DESTINED TO FALL SHORT...OR English Club Resurgence? Champions Cup
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- Опубликовано: 7 май 2024
- English Clubs Destined to FALL SHORT in The Champions Cup OR English Resurgence?
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The "Leinster have all the money in the world" narrative is getting so boring.
All Leinster players are developed through the academy with a very, very small percentage being imports.
Lowe and JGP are the only two imports making the first team. Jenkins, Ala'alatoa and Ngatai are the other imports (two of which are leaving), but are second string backups.
Leinster players want to stay at Leinster because they are from Leinster and grow up dreaming of playing for Leinster - they don't have money thrown at them.
There's no grand conspiracy. They are just a good club and develop good players.
Leinsters squad is paid more than any other in the world. They might have developed most of the players but they use their money, and IRFU money, and the incentives from tax breaks to keep those players. There are plenty other rugby areas in the world who develop as good players but are not able to keep them.
So, yes, they might not import players like certain French clubs, but they are absolutely one of, if not the, wealthiest clubs in world rugby
They also get massive tax breaks for staying in Ireland, and the salaries are way higher than any English club.
Lowe scored all 3 of your tries Vs Northampton, 2 of them from JGP assists. And you have 2 RWC finalists on the way next season in Snyman and Barrett.
You may find it boring, but it's factual. Stop being so defensive about it.
What is not mentioned either is the irish teams are only allowed 3 non irish qualified players per squad so they can't just go out and buy whoever they want to solve gaps in their squads like English and French clubs can. As a result irfu pays irish players good money to stay in ireland
It's the central contracts that make it a bit complex I think but agree with what you say. Sheehan and kelleher are a perfect example. Should Leinster offer kelleher a contract that's significantly beneath his market value? Should they just move him on? If so why bother developing these players
Both things can be true at the same time
How many internationals did Saracens have when the dominated Europe? Also Leicester and Wasps?
Certainly Saracens had 5 or 6 England players, they also had quality overseas players like Will Skelton, Vincent Koch, Brits etc.
Sarried broke the salary cap to do it and we're relegated for it
Yeah problem with Quins and Saints are they're lightweight's. Scroing pretty tries in tbe premiership is one thing but competing for silverware with big dogs in the premiership or European rugby is another.
Revenue is key, so stay at 10 clubs in premiership to consolidate incomes, talent and minimise the strain on player game time. But there has to be an intelligent system and strategy underpinning the development of English clubs and talent (lots of clear lessons in France and Ireland). Such as central contracts, material incentives for academy development, functioning international pathway using U20's, 7's and Saxons and a professional second tier to foster a large talent base. What we dont need is increased incomes going straight out to high cost foreign players.
Every Premiership club is losing money and in major debt (between 15M and 56M)... as businesses, they are not sustainable. Clearly, something has to change.
From what I've seen, we have the following options... (I would be very keen to hear if there's a better alternative...).
1. We move to a provincial structure (which used to have games under SSW, London, North & Midlands) under central contracts and the club game becomes secondary and semi-pro... Similar to Ireland, NZ, Wales, Australia etc.
2. We take the France option and review their structure, funding, TV rights, and the relationship between the RFU and the clubs.
If we don't sort it out and make the changes the game will continue its current demise in England with player numbers falling year over year...
The best guess for the Irish provinces for their wages is Leinster - €14 million, Munster & Ulster - €12 million and Connacht - €10 million
The IRFU give equal funding to the provinces so the differences are down to the central contracts & income made by the provinces themselves
Academy & Central Contract players are paid by the IRFU. And some players are paid for in part or fully by private funding which makes it even harder to work out what the province themselves are paying. Snyman & De Allende for Munster were part private funding, and apparently Snyman and Barret are fully private funded for Leinster next year
Fantastic insight
A good proportion of Leinster internationals are on Central contracts paid by IRFU
Only time will tell what you need to remember is both the semi final winners have far more experience feasting at the top of the table and were playing at home (deservedly so winning to get there)) but I think these are all factors, neither prem teams were blown out of the water which I think many of us had concerns over, unfortunately both will probably experience a season or two minimum in decline due to end of season exodus which where where both finalists really excel, keeping the core of a squad together for a sustained period will always help.
If its international experience then England could cap all eligible players for Saints this summer and Autumn. Saints would then have loads of internationals , wont really make them better players though. If leinster are the richest team then good aa they have built a system over the last couple of decades .
How many established internationals do the 2 scottish teams have. How about the 2 italian sides. Comparison between a national side with 4 feeder clubs (ireland) and a national side with 10 (england) is not very useful.
@qcsorter4626
0 seconds ago
England beat Ireland in the 6 Nations and England were the only country to have two teams in the semi-finals, both of whom could have won. I'd say glass half full
England beating Ireland was a big deal for sure! Ireland were a bit weakened with injury and the coach did not make good calls. If England win again this year then it's a resurgence otherwise it's just a bump on the journey for Ireland who won the six nations
England beat Ireland in the 6 Nations, from a foot in touch and was scored on the 3rd Phase and phases can only be checked to the 2nd phase... but yep well done, keep celebrating that win, it almost means something now.
Leinster is a great club and a great work environment. Players who grow up in Leinster dream of playing for them. They would rather stay with Leinster than move to other Irish provinces even if it means that they don't get as much game time or money. The majority of Leinster player will get not get Irish caps so they could move to France if they wanted to. Jordi Barrett could have made twice the amount of money if he went on a sabbatical to Japan. He chose to come to Leinster so he could improve as a player. That tells you everything you need to know about Leinster Rugby.
English teams have improved this year. But I believe they need to be on another level to go further in this championship. Quins showed that just been an attacking side will always get found out eventually. But the sheer amount of rugby players English teams can choose from they should be preforming better . Academy is the way to go not wages get the youth properly trained and looked after the rest will follow. If England think they can buy there way to success its the wrong way to go…
I agree that English Clubs have performed well this year. However the clubs are restricted on the number of players they can have in their squad by the cap. The premiership are currently discussing slimming the clubs squad numbers to 35 plus X number of academy players. It’s not a matter of buying talent , that ship already sailed . The issue for success in Europe is squad player numbers they can draw on. Leinster, Toulouse, La Rochelle have squads of over 50 players on their roster. Saints and Northampton did exceptionally well to get as far as they did but as for future English success in Europe it will be down to squad numbers calling them to compete domestically and in Europe. While how the premiership finances itself is their own issue , the European Championship has never been a level playing field and that doesn’t detract from the success of clubs like Leinster, however the reality is that as it stands Premiership and Welsh clubs won’t challenge the European Tournaments in the future just because they if the Premiership reduce playing squads further as they are planning they simply won’t be able to compete domestically as well as in Europe
You need a big pack to compete at European level or even finals of the premiership. I don't see lasting dynasties for Quins or Saints unless they build that and I don't see other clubs building squads as strong as peak Sarries/Wasps/Leicester.
Leinster are one of four Irish Provincial teams. So they are always going to have a lot of Ireland Internationals in that team, especially since Ulster and Connacht don't habe many Irish Internationals.
Northampton is one of 10 English pro teams, all of which potentially contribute to the England International team. So English teams are always going to have less percentage of England Internationals in it by comparison with Leinster, which is the main supplier of talent in the Irish team.
Finn smith said it was Leinster's speed off the line that threw them in the first half. They never experienced that in the Premiership. Leinster won nothing in the last 2 years so money didnt help.
Did Harry Williams get at least 10 caps for England?
If Leinster had a consistent 10 they would be blowing everyone away
Let's not forget Harlequins were already à bit lucky to be in the semi final. A 1 pt win in the quarter that could very much habe gone yhe other way with a missed kick by Lucu. And even if their come back at the beginning of second half was impressive, they did lose by more than 10 points against Toulouse. Northampton were closer on the scoreboard and it's quite obvious that playing in Dublin is something else. So i think Northampton can have regrets with all the dropped balls in the 1st half but Quins already overachieved wich makes their complains about the ref all the more insufferable
Saints were missing Pearson, Ludlum and Hutchinson who have international caps, I’d be surprised if Sleightholme hasn’t got a cap by the end of the summer as well. So the numbers are probably closer than the Saints team on the day.
No doubt that the occasion got to them though, they were shellshocked in those first 30 minutes, but grew into the game very late on. I think Saints will take a lot away from their day at Croke Park, and it should serve them well over the next few weeks and into next season, despite losing some big names. I’d be surprised if we don’t see a core of Saints players making up the England team over the next few years too.
One other point here is the quality of the coaching. English clubs are spending on large coaching teams and might be getting more out of cheaper players?
I think the money spent on coaching by leinster. Cheika Lancaster contemponi goodman jaques Ne... and Tyler ble... is the best money they spent
England are having a resurgence in both international and club level. Premiership is stronger with less clubs. Top players form those clubs that left have straightened the rest.
If leinster had half the wages or double...it wouldnt make a difference. Leinster are not this strong because of wages....its because the leinster system and dublin private schools etc in general are just better. 10 yrs ago the english and french were outspending the irish provinces...how many leinster players left for bigger wages then? The salary cap is the english excuse for the mess they made of their whole domestic rugby system...they tried to cash in on professionalism and sold the soul of english rugby. English rugby is 10x the size of irish rugby....english underperformance is dramatic.
There is no doubt that Leinster is a fantastic set up with a successful player catchment and academy. However to deny that their substantial player funding by the IFU and private donors that allows them to maintain a large squad and keep their star players is not a contributer to their success is just being naive. The European Championship or Heineken Cup has never been a level playing field field and I doubt it never will. However despite your protestations Leinster has always historically been able to match the Premiership and French sides financially.
Personally I have no problem with how Leinster are financed, I actually like the way that Irish Rugby finance themselves . The fact Leinster can keep developing players and maintain large squads makes them well positioned to compete in the URC and the European tournaments. This is a positive but let’s not pretend that their financial support isn’t an advantage over say the Welsh sides or arguably the premiership sides some who will have a playing squad on 35 compared to Leinsters 58 players and then pretend there is a level playing field.
. Yes the English Premiership is in crisis with 3 clubs going to the wall. The salary cap is just one of many factors behind it. However you can’t draw a simple comparison with the Irish model as the clubs developed with professionalism and are funded and organised completely differently.
Certainly English premiership rugby has to change to a model that works, whether that means perhaps merging and consolidating some clubs into regional entities, or rethinking how the game is financed , and developing a new competition that will increase revenue as well as develop the game there.
As for English rugby underperformance, I think that is arguable.
EnglandsRugby team has certainly fallen from its performances in 2019 to bad performances in the 6 Nations to losing their coach to the level of inconsistency that we have seen this year .
In Europe Saracens led the Premiership sides into Europe, winning two titles in 2015 and 2016 followed by Irelands last success in the EU by Leinster in 2017 and they were followed by Saracens again and then Exeter the last year.
Now this means nothing today as Leinster look like they could win the title this year but with two English teams in the semis , I would hardly call that underperforming.
As I wrote before, I like the Irish system and I like Leinster. They have a good player development and pathway , an excellent academy and an excellent team. To me it doesn’t matter that they are well financed they are compared to other sides and they are able to put together and retain such a good squad. But to somehow suggest that Leinsters players budget has never been at the top end of teams and irrelevant to their success is dishonest.
So the players aren't given a huge rebate to stay?
Money makes the difference. Don't kid yourself
This is an odd statement, if they paid less they would regularly have players leave! Both things can be true!
Some truth in what you say, it is however a minority sport and doesn’t have the spectatorship many think it does in England.
Northhampton and Quins definitely missed an opportunity as they won't be nearly as good next year with their departures
on flip side of that is the fact that they will simply end up at "bigger" GP teams so is there any difference between other leagues, the teams with the finance are the ones that inevitably rise or stay at the top...
They didn’t miss an opportunity they were beaten by better teams and if they were to play them 10 more times they would lose at least 9 .the teams that beat them are on a different level they must get to this level to compete .
I don't know about quins but saints have lost key players (captains, best players, internationals) every season for 3 or 4 seasons now and have always found a way to replace and improve upon them.
Dan Biggar, dave ribbans and salakaia loto last season
Before that it was Harrison (captain), Naiyaravoro and Ratuniyarawa.
And before that it was the best 9 in the league (arguably the world) Cobus Reinach.
I'm not gonna try and play down the loss of Lawes, Waller, Ludlam and Moon, cus that would be... insane.
But I back the coach's to use the talent we've acquired and already have at the club.
Would have been good if the games were played on neutral grounds not in Ireland or France?
Why would it have been good , they were higher seeds . Where should they play it then. Nonsense
It’s quite tricky, the games would have had to be played in Wales, Scotland or Italy. Maybe something to consider I suppose.
Home advantage. Both Quins and Saints could have won with home advantage.
Coulda, shoulda, woulda.. if the two clubs had have done better in the early stages they could have had home advantage. Bottom line is they lost. I’m happy that the English clubs performed better, because I believe Rugby will be better with a strong contingency from the premiership. However, they lost regardless of performance against the best teams currently in Europe.
if it was the other way around and the english teams were winning, this would not be an issue - as always the english team are so bias
The English are just trying to come up with every excuse possible, they slate Leinster and Toulouse for choice of venues. Even tho the rule says no home stadium, does not say anything about home City stadium. If yous want that same treatment top your groups, as its there for everyone. 🙄
Now lets keep banging the Leinster hate drum and see what pops out 😂 honestly pathetic, all the Leinster lads are home grown from the provance of you guessed it "LEINSTER" they're only allowed 3 foreign players, and the Central contracted players are on stricked playing time/minutes from the IRFU
Theres only 4 professional teams in Ireland the 4 provances, so thats why you get the high concentration. Munster and Ulster dont tap into their potential properly at all, eventho Munster were told to make a proper system years ago.
Anyways i digress, the spending isn't huge at Leinster, no where near the French top 14 or even the Pro D2
Nothing like having a rant or having a real cry about an opinion on an English pod cast . 2 English sides got as far as the semis and for some reason discussing it upsets you.
Apparently few Engish journalists critising the home games Leinster enjoyed is representative of the English.
Relax most English fans didn't even know it happened and I doubt most of the rest care.
Also no-one hates Leinster , why would you think that?
Pointing out that the Irish teams are funded differently and tjen complimenting that it works isn't being critical .
Also commenting on the disparity between the player budgets between Leinster and an English sides in this year's competition isn't an excuse, he is clearly about that.
The European Champions jas never been a level playing field and everybody knows it so there is no need to have a cry about Leinsters players budget. Personally I like Leinster, it's a fantastic club and set up . That said pretending that Leinsters players budget isn't comparable to most T14 sides is just perpetuating the worst kept secret in Rugby .
VERY selective in naming the England capped or even non-English capped players there in your assessment Tim, I mean you mentioned some of the Irish lads that didn't make 6N squads THIS YEAR so either they are test players or not name them all or not. Also It stands to reason that Leinster would have more test players as there are only 4 teams in Ireland compared to 10 in England... again... think you are making figures fit the narrative here... As for the financial figures, how many of the GP teams have been found in breach of them so they are a nothing element in comparing other leagues as the GP teams are paying just as much! Lets be honest here This screams of nothing but GP fans screaming unfair when reality is EVERYONE is on their system if you don't like your own then do something moaning is not a good sign
No moaning here, just discussing
@rugbyanalyst needs to be balanced though, Ireland has a set up completely different to either France or England where we have Provience in England and France there are clubs. Both are managed and totally different. The budgets of the T14 teams also Tim are greater than ALL of the IRFU's 4 of which even though some think otherwise Ulster, Munster and Leinster's share is quite equal when you take in to account the distribution of funds to the Provience as a whole it's not all about the 15/23 match day players but the Provience, Academy, Development and coaching staff (at all levels from schools to 1st team) and biggest for some Stadium financing support. This module doesn't work or is in situe in the GP or T14 where clubs are separate entities and like I said public figures of spending in the T14 is about as frightening as it gets case in point last year LRC had over €35m that is for their team which had more internationals that Leinster and who also have players off book on JIFF contracts…. I think the GP need to get it’s act together and iron out where and what they want with their RU no different to what France did several years ago, with JIFF and other financial matters. Till the GP do this and make it work they are going to drift further and further from the T14/Irish teams.
I don’t think it’s a stretch to say the distribution of international players is very concentrated in the French and Irish leagues towards compared to English sides. Playing week in and week out + international level gives a big advantage, it’s no one’s fault but I don’t think he’s actually said anything wrong by pointing the advantage at club/ international level that is gained by following this system.
Tim? Thought his name was Rich!
The breaches you mention (Sarries aside) were generally pretty minimal and in no way bridge the gap, the fact that the only premiership team who’s significantly breached caps has enjoyed a strong period in Europe and had a strong international contingent really adds weight to Rich’s analysis here. Take emotions and bias out of the conversation, the Irish and French setups and stability is vastly superior as it stands that’s not open for debate, the English system is flawed and does put the teams our teams at a disadvantage, is that the problem of Irish or French sides, no it isn’t that doesn’t mean we can’t internally discuss and try to break down why it is that way.
Definitely a resurgence
Collier is leaving Quins, so unlikely to be in their future team