Can we REBALL a BGA / GPU with a cheap hot air station 858D?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
- LER #216 A couple weeks ago I published a poll. asking viewers to vote how they would like me to Reball a BGA GPU chip. The options were:
With my BGA Rework Station / With a Quick 861DW / With a cheap 858D Hot Air station
Guess which option got the most Votes......
I work in collaboration with:
The Electronics Channel (live streams with Carlos and Detlef)
/ @theelectronicschannel
Gran Canaria Uncovered
/ @grancanariauncovered (with Detlef and Julie. Not electronics related)
Det Builds Stuff - / @detbuildsstuff (Detlef)
Retro Upgrade - / @retroupgrade (Carlos)
For All Your PCB needs: free $5 discount coupon
www.pcbway.com...
Equipment used in my videos. These are affiliate links, you pay the normal price and I make a small commission.
TEST METERS
ANENG AN8009 MULITIMETER
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/4da4Q7h
amzn.to/4fsjkkm
amzn.to/3yuf03q
amzn.to/4fwQOOD
www.banggood.c...
KAIWEETS HT118E MULTIMETER
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/3yC0ZRe
amzn.to/3SHIEcy
www.banggood.c...
VC480C+ MILLIOHM METER
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/46Gg1Cm
amzn.to/3YwUjyn
MESR-100 ESR METER
amzn.to/3yxQ0Zd
amzn.to/3WSr73A
s.click.aliexp...
XC6013L CAPACITOR METER
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/4cf2lzm
amzn.to/4dw9cp5
TM-902C TEMPERATURE METER
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/4fAz44L
amzn.to/4fBxD69
LCR-T4 COMPONENT ANALYZER
s.click.aliexp...
www.banggood.c...
amzn.to/3X4rOHv
amzn.to/3Agcj6h
FNB58 USB ANALYZER
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/3MgBFnn
amzn.to/4dyLU1H
www.banggood.c...
PCI POST ANALYZER
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/4dd8ihw
amzn.to/3LTpeO7
TL460S PLUS PCI_E ANALYZER
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/3WEsdi6
TOOLTOP ET120MC2 SCOPE
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/4dCaz5L
amzn.to/4dxOYLt
FNIRSI 1014D SCOPE
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/3AdZqK1
www.banggood.c...
NPS3010W 30V 10A PSU
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/4dzl2yM
T12 STATION WITH M8 9501 HANDLE
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/46E73W6
M8 9501 HANDLE
s.click.aliexp...
YIHUA 982 Soldering Station C210/C245
s.click.aliexp...
FNIRSI HS-02 PORTABLE SOLDERING C210/C245
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/3Yv7Ma5
QUICK 861DW
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/3WDF4B5
amzn.to/4ci7rdW
PROS'KIT SS-331H
s.click.aliexp...
INFIRAY P2 PRO IR CAMERA + MACRO LENS
s.click.aliexp...
www.banggood.c...
amzn.to/4coSRle
amzn.to/4coSV4s
TOOLTOP ET13S THERMAL CAMERA METER
s.click.aliexp...
ET13S MACRO LENS
s.click.aliexp...
OPTICAL MICROSCOPE
s.click.aliexp...
usa.banggood.c...
amzn.to/4dzBA9G
TOMLOV TM4K AF FLEX
amzn.to/3LY0YKs
tomlov.com/pro...
TL866 II+ PROGRAMMER
s.click.aliexp...
amzn.to/3SGKL05
CH341 PROGRAMMER
s.click.aliexp...
NC-559-ASM FLUX
s.click.aliexp...
DESOLDER BRAID (I use size 8045)
s.click.aliexp...
s.click.aliexp...
HX-T100 SOLDER (0.6MM)
s.click.aliexp...
ESD-11 TWEEZERS
s.click.aliexp...
Learn Electronics Repair is now on Discord! Come and join the fun, it's free.
/ discord
If you would like to support this channel
You can send donations
www.paypal.com...
You can subscribe to Patreon
/ learnelectronicsrepair
You can click Join to become a channel member
Thank you
Richard
![FNAF Into the Pit has A LOT of Unused Graphics | LOST BITS [TetraBitGaming]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/6YhZCRdipl4/mqdefault.jpg)
FOR THOSE WHO NOTICED THE BGA WAS REPLACED THE WRONG WAY ROUND
You are correct, and I should have checked the earlier recordings to make sure I put it back the correct way, but there are some mitigating circumstances here...
If you look at 0:24:50 before I remove the chip you will see that the arrow is NOT pointing to the corner where the silk screen markings show a diagonal corner!!! There is a dot (one of two dots on the BGA) lined up with this marking, and the arrow is pointing to one of the three 'normal' corners on the silk screened marking, indicating nothing useful about the correct orientation.
1:09:26 So a this point I make an 'incorrect assumption' that the arrow should point towards the marked corner (diagonal) on the silk screen!
That is how I got it wrong. It's almost like the silk screen markings are wrong, the arrow should not point to the indicated corner, one of the two dots does. This just goes to show anyone can make a mistake, I should have double checked the earlier recording to check if it does or does not not go in what I considered the 'obvious' orientation. 🤔
This is not a good excuse, you nor I should ever rely on assumptions, we should always check to be certain. To assume makes an ASS out of U and ME.
I never powered up afterwards it as I was reading shorts - I could remove it again with the BGA machine and refit it if you guys want to see if it still works after all the mistreatment.😉
I think you should give it another go :D maybe still works , old pcbs/bgas have bad quality copper clad and delaminate from nothing , of course if its not flat balls won't reach so that could be an issue. good attempt anyways, really enjoyed the reballing by hand mini guide never tried it out.
Have a good one richard
We all make mistakes, I've lost count of how many KBC/IO chips I've resoldered wrongly due to the opposing dots!
The arrow on the BGA does match the flat corner on the silk screen. Check 30:49 and notice the two rows of "TP" on the bottom, now compare that with the chip orientation at 24:50. in relation to those two rows. You can use the ATI logo on the BGA as that is easier to see. The board gets flipped around several times in the video so it's hard to keep track of orientation.
I think you should try, it would be worth a watch, even just for intreage. Looking forward to this video. 😉
Just watched the vid and thought to myself it that the right way up,? So I've just kept taking screenshots and it was,hey ho ! Off to the taverna lol btw I'm not at this stage yet thanks for the vid rich...
I love to see skilled people working with the 858D and facing its limitations. Not because being difficult, but because being actually the one station I have. It really helps.
That is the one I own too. its not horrible for what I paid for it.
1:05:36 info for others: that "popcorn" effect on the surface (the bubble under solder mask), usually appears because of very rapid temperature increase. So it is not the value of temperature itself, but it is a time, which it was raised up. I mean - too quickly. Of course if you go slow but too high to 300-350 celsius it will appear as well, but the key is to warm up the chip to 150-170 in 3-5 minutes slowly and then from 170 to 200 by one celsius degree per one second and then from 200 to 240/250 by two degrees per one second. If you do it faster, then popcorn effect will appear. And that bubble usually makes a dead-short, because of delaminated/destroyed layers(levels) inside the chip.
With my BGA rework station, most of the profiles are about 6 minutes. If I guess the wrong profile for the thermal mass of the PCB and the temperature slowly gets too high then I get popcorning. So it is most likely caused by too much heat.
@@LearnElectronicsRepair I don't have rework station. I'm using for years, a huge bottom preheater, and cheap 858D hot air BUT I have a special nozzle (square box, big enough to cover whole chip) but with special feature - two stencils(strainer) welded inside that box and the small holes are not synced to each other (which force the hot air to flow NOT direct to the centre of the chip, but spread around the whole box/square nozzle) (this is also very important - if the hot air is on stand/handle then it will heat only the center point of silver core which is wrong) So when I'm doing reflow, the gpu board is on the preheater, and the hotair hangs on the stand handle, but that the square box nozzle is cover whole chip and the double stencil(strainer) inside nozzle keep the air flow equal everywhere. And then i MANUALY touch the switch of hot air to increase the temperature as I said before - In the last step by 2 celsius degrees per second from 200 to 240.
I made several dozen success reflows/reballings which this method without any popcorn effects. I'm telling it to you only because It tooks me one year to realize that, where was the problem. Before, using the same setup, I've killed a lof of chips! (with the poprcorn effect), I keeped correct temperature (below 250/240) but the gpus were dying, or the popcorn effect appears. So I thought that I doing it too long. Or the temperature is too high. No. Finally after a lot of destroyed chips and boards I found the answer that I increased temperature too quickly, by pressing and holding the temperature switch (rising up 10/20 degrees per second) or by starting whole process not from zero degrees but from 240 right away. That was the issue.
And also keep it mind - you used on the video a small nozzle - so even if you keep the correct temperature - then you are making a lot of PEAKS of temperature on different small spots. And you are moving the hotair around, making circles. This cannot provide STABLE, slow increasing temperature. So the popcorn effect will appear.
Also as you know, the thickness of the board and construction of the board (how many metal things or how many ground plates/tracks are inside the layers) makes the difference for heat profile. That is WHY I don't like professional Bga Rework Station because it makes you lazy to control whole process (run and forget) and that automated profile which was good for today's gpu, can kill tomorrow's other gpu because that profile will be wrong to the more thin board. But when I control the temperature manually by my self, counting seconds in my mind, I can adjust temperature in real time according to observation.
@@Radek__ Yeah!! there is a lot I agree with there. On my semi-auto fire and forget BGA machine both the top and bottom nozzles have a mesh of holes (I couldn't spell perforated correctly lol) to spread the heat. I don't believe that a professional BGA rework station makes you lazy, in fact it is perfect way to get repeatable results if you are working on the same type of PCB over and over again.
However I totally agree with your point that if you are working on a wide range of PCBs like I do, using the semi auto machine can become a bit of a burden as you have to use your own personal judgement to decide which profile you created matches the thermal mass of the board you are working on. After a lot of practice, and like you mention destroying a lot of chips and boards in the process of learning, you kinda get good at it, and though I will still make a mistake and destroy something occasionally , mostly I get it right now.
In my experience, as I only really use my automated BGA machine for this sort of work, it will only popcorn a chip if I select too hot a profile. And not any other reason as all the profiles are 5-6 minutes. On the other hand if I select too cool a profile it will either not lift the chip at all, forcing me to perform yet another heat cycle with a hotter profile which is bad for the BGA and PCB, or if I am really unlucky it will be almost hot enough and partially lift the chip then drop it, or lift the chip and take some BGA pads with it.
But that is just my experience I totally accept your opinion based on your experience with your equipment that heating the board/chip too quickly will also cause popcorning.
Regards nozzles, In the main part of the video, once I started to use the preheater, I removed the nozzle from the 858D so I don't really think that was a factor.
One thing I'm sure we both definitely agree on 100% is that the trick to this is to get the entire PCB slowly (4-5 minutes) up to a temperature high enough so that when you apply the hot air, it does not have to get the local area much hotter to remove the BGA 🙂
And one thing I hear again and again, from anyone who ever seriousy attempted this sort of work, and I must advise everyone else who is thinking of trying - if you are going to do this sort of repair with whatever equipment you chose from low end to high end, *be prepared to accept you will destroy a LOT of things, and accept the COST of doing that, before you will begin to master the art of doing this*
If you can't accept that then I'm sorry to say that BGA rework probably isn't for you
@@LearnElectronicsRepair Yes. And the funny thing is that - I could take your cheap hot air 858D, and that cheap small preheater, and using my nozzle, I could prove to you, that the answer on this video should sounds "yes" instead of "no" :) BUT, on the same time, if I could do this job using your professional Bga Rework Station there, I bet I would kill the gpu and the board with popcorn effect. Because I have NO idea, how to operate it, and how to set correct profile :)
And this is funny - that I'm good with this kind of job, using cheap tools, and you are better than me when you are using only professional tools:)
Al old card like this would have a lot of trapped moisture. This is why it suggest to put in for 12 hours at 125c or 24 at 60c. Thanks for doing the video!!
I love the fact you don't always go the easiest or most convenient route to get the repairs done. By that I mean its not always "Spend money on this machine!", more like "Here's what you can do if this is what you have handy". Keep up the great work!
Great example to why rework stations exist. You don't need to spend a fortune on a top end Chinese hot air rework station to get good results, I have a Jovy RE-8500 and have replaced hundreds of chips with relatively good success (I don't use the software tho, I use a clock, thermocouplers and a temperature gun for the temperature curves). I would recommend baking any chip or board for at least 1-2h @ 100º C in an oven before attempting any reball or chip replacement. I've used this method for many years and have avoided pop-corning IC's since then with great success. Also covering the chip core with a couple of layers of Kapton will save damaging the chip from overheating when resoldering. Thanks for the demostration tho, it shows the limitations of a heat gun. Also reballing manually without a stencil is a labour of love many would shy away from LOL. Keep up the good work Richard!.
Great advice. Saved it for later. But I'm still skeptical on how reliable a manual method like this is compared to purpose built BGA Rework stations with preprogrammed curves like the one in the video.
I wish I watched this video yesterday. Today I tryed to reflow a CPU on a LG TV board since that seemed to be the solution to the problem I had. I used my 858D without nozzle on 450°C for a min I would say, and now the TV is completely dead.. probably overheated the the IC and killed it. If I had watched this video before, i would have put alot more heat into board without even going over the CPU. Instead I just positioned the nozzle over the CPU and dumped all the heat into it. Lession learned!!
Thanks for you great content!!!
Good to see you showing this. I keep telling people this isn't possible using cheap equipment because of the size of the chip and people seem to try it anyway.
Great video mate, keep it up
Cheers mate 🙂
I see you use hot air all the time, manual reballing and no stencil, and you do a fine job at it. altho you said "the size of the chip is a factor".
Thanks Richard. A more powerful preheater with a heat gun stand holder would be OK for chipsets and older GPUs, big BGA chips need a really precise profile.
Hello, always remember to cool down the KADA preheater before turning Power switch to off. Just let the fan work for a 10-15 seconds without active heater. This will prevent heater failure. The new heater element is almost half of a price of KADA preheater. Thank you for a great work!
76 years old, still pulling in us young uns, and still learning, very good lesson, regards. 😎
Nice job, immense effort! You should be looking for an arrow not dot, so the chip is now oriented wrong. Looking forward for a test with bigger preheater. Your videos are one of the most helpful in RUclips repair community!
Mark Walker I did look at the arrow. I carefully pointed it towards the indicated corner on the silk screen (slanted corner). Unfortunately that is not the correct orientation - the arrow should point towards on the three other identical corners and one of the two identical dots should point towards the corner indicated on the silk screen markings!!! And I didn't notice that🥴
@@LearnElectronicsRepair the ATI reading is pointing up from the PCI slot in the start
@@botbeamer Yeah it has been noticed 😉
I think a lot of the interest in doing it with the 858D is genuine. A lot of people use it, and they're curious to see if it is actually capable of doing it.
Having watched quite a raft of your videos now, your "no nonsense" (mate, you can do this yeah) approach is refreshing.
respect for uploading that video, even if it wasnt succesfull
Very good info and demonstration, i had been thinking of building a simple preheater but was not sure if it would work, but this demo and comments made it sure that it will work, although with a bit more work than i initially had thought of.
Do not quit until you show us a working demonstration with the same method but being gentler with heat. You have an almost unlimited amount of tries. Best of luck to you.
I wasn't around for the voting, but was glad to see you use the cheap unit ... because that's what I have.
Very exciting and eductational from start to finish, I really enjoyed every moment of the video, in especially the suspense to see if that thing works at the end.
Really nice video, good and detailed explanations! Love the patience, thats the key to successfully solder parts. Thank you and stay healthy!
Hi there.. before placing the chip . I use 1000 grit water paper with 50% ipa and the a gently rub the chip over the paper.. it flattered the ball a bit ..
That worked for me.
Use u fingers to apply solder paste so it doesn't bubble.. less is better.
Use a heat gun and black and deck In a microscope stand
Modify it to control speed and temperature.
Then u can lower it with good control.. works for me.. I do laptop cpu often
You soldered that GPU on wrong way round, pin1 is indicated by an arrow not the dot. Sorry mate.
Yep u r right confirmation at 25:40.
@alwaysfix You are correct, I did but not make the mistake for the reason you say.
If you look at 0:24:50 before I remove the chip you will see that the arrow is NOT pointing to the corner where the silk screen markings show a diagonal corner!!! There is a dot lined up with this marking, and the arrow is pointing to one of the other 'normal' corners on the silk screened marking
1:09:26 So a this point I make an 'incorrect assumption' that the arrow should point towards the marked corner (diagonal) on the silk screen!
That is how I got it wrong. It's almost like the silk screen markings are wrong, the arrow should not point to the indicated corner, the dot does. This just goes to show I should have double checked the earlier recording to realise it does not go in what I would consider the 'obvious' orientation. 🤔
I never powered it as I was reading shorts - I could remove it again with the BGA machine and refit it if you guys want to see if it still works.
A suggestion. The metal plate socks the heat out of the board and causes longer heating times even on small boards
This was another great video Richard. It didn't turn out like we hoped it would, but that's what this is all about, learning how to do it right, anybody who never made a mistake, never did anything! Do you think using the hot air at 500 degrees C might have been the reason for the popcorning. Considering that the lead free solder melts at ~300 degrees lower than that!
It has been said that making good decisions comes with experience, unfortunately experience comes from making bad decisions. 😞
This was interesting for me, so thanks for this video. I was trained in electronics back in the 1970s, before these miniature surface mount techniques were taught. For me, now as a hobbyist, I am not going to invest a huge amount in tooling that will only get very occasional use, but I do want to learn to work with SMD components and smaller chips. Your video is helpful on a couple of points, since it shows me some of the techniques and tools to use, and also shows the limitations of the equipment I have. I wish more RUclipsrs would show how to do things with minimal equipment, rather than just wheeling in all sorts of expensive tooling and test equipment, which many of us wouldn't have space for, even if we had the budget!
I made a bottom heat plate from one plate element of an old panini press and a PID controller module with a thermocouple attached and an isolated relay module. I originally made it to heat my ferric chloride solution when etching home made circuit boards. It was an easy project and was very satisfying. It has many uses.
31:28 I agree. This is THE BEST solder wick because it is soaked in rosin (flux) and it has very special (different that others) braid/plait/bonds of copper wires (take a look closely, how unique that braid pattern is) This will prevents from separating that tiny wires from the main wick, during pads cleaning, so the single thin copper wires will not split up form the wick and will not catch the pads, when you're moving the solder iron forward. So with this solder wick, the job is very smooth and quick and you will not rip off any pads from the board. p.s. the best size for bga pads is 5-5, or smaller 4-5
Yeah that Solder Wick made all the difference for me. I tried it on recommendation and now I wouldn't use anything else
Great education material when you say what does and work and why.
53:32 yes VGA re work station is necessary for this large chips, otherwise it can’t be done “PROPERLY” thanks for sharing your incites and video on these subject 1:11:05
@LearnElectronicsRepair : I used this video (and some others) to get me started into BGA soldering. I bought the little preheater, a Atten station that Rosman recommended ages ago. My seller here says that is has a better airflow, but I never use it on max. I replaced my RAM on my Mac Mini 2014 with the max memory. I tried it on scrap board first. I had a lot of fun and thank you for showing your method. Picked up a thing or 2 :) I used a DIY suction pen, with a reversed aquarium pump (it's on RUclips, idea is not mine), because tweasers are to cumbersome for me on larger IC's. I recommend dosdude1 for everybody who wants to learn BGA (de)soldering too.
Don't think people are sadistic because they want to see you do it with a cheap station. It's just a lot more interesting!
I just stumblen on this video now - but I was in a broken heatgun situation and I just removed rx580 the other day using the same heat gun type and it took me like 7-8 min, with a preheater that I always use, that heats up to around 200C, itself, not the board. As for the board, depends on which board, obviously. Took me 7-8 min, I managed to remove it only after I basically stuck the gun 1 mm on top of a die. On the bright side, memory modules came right of, they took 5 sec each. But, yes... it's problematic. This is much thinner and lighter pcb than modern 70-layer cards.
Anyway, I did have the stencil and I was actually considering bismuth paste instead of balls, to save on additional 50C. In the end I reballed it with 63/37, but man, it was a struggle. It's a wonder no caps popped. One Hynix module did, they're kinda famous for temperature failures, so I'm happy with only 1GB in trash. TBT, I didn't even think of kapton tape, I never use it for this kind of job.
Heating element "arrived into destination country". I ordered an extra spare, may this adventure never happen again.
I just got to the part where you were checking for left over solder on the chip, I had gotten a tip from autobody repair guys that if you want to feel for flaws in a surface then use a rag under your hand to wipe over the surface. The thinking is that the cloth stops you from feeling the sliding friction and only feel the irregularities, it might work here also.
Even if it wasnt a success, it was a good demonstration - am sure there are a few arduino powered open source heating plates that tinkerers have built being used in the wild, I myself had though of using an old 3D printer bits -and an external mosfet or SSR to control a heat source rather than rely on the onboard mosfet and limited heated bed, with a bit of Gcode to control it - as you know FDM 3d printers heat things up before they start printing so should be ready to go once you set up your heat source and tuned in the thermistor or use the one out of the hotend, should be easily controlled via an interface or even something like octoprint - never got around to it as life got in the way -
Hi Richard
After watching your video and it looks like you have the the BGA/GPU on the wrong way its now facing down the board 1:10:58 but when you started it across the board 25:58with the triangle pointing to U1
@peter lambert
Yes I did but I blame the silk screen markings for being ambiguous if not just plain wrong. Others may disagree (I can take it LOL) but here is my alibi...
If you look at 0:24:50 before I remove the chip you will see that the arrow is NOT pointing to the corner where the silk screen markings show a diagonal corner!!! There is a dot lined up with this marking, and the arrow is pointing to one of the other 'normal' corners on the silk screened marking
1:09:26 So a this point I make an 'incorrect assumption' that the arrow should point towards the marked corner (diagonal) on the silk screen and fit the BGA the wrong way round!
That is how I got it wrong. It's almost like the silk screen markings are wrong, the arrow should not point to the indicated corner as you would expect )or at least as I would expect), the dot does. This just goes to show I should have double checked the earlier recording to realise it does not go in what I would consider the 'obvious' orientation. 🤔
I never powered it up as I was reading shorts - I could remove it again with the BGA machine and refit it if you guys want to see if it still works.
@@LearnElectronicsRepair
Yes I did notice the silk screen is not correct on the board and an easy mistake to make.
Keep up the good work and look forward to more of your videos.
@@lambert0259 Exactly. But I still should have checked before removing it, which way round it goes. So a stupid mistake on my part... but the best part about doing something like that is the fact that you will never do it again 😉
I would have initially attached the temperature probe to the underside of the first board opposite to the chip being removed when not using the board heater.
Thanks for the video - I learnt the hard way that the 858D isn't very good for BGA chips unless you have a preheater. Even on a small phone motherboard, it struggled to remove the chip and looked like it cooked some capacitors trying to do so. Now I have a BST863 station which is miles better but I'd probably still need a preheater for larger BGA chips like VRAM or a GPU. At the moment I just preheat the top and bottom of the board at 200C with my station for 2-3 minutes which seems to work, but it's definitely not reliable; mainly because as soon as you stop putting heat in it'll start to rapidly cool, which a dedicated preheater prevents.
It was a valiant effort 👏🏻
Of course I voted for this, but I wouldn’t want you to waste your time any further with it. Point proved. Even if it was placed back in the incorrect orientation, the popcorning means it’s likely fu*ked.
I cannot believe you placed all those ball’s that’s a job I don’t ever want!
Great video 👍 one of my favourite electronic repair channels
Just with the thermocouple, the temperature is measured at the very tip (the junction). If the tip is not touching the pcb you might not get a correct pcb temperature reading. More just the air temperature above it which cools quickly.
Yeah you are correct, and I have trouble getting the kapton tape to stick down properly to hold the thermocouple in place on the PCB surface.
Great video, very nice by hand BGA reball tips I had tried flux before and like you said used too much haha, need me a hotplate now as I was trying to use a hot air gun which just blew the balls all away ):
You got us some fresh crispy chiplet. Delicious. I have seen someone doing it successfully with a cheap IR room heater and a hot air gun. I think this is the cheapest way possible. He was doing it on an RX 580.
1:02:51 top right TOP RIIIGHT!! seriously, your patience is astounding
Very good material and a lot of work done :) thank you
Many thanks!
A friend of mine did playstations with the same crappy hot air gun for about 6 years before he bought a new one, still has his stopwatch stuck to it with bluetack and 1-2-3-4 paper stickers and timing wrote on ie 10 seconds at number 1, 30 seconds at number 2 or whatever.... i still have it but as i only do dip work the hot air just shrinks heatshrink now....replaced the attached soldering iron element last year pack of 4 for like 7.99
Real ghetto style is using an electric iron, mounted upside down in a vise, as a pre heater ;-)
I have actually used this with great sucess - but for aluminium based LED-boards, not BGAs...
I just bought an 858D. Kind of on the fence but I'll give it a chance.
I was planning for a long time on getting a pre-heater and then using the hot air gun i already have to reflow and reball BGA GPUs. However this video has made me a little more worried on whether or not it is really a worthwhile investment.
I think with a more powerful preheater, at least as large as the PCB, and cheap hot air this is possible. I have one of these preheaters on my shopping list, then I can experiment with both hot air stations on another video
es.aliexpress.com/item/32808680068.html
es.aliexpress.com/item/32319577261.html
or similar
Isn't the delamination caused by moisture in the PCB turning into steam? Or is it actually the copper traces expanding from the heat to the point where they bend the PCB layers apart? I think reducing the moisture content of the PCB would help to reduce the chance of delamination.
answer is yes! But only if the heating element doesnt destroy itself before it even heats up....858D are crap
sympatic explained (and failed) and like your patience with placing the balls. respect sir
Can you put an affiliate link for the soldering wick in the description? So we can support you when buying things.
Best wishes
I'm just trying to set up affiliate accounts now. I've go Amazon UK, EU and US ready. I'm having a problem setting up AliExpress Affiliate account and chatting with them. Banggood I'll move on to later this week. Any other s i should try, let me know. Give me some days to get everything sorted and it will be good to go 🙂
I've been struggling with reballing an intel CPU for a couple of days, thanks for the tips. I've almost had it 3 times and thought everything had reflowed but it turned out many balls were still loose. Also tried to help with hot air but flowrate was too high. learned the hard way that everything has to be sticky free exept the CPU or the works get gummed up Once I figure this out i'll be a reballing machine. do you think the thermal cycling of the CPU to 200C (to melt lead solder balls) will cause damage?
thank you Richard for the video, could you do the same video but using your expensive rework station that would be very interesting to see.
I have shown it working on a few previous videos, but yes I will be doing so again in future.
You can get it done with a pre-heater being a must (as noted) and you want to use directional and heat focus cones. This allows you to quite literally use an 858D as a rework machine...albeit one that is still garbage.
The key is focusing the heat and gradually allying it. Without the focus cones the heat just blows over the board/chip and goes away, which then necessitates more heat and that causes damage.
Old Pace kits used to come with focus cones and I believe JBC still sells them. However, you'll still burn your 858D out in the course of a few reworks so you're better off just saving and getting a proper rework machine even if it's the lowest end. The worst actual rework machine is 100x better than an 858, as everyone already knows.
But it can be done. Easily? No. Yet, anything up to about a Switch board can be done with a heater and 858D.
the reason we are interested in you doing it with a cheap hot air station etc, isnt to make life difficult for you. its because most of us are hobbyist who only have a £50 hot air station. myself i have the yihua 992d rework station to repair everything. so it shows us things can be done with cheaper tools. as most of us cannot afford or can ever warrant spending hundreds on one tool. to repair things as a hobby or for family and friends when we do not get any money for what we do
Hello, what is the temperature that you set on the preaheter plate?
Silicon Matt is a killer app
Use 5USD 500W halogen Projector lamp, mask unneeded area with aluminium tape.
too much power. i was using 200W
A valiant effort, well done. Something odd though, you may have been working on two different red graphics boards (which would explain this) but at 25:40 and 1:12:45 the GPU appears to have changed orientation. I am curious as to whether you have ever tried those 'cheapy' infrared rework stations (those which include the pre-heater), no disrespect of course to your professional machine.
@Mr Guru Thanks for that. I bought one with a large backheater plate many years ago for about £150 (which included a soldering iron) and used it then for many small ICs, but never a large BGA. No proper gradient control of course, did burn PCBs if not watched carefully.
ralph J You are correct, I was confused by the silk screen markings on the Red PCB
If you look at 0:24:50 before I remove the chip you will see that the arrow is NOT pointing to the corner where the silk screen markings show a diagonal corner!!! There is a dot lined up with this marking, and the arrow is pointing to one of the other 'normal' corners on the silk screened marking
1:09:26 So a this point I make an 'incorrect assumption' that the arrow should point towards the marked corner (diagonal) on the silk screen!
That is how I got it wrong. It's almost like the silk screen markings are wrong, the arrow does not point to the 'indicated' corner, the dot does. This just goes to show I should have double checked the earlier recording to realise it does not go in what I would consider the 'obvious' orientation. 🤔
I never powered it as I was reading shorts - I could remove it again with the BGA machine and refit it if you guys want to see if it still works.
@@LearnElectronicsRepair Over to you. Not sure if you will get away with it because of the bulge and all the previous heating, but you have experience in these matters.
@Mr Guru Yeah I second that. IMHO the preheater should be larger than the PCB you are working on. 6-8 inch is good for most GPUs. If you regularly work on ATX motherboards for example ones with heavy ground and power planes such as gaming motherboards you should use a preheater larger than an ATX motherboard.
I think it's because people are interested in how to do something like this as cheaply as possible. Maybe they are just getting started or want a one time repair and never do it again.
Excellent! Thank you to share mistakes 😊
nice sir it is very difficult job but i try it
Really awesome video Richard. This surely was a lot of work and took some GPU´s to be sacrifced, but i got to say i am amazed, how well the Hot Air station performed, as soon as there was a preheater.
I am currently myself in the Market for a Preheater around 100€ and wanted to ask if you have any experience/recomendation with that ? I would need it mostly for Memory Replacment on GPU´s and PCH´s from mainboards!
Thank you very much Richard!
I would suggest something larger than I used (at least the 6-8 inch size) for GPUs and preferably something larger than the largest PCB you ever work on, which is probably an ATX motherboard. I'm going to get one of the T-8280 when I get chance, but they are little outside your budget.
www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002007158408.html
I never used one though so I don't know how good they are. I have the automatic BGA rework station anyway but it can be a pain in the ass if you get the profile wrong, and sometimes i just like to play with new stuff 😉
Forget all that crap people, I have had pretty good success from baking video cards in the oven to repair them, mostly Invidia crap that i will never buy again.
I think you are on the wrong channel my friend...
@@LearnElectronicsRepair No, I really enjoy your videos and I try repairing things myself, But in a situation like re balling a processor without the correct tools? nothing but a waste of time.
Great content I watch with the sound off "yeah"
Hello Richard,
I watched your video here with interest as I'm facing replacing a 357ball BGA on a Tektronix oscilloscope.
I must say, I was hoping for a better outcome :-) as I have a basic IR rework station and an 878AD hot air station.
Do you think that 'baking' / heat soaking the board in an oven for an hour or so before performing the BGA removal would have helped?
Thank you so much.
Great video Richard. I.love your content. I would like to ask, can you reball an IC with only solder paste, flux and solder iron without stencil? Kind regards
You need a solder paste stencil which is not the same thing as a reballing stencil, but yes it can be done that way. Personally though I always used solder balls so could not advise on the process.
I believe that 858D is only rated 750 Watts, your right, the 858D alone won't' be enough but worth trying.:). Btw, to remove the old solder off, would it be alright to use a low melt solder such as
( Brand: Fast Chip) to help eliminate adding any extra heat to the board?
Is there any BGA station for the DIY guy you would recomend on aliexpress?
great video as are most of your vid's is this in real time or did you edit the video to cut the time of the vid down
Normally they are real time. However with this one I had to edit the heating sequences because they were just taking too long, even speeded up on video.
Haha!! that’s awesome Richard nice work ha ha too funny!! Ya definitely deserve a cookie for that one 🍪
My favourite channel
Manually placing the solder balls, is it possible/better to stick them to the PCB rather than on the chip?
there is another guy on youtube who sticks the balls to the board instead. he says less stress on the chip (although more on the board)
I hope you are using an extractor. The fumes are not good for you.
Also ir heater
Hey, great video. Thanks a lot :) What about reflowing? Could you reflow a BGA with a cheap hot air station?
I try to buy same heat gun..but it good or not?
What brand kapton tape is it and where you get it from in uk I presume ?
really interesting video 👍
Incan see at 1:11:09 BGA chip is overheated and it is a very sensitive in older graphics cards. The board of older graphics card is thin and easy to be damage with heat. But good try.
Hi, where can I get Soder Wick, looked on Ali Express, they seem to do solder wick. My Uncle said Soder wick is better, he used to do re work at Plessey
Have you done one with your machine successfully?
Have a aoyue 968a+ and trying to remove bga chip and we'll quad no shown lead chips and I ramp it up to 480 degree Celsius and it still won't rise up, luck it was on a old board that I can practice on, do tell me how can I increase my work speed and how to remove said chip type for all other device easily remove except this one
actually i got something ever cheaper, the txinlei 8858(got it to learn and practice), it does the job for small basic stuff, but so far i use it mainly for pulling stuff off of old circuit boards from stuff i never planned to try to repair(even for through hole, it's way faster than using an iron and a pump!! XD) , so i wanted to see what was possible with the cheapest you had! XD i plan on getting a good one at some point, specially for reballing and suff like that But i like to recycle and learn how to make stuff myself, and one thing i plan to try, is reuse the hot plate from an old coffee machine to help with some smd stuff!!
not strong enough, try old toaster oven, should be easy to convert, it already has temp control and 1000W+
@@Roman00744 Yeah I thought of using our toaster oven, but the wife vetoed the idea!!
@@Roman00744 Ahh thanks for the info, spares me from wasting time!! XD already have a toaster oven with a broken thermostat button that i planned on converting at some point too, but i always tend to push projects like that until i ready need them for something... XD
Always dowdeling.
Next Use Clothes Iron underneath Board...lol
thank you for your Video. i made also cpu reball without rework station. Du you think it works? you can show it on my chanel wat ist your opinion
perfect
Heya, to bad that the gpu start bobbeling other wish maybe it would be doable
58:46 sound gone while watching on roku but just fine on pc. wut da
I love the ghetto version. Use an expired flux. No need to get a fume extractor, just blow it away with your mouth XD
Nice try. But you do not noticed you turned chip in wrong direction before soldering it back ;-)
@Yama 007 You are correct, I did but not make the mistake for the reason you say.
If you look at 0:24:50 before I remove the chip you will see that the arrow is NOT pointing to the corner where the silk screen markings show a diagonal corner!!! There is a dot lined up with this marking, and the arrow is pointing to one of the other 'normal' corners on the silk screened marking
1:09:26 So a this point I make an 'incorrect assumption' that the arrow should point towards the marked corner (diagonal) on the silk screen!
That is how I got it wrong. It's almost like the silk screen markings are wrong, the arrow should not point to the indicated corner, the dot does. This just goes to show I should have double checked the earlier recording to realise it does not go in what I would consider the 'obvious' orientation. 🤔
I never powered it as I was reading shorts - I could remove it again with the BGA machine and refit it if you guys want to see if it still works.
@@LearnElectronicsRepair Actually i was watching ATI logo before and then. Easy to remember ;-) But sure i would like to know if reball fixed it.
It is recommended to heat BGA in oven at low temperature (80-100c) for quite a few hours to remove all moisture from the chip before fitting, that will help stop the popcorning of the substrate. I have read this from BGA manufacturer datasheets. They don't mention the popcorning but simply state that the moisture needs to be removed before soldering.
58:39 my struggle in life
No. There, I saved you one hour of your life. 😂
Too late for that LOL 😆
GURU!
would you suppose when working with low power equipment to take more or less time than powerful automated station profile? but if you still think 'not enough heat' is the problem im sure even cheaper option of a heat gun can sort that real quick, keke
help urself and buy a fume extractor lel
Processo fail two bolhas