much use for any of it, but a lot of the people that are going off on this tangent, really do have good intentions. Trust me, I've gotten into it with them too, (The prepper stuff, homosexuality, The BofM and the Bible) but I know a bunch of them personally, and their main goal is to do what Jesus wants. Chad and his friends literally made up a whole new religion that is piecemeal from multiple religions and belief systems, to suit their agenda. Sociopaths and narcissists will take anything and twist it. It doesn't matter how benign the teaching is. A sociopath doesn't even need a doctrine to start a cult, ie. L. Ron Hubbard. I just don't want the people that I've seen go off into the tangent groups get lumped in with the extremists. They are getting lumped in with murderers, abusers and rapists. These are people that would give you the shirt off their back. Sorry for the long comment, but when the sisters, who to their credit seem like perfectly good people with good intentions, kind of went off on LDS people, I just felt icky. I saw it all go down. I had my own experiences. I just felt like I had to speak up for my friends who have been burned as well. We are all in pain.
Tammy was not her friend Chad would rather kill Tamny before he could even think about telling tammy about that looser Lori Vallow he does not respect Lori i promise yall look where he's at with his trial totally disassociated from Lori Vallow its over just as fast as it started he knows there will never be an interment moment with her ever again and thats exactly what he shows us 😢
The whole Mormon religion sounds sketchy. I didn’t know anything about the religion until the Vallow/Daybell case. I mean I knew there was a Mormon religion, but I had no idea how that creepy religion works.
As a Christian therapist who is coming from that perspective I beg to differ If you don't want a Christian perspective...please do not go to a Christian therapist. I have worked hard for 30 years to show people how God is FOR therapy. How He gave the knowledge and wants people HEALED. Body and spirit. I am Not Mormon. . Maybe that's a big difference?? I don't know. But I am Christian therapist who has helped hundreds of women find freedom from drugs, alcohol, abuse, ect. Be careful what all you DUMP into one category. I would Never go to a non Christian therapist
There should be no difference going to a Christian therapist, an atheist therapist, a Republican therapist or a Democrat therapist if they are being ethical therapists and leaving their personal social and religious views out of the session and allowing the client to lead and process. If someone is seeking a Christian based coaching or counseling session or program, then I understand and respect that. AA is faith based and has worked for many. but it’s a program and support group, not therapy. I would personally never go to any therapist who invokes into my session their personal beliefs. But I have sought out coaching in the past for personal reasons and they do add into our session their programs and beliefs, but I am there to seek their expertise in particular areas like work or relationships If what you offer is a faith based Christian program then I can understand that people would seek you out for that expertise
Lauren, I completely agree with your statement and I think that this would be a great topic for you and John to share. I believe this is very important.
I feel like everybody who was involved with Chad and Lori wanted attention, like Melani G . Sulema P. and the attention seeker of them all the one and only Julie Rowe she made my stomach turn she did everything but testify i believe Chad could have influenced her to do much more but i think he knew she talked to much and you can bet it came staight down from Lori Vallow 😮😮😮
Lauren I am curious if you are still a member of the LDS Church? I was born in 1954 into the church and left in 1992. I just wonder if all this has affected your own belief system.
Yes he certainly strikes me as jealous as insecure - most the Ten Commandments are about him and him worrying people don’t worship him enough. There are so many other things eg “thou shalt not abuse children “ “thou shalt not beat your wife “ so many other good commandments But ahhhh well Luckily his son seemed a lot more different to that god who ordered deaths of people if they picked up sticks on the sabbath!
59:06 I think that in the past, when infant & child mortality was very high (particular in the 1800s) parents would sometimes give the deceased child’s name to their next child of the same sex. Any historian here who can either confirm this, or alternatively, set me straight?
18 minutes in and all I’ve got is that there are similarities to Daybell and that Lori & Chad were polygamists. I really like you guys but I don’t think I can do 2 hours of this.
I think Anna and Celia are the most amazing, inspirational guests you've ever had on your programs. They are so extraordinary in how they survived this scary, oppressive upbringing to grow into the beautiful, loving lights that they are. Wow, am just blown away by them!
I agree❤
OMG. So many ads
Like ten less than an hour
Geez
Anna & Celia are amazing to listen to!!! Thank you so much for having them on your show!!!
@@calmkitty2 oh no! I will check it out. RUclips chooses where ads go and I click the option to not have too many but sometimes it doesn’t work … I’ll go fix it. Thanks for letting me know
Meagan Conner is the most interesting guest as far as all cult discussion 😮
Anything presented by Hidden True Crime is so eye opening…sometimes difficult because of my own cult childhood trauma, but I truly love and appreciate the chance to process so much of my own grief.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Please continue to bring light to all of us survivors.
And PLEASE question “God in therapy”.
Thank you, All, this was wonderful. These ladies, in their clear explanations, give insight into certain mindsets and how people can participate in destructive social groups.
Watching in *replay* here. I remember Anna from way back when we were first following the Daybell case, and I understood so little about the LDS faith in general. So glad to hear that these ladies’ stories are being well received!
I think Anna and Celia should maybe be invited back to help us understand the psychology of Garth and Emma... we're all struggling to understand how Chad can command such utter loyalty and defiance from his kids, and I'm not sure this can be understood by people who haven't experienced Mormonism from a point of view that's "stronger" or more intense than mainstream Mormonism.
I watched the documentary. What an interesting life! Thank you for going further and being on hidden true crime ❣
I am so relieved to hear you ladies have this discussion! I suspect many of us have come to a similar conclusion about the original teachings, and how they contribute to believer’s susceptibility to extreme beliefs, even today. But, having survived growing up immersed in such beliefs, you are uniquely qualified to publicly express those connections and the dangers within. Thank you!
I agree so much. Pride in religion, politics, or any organization is such a dangerous thing. It's terrifying.
Im not Mormon and these discussions are teaching me so much on these beliefs and comparisons. Thank you so much.
Great guests! 🎉 These ladies are so inspirational.
Thank tou, Ladies, you are so individual, so brave, and so authentic. Thank yiu for sharing.
Lauren! Thank yiu for making this conversation possible. 💕💕
Celia and Anna BEST guests I've heard to learn about the history of Mormon theology in its many iterations (and I've heard hundreds in the past 2 years). Thank you Lauren - your background w LDS and your brilliant journalistic style, along w these 2 women, provide the most powerful and cogent analysis of this complex topic!
Blood atonement for Lori and Chad was strangely associated with the possession of a paid up life insurance policy.
Well, that did happen. (Except for beautiful Tylee & JJ 💔)
But for JJ and Tylee, Lori just kept receiving their government benefits. So maybe no life insurance, but financial gain nonetheless.
As one who has a Doctorate (Doctor of the Church: DMin in Church Leadership), I am excited for your journey, @annaklebaron Thank you for sharing your story!
The Sisters Le Baron are a force of NATURE! As is Lauren, of course x
I am so thankful for this. The fundamental doctrine of the Mormon church reveals the deification of men. Another fundamental principle is that God can speak directly to men, thus allowing the possibility of their own desires being fulfilled in a man’s beliefs.
I remember hearing about all that was going on with Elron and LeBaron while I was growing up. I just want to thank them for their honesty about their life. Thank you Lauren for having them on your podcast. 😊
Great convo! I wouldn’t be good at keeping sweet 😂
Thank you thank you!
Best, most fascinating episode of your show I’ve seen!! These women are insightful and kinda fearless!
Thank you for discussing this subject…so very interesting. We grew up in a family that took the bible literally, so many rules and restrictions. I think we have to search for our own truth. God is pure love not a punishing entity and Jesus came to teach us this.
This is very interesting and eye opening to me. Thank you ladies.
Another great interview ❤ Love to you all.
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority, still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it."~ John Dalberg-Acton, (1st Baron Acton)
Replay crew!!! So happy to see these ladies back!
Loved this so much ❤
Finding out in the last few years, how some people, made a cult of this church. It's sorted and bizarre, and I don't blame people like these women, to leave the cult part. God would never tell people to kill others, to their discretion and steal their money. Remember the Ten Commandments, Gods laws! Thanks for this interview, ladies. It's so enlightening, to find out the similarities and differences. 🤔👍
I applaud these women for finding their own integrity. My thoughts: --we are in a disorienting time where patriarchy is finally fracturing ( not a gracious death, I must say) but I am happy about it since it's unbalanced and power over violent. When folks fear change, they often double down on the dogma so that they don't lose the only thing they have, their identity/illusion of who they are as MORE powerful than life itself. this is a result of fear, so again, I applaud anyone who is facile enough and has enough agency to ride the wave of change. I am so grateful, that as a young child, I had enough spiritual attunement to allow the example or essence of Jesus to inspire me and erase the abusive adults who seemed stuck in a child's mind all the while hurting children, women etc. A child takes everything literally concretely until the age of 4?, then they are mature enough to grok ideas into metaphors etc... How stunted we are as a society that dogma reigns. Me thinks its all coming to an end, so that we might actually embrace the essence of the teaching which is an experiential love , not a thought or belief. Seems an epic good vs evil juncture.
So true Lauren!
I may be wrong but I feel like I remember reading about multiple probations in Julie Rowe’s books, which Chad Daybell published.
Yes- Eric Smith , Julie’s car skyping buddy actually wrote a book about multiple probations- titled that.
If you haven’t seen it, in the playlist on hidden true crime, Eric did an interview with Lauren. I think he is the origin of many of the beliefs that Chad developed, but Chad took it to a new deadly level
It all goes back to the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. I like what one of the Sisters said. This is my version of what She said, that the everyday Mormon who just shows up at Church every week is not the person who will be interested in fundamentalist teachings. It's the devout Mormon, because they care.
My mom (in the modern mainstream LDS church) divorced for 30+ years from my dad, but is still sealed to him in the temple (you must be granted a temple divorce). She feels bad about herself, not Christlike enough to understand sharing my dad, because the mainstream church still makes her hold on to this “covenant” or “promise”and “blessings” and it’s all “according to her faithfulness” Still being married to my dad, essentially, while he’s got a “hot new wife” (her words, she’s not really even the jealous type, but she acts completely nutty.)
How is this not complete brainwashing of mainstream (not fringe) LDS beliefs. Members would rationalize and say it’s not true, we don’t believe that or she shouldn’t be taking it, or thinking about it, that way, but ask a true believer or someone who isn’t trying to do a PR defense. Oh btw, that’s itself, is a temple covenant/promise. I made it myself when I went to the temple. To promise to defend the church, “even with your very life if necessary.” I have a feeling that might be one of the changes they’ve made to the temple within the last few years. They keep taking little steps, further and further away, from what they realize sounds blatantly culty.
The mainstream LDS church is 100% part of this problem. Total BS to only throw shade on people that are “true ‘foundational’ believers” or breakaway/fringe groups.
And sorry I’m only half way through watching so maybe we’ll get there. I’m just got so passionate after hearing Anna talk about her mom’s true feelings or how most polygamous wives truly feel. My mom probably only dares share her honest “weak moments” with me since I’m not a believer and won’t chastise her.
I wonder if Lauren has had her name removed from the church records because just a few months ago she herself was still LDS.
@@floridalife4 I’ve wondered a bit myself, but she strikes me as someone who’s (my guess) definitely a nonbeliever, and yet also like myself, haven’t had my name removed from official church records. No specific reason for me, probably more reasons to do it, but I do quite like my familysearch account (all 4 generations go back to Joseph Smith or thereabouts), but I’m pretty positive you don’t need to be more for that genealogy site. Who knows, maybe you do, because the reasons Mormons have always been so big on genealogy is so they can do family history research and find all the people that haven’t had their Mormon baptism and temple covenants done yet, and then you can check that box, request to do that dead person’s baptism, saving endowment ceremony, sealing for them to spouse and kids and parents, (for them to accept if they so choose in heaven). Anyway, all of that stuff is accessible or will have a different color bubble to that person’s name. I don’t ever look at anymore, but I absolutely LOVE diving in and researching the history. Seeing new documents, records, pictures, journals. I find things like my gg-Gpa’s first wife was one of Joseph Smith’s 14/15yo wives (Nancy Winchester). I barely learned JS was even a polygamist 5-6 years ago, so seeing that. WOW. And yeh, the record from one of the apostles that married her, promised my ggGpa a pretty young wife as well, but Nancy was older (40) and he wanted to let her have a child. So sad she only lived until her one son was 8yo before she died. And my ggGpa’s pretty young wife (my ggGma) raised him and another whole bunch of kids.)
And if anyone’s from Rexburg, like myself, this one son had about 12 kids of his own. So I couldn’t believe this family was so prominent and I never knew this! (Steven Arnold, if I’m remembering right, and his dad was Amos).
I love research, so that, and I still have access to my old tithing records, little things like that. But I could also see myself always identifying, maybe a bit of ingratiating myself, with my 9 siblings and family, or in context (whether records removed or not), but truly Mormonism is always something that’s part of who I am. Thank god it’s mostly in the past tense. ❤️
(Wow I literally cannot write short comments. Oh well.)
@@natalies4375 I never removed my name either, but I just felt like it was a scar that I didn't want. There was something so final about writing a strongly worded letter to people that I didn't know, while the people I did know were struggling with watching me go.
A friend of mine that left years before me calls herself an ethnic Mormon. I felt that. There are non-practicing Jews that still identify with their culture of origin, so why not? For me, it's all nonsense, but on the other hand, if I wasn't so dedicated, and if I hadn't done everything exactly as I was asked to, I wouldn't have known that it wasn't really "the plan of happiness."
I'm very sorry for your Mom. The real God and the real Jesus are not cruel like this. They would not hold her to marriage vows the other partner had violated. Polygamy is wrong. It's always been wrong. God put up with a lot of nonsense through the years ... men divorcing their wives for frivolous reasons, multiple wives, etc. But Jesus said the original design/creation was for one man and one woman to join to become one and to remain faithfully joined only to each other for the remainder of their lives.
Jesus indicated divorce was acceptable only when the other partner had cheated and broken their vows. Polygamy beliefs try to circumvent this by trying to whitewash adultery ... even claiming God ordained it. Nonsense!!! Adultery is adultery.
The Apostle Paul said when an unbelieving spouse left the marriage, the believing spouse was not bound by that marriage.
I wish joy and healing for your Mom. And separation from your Dad on every level, real, imagined, religious, and emotional.
Mormon polygamy has got to be one of the cruelest inventions of sexually greedy men that ever tormented women and children. Read the biographies. The suffering is real. 😢
Love these gals! So much information on cultisms. So is the LDS of today a cult? I’m not nor have I am an LDS member. I just keep hearing so much negativity about the LDS.
We're not a cult, but these people seem to have created their own, with all rules in their favor
I love their comment about moving too much to prep. Ive always thought that about chad and lori. Look how much she moved. And then moved into apartments with no garden or storage space.
Vice did an episode some years ago (available on RUclips) that featured Colonia Lebaron. It seemed quite nice--large, productive farms, well appointed homes, a Temple. The documentary touched on Ervil, but he was not the focus. It was quite an interesting watch.
“Multiple mortal probations” is just a very wordy way of say reincarnation. IMO, the Daybell cult didn’t need to find evidence of the idea in any official documents or teachings. They just made things up as they went along. The idea of reincarnation is ancient and extensive. Most commonly associated with Asian religious/philosophical traditions, exploration of the idea can be found in cultures all over the globe. There’s even evidence of ancient Greeks and Celtic Druids pondering the possibility. Just more confirmation, in my mind, that Chad stole ideas , rebranded them, and used them in furtherance of his quest for money, sex, and power.
VERY well said!
It’s like a serial killer that continued his crimes after death. Sorry you two had to go through all of this. Wishing you entire family the best.
Someone should do a dive into the Jim Harmstoms group and the TLC. His teachings have harmed so many people and the amount of money he took in was outrageous
By the way, you guys are doing a great job. Love you.
I love these ladies… all honorable maidens of Athena: intelligent, beautiful, skilled, loyal, sisterly, industrious, courageous with their beautiful hearts, such an interesting discussion on “never enough, narcissistic grandiosity, messiah complex hinding behind religiosity (cult)”. Please invite them again. #justice for jj tylee tammy charles
🐈 a kitty joined the discussion too😊
2024-2-10: Year of the 🐉 dragon 🐉 sharing yummy food 🥟🥟🥟🥟 and tea 🍵🍵🍵🍵🧋🧋🧋🧋with HTC community celebrating with us in Taiwan. 🌈🌈🌈🌈
I agree with the religion in therapy comment. Let the patient bring in their religion to their therapy if they choose. But, the therapist should not exert their own religion on their patient, especially making their religion part of the patient's therapy.
Makes me think of Jodi Hildebrandt who got so many patients from the bishop's of the LDS church.
One thing maybe I have missed is what happened to their mother? I keep going back to the documentary where Celia left the cult after her mother said “maybe you should just leave” the betrayal I felt for her was profound my partner thinks maybe the mother was trying to protect her? I keep thinking about it…
Thanks!
Thank you!
G-d doesn't snuff out peoples
lives . Life is precious we were brought up to understand that ver young
I beileve all the ladies could have saved Tammy on her first atempt instead of standing in a circle chanting for her to die i think they all should have been charged for something i believe they clearly knew Alex was on her property to shoot her dead 😢
Power corrupts. These two women nail it. They have seen this from the inside. The writings they talk about are the tools people use to justify their behaviour, and these writings are the roots of the Mormon religion so those who seek deeper knowledge will always find them. Look to see who benefits from every structure. It is almost always the patriarchy. Jodie Hildebrandt used religious core Mormonism beliefs to enrich herself and have power over others. Belief in Murder and abuse should be a warning sign to everyone. Always look at who benefits from these actions and beliefs. I agree Lori V. Was twisted by religious belief, these original books, and Chad D. K and C need to be UN brainwashed to understand their crimes. I wonder if that will ever happen. And how does this happen? Does Doctor B. Believe this is possible and if so, what does it take to get people to become unendoctrinated? It would be interesting to hear of some examples, if they exist, of perpetrators who have realized their wrongs. I can’t imagine Lori living with what she did if she ever comes out of her cult beliefs. Those original doctrines are scary and people will use them to their own benefit as long as they exist.
One mighty and strong to put Gods house in order. The arrogance in this statement alone is staggering.
I was raised Mormon, and now pay the price
Although none of my siblings live the religion
, neither do my parents, I am ostracised.
Maybe not due to Mormonism , I just couldn't do it. I now feel a bit lost. I am working on how to accept a God who I never knew. I believe there is a God, because a of something that happened when showed up when my baby died. Dont believe you need another person/church to have it. I cant even tell ppl that. Just cuzz, it pisses them off.
I dont believe you can tell a person what to believe , even if it makes sense. I
never tried, because I knew.
I have never done this before. Am open minded. Dont know what it means when I get part of my message back. Let me know, , please
I am reading Recovering Agency lifting the veil of Mormon Mind Control.
Terrible things were practiced in the forest. People died. The towns people ran them out, they dispersed to brown co Indiana and Oklahoma.
You three are adorable. It’s kinda like a pajama party tonight. ❤
13:08 I think the word you are looking for is perhaps polyandry. Polygamy = one husband multiple wives. Polyandry = one wife multiple husbands.
Polyamory means multiple lovers, not necessarily married. In current modern usage polyamory typically refers to something more similar to open relationships and/or swinging where there are multiple combinations and everyone involved is aware and consenting but there may or may not be marriages (legal or otherwise) involved in all or any of the couplings.
I don't think "Polyamory" should be used in the Daybells' relationship, because 2 of the 4 parties did not consent to Lori and Chad being together.
❤❤❤AMAZING WOMEN❤❤❤
This is interesting, I’ve recently found out that people I know in Utah have had blessing in the name of the Church of the First Born, yet they are very active in LDS church (the one giving the blessing and receiving). The receiver wasn’t sure why that was said in the blessing.
About 15 years ago, I read a book that was presented as a novel but was a retelling of the story of Joseph Smith and his followers coming westward in their horse drawn wagons. I can’t remember the name of the book. Does anyine know?
Could it be "The Standard of Truth?" I read it a couple of years ago and it sounds the same.
lebron this isn’t you 😢
With the Mormon Church if its not murder its Poligimy one or the other and it attacts a lot of men 😢 whats the problem with these ppl 😢
You do realize what you see on the news are the most extreme of all cases? This is not who we are, I assure you. I'm abhorred by this entire case (and bewildered!)
I know this is later than "live " but just Google multiple mortal probations. There is an article saying it comes from back in the beginning of LDS😮
Visions of glory? Or visions of Lori
I agree they would have to disavow the whole phony teaching, but would they, the LDS church be as they equate JS with Jesus or higher?
I have to defend my loved ones here. I am exmo, and I have studied a lot of the original works from JS. I'm not saying he for sure was framed for some of the stuff, like polygamy, but there is a lot of evidence pointing to that and I hate when there is even the possibility that someone could be innocent and keeps being railroaded. That's originally why I left. I don't know for sure if it's true, but if the brethren aren't even acknowledging the possibility, and still claiming polygamy to be an eternal principle, and excommunicating people for even talking about it when there is a huge question mark, I just couldn't be part of something so ambiguous.
I don't even consider myself a Christian anymore, so I don't have much use for any of it, but a lot of the people that are going off on this tangent, really do have good intentions. Trust me, I've gotten into it with them too, (The prepper stuff, homosexuality, The BofM and the Bible) but I know a bunch of them personally, and their main goal is to do what Jesus wants. Chad and his friends literally made up a whole new religion that is piecemeal from multiple religions and belief systems, to suit their agenda.
Sociopaths and narcissists will take anything and twist it. It doesn't matter how benign the teaching is. A sociopath doesn't even need a doctrine to start a cult, ie. L. Ron Hubbard. I just don't want the people that I've seen go off into the tangent groups get lumped in with the extremists. They are getting lumped in with murderers, abusers and rapists. These are people that would give you the shirt off their back.
Sorry for the long comment, but when the sisters, who to their credit seem like perfectly good people with good intentions, kind of went off on LDS people, I just felt icky. I saw it all go down. I had my own experiences. I just felt like I had to speak up for my friends who have been burned as well. We are all in pain.
have u guys heard of the Knights of the Crystal Blade? They evidently had some background with the LDS Church. Thanks
Have you heard about the cult that formed in indiana in early 1900s part of Church of first born, started as Crabbites?
Tammy was not her friend Chad would rather kill Tamny before he could even think about telling tammy about that looser Lori Vallow he does not respect Lori i promise yall look where he's at with his trial totally disassociated from Lori Vallow its over just as fast as it started he knows there will never be an interment moment with her ever again and thats exactly what he shows us 😢
The whole Mormon religion sounds sketchy. I didn’t know anything about the religion until the Vallow/Daybell case. I mean I knew there was a Mormon religion, but I had no idea how that creepy religion works.
As a Christian therapist who is coming from that perspective I beg to differ
If you don't want a Christian perspective...please do not go to a Christian therapist.
I have worked hard for 30 years to show people how God is FOR therapy. How He gave the knowledge and wants people HEALED. Body and spirit.
I am Not Mormon. .
Maybe that's a big difference?? I don't know. But I am Christian therapist who has helped hundreds of women find freedom from drugs, alcohol, abuse, ect.
Be careful what all you DUMP into one category. I would Never go to a non Christian therapist
There should be no difference going to a Christian therapist, an atheist therapist, a Republican therapist or a Democrat therapist if they are being ethical therapists and leaving their personal social and religious views out of the session and allowing the client to lead and process.
If someone is seeking a Christian based coaching or counseling session or program, then I understand and respect that.
AA is faith based and has worked for many. but it’s a program and support group, not therapy.
I would personally never go to any therapist who invokes into my session their personal beliefs.
But I have sought out coaching in the past for personal reasons and they do add into our session their programs and beliefs, but I am there to seek their expertise in particular areas like work or relationships
If what you offer is a faith based Christian program then I can understand that people would seek you out for that expertise
Lauren, I completely agree with your statement and I think that this would be a great topic for you and John to share. I believe this is very important.
To help them in dismembering them ??????
Sorry but I keep thinking she’s a convict with the orange top lol
Chad was not hubby #2. He was #5
What is the difference between "multiple mortal probations" and reincarnation?
I feel like everybody who was involved with Chad and Lori wanted attention, like Melani G . Sulema P. and the attention seeker of them all the one and only Julie Rowe she made my stomach turn she did everything but testify i believe Chad could have influenced her to do much more but i think he knew she talked to much and you can bet it came staight down from Lori Vallow 😮😮😮
❤
I think the Lori-Chad temple meeting was in February 2019 sealing their union.
Then Lori went to Hawaii.
Lauren I am curious if you are still a member of the LDS Church? I was born in 1954 into the church and left in 1992. I just wonder if all this has affected your own belief system.
At least your husband isn't hiding his cheating... in polygamy. 🤷♀️
7 missions and 7 gatherers
Most religions I feel subject women to slavery!
Doesn’t the Bible state “Have no other Gods but me because I am a jealous God.”
Yes he certainly strikes me as jealous as insecure - most the Ten Commandments are about him and him worrying people don’t worship him enough. There are so many other things eg “thou shalt not abuse children “ “thou shalt not beat your wife “ so many other good commandments
But ahhhh well
Luckily his son seemed a lot more different to that god who ordered deaths of people if they picked up sticks on the sabbath!
I think mortal probations come from Adam God theory because Adam would have had to mortal in another earth before becoming God of this one.
59:06 I think that in the past, when infant & child mortality was very high (particular in the 1800s) parents would sometimes give the deceased child’s name to their next child of the same sex. Any historian here who can either confirm this, or alternatively, set me straight?
The Ervilites?
Interesting information provided, just too distracting with guests talking over/interrupting each other. I'm not a hater nor mean disrespect.
le bon bon
Prophets….. lol.
18 minutes in and all I’ve got is that there are similarities to Daybell and that Lori & Chad were polygamists. I really like you guys but I don’t think I can do 2 hours of this.
These people sound narrow minded and quite ridiculous. 😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢