Freewill and Lazy Deities...
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Nonbelief and Peek-A-Boo:
• Nonbelief & Peek-A-Boo...
drseussre14, thank you for the way you conduct yourself. You seem open-minded, humble, and genuinely interested in coming to a conclusion. I hope we have more exchanges in the future.
I have been asking these same questions every since I was a little kid. No one has ever been able to answer with anything other than I must have faith.
It seems that it's only the nonbelievers that are both able and willing to take on task of deconstructing arguments. I challenge any and all believers (be they Christian, Muslim, whatever) to deconstruct the following quote by Epicurus:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
It seems a relevant to the above argument. At any rate, have at it.
Thanks, Oners82. Here's a way (it just occurred to me) to take a theist to task on that point:
If god can only do what is logically possible than he is subject to the laws of physics, like everything else in nature: therefore, god is not not supernatural; consequently, one cannot call him, "god" , because a god is by definition a supernatural entity.
.
So by attempting to argue for god's simultaneous omnipotence and omnibenevolence, the theist succeeds only in denying the notion that god is a supernatural entity at which point they must admit that he is therefore, no god at all. Attempting such logic, The theist basically argues him/herself one step away from an atheistic position. We need to find a way to nudge them just a little further in that direction. John.
Hi. I'm gonna take a little time to re-read your response and consider it more carefully. Frankly, I've had a long day. A friend of mine is in the advanced stages of Muscular Dystrohy and is going into palliative care. Frankly, I need a break to get drunk and listen to my favorite tunes on my You Tube playlist. I do however, welcome your response and say, thank you. If you can just grant that one small grace, I'll be more happy to consider your above expressed thoughts as I'm quite sure that I stand to learn a great deal. Thanks so much for such a comprehensive and thoughtful communique. I do appreciate it. John..
OK I'll take a stab at a response. Only a being that is utterly subject to the natural processes (i.e., physics, chemistry, biology) would be compelled to use logic because ultimately the only real value of logic is that it provides a way of understanding and predicting and interacting with said natural processes. In short, supernatural beings if they existed, wouldn't need logic by virtue of being supernatural..
I'm sorry if my response is woefully philsophically inadequate. I still clearly have so much to learn. I'll give a little thought to your response. It would not hurt if a did a little more research into religious apologetics and Aristotelian logic.
Really, I'm just stumbling through my ignorance, trying to participate in this collective and communicative enterprise of interactive consciousness called, the Internet..Thanks for provoking me to think. Much appreciated..
Sincerely,
John.
Thanks, for being patient enough to explain the argument a little more., Again, I think I'll take a little time to respond. Today i was on an interior house painting job. It wasn't quite as productive as it could have been. quantitatively; however I did manage make an executive procedural decision that likely saved the client a lot of grief, time and consequently, money, had we done things his way. I'll apply my amazing A.D.H.D. concentration skills to your argument and see if.I can come up with at least a remotely coherent response. I apologize I seem a little intellectually disabled. Thanks.
I forgot to say, i'm sorry to hear about your father. While on the topic of death, a few days ago I sent out an email to a number of my contacts entitled, Upon My Death, in which I said that I would like my epitaph to read as follows:"He cared about consciousness.". That's only thing I can assert that is genuinely true about me within a reasonable degree of certainty and confidence. Anyway, just another A.D.H.D. digression. It won't be the last.. John.
I was an agnostic until 2008. So much for that.
Faith is a choice, as is love. If you seek God with an open heart, you will receive hints of his presence but there will never be an appearance in the physical world by God in which he punches you in the eye to make you believe, you must choose to believe. It is the same as believing your wife loves you. She says so, but by your measure you can never believe that because it is impossible to KNOW someone's heart.
In other words, put us all on the same playing field as the fallen Angels. Welcome us all to Heaven - show us around - let us meet God in all His Glory...then give us the choice to stay, or take a pass. I must say, if it's just singing in a choir for eternity, I might ask for what's behind door #3.
Thank you for clarifying.
"He does not love us as His children".
Yes, He does. According to Christian doctrine as well as the Bible, He absolutely does.
The Bible also says that God "wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" and that he "desires that no man should perish".
These things are hard for Christians to try and deny. And since my argument is directed at them specifically, there isn't really a discrepancy or straw-man going on.
Of course there is a delay between decision making and action to follow through on that decision, with awareness falling between. I have done some research myself on what we called loop delay, which is essentially the same thing. However, we do not only find this in humans, nor only in study of cognitive behavior/reasoning, it is found in almost every aspect of existence.
One thing he definitely could have done but did not do, is not let a hell exist. No hell... no one goes there! Pretty fuckin simple!
I stubbed my toe today AND I got a paper cut! I'm so sick of lazy deities that don't intervene.
Bravo! Excellent! I have been making the same arguments all over RUclips. It seems that the more Christians-n-the like cleave to, so-called, freewill and, what they theorize, as God's reasoning for it...the more they diminish their own god or their own god's power!
Absolutely brilliant! You make your case so clearly, thoroughly and eloquently.
Scott! Are you planning on creating any new videos soon?
Beauty!! Way to drive it home, Scott.
Excellent points. TBS. I hadn't thought of the fallen angel thing.
I've made the same argument, that knowledge doesn't automatically obviate free will, simply by looking around at all the fat people.
A fat person KNOWS that excersize & proper diet will lead to a healthy body. But how many people actually follow that? Go to disneyland, and be stunned. I was.
Anyway, great vid!
You are the greatest.
Surah At-Taghabun:
No calamity befalls (one), but with the leave of Allah. And whoever believes in Allah, He guides his heart. Allah is All-Knowing about every thing. (11)
Your riches and your children are but a trial. As for Allah, with Him is a great reward. (64:15)
I know because I've had experience with God's power working throughout my life.
i have never seen a 1 on 1 debate with Theoreticalbulllshit but if such a debate did occur i have a felling it would be fucking amazing
Can you cite the studies please so I can read them and have an intelligent conversation on the subject. I am a scientist in the fields of medicine, neurology and psychology and I have not heard of these studies, so I would need to read the papers to know how to respond to this. I have Elsevier, and Pubmed accounts if you can find them there.
You're right. I've noticed that about my videos. I'll work on being better about that. Thanks.
I saw that, just wanted to remind Scott to put it up.
Has this 17th century debate provided a sound argument which directly negates my point about freewill in this video?
If it has, why don't you simply tell me what I'm missing?
Alif , Lam , Mim . 1 (1) Do people think that they will be left (at ease) only on their saying, “We believe” and will not be put to any test? (2) Indeed We have tested those who were before them. So Allah will surely know the ones who are truthful, and He will surely know the liars. (3) Or do those who commit evils think that they will outstrip Us? Evil is what they predicate.
There's still a lot that has to happen before the end will come.
Thank-you for your input - I do however hear "Jesus sakes" and "for Christ sakes" used the most.
thank you so much. i ask these questions all the time. and never get a good real response.
Shawn,
I don't subscribe to the argument that God's omniscience is a contradiction to human freewill. I'm aware of that argument, but I don't particularly think it's a strong one. (It could be argued that God's omniscience is a contradiction to His OWN freewill, but that's another issue.)
However, this video has nothing to do with that. I'm wondering if you're confusing it with something else, or if you possibly didn't finish the video but assumed it would be about that?
Good point.
I understand your view on that, but I will leave you with just one more question. Who do you propose to worship?
Woops! Should be there, now.
If hell is justice, isn't salvation injustice, insofar as it is mercy?
I don't think that. The research shows that. The reason is obvious, being, if you convince someone their behavior is pre determined, they stop trying to control their actions to an extent immediately, and more and more over time.
Martin Luther wrote a book: THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL.
I think preventing the serpent from deceiving eve would violate the free will of the serpent.
Still, of course God would have known all that would happen before he set everything up that way.
Sidenote: I recently saw Hovind state that snakes "dont have vestigal legbones"... Of course, the bible claims exactly that, the serpent had legs, god took it as punishment for this temptation...
Genesis 3 explains the fall of man came about because the Devil in the form of serpent caused Eve to doubt God. She and Adam disobeyed God by taking from the Tree of knowledge, thus leading to shame and distrust, then exile from Eden.
This is how sin came to be in the world, and Cancer is just one of those things that people can fall prey to in this evil world.
If God executes on his plan to defeat satan, eliminate suffering, and take his righteous now, then many people just like our friend in the video above would be out of luck. You see, when God returns to take the world back from satan, all those who followed satan, like our friend here will be out of time. So it is more loving to give us more time to come to him. He will come in his own time. Our job in the mean time is to choose a side, and bring souls to our side, as our friend here clearly is.
I don't think anyone should be worshiped by virtue of the power that happens to be attributed to his/her essence. In general I dislike the term worship. But to stick with your terminology, I think we should worship proven methods for maintaining harmonious interpersonal relationships and gathering empirical evidence that assists the advancement of human quality of life.
Excellent video. I always thought why didn't Jesus keep a diary while he was down here, why did he rely his adventures being ghost-written? It would have at least saved his flock from arguing amongst themselves if they had the account straight from the horse's mouth.
If you wanted your pancake eater to have free will, than you would not hardwire him to like pancakes. You would give him a clean slate.
Could someone clarify for me, doesn't God's whole thing revole around faith. The whole point is that you're supposed to believe God exists by having faith in the validity of the Bible. Like isn't there more rules than just simply he cannot violate a persons free will, but that he also wants you to believe in him just off of what the bible tells you. Of course this isnt logically sound but I thouhgt that was what Christians believed.
kwes
Really? Please enlighten us. Just provide a couple examples. I'm really curious about your claim since I was a Xian for over 50 yrs before I became an Atheist. So I'd like to delve into this a lot deeper.
More questions for the end of the video: Isn't it true that God could've made things that are really fun (e.g., sex) NOT wrong? Couldn't he have chosen a less ignorant group of people to reveal himself to the first time (e.g., the Egyptians, the Greeks) or the second time (e.g., the Romans)?
Articulate is not the right word. I see a few people saying that here, and other places.
He says "um uh" a lot, and sometimes rambles, all of which are not articulate. I think what you mean, is he sounds smart and has a good way of making himself understood.
Where's the link?
You are completely glossing over electrical resistance, psychology, the frontal lobe, and impulse/control. Just because my brain makes a decision to slap you in the face, what we call an impulse, does not mean that I HAVE to slap you. In the delay between the time the impulse is formed, and the time my hand impacts your head, I have an opportunity to intercept that signal and change it. There is a disorder in which the subjects have less or a lack of impulse control.
Exactly. So obviously the world could have been more pure if the serpent wasn't present. How do you justify the Devil's presence when an omnipotent god by definition has the choice to eradicate him?
This is a five star video
Awesome. Well explained.
-> Even though Adam and Eve made the wrong choice, and listened to the serpent, and became fallen as a result, God still planned to redeem his creation's fallen nature through what he accomplished with Christ, and undo what Adam and Eve's choice from the beginning caused.
God allows evil in the world, just as he allowed Satan as a serpent to exist in Eden, so that we could choose to obey and trust God's faithfulness in our lives rather than listen to Satan's deceptions, though we've sinned. ->
Yea somebody else brought up pancakes. I can't take full credit.
The concept of free will is incompatible with an omniscient god. If he knows precisely everything we are ever going to do, then that means in some sense the future is set, and the idea that we have a choice in the actions we take is only an illusion.
And if God really does exist and is omniscient, he knew before he even created me that my soul was destined for hell. Why would he create souls that are predestined to go to hell?
Lars..
"But not to worry. 1,440,000 judges will decide if given your misconceptions you'd be a wonderful asset for eternity."
I like that! Never heard that 1 before.
But isn't isn't all of that a terrible waste of time? I mean, god already knows every aspect of our natures (he made us), he knows every thought we R going to have, every move we make. Why go thru all the BS? Pointless, senseless!
If an angel pretends to be a homeless person, where does he hide his wings? :-)
And satan does not require you to believe in him for you to do his bidding. He believes in you just fine. There are only two ways to go in the end, and if one rejects God, then he goes to satan. Believe it or not. I do have to wonder why someone would devote so much time to trying to bring souls away from something they believe in that gives them hope, and love, and bring them to a place that promotes sin, and lawlessness, and emptiness. Could it be satan?
did i forget to buy milk?....HAHA LOL
The Bible says to test the spirits and hold on to the good. I do not know the spirit of asherah.
no...I was referring to religious doctrines...
I am an agnostic.
So the punishment for not believing him a god that left no real evidence of him existing is eternal torture. That's pretty messed up.
You rock
Yeah, but don't judge that your own actions would be consistent with everyone else's. As he pointed out, there are people even in the Bible who see God, interact with God and still choose not to believe. It may sound absurd, but if God appeared to you, how could you be sure it's God, and not some alien or demigod posing as Yahweh/Jesus?
All god would have to do (or have done) is impart the ability to know when something is (emphasis on *is*) false. All-powerful, right? That wouldn't necessarily make us more intelligent. That wouldn't necessarily directly improve our ability to understand, reason or recall. That wouldn't let us predict the future, though it should allow us to better predict outcomes, being less prone to misinformation. Science would accelerate. Religious claims would stand or fall on their own veritas.
Well, there you go. Evidence is required to come to a conclusion. If your conclusion is little green men, you will then make a decision to accept that, or not to and keep searching for another conclusion.
Prove to me Yahweh exist & I will follow his commandments for all eternity.
Nice!
"Right, but you missed my point. Even if some strange being appeared to us and said "I'm god", we couldn't know for certain that that creature wasn't deceiving us."
The fact you didn't know for certain would tip you off it wasn't God. Evidently being in his physical presenece is quite daunting according to the Bible. If it isn't, then it isn't God.
Eloquent
Socra...
As an Atheist, or non-believer, which I prefer, I have never said a "creator" can't exist or doesn't exist. How could I, or anyone know such a thing.
No, my position is that I don't believe the Xian version of god (yahweh/Jesus) were gods, based on Xians inability to substantiate their claims that he "does" exist. I take it further by saying that I don't believe the supernatural claims in scripture R true & I use scripture as evidence.
I just don't believe in a personal god.
The KJV NT teaches of Hell, with only a handful of statements that describe it being eternal, with even those being vague.
The Greek version teaches of Gehenna which has no reference of being eternal and has much more metaphorical meaning.
The very existence of an eternal place of torture is antithetical to the concept of a loving God, so I don't even know why you are trying to argue this.
How do you know god is outside space and time? Even the bible does not say that. There is no verse in the bible that says "god is outside space and time." It say's he's eternal. But it never mentions "space" in the sense of outerspace or the universe. So there cannot be any teaching in the bible that says god is outside space and time. The word closest word to this idea in the bible is heavens.
Well put! Good job! I LOVE this one! Your sooooo intelligent it makes me smile! :) I'm glad I subscribed to your videos!
God doesnt want to compel us into belief. He could make Himself known to everyone in such a way that everyone knows for sure that He exists, but He doesnt care about people knowing about His existence, because He wants a genuine relationship. Many atheists say that if they knew God exists, they still wouldnt worship Him. His goal is to have a relationship, and if He revealed Himself fully to people, they would be in a sense "forced" to be in relationship with Him.
I know you exist with pretty good certainty, and have little interest in establishing a deep relationship with you (no offense, I'm sure the feeling is mutual). You may or may not respond to this or we might exchange a few more comments, but at some point we'll both move on and likely mostly leave each others' awareness for the rest of our lives.
As TBS said in the video, the apprehension of knowledge doesn't impair free will. Either way, I'm not at all interested in a relationship with a being that has the power to make his existence known to me in any number of impressive ways but instead prefers to make it a significant cognitive burden for me to even be convinced he's real in the first place. This preference of mine is a consequence of who I am, who this God would have created me to be were he real. Why does this god create beings who are ill-disposed to the cognitive burden with which he insists on saddling us?
If God determined the laws of the universe, couldn't he arrange it so that everyone could be guaranteed to heaven without screwing with free will? Of course that's ridiculous with our laws, but for a being with the ability to skew the foundations of reality...
If we were at one time not here, and then brought into existence ex nihilo through the power of a "Being," then your claim that something cannot come from nothing is thus self-refuted. Additionally, the logical claim that "something cannot come from nothing" is vacuous unless you can demonstrate what "nothing" is in a way that has explanatory power.
-> God is Omnipotent. Meaning that he doesn't exist within our perception of Time. He MADE Time. There isn't anything in the realm of what he has created that he's not aware of, past, present, and future, and that includes Satan.
Meaning, Adam and Eve could have just as easily. trusted God and continued to live in fellowship with God in Eden. But the fact remains that they both rebelled against God, by their own volition, because of what a crafty Serpent told them. ->
this imaginary "god' can heal the sick, but doesn't...he can feed the starving but doesn't.
Spiderman is true, there are lot's of books written about him (only 1 about god)
Good comment. But this situation's even worse. Guessing doesn't have as much to do with it as much as simply being born into a society in which a particular religion is predominant. D:
After having been raised to believe that Allah is the true god, how much more difficult is it to come to the conclusion that the god of Christianity is "true"?? LOL at that situation. (but not really, because one's life could be at stake for admitting apostasy)
That's fine by me.
how do you know that what the bible said is tru
Isnt it true that god didnt do everything in his power? Ok from a bible based Christian this is the most simple question to answer he gave his only son for us. From a christian i would love to debate what your saying but you didnt back anything up with scpiture.There was alot there so only answered your last question. People love talking down about god of the bible yet not back anything they say up with the bible. Great peek a boo video also enjoyed both.
he didnt create our souls to die so we have two choices ...him or you
If god were to actually reveal itself, it would not effect free will and I have an example to prove this.
There is a mountain of evidence that evolution is true yet there are thousands of christians who refuse to acknowledge it and thus choose to believe that evolution is not true.
But then again christians are great at ignoring contradictions.
Why was that in response to what I said?
Anyhow, this video is about Christianity. So, show us where in the Bible that it says God is a living organism (Jesus does not count).
@lilmunch64 Most Christians believe that they would have free will in Heaven, so apparently god could have done just that. I guess "he" didn't want to.
You spoke as if you were mocking me, and I do think mockery is a joke.
Okay, I can't give you ten years of Sunday school on youtube, but suffice it to say God wants us to seek him freely, and have faith. That is what he wants, period. Now if he says here is irrefutable evidence that you will die if you turn left, and here is irrefutable evidence that you will live forever if you turn right, who in their right mind will turn left? Nobody, and God wants our love, not blind allegiance out of fear. Read about Job.
Unlike Bible, Koran was sent in Arabic language and remain so till now. That is why there are no alteration in its contents.
Unlike angels, human are meant to be tested here in this world to prove that he/she is worthy to enter the Heaven.
You are talking about completely different things. You are predicting what your mom will do based on your experience with what she has done in the past.
Supposedly, God knows every detail of everything we are ever going to do, and everything everyone is ever going to do, even before they are born, because he sees beyond time. It is not a prediction based on experience of past events, it's just knowledge of all things that will ever transpire.
Now how asinine is that? God created a serpent that would pose an unnecessary risk to the purity of life. He even sets up a contingency plan for the serpent corrupting Adam and Eve. "Not hard to think about." That's not the point. When the purported creator is maximally powerful, it's difficult to conjure up anything that isn't hard to imagine. The point is WHY create the serpent when there is only a downside by doing so. Again, it's asinine and you're deluding yourself if you don't agree.
"The bible clearly teaches that all mankind will be saved by Jesus." So what's the point. Go home, and be happy that we'll all be saved.
It's showing you have faith in Christ, and that you follow in his footsteps and live a life that glorifies him, praising him through both good times in your life and the horrible times. Doing as his will reveals in our life and not by our will, and trusting him all the way, do we prove we have confidence in Christ, accepting the salvation the Bible explains he offers when we turn to him.
If it were true that God has done everything in his power to keep people from Hell, then people wouldn't go to hell. Simple as that. He is supposedly the most powerful and intelligent being Amen. Since people do go to Hell according to the Bible then he has not done everything in his power. Makes sense.
Getting away from the argument over the existence of any being of god like abilities, and forgetting the vast differences between those that have been proposed throughout history, we can skip ahead to the Christian proposition of it's creator god, and the origin of "sin". After all, it is the supposed "original sin", that is the entire basis for the Christian belief system, their story of man's history on this planet, and their faith. This of coarse must also be tied to the concept of eternal life, the existence of the human soul, and the supernatural realm in which their god resides and their souls must end up in.
So, as it is described, man's original sin, takes the form of some sort of disobedience of god, often seen as making a choice to want some kind knowledge that god did not want him to have or perhaps it is not the knowledge itself but the desire to have it, that constitutes the "sin". From the "point of view of this god", which is what the Bible professes,.. it is rebellion against authority, or rejection of his care and love, that angered this god, and brought him to "cast man from the garden." In human terms, this is not at all unlike the feelings of a child, who is finally old enough to want his own answers, because it seems that his parents have given him only those fake ones to scare him away from harmful things, thinking that he is not ready for the truth yet. Punishment comes swiftly to the disobedient child, and yet he will persist in his pursuit of the truth, even as he risks much pain and the loss of his fathers love. I don't know if you see what I see, but I think people carry these things throughout their lives, and there is an apprehension and a risk of guilt when we step away from the guidance of our elder and choose a path that is not approved.. Is this god, just our perception of that elder, that father, that authority? Is this whole thing just the psychology of our species? Isn't it far more reasonable that this is our reality, and these gods are metaphor for our truth, than the belief that the gods are the reality, and our lives are merely toys in their hands? Perhaps the knowledge that we have stolen from the forbidden reality, has always been the goal, and this sin is our regret for the past, and the fear we gave to the father who tried only to love and protect his child.? . The garden is that safe place behind our father's leg, isn't it?
It was as much his garden too, in that he knew we were safe. Those of you who have children know this, don't you?
There is no justice in that, I never said there was. I was just pointing out what the bible states. It is a pasage that both contradicts human free will and that god is just.
what are you talking bout?
@nosajj12345 Funny enough, that was the reason I became an atheist when I was around 10 or so.
so he sucks out their talents? you expect people to believe this?
I've never actually been an atheist, but from what I've seen from the outside looking in, it doesn't look appealing.
If you study your bible a little more you will understand why this is, since God explains himself on why he is in the world less today.
I am gay and I concur, and also wish that he would make at least ONE video shirtless! ;-)
So if evil is implemented as part of God's admirable plan for the universe, then evil is actually good in a way. So why even bother condemning acts you believe are evil? According to you it's all part of God's plan, so you might see resistance of evil as defiance of God. You see the problem with this mentality? You can justify anything as beneficial to humanity through a Christian lens by going back to the argument that it's all part of God's plan. Dangerous thinking in a practical sense.
Really? I'm not the one whom wasted time writing a long winded poem. "how do you guys say it? The answer lies on the whispering wind." - No, and to be honest I have also never heard a person of any religious background utter this phrase in casual conversation, who do you converse with exactly? And why are you deleting all of your previous posts?
Good question. I'll have to think about it. Off the top of my head, I'd say that I wouldn't believe that what I had just seen actually happened. My questions would need to be answered. Too many problems with the idea of this god would remain for me, despite having had a vision, which could be explained by a number of things... "God" would have to somehow show me the resolutions to these theological problems. THAT would absolutely do it for me.