Yeah this was always kinda the point. While the Imperium does suck, they are the only “human faction” in the universe, so of course they are the heroes. The Imperium winning is the best thing that can happen for the humans, all the other races want you dead 😂
chaos is mostly human votan are technically human, more human then their krieg rewrite that should still just cause demonhosts as soon as gw remembers any lore its a dumb argument
@ashardalondragnipurake so you are telling me that people are more likely to relate to space dwarfs and literal evil incarnate (with everything except the black legion being basically non human) than with the Imperium??? Like, I'm sorry, but I think you're just wrong on that one.
@@dr.remerb8011 you said they needed to be human both are human and no, night lords, death guard, world eaters, the thousand sons sorcerers, iron warriors, word bearers, emperors children are all extremely human and all of them are alpharius even more human then most guardsman that need to be plotarmored pr figureheads fact you dont see them as such just shows how far we have fallen you want marvel instead of a deep story about a real believable world some stories about word bearers would do the world good, as its what is coming, that part of humanity you only reject them as human because you fear the reflection they are
To your first point, they've bent on that -- "The Infinite & The Divine" and "The Twice-Dead King" are now considered classics in the franchise and they focus not only on aliens but on aliens "reincarnated" in robotic bodies and who are, at best, indifferent to all other life in the cosmos. Also, Ork-focused books have become surprisingly popular as well...
The infinite and divine proves it’s doable with the right author. Robert Rath or Chris Wraith’s style for scars could do wonders for any Xenos fans if the right pairing is made. Otherwise you get what has happened in movie/shows. A bad entry tanks interest in the franchise (or faction in this case). It takes time before they are willing to try again and the next entry needs to beat cynicism and disinterest to succeed. The terminator IP comes to mind. Upset with a bad book for one Primarch or legion and there are plenty more within loyalist or chaos.
I think the rogue trader game that recently came out is a bit closer to what you were asking for. It certainly doesn’t portray the imperium as bad but it does show flaws in its power systems, how it treats people, etc. You can even be nice to aliens too!
dude, dont try to logic with this creature. this is just another servant of slannesh here to ruin the hobby and turn it into 50% female custodes and 75% female space marines of color.
It really depends on what you mean by "old 40k". The current tone has remained more or less consistent since 3rd Edition, and that's north of 25 years now. If you're looking at a radically different tone to the setting you're essentially looking at Rogue Trader. That's a bit like looking at pre-4e WHFB; it's essentially a different setting in all but name. The reason why so much 40k content has abandoned any kind of political commentary is because, quite honestly, there wasn't really much of it to begin with. 40k has NEVER been a satire, it has very little to say about the topics it covers. It was, from its conception, a fantasy setting ported into space. It often *feels* like satire because it "borrows" so heavily from works that are satirical; Robocop, Starship Troopers, Dune, Judge Dredd, all of these have political messages. Warhammer copies the aesthetic of these properties without the politics, just as Warhammer Fantasy copies much of the aesthetics of Tolkien while leaving aside much of his messaging on the nature of war, English culture and Christianity. That's fine, by the way, it doesn't diminish the property in any way to admit that it isn't actually trying to push a political narrative.
All 3 make sense, but the last one is the most important. Money is the main thing, always, when you think about a company's actions towards it's own IP! Anyway as long as people are smart enough to separate things it's fine to enjoy the Imperium as the "good guys" in a setting of all shades of evil. Everyone else seems evil viewed from outside!
I left for greener pastures. Still good looking models. Books are still decent but i cant buy from black library its all digital junk i want books. I have space
Imperium = heroes? I disagree. The Imperium is closer to the protagonist of the setting. That's doesn't necessarily mean they're the heroes. Money is the prime motivator behind GeeDubs. If you 'follow the money' you'll unearth their motivation for, pretty much, everything.
It boils down to the pursuit of greater market share. The universe of 40k was very niche with a very dedicated fanbase that understood that there really wasn't a good guy in this, just various shades of justifying atrocities. It's like slasher movies, people cheer Jason or Freddy Kruger but no one wants that in real life. In pursuit of the 'greater market' they had to tone down (and frankly dumb down) the grimdark to give the average, uninformed, uninterested potential customer something they can find appealing. Potential Customer: Who are those guys in big armor? They look cool. GW Sales Rep: They're the space marines. They're the militant, hyperviolent product of supremely xenophobic, fascist reason of human supremist. A guy who was a living god created them thousands of years ago but now he's a rotting corpse worshipped by trillions of people living in squalor. Potential Customer: Ew, neverminded.
If you think Warhammer is woke then maybe the problem is you. At this point it sounds like anything more progressive than Birth of a Nation is "too woke" in your book
There are two outcomes as presented by GW. The Imperium conquers the galaxy and humanity is saved, or the imperium collapses and human life is extinguished. There is no peace with races that consume and war with no capacity for diplomacy. The Imperium isn't evil or good, it is neutral. They are the only power structure capable of meeting these threats head on. GW has made the stakes too high to allow for splinter factions that shake up the human status quo but still somehow be "more good" than chaos. I believe a lot of people gravitate towards the Imperium as being "the good guys" is because everyone realizes without a unified Imperium, the story of humanity ends. Without the God Emperor, the story of humanity ends, and shocking as it may be, most people will go with "the most good" and "the most human" in a lot of media. People want our species to win, thus they gravitate towards the Imperium because the alternatives are much, much worse. The only way out of any of this writing wise is to dial the stakes back to a point where a split humanity would be capable of existing in the first place. Regardless of satire, people look for the heroes of a story no matter how flawed they are. Perhaps Guilliman's return and his declaration of the Realm of Ultramar being reinstated alongside other Primarchs returning, we will see a narrative driven split of the Imperium and that will give the lore breathing room to explore the idea of a multi-factonal Imperium that isn't schismed between Loyalty and Heresy. Doubt it.
They were doing a lot of games. I don't think one like you said would work too well. As the primary citizens of the Imperium have no idea whats going on in the major. Like life is either shit or your born with a golden spoon in your mouth. Not unlike today. Reading a news feed that's like, 'Hey, we beat the filthy xenos on planet X!' But even then they're not aware of the greater going on in the verse. A great view of this would be Necrpolis by Dan Abnett who did much of the original lore for non-space marine imperium.
One of the best 40k writing I have ever read was a series of short stories about an Ork Warboss. I think it was Adi Woods character, or based on him. In short, he was hired by Nazdreg, and over the course of the series we see him go from being a failed warboss, to learning to become a Warlord, powerful enough to rival Nazdreg. Each story was like a Battle report, where we got to know WHY the Orkz were fighting, and how it went. So writing from the point of view of a Tyranid may be too low, and the point of view of an Eldar may be too high ... but the Orkz are close enough to humans to be just right!
There's a few points to consider: 1) The satire was clearest in 1st and 2nd ed because the roots and inspiration for the setting were clearer. 2000AD, Dune, Starship Troopers, GW borrowed from everything. Now, it has coalesced into its own thing. 2) From 3rd edition onwards, GW really leaned in on the grimdark. It was obvious in the artwork. Much grittier, much darker in tone (surprisingly!) and it kinda went through it's "Christian Bale Batman" phase around this time. 3) Media literacy in the target audience has dropped sharply. 1st edition was essentially D&D with a few extra toys. The average gamer was a young adult to middle-aged man. In the search forore customers, GW has aimed its marketing at an ever-younger audience. It is inevitable that a young teen isn't going to see the joke in the setting and is going to focus on the cool toys and the idea of black-and-white "goodies" and "baddies". On a slightly related note, it's what populist movements rely on when trying to find new recruits. To remedy that, GW would either have to seriously gin up the satire, practically to the point where you're being told the joke line-by-line or people will have to engage with the lore on the level of which it was originally written. Since this is a hobby and not an English class, I don't see either working.
what this creature is essentially saying is, she thinks warhammer used to make fun of right wingers and now its leaned into that aspect of it because that is what people actually like and she doesnt like it because she is a lefty knob who hates white men most likely so she wants to pervert it and make it more diverse and crap. these are the kind of people we need to be gate keeping out of it. the company needs to be taken over from within by people are not mentally defective lefties.
You pretty much nailed it. When it was 12 smarmy British 20-somethings in a leaky office the satire was right there and heavy. When it was bought by a corporate entity with shareholders and suddenly had to make more and more profit every year, they had to cut out the attitude and sell toys to kids. So they hammed up the edgelord grimdark and cut the smarmy winky anti-establishment nods.
Allot of the lore is dumbed down allot to appeal to a US market. GW has been making an obvious big push to cater more to an American audience. The way rules are written, the language used in writing, the lore being less grimdark and tongue in cheek. Americans dont understand how all that works. You mention Birmingham The Black Planet to an American they pop off about slavery and racism because they automatically assume Birmingham in the USA. Using terms in rules such as "first floor" to describe the ground floor of buildings...to us brits thats baffling and cuses communication issues. Legalise in rules writing appels more to an American audience because its easier to abuse and misinterpret. All this then goes into the lore. Keep it dumb and easy and without flavour to appeal to a market largely devoid of any interest in that
you dont need to write from the perspective of the alien to write grim dark look at desert raiders, where nids raid a dessert no plotarmor, no bs imperial pandering just a good story and the key to the good story is that you dont know page 1 how it ends, same as storm of iron both sides are looked at both sides have characters you dont want to cheer for you can only cheer for the flawed hero because you hope that he gets out to hope you need to not know but we know page 1 keep writing from the imperial perspective, see the horror trough human eyes if you cant empathize with anything that doesnt look like you just have them lose thats all you need to do to turn a batman comic into conrad kurze, have him lose 40k has just become HFJ, and bad HFJ and thats sad you wouldnt write from the perspective of the norn queen, that would make the nids less, they have been lessened by primitivehumanizing already by the trash ultramarine writer who needed weak human fallibility to allow for his plotarmor all you need to do is write from the perspective of humans getting the sht beaten out of them cool side story of a genestealer escaping on the final refugee ships there was one book that does this, i think one of the wordbearer omnibus books, where one of the escaping heroes saves a child along the way as he outruns the hive in a snowcrawler why does the narrator need to win its fine if the imperium is the narrator most of the time but why is it always winning tell the story of the narrators last moments dont even tell all characters last moments, some just get split off and lost in the shadow have the final pages be claws trough flesh and the acid reducing him into easily digestible slurry then have an epilogue of an inquisitors party walking the ruins of the stripped planet finding small hints of the unmentioned characters last moments
marines sell the most models because they are the posterboys they arnt the posterboys because they sell the most if every advertisement is marines, every release needs to include more marines, if every trailer is marines, if every poster has marines, every book needs atleast 3 marines yea new people in 40k are going to go for the marines then they grow up and go for one of the not boring non human factions but if they did their setting justice and showed any of the cool factions, like tyranids or kroot those would sell just fine when was the last time a greater knarlok was even seen you cant even buy them without custom ordering them and then it takes 6 months to arrive, usually with something broken wonder why kroot arnt the most sold faction
"James workshop wants to sell us toys" Well dont let me disturb your intersectional feminist analisys of Warhammer 40k here. But your remark kinda sets the tone for your rant.
yeah, i can hear the hatred of white male space marine models selling the best dripping from her attempted disarming tone. this is the kind of trash GW is hiring btw. boycott continues.
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GW wants be to Marvel Studios and be 'for everybody'.
GW needs to be purged of these heretics.
Warhammer is for anybody, not everybody
Now plot twist we also see the Imperium as the heros because "drum rolls" they are human. And the others aren't.
Well as a human id rather celebrate a human, rather than a cockroach
Yeah this was always kinda the point. While the Imperium does suck, they are the only “human faction” in the universe, so of course they are the heroes. The Imperium winning is the best thing that can happen for the humans, all the other races want you dead 😂
chaos is mostly human
votan are technically human, more human then their krieg rewrite that should still just cause demonhosts as soon as gw remembers any lore
its a dumb argument
@ashardalondragnipurake so you are telling me that people are more likely to relate to space dwarfs and literal evil incarnate (with everything except the black legion being basically non human) than with the Imperium??? Like, I'm sorry, but I think you're just wrong on that one.
@@dr.remerb8011 you said they needed to be human
both are human
and no, night lords, death guard, world eaters, the thousand sons sorcerers, iron warriors, word bearers, emperors children are all extremely human and all of them are alpharius
even more human then most guardsman that need to be plotarmored pr figureheads
fact you dont see them as such just shows how far we have fallen
you want marvel instead of a deep story about a real believable world
some stories about word bearers would do the world good, as its what is coming, that part of humanity
you only reject them as human because you fear the reflection they are
To your first point, they've bent on that -- "The Infinite & The Divine" and "The Twice-Dead King" are now considered classics in the franchise and they focus not only on aliens but on aliens "reincarnated" in robotic bodies and who are, at best, indifferent to all other life in the cosmos. Also, Ork-focused books have become surprisingly popular as well...
@@Awakeandalive1 I just read an Ork focused book! Really enjoyed it tbh
The infinite and divine proves it’s doable with the right author. Robert Rath or Chris Wraith’s style for scars could do wonders for any Xenos fans if the right pairing is made. Otherwise you get what has happened in movie/shows. A bad entry tanks interest in the franchise (or faction in this case). It takes time before they are willing to try again and the next entry needs to beat cynicism and disinterest to succeed. The terminator IP comes to mind. Upset with a bad book for one Primarch or legion and there are plenty more within loyalist or chaos.
I think the rogue trader game that recently came out is a bit closer to what you were asking for. It certainly doesn’t portray the imperium as bad but it does show flaws in its power systems, how it treats people, etc. You can even be nice to aliens too!
dude, dont try to logic with this creature. this is just another servant of slannesh here to ruin the hobby and turn it into 50% female custodes and 75% female space marines of color.
It really depends on what you mean by "old 40k". The current tone has remained more or less consistent since 3rd Edition, and that's north of 25 years now. If you're looking at a radically different tone to the setting you're essentially looking at Rogue Trader. That's a bit like looking at pre-4e WHFB; it's essentially a different setting in all but name.
The reason why so much 40k content has abandoned any kind of political commentary is because, quite honestly, there wasn't really much of it to begin with. 40k has NEVER been a satire, it has very little to say about the topics it covers. It was, from its conception, a fantasy setting ported into space. It often *feels* like satire because it "borrows" so heavily from works that are satirical; Robocop, Starship Troopers, Dune, Judge Dredd, all of these have political messages. Warhammer copies the aesthetic of these properties without the politics, just as Warhammer Fantasy copies much of the aesthetics of Tolkien while leaving aside much of his messaging on the nature of war, English culture and Christianity. That's fine, by the way, it doesn't diminish the property in any way to admit that it isn't actually trying to push a political narrative.
All 3 make sense, but the last one is the most important. Money is the main thing, always, when you think about a company's actions towards it's own IP!
Anyway as long as people are smart enough to separate things it's fine to enjoy the Imperium as the "good guys" in a setting of all shades of evil. Everyone else seems evil viewed from outside!
ts sad people can only see the satire in the old lore
and not the depth
people have become dumber
I left for greener pastures. Still good looking models. Books are still decent but i cant buy from black library its all digital junk i want books. I have space
Imperium = heroes? I disagree.
The Imperium is closer to the protagonist of the setting. That's doesn't necessarily mean they're the heroes.
Money is the prime motivator behind GeeDubs. If you 'follow the money' you'll unearth their motivation for, pretty much, everything.
It boils down to the pursuit of greater market share. The universe of 40k was very niche with a very dedicated fanbase that understood that there really wasn't a good guy in this, just various shades of justifying atrocities. It's like slasher movies, people cheer Jason or Freddy Kruger but no one wants that in real life. In pursuit of the 'greater market' they had to tone down (and frankly dumb down) the grimdark to give the average, uninformed, uninterested potential customer something they can find appealing.
Potential Customer: Who are those guys in big armor? They look cool.
GW Sales Rep: They're the space marines. They're the militant, hyperviolent product of supremely xenophobic, fascist reason of human supremist. A guy who was a living god created them thousands of years ago but now he's a rotting corpse worshipped by trillions of people living in squalor.
Potential Customer: Ew, neverminded.
woke happened to warhammer.
If you think Warhammer is woke then maybe the problem is you. At this point it sounds like anything more progressive than Birth of a Nation is "too woke" in your book
There are two outcomes as presented by GW. The Imperium conquers the galaxy and humanity is saved, or the imperium collapses and human life is extinguished. There is no peace with races that consume and war with no capacity for diplomacy. The Imperium isn't evil or good, it is neutral. They are the only power structure capable of meeting these threats head on.
GW has made the stakes too high to allow for splinter factions that shake up the human status quo but still somehow be "more good" than chaos. I believe a lot of people gravitate towards the Imperium as being "the good guys" is because everyone realizes without a unified Imperium, the story of humanity ends. Without the God Emperor, the story of humanity ends, and shocking as it may be, most people will go with "the most good" and "the most human" in a lot of media. People want our species to win, thus they gravitate towards the Imperium because the alternatives are much, much worse. The only way out of any of this writing wise is to dial the stakes back to a point where a split humanity would be capable of existing in the first place. Regardless of satire, people look for the heroes of a story no matter how flawed they are.
Perhaps Guilliman's return and his declaration of the Realm of Ultramar being reinstated alongside other Primarchs returning, we will see a narrative driven split of the Imperium and that will give the lore breathing room to explore the idea of a multi-factonal Imperium that isn't schismed between Loyalty and Heresy. Doubt it.
Actually, the two ending currently in the setting is Tyranids win or Chaos wins.
They were doing a lot of games. I don't think one like you said would work too well. As the primary citizens of the Imperium have no idea whats going on in the major.
Like life is either shit or your born with a golden spoon in your mouth. Not unlike today. Reading a news feed that's like, 'Hey, we beat the filthy xenos on planet X!' But even then they're not aware of the greater going on in the verse.
A great view of this would be Necrpolis by Dan Abnett who did much of the original lore for non-space marine imperium.
One of the best 40k writing I have ever read was a series of short stories about an Ork Warboss. I think it was Adi Woods character, or based on him. In short, he was hired by Nazdreg, and over the course of the series we see him go from being a failed warboss, to learning to become a Warlord, powerful enough to rival Nazdreg. Each story was like a Battle report, where we got to know WHY the Orkz were fighting, and how it went.
So writing from the point of view of a Tyranid may be too low, and the point of view of an Eldar may be too high ... but the Orkz are close enough to humans to be just right!
What is the end goal?
It’s always been that way…
Warhammer Rogue Trader is the exact game you are talking about. Just released in the last year by Owlcat games, who did 2 Pathfinder games.
@@overrclocked I need a party!
We know WHO ruined 40k. You're delusional or ignorant if you pretend they didn't.
There's a few points to consider:
1) The satire was clearest in 1st and 2nd ed because the roots and inspiration for the setting were clearer. 2000AD, Dune, Starship Troopers, GW borrowed from everything. Now, it has coalesced into its own thing.
2) From 3rd edition onwards, GW really leaned in on the grimdark. It was obvious in the artwork. Much grittier, much darker in tone (surprisingly!) and it kinda went through it's "Christian Bale Batman" phase around this time.
3) Media literacy in the target audience has dropped sharply. 1st edition was essentially D&D with a few extra toys. The average gamer was a young adult to middle-aged man. In the search forore customers, GW has aimed its marketing at an ever-younger audience. It is inevitable that a young teen isn't going to see the joke in the setting and is going to focus on the cool toys and the idea of black-and-white "goodies" and "baddies". On a slightly related note, it's what populist movements rely on when trying to find new recruits.
To remedy that, GW would either have to seriously gin up the satire, practically to the point where you're being told the joke line-by-line or people will have to engage with the lore on the level of which it was originally written. Since this is a hobby and not an English class, I don't see either working.
They've written themselves into a tricky corner no doubt.
what this creature is essentially saying is, she thinks warhammer used to make fun of right wingers and now its leaned into that aspect of it because that is what people actually like and she doesnt like it because she is a lefty knob who hates white men most likely so she wants to pervert it and make it more diverse and crap. these are the kind of people we need to be gate keeping out of it. the company needs to be taken over from within by people are not mentally defective lefties.
it was never meaningfully a joke. once they took their story more seriously the "satire" went out the window and good riddance
You pretty much nailed it. When it was 12 smarmy British 20-somethings in a leaky office the satire was right there and heavy. When it was bought by a corporate entity with shareholders and suddenly had to make more and more profit every year, they had to cut out the attitude and sell toys to kids. So they hammed up the edgelord grimdark and cut the smarmy winky anti-establishment nods.
i see my comment was deleted
Why do you not link your podcast in the description? 😅
@@Dead_Fish0 updated with link 😅
@@Coralpecan thank you! I will check it out :)
the poetic irony of "modern" GW leaving YOU behind is enjoyable. you were never in it to begin with
every point was bad excuses
Allot of the lore is dumbed down allot to appeal to a US market.
GW has been making an obvious big push to cater more to an American audience. The way rules are written, the language used in writing, the lore being less grimdark and tongue in cheek.
Americans dont understand how all that works.
You mention Birmingham The Black Planet to an American they pop off about slavery and racism because they automatically assume Birmingham in the USA.
Using terms in rules such as "first floor" to describe the ground floor of buildings...to us brits thats baffling and cuses communication issues.
Legalise in rules writing appels more to an American audience because its easier to abuse and misinterpret.
All this then goes into the lore. Keep it dumb and easy and without flavour to appeal to a market largely devoid of any interest in that
@@jamesvalentine2845 this makes so much sense! Thank you.
this is just your own ignorance and contempt for americans speaking
@@blank4227 oh I've met plenty of Americans. My contempt for them is not based on ignorance. It's genuine hate
@@jamesvalentine2845 lick a little higher babe
@@jamesvalentine2845 what's it like being mogged so hard like that?
you dont need to write from the perspective of the alien to write grim dark
look at desert raiders, where nids raid a dessert
no plotarmor, no bs imperial pandering
just a good story
and the key to the good story is that you dont know page 1 how it ends, same as storm of iron
both sides are looked at both sides have characters you dont want to cheer for
you can only cheer for the flawed hero because you hope that he gets out
to hope you need to not know
but we know page 1
keep writing from the imperial perspective, see the horror trough human eyes if you cant empathize with anything that doesnt look like you
just have them lose
thats all you need to do to turn a batman comic into conrad kurze, have him lose
40k has just become HFJ, and bad HFJ
and thats sad
you wouldnt write from the perspective of the norn queen, that would make the nids less, they have been lessened by primitivehumanizing already by the trash ultramarine writer who needed weak human fallibility to allow for his plotarmor
all you need to do is write from the perspective of humans getting the sht beaten out of them
cool side story of a genestealer escaping on the final refugee ships
there was one book that does this, i think one of the wordbearer omnibus books, where one of the escaping heroes saves a child along the way as he outruns the hive in a snowcrawler
why does the narrator need to win
its fine if the imperium is the narrator most of the time
but why is it always winning
tell the story of the narrators last moments
dont even tell all characters last moments, some just get split off and lost in the shadow
have the final pages be claws trough flesh and the acid reducing him into easily digestible slurry
then have an epilogue of an inquisitors party walking the ruins of the stripped planet finding small hints of the unmentioned characters last moments
marines sell the most models because they are the posterboys
they arnt the posterboys because they sell the most
if every advertisement is marines, every release needs to include more marines, if every trailer is marines, if every poster has marines, every book needs atleast 3 marines
yea new people in 40k are going to go for the marines
then they grow up and go for one of the not boring non human factions
but if they did their setting justice and showed any of the cool factions, like tyranids or kroot
those would sell just fine
when was the last time a greater knarlok was even seen
you cant even buy them without custom ordering them and then it takes 6 months to arrive, usually with something broken
wonder why kroot arnt the most sold faction
"James workshop wants to sell us toys" Well dont let me disturb your intersectional feminist analisys of Warhammer 40k here.
But your remark kinda sets the tone for your rant.
yeah, i can hear the hatred of white male space marine models selling the best dripping from her attempted disarming tone. this is the kind of trash GW is hiring btw. boycott continues.
I like the 99,9% of the things they're doing (you know what is the 0,01%)
Loving the Joy Division shirt!