I think Darcy caught Georgiana’s elopement in time, whereas Lydia had already been shacking up in London. Plus Georgiana’s mistake was easily covered up, while Lydia’s was under the social spotlight. Nice reference to Jane Eyre there!
I think she did not elope at all. Darcy went to visit her, and she realized how much pain her elopement could have caused him, and then she told him all about it. Darcy wrote to Wickham, fired Mrs Young, and nobody knew a thing about the failed elopement, or even the relationship with Georgiana and Wickham. And a plus for discretion, she was in vacation without friends, just with servants and her governess.
One huge difference between a Common Marriage License and a Special Marriage License is the Special Marriage License allowed you to wed at anytime, anywhere. The Common Marriage License had to be used within 90-days and the marriage vows had to be completed within either the bride's or groom's parish church.
I was wondering about this! They mention getting married by special license in the movie A Hazard of Hearts (1987) but they weren't super rich, so I was wondering why they'd do that instead of a common license but this makes sense!
2 года назад+4
So basically the common license has an expiration date but the special license is a white check that you can fill whenever you see fit?
Mr Darcy is actually stated in the book to persuaded Lydia to return to her family but Lydia said she wanted to marry Wickham so he arranged it. Maybe Mr Darcy had some poor but respectable friend in mind who could have married Lydia instead and Mr Darcy could have supported them.
I think Darcy's plan was to try and make it appear that Wickham and Lydia had not lived together in London, possibly that she had been staying with her aunt & uncle all the time. They do talk about hushing it up, but it would have been hard and have put a stain on Lydia's character.
@@caroline..0505 definitely, but I think it speaks well of Mr Darcy that he gives Lydia the option, and considers that marriage to Mr Wickham could possibly be the worst option here.
@@angelicasmodel 100% This. I thought it was very good of Mr. Darcy to give Lydia the option to come home too (Without marrying Wickham). But she's the one who refused lol.
Fun fact... people are still “running away” to Scotland to get married as, in Scotland, you can get married without parental consent at the age of 16. In England and Wales you can only do this at 18 years of age.
Think of all the shacking up they can do in those 14 days. In one of the songs in Westside Story a woman tells the young girl, Maria, looking to get married that marriage is done differently than in - IIRC - Puerto Rico. In America they have the honeymoon after the wedding.
Running off to Gretna Green may sound romantic to modern audiences and Lydia, but it has a far more insidious reason especially for fortune hunters like Wickham. By marrying in Scotland outside of the purview of the Marriage Settlement Act, and more importantly, without the protection of the woman's parents, there is no marriage articles aka pre-nup signed (ya know, the articles that allowed Mrs Bennet and her daughters to at least have control over the 5000 pounds she brought into the marriage that would otherwise have automatically become the property of her husband). Therefore, if the parents of the woman have no choice but to accept the marriage, they cannot have marriage articles signed in hindsight - the woman (esp dangerous if she's an heiress) will lose control over her ENTIRE dowry / inheritance as the money will now be rightfully her husband's and he can legally throw it all away, even on his mistress, without consulting her, and she will have no legal redress available as there were no articles signed. Also, the so-called "hypocrisy" at forcing Lydia to marry Wickham and not Georgiana is false. It is stated in the book itself that Darcy at first tried to persuade Lydia to LEAVE Wickham... she was the one who refused, and the subsequent marriage negotiations were made only so Darcy can minimize the effect it had on the Bennets because Lydia REFUSED to leave Wickham. If she had agreed, they could have concocted a story to hush up the incident, even though Lydia's extremely public elopement will make such a story very implausible, with the backing of the money and power of the Darcys, the Bennets COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED without Lydia having to marry Wickham BUT SHE REFUSED.
Good point! I never thought about how Darcy would have hushed it up if Lydia had agreed to leave with him. Maybe they could have passed it off as a kidnapping?
@@cmm5542 I could see him paying someone to say that they were her chaperone- so she technically would've never been alone with him cause I think that's why Georgiana also got away from it, cause she had her governess there to watch her (even though her governess was clearly awful)
Also: Georgiana never actually ran away with Wickham. She cared too much about her brother, and didn’t want to grieve him, and ended up telling him before the elopement - at which point Darcy put a quick freaking stop to that shit.
Romantic story about Gretna Green! Preface: my brother is an amateur blacksmith and history buff, he told me this. At Gretna Green you could be married by a blacksmith. The bride and groom stand on either side of the anvil, which as a blacksmith's work is to forge metal pieces into a single object, their marriage symbolically forges their lives and hearts together as well. There are a few other traditions associated with a blacksmith marriage, but I don't remember them. My brother and I had the opportunity to visit Gretna Green and see the blacksmith shop. Super fun and very interesting!
Gretna Green is a marriage town now tbh. The smithy is still there with an anvil that they tap at the end of the ceremony. Gretna had the first person who could officiate on the Scottish side of the border (the blacksmith) and often the whole town would hide lovers from family.
That’s so interesting! The whole town must have had fun helping all the elopements. 😂 I actually have a friend who got married there a couple years ago and it was so fun to see her wedding pics online.
Darcy forced the Lydia-Wickham marriage also to protect the honour of her sisters, and by implication, as he was moving on Lizzy, his own. Honour is why Lydia's elopement was such a shock to her sisters: it reflected negatively on Lydia's upbringing and thus on their own moral character, substantially reducing their own chances for a good marriage. As Mr Collins so kindly points out: "They [Mrs Collins + Lady Catherine] agree with me in apprehending that this false step in one daughter will be injurious to the fortunes of all the others".
Lydia was a hair's breath from being sex trafficked for the rest of her life. The "fallen women" spoken about in hushes. Hence, the very real concern for her actual safety, as well as her status. It was one of the common methods to get new girls. They couldn't go back home and could easily be abandoned to a level where they had no familiarity or protection.
Yikes. That's absolutely terrifying. And I wouldn't at all put it past Wickham to abandon Lydia to that fate. At least Darcy's behaviour shows that there were actually people who still cared about girls in those situations back then.
@@cmm5542 it's also very possible with all of Mr Wickham's debts that he would have ruined Lydia and then sold her to a brothel to have some money to run away on.
@@cmm5542 Mr. Darcy helping Lidia also helped all the rest of her 4 sisters. They would most likely not have gotten a marriage proposal with both Lydia’s reputation, their social connections, and their paltry dowry. They would’ve ended up spinsters and poor.
Hey, my grandma got married when she was 13 back in the 1930s in Montana and I still don't know what the crap that was all about. And my mom found out a few years ago that her real father was her mom's teenaged brother-in-law so there was a lot of messed up crap going around. All of this just supports my argument that anyone saying they were born in the wrong time needs to rethink their life choices. Better to dress up in old-fashioned clothes and go to conventions than to actually wish you lived back in a more primitive time.
As the folks in the historical costuming community say: Vintage style, not vintage values. My great-grandmother was also married at 13 and had her first child at 14. I have yet to ask for details 💀
A few years back my family did one of those mail in genetic tests. My grandmother was married at 14 and had her first child at 15, or so we were told. The family secret that my grandmother took to her grave was revealed, she had a child the year before she was married and it was raised as her younger brother.
Shockingly some American states still allow under 16s to get married: "In Kentucky, we found a 13-year-old girl married off to a 33-year-old man, a 15-year-old girl married off to a 52-year-old man" www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/child-marriage-united-states-donna-pollard/
One of my favorite romance books by Kathleen Woodiwiss when I was a teen had a Fleet marriage. FL marries a condemned criminal to avoid marrying the man her father picked & to gain control of her dowry/inheritance; however the guards sell the husband/ML into servitude & he ends up an indentured servant on her father's plantation.
Ellie, that was done not only to save her reputation, but also aiming , by fixing the situation of Lizzie's family, to subsequently repeat his marriage proposal; otherwise, the situation would have been so heavily compromised that there was no chance to ever come up with the offer again. In other words, he had a vested interest in his choice of helping Lydia. I am not criticising him, because in any case he was by no means sure his proposal would be accepted. Per se, his act was generous, and the whole family derived benefits from it.
No, he didn’t do it with plans to re-propose to Elizabeth. He ONLY asked Lizzie again when Lady Catherine confronted her, and she refused to say she wouldn’t marry him if he asked. Darcy knew if she was still set against him, she would have just said so, and THAT is what gave him hope that he may have a better shot this time around if he asked again. He makes it clear that’s why, and states clearly that all she has to say is no and he’ll never even try again. He saved Lydia because he felt somewhat responsible, as Lizzie did: if he hadn’t hushed up what had almost happened to Georgiana, people would know what kind of man Wickham was, and Lydia likely would have been kept well away from him. Lizzie herself, since she had told no one what she knew from Darcy’s letter, also felt somewhat responsible. Darcy also did it because he still loved Lizzie, hated to see her suffer, and didn’t want her (or the rest of her sisters’) future(s) to be forever marred by Lydia’s actions.
My running commentary of your video: I never knew that's how the marriage banns works! Thanks for the insight! "Original Las Vegas" - love it! I'm poor, so marriage banns I guess. Lol.
I hear them read in my church all the time and they still give me chills - yes, banns are still a thing here in the UK. If you want to get married in the Church of England, you have to have the banns read for the 'three times of asking.' Otherwise you'll be stuck with the license deal 😄.
I think the concern that Mr. Bennet would not allow the marriage of Wickham and Lydia may not be the real reason why she wanted to (or agreed to, as the case may be) elope with Mr. Wickham. Lydia may have done it even otherwise. In the novel she comes across as a self-willed, crazy teen who found thrill and enjoyment in flouting etiquettes and social mores, and shocking people around her. She would have thought an elopement the 'coolest' adventurous thing she could do to grab attention and become (in)famous! 😉 Aside from that, there is an instance in Fanny Burney's _Camilla_ where a character is abducted to Gretna Green by a fortune-hunter and forced into marriage for the sake of her fortune. Either Jane Austen had this mind when she wrote the Georgiana and Lydia affair, or maybe such scandals were common enough in Austen's time. I also happened to read that it was a blacksmith ('anvil priest') in Gretna Green who actually officiated such marriages for money? As Miss Bingley would say, shocking! 😯
That’s a good point! She does love to be adventurous and infamous! 😂 From what I understand they were pretty common at the time. Of course, one reason that Gretna Green marriages were favored by fortune hunters is it prevented the bride’s family from establishing a marriage settlement before the wedding that would protect the bride’s money. After the wedding it was too late. Also, what is more romantic that an anvil? 😂
I think it mentions in the book that Darcy did try to persuade Lydia to leave Wickham, go back to her family, and try to patch up her reputation. But she wouldn't, so the (almost) shotgun wedding was the only option.
It also should be pointed out that it was because of the Presbyterian church in Scotland that had the more lax marriage laws, not just because it was Scotland alone.
No - it was because it was Scotland alone and had nothing to do with the church. A couple could have a legally binding but so-called "irregular marriage" without a Presbyterian or any other type of minister conducting the marriage ceremony. If a couple made a declaration before two witnesses, almost anybody had the authority to conduct the marriage ceremony.
To Ellie Dashwood, well done. As to saving the reputation of Lizzie and the rest of the Bennet girls, I find an imbalance in most of the commentary on P &P. There is generally an ease at calling Lydia's personality 'reckless,' even calling her stupid. Harsh words are not used to understand the danger faced if none of the girls were to marry. Mrs. Bennet was horrified by the impending disaster that would occur if Mr. Bennet would die before the girls were married. Yet never is this danger appreciated in the commentary about the story. Never is Lizzie's rejection of Mr. Collin's' marriage proposal deemed to be 'reckless.' Lydia's prospects for marriage near Meryton while Jane and Lizzie were still around were poor to nil. Lydia was in a horrible position. It would have been reckless for Lydia to sit around and do nothing. Before Lydia stirred the pot of fate, Jane was stuck and clueless, Lizzie was stuck, they were all stuck. And after she married, Lydia was the one who told Lizzie that Darcy was at her wedding. Lizzie, Darcy, and Lydia are the three essential personalities in P & P. Jane Austen seduces the reader with Jane's beauty, which is not essential to the story's outcome.
I think Darcy is a very honorable person and I have nothing bad to say about his character. That said, he tells Elizabeth himself when she thanks him for what he did for Lydia that he he did it for her (Elizabeth). Fixing Lydia's problem was the only way that he could ever have even a hope of marrying her. With Lydia's reputation in ruins, there would be no chance of it.
He did it for love of Lizzie, not with hopes of marrying her. He says her refusing to tell Lady Catherine she wouldn’t marry him is what makes him decide to ask her again - since he knows if she was still set against him, she’d have just said so. THAT is what gives him hope, what decides him to try again. And it happens well after the Lydia situation. Mr. Darcy is amazing BECAUSE he accept’s Lizzie’s rejection, reflects on her words, recognizes some of the truth in them, and (because he is a genuinely good person) makes genuine changes. He doesn’t do it to win her over, he does it because she’s right. He wants only to prove to her that he has taken her words to heart. When he says he did it for Lizzie, he means he did it for Lizzie. Not for himself, so that he could marry her. He genuinely did it because he cared for her, didn’t want her to be unhappy, didn’t want anything bad to happen to her or her family, and had the means to fix it for her.
My husband and I sort of eloped. We wanted to be married, but we weren’t that keen on the whole wedding nonsense and expense. So, we made a surprise visit to Orkney for my mother’s 50th birthday with my husband’s family in tow, and then, at the end of the evening, we said, “By the way, we’re getting married on Saturday”. The local registrar had been sworn to secrecy and had posted the marriage notice on the most out of the way place possible, under cover of darkness. We showed up to the office, got married and then went to the pub. We celebrated our Silver anniversary in 2019 (we did consider going back to Orkney for it, but in the end we decided for a warmer set of islands and took a Caribbean cruise instead).
My mam and dad have been together for 27 years and only got married 3 years ago, but they got married at Gretna over the traditional anvil. I'm from north east England so it's roughly a 2 hour drive from where I live. a beautiful place, although there are many beautiful places here
I know it's an old video, but I'm a new subscriber and can't resist commenting. If I lived in Regency England, I'd have been hounded out of the country. Um......because I crochet. I'm sure you know of Otavia Cox's excellent commentary series on P&P. She makes a very clear case that Wyckham was going to run away from Brighton anyway to escape debts of various sorts, including honor. Lydia was such a pushy young tart, that he thought he might as well take her along as a temporary companion, while he still aspired to marry a wealthier girl.
The morality as it applied to Lydia is the same as that applying to Maria Bertram in Mansfield Park, although playing out in different ways. Lydia was unmarried so (financial) pressure could be placed on her seducer such that Wickham married her, and to some extent Lydia recovers her reputation. By contrast Maria was already married and runs away with the unmarried Henry Crawford. Her reputation is utterly destroyed and she lives out her life in social isoliation (and I don't count her aunt as company as that must have been torture) for the rest of her life with no chance of recovering her reputation. Henry Crawford, by the double standards of the day, was probably damned by his behaviour and yet he could still re-enter society and probably hope to marry well (a girl with new money marrying up perhaps). Thanks for an interesting video.
Bands of marriage for sure, since I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be if noble blood. Another note is Mr. Darcey was I love with Elizabeth. There would be no hope in marrying her if Lidia didn’t marry.
I always thought Darcy found it easy to convince Wickham in London not only due to the offered money but that Wickham either had heard the rumours or simply realised after seeing Darcy in London that he loved Lizzy. Knowing what an upright and respectable person Darcy was Wickham probably realised it wouldn't be long till they marry. I always thought he decided if I attach myself to Lizzy's beloved family through her most gullible and easily manipulated sister I might have access to more money over the years. He probably gambled that Lizzy won't let poor Lydia starve or at least get to a social and financial point that would embarrass herself, Darcy or the other sister. Lizzy also wouldn't want to be seen as cruelly not helping her family in hard times (she would know Wickham would be quick to put those rumours around if needed) and Darcy would want to help her sisters (even the silly ones) for love of Lizzy. He was basically banking on marriage ties and social expectations and shame when it came to the Darcys for his own profit.
I knew a couple that got married at Gretna Green they were planning to get married later that year but were visiting Scotland and decided they would get married there for fun
Oh! And I do believe you were referring to Jane Eyrie at the beginning. The secret crazy wife of Mr.Rochester, locked in the tower. Her brother returns just in time to ruin their lives by spilling the beans
I think read that in the novel, Darcy tries to persuade Lydia to abandon Wickham, but she wants to marry him. So Darcy makes Wickham marry Lydia instead.
"Clandestine marriages" seem to have been a real problem, and (though I'm not a scholar of this history) it seems to have taken centuries to work out a helpful system. Without central recording or public proclamation of marriages, unscrupulous young men could engage in a series of secret marriages, then move on to the next town when they got bored and do it again. (There were instances of noble or royal men raising a family of supposed heirs, then finding them all ruled illegitimate when a previous secret marriage was uncovered.) So something really was needed to regulate and register marriages to prevent such abuses. But there always remained loopholes like Gretna Green. The better Pride and Prejudice dramatizations create additional dialogue to make clear what Austen's readers would have known instantly: that by "living in sin" with Wickham in London, Lydia is not only disgracing herself, she is reducing her sisters' marriage chances to zero -- they're all doomed.
On the east coast of the United States, couples could be married in Maryland at an earlier age than in other states, and the town of Elkton, MD was where young couples from PA, or NJ would go to get married. FWIW, I always considered 'eloping' as an unauthorized departure from some location where an individual is in the care and control of a third person, and could apply to someone who departed from a location without proper authorization. The elopement refers to the departure and travel, and not to what goes on thereafter. So a couple would elope and then get married, not run away and then elope.
One question I have is whether sisters of men who committed immorality had their reputation affected as well by it, or not at all? Like in Mansfield Park, Mary Crawford does not seem to have her marriage prospects affected at all by her brother running off with a married woman (as it's mentioned at the end of the book that she still has a lot of suitors to choose from, but is now determined to choose wisely after being told off by Edmund). Maybe her wealth played a big part in this as well though.
The effect Lydia's running off would have had on her sisters is a tad exaggerated by Mr Collins. There IS an impact, because they live in a gossipy small town with few young men. However, you are right wealth would make a difference. A London socialite could probably disassociate herself from either a brother's or sister's 'indiscretions.' In the country, it would probably be necessary to 'cut the sibling off' for it not to impact your chances. But it would have varied - not everyone in the Regency would have assumed the behaviour of one sibling meant the entire family was depraved. Only people like Lady Catherine and Mr Collins. It WOULD restrict your choices, but not remove all of them. Probably a woman with a 'rake' for a brother would be more pitied than suspected. If it was a sister you were CLOSE to (like Kitty and Lydia), it is more likely you would be assumed to have the same moral standards. Not necessarily if she was five years older than you and had her affair while you were still in school!
My family attends a very traditional Latin Mass parish in the Boise, Idaho area. They still read marriage banns before couples marry here. If I weren’t already married (we were married in the Catholic Church, but before we attended this parish), then we would also have the banns read.
We don't know that Lydia ever intended to go to Gretna Green. We just know that that was what the family originally thought that they would do, as elopement was more acceptable than immortality
In her letter to Mrs Forster she does mention going to Gretna Green and what a great surprise it will be to her family when she writes them and signs her name Lydia Wickham. So despite what Wickham persuaded her to do after they ran off together in the beginning her intentions were to get married.
@@EllieDashwood and Darcy tried really hard to get that idea out of her head but she would not back off one bit (in Mrs Gardiner' s letter) 😅 So what else was Mr. Darcy supposed to do...
Interesting series! It has been a while since I have read the book, but I seem to remember that once Darcy found Lydia and Wickham, he tried to convince her not to marry Wickham, because he knew this would be an unwise marriage. It was Lydia who insisted that she wanted to marry, and therefore, Darcy arranged to have the marriage happen. Did I remember that wrong?
You are very right indeed! :) He did try to convince her to leave her folly, but alas Lydia did not want to go. Of course, had she left Wickham all her chances at a normal life in Regency England would have been ruined. Not that she had a very normal life with him either, I suppose. lol.
This is why I always thought Mr. Darcy may have been ahead of his time to try to persuade her to leave Wickham. He was more concerned for her well being than her reputation. She had a way out, but Wickham never would.
@@chanahminuk8485 He said if she left right now with him there would be no damage to her reputation (basically, he was going to oust Wickham). But she refused, still infatuated. So had to bring about the marriage as the only way to save her and her family from ruin. Because if she stayed much longer, Wickham would tire of her and leave and she would then be damaged goods. So marriage as soon as possible was essential. I think he decided not to oust Wickham then to make the whole thing seem more credible.
@@MsJubjubbird Right. Basically she was on the cusp of having a ruined reputation but if she were to leave then the whole affair may have been able to be quieted down, written off as a youthful folly, and largely forgotten. Darcy ousting Wickham would've given credit to the thought that Lydia was taken in by him but still had good intentions herself. However by staying with him there would become no doubt that she was infact living with Wickham despite not being married to him. Once that got out and he grew tired of her Wickham would've left and she would have fallen to a life of desperation much like Colonel Brandon's first love Eliza. So in light of such a consequence enticing Wickham to marry her was the better choice.
One more reason Lydia had to marry: if they'd had sex (which they probably had, why else would he keep her around), she might have already been pregnant.
The banns are still in place today in the UK and other parts of Europe! (or a waiting period to get a marriage licenses for a civil marriage at the courthouse) You cannot just get married in much of Europe. And the banns were/are read not just the church they attended. They were read in THEIR HOME PARISHES. The idea of the bann date back to the 13th century but were codified in the 16th. The goal is to prevent invalid marriages from occurring. Because all marriages of people were publicly announced in their HOME parishes and most parishes were very small the hope was that someone would remember if the perspective bride and groom had a spouse somewhere still living or some other reason the marriage could not proceed, say the bride and groom were too closely related or an enforceable vow a celibacy (Remember! 13th century codified in 16th), etc. But the biggest issue was a preexisting marriage to a living spouse which had not been dissolved or annulled at the time of the new marriage! Apparently there was a problem of people leaving their spouses, moving some distance away and then marrying another people in their new town (the issue was mostly men abandoning wives). Not I'm not sure how much I believe that common license let you skip the waiting period, perhaps if it had statement requirements from people who have know the bride and groom for years that no legal impediment exists, say another marriage etc. (what the banns and waiting periods exist to check for). Waiting periods are pretty codified in much or European marriage laws and has only been removed in the past few decades (and NOT removed in countries like the U.K., France, and the Netherlands), I'm not sure I buy that they didn't exist in 19th century Scotland. I buy that parental permission wasn't required or that the waiting period was shorter, but the "banns" requirement existed in Scotland too and does to this day! And common license today has a public statement of intent and a waiting period in Scotland TODAY! BWT in countries the which formal public announcements and banns are still codified into law the "Speak now or forever hold your peace" isn't a joke, it's a legal requirement to check for valid objections to the marriage ie. other undissolved marriages to living spouses, the bride and groom being too closely related or an enforceable vow of celibacy (middle ages remember!). This means that if there is an objection THE CEREMONY MUST BE STOPPED, the objection cannot easily be withdrawn, and MUST BE INVESTIGATED before the wedding can proceed, even if it was a JOKE, it's a legal requirement. As a result frivolous objections result in fines and people getting sued for the cost of the wedding which now cannot occur because you made a joke!
I live in Italy and my mother-in-law is getting married soon and I remember my husband explaining the banns bit of law that they have to comply with. We got married in the USA so I had no previous experience with this law
adding, sometimes they did move away with permission from the wife. Ie. divorce really wasn't a thing. They found a case of this on "who do you think you are".
The objections part of the ceremony is a critical plot point in Jane Eyre. Church marriages were open to anyone, as they were public ceremonies. Jane and Mr. Rochester are literally at the alter and have just had the “speak now” bit announced when a strange man does so and announces that he’s already married and that his wife is still alive. The ceremony comes to a screaming halt.
My husband and I basically did the bare minimum to get married- but since our city's courthouse is on an island, we call it our "destination island wedding". In the regency era, we probably would have done the same- as regular middle class folks who didn't want to put forth extra effort or expense, we'd just do the one where the pastor reads off our intention to get married for 3 weeks and as long as no one cares, we're good to go.
My brain gets locked on the idea of the regency casino at Gretna Green. But not the casino itself but how would look regency hangover the next day with waking up in the most unexpected place.
First of all, you are looking very lovely and sophisticated in this video! I want to add to your explanation of why Lydia's shacking up with Wickham would have ruined her marriage prospects and damaged the prospects of her sisters. The assumption would be that as Lydia had put out for a man before marriage that she would be very likely to continue such behavior after marriage. Even today most men would not like that behavior in their wife. Her actions harmed her sisters because the assumption would be that they would be likely to behave as their sister had done. A lot of men would avoid taking that chance. It is only fair to say that Lydia did have the intention of getting married when she left Brighton with Wickham. How long it took for Wickham to "persuade" her to give up the idea is left to our imagination.
Agreed. I do think Mr Collins and the Meryton gossips exaggerate how much other men will assume Lydia's sisters will be just like her, though. From what I've read of the Regency, the reaction would have varied. And of course Darcy and Bingley demonstrate a more broad-minded section of society than Lady Catherine and Mr Collins! I honestly think he was trying to worry his cousins even more than the situation called for. Certainly you are correct that it would have deterred MANY prospective suitors, and the Bennet girls really could not afford to lose ANY chances. I think Lydia was ignorant and besotted enough to believe Wickham if he told her they were 'as good as' married. And there is an interesting take in the 1995 miniseries - Lydia appears more interested in 'intimacy' than Wickham who is worried about finances and seems frustrated by her attentions. Elizabeth does remark in the book that the elopement was brought about more by the strength of LYDIA'S attachment. Wickham liked the conquest, but I wonder just how interested he was in sex with Lydia, at any rate after a couple 'nights of passion' ended his interest? I think, personally, he was hanging on to Lydia not because he was still interested in sleeping with her, but more because he was hoping to be paid to return her.
@@cmm5542 I agree completely! As Mrs. Gardiner says, "Wickham, of course, wanted more than he could get..." There are many small touches like that in the 1995 P&P, which makes it my favorite version. If Darcy had not been in the picture, Wickham would have seen to it that Lydia was discovered before long. Mr. Bennet would not have paid as much as Mr. Darcy did, of course. In that case Lydia might have ended like Maria Bertram. I wonder who would have been her Mrs. Norris!
Think you are a bit hard on Hardwicke's Marriage Act of 1753 which was designed to protect young girls, especially heiresses , who might be lured away , seduced and married under-age for their money. Sometimes women thought they were married only to find it wasn't a valid legal ceremony. So the Act said that marriage could only take place in a church where you were known , in daylight with the consent of your family. If you wanted to have it elsewhere or without banns , then you needed to pay for a Common Licence ...though that still needed to be in a church and with family consent if you were under age. Or go off to Gretna Green, of course!
To be fair to him, Darcy did try to convince Lydia to 'quit her present disgraceful situation' and fall upon any friends willing to assist her. Thsi probably meant to be supported by her family again and being placed away, or if she were pregnant, secluded in some distant farmhouse. Darcy knew Wickham would not make a good husband. But Lydia refused any help, his or anyone elses. She believed she and Wickham would be married eventually and didn't care when. She kept going on and on about him to anyone who would listen and never once clocked in that she done anything wrong. In that situation, all Darcy could do to help was to expedite a marriage by bribing Wickham. Although a stink would remain, this saved Lydia's reputation and those of her sisters. Darcy and Bingley overlooked A LOT to marry Jane and Lizzie, but them having a 'girl upon the town' as a sister would kill any romantic notions. And that where Lydia was heading. Wickham had no intention of marrying her and was still hoping to marry richer elsewhere (he admits this much to Darcy). Lydia would be left alone and penniless in some seedy part of London, possibly pregnant. Her only option would have been appealing for help to the Gardiners (if she remembered their address) or sinking deeper and trying to earn money the lie down way.
That is a good question! Basically he was running away from his regiment because he had debts he couldn’t pay. Since he knew he was going to be on the run, he figured he may as well bring along Lydia, sleep with her for a while, and then ditch her when she lost her interest to him. She of course thought he was really in love with and would marry her.
@@EllieDashwood I also suspect it was bit of a power play against Lizzie (and maybe even Mr. Darcy, though I don't think at this point Wickham had reason to believe that Darcy had huge crush on Lizzie). In their last meeting, she had strongly hinted, she did not fully believe Wickham's lies anymore. Wickham is just the kind of character who would enjoy bringing her down a notch if he suspected she was starting to think ill of him (and maybe spreading that further). And Lydia offered very good way to do that. So, what's to lose: Mr. Bennet is quite passive and not the kind that has huge amount of influence so that Wickham would be vary scared to taint his daughter. Lydia was flirt and immediately up to the plan (also likely to ... put out... before actual marriage). So, revenge, sex with pretty young girl and superficially nicer looking reason to escape, compared to the debts.
Lydia was a willing bedfellow for Wickham, because of her wild nature and lack of guidance from her parents, as evidenced by her father's indifference -- other than to remark repeatedly that she was silly -- and her mother's doting attitude that she could do no wrong and Kitty could do no right. I have no doubt he made promises to Lydia that he never intended to fulfill, and if there was any loss of interest between them, it would be him losing interest in her, not the other way around. Austen notes at the end of P&P about Wickham and Lydia, that "Their manner of living, even when the restoration of peace dismissed them to a home, was unsettled in the extreme. They were always moving from place to place in quest of a cheap situation, and always spending more than they ought. His affection for her soon sunk into indifference; hers lasted a little longer; and in spite of her youth and her manners, she retained all the claims to reputation which her marriage had given her." We can surmise from this that Wickham was soon philandering again, but Lydia never cheated on him, in spite of having every good reason to. As for why Darcy would fight so hard to force Wickham into marriage, I believe there was a bit of payback on Darcy's part. He had firsthand knowledge of Wickham's careless affairs, and the potential for ruination for any girl unhappy enough to be targeted by Wickham's advances, but did nothing until it threatened someone close to him (Lizzie's connection through the actions of her sister). By forcing Wickham into marriage with a very young, very stupid girl whose only thoughts were filled with endless entertainment, Darcy was putting a padlock on Wickham's freedom and future happiness. Darcy felt very deeply that the disaster Wickham could have visited upon the Bennett family was in part his fault for not denouncing the man as a cad and a bounder much earlier, in an effort to shield his sister from scandal. Even if Wickham were to cheat on Lydia later (as we are led to believe he did), he would never find true happiness, as Darcy had found, in someone he could truly love.
I think Wickham must have heard something of Darcy's interest in Lizzie and thought that he could use Lydia to essentially blackmail her family and perhaps Darcy into getting some funds and it worked...
I'm still waiting for someone to object to the banns being read in my church - and since it's a beautiful little parish church LOTS of people get married here, and no objections have EVER been raised. My vicar makes a joke every time of diligently looking around the congregation to see if anyone has an objection, but I guess there are no Mr Rochesters in my county!
Another perfect episode! Thank you 💖 and I think I would just have a simple banns read sort of marriage haha I don't think I could afford the other two if I lived in austens day - unless I married Mr Darcy! I liked your subtle jane eyre quote there haha 💖💖
Initially, Elizabeth is quite taken with Wickam, and she still thinks Darcy is awful. Wickam seems to have a way with the ladies. He fools Elizabeth for a while, he nearly elopes with Darcy's younger sister, and then he almost gets away with condemning Lydia to a terrible fate.
Actually, in France marriage banns are still an obligation. It should be published during 10 days before the marriage in the city halls of the places where bride and groom live, and also in the city hall where their marriage will take place.
You have to think of total life expectancy back then compared to today. If people are dying between the ages of 50 and 60, you have to get married before 25 if you want to have what people then called a long marriage. The reason that the Jewish ceremony of adulthood [ the bar mitzvah ] happens at 13 or 14 is that you have to become an adult fast if you are going to die at 50.
Yes, definitely. And there was also the high infant mortality rate and dangers of childbirth - even now doctors say the healthiest time to have a first baby is between the ages of 18 and 25; so if you wait longer than that in a time period where your chance of dying in childbirth is already high, you are just risking complications, miscarriage, and stillbirths. And people needed to start having kids early if they wanted to have enough so that there was a chance of at least one surviving to adulthood, or the human race would die out! Having lots of children was the historical version of 'saving the planet' today.
A special license also lets a couple get married anywhere at any time. Depending on the year the historical romance you're reading is set in, the couple can only be married between the hours of 6 am and 8pm or 8 am and noon and inside your parish church. The other Bennet sisters (minus Lizzie) probably wouldn't have been able to get married either because other families would have felt that if Lydia ran off with a man, who's to say that the others wouldn't do the same?
Actually it would have made all of Mr Darcy's Aunt lady Catherine's objection to the marriage actually valid because of Lydia's situation. If Wickham had absolutely refuse to marry Lydia. Darcy literally could not have married Lizzie. Bingley wouldn't have been able to marry Jane either because they both have younger unmarried sisters to think of. If there was no way of sweeping this under the rug with a legitimate marriage it would have ruined the entire Bennett family. Darcy couldn't have married Lizzie and kept the honor and respect of the Pemberlly house and it would have ruined Georgiana's chances of making a good marriage. Although Darcy is an incredible man and loves Lizzie very much. He would not ruin his sister's chances like that. He is the kind of self-sacrificing guy who would have given up on Lizzy and made sure that Georgiana got to get a good marriage. Even if he never had the heart to marry anyone else. Because then Pemberly would go to one of Georgia's children.
Lydia would brag for the rest of her life that she was the first of her sisters to get married despite being the youngest. I wonder if she ever stopped being immature.
I’ve never understood Wickham’s motives for telling Lydia they were running off to get married when he had no intention of doing so. Just what was his end goal? Sex? He could get that anywhere... and we all know Lydia had no great fortune for a dowry.
He had no incentive to marry Lydia. Her family had no money and he had a lot of debt. He may have suspected that Darcy and Elizabeth were beginning to be drawn to each other and he was always jealous of Darcy. So humiliating the Bennett family would probably end any relationship they might hope for. Darcy basically paid Wickham to marry Lydia. And those two characters deserved each other.
@@jeancoughlin5490 that’s my point though it doesn’t make sense. Wickham didn’t have the foggiest idea that Lizzie and Darcy were a thing so I don’t get how that could have been a motivator. Lizzie didn’t even know at any point that Wickham could have caught wind lol. He had no reason to mess with the Bennetts.
@@AndersWatches When reading the book, I always got the impression that Wickham thought that there was money in the Bennetts. They were landed gentry, had a country estate and were regular participants in their society social scene. It would have been considered rude and vulgar to talk of money matters unless it was with a serious suitor. ,Don't forget that he tried to do the exact same thing with Georgina, then he was essentially disgraced and disowned. When he met the Bennetts, he probably thought that they were a good second prize and when he failed to charm Lizzie, he charmed Lydia instead. After all, he was a desperate man with debts so his ambitions were lowered. He was determined to force a marriage (Via scandal) However Lydia being a chatterbox that she is, revealed the actual value of her estate (It being entailed and all.) So he refused to marry her, not caring that her life and reputation were essentially ruined. She just didn't have the goods he wanted. Then Darcy stepped in...
@@Animefreakess I suppose, though I don’t think he failed to charm Lizzie. I guess he may have thought her too intelligent to be easily manipulated. I can’t remember why his marriage to Mary King didn’t happen either 🤔 it also wasn’t lost on me how his victim preference was 15 year olds. 😬 Poor Lydia.
Literally just finished listening to Jane Eyre for probably the 5th time...such a sweet, romantic novel ☺️ I love how Jane and mr Rochester describe each other
The marriage laws still differ between England and Scotland (I don't know about Wales). In England only set buildings are licensed for weddings like churches, registry offices and some hotels etc, whereas in Scotland it is the person performing the ceremony that is licensed. This is partly because in England you have to be married in a public place, I think this is so that if someone wishes to object to the wedding they can do so.
My mother eloped at 14 with a military man. Her parents thought they’d stopped it but they were too late. She lived secretly married while her husband was out of the country two years then when he csme back she announced it and they moved to Miami where he proceeded to treat her very badly. Her parents refused to take her back forcing her to live with her decision.
@@monmothma3358 I’ve met a lot of women who got married in more legitimate ways (as adults, with knowledge and consent from the parents), and the parents did the same thing… the fathers would say that it was their choice to get married, and once married they wouldn’t take them back, even if they were being abused :(
@@ludmilamaiolini6811 That's awful. I guess that's when it's important for society to have alternative arrangements for support, like crisis shelters, financial support or easy access to education, making it easier for women to leave an abusive man and make it on their own. Unfortunately, you don't choose your parents, so there'll always be some who'll be pitiless like that.
Probably not if she believed it. But like plenty of other teens, she probably had WAY too much naive faith in her own charms and would have been convinced she could get him to marry her eventually even if she knew that wasn't his original intention. Girls still fall into that trap with their boyfriends nowadays far too often. 🙁
2 года назад+1
There's a reason for that low age in marriage. It's to prevent arranged marriages and children/teens getting their inheritance wasted before they can lay hands on it. It also prevents parents manipulating their kids in engaging age (people got engaged earlier back then) to get engaged or not at their parents/tutors' benefit over the person who's getting married. It also prevented some... very nasty abuse. Basically, it revolves around inheritance and arranged marriage in childhood.
Mr. Wickham never intended to marry Lydia, or he would have just gone to Gretna Green with her. . It was only Mr. Darcy's money that changed the situation.
Thank you, I didn't get if from the novel! Could you please explain one more thing. In Mansfield park there is a parsonage for Edmund in Mansfield park which is meant to be his, but instead is goes to Mr. Grant. Why? Sir Thomas mentions that it had to do something with the bad behavior and probably gaming debts of his eldest son (I forgot his name). But i didn't understand how that is connected at all.
That is a great question! I will definitely add it to my list of future video ideas! Put very simply, though, is that Sir Thomas had something called patronage in the church. He could decide who got to live in the parsonages on his estates and be the local clergymen. This went far beyond the house, though, because whoever he appointed as a clergyman also got to collect tithes. That tithe income was called a “living.” Basically, Sir Thomas could select men for these posts that came with a job, house, and income. These appointments could hypothetically last the rest of the appointee’s life (which we see because it lasts until Dr. Grant dies). Because these were such important posts that came with significant financial benefits, it was common for families to give these to their sons (like Edmund). But a family could also sell the appointment for money. Basically, it was a “give me money, and I’ll set you up in this parsonage the rest of your life” type deal. Because of the eldest son’s bad behavior, Sir Thomas needed extra money. And so, instead of keeping this valuable appointment for Edmund, he raised funds by selling it to Dr. Grant. Now, this selling would be for the appointment. Sir Thomas would still own the patronage and ability to appoint others after Dr. Grant dies, which is why after Dr. Grant dies, Sir Thomas is then able to appoint Edmund to it after all.
@@EllieDashwood wow, now I see, Sir Thomas sold the living to Dr Grant. There is so much that we miss from the books just because our reality nowadays is so different. Thank you for your reply! And I would love a video on clergy and parsonages!
A question about the scope of "Classical Literature". What time frame do you deal with? Any Epic of Gilgamesh, Gospel of St. John, Beowulf, Sir Gwain and the Green Knight, The Pilgrims Progress, Macbeth, Robinson Caruso, Great Expectations, The Jungle Book, Heart of Darkness.... What language/nationality? Any Alexander Dumas, Miguel Cervantes, Leo Tolstoy...
The marriage laws have always been more relaxed in Scotland than in England for centuries. Those who were in their teens or twenties who just could not wait until the appropriate age to get married in England have always been eloping or at least sprinting to this famous Scottish border town to get married.
Just to nitpick, at the time "elope" just meant run away, not the act of marriage per modern terminology... and it's even a point made in the novel that they have eloped but may not marry.
@@mch12311969 I agree. Lydia let it "Slip" that Darcy arranged the marriage, She was sworn not to tell anyone so naturally, she tells everyone. I always suspected that Mr. Darcy helped out because the social death of Lydia would taint the whole family, making his much-wanted courtship and marriage to Lizzie to be impossible. AND the marriage of his good friend Mr. Bingley to Lizzie's sister would also be impossible.
"Elope" cannot be used in the passive form (as you do several times in this video). It means to run away as a couple without the girl's parents' permission.
Have you ever done a video comparing Mr. and Mrs. Bennet's marriage with Mr. and Mrs. Collins marriage? One objection, I think, that Elizabeth had to Charlotte marrying Mr. Collins is that it would be another marriage where one could not respect the other. Elizabeth grew up with that in her house with her parents, so it's understandable that she would't want her best friend to have that same situation. Granted, as Elizabeth said, viewed in a prudential light, it was a good match for Charlotte given her age, lack of dowry, etc. However, the very essence of both marriages is the lack of respect of one for the other.
Prior to 1753 all you needed to be married in England was SAY you were married. No priest, license,, witnesses or any kind of ceremony was required. Just call each other husband and wife and it was done. Which is the reason Henry VIII fussed so much over his wives former crushes when he wanted to divorce them. If they had ever said anything like "I want to be with you forever" to a boy that could be interpreted as a marriage vow. Thus his wife was a bigamist and he could get an annulment. This also made the line between being married and engaged very blurry.
If I were a person in Regency England, I’d probably get the bands read at church, but if I were allowed to be as chaotic as I am in modern times, I’d run away to Gretna Green! Was there anything particularly scandalously about being of age and engaged and *choosing* to elope to Gretna Green instead of doing one of the other options available?
@@carmenaguado492 Oh, interesting! For a second I forgot that ✨the eyes of society✨ would probably extend to choosing to elope just for funsies, if Gretna Green had such a reputation.
Hmmmmm.... assuming that I (and more importantly, my parents) maintained roughly the same social class as in the modern era, I would peg myself riiiiiight at the border between getting the banns read and getting a common license. It would probably depend on my husband. Regardless, I highly doubt I would be getting married in Gretna Green unless I happened to live there. I’m WAAAAAY too much of a goody-two-shoes to pull off that kind of a stunt!
Mr Darcy's mother was nobility. Her father was an earl and now Darcy's uncle (Colonel Fitzwilliam's father) carries the title. While his aunt is still aristocracy. So perhaps he could get a special license through those connections. Mr Palmer and Charlotte probably had one, with her father being nobility and him being very wealthy and him aiming to be an MP.
Charlotte Palmer's father was not nobility - her mother's married title is Mrs Jennings, not Lady . Her sister is only Lady Middleton because she married SIR John Middleton, who was I think a knight.
From what I remember in school even if you opted for a licence you still had the banns read in your local church. The Reverend or Priests would often use full names and titles, relevant grand connections or just boasting on your behalf when announcing those of Well-bred classes (probably with a generous donation in their pocket too). Whereas for the riff-raff it was just Farmer John Smith and Maggie Jones the Bakers daughter are wanting to wed in three weeks, goodbye. Obviously, if you were for some reason in a rush (oops she's pregnant and all that) you didn't, but was usually still done. It was as with everything way to not only announce you managed to snag someone it also to remind and show off to everyone in your community each week when they were all trapped... er I mean in attendance at church on a Sunday as all good Christians of the time should be. You can bet your boots Mrs Bennet made sure Lizzy and Jane's weddings were announced, especially as it would have been seen as a real rise in the families connections, fame and a good way to make up for any gossip and local looking down upon the family due to Lydia scandal. Even today we still have a version of the Banns. I got married by the registrar in a Great house (so no church), when we went to our licence interview a few months before (you show your IDs, answer various questions, declare your both free to marry and pay your fees). We were told we had to post banns, they would post it in either the local county paper or on the Council public notice board for three weeks for us (can't remember which) it was included in the feed and not optional. They explained it was so anyone who had a legitimate reason to object had the time to do so. We were advised we could also have them read at our local church as well, which is still very common here for couples who have a church ceremony though some churches opt to use the parish weekly newsletter for announcements.
My friends got married in Gretna Green, because the now husband was an immigrant. So these laws are still working and still useful for people, who just want to get married.
I've always wondered why Mr Wickham married Lydia... I'm sure he knew she and her sister's weren't of the best means so he wouldn't get what he would have gotten from Georgiana had he been able to marry her.
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I got married in Gretna Green. Very romantic, though we didn't elope, I wasn't 15 and my husband is definitely not Mr Wickham 😊
That is so cool! Also, good job not choosing Wickham at 15. lol.
Good thing
I trust you're not 15 nor did you elope. But I cannot be sure you didn't marry Mr. Whickham...
So sweet! I'd like to get married there myself if I could.
Glad to hear all of those things.
I think Darcy caught Georgiana’s elopement in time, whereas Lydia had already been shacking up in London. Plus Georgiana’s mistake was easily covered up, while Lydia’s was under the social spotlight. Nice reference to Jane Eyre there!
I think she did not elope at all. Darcy went to visit her, and she realized how much pain her elopement could have caused him, and then she told him all about it. Darcy wrote to Wickham, fired Mrs Young, and nobody knew a thing about the failed elopement, or even the relationship with Georgiana and Wickham. And a plus for discretion, she was in vacation without friends, just with servants and her governess.
One huge difference between a Common Marriage License and a Special Marriage License is the Special Marriage License allowed you to wed at anytime, anywhere. The Common Marriage License had to be used within 90-days and the marriage vows had to be completed within either the bride's or groom's parish church.
Thank you! I’ve been wondering what the benefits were
I was wondering about this! They mention getting married by special license in the movie A Hazard of Hearts (1987) but they weren't super rich, so I was wondering why they'd do that instead of a common license but this makes sense!
So basically the common license has an expiration date but the special license is a white check that you can fill whenever you see fit?
So, with special license they could marry in some fancier church or cathedral, if they wanted.
Mr Darcy is actually stated in the book to persuaded Lydia to return to her family but Lydia said she wanted to marry Wickham so he arranged it. Maybe Mr Darcy had some poor but respectable friend in mind who could have married Lydia instead and Mr Darcy could have supported them.
I think Darcy's plan was to try and make it appear that Wickham and Lydia had not lived together in London, possibly that she had been staying with her aunt & uncle all the time. They do talk about hushing it up, but it would have been hard and have put a stain on Lydia's character.
@@caroline..0505 definitely, but I think it speaks well of Mr Darcy that he gives Lydia the option, and considers that marriage to Mr Wickham could possibly be the worst option here.
@@angelicasmodel 100% This. I thought it was very good of Mr. Darcy to give Lydia the option to come home too (Without marrying Wickham). But she's the one who refused lol.
Fun fact... people are still “running away” to Scotland to get married as, in Scotland, you can get married without parental consent at the age of 16. In England and Wales you can only do this at 18 years of age.
Wow! All these poor 16 year olds need to learn from Lydia! 😳
@@EllieDashwood still got to have a 14 day waiting period though.
Think of all the shacking up they can do in those 14 days. In one of the songs in Westside Story a woman tells the young girl, Maria, looking to get married that marriage is done differently than in - IIRC - Puerto Rico. In America they have the honeymoon after the wedding.
I got married in Gretna - I was 30 though!!
PLEASE tell me the other person can’t be over 18
Running off to Gretna Green may sound romantic to modern audiences and Lydia, but it has a far more insidious reason especially for fortune hunters like Wickham. By marrying in Scotland outside of the purview of the Marriage Settlement Act, and more importantly, without the protection of the woman's parents, there is no marriage articles aka pre-nup signed (ya know, the articles that allowed Mrs Bennet and her daughters to at least have control over the 5000 pounds she brought into the marriage that would otherwise have automatically become the property of her husband). Therefore, if the parents of the woman have no choice but to accept the marriage, they cannot have marriage articles signed in hindsight - the woman (esp dangerous if she's an heiress) will lose control over her ENTIRE dowry / inheritance as the money will now be rightfully her husband's and he can legally throw it all away, even on his mistress, without consulting her, and she will have no legal redress available as there were no articles signed.
Also, the so-called "hypocrisy" at forcing Lydia to marry Wickham and not Georgiana is false. It is stated in the book itself that Darcy at first tried to persuade Lydia to LEAVE Wickham... she was the one who refused, and the subsequent marriage negotiations were made only so Darcy can minimize the effect it had on the Bennets because Lydia REFUSED to leave Wickham. If she had agreed, they could have concocted a story to hush up the incident, even though Lydia's extremely public elopement will make such a story very implausible, with the backing of the money and power of the Darcys, the Bennets COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED without Lydia having to marry Wickham BUT SHE REFUSED.
Good point! I never thought about how Darcy would have hushed it up if Lydia had agreed to leave with him. Maybe they could have passed it off as a kidnapping?
@@cmm5542 I could see him paying someone to say that they were her chaperone- so she technically would've never been alone with him cause I think that's why Georgiana also got away from it, cause she had her governess there to watch her (even though her governess was clearly awful)
@@victoria139 That's a good point.
@@cmm5542 even if kidnapped, that would have still ruined Lydia’s reputation.
Also: Georgiana never actually ran away with Wickham. She cared too much about her brother, and didn’t want to grieve him, and ended up telling him before the elopement - at which point Darcy put a quick freaking stop to that shit.
Romantic story about Gretna Green! Preface: my brother is an amateur blacksmith and history buff, he told me this.
At Gretna Green you could be married by a blacksmith. The bride and groom stand on either side of the anvil, which as a blacksmith's work is to forge metal pieces into a single object, their marriage symbolically forges their lives and hearts together as well.
There are a few other traditions associated with a blacksmith marriage, but I don't remember them. My brother and I had the opportunity to visit Gretna Green and see the blacksmith shop. Super fun and very interesting!
Wow that's so cool!!
ohh I just googled Gretna Green and saw all of these pictures of weddings at a blacksmith's place, I understand better now!
Gretna Green is a marriage town now tbh. The smithy is still there with an anvil that they tap at the end of the ceremony. Gretna had the first person who could officiate on the Scottish side of the border (the blacksmith) and often the whole town would hide lovers from family.
That’s so interesting! The whole town must have had fun helping all the elopements. 😂 I actually have a friend who got married there a couple years ago and it was so fun to see her wedding pics online.
Darcy forced the Lydia-Wickham marriage also to protect the honour of her sisters, and by implication, as he was moving on Lizzy, his own.
Honour is why Lydia's elopement was such a shock to her sisters: it reflected negatively on Lydia's upbringing and thus on their own moral character, substantially reducing their own chances for a good marriage. As Mr Collins so kindly points out: "They [Mrs Collins + Lady Catherine] agree with me in apprehending that this false step in one daughter will be injurious to the fortunes of all the others".
Lydia was a hair's breath from being sex trafficked for the rest of her life. The "fallen women" spoken about in hushes. Hence, the very real concern for her actual safety, as well as her status. It was one of the common methods to get new girls. They couldn't go back home and could easily be abandoned to a level where they had no familiarity or protection.
Yikes. That's absolutely terrifying. And I wouldn't at all put it past Wickham to abandon Lydia to that fate.
At least Darcy's behaviour shows that there were actually people who still cared about girls in those situations back then.
@@cmm5542 it's also very possible with all of Mr Wickham's debts that he would have ruined Lydia and then sold her to a brothel to have some money to run away on.
@@cmm5542 Mr. Darcy helping Lidia also helped all the rest of her 4 sisters. They would most likely not have gotten a marriage proposal with both Lydia’s reputation, their social connections, and their paltry dowry. They would’ve ended up spinsters and poor.
Hey, my grandma got married when she was 13 back in the 1930s in Montana and I still don't know what the crap that was all about. And my mom found out a few years ago that her real father was her mom's teenaged brother-in-law so there was a lot of messed up crap going around. All of this just supports my argument that anyone saying they were born in the wrong time needs to rethink their life choices. Better to dress up in old-fashioned clothes and go to conventions than to actually wish you lived back in a more primitive time.
I have a great aunt who was married when she was 13, but I don't know the background.
As the folks in the historical costuming community say: Vintage style, not vintage values. My great-grandmother was also married at 13 and had her first child at 14. I have yet to ask for details 💀
A few years back my family did one of those mail in genetic tests. My grandmother was married at 14 and had her first child at 15, or so we were told. The family secret that my grandmother took to her grave was revealed, she had a child the year before she was married and it was raised as her younger brother.
Shockingly some American states still allow under 16s to get married:
"In Kentucky, we found a 13-year-old girl married off to a 33-year-old man, a 15-year-old girl married off to a 52-year-old man"
www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/child-marriage-united-states-donna-pollard/
@@alexwright4930 Holy crap
It also stopped what were known as Fleet Marriages, where a woman marries a condemned man, he goes to the gallows, & she's a widow
Wow! That's so interesting!
Non-criminals also had Fleet Marriages because they couldn’t afford to marry/ there were other issues to a couples’ marriage...
One of my favorite romance books by Kathleen Woodiwiss when I was a teen had a Fleet marriage. FL marries a condemned criminal to avoid marrying the man her father picked & to gain control of her dowry/inheritance; however the guards sell the husband/ML into servitude & he ends up an indentured servant on her father's plantation.
@@gayzell850 I loved "Shanna". That was one of the first epic sized romance novels I ever read. I have it in my NOOK library
Ellie, that was done not only to save her reputation, but also aiming , by fixing the situation of Lizzie's family, to subsequently repeat his marriage proposal; otherwise, the situation would have been so heavily compromised that there was no chance to ever come up with the offer again. In other words, he had a vested interest in his choice of helping Lydia. I am not criticising him, because in any case he was by no means sure his proposal would be accepted. Per se, his act was generous, and the whole family derived benefits from it.
No, he didn’t do it with plans to re-propose to Elizabeth. He ONLY asked Lizzie again when Lady Catherine confronted her, and she refused to say she wouldn’t marry him if he asked. Darcy knew if she was still set against him, she would have just said so, and THAT is what gave him hope that he may have a better shot this time around if he asked again. He makes it clear that’s why, and states clearly that all she has to say is no and he’ll never even try again.
He saved Lydia because he felt somewhat responsible, as Lizzie did: if he hadn’t hushed up what had almost happened to Georgiana, people would know what kind of man Wickham was, and Lydia likely would have been kept well away from him. Lizzie herself, since she had told no one what she knew from Darcy’s letter, also felt somewhat responsible.
Darcy also did it because he still loved Lizzie, hated to see her suffer, and didn’t want her (or the rest of her sisters’) future(s) to be forever marred by Lydia’s actions.
My running commentary of your video:
I never knew that's how the marriage banns works! Thanks for the insight!
"Original Las Vegas" - love it!
I'm poor, so marriage banns I guess. Lol.
I think marriage banns have a sort of romance about them!
Even if I could afford the license I am careful with money and don't have a scandalous background so I would do the banns
I hear them read in my church all the time and they still give me chills - yes, banns are still a thing here in the UK. If you want to get married in the Church of England, you have to have the banns read for the 'three times of asking.' Otherwise you'll be stuck with the license deal 😄.
I think the concern that Mr. Bennet would not allow the marriage of Wickham and Lydia may not be the real reason why she wanted to (or agreed to, as the case may be) elope with Mr. Wickham. Lydia may have done it even otherwise. In the novel she comes across as a self-willed, crazy teen who found thrill and enjoyment in flouting etiquettes and social mores, and shocking people around her. She would have thought an elopement the 'coolest' adventurous thing she could do to grab attention and become (in)famous! 😉
Aside from that, there is an instance in Fanny Burney's _Camilla_ where a character is abducted to Gretna Green by a fortune-hunter and forced into marriage for the sake of her fortune. Either Jane Austen had this mind when she wrote the Georgiana and Lydia affair, or maybe such scandals were common enough in Austen's time.
I also happened to read that it was a blacksmith ('anvil priest') in Gretna Green who actually officiated such marriages for money?
As Miss Bingley would say, shocking! 😯
That’s a good point! She does love to be adventurous and infamous! 😂
From what I understand they were pretty common at the time. Of course, one reason that Gretna Green marriages were favored by fortune hunters is it prevented the bride’s family from establishing a marriage settlement before the wedding that would protect the bride’s money. After the wedding it was too late.
Also, what is more romantic that an anvil? 😂
That was always my take too.
It was a blacksmith, my brother got married there and they tap the anvil at the conclusion of the service (they also have lots of old dresses).
@@Lekjih So the anvil priest is still in business? Sounds like a fun and memorable way to get married! 😃
12 and 14-year-olds getting married absolutely blows my mind. Love your lip color + pearls here!
I think it mentions in the book that Darcy did try to persuade Lydia to leave Wickham, go back to her family, and try to patch up her reputation. But she wouldn't, so the (almost) shotgun wedding was the only option.
It also should be pointed out that it was because of the Presbyterian church in Scotland that had the more lax marriage laws, not just because it was Scotland alone.
Wow, that definitely makes sense!
No - it was because it was Scotland alone and had nothing to do with the church. A couple could have a legally binding but so-called "irregular marriage" without a Presbyterian or any other type of minister conducting the marriage ceremony. If a couple made a declaration before two witnesses, almost anybody had the authority to conduct the marriage ceremony.
@@Alan_Mac Which I believe used to be a common law marriage in England before Lord Hardwicke’s Avt
I went to Gretna Green last time I was in Scotland just to check it out because of P&P. Just missed a couple that got married there!
haha same here! I went there with my Mum and we visited the gift shop, but didn't see a couple getting married either. But it's a lovely place!
Thank you, Ellie, for your clear explanation of Lydia's greatest folly.
Mr. Darcy didn't want Elizabeth's reputation to be compromised by Lydia's immorality if he could prevent it, because he still wanted to marry Lizzie.
To Ellie Dashwood, well done. As to saving the reputation of Lizzie and the rest of the Bennet girls, I find an imbalance in most of the commentary on P &P. There is generally an ease at calling Lydia's personality 'reckless,' even calling her stupid. Harsh words are not used to understand the danger faced if none of the girls were to marry. Mrs. Bennet was horrified by the impending disaster that would occur if Mr. Bennet would die before the girls were married. Yet never is this danger appreciated in the commentary about the story. Never is Lizzie's rejection of Mr. Collin's' marriage proposal deemed to be 'reckless.'
Lydia's prospects for marriage near Meryton while Jane and Lizzie were still around were poor to nil. Lydia was in a horrible position. It would have been reckless for Lydia to sit around and do nothing. Before Lydia stirred the pot of fate, Jane was stuck and clueless, Lizzie was stuck, they were all stuck. And after she married, Lydia was the one who told Lizzie that Darcy was at her wedding. Lizzie, Darcy, and Lydia are the three essential personalities in P & P.
Jane Austen seduces the reader with Jane's beauty, which is not essential to the story's outcome.
I think Darcy is a very honorable person and I have nothing bad to say about his character. That said, he tells Elizabeth himself when she thanks him for what he did for Lydia that he he did it for her (Elizabeth). Fixing Lydia's problem was the only way that he could ever have even a hope of marrying her. With Lydia's reputation in ruins, there would be no chance of it.
He did it for love of Lizzie, not with hopes of marrying her.
He says her refusing to tell Lady Catherine she wouldn’t marry him is what makes him decide to ask her again - since he knows if she was still set against him, she’d have just said so.
THAT is what gives him hope, what decides him to try again.
And it happens well after the Lydia situation.
Mr. Darcy is amazing BECAUSE he accept’s Lizzie’s rejection, reflects on her words, recognizes some of the truth in them, and (because he is a genuinely good person) makes genuine changes. He doesn’t do it to win her over, he does it because she’s right. He wants only to prove to her that he has taken her words to heart.
When he says he did it for Lizzie, he means he did it for Lizzie. Not for himself, so that he could marry her. He genuinely did it because he cared for her, didn’t want her to be unhappy, didn’t want anything bad to happen to her or her family, and had the means to fix it for her.
My husband and I sort of eloped. We wanted to be married, but we weren’t that keen on the whole wedding nonsense and expense. So, we made a surprise visit to Orkney for my mother’s 50th birthday with my husband’s family in tow, and then, at the end of the evening, we said, “By the way, we’re getting married on Saturday”. The local registrar had been sworn to secrecy and had posted the marriage notice on the most out of the way place possible, under cover of darkness. We showed up to the office, got married and then went to the pub. We celebrated our Silver anniversary in 2019 (we did consider going back to Orkney for it, but in the end we decided for a warmer set of islands and took a Caribbean cruise instead).
I love this story.
My mam and dad have been together for 27 years and only got married 3 years ago, but they got married at Gretna over the traditional anvil. I'm from north east England so it's roughly a 2 hour drive from where I live. a beautiful place, although there are many beautiful places here
Hi Kate. Yes, the North East does have lovely places to go to.
Definitely have the bands read. My husband and I had a very ‘common’ wedding: ceremony in our home church, food and dancing with nothing fancy.
I know it's an old video, but I'm a new subscriber and can't resist commenting. If I lived in Regency England, I'd have been hounded out of the country. Um......because I crochet.
I'm sure you know of Otavia Cox's excellent commentary series on P&P. She makes a very clear case that Wyckham was going to run away from Brighton anyway to escape debts of various sorts, including honor. Lydia was such a pushy young tart, that he thought he might as well take her along as a temporary companion, while he still aspired to marry a wealthier girl.
The morality as it applied to Lydia is the same as that applying to Maria Bertram in Mansfield Park, although playing out in different ways. Lydia was unmarried so (financial) pressure could be placed on her seducer such that Wickham married her, and to some extent Lydia recovers her reputation. By contrast Maria was already married and runs away with the unmarried Henry Crawford. Her reputation is utterly destroyed and she lives out her life in social isoliation (and I don't count her aunt as company as that must have been torture) for the rest of her life with no chance of recovering her reputation. Henry Crawford, by the double standards of the day, was probably damned by his behaviour and yet he could still re-enter society and probably hope to marry well (a girl with new money marrying up perhaps). Thanks for an interesting video.
Great points! Thank you!
Bands of marriage for sure, since I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be if noble blood.
Another note is Mr. Darcey was I love with Elizabeth. There would be no hope in marrying her if Lidia didn’t marry.
Marriage banns not bands.
They would have to be read it in church on three Sundays
Look it up
Lidia provided an excuse for Darcy to give his aunt. He had to marry lizzie because it was his fault he did not tell them about wickham.
I always thought Darcy found it easy to convince Wickham in London not only due to the offered money but that Wickham either had heard the rumours or simply realised after seeing Darcy in London that he loved Lizzy. Knowing what an upright and respectable person Darcy was Wickham probably realised it wouldn't be long till they marry.
I always thought he decided if I attach myself to Lizzy's beloved family through her most gullible and easily manipulated sister I might have access to more money over the years.
He probably gambled that Lizzy won't let poor Lydia starve or at least get to a social and financial point that would embarrass herself, Darcy or the other sister. Lizzy also wouldn't want to be seen as cruelly not helping her family in hard times (she would know Wickham would be quick to put those rumours around if needed) and Darcy would want to help her sisters (even the silly ones) for love of Lizzy. He was basically banking on marriage ties and social expectations and shame when it came to the Darcys for his own profit.
I´ll common Licence since special licence, also was a rush wedding, and I Live in Regency era I love to make the big fuss about it
I knew a couple that got married at Gretna Green they were planning to get married later that year but were visiting Scotland and decided they would get married there for fun
I aspired to be a "happy little married people"
Ellie, how are you SO CUTE 😂❤
Oh! And I do believe you were referring to Jane Eyrie at the beginning. The secret crazy wife of Mr.Rochester, locked in the tower. Her brother returns just in time to ruin their lives by spilling the beans
Having just reread P& P recently and wondering why the emphasis on Scotland, this video really helped
I think read that in the novel, Darcy tries to persuade Lydia to abandon Wickham, but she wants to marry him. So Darcy makes Wickham marry Lydia instead.
Your videos have allowed me to get so much more out of historical books and movies and I really appreciate that. 🧡💜
You still have the banns read in the UK if you are having a church wedding. It's lovely hearing your banns being read!
I love this video best of all your videos. You are very respectful to the morality of the time. Thanks for the great info 😊
8:00 Also, Lydia really does consistently WANT to marry Wickham. Georgiana's desire for Wickham is relatively short lived.
Georianna's short lived only because her brother stopped her elopement and took her away from the situation.
"Clandestine marriages" seem to have been a real problem, and (though I'm not a scholar of this history) it seems to have taken centuries to work out a helpful system. Without central recording or public proclamation of marriages, unscrupulous young men could engage in a series of secret marriages, then move on to the next town when they got bored and do it again. (There were instances of noble or royal men raising a family of supposed heirs, then finding them all ruled illegitimate when a previous secret marriage was uncovered.) So something really was needed to regulate and register marriages to prevent such abuses. But there always remained loopholes like Gretna Green. The better Pride and Prejudice dramatizations create additional dialogue to make clear what Austen's readers would have known instantly: that by "living in sin" with Wickham in London, Lydia is not only disgracing herself, she is reducing her sisters' marriage chances to zero -- they're all doomed.
On the east coast of the United States, couples could be married in Maryland at an earlier age than in other states, and the town of Elkton, MD was where young couples from PA, or NJ would go to get married. FWIW, I always considered 'eloping' as an unauthorized departure from some location where an individual is in the care and control of a third person, and could apply to someone who departed from a location without proper authorization. The elopement refers to the departure and travel, and not to what goes on thereafter. So a couple would elope and then get married, not run away and then elope.
One of the reason Scotland still allowed marriage at 14 years of age may be because of the 40 years life expectancy...
2:21 Jane Eyre. I love the movies and I started reading the book😊
I want to know what Lady Catherine meant when she told Lady Dashwood, “You have a small garden.”?
One question I have is whether sisters of men who committed immorality had their reputation affected as well by it, or not at all? Like in Mansfield Park, Mary Crawford does not seem to have her marriage prospects affected at all by her brother running off with a married woman (as it's mentioned at the end of the book that she still has a lot of suitors to choose from, but is now determined to choose wisely after being told off by Edmund). Maybe her wealth played a big part in this as well though.
The effect Lydia's running off would have had on her sisters is a tad exaggerated by Mr Collins. There IS an impact, because they live in a gossipy small town with few young men. However, you are right wealth would make a difference.
A London socialite could probably disassociate herself from either a brother's or sister's 'indiscretions.' In the country, it would probably be necessary to 'cut the sibling off' for it not to impact your chances. But it would have varied - not everyone in the Regency would have assumed the behaviour of one sibling meant the entire family was depraved. Only people like Lady Catherine and Mr Collins. It WOULD restrict your choices, but not remove all of them.
Probably a woman with a 'rake' for a brother would be more pitied than suspected. If it was a sister you were CLOSE to (like Kitty and Lydia), it is more likely you would be assumed to have the same moral standards. Not necessarily if she was five years older than you and had her affair while you were still in school!
@@cmm5542 Very interesting, thanks for your answer!
I have been there on my honeymoon. Very pittoresc, but a bit touristic. But sweet, happy I have been there
My family attends a very traditional Latin Mass parish in the Boise, Idaho area. They still read marriage banns before couples marry here. If I weren’t already married (we were married in the Catholic Church, but before we attended this parish), then we would also have the banns read.
We don't know that Lydia ever intended to go to Gretna Green. We just know that that was what the family originally thought that they would do, as elopement was more acceptable than immortality
Immorality!!
In her letter to Mrs Forster she does mention going to Gretna Green and what a great surprise it will be to her family when she writes them and signs her name Lydia Wickham. So despite what Wickham persuaded her to do after they ran off together in the beginning her intentions were to get married.
Exactly! She imagined marriage. 💍
@@EllieDashwood and Darcy tried really hard to get that idea out of her head but she would not back off one bit (in Mrs Gardiner' s letter) 😅
So what else was Mr. Darcy supposed to do...
Interesting series! It has been a while since I have read the book, but I seem to remember that once Darcy found Lydia and Wickham, he tried to convince her not to marry Wickham, because he knew this would be an unwise marriage. It was Lydia who insisted that she wanted to marry, and therefore, Darcy arranged to have the marriage happen. Did I remember that wrong?
You are very right indeed! :) He did try to convince her to leave her folly, but alas Lydia did not want to go. Of course, had she left Wickham all her chances at a normal life in Regency England would have been ruined. Not that she had a very normal life with him either, I suppose. lol.
This is why I always thought Mr. Darcy may have been ahead of his time to try to persuade her to leave Wickham. He was more concerned for her well being than her reputation. She had a way out, but Wickham never would.
@@chanahminuk8485 He said if she left right now with him there would be no damage to her reputation (basically, he was going to oust Wickham). But she refused, still infatuated. So had to bring about the marriage as the only way to save her and her family from ruin. Because if she stayed much longer, Wickham would tire of her and leave and she would then be damaged goods. So marriage as soon as possible was essential. I think he decided not to oust Wickham then to make the whole thing seem more credible.
@@MsJubjubbird Right. Basically she was on the cusp of having a ruined reputation but if she were to leave then the whole affair may have been able to be quieted down, written off as a youthful folly, and largely forgotten. Darcy ousting Wickham would've given credit to the thought that Lydia was taken in by him but still had good intentions herself. However by staying with him there would become no doubt that she was infact living with Wickham despite not being married to him. Once that got out and he grew tired of her Wickham would've left and she would have fallen to a life of desperation much like Colonel Brandon's first love Eliza. So in light of such a consequence enticing Wickham to marry her was the better choice.
One more reason Lydia had to marry: if they'd had sex (which they probably had, why else would he keep her around), she might have already been pregnant.
The banns are still in place today in the UK and other parts of Europe! (or a waiting period to get a marriage licenses for a civil marriage at the courthouse) You cannot just get married in much of Europe. And the banns were/are read not just the church they attended. They were read in THEIR HOME PARISHES. The idea of the bann date back to the 13th century but were codified in the 16th. The goal is to prevent invalid marriages from occurring. Because all marriages of people were publicly announced in their HOME parishes and most parishes were very small the hope was that someone would remember if the perspective bride and groom had a spouse somewhere still living or some other reason the marriage could not proceed, say the bride and groom were too closely related or an enforceable vow a celibacy (Remember! 13th century codified in 16th), etc. But the biggest issue was a preexisting marriage to a living spouse which had not been dissolved or annulled at the time of the new marriage! Apparently there was a problem of people leaving their spouses, moving some distance away and then marrying another people in their new town (the issue was mostly men abandoning wives).
Not I'm not sure how much I believe that common license let you skip the waiting period, perhaps if it had statement requirements from people who have know the bride and groom for years that no legal impediment exists, say another marriage etc. (what the banns and waiting periods exist to check for). Waiting periods are pretty codified in much or European marriage laws and has only been removed in the past few decades (and NOT removed in countries like the U.K., France, and the Netherlands), I'm not sure I buy that they didn't exist in 19th century Scotland. I buy that parental permission wasn't required or that the waiting period was shorter, but the "banns" requirement existed in Scotland too and does to this day! And common license today has a public statement of intent and a waiting period in Scotland TODAY! BWT in countries the which formal public announcements and banns are still codified into law the "Speak now or forever hold your peace" isn't a joke, it's a legal requirement to check for valid objections to the marriage ie. other undissolved marriages to living spouses, the bride and groom being too closely related or an enforceable vow of celibacy (middle ages remember!). This means that if there is an objection THE CEREMONY MUST BE STOPPED, the objection cannot easily be withdrawn, and MUST BE INVESTIGATED before the wedding can proceed, even if it was a JOKE, it's a legal requirement. As a result frivolous objections result in fines and people getting sued for the cost of the wedding which now cannot occur because you made a joke!
I live in Italy and my mother-in-law is getting married soon and I remember my husband explaining the banns bit of law that they have to comply with. We got married in the USA so I had no previous experience with this law
adding, sometimes they did move away with permission from the wife. Ie. divorce really wasn't a thing. They found a case of this on "who do you think you are".
The objections part of the ceremony is a critical plot point in Jane Eyre. Church marriages were open to anyone, as they were public ceremonies. Jane and Mr. Rochester are literally at the alter and have just had the “speak now” bit announced when a strange man does so and announces that he’s already married and that his wife is still alive. The ceremony comes to a screaming halt.
Run away to get married at 15 is always a bad idea. My aunt did it and she regrets it
Oh no! I’m so sorry for your aunt. I agree. I think it’s always a bad idea too. 😳
My husband and I basically did the bare minimum to get married- but since our city's courthouse is on an island, we call it our "destination island wedding". In the regency era, we probably would have done the same- as regular middle class folks who didn't want to put forth extra effort or expense, we'd just do the one where the pastor reads off our intention to get married for 3 weeks and as long as no one cares, we're good to go.
My brain gets locked on the idea of the regency casino at Gretna Green. But not the casino itself but how would look regency hangover the next day with waking up in the most unexpected place.
First of all, you are looking very lovely and sophisticated in this video!
I want to add to your explanation of why Lydia's shacking up with Wickham would have ruined her marriage prospects and damaged the prospects of her sisters. The assumption would be that as Lydia had put out for a man before marriage that she would be very likely to continue such behavior after marriage. Even today most men would not like that behavior in their wife. Her actions harmed her sisters because the assumption would be that they would be likely to behave as their sister had done. A lot of men would avoid taking that chance.
It is only fair to say that Lydia did have the intention of getting married when she left Brighton with Wickham. How long it took for Wickham to "persuade" her to give up the idea is left to our imagination.
Agreed. I do think Mr Collins and the Meryton gossips exaggerate how much other men will assume Lydia's sisters will be just like her, though. From what I've read of the Regency, the reaction would have varied. And of course Darcy and Bingley demonstrate a more broad-minded section of society than Lady Catherine and Mr Collins! I honestly think he was trying to worry his cousins even more than the situation called for. Certainly you are correct that it would have deterred MANY prospective suitors, and the Bennet girls really could not afford to lose ANY chances.
I think Lydia was ignorant and besotted enough to believe Wickham if he told her they were 'as good as' married. And there is an interesting take in the 1995 miniseries - Lydia appears more interested in 'intimacy' than Wickham who is worried about finances and seems frustrated by her attentions. Elizabeth does remark in the book that the elopement was brought about more by the strength of LYDIA'S attachment. Wickham liked the conquest, but I wonder just how interested he was in sex with Lydia, at any rate after a couple 'nights of passion' ended his interest? I think, personally, he was hanging on to Lydia not because he was still interested in sleeping with her, but more because he was hoping to be paid to return her.
@@cmm5542 I agree completely! As Mrs. Gardiner says, "Wickham, of course, wanted more than he could get..." There are many small touches like that in the 1995 P&P, which makes it my favorite version. If Darcy had not been in the picture, Wickham would have seen to it that Lydia was discovered before long. Mr. Bennet would not have paid as much as Mr. Darcy did, of course. In that case Lydia might have ended like Maria Bertram. I wonder who would have been her Mrs. Norris!
Think you are a bit hard on Hardwicke's Marriage Act of 1753 which was designed to protect young girls, especially heiresses , who might be lured away , seduced and married under-age for their money. Sometimes women thought they were married only to find it wasn't a valid legal ceremony. So the Act said that marriage could only take place in a church where you were known , in daylight with the consent of your family. If you wanted to have it elsewhere or without banns , then you needed to pay for a Common Licence ...though that still needed to be in a church and with family consent if you were under age. Or go off to Gretna Green, of course!
To be fair to him, Darcy did try to convince Lydia to 'quit her present disgraceful situation' and fall upon any friends willing to assist her. Thsi probably meant to be supported by her family again and being placed away, or if she were pregnant, secluded in some distant farmhouse. Darcy knew Wickham would not make a good husband. But Lydia refused any help, his or anyone elses. She believed she and Wickham would be married eventually and didn't care when. She kept going on and on about him to anyone who would listen and never once clocked in that she done anything wrong. In that situation, all Darcy could do to help was to expedite a marriage by bribing Wickham. Although a stink would remain, this saved Lydia's reputation and those of her sisters. Darcy and Bingley overlooked A LOT to marry Jane and Lizzie, but them having a 'girl upon the town' as a sister would kill any romantic notions. And that where Lydia was heading. Wickham had no intention of marrying her and was still hoping to marry richer elsewhere (he admits this much to Darcy). Lydia would be left alone and penniless in some seedy part of London, possibly pregnant. Her only option would have been appealing for help to the Gardiners (if she remembered their address) or sinking deeper and trying to earn money the lie down way.
The next question, in my mind, would be why would Wickham choose to run off with Lydia in the first place?
That is a good question! Basically he was running away from his regiment because he had debts he couldn’t pay. Since he knew he was going to be on the run, he figured he may as well bring along Lydia, sleep with her for a while, and then ditch her when she lost her interest to him. She of course thought he was really in love with and would marry her.
@@EllieDashwood I also suspect it was bit of a power play against Lizzie (and maybe even Mr. Darcy, though I don't think at this point Wickham had reason to believe that Darcy had huge crush on Lizzie). In their last meeting, she had strongly hinted, she did not fully believe Wickham's lies anymore. Wickham is just the kind of character who would enjoy bringing her down a notch if he suspected she was starting to think ill of him (and maybe spreading that further). And Lydia offered very good way to do that. So, what's to lose: Mr. Bennet is quite passive and not the kind that has huge amount of influence so that Wickham would be vary scared to taint his daughter. Lydia was flirt and immediately up to the plan (also likely to ... put out... before actual marriage). So, revenge, sex with pretty young girl and superficially nicer looking reason to escape, compared to the debts.
Lydia was a willing bedfellow for Wickham, because of her wild nature and lack of guidance from her parents, as evidenced by her father's indifference -- other than to remark repeatedly that she was silly -- and her mother's doting attitude that she could do no wrong and Kitty could do no right. I have no doubt he made promises to Lydia that he never intended to fulfill, and if there was any loss of interest between them, it would be him losing interest in her, not the other way around. Austen notes at the end of P&P about Wickham and Lydia, that "Their manner of living, even when the restoration of peace dismissed them to a home, was unsettled in the extreme. They were always moving from place to place in quest of a cheap situation, and always spending more than they ought. His affection for her soon sunk into indifference; hers lasted a little longer; and in spite of her youth and her manners, she retained all the claims to reputation which her marriage had given her." We can surmise from this that Wickham was soon philandering again, but Lydia never cheated on him, in spite of having every good reason to.
As for why Darcy would fight so hard to force Wickham into marriage, I believe there was a bit of payback on Darcy's part. He had firsthand knowledge of Wickham's careless affairs, and the potential for ruination for any girl unhappy enough to be targeted by Wickham's advances, but did nothing until it threatened someone close to him (Lizzie's connection through the actions of her sister). By forcing Wickham into marriage with a very young, very stupid girl whose only thoughts were filled with endless entertainment, Darcy was putting a padlock on Wickham's freedom and future happiness. Darcy felt very deeply that the disaster Wickham could have visited upon the Bennett family was in part his fault for not denouncing the man as a cad and a bounder much earlier, in an effort to shield his sister from scandal. Even if Wickham were to cheat on Lydia later (as we are led to believe he did), he would never find true happiness, as Darcy had found, in someone he could truly love.
I think Wickham must have heard something of Darcy's interest in Lizzie and thought that he could use Lydia to essentially blackmail her family and perhaps Darcy into getting some funds and it worked...
I'm still waiting for someone to object to the banns being read in my church - and since it's a beautiful little parish church LOTS of people get married here, and no objections have EVER been raised. My vicar makes a joke every time of diligently looking around the congregation to see if anyone has an objection, but I guess there are no Mr Rochesters in my county!
Special license does not only cost more, but it takes less time to procure as well (week vs. month, or something like that).
Another perfect episode! Thank you 💖 and I think I would just have a simple banns read sort of marriage haha I don't think I could afford the other two if I lived in austens day - unless I married Mr Darcy!
I liked your subtle jane eyre quote there haha 💖💖
Aw, Thank you! I would probably have the banns read as well! It does have a certain romance too it though!
Initially, Elizabeth is quite taken with Wickam, and she still thinks Darcy is awful. Wickam seems to have a way with the ladies. He fools Elizabeth for a while, he nearly elopes with Darcy's younger sister, and then he almost gets away with condemning Lydia to a terrible fate.
Actually, in France marriage banns are still an obligation. It should be published during 10 days before the marriage in the city halls of the places where bride and groom live, and also in the city hall where their marriage will take place.
You have to think of total life expectancy back then compared to today. If people are dying between the ages of 50 and 60, you have to get married before 25 if you want to have what people then called a long marriage.
The reason that the Jewish ceremony of adulthood [ the bar mitzvah ] happens at 13 or 14 is that you have to become an adult fast if you are going to die at 50.
Yes, definitely. And there was also the high infant mortality rate and dangers of childbirth - even now doctors say the healthiest time to have a first baby is between the ages of 18 and 25; so if you wait longer than that in a time period where your chance of dying in childbirth is already high, you are just risking complications, miscarriage, and stillbirths. And people needed to start having kids early if they wanted to have enough so that there was a chance of at least one surviving to adulthood, or the human race would die out! Having lots of children was the historical version of 'saving the planet' today.
A special license also lets a couple get married anywhere at any time. Depending on the year the historical romance you're reading is set in, the couple can only be married between the hours of 6 am and 8pm or 8 am and noon and inside your parish church.
The other Bennet sisters (minus Lizzie) probably wouldn't have been able to get married either because other families would have felt that if Lydia ran off with a man, who's to say that the others wouldn't do the same?
Actually it would have made all of Mr Darcy's Aunt lady Catherine's objection to the marriage actually valid because of Lydia's situation.
If Wickham had absolutely refuse to marry Lydia. Darcy literally could not have married Lizzie. Bingley wouldn't have been able to marry Jane either because they both have younger unmarried sisters to think of.
If there was no way of sweeping this under the rug with a legitimate marriage it would have ruined the entire Bennett family.
Darcy couldn't have married Lizzie and kept the honor and respect of the Pemberlly house and it would have ruined Georgiana's chances of making a good marriage. Although Darcy is an incredible man and loves Lizzie very much. He would not ruin his sister's chances like that. He is the kind of self-sacrificing guy who would have given up on Lizzy and made sure that Georgiana got to get a good marriage. Even if he never had the heart to marry anyone else. Because then Pemberly would go to one of Georgia's children.
Lydia would brag for the rest of her life that she was the first of her sisters to get married despite being the youngest. I wonder if she ever stopped being immature.
"Secret wife, locked in the attic..." wouldn't that be Jane Eyre?
Yep,
Learned something new again.
Thanks for sharing the analysis.
I’ve never understood Wickham’s motives for telling Lydia they were running off to get married when he had no intention of doing so. Just what was his end goal? Sex? He could get that anywhere... and we all know Lydia had no great fortune for a dowry.
I think sex was a part of it. I also think it was a form of amusement, and a way of getting back at Elizabeth for kind of dropping him.
He had no incentive to marry Lydia. Her family had no money and he had a lot of debt. He may have suspected that Darcy and Elizabeth were beginning to be drawn to each other and he was always jealous of Darcy. So humiliating the Bennett family would probably end any relationship they might hope for. Darcy basically paid Wickham to marry Lydia. And those two characters deserved each other.
@@jeancoughlin5490 that’s my point though it doesn’t make sense. Wickham didn’t have the foggiest idea that Lizzie and Darcy were a thing so I don’t get how that could have been a motivator. Lizzie didn’t even know at any point that Wickham could have caught wind lol. He had no reason to mess with the Bennetts.
@@AndersWatches When reading the book, I always got the impression that Wickham thought that there was money in the Bennetts. They were landed gentry, had a country estate and were regular participants in their society social scene. It would have been considered rude and vulgar to talk of money matters unless it was with a serious suitor. ,Don't forget that he tried to do the exact same thing with Georgina, then he was essentially disgraced and disowned. When he met the Bennetts, he probably thought that they were a good second prize and when he failed to charm Lizzie, he charmed Lydia instead. After all, he was a desperate man with debts so his ambitions were lowered. He was determined to force a marriage (Via scandal) However Lydia being a chatterbox that she is, revealed the actual value of her estate (It being entailed and all.) So he refused to marry her, not caring that her life and reputation were essentially ruined. She just didn't have the goods he wanted. Then Darcy stepped in...
@@Animefreakess I suppose, though I don’t think he failed to charm Lizzie. I guess he may have thought her too intelligent to be easily manipulated. I can’t remember why his marriage to Mary King didn’t happen either 🤔 it also wasn’t lost on me how his victim preference was 15 year olds. 😬 Poor Lydia.
It was mentioned in Bridgerton too, so it’s a kind of Vegas in the regency era?
Literally just finished listening to Jane Eyre for probably the 5th time...such a sweet, romantic novel ☺️ I love how Jane and mr Rochester describe each other
i loved that sly jane eyre hint
The marriage laws still differ between England and Scotland (I don't know about Wales). In England only set buildings are licensed for weddings like churches, registry offices and some hotels etc, whereas in Scotland it is the person performing the ceremony that is licensed. This is partly because in England you have to be married in a public place, I think this is so that if someone wishes to object to the wedding they can do so.
My mother eloped at 14 with a military man. Her parents thought they’d stopped it but they were too late. She lived secretly married while her husband was out of the country two years then when he csme back she announced it and they moved to Miami where he proceeded to treat her very badly. Her parents refused to take her back forcing her to live with her decision.
Wow, that's harsh! I think one could be forgiven for stupidities committed at 14. 14-year-olds are not adults...
@@monmothma3358 I’ve met a lot of women who got married in more legitimate ways (as adults, with knowledge and consent from the parents), and the parents did the same thing… the fathers would say that it was their choice to get married, and once married they wouldn’t take them back, even if they were being abused :(
@@ludmilamaiolini6811 That's awful. I guess that's when it's important for society to have alternative arrangements for support, like crisis shelters, financial support or easy access to education, making it easier for women to leave an abusive man and make it on their own. Unfortunately, you don't choose your parents, so there'll always be some who'll be pitiless like that.
I think the real question is would Lydia have agreed to run away with Wickham if she knew he wasn't planning to marry her?
Probably not if she believed it. But like plenty of other teens, she probably had WAY too much naive faith in her own charms and would have been convinced she could get him to marry her eventually even if she knew that wasn't his original intention. Girls still fall into that trap with their boyfriends nowadays far too often. 🙁
There's a reason for that low age in marriage. It's to prevent arranged marriages and children/teens getting their inheritance wasted before they can lay hands on it. It also prevents parents manipulating their kids in engaging age (people got engaged earlier back then) to get engaged or not at their parents/tutors' benefit over the person who's getting married. It also prevented some... very nasty abuse.
Basically, it revolves around inheritance and arranged marriage in childhood.
Love your dress. I think the "oil" of the way they behaved may have helped them get along in marriage.
Mr. Wickham never intended to marry Lydia, or he would have just gone to Gretna Green with her. . It was only Mr. Darcy's money that changed the situation.
Thank you, I didn't get if from the novel! Could you please explain one more thing. In Mansfield park there is a parsonage for Edmund in Mansfield park which is meant to be his, but instead is goes to Mr. Grant. Why? Sir Thomas mentions that it had to do something with the bad behavior and probably gaming debts of his eldest son (I forgot his name). But i didn't understand how that is connected at all.
That is a great question! I will definitely add it to my list of future video ideas!
Put very simply, though, is that Sir Thomas had something called patronage in the church. He could decide who got to live in the parsonages on his estates and be the local clergymen. This went far beyond the house, though, because whoever he appointed as a clergyman also got to collect tithes. That tithe income was called a “living.”
Basically, Sir Thomas could select men for these posts that came with a job, house, and income. These appointments could hypothetically last the rest of the appointee’s life (which we see because it lasts until Dr. Grant dies).
Because these were such important posts that came with significant financial benefits, it was common for families to give these to their sons (like Edmund).
But a family could also sell the appointment for money. Basically, it was a “give me money, and I’ll set you up in this parsonage the rest of your life” type deal.
Because of the eldest son’s bad behavior, Sir Thomas needed extra money. And so, instead of keeping this valuable appointment for Edmund, he raised funds by selling it to Dr. Grant.
Now, this selling would be for the appointment. Sir Thomas would still own the patronage and ability to appoint others after Dr. Grant dies, which is why after Dr. Grant dies, Sir Thomas is then able to appoint Edmund to it after all.
@@EllieDashwood wow, now I see, Sir Thomas sold the living to Dr Grant. There is so much that we miss from the books just because our reality nowadays is so different. Thank you for your reply! And I would love a video on clergy and parsonages!
Scotland has a different legal system to England and Wales to this day.
A question about the scope of "Classical Literature". What time frame do you deal with? Any Epic of Gilgamesh, Gospel of St. John, Beowulf, Sir Gwain and the Green Knight, The Pilgrims Progress, Macbeth, Robinson Caruso, Great Expectations, The Jungle Book, Heart of Darkness.... What language/nationality? Any Alexander Dumas, Miguel Cervantes, Leo Tolstoy...
The marriage laws have always been more relaxed in Scotland than in England for centuries. Those who were in their teens or twenties who just could not wait until the appropriate age to get married in England have always been eloping or at least sprinting to this famous Scottish border town to get married.
Just to nitpick, at the time "elope" just meant run away, not the act of marriage per modern terminology... and it's even a point made in the novel that they have eloped but may not marry.
The age thing is because until 1875 the age of consent in the UK was 13 (and until the Regency Era it was 12, the age established by a Tudor-Era law)
Let's be clear here, Darcy wasn't being a white knight; he saved Lydia's reputation to curry favor with Lizzie.
Not really, because Lizzie was never meant to find out
@@astrothsknot Perhaps
@@mch12311969 I agree. Lydia let it "Slip" that Darcy arranged the marriage, She was sworn not to tell anyone so naturally, she tells everyone.
I always suspected that Mr. Darcy helped out because the social death of Lydia would taint the whole family, making his much-wanted courtship and marriage to Lizzie to be impossible. AND the marriage of his good friend Mr. Bingley to Lizzie's sister would also be impossible.
@@Melissa-wx4lu I suspect Darcy knew that Lydia would let it "slip".
How did you end up with such a Jane Austen name? It's perfect for what you talk about.
If I've understood correctly, it's not her real name.
@@monmothma3358
Really? I never suspected.
I’m shocked! :)
We still have banns read in the UK if a couple want to get wed in a Church of England place of worship.
That’s so interesting!
"Elope" cannot be used in the passive form (as you do several times in this video). It means to run away as a couple without the girl's parents' permission.
I thought reading the banns was more a way for someone to step forward and say they were too closely related to be getting married.
Lydia had no clue that what she was doing was so wrong or how it affected her family. ... thanks for this video I really enjoyed it!
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Have you ever done a video comparing Mr. and Mrs. Bennet's marriage with Mr. and Mrs. Collins marriage? One objection, I think, that Elizabeth had to Charlotte marrying Mr. Collins is that it would be another marriage where one could not respect the other. Elizabeth grew up with that in her house with her parents, so it's understandable that she would't want her best friend to have that same situation. Granted, as Elizabeth said, viewed in a prudential light, it was a good match for Charlotte given her age, lack of dowry, etc. However, the very essence of both marriages is the lack of respect of one for the other.
Prior to 1753 all you needed to be married in England was SAY you were married. No priest, license,, witnesses or any kind of ceremony was required. Just call each other husband and wife and it was done. Which is the reason Henry VIII fussed so much over his wives former crushes when he wanted to divorce them. If they had ever said anything like "I want to be with you forever" to a boy that could be interpreted as a marriage vow. Thus his wife was a bigamist and he could get an annulment. This also made the line between being married and engaged very blurry.
If I were a person in Regency England, I’d probably get the bands read at church, but if I were allowed to be as chaotic as I am in modern times, I’d run away to Gretna Green! Was there anything particularly scandalously about being of age and engaged and *choosing* to elope to Gretna Green instead of doing one of the other options available?
@@carmenaguado492 Oh, interesting! For a second I forgot that ✨the eyes of society✨ would probably extend to choosing to elope just for funsies, if Gretna Green had such a reputation.
Hmmmmm.... assuming that I (and more importantly, my parents) maintained roughly the same social class as in the modern era, I would peg myself riiiiiight at the border between getting the banns read and getting a common license. It would probably depend on my husband. Regardless, I highly doubt I would be getting married in Gretna Green unless I happened to live there. I’m WAAAAAY too much of a goody-two-shoes to pull off that kind of a stunt!
Same, no Gretna Green for me! 😂 Maybe you’d marry a duke and have a special license!
Mr Darcy's mother was nobility. Her father was an earl and now Darcy's uncle (Colonel Fitzwilliam's father) carries the title. While his aunt is still aristocracy. So perhaps he could get a special license through those connections. Mr Palmer and Charlotte probably had one, with her father being nobility and him being very wealthy and him aiming to be an MP.
It’s true, all the connections would definitely help!
Charlotte Palmer's father was not nobility - her mother's married title is Mrs Jennings, not Lady . Her sister is only Lady Middleton because she married SIR John Middleton, who was I think a knight.
From what I remember in school even if you opted for a licence you still had the banns read in your local church. The Reverend or Priests would often use full names and titles, relevant grand connections or just boasting on your behalf when announcing those of Well-bred classes (probably with a generous donation in their pocket too). Whereas for the riff-raff it was just Farmer John Smith and Maggie Jones the Bakers daughter are wanting to wed in three weeks, goodbye. Obviously, if you were for some reason in a rush (oops she's pregnant and all that) you didn't, but was usually still done. It was as with everything way to not only announce you managed to snag someone it also to remind and show off to everyone in your community each week when they were all trapped... er I mean in attendance at church on a Sunday as all good Christians of the time should be.
You can bet your boots Mrs Bennet made sure Lizzy and Jane's weddings were announced, especially as it would have been seen as a real rise in the families connections, fame and a good way to make up for any gossip and local looking down upon the family due to Lydia scandal.
Even today we still have a version of the Banns. I got married by the registrar in a Great house (so no church), when we went to our licence interview a few months before (you show your IDs, answer various questions, declare your both free to marry and pay your fees). We were told we had to post banns, they would post it in either the local county paper or on the Council public notice board for three weeks for us (can't remember which) it was included in the feed and not optional. They explained it was so anyone who had a legitimate reason to object had the time to do so.
We were advised we could also have them read at our local church as well, which is still very common here for couples who have a church ceremony though some churches opt to use the parish weekly newsletter for announcements.
I would definitely go to Gretna Green just to see Scotland 😸
Scotland is gorgeous! My favorite place over there is Edinburgh, it was incredible! After Gretna Green you should check it out! 😂
My friends got married in Gretna Green, because the now husband was an immigrant. So these laws are still working and still useful for people, who just want to get married.
I've always wondered why Mr Wickham married Lydia... I'm sure he knew she and her sister's weren't of the best means so he wouldn't get what he would have gotten from Georgiana had he been able to marry her.
A kid in my San Diego high school at age 14 ran down to Tijuana to get married.