God, Science and the Problem with Nature - Scott Clifton (Theoretical Bullshit) - Skepticon 7
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- @CliftonsNotes
/ theoreticalbullshit
Skepticon.org
This talk was part of Skepticon 7, November 21-23 in Springfield, MO.
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Clifton is one my favorite skeptics. We should see more of this man.
Fagan Roberts Clifton is in my top 3 skeptics, along with Theramintrees and Philhellenes
@Joseph Zyaire Lockdown? Get well soon.
I've literally had these same thoughts for the last couple months. But I could never have explained them as elegantly and simply as was done here by Scott. I applaud him.
writting stuff down helps to give them order and then later put them in words people can acctually understand!
Scott is the hero we need.
I've never really understood what "unnatural" is supposed to mean.
I agree. It seems to me that "unnatural" or "supernatural" seem to be nebulous terms. Often such words are used to differentiate between man-made and not man made, or between what we think we understand about reality and what we don't. Often it seems that something once thought supernatural become natural onceunderstoodby science. No am Chomsky makes this point about how ill-defined a term "physical" vs "immaterial" is.
+munstrumridcully
The term "supernatural" is nothing more than a rationalization for removing pet beliefs from being scrutinized. In effect it is an unqualified assertion that certain belief-claims cannot be refuted based on them not making sense because putting them under the jurisdiction of 'making sense' is somehow wrong.
Don't ask me to try and make sense of THAT however.
Supernatural and unnatural have always seemed analogous to "north of the north pole" to me. They don't really seem to be coherent terms/concepts.
*I've never really understood what "unnatural" is supposed to mean.*
Agreed. When "supernatural" comes up, I have a go to question: if ghosts/souls/etc. were demonstrated tomorrow, would that be confirmation of the supernatural? Or newly discovered natural? What is the difference?
It's refreshing to see someone as prominent as Scott illustrating the merely linguistic divide. Most atheists unwittingly concede a metaphysical distinction that doesn't really exist.
I love you Scott, and i'm not even gay...
Good job bro
i have argued for a decade with Supernaturalists: How do they know there is a supernatural, and not also the Subnatural, the Hypernatural, etc? What evidence do they have to distinguish between the Supernatural (their God and it's actions), the Natural, the Unknown, and these other Natures?
Either way, nice talk and, boy, it's a good time to be a Skeptic and Atheist.
"What is the purpose of the universe" is a meaningless question unless you presume the existence of a creator deity. It is equivalent to asking, "What benefit did god hope to accrue by creating the universe?."
For the atheist, to make sense of the question, you must specify "for whom?". Every human can assign his own purpose and change it at any time, and ditto for the purpose of his own life. Worms see the purpose of the universe to provide dead matter to eat. Monkeys see the purpose of the universe to provide them with fruit trees.
Craig is offering to provide you with some bullshit to fill in if you can't yet find the real answer to a question. There is no legitimacy to religious information. It is pure speculation. To a morally bankrupt mind like Craig's if an idea seems vaguely plausible, it must be absolute truth, especially if he can make a buck from it. He is a con man. This is just his sales patter.
so easy to listen to easy on the eye also has a wife boooo.. lol becoming one my fave speakers well done
Scott this was a brilliant talk, I hope we can see more things like this from you.
Brilliant as always.
If God interacts with our world, which theists propose, then we should be able to test that claim.
A theist should be able to make a prediction from his/her religious doctrine, a prayer for example, and then we'll test that prediction. Even if God is supernatural he still supposedly interacts with and affects our universe and that should be observable and testable.
For example we should be able to test Jesus' proposal from the gospels: If three of you gather to pray for something here on earth to my father who is in heaven, it shall be given to you.
DefiantBoris But God loves us and wants us to not burn in hell.
How is it love to play an eternal hide and seek with the people he's supposed to love and care for more than anything in the entire universe? It's absurd
Just because God shows up that doesn't mean that people will follow him. In order to be saved you have to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. God showing up wouldn't take away humankind's free will to follow him or not.
Jesus explicitly said that whatever you pray for it shall be given to you. There's no way around that. If Jesus spoke the truth then we should be able to test it.
What do you mean "happen in such a way"?
You mean happen in such a way that it's entirely comparable to random chance?
DefiantBoris I don't consider you a looney, lol.
Imo, you're just wrong
DefiantBoris I don't even know what you're talking about.
You're just rambling now
DefiantBoris Thx for the explanation bro.
It's very nice of you to comment something, without explanation, and then be amazed when the other person doesn't understand.
Fuck off and go back to kindergarden now.
DefiantBoris Christians believe in "Satan", an angel who has certain knowledge that the christian god exists, and yet he defies god anyways. Obviously, you can know something and yet not obey anyways.
And besides, in Christian salvation, it's not a matter of "believing in god". You have to believe very specific things...things that I believe are extremely immoral (scapegoating and human sacrifice). So, even if the Christian god showed up in Times Square and said "Hey guys, I exist", I would certainly believe that god exists at that point, but I still wouldn't worship him or accept the ridiculous and highly immoral plan of "salvation" he supposedly set up.
So, Christians have an even bigger problem now. Not only would they have to convince me that their god exists, but they would then have to justify god sending people like me to hell...hell, which is essentially an infinite punishment for my finite crimes of "sin", which is extremely fucking immoral if you ask me. They would then have to convince me that human sacrifice and scapegoating are moral actions, while avoiding the vacuous special pleading of "yeah yeah it's immoral except when it's jesus". Isn't jesus supposed to be god, who is perfectly good? Wouldn't using scapegoating and human sacrifice in that case make it INFINITELY immoral?
All these thousands of years of apologetics, theology, and religious philosophy, and the Christians have still failed in the end. Even if the Christian gospel of salvation through scapegoating and human sacrifice was completely 100% historically accurate, I still won't accept...because their god is an undeserving moral monster.
That was a novel concept. I wonder what other philosophers have to say about it.
really fun, intrigue and suspense, and a direct confrontation of a big issue
At the end Scott brought up a point which I have thought of myself and never made sense to me. Why does there have to be a sacrifice at all? Doesn’t god make the rules? Theists are always rapturous over what they see as this ultimate, incredible act of love and sacrifice just for them.
But really, if Jesus knew ahead of time that he would come back after 3 days and become king of the world, doesn’t that make it invalid? If I was told that if I sacrificed everything I had for 3 days I would then receive a billion dollars, can I claim credit for making a sacrifice?
And can’t god have another kid? He’s already made billions. The whole “only begotten son” thing sounds like bs.
There are plenty of parents who would sacrifice themselves to save their children knowing it would be permanent.
It looks more like god was showing off stage a great death scene to load people with guilt, then rise from the dead in an impressive show of power
That was all profoundly accurate
19:00 The part where someone calls you arrogant for trying to question/understand/predict god, I usually just fire right back at them because they're the ones who are arrogantly assuming things about (a) god.
Really good about science being able to test any of the implications of the supernatural, not enough people clarify that when talking about the divide between the two, it seems only the supernatural itself is untestable physically (obviously) but is testable logically through philosophy. I'm not sure how fruitful the questions on God's properties is going to be though, it's certainly interesting to ask why he is one way rather than another but the idea of necessary existence makes even asking it problematic since it means there is no explanation, it just is, you can call it "the law of god's nature" if you like but it doesn't help. The same issue is present with physical reality, if it exists necessarily then there is no explanation as to why it exists rather than not other than to say it exists necessarily, that's what "necessary" existence means. The theist could always say the explanation for his properties is the concept of "the greatest possible being", but when you ask about what makes properties "Great making" you run into the circularity of saying that something is great because it's in reference to gods properties (I.E, we know moral truths via gods nature and say god's moral nature is a great making property, that we know because of gods nature). Of course it could still be true that god is the greatest possible being but good luck arguing for it without circularity.
+Wade Haden
We have zero reasons to infer that this "supernatural" exists at all and cannot even make sense of the proposition for reasons Scott outlines above. Anything which actually exists or takes place in reality will be 'natural' by definition so the term "supernatural" just sounds like a synonym for "imaginary".
+Wade Haden
Things seem strange to us when looking at quantum physics for reasons of limited intellectual capacity to understand how things work at such infinitely tiny/sub-atomic degrees. This does not in any way support claims of the 'supernatural' however and we still have zero evidence to suggest such things are real and a lot of evidence saying they are not real. Your analogy with media is a false analogy because we can understand everything that humans can do to present information or withhold such. There is nothing 'quantum' about the media.
> it seems only the supernatural itself is untestable physically (obviously)
Wrong. Take most religious claims. If true, they have effects on physical reality, directly or indirectly. If they had precisely zero effects on reality, then we would be talking about a do-nothing, clockmaker deist god at best, and that is not the god of most religious believers.
Remember that a person's experience is an effect on physical reality. If someone genuinely hears a message from god in their head, then that message can be communicated verbally to others. That's a direct effect on physical reality.
hewdelfewijfe
Yeah that is actually the point I was making, you can't test the supernatural thing itself (like pure consciousness) but you can test any implications of it (or causes), so if god exists and performed a miracle you could test that the miracle occurred but you couldn't test god himself performing it, you run into a causation brick wall at the point of the immaterial.
+Wade Haden +95TurboSol " ... but i am convinced that quantum mechanics will light our way .... " Unfortunately, one of religion's strategies is to shutter any light that falls upon understanding that there is no god. The delusion is so impenetrable that the surface of the sun would be darkened by it
Every Knee will bow ..
You're a great speaker Scott - perhaps this is your calling. Good thing for you, if you get bored of the tv scene, I'm sure the world will still be full of all this woowoo bullshit. Keep fighting the good fight :)
This is really great to see - but I would be careful not to turn such events as Skepticon into a circle-jerk. Enthusiasm has a way of doing that to groups like this, so just be careful - and always work to be as objective as possible. Well done :)
Fantastic Scott. Great food for thought.
Is it just me, or does Scott share some verbal attributes with Sam Harris? Not so much in content, but style: cadence, articulation, etc.
I think there only needs to be one commandment:
Thou shalt be rational.
If you think about it, rationality will bring with it morality, knowledge, and science. So it really is the only thing you must do. Want to kill someone? Be rational - what's gonna happen to you if you kill someone? You're gonna be looked down on by society. It's best you find other ways to vent your anger. Want to start a fight with someone because they challenged you in some way? Be rational - imagine what could happen if you worked together. Collaboration is always a more desirable option than conflict, especially if you find yourself to be the weaker party.
Thus, rationality has no morality. If you want to do something not acceptable by the larger tribe, then be rational. How can I do this thing without being caught? Or better, how can I do this thing I want to do, and convince others to support me? Logic and rational thinking can definitely help me accomplish such goals. As a friend of mine (who is in prison for murder) once explained to me, we stole the land from the Indians, so whoever has the power to control others becomes the moral standard. Check out "The 48 Laws of Power" by Robert Greene. This is where rationality MUST logically end up.
Haha! I've been thinking the same thing since 2011. I wrote a paper in college that said if god exists there's nothing more natural!
Excellent presentation.👊🏿👊🏿👊🏿
This was really good. Excellent!
Unfortunately nobody who has commented seems to get your point. Makes perfect sense to me.
The vast majority of humans believe in some sort of mind/spirit that exists independent of brains. This is not entirely based upon learning but also based upon innate human propensities especially relating to our propensity for human interaction and our tribalistic nature. One aspect of this is our capacity for subconsciously envisioning other people's mind when we interact with them which gives a reality to our sense of minds outside of our own. We are more instinctual than most people ascribe to us. The supernatural is based upon innate human propensities of the mind that we ascribe to a special reality. Our tribal instincts can override reason as we know that religion and politics aren't amenable to rathional discussion
Best talk so far.
So clear and understandable.
True, and the most thought provoking too, imo
Never thought about things that way before.
This guy is one of the most eloquent and articulate individuals on the planet. It's almost surreal.
Incredible talk. Lucid, original, eloquent, beautiful.
Gorgeouse...
Wow! Starlord is a great speaker! I lov Guardians of the galaxy
I think Kirk Cameron will DESTROY Scott Clifton in a debate. (sarcasm)
He needs to run for some office or perform a one man show
Why is the spaceman to the left try to t kill god by blowing peas from his nose against him?!😂
Great orator and goodlooking. Probably would make a good science teacher. Just does not know God and his purpose for mankind. Human reasoning can't comprehend that concept.
Nice claim you have there, care to suport it?
jzgirl83 One has to ask, if human reasoning can't comprehend god and his purpose, how do you know what you claim can't be known?
Do you have any comprehension of how stupid that makes you sound? This is the very essence of what Scott Clifton was claiming.
You make perfect sense as you comprehend something that is incomprehensible.
If you can't comprehend the concept, then how can you comprehend the purpose?
Love this guy... but Sam Harris said ALL of this like 16 years ago
Repent for your sins and be free to enter the KINGDOM OF THE LORD!
Islam and an Atheistic:
God Knower of the unseen and witness- there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. (Quran 2:225)
God is the Creator of all things, and He is the Guardian and Disposer of all affairs.(Quran 39:62)
Philosophy & Science:
The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive resoning leads to knowledge understood in the classic philosophical sense, since it focuses on the lack of justification for either:
1. Generalizing about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white", before the discovery of black swans) or
2. Presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold). Hume called this the principle of uniformity of nature.
The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method and for that reason the philosopher C. D. Broad said that "induction is the glory of science and the scandal of philosophy". Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrhonism ofancient philosophy, as well as the Carvaka school of Indian philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later.
Pyrhonian skeptic Sextus Empiricus first questioned the validity of inductive reasoning, positing that a universal rule could not be established from an incomplete set of particular instances:
When they propose to establish the universal from the particulars by means of induction, they will effect this by a review of either all or some of the particulars. But if they review some, the induction will be insecure, since some of the particulars omitted in the induction may contravene the universal; while if they are to review all, they will be toiling at the impossible, since the particulars are infinite and indefinite.
The focus upon the gap between the premises and conclusion present in the above passage appears different from Hume's focus upon the circular reasoning of induction. However, Weintraub claims in The Philosophical Quarterly that although Sextus's approach to the problem appears different, Hume's approach was actually an application of another argument raised by Sextus:
Those who claim for themselves to judge the truth are bound to possess a criterion of truth. This criterion, then, either is without a judge's approval or has been approved. But if it is without approval, whence comes it that it is truthworthy? For no matter of dispute is to be trusted without judging. And, if it has been approved, that which approves it, in turn, either has been approved or has not been approved, and so on ad infinitum.
You cannot explain, calculate everything in science there is Someone above and beyond the science.
Science (know:ledge) is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe In an older and closely related meaning, "science" also efers to this body of knowledge itself, of the type that can be rationally explained and reliably applied.
God is beyond and above from the science he is the creator of the universe He can’t be put on or judged in any scientific test. If we could have the God defined in science we would be the gods and or able to fight against Him and get over on his kingdom. There can’t be any scientific proof for the God however there are numerous clear and open signs and traces for His existence.
He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him). And He is the All-Knower of everything. (Quran 57:3)
There are scientifically explanations of everything it is because God has created everything the way so it should have its explanation.
Signs and evident; Human is not from earth from but he came from Heavens:
“Get you down (upon the earth), all of you together, from Paradise, some of you are an enemy to some others. Then, if there comes to you guidance from Me, whoever follows My Guidance shall neither go astray, nor fall into distress and misery.” (Quran 20:123)
Humans are very deferring from Animals if they were from earth they would have been same as the animals are in their consciousness but they are not.
Animal consciousness is beset by a number of difficulties. It poses the problem of other minds in an especially severe form, because non-human animals, lacking the ability to express human language, cannot tell us about their experiences. Also, it is difficult to reason objectively about the question, because a denial that an animal is conscious is often taken to imply that it does not feel, its life has no value, and that harming it is not morally wrong. Descartes, for example, has sometimes been blamed for mistreatment of animals due to the fact that he believed only humans have a non-physical mind. In humans, consciousness has been defined as: sentience, awareness, subjectivity, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind. Despite the difficulty in definition, many philosophers believe there is a broadly shared underlying intuition about what consciousness is.
What! did you then think that We had created you in vain and that you shall not be returned to Us? (Quran 23:115)
Is Atheist a Religion?
Atheist is not a new religion it could be found from ancient times! It is an ancient technique of the Kings and governments to create merciless, ruthless and cruel Armies.
It is not the Atheists who will decide whether atheist is a religion or not. God is not a religion. If they believe there is no God that doesn't mean Atheist is not a religion. Any kind of belief about the God of the community and their culture is the religion evidently Atheist is the religion and why not? Their culture is to use unlimited drugs, kill innocents for small issues such is someone parked his car at atheist parking spot and he will have no mercy because in his religion there is no God (no punishment) as well in their religion they believe in ("Fawahish (“obvious sin” everybody knows it is wrong or bad).
There are many scientific mysteries we’re no closer to solving them.
Why Do We Have Free Will?
The question of free will has plagued scientists and philosophers for centuries - if our bodies are physical constructions that work within an explainable, deterministic universe than everything that happens inside our brains could, with a powerful enough computing device, be predicted. Scientists are deeply split on whether free will is real or an illusion, with some arguing that the development of quantum mechanics makes an even stronger case for the human body as a complex biological machine and not an independent actor.
[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving - (Quran 67:2)
We don’t know our coming future of a single minute but we may hope so the hope is in whom?
The Wow! Signal.
One summer night in 1977, Jerry Ehman, a volunteer for SETI, or the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence,. Ehman was scanning radio waves from deep space, hoping to randomly come across a signal that bore the hallmarks of one that might be sent by intelligent aliens, when he saw his measurements spike. The signal lasted for 72 seconds, the longest period of time it could possibly be measured by the array that Ehman was using. It was loud and appeared to have been transmitted from a place no human has gone before: in the constellation Sagittarius near a star called Tau Sagittarii, 120 light-years away. Ehman wrote the words “Wow!” on the original printout of the signal, thus its title as the “Wow! Signal” All attempts to locate the signal again have failed, leading to much controversy and mystery about its origins and its meaning.
In 2012, on the 35th anniversary of the Wow! Signal, Arecibo Observatory beamed a response from humanity, containing 10,000 Twitter messages, in the direction from which the signal originated. In the response, Arecibo scientists have attempted to increase the chances of
intelligent life receiving and decoding the celebrity videos and crowd-sourced tweets by attaching a repeating sequence header to each message that will let the recipient know that the messages are intentional and from another intelligent life form.
Muslims believe that Angles are intelligent creation of God they have certain duties in heavens.
It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things. (Quran 2:29)
Balancing of everything:
And the heaven He has raised high, and He has set up the Balance. (Quran 55:7)
The world population of today is about 7 billion the males are 50.4% and females are 49.6%. There is a mate for everybody male or female and always it has been almost same from beginning of all human history and it never had been such as 10% male and 90% female so it has been proven that there is an Allah Sustainer who keeps us in a perfect balance. (Please note Islam also teaches us that there was a creation of God on earth before human called DJIN.)
And of His signs: He has created for you from yourselves mates with whom you find rest, and He ordained between you love and mercy. In this, there are signs for people who ponder
(Quran 30:21).
Sodom and Gomorrah were cities mentioned in the Quran and the Book of Genesis throughout the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament and in Deuterocanonical sources as well
We quote German archaeologist Werner Keller as follows;
Together with the base of this mighty fissure, which runs precisely through this area, the Vale of Siddim, including Sodom and Gomorrah, plunged one day into the abyss? Their destruction came about through a great earthquake which was probably accompanied by explosions, lightning, issue of natural gas and general conflagration.
Say, "Travel in the earth; thereafter look into how was the end of the beliers." (Quran 6:11)
Umar Bin Al Khattab determination:
He said he recognized the existence of God by changing his intentions he knew that there is a power over me whom doesn't let me to stay or keep up with my intentions but His.
Pascal's Wager Theory:
Bringing up Pascal's Wager is the BELIEF of life after death. Whether is there life after death or not! If there is no life after death nobody loose nothing but if there is eternal torment in an afterlife many of us will be in trouble !!!..
The wager uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, §233):
1. God is, or God is not. Reason cannot decide between the two alternatives.
2. A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3. You must wager (it is not optional).
4. Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
5. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
6. But some cannot believe. They should then 'at least learn your inability to believe...' and 'Endeavour then to convince' themselves.
Assuredly, it is they in the Hereafter who will be the greatest losers (Quran 11:22)
And in case you would wonder, then (really) wondrous is their saying, "When we are dust, will we surely be (raised) indeed in a new creation?" Those are they who have disbelieved in their Lord and those will have the shackles on their necks, and those will be companions (i.e., inhabitants) of the Fire; they are therein eternally (abiding). (Quran 13:5)
(Is their scientific possibility if dead could raise-up? one example is the Human cloning; the creation of a genetically identical copy of a human)
Is Religion Natural? Yes and it is as well one of the proof for the existence of God:
It is worthless argument that religion is not natural; religion had been found from first to the last corner of the world and as older as 223,000-100,000 BCE
The earliest evidence of Hominids, such as Neanderthals and even Homo, deliberately disposing of deceased individuals usually in funeray caches. The graves, located throughout Eurasia (e.g. the Pontnwydd Cave (Wales), Atapuerca Mountains (Spain), Qafzeh, Es Skhul, Krapina (Croatia), are believed to represent the beginnings of ceremonial rites, although there is some debate about this. Neanderthals placed their deceased in simple graves with little or no concern for grave goods or markers; however, their graves occasionally appeared with limestone blocks in or on them, possibly an archaic form of grave marking. These practices were possibly the result of empathetic feelings towards fellow tribespeople, for example: an infant buried in the Dederiyeh Cave after its joints had disarticulated was placed with concern for the correct anatomical arrangement of its body parts.
The roots of the religion in human are long deep. In modern days the Zoolatry is very common People will worship animals in search of god, to please the god, people as well pray arrange covenant liturgy for animal blessings, prayers for sick or deceased pets. For the sack of religion the man will cross the lines and go down as much as they will not hesitate to sacrifice their children.
It is human nature if you call bad words to him he will get angry and he may fight with you so he will do the same if you do blasphemy to the god evidently religion is a human nature.
The background of majority of Atheists comes from Christianity when they find discrepancies in the Bible they have the reason to refuse from existence of the god. There is only one truth but everything else is a lie. They should research about other religions too.
+Quran Science
We DO study other religions, including Islam and we do listen to other religious belief-claims, including those of Islam.
We find them equally nonsensical and posting wall-of-text nonsense with bad 'Engrish' type grammar does not change this. Here in America (as well as Canada, most of Europe etc.) Christianity is the most believed religion and the one behind most attacks on politics, science, education and unjust law-making. Ergo, we spend most of our time dealing with Christian specifics as we are most familiar with the religion we have been hammered with since we were born.
There are probably just as many skeptical atheists of Islam in Muslim countries but they do not speak out publicly because they have no desire to be tortured and beheaded by frothing-insane fundamentalists.
Like Muslims, Christians to try to reinterpret the verses of their holy book to be in line with science. It does not work any better for them than it does for you.
+DoctorSkepticus I c how morally good person u r however; please open this link and read info in it is not only about Islam but also u will learn about other religions;
I will appreciate if u provide me a link to learn English as well! thank u !
atheistnislam.wordpress.com/
www.basic-koran.com
no no no
atheistnislam.wordpress.com/
+Quran Science
Sorry but I have no need or desire to visit your links. Address my response to your post or do not, but I won't be going on any wild goose chases for your entertainment.
DoctorSkepticus Proof the existence of God:
Many times we are asked what the proof of God’s existence is. To the person whose eyes are open to the magnificent and beautiful world around us, the evidence is overwhelming! Some people deny that there is a Creator. Others concede the fact that there is a Creator, but deny the fact that God daily sustains all things in the natural world. How I thank God that He is not only the Creator but also the Sustainer. He keeps this old world spinning! I don’t have to worry about icebergs melting or the sun burning out. God created the world, and He will sustain it according to His will.
Sometimes I think about the universe… they say that it’s so big we can’t really measure it. The part we can see has a radius of 47 billion light years. I think about how in this universe, there are supposedly at least 100 million galaxies and I can’t help but think to myself, “Wow. We live in just one of those galaxies.” But then I remember how even in this galaxy, our constellation, our sun, is just one speck inside the huge dust of it all. In fact, there are 300 billion other stars in our tiny corner of space. I think about how our solar system is so tiny compared to the Milky Way, I can’t help but realize that our earth is just a tiny speck in relation even to that sun, which is just a speck in the galaxy, which is just a speck in the universe. And even so, even after all that, I can’t help but think just how huge the earth seems in comparison to me how wondrous Earth, the universe, stars, And after all that, I start to think about what’s on this earth. All the varieties of animals, and how even if we’re just counting ants, there are 10 quadrillion walking around. And how there are 5,702 species of mammals. I realize how within all those huge numbers are us humans. Ridiculously very low compare to all ants and mammals. And even more ridiculous if we are compared to the universe and the galaxy and the sun. When I was young, I used to get to this point and stop. I would realize how small we are, how pathetically tiny, relative to it the quadrillion ants and the trillions of galaxies and all that… and there wasn’t much more to say. Most of us live our lives trying not to think about this tininess. Its proof it reminds us the existence of God.
We know that the universe is 4.5 billion years old and but that it is not still infinitely old. We do not know why it had a moment of origin, which is now commonly called the "Big Bang." This frivolous name was invented by adherents to a "steady-state" universe, and was meant to reflect their contempt for a universe with a beginning. However, astronomers found evidence for the "Big Bang" by looking at the way distant galaxies were moving away from us. As the theory predicts, those farthest away also had the fastest velocities.
We think that carbon was made inside stars long ago. However, we do not know why enough of it was created in this process, relative to heavier elements, to make life possible on Earth. The carbon is believed to have been released when the stars exploded, and enough eventually coalesced on our planet during its formation to become a part of every living organism.
Some scientists explain all of this by saying that it is just the way it has to be. In other words, if the universe were different, we would not be around to ask why things are the way they are. This "explanation" actually has a formal label. It is the "Anthropic Cosmological Principle," and the first word in the name reflects its emphasis on the existence of human beings as the reason for everything we observe.
Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds! (Quran 7:54)
The Journey of Water:
And We made water to flow forth in the land in springs, so the water gathered together according to a measure already ordained. (Quran 54:12)
God sends the water running down the mountains in rivers and streams. What a great system! He brings life-sustaining water to all the animals of the field and forest and fertilizing lands.
The Falling of Rain:
And it is He Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His Mercy (rain). Till when they have carried a heavy-laden cloud, We drive it to a land that is dead, then We cause water (rain) to descend thereon. Then We produce every kind of fruit therewith. Similarly, We shall raise up the dead, so that you may remember or take heed.
The Growing of Grains Grass and Herbs:
And He it is Who sends down water from the cloud, then We bring forth with it buds of all (plants), then We bring forth from it green (foliage) from which We produce grain piled up (in the ear); and of the palm-tree, of the sheaths of it, come forth clusters (of dates) within reach, and gardens of grapes and olives and pomegranates, alike and unlike; behold the fruit of it when it yields the fruit and the ripening of it; most surely there are signs in this for a people who believe. (Quran 6:99)
God is the one who makes the grass grow. Think about it. No grass for the cows to eat-no beef, no milk, and no help pulling the plow! Grass is pretty important. And the other edible plants are pretty important for human consumption. It’s a good thing that God didn’t just create grass and plants and then forget to keep the process going!
The Planting of Trees:
Then We cause to grow thereby gardens of palm trees and grapes for you; you have in them many fruits and from them do you eat; (Quran 23:19)
God is the one who plants the trees. What a wise God! He is the original Johnny Appleseed. Trees age and fall, forests burn down, men cut down trees to use the wood, but God just keeps planting more trees.
The Changing of day, night and seasons:
You make the night to enter into the day, and You make the day to enter into the night (i.e. increase and decrease in the hours of the night and the day during winter and summer), You bring the living out of the dead, and You bring the dead out of the living. And You give wealth and sustenance to whom You will, without limit (measure or account). (Quran 3:27)
Most people have probably never thought about this, but even the coming of night is an indicator of God. God keeps the earth spinning at a consistent rate of speed so that we can predict the exact moment that the sun will drop off of the horizon and when it will reappear. Wow!
What a remarkable “coincidence” that for thousands of years we have been able to depend upon the consistency of the seasons! Could it be that it is not coincidence at all, but that God is the one who keeps that process going?
The Feeding of Land Animals and Sea Creatures:
And there is no creature on earth but that upon Allah is its provision, and He knows its place of dwelling and place of storage. All is in a clear register. (Quran 11:6)
If you watch a nature documentary about large herds of animals traveling far distances for food, or wild animals on the hunt, or sea creatures in the sea. All these animals get their food from God.
The Birth and the Death of All Living Things:
How can you disbelieve in Allah when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you [back] to life, and then to Him you will be returned. (Quran 2:28)
God does not only end the lives of all living things, but it is He who creates new life as well.
When God ceases to give breath to any living creature, it will die. That is about as succinct a description of God’s power to sustain as you will ever see.
Conclusion: I am so glad to know and serve a God who not only has the power to create, but also the power to sustain that which He has created. I’m also glad that while this is all true in the physical realm, it is also true in the spiritual realm. When God gave me spiritual new birth, He took a permanent interest in me personally. He sustains me from day to day.
Being honest:
So Mr. Atheist the IDEA is the proof the fact the truth is God the creator and sustainer of the universe does exist you cannot deny it!
great job explaining these empistemological issues that are absolutely central to moving beyond supernaturalism and understanding scientific thinking as merely a way of wanting to be as careful as possible about the claims we make about reality.
I miss Scott! Come back to us, guy - bestow your wisdom upon us!
I loved this discussion, Scott. I also grinned at a few Sam Harris-isms in your speech, and I can tell you appreciate his work as much as I do. :)
Your talk reminds me a lot of another criticism of non-overlapping magisteria. I forget now who presented it but it went something like this: Science has access to all the material phenomena in the universe. Futher, as far as we can tell, our conscious experience is entirely a product of our material brains. Therefore any phenomenon that can be measured or experienced, anything that can possibly affect us in any way, objectively or subjectively, is the domain of scientific inquiry. Anything "supernatural" or immaterial is, by definition, something that does not interact with this universe and therefore something we cannot know anything about.
The more I mull it over, I get the feeling this and your argument may be made logically equivalent to each other, if padded with some minor assumptions. Either way, I love this topic and am completely on board the notion that nothing (meaningful) is beyond the reach of scientific study.
What does supernatural mean? not made of molecules, made up, without evidence, speculative, scary, entertaining, not understood, don't bother trying to make sense of it because it is nonsense.
The natural/supernatural thing near the end: brilliant!
"High School dropout"? Well... you did fool me so i guess i'm better stop thinking so highly of myself now :(
In general, I agree with Mr. Clifton - that certain claims can be tested. Yet, I differ with his primary point - that language and political expediency is the reason science is “precluded from making statements about...” purpose, supernatural causation, etc… because these things are “outside of its providence”. The comparison of the MiB marble-sized universe (worn around the cat named Orion’s neck) is not the same as a universe in a realm of “nature” where God resides. This is a logical fallacy called “false equivalence”. Science would reject the idea that our universe is a marble-sized universe based on Alan Guth’s inflationary theory’s “pocket universe” - or it should.
If, as Mr. Clifton says, “the job of science is not to prove or disprove anything... Science is about constructing a model of reality that best accounts for all of the data we have available to us while making the fewest assumptions as possible” then such a marble-sized universe would be dismissed, much like the belief in the existence of the “flying spaghetti monster” is rejected by theist and non-theist alike. Such a different universe, either where God lives OR where these aliens live - MiB style, is NOT “natural” as we know it and in either case another word would need to be invented and used.
As a theist (yes, I am a theist of the Christian verity), I agree with Mr. Clifton, that science does not have to reject a “model of reality that best accounts for the data we have” which include things that we cannot yet test. In fact, there is plenty of things we accept without being testable because they work well enough. I wouldn’t go all willy-nilly and accept all kinds of ridiculous explanations simply because they work. Honest theist and non-theist alike need to live in the real world as we know it and experience it. But, to avoid extremes and function in real life, there is no reason to not expect logical and reasonable explanations for certain religious claims. Thus, I myself am somewhat of a skeptic because many religious claims are overtly biased. Maybe science is actually a subset of the expected logical and reasonable explanations we seek which would also include the metaphysical.
See, Scott legitimatelly makes me question if people are actually born gay or if they can be made "gay" by our environment...
Because I'm usually a completely straight guy, but holy cow I'm sure I could turn gay, if this guy ever started flirting with me... X-D
Interesting talk, well made. As always.
Lots of prevarication, skating about the subject, nervous reaction and woolly thinking. After 12 minutes I have no idea what this talk is supposed to be about. Even the title is meaningless.
Whenever I critique religion, I try my best to ignore the artificial exemptions granted to it. For example in discussions about morality god is not considered a moral agent, but why not? In epistemology, we can't know if we are brains in vats, but god is exempted from the problems of epistemology. Why? I've had similar (but much more rudimentary) ideas about god and nature. It seems that humans have an overwhelming naturalistic assumption that guides our thinking. The only alternative is despair. if the supernatural realm has no predictive qualities or if god is unfathomable, theology collapses, if not, it is amenable to good epistemology.
I wouldn't say exempt, needs ontological status for that
Bart Verveen can you elaborate please, I'm not sure I understand.
In another word,existentiality or lack thereof, is underpinning any epistemological questions IMHO.
Bart Verveen so you mean that we can't ask questions about things we haven't established to exist? Sorry for my lack of sophistication, ontology is not really something I've paid much attention to.
In essence Yeh , ex falso quidlibet
Even saying "the natural world" implies a distinction that we have no reason to think valid. "The supernatural" is just a claim of the religious. We have no actual indication of another world or type of existence alongside or above or outside this one. This we see is just "the world." If there are aspects and dimensions of which we are unaware (and no doubt there are) that doesn't make them supernatural. About the only argument for the supernatural is "you can't prove there isn't one," which is of course not actually an argument.
+Mark Hornberger "Even saying "About the only argument for the supernatural is "you can't prove there isn't one," which is of course not actually an argument" Noooooo, if you take that argument form them, then they cannot assert "....therefore god"
quote nature unquote
Hmmm...wouldn't saying that God "finds himself" in set conditions require infinite regress? If God were to just somehow find himself in any type of world of set boundaries/rules, it seems to suggest that God is not really God/Creator, but a creation with a beginning, leading to the question of who created God. If we say that God can't set or change the rules, but must always work within them like a creation, then Who is God's God? But of course if it is true that God is the Creator of all things, has all the power, and has always existed, it also follows that He, unlike any creature, is complete and self-existing, lacking nothing, needing nothing. So instead of being governed by anything or any environment, God would logically be the Governor, the Sovereign of all. Call me simple, but I would say that is pretty darn supernatural! Such excellence and transcendence is without parallel in the natural world we can observe. Everything we observe depends on something else. The difference between natural and supernatural is creation and Creator.
+Sally Meadows You are simple. (As per request, no thanks required). And here we have the dancing on the heads of pins that must be done in order to justify the ludicrous anomalies, inconsistencies and incongruent assertions that accompany any thinking around god. There are more puzzling and self defeating aspects to your religion than there is to postulating Quantum Irregularities using hand written Roman numerals.
What is blatantly obvious tho those not desperately dependent on it's blitherings, is that is was definitely the product of bronze age knowledge. Nothing within it surpasses the knowledge of its time. As a book for all time, it is astonishingly entrenched in the petty squabblings of one very limited time frame.
Puzzle this: why would a disembodied phantasm take a terrestrial form? The only possible answer is, so as to be of sympathetic appearance to the earth bound, primitive, superstitious adherents. Thus, in order to soothe the flock, god was made in the image of man. So there is the answer to "Who created god?" Bronze age goat herders did.
They were beset with terrors that were beyond imagination, and frustrated by the irksome inability to pour their wrath upon those who displeased them, and as Muhammad was to do hundreds of years later. They stole verses and mythology from other deities and did a little cobbling together of a story
May your god be gone before you
+Sally Meadows Being omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient is auto debunked within the bible itself, constantly. God is defeated by iron wheeled chariots being one of the simplest and stupidest. He also must stoop to having his adherents slaughter, in the most brutal manner, women, children, babies, born and unborn, right down to dogs and chickens. So, these followers are commanded to break the very commandments passed down effectively moments before. Then to repeat this barbaric atrocity, time and time again. It is a wonder he did not send down another decree, Thou shalt not play with matches, then command them to put Sodom and Gomorrah to the match.
Now you are off on some interminably convoluted side issue, that depends on the already debunked omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience. It is akin to planning which Island I shall buy, prior to picking up my Lotto ticket.
May your god be gone before you
Wow 👏🙂
I absolutely love Scott. His arguments has helped me to become an atheist. My hero!!
freakin fascinating talk.
brilliant!
I bow before your superior logic. (sarcastically) Let us warship this great Scott Clifton by the masses, and heed to his every whim.
18:26...one of the most feminine things I've ever seen a man do...