As a lifelong atheist/agnostic raised in the presbyterian church, it wasn’t until a very close family member who was Antiochian orthodox just recently passed away that I started to feel my inner architecture shift towards some longing curiosity towards orthodoxy. For whatever reason, talks like this one and others involving Jonathan Pageau have completely blown me wide-open, kicked down the doors and started remodeling my inner architecture. I’ve never been this kind of person at all, but I found myself weeping tears of joy/relief on my commute to work this morning as I listen to this. Thank you, gentlemen. Now starts the real work, as you all alluded to at the end of the conversation
I love how when Bernardo talks with Jonathan that the analytical idealism is structurally in place so that they can explore more speculative intuition and Jungian ideas of spiritual creativity.
Although Bernardo is not Christian when he said the purpose of prayer is to give thanks to God and not to ask God for blessings. It hit home. Sometimes takes a slight angle to shine the right light for a particular person.
@@petesake1181 well it seems intuitively right to say it. If there is a God then is my inner life truly approaching the transcendent if my focus is on my material life. Prayer that is about gratitude seems stronger than that which is petitioning from my perspective. Neither he nor or I have the answers
@@logoimotions You are correct that for you it seems intuitively right to say it, but for another it may be just as intuitive to proffer the opposite. “If there is a God then is my inner life truly approaching the transcendent if my focus is on my material life.” Why wouldn’t it be. Look, it seems to be that your position just takes the back end, being grateful for whatever, while the other is taking the ex ante position, asking for whatever. Stuck in the middle is material life. Essentially they linked to the same thing. Is my understanding off? If it is, it may be because we are not thanking him for anything? Would that be correct?
@@petesake1181 I think another could of course see that and indeed, that might be the right angle for them to see something new, to have that small little click moment. Could someone see the transcendent in the material - I think so, provided they have a sense of the relativity of it to the transcendent but from materialism alone it would be starting a few steps behind in my feel.
@@logoimotions But what do we thank God for if not for materiel life? If you could give me an example then I would accept that the purpose of prayer is giving thanks to God.
This is actually one of the best conversations I have seen with Pageau. It was the kind of conversation Weinstein and Pageau should have had and likely never will have. I hope we get to see these two together again soon. Even as often as the Universal History discussions. Chemistry and synergies were off the charts here. And great insights were produced as a result.
Great coversation! As for the decadence of Western Christianity, perhaps Bernardo should note that the orientation of the priest towards the congregation is a recent change in the Catholic Church, only since the II Vatican Council. Prior to that Mass was celebrated "ad orientem" (facing God), and this form of liturgy is still practised in some Catholic traditional parishes (Traditional Latin Mass). Thank you!
Saying that orientation of priest towards congregation is a recent change is not true. Since antiquity there was tradition that in specific moment in liturgy priest and congregation would face east (symbolising rising sun as christ, heavenly jerusalem and direction of second coming of christ) but it didnt mean necesarly that priest would be back-turned to congregation. Location of altar in earliest churches varied depending on geogrphical location and even depending on particular churches. Sometimes altars were in wetsern apses and priests would stand behind altar, turned back to wall of apse and facing east and congregation (congregation would face altar in the west, turning back to east in certain points in liturgy). Sometimes altars would be in the middle of nave and priest would move from one side of altar to another during liturgy. And sometimes (it become more and more frequent as time moved on, and a norm after trident council) altars would be in eastern apse and priest and congregation would be facing east all the time. I respect and feel sympathy for bernardo but hes projecting his ideas about alleged loss of sense of divinity in western world in facing congregation in ahistorical manner. For early and medieval church there wasnt that important if priest would be facing congregation or not, it was important that priest and congregation would face east during eucharistic prayer, as directions on axis weast-east in that particular culture would be made to have dichotomal symbolic meaning of sunset-sunrise,-ressurected christ,-redeemer, death-life, profanum-sacrum, fallen world-heavenly jerusalem. Altar itself doesnt symbolise or contain divinity but is a place where events of incarnation and redempting sacrifice are reanacted in both symbolic and real way. What bernardo and "traditionalists" are forgetting is that versus populum cant remove sense of divinity from mass (especially in culture that doesnt have in its symbolic language turning east as image of anticipation second coming of christ) because for catholic ultimately not direction per se is important, but what happens during mass to eucharistic substances. Divinity becomes immanent, incarnate during act of eucharistic prayer regardless of if it is ad orientem or versus populum. And congregation take part in that divinity during communion not only in symbolic but also in very litteral sense. Meaning that mass conveys is the same in ortodox and catholic churches but it can be very different in protestant churches. Versus populum or ad orientem is not important at all, almost superficial, in building sense if participation in divinity, if we compare that to impact of doctrine of real presence or its abandonemend can have in peoples mind.
Great conversation - and true humility and courage from Kastrup. And adding some important insights to one of the biggest themes in Dante's Comedy as well; understanding yourself in the bigger picture. This is very much in the idea of aligning your own Free Will (your choices) with the Divine Will. The metaphorical voluntarily giving back your Free Will, to the Divine. And thus discover a whole new wealth and abundance of meaning.
Mind blowing and heartfelt conversation. Wow. What a pleasure to listen to. Jonathan, if there’s one thing to add, I wish you would bring up the revelation and grace of Christianity. The whole point to Christianity is that we cannot save ourselves without God reaching out to us, without God’s revelation as someone else in the comments noted about the New Jerusalem. As Simone Weil said: I need God to take me by force, because, if death, doing away with the shield of the flesh, were to put me face to face with him, I should run away.
Being a recent Catholic convert and attending Mass on a daily basis in Ireland, the priests stand to the side of the alter and face the alter with their back to the laity at every service for at least a certain duration. Loving this dialogue, by the way. Had to edit. This is brilliant stuff. The crossover and integration happening with the "Diamond" (which etymologically bears the word God in it) and Guardian Angel analogies are wonderful.
@@MoreChrist I see Bernado is unattainable via email :) Hoping you will see this. Can you provide the name and spelling of the bishop in the 1500s he was referring to with the treasure. I would like to read up on him. Thanks.
I didn't have time to listen to this entire interview, but I think answers to these ideas/ thoughts/ questions can be found and are greatly and wonderfully supplied in Vladimir Lossky's book, THE MYSTICAL THEOLOGY OF THE EASTERN CHURCH. This entire book is excellent, insightful, thorough, and well explained. Chapter 5, "Created Being," is an amazing explanation of man, what he was created to be, what the fall brought upon him, and what he can still become, in measure. I highly recommend it. Human reason cannot find answers to these questions, but God has revealed them to those whom He has been please to enlighten (and for our help), and to those who acknowledge that we can never know these things entirely. . . . What really stands out to me in the chapter mentioned, very briefly, is that we must totally surrender our will to God's will. "The person who asserts himself as an individual, and shuts himself up to his particular nature, far from realizing himself fully, becomes impoverished (pp. 123-4)." He goes on to say, "The person called to union with God, called to realize by grace the perfect assimilation of our nature to the divine nature, is bound to a mutilated nature defaced by sin and torn apart from conflicting desires" (p. 125)--and much more. --Hope I'm not off with my comment here. I've been known to misunderstand things. If so, I ask your forgiveness.
@@MoreChrist Everyone should read & deeply consider/contemplate it's rich depths of meaning! It's truly amazing and wonderful! God is most wonderful and amazing, and I don't say that lightly!
Pageau - what a great conversation! Great to see this connection. ... This is unrelated, I wanted to suggest a topic, have you considered the symbolism of Mexico? There's a lot there - the Virgin of Guadalupe, the symbols of the Aztecs, the Eagle on the Cactus devouring the Serpent. Anyway, just a thought. thank you for your work!
@@RodrigoMera pues... no se! me gustaria ver como interpreta Pageau el encuentro entre los Aztecas y los Espagnoles. Tambien como Mexico incorpora los simbolos Christianos y los hace mas ricos y varios. Tal vez el cuento de la Virgen de Guadalupe seria un buen lugar para empezar. I really haven't thought about it too much tho! good luck!
on my second viewing now, and i'm comprehending the points far greater and enjoying the conversation even more. still learning more and more, thank you for this discussion it has really opened my mind in new ways
Totally, the object-oriented ontology folks definitely have something interesting to say regarding the Verveake and Pageau discussions on Angels "as hyperobjects".
Do what is meaningful, not expedient... Stand Up with your shoulders straight...Treat yourself like someone you are responsible for.... Suffering is inevitable...to me, this wonderful conversation actually corroborates Jordan Peterson's 12 rules for life. But then again, maybe it's because this is a special corner of the internet and the algorithm just works.
What an excellent conversation. I thought this conversation went much better than Bernardo and Vervaeke’s conversation. It would be great if you guys could talk more about idealism next time. I’m not an idealist but I’m wondering if Jonathan is.
@@mariog1490 I'm not saying he isn't a smart and insightful thinker, but a good, clear orator/speaker he surely isn't. Following him through his neurotically cerebral tirades, is, at least for me, almost painful.
@@veilofreality Verveake has a lot to offer, maybe you drank from the wrong well (discussions). He was given a prize; naming him the best, or one of the best professors at the university of Toronto some years back. Ironically, for being a very clear and articulate lecturer that has the ability to make salient whats most important through the use of the socratic method. Maybe you're a bit sensitive, or simply lacking in obversational abilities... Although, I can agree that he has some annoying tendencies that surfaces every now and then, I cant say I've found any interesting intellectual ever that doesn't have any. Your comment is a great example of why you don't throw pearls to swine.
15:15 "I have had the experience of resolving certain dissociative states that I have had for years, and in retrospect (and this will sound funny, maybe even sound contradictory) I know that I was both sides of that dissociation. For the longest time -- if you would have asked me in the past, 'are you feeling this and that?' I would have said 'No, I don't feel that at all. That's not how I feel at all. That's not me, it's not part of my world.' Today, I look back and I realize -- 'No, I *was* feeling that way. I was always feeling that way. I just didn't recognize it to myself.'"
The sewage flows along with the pure water. This is the nature of the mind in its state of seperation from its true nature...so be it...but as non dualists we can try...again and again...to foreground that Isness... the Awareness...in which everything flows. Living in community with others is the way we mature...we have then to find compsssion and empathy no matter the circumstance. Loved Jonathan's response at the end...about messiness and smelliness of community. Bernado you hit the nail on the head to raise the tendency to romanticise spirituality...but surely once people are hooked there is only one way forward...ie. serving others seeing Spirit in all...and grounded in love and knowledge of our true nature in Consciousness. Remembering here Rupert Spira's...the screen ...on which falls the movie of life... the screen embraces all dualities. Bernardo was so right to remind us in giving we diminish the separated self that clouds the screen. Wonderful to see you two. Thank you.
We will like to request the host, if he could invite Bernardo again and hold a discussion with an other philosopher theologian, and touch in this specific point. I feel this is the most important point of contemplation in the idealist- religious discussion. 🙏
Grateful to have my family's pretty sounding images of guardian angels grounded in something I actually experience and revere in my life already. A wealth of symbolism and tradition opened up to me once more.
Bernardo, the most complete understanding of will has been suggested by John G Bennett. Here is a sample quote from his book Deeper Man. "We tend to talk about will almost entirely in human terms, but it is as important cosmologically as it is psychologically. Will enters into everything that exists, even the most inert and passive states of matter. This does not mean of course that there a tiny beings inside rocks or very large super beings inside planets and stars. Will is the dynamic of change everywhere and at all levels. When it is associated with a self-renewing body there is a living being. Even here we have fallen into the trap of talking about an 'it' as if it were an entity or object."
1:26:00 self-sacrifice or losing yourself through serving… sounds noble and makes sense although a bit of an interesting paradox. How do you know your motives aren’t self-serving tho? Is it enough to serve in order to get / be fulfilled? Or is it service above all else? Can you even continue to serve without any return / fulfillment? I’m not sure how to think about that…
@@ionatanaflamestyle yes I suppose it’s inevitable whether we’re doing it out of “pure” motives or whether we’re being selfish. Does it matter if that’s what motivates us - serving primarily for me to be fulfilled? How can we know if we’re being motivated by selfish motives or not?
19:44 profound... In the Bhakti tradition it is preferable that prayer is listening (as we chant the Holy Names) and that the devotee provides the most desirable home for God in the heart because he has no demands of Him.
1:43:25 enlightenment is a shit show 💯 I feel this in my bones! Reality is not divorced from spirituality except by our own thinking; it's language which creates the impossible chasm.... Empathy is certainly a form of enlightenment and I haven't figured my way out of it yet. 🤣
As a cultural Christian having grown up in northeast US I was/am a rather ardent secularist, even have had periods of militant atheism. But after five and half decades of experience I have been lately opened to broadening a search ‘for meaning’, which has landed me in place where I am now being exposed to thought akin to those in this conversation. I have been paying a lot of attention to Bernardo and Jonathan and adjacent others ‘the algorithms’ have packaged and delivered to my attention lol. Being a newbie to this ‘realm’ I’ve been exposed to what feels likes epiphanies or synchronicities that ‘smack’ against my consciousness in a good way,lol. As an example or consequence of the present moment of exposure to technology and image processing , I got a big smack. There was a point in the video where an image of Moloch was superimposed on/over the moderator’s room and when it ‘dissolved’ the relevant space showed a vase of flowers and Boom. I saw the flowers as a symbol of beauty or the good , as an actualization of the potential for beauty to ‘become’ or the good to be realized or instanuated (I may mention I’ve been exploring the Whiteheadian realm too ). The epiphany, for me, was that as opposed to the idea of Moloch ‘receiving’ a sacrifice for the promised immediate satisfaction of receiving a ‘good’ , the promise of the good being instantiated in the flowers also carries the possibility of renewal of the good, whereas the surrendering of the sacrifice to Moloch is the destruction of the possibility for renewal of the good. The beauty,good from the flower becomes or is instantiated by the process of living and dying in the temporal sense. Life and regeneration are the ‘mechanisms’ by which beauty and the good are actualized. A sacrifice to Moloch for immediate satisfaction is the destruction of the possibility for continued generation of the good. This is somewhat against Johnathan’s notion of ritual sacrifice as a recognition of receiving a higher good, but perhaps points to the responsibility of ‘picking’ the right or correct ‘form’ of giving ‘up’. The other synchronicity was while scribbling notes during the episode they later referenced Noah, which folded this loose idea back to the idea of regeneration of life. The gathering of the animals can be seen as the preservation of the constituent needs of the process of good/beauty that are generated through the process of becoming ,living. Without the ‘pairs’ the actualization of the process of the good ‘unfolding’ is cut off. The ‘wrong kind’ of sacrifice is pure destruction absent the possibility of a renewed or continuing ability for the generation of ‘goodness’ ‘becoming’. Burning it ‘all up’ in cosmic conflagration releases an all consuming flame , but the flame is temporary and leaves nought for becoming. Moloch isn’t just a symbol of an immediate destruction , it’s more a piecemeal view of total destruction.
Talking about the boundaries of individual identities; they aren't arbitrary as such, just so completely framed and grouped in ways that *we as humans* cannot grasp at God-like levels of certain knowing. at 1:04ish mark
Big thanks to everyone involved, this was a fantastic meeting of the minds (or... was it?) Jokes aside, I would also like to hear you two discuss Jung a bit more in-depth. Perhaps have Bernardo respond to Bruno Bracco's "Thoughts On The Jungian Perspective On Symbolism," or Jonathan's accusation that Jung reduces everything to the psyche? The latter indictment, after all, takes on a wholly different meaning within the framework of Kastrup's analytical idealism. Keep it up both of you, and thank you for putting yourselves out there!
Seconding this suggestion! And adding-in whatever way one might find it useful-that Bernardo's recent book "Decoding Jung's Metaphysics" addresses this question quite directly... *Spoilers* Bernardo characterizes Jung explicitly as an idealist/non-dualist. Thus, (as you suggest) Jung's "psyche" is not merely the personal mind, but in fact something much more similar to mind at large/universal consciousness/Brahman/God.
@@ark-L I liked your comment. I only today discovered Bernardo and have just ordered his works. You are absolutely right about the individual psyche and its cosmic analog in God or Brahman. In the Chaldean Oracles it is equated with the World Soul/Cosmic Soul. As for Jung's non-dualism, I believe he was very careful to insist upon accepting duality as a precondition of our existence prior to any wholeness or Oneness one may attain from the painful ripping apart by the opposites and the slow gathering together of individuation.
@@ark-L What I find frustrating about Pageau's misunderstanding of Jung is precisely the manifest incomprehension of the Traditionalist School as well as religious thinkers like Martin Buber and their misguided pious fears of associating anything "psychological" (pertaining to the psyche) with God in order to preserve His absolute transcendence. It is still a common misunderstanding of Jung's thought.
@@abbasalchemist Excited for you to take in his "material"! haha Ahh, interesting point. I may have Jung wrong on this, but could you say that he sees this duality as occurring *within* one's personal psyche/Self experience and that, though it may precede our existence as an ego, it does not precede the psyche-proper from which it (and indeed everything else) emerges? In other words, might the individuation process in its entirety be seen as a movement from Oneness, to duality, back to Oneness, which, taken together, is nonetheless an expression of non-dual reality? (apologies if my terminology is wack and/or if this just comes across as gibberish... I find comprehending, let alone trying to re-present Jung with any sort of consistency to be a challenging affair lol) I'm afraid I'm not very familiar with Buber, but I 100% share your frustration with Pageau on the traditionalist front!! I do recall him in the past at least giving some reasons for his downplaying of perennialism/traditionalism; mostly, he thinks it assumes a view from nowhere-which he'd say is impossible to attain-and that one needs to inhabit a "story" (culture/religious tradition) to be able to properly find connection with the underlying "pattern" of reality. He's also expressed an aversion to the new-age perennialist-adjacent types who cherry-pick different religious ideas to fuse together their own hyper-palatized mystical Frankensteinian version-without all the crusts and prickly parts. I can sympathize with the latter point, but I think perennialism might be better seen as coming about not via a view-from nowhere, but rather a view from EVERYWHERE-i.e. by a kind of embodied superimposing of the various traditions to find the core of what is shared between all of them.
I do want to clarify one thing: Nietzsche was sick since childhood, with constant headaches and vomits, even the eye that got blind in his late years was diagnosed with a malfunction when he was young. That was not surprising since there were several antecedents of mental illness in his family, his own father died with a mental illness. There is a bigger chance of his sickness to be a cause of his disposition towards life than the other way around.
This is a very subtle form of spiritual warfare be on guard Jonathan and keep up the good work was very interesting how your guest was repelled by the notion of a guardian angel and yet drawn to the notion of a Daemon it was very interesting how you are being pulled up to a higher ness by your guardian angel and yet he was being pushed to a lower nest by his Daemon like he wants to dig around in the earth and under the Earth and uncover an ancient Bishop's lost teachings (0ccult). ✝✝✝🔥
Yes I immediately thought that this guy seems more to be suggesting from entity possession and in need of help removing it rather than extrapolating/projecting it to a theory of existence per se. He has clearly suffered a lot in his life which is about red flag re getting checked for entities.
the daimon is a well documented part to existence found by many philosophers. it in that sense would be a philosophical take on a force beyond our normal scope of experience
Not many conversations, including the little ive heard so far individually from you both, have expanded and developed my metaphysical models like this one has, for example the fractal analogy regarding the mind of china and how you can apply that to the individual and reality
Bernardo makes the point that we have romanticized and cartoonified the spiritual and transcendence/enlightenment and this makes it banal and unreal. The example was given of someone whose home life is a mess, but they are practicing yoga religiously. Perhaps this "wrong way" of trying to achieve transcendence is pointing to another and more profound way of approaching it. This would be through facing the suffering that is inherent in human life. Through a deep, honest acceptance of suffering, without resistance, we may diminish the ego and experience an awakening to the transcendent, connecting upward to the Divine. We may move from darkness, chaos, and disorder at the bottom, upward to the light, order, and unity with something greater at the top.
The idea of the diamond might also be the result of the imperfect perception of the action of separate entities, the mid point between that of the guardian angel and, on the other side, of the demonic. Which might very well be plural, though, some early fathers talk about the existence of personal demons.
I was happy that Pageau mentioned Dante. I feel that it's far too infrequent that these folks who talk about these subjects mention poets. Poets deal with these ideas. Read them!!! Coleridge deals with this stuff.
@@forthegloryofthelord "do a research" lol. What about my comment makes you think I don't already understand the Orthodox Church's position on the afterlife?
I feel like consciousness is better though of as a mode that manifests on all scales of reality in different ways. A mode on certain scale is able to perceive other modes as conscious only if they are the same (or, perhaps more generally, gelling with each other). Which would mean that, entities such as nation states, have a consciousness which is imperceptible to our consciousness, because in a way unlike our own.
Right around here 01:06:00, I'd say you don't need to get bogged down with boundaries as I see it, because I think boundary is a too strict a concept to use in the analytical mode leading to their indefinite proliferation. That's because that concept is too sharp, it's like trying to understand the night sky while having only a pinprick of light available at a time. You might be much better off using fields as a basic concept and probabilistic language. In connection with this, Sheldrake's The Presence of the Past and his concept of morphogenetic fields and habits of nature comes to mind. What about thinking about those wholes (higher-order entities) as having membranes of sorts, or soft fuzzy boundaries? Or perhaps, let's ask this: why think in terms of spatiotemporal localization? Overall though I think we just need better, more flexible, ontology that is not particularly concerned with space or time (that is to say, it includes them and transcends them). The process-relational ontology and biological metaphors I think are the way forward here, as expounded in Dupré, Nicholson, Everyhing Flows (available online for free). I'm clueless about this just as anybody. It's a mind-bending topic, if there ever was one. We must loosen our habitual grasp on things we think we know for sure.
Dr Iain McGilchrist's work is very helpful in this area, as well, I think. He points to relations as primary to relata in the structures of reality- macro and micro. Right down to our neurobiology. I agree: adopting more organic metaphors is necessary. This is probably something worth exploring with Jonathan and Bernardo next time. Thanks.
It is not a cartoonification if you see it as the relationship with the Father who is nurturing you, disciplining you, and forgiving you... you are a child that often fails, but you still have a loving relationship... you are forgiven, sanctified, and promised to partake in inheritance.
Interesting discussion. I have some concerns with his thought though from an Orthodox perspective. Effectively, his idea of theosis sounded like something of a natural evolution of the human mind. For example, it is framed like this: "Maybe one day we will evolve to grasp the mystery of unity in multiplicity." However, there's an inherent contradiction in his system of thought then. At the outset he indicated, "All things decay into dissociation and multiplicity because it's inherent in their nature given enough time." At the same time it is claimed that "nature can resolve that problem through evolution given enough time." I do not believe one can have it both ways - nature cannot decay and simultaneously transcend itself (an appeal to natural selection doesn't solve it - it just goes around the cycle of death and decay forever); however, I do think this contradiction in secular thought does reveal something of the hope and thirst that mankind has in their hearts for all things to be reconciled into unity in God. That can be a moment of conversion for many of us former secular materialists and agnostics. I was one of them and eventually I took the leap and have never looked back. Glory to Jesus Christ.
what about unity of self and a higher form of existence , maybe this can only occur once we live this world. this world really feels like the preschool to the grander scope of existence post-death
In the Christian relation between multiplicity and unity, particularity dissolves into the singular absolute, only to be reconstituted with a fuller and more concrete identity than it had before.
I feel like Bernard's objection to the imagery of The New Jerusalem is partially due to its unobtainability. It may be helpful to point out that this unreachable nature of the Divine City is explicit in scripture. We are not expected to be able to work our way to it, or build it with our effort. The New Jerusalem is "The city built without hands, whos founder and builder is God." Incorporating this is a fatal blow to our mortal pride, to which I have no doubt some aspect of Bernard's daemon will strenuously object. @More Christ
is the New Jerusalem supposed to be on Earth or in a more heavenly realm, because i doubt a god or God would come and build here during these times. What would its purpose be? Can you refresh my memory of what the New Jerusalem stands for?
@@ionatanaflamestyle Think of it as the perfected combination of the mountain of God, the temple, the pyramids, the garden of Eden, the university, and the home you never had.
I would suggest that the empirical evidence of the consciousness of cities, countries, etc that cognates to the human mind is its infrastructure. Roads, at the most basic level, no matter how big or small. One of the scarier realizations is that we have turned our own houses into images of human beings; they have a circulatory system in plumbing, lungs in HVAC, nerves with electrical, and now with the advent of "smart home systems" they have the beginnings of a brain.
Incarnational reality - Corpus Christi! The faith is rooted in the messy present reality. It has to be lived out so that it isn’t reserved to just a spiritual philosophical realm.
Dear Jonathan, Please do a video on building our ark here in Canada. Does this involve retreating to the mountains, becoming self-sufficient or building a Christian community outside of the city? "Acquire the spirit of peace" and the light of Christ in us will help others discover their inner peace here on earth. Praying for inner peace for all of humanity🙏
Just my thoughts, I think the ark is the Church. I don’t think we’re supposed to flee trouble and persecution by heading to the hills, I think we’re supposed to endure it in communion with the Church, the Body of Christ. Forsaking life for Life.
You could still be deluding yourself with the diamant or the angel/devil pulling you, and yet it still be a metaphysical influence or a being higher than yourself within a hierarchy, its just in the form that yiur your mind conceives it based on your cultural/religious influences
Jonathan, you should talk with Rupert Sheldrake. He has a biological/chemical theory that seems to address the problem of higher beings or structures. It's called Morphic Resonance Fields. Keep up the good work, bye-bye.
I’m reading Kastrup’s book right now and it’s about realism vs idealism-both new terms for me. Kastrup is an idealist, but we would say Pageau is too, correct?
So the Catholic priest facing the congregation is new as of the late 1960s early 1970s, and there are still traditional liturgies celebrated in Latin that I believe Barnardo may find much more compelling and having preserved the ancient faith.
Kenosis is about finding yourself, not extinguishing yourself. Pageau was truly unprepared to counter Kastrup's Pantheism. He often seems to want to conform to Pantheistic ideas.
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As a lifelong atheist/agnostic raised in the presbyterian church, it wasn’t until a very close family member who was Antiochian orthodox just recently passed away that I started to feel my inner architecture shift towards some longing curiosity towards orthodoxy. For whatever reason, talks like this one and others involving Jonathan Pageau have completely blown me wide-open, kicked down the doors and started remodeling my inner architecture. I’ve never been this kind of person at all, but I found myself weeping tears of joy/relief on my commute to work this morning as I listen to this. Thank you, gentlemen. Now starts the real work, as you all alluded to at the end of the conversation
I love how when Bernardo talks with Jonathan that the analytical idealism is structurally in place so that they can explore more speculative intuition and Jungian ideas of spiritual creativity.
Although Bernardo is not Christian when he said the purpose of prayer is to give thanks to God and not to ask God for blessings.
It hit home. Sometimes takes a slight angle to shine the right light for a particular person.
Why is that the purpose of prayer?
@@petesake1181 well it seems intuitively right to say it. If there is a God then is my inner life truly approaching the transcendent if my focus is on my material life.
Prayer that is about gratitude seems stronger than that which is petitioning from my perspective.
Neither he nor or I have the answers
@@logoimotions You are correct that for you it seems intuitively right to say it, but for another it may be just as intuitive to proffer the opposite.
“If there is a God then is my inner life truly approaching the transcendent if my focus is on my material life.” Why wouldn’t it be. Look, it seems to be that your position just takes the back end, being grateful for whatever, while the other is taking the ex ante position, asking for whatever. Stuck in the middle is material life. Essentially they linked to the same thing. Is my understanding off? If it is, it may be because we are not thanking him for anything? Would that be correct?
@@petesake1181 I think another could of course see that and indeed, that might be the right angle for them to see something new, to have that small little click moment.
Could someone see the transcendent in the material - I think so, provided they have a sense of the relativity of it to the transcendent but from materialism alone it would be starting a few steps behind in my feel.
@@logoimotions But what do we thank God for if not for materiel life? If you could give me an example then I would accept that the purpose of prayer is giving thanks to God.
Remarkable interview. Bernardo is very straightforward and honest.
Please Johnathan will you have RUPERT SHELDRAKE as a guest..it would be fascinating...
What a beautiful mind this Bernardo Kastrup has 💟
This convo was next level, loved it.
This is actually one of the best conversations I have seen with Pageau. It was the kind of conversation Weinstein and Pageau should have had and likely never will have. I hope we get to see these two together again soon. Even as often as the Universal History discussions. Chemistry and synergies were off the charts here. And great insights were produced as a result.
Do you think Weinstein could have had a discussion on meaning
Great coversation! As for the decadence of Western Christianity, perhaps Bernardo should note that the orientation of the priest towards the congregation is a recent change in the Catholic Church, only since the II Vatican Council. Prior to that Mass was celebrated "ad orientem" (facing God), and this form of liturgy is still practised in some Catholic traditional parishes (Traditional Latin Mass). Thank you!
Saying that orientation of priest towards congregation is a recent change is not true. Since antiquity there was tradition that in specific moment in liturgy priest and congregation would face east (symbolising rising sun as christ, heavenly jerusalem and direction of second coming of christ) but it didnt mean necesarly that priest would be back-turned to congregation.
Location of altar in earliest churches varied depending on geogrphical location and even depending on particular churches. Sometimes altars were in wetsern apses and priests would stand behind altar, turned back to wall of apse and facing east and congregation (congregation would face altar in the west, turning back to east in certain points in liturgy).
Sometimes altars would be in the middle of nave and priest would move from one side of altar to another during liturgy. And sometimes (it become more and more frequent as time moved on, and a norm after trident council) altars would be in eastern apse and priest and congregation would be facing east all the time.
I respect and feel sympathy for bernardo but hes projecting his ideas about alleged loss of sense of divinity in western world in facing congregation in ahistorical manner.
For early and medieval church there wasnt that important if priest would be facing congregation or not, it was important that priest and congregation would face east during eucharistic prayer, as directions on axis weast-east in that particular culture would be made to have dichotomal symbolic meaning of sunset-sunrise,-ressurected christ,-redeemer, death-life, profanum-sacrum, fallen world-heavenly jerusalem.
Altar itself doesnt symbolise or contain divinity but is a place where events of incarnation and redempting sacrifice are reanacted in both symbolic and real way.
What bernardo and "traditionalists" are forgetting is that versus populum cant remove sense of divinity from mass (especially in culture that doesnt have in its symbolic language turning east as image of anticipation second coming of christ) because for catholic ultimately not direction per se is important, but what happens during mass to eucharistic substances.
Divinity becomes immanent, incarnate during act of eucharistic prayer regardless of if it is ad orientem or versus populum. And congregation take part in that divinity during communion not only in symbolic but also in very litteral sense.
Meaning that mass conveys is the same in ortodox and catholic churches but it can be very different in protestant churches. Versus populum or ad orientem is not important at all, almost superficial, in building sense if participation in divinity, if we compare that to impact of doctrine of real presence or its abandonemend can have in peoples mind.
Great conversation - and true humility and courage from Kastrup. And adding some important insights to one of the biggest themes in Dante's Comedy as well; understanding yourself in the bigger picture. This is very much in the idea of aligning your own Free Will (your choices) with the Divine Will. The metaphorical voluntarily giving back your Free Will, to the Divine. And thus discover a whole new wealth and abundance of meaning.
great comment
I'm so happy to see these two together. Two important minds like these in communication, like the merging of heaven and earth.
Mind blowing and heartfelt conversation. Wow. What a pleasure to listen to. Jonathan, if there’s one thing to add, I wish you would bring up the revelation and grace of Christianity. The whole point to Christianity is that we cannot save ourselves without God reaching out to us, without God’s revelation as someone else in the comments noted about the New Jerusalem.
As Simone Weil said: I need God to take me by force, because, if death, doing away with the shield of the flesh, were to put me face to face with him, I should run away.
Being a recent Catholic convert and attending Mass on a daily basis in Ireland, the priests stand to the side of the alter and face the alter with their back to the laity at every service for at least a certain duration. Loving this dialogue, by the way. Had to edit. This is brilliant stuff. The crossover and integration happening with the "Diamond" (which etymologically bears the word God in it) and Guardian Angel analogies are wonderful.
They're still known to AngloCatholics as "northenders"
@@jamesbarlow6423 haha! That's quite clever 😁
@@conornagle9528 They've been called same for centuries.
This is now one of my favourite conversations on this channel! I'm looking forward to seeing part 2!
Probably the best conversation on the internet in at least the past week.
24:22 around this point I realized how annointed you are, Jonathan ❤
Kastrup is the most important philosopher alive today, IMHO.
100%
agreed
Just listened to this conversation and it was loads wonderful!
Thank you so much for this. A truly amazing conversation and it gives me hope in these dark times.
This is one of my favourite conversations of the year!
As above , so below, Emmet Fox calls this type of conversation 'scientific prayer ' Thank you for the insightful thoughts 💭
Thank you Jonathan, Lisa, and co. Great job with the timestamps! That's how the pros do it. Haha
it's so helpful with a deep conversion like this
@@ButterBobBriggs I'm delighted you found it worthwhile. God bless!
@@MoreChrist I see Bernado is unattainable via email :) Hoping you will see this. Can you provide the name and spelling of the bishop in the 1500s he was referring to with the treasure. I would like to read up on him. Thanks.
@@leondbleondb sure! It's Nicholas of Cusa. He is mentioned in the book, God's Philosophers by James Hannam.
The best thing I have listened to in years.
I am really thrilled to hear how much Dr. Kastrup knows about Orthodox Christianity!
Big fan of both. This should be an interesting cross-over.
I didn't have time to listen to this entire interview, but I think answers to these ideas/ thoughts/ questions can be found and are greatly and wonderfully supplied in Vladimir Lossky's book, THE MYSTICAL THEOLOGY OF THE EASTERN CHURCH. This entire book is excellent, insightful, thorough, and well explained. Chapter 5, "Created Being," is an amazing explanation of man, what he was created to be, what the fall brought upon him, and what he can still become, in measure. I highly recommend it. Human reason cannot find answers to these questions, but God has revealed them to those whom He has been please to enlighten (and for our help), and to those who acknowledge that we can never know these things entirely. . . . What really stands out to me in the chapter mentioned, very briefly, is that we must totally surrender our will to God's will. "The person who asserts himself as an individual, and shuts himself up to his particular nature, far from realizing himself fully, becomes impoverished (pp. 123-4)." He goes on to say, "The person called to union with God, called to realize by grace the perfect assimilation of our nature to the divine nature, is bound to a mutilated nature defaced by sin and torn apart from conflicting desires" (p. 125)--and much more. --Hope I'm not off with my comment here. I've been known to misunderstand things. If so, I ask your forgiveness.
That book changed my life.
@@MoreChrist Everyone should read & deeply consider/contemplate it's rich depths of meaning! It's truly amazing and wonderful! God is most wonderful and amazing, and I don't say that lightly!
@@MoreChrist me too.
This might be my favorite dialogue with Dr. Kastrup ever!!!
This was outstanding, knew nothing of Bernardo. Great honest conversation with no malice whatsoever. Excellent.
Best conversation of the year.
This is just amazing. So genuinley thankful to the core for you two coming togethter. Thank you. Love you both.
Pageau - what a great conversation! Great to see this connection. ... This is unrelated, I wanted to suggest a topic, have you considered the symbolism of Mexico? There's a lot there - the Virgin of Guadalupe, the symbols of the Aztecs, the Eagle on the Cactus devouring the Serpent. Anyway, just a thought. thank you for your work!
I've been working on it! are you Mexican?
@@RodrigoMera oh good, hope it's going well. I'm a nomad, lived in Mexico as a child and left when I was ten :)
@@mvondoom I was asking you because maybe you have some interesting insights to share.
@@RodrigoMera pues... no se! me gustaria ver como interpreta Pageau el encuentro entre los Aztecas y los Espagnoles. Tambien como Mexico incorpora los simbolos Christianos y los hace mas ricos y varios. Tal vez el cuento de la Virgen de Guadalupe seria un buen lugar para empezar. I really haven't thought about it too much tho! good luck!
@@mvondoom ruclips.net/video/eyz7hMTRHKA/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/S4witzGuUXo/видео.html
This is amazing one of my fav talks with Pagaue and I’m not even half way through 😄😄
Thank you Bernardo and Jonathan for sharing such a wonderful exploration of our existence. God bless you both.
I'm so proud of you Joanathan. Thank god for putting me in the right line.
on my second viewing now, and i'm comprehending the points far greater and enjoying the conversation even more. still learning more and more, thank you for this discussion it has really opened my mind in new ways
Jonathon should talk with Graham Harman, that would be another Meaningful discussion..
Totally, the object-oriented ontology folks definitely have something interesting to say regarding the Verveake and Pageau discussions on Angels "as hyperobjects".
Thank you for this.
Wow, this is so very good, glad you reposted it Jonathan, thank you!
Do what is meaningful, not expedient... Stand Up with your shoulders straight...Treat yourself like someone you are responsible for.... Suffering is inevitable...to me, this wonderful conversation actually corroborates Jordan Peterson's 12 rules for life. But then again, maybe it's because this is a special corner of the internet and the algorithm just works.
What an excellent conversation. I thought this conversation went much better than Bernardo and Vervaeke’s conversation. It would be great if you guys could talk more about idealism next time. I’m not an idealist but I’m wondering if Jonathan is.
has any conversation with Vervaeke ever been good?
@@veilofreality I’ve never seen any other bad conversations with Vervaeke…
@@mariog1490 I'm not saying he isn't a smart and insightful thinker, but a good, clear orator/speaker he surely isn't. Following him through his neurotically cerebral tirades, is, at least for me, almost painful.
@@veilofreality Verveake has a lot to offer, maybe you drank from the wrong well (discussions). He was given a prize; naming him the best, or one of the best professors at the university of Toronto some years back. Ironically, for being a very clear and articulate lecturer that has the ability to make salient whats most important through the use of the socratic method. Maybe you're a bit sensitive, or simply lacking in obversational abilities... Although, I can agree that he has some annoying tendencies that surfaces every now and then, I cant say I've found any interesting intellectual ever that doesn't have any. Your comment is a great example of why you don't throw pearls to swine.
@@kevinfaltin4856 your comment on the other hand is pretty clear evidence of pride, vainglory and prelest.
This is one of the best conversations I heard from you both!
Wow, an excellent excellent conversation
15:15
"I have had the experience of resolving certain dissociative states that I have had for years, and in retrospect (and this will sound funny, maybe even sound contradictory) I know that I was both sides of that dissociation. For the longest time -- if you would have asked me in the past, 'are you feeling this and that?' I would have said 'No, I don't feel that at all. That's not how I feel at all. That's not me, it's not part of my world.' Today, I look back and I realize -- 'No, I *was* feeling that way. I was always feeling that way. I just didn't recognize it to myself.'"
The sewage flows along with the pure water. This is the nature of the mind in its state of seperation from its true nature...so be it...but as non dualists we can try...again and again...to foreground that Isness... the Awareness...in which everything flows.
Living in community with others is the way we mature...we have then to find compsssion and empathy no matter the circumstance.
Loved Jonathan's response at the end...about messiness and smelliness of community. Bernado you hit the nail on the head to raise the tendency to romanticise spirituality...but surely once people are hooked there is only one way forward...ie. serving others seeing Spirit in all...and grounded in love and knowledge of our true nature in Consciousness. Remembering here Rupert Spira's...the screen ...on which falls the movie of life... the screen embraces all dualities. Bernardo was so right to remind us in giving we diminish the separated self that clouds the screen.
Wonderful to see you two. Thank you.
We will like to request the host, if he could invite Bernardo again and hold a discussion with an other philosopher theologian, and touch in this specific point. I feel this is the most important point of contemplation in the idealist- religious discussion. 🙏
Now this is an interesting conversational pairing!
This is fascinating!
Grateful to have my family's pretty sounding images of guardian angels grounded in something I actually experience and revere in my life already. A wealth of symbolism and tradition opened up to me once more.
Bernardo, the most complete understanding of will has been suggested by John G Bennett. Here is a sample quote from his book Deeper Man. "We tend to talk about will almost entirely in human terms, but it is as important cosmologically as it is psychologically. Will enters into everything that exists, even the most inert and passive states of matter. This does not mean of course that there a tiny beings inside rocks or very large super beings inside planets and stars. Will is the dynamic of change everywhere and at all levels. When it is associated with a self-renewing body there is a living being. Even here we have fallen into the trap of talking about an 'it' as if it were an entity or object."
No way! I'm such a fan of both!
The zooming in and out (micro/macro)on was excellent in this conversation :)
1:26:00 self-sacrifice or losing yourself through serving… sounds noble and makes sense although a bit of an interesting paradox. How do you know your motives aren’t self-serving tho? Is it enough to serve in order to get / be fulfilled? Or is it service above all else? Can you even continue to serve without any return / fulfillment? I’m not sure how to think about that…
isn't it a natural emotional response to feel good after helping someone, it's almost unavoidable
@@ionatanaflamestyle yes I suppose it’s inevitable whether we’re doing it out of “pure” motives or whether we’re being selfish. Does it matter if that’s what motivates us - serving primarily for me to be fulfilled? How can we know if we’re being motivated by selfish motives or not?
Preliked. Big fan of Bernardo here.
19:44 profound... In the Bhakti tradition it is preferable that prayer is listening (as we chant the Holy Names) and that the devotee provides the most desirable home for God in the heart because he has no demands of Him.
1:43:25 enlightenment is a shit show 💯 I feel this in my bones! Reality is not divorced from spirituality except by our own thinking; it's language which creates the impossible chasm.... Empathy is certainly a form of enlightenment and I haven't figured my way out of it yet. 🤣
As a cultural Christian having grown up in northeast US I was/am a rather ardent secularist, even have had periods of militant atheism. But after five and half decades of experience I have been lately opened to broadening a search ‘for meaning’, which has landed me in place where I am now being exposed to thought akin to those in this conversation. I have been paying a lot of attention to Bernardo and Jonathan and adjacent others ‘the algorithms’ have packaged and delivered to my attention lol.
Being a newbie to this ‘realm’ I’ve been exposed to what feels likes epiphanies or synchronicities that ‘smack’ against my consciousness in a good way,lol.
As an example or consequence of the present moment of exposure to technology and image processing , I got a big smack. There was a point in the video where an image of Moloch was superimposed on/over the moderator’s room and when it ‘dissolved’ the relevant space showed a vase of flowers and Boom.
I saw the flowers as a symbol of beauty or the good , as an actualization of the potential for beauty to ‘become’ or the good to be realized or instanuated (I may mention I’ve been exploring the Whiteheadian realm too ). The epiphany, for me, was that as opposed to the idea of Moloch ‘receiving’ a sacrifice for the promised immediate satisfaction of receiving a ‘good’ , the promise of the good being instantiated in the flowers also carries the possibility of renewal of the good, whereas the surrendering of the sacrifice to Moloch is the destruction of the possibility for renewal of the good.
The beauty,good from the flower becomes or is instantiated by the process of living and dying in the temporal sense. Life and regeneration are the ‘mechanisms’ by which beauty and the good are actualized. A sacrifice to Moloch for immediate satisfaction is the destruction of the possibility for continued generation of the good. This is somewhat against Johnathan’s notion of ritual sacrifice as a recognition of receiving a higher good, but perhaps points to the responsibility of ‘picking’ the right or correct ‘form’ of giving ‘up’.
The other synchronicity was while scribbling notes during the episode they later referenced Noah, which folded this loose idea back to the idea of regeneration of life. The gathering of the animals can be seen as the preservation of the constituent needs of the process of good/beauty that are generated through the process of becoming ,living. Without the ‘pairs’ the actualization of the process of the good ‘unfolding’ is cut off.
The ‘wrong kind’ of sacrifice is pure destruction absent the possibility of a renewed or continuing ability for the generation of ‘goodness’ ‘becoming’. Burning it ‘all up’ in cosmic conflagration releases an all consuming flame , but the flame is temporary and leaves nought for becoming.
Moloch isn’t just a symbol of an immediate destruction , it’s more a piecemeal view of total destruction.
What on earth is going on here? I saw those two talking to each other in my wildest dreams, and know they make it happened.
I was thinking the same ^^
Talking about the boundaries of individual identities; they aren't arbitrary as such, just so completely framed and grouped in ways that *we as humans* cannot grasp at God-like levels of certain knowing. at 1:04ish mark
Church is *not* a building. Peace 🕊
Glad to see Jonathan finally speaking with an idealist as opposed to a panpsychist - a much more coherent approach in my opinion.
Big thanks to everyone involved, this was a fantastic meeting of the minds (or... was it?)
Jokes aside, I would also like to hear you two discuss Jung a bit more in-depth. Perhaps have Bernardo respond to Bruno Bracco's "Thoughts On The Jungian Perspective On Symbolism," or Jonathan's accusation that Jung reduces everything to the psyche? The latter indictment, after all, takes on a wholly different meaning within the framework of Kastrup's analytical idealism. Keep it up both of you, and thank you for putting yourselves out there!
Psyche is problematized only if you strip it of its ancient understanding and equate it with so-called academic experimental notions of "psychology"
Seconding this suggestion!
And adding-in whatever way one might find it useful-that Bernardo's recent book "Decoding Jung's Metaphysics" addresses this question quite directly...
*Spoilers*
Bernardo characterizes Jung explicitly as an idealist/non-dualist. Thus, (as you suggest) Jung's "psyche" is not merely the personal mind, but in fact something much more similar to mind at large/universal consciousness/Brahman/God.
@@ark-L I liked your comment. I only today discovered Bernardo and have just ordered his works. You are absolutely right about the individual psyche and its cosmic analog in God or Brahman. In the Chaldean Oracles it is equated with the World Soul/Cosmic Soul. As for Jung's non-dualism, I believe he was very careful to insist upon accepting duality as a precondition of our existence prior to any wholeness or Oneness one may attain from the painful ripping apart by the opposites and the slow gathering together of individuation.
@@ark-L What I find frustrating about Pageau's misunderstanding of Jung is precisely the manifest incomprehension of the Traditionalist School as well as religious thinkers like Martin Buber and their misguided pious fears of associating anything "psychological" (pertaining to the psyche) with God in order to preserve His absolute transcendence. It is still a common misunderstanding of Jung's thought.
@@abbasalchemist Excited for you to take in his "material"! haha
Ahh, interesting point. I may have Jung wrong on this, but could you say that he sees this duality as occurring *within* one's personal psyche/Self experience and that, though it may precede our existence as an ego, it does not precede the psyche-proper from which it (and indeed everything else) emerges? In other words, might the individuation process in its entirety be seen as a movement from Oneness, to duality, back to Oneness, which, taken together, is nonetheless an expression of non-dual reality? (apologies if my terminology is wack and/or if this just comes across as gibberish... I find comprehending, let alone trying to re-present Jung with any sort of consistency to be a challenging affair lol)
I'm afraid I'm not very familiar with Buber, but I 100% share your frustration with Pageau on the traditionalist front!! I do recall him in the past at least giving some reasons for his downplaying of perennialism/traditionalism; mostly, he thinks it assumes a view from nowhere-which he'd say is impossible to attain-and that one needs to inhabit a "story" (culture/religious tradition) to be able to properly find connection with the underlying "pattern" of reality. He's also expressed an aversion to the new-age perennialist-adjacent types who cherry-pick different religious ideas to fuse together their own hyper-palatized mystical Frankensteinian version-without all the crusts and prickly parts. I can sympathize with the latter point, but I think perennialism might be better seen as coming about not via a view-from nowhere, but rather a view from EVERYWHERE-i.e. by a kind of embodied superimposing of the various traditions to find the core of what is shared between all of them.
I do want to clarify one thing: Nietzsche was sick since childhood, with constant headaches and vomits, even the eye that got blind in his late years was diagnosed with a malfunction when he was young.
That was not surprising since there were several antecedents of mental illness in his family, his own father died with a mental illness.
There is a bigger chance of his sickness to be a cause of his disposition towards life than the other way around.
Sounds like materialist hand-waving.
@@TheGerogero Is there a counterargument?
@@alfredosaint-jean9660 Yes, but I don't care.
Or maybe his family had mental illness because they also fostered a poor disposition towards life that culminated in him
Thanks
This was really good !
have you ever read Hegel? because there were so many things on this conversation that just remain me to Hegel's ideas.
This is a very subtle form of spiritual warfare be on guard Jonathan and keep up the good work was very interesting how your guest was repelled by the notion of a guardian angel and yet drawn to the notion of a Daemon it was very interesting how you are being pulled up to a higher ness by your guardian angel and yet he was being pushed to a lower nest by his Daemon like he wants to dig around in the earth and under the Earth and uncover an ancient Bishop's lost teachings (0ccult). ✝✝✝🔥
Yes I immediately thought that this guy seems more to be suggesting from entity possession and in need of help removing it rather than extrapolating/projecting it to a theory of existence per se. He has clearly suffered a lot in his life which is about red flag re getting checked for entities.
@@thegoldenvoid ✝️✝️✝️
the daimon is a well documented part to existence found by many philosophers. it in that sense would be a philosophical take on a force beyond our normal scope of experience
This is a very deep conversation.
Je suis tellement fière d'avoir le nom de famille Pageau maintenant. J'adore ton charisme Jonathan tu m'as redonné l'espoir que j'avais perdu.
Not many conversations, including the little ive heard so far individually from you both, have expanded and developed my metaphysical models like this one has, for example the fractal analogy regarding the mind of china and how you can apply that to the individual and reality
yeah that was an amazing tangent they went on
Thanks you for this interview
Bernardo makes the point that we have romanticized and cartoonified the spiritual and transcendence/enlightenment and this makes it banal and unreal. The example was given of someone whose home life is a mess, but they are practicing yoga religiously. Perhaps this "wrong way" of trying to achieve transcendence is pointing to another and more profound way of approaching it. This would be through facing the suffering that is inherent in human life. Through a deep, honest acceptance of suffering, without resistance, we may diminish the ego and experience an awakening to the transcendent, connecting upward to the Divine. We may move from darkness, chaos, and disorder at the bottom, upward to the light, order, and unity with something greater at the top.
I have never loved Pageau as much as I love him now.
Please get Bernardo back on! Allocate 3 hours next time...it still won't be enough time xD
Been waiting a long time for this
The idea of the diamond might also be the result of the imperfect perception of the action of separate entities, the mid point between that of the guardian angel and, on the other side, of the demonic. Which might very well be plural, though, some early fathers talk about the existence of personal demons.
I was happy that Pageau mentioned Dante. I feel that it's far too infrequent that these folks who talk about these subjects mention poets. Poets deal with these ideas. Read them!!! Coleridge deals with this stuff.
Coleridge is amazing
As a Christian, how could Pageau NOT challenge Kastrup on his position on the afterlife?
Do a research on Orthodox position on afterlife
@@forthegloryofthelord "do a research" lol. What about my comment makes you think I don't already understand the Orthodox Church's position on the afterlife?
@@Zevelyon are you asking what in particular made me think so? In 12 word sentence? I guess it was "NOT"
@@forthegloryofthelord I was clearly saying he should have challenged Kastrup.
I just saw this. Proverb 16: 9 'Humans plan their course,but the Lord establishes thair steps'
01:40:30 that right there is Owen Barfields final participation.
DOES ANYBODY HAVE THE CITATIONS FOR ST MAXIMUS THE CONFESSOR + GREGORY OF NYSSA? THANKS I’LL STOP SHOUTING
I feel like consciousness is better though of as a mode that manifests on all scales of reality in different ways. A mode on certain scale is able to perceive other modes as conscious only if they are the same (or, perhaps more generally, gelling with each other).
Which would mean that, entities such as nation states, have a consciousness which is imperceptible to our consciousness, because in a way unlike our own.
Right around here 01:06:00, I'd say you don't need to get bogged down with boundaries as I see it, because I think boundary is a too strict a concept to use in the analytical mode leading to their indefinite proliferation. That's because that concept is too sharp, it's like trying to understand the night sky while having only a pinprick of light available at a time. You might be much better off using fields as a basic concept and probabilistic language. In connection with this, Sheldrake's The Presence of the Past and his concept of morphogenetic fields and habits of nature comes to mind.
What about thinking about those wholes (higher-order entities) as having membranes of sorts, or soft fuzzy boundaries? Or perhaps, let's ask this: why think in terms of spatiotemporal localization?
Overall though I think we just need better, more flexible, ontology that is not particularly concerned with space or time (that is to say, it includes them and transcends them). The process-relational ontology and biological metaphors I think are the way forward here, as expounded in Dupré, Nicholson, Everyhing Flows (available online for free).
I'm clueless about this just as anybody. It's a mind-bending topic, if there ever was one. We must loosen our habitual grasp on things we think we know for sure.
Dr Iain McGilchrist's work is very helpful in this area, as well, I think. He points to relations as primary to relata in the structures of reality- macro and micro. Right down to our neurobiology. I agree: adopting more organic metaphors is necessary. This is probably something worth exploring with Jonathan and Bernardo next time. Thanks.
@@MoreChrist yep definitely. I'm a big fan of Iain McGilchrist, just working through The Matter with Things.
It is not a cartoonification if you see it as the relationship with the Father who is nurturing you, disciplining you, and forgiving you... you are a child that often fails, but you still have a loving relationship... you are forgiven, sanctified, and promised to partake in inheritance.
A Hiidden Life is amazing
Interesting discussion. I have some concerns with his thought though from an Orthodox perspective. Effectively, his idea of theosis sounded like something of a natural evolution of the human mind. For example, it is framed like this: "Maybe one day we will evolve to grasp the mystery of unity in multiplicity." However, there's an inherent contradiction in his system of thought then. At the outset he indicated, "All things decay into dissociation and multiplicity because it's inherent in their nature given enough time." At the same time it is claimed that "nature can resolve that problem through evolution given enough time." I do not believe one can have it both ways - nature cannot decay and simultaneously transcend itself (an appeal to natural selection doesn't solve it - it just goes around the cycle of death and decay forever); however, I do think this contradiction in secular thought does reveal something of the hope and thirst that mankind has in their hearts for all things to be reconciled into unity in God. That can be a moment of conversion for many of us former secular materialists and agnostics. I was one of them and eventually I took the leap and have never looked back. Glory to Jesus Christ.
what about unity of self and a higher form of existence , maybe this can only occur once we live this world. this world really feels like the preschool to the grander scope of existence post-death
"The sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being" C.G.Jung
35:00 this is why Jonathan should talk to Mark Vernon.
In the Christian relation between multiplicity and unity, particularity dissolves into the singular absolute, only to be reconstituted with a fuller and more concrete identity than it had before.
I feel like Bernard's objection to the imagery of The New Jerusalem is partially due to its unobtainability. It may be helpful to point out that this unreachable nature of the Divine City is explicit in scripture. We are not expected to be able to work our way to it, or build it with our effort. The New Jerusalem is "The city built without hands, whos founder and builder is God." Incorporating this is a fatal blow to our mortal pride, to which I have no doubt some aspect of Bernard's daemon will strenuously object. @More Christ
is the New Jerusalem supposed to be on Earth or in a more heavenly realm, because i doubt a god or God would come and build here during these times. What would its purpose be? Can you refresh my memory of what the New Jerusalem stands for?
@@ionatanaflamestyle Think of it as the perfected combination of the mountain of God, the temple, the pyramids, the garden of Eden, the university, and the home you never had.
I would suggest that the empirical evidence of the consciousness of cities, countries, etc that cognates to the human mind is its infrastructure. Roads, at the most basic level, no matter how big or small.
One of the scarier realizations is that we have turned our own houses into images of human beings; they have a circulatory system in plumbing, lungs in HVAC, nerves with electrical, and now with the advent of "smart home systems" they have the beginnings of a brain.
Incarnational reality - Corpus Christi! The faith is rooted in the messy present reality. It has to be lived out so that it isn’t reserved to just a spiritual philosophical realm.
Dear Jonathan,
Please do a video on building our ark here in Canada. Does this involve retreating to the mountains, becoming self-sufficient or building a Christian community outside of the city?
"Acquire the spirit of peace" and the light of Christ in us will help others discover their inner peace here on earth.
Praying for inner peace for all of humanity🙏
Building an ark in one of the most comfortable, liberal, Western countries in the world?
Just my thoughts, I think the ark is the Church. I don’t think we’re supposed to flee trouble and persecution by heading to the hills, I think we’re supposed to endure it in communion with the Church, the Body of Christ. Forsaking life for Life.
my are u delusional..
The daimon seems to me to be somewhat approaching the trans/impersonal mystery of the Divine.
Thankfully we have moved past the absurd idea of "mentalism" centuries ago, best left in the dustbin!
You could still be deluding yourself with the diamant or the angel/devil pulling you, and yet it still be a metaphysical influence or a being higher than yourself within a hierarchy, its just in the form that yiur your mind conceives it based on your cultural/religious influences
Jonathan, you should talk with Rupert Sheldrake. He has a biological/chemical theory that seems to address the problem of higher beings or structures. It's called Morphic Resonance Fields.
Keep up the good work, bye-bye.
I’m reading Kastrup’s book right now and it’s about realism vs idealism-both new terms for me. Kastrup is an idealist, but we would say Pageau is too, correct?
i guess we'll find out in conversation part 2
What is the soul?
1:28:00 Like in the time of Noah: The Ark on Mount Carmel, Haifa, Israel.
So the Catholic priest facing the congregation is new as of the late 1960s early 1970s, and there are still traditional liturgies celebrated in Latin that I believe Barnardo may find much more compelling and having preserved the ancient faith.
1:24:22 old bernardo reinvents the wheel...christians love saying "when people are big god is small"
Kenosis is about finding yourself, not extinguishing yourself. Pageau was truly unprepared to counter Kastrup's Pantheism. He often seems to want to conform to Pantheistic ideas.