The thing is : we DON'T want major points boost. We DON'T want to turn into a horde army. We just want to be good and powerful, not an absolutely trash army which winrate varies between 28 to 32%. Give us real rules, real statlines, that's what we want, not to have to buy 30% more models to be viable. People who started a Leagues of Votann army never wanted to play a horde in the first place.
Elite Xenos is a very limited field on 40k. With Orks being a hoard army and Nids, hoards being viable for Necrons, Xenos hoards are well covered. With Votann troops being cloned specifically for that task and them having access to the peak of humanity's technology, it's entirely consistent with the setting for them to be close to Marines in their level of effectiveness. I think Jeedubs have over reacted to the Pay to Win allegations aimed at Votann's release and continuing down this road would be a big mistake and trow away an opportunity to give Xenos players broader options.
@@cbpoppet1288it makes me laugh when people say “Votann were never meant to be elite!” When they first incepted as an elite army both mechanically and lore wise. I don’t need them to be on the same level as marines but they’re dwarves. They’re meant to have quality on their side, not quantity.
@@valaquenta220 With all due respect, I think you need to re-read my comment. I'm saying Xenos hoards are covered and Votann SHOULD be elite. Having evolved in the most hostile part of the galaxy, being cloned to be soldiers and having the best tech humanity ever had makes them elite. At worst Votann should be a gnat's wing from equalling marines.
My gut feeling is that we're going to be better next month, but there's so much work to do that it's going to take more than one errata AND a revamped codex before we're fixed. Like, our winrate could be upped towards something like 45% in a year or so, but for us to be fun again means all of our rules would need to be changed.
Just can’t reasonably be fixed with points… when you go from wounding on 4s to hit, to hitting on 4s, and you lose more defense than most armies dropped in AP… well they should have known that the 9th to 10th discount in points had to be (actually, no joke) over 50%
If GW thinks a point change will fix this issue, consider this We lost: -The number of JT's we can get. -Our access to assigning JT's. -The efficacy of JT's. They just aren't nearly as good. -Void armour; the thing that made us durable. -Beamers that let us cage up and at least try to control enemy model placement. -Magna rail rules -And to top it off, they hit us with a 4+ BS I'm not saying we need all those rules, but they took ALL of them away. At this point it doesn't even feel like the same army.
Also, as a Kronus Hegemony player. I was playing a hybrid Melee army. Hearthkyn & Pioneers lost over half of their attacks. Cause we have no melee army rules anymore AND went down to 1 attack per kin. Like a difference between 34~ attacks to like 11. I have no way to play the way I built my army for lol.
This came at the perfect time, currently painting up some more votann! No matter their strength I’ll love them all the same. (Though it would be nice to win every now and then)
I think LoV is such a cool faction with a great aesthetic. I hope they can do more to expand the range over time and make them more viable to those who invested in them.
Well. One of the problems I have with 10th is the "Every Unit now has a Job" idea with Uthar now being worse than the standard Khal. Wish they did the Horus Heresy Route where a Named Character/ Special Character had all the abilities of their generic equivalent PLUS custom stuff at the cost of points and unchangeable gear.
That’s how it should be in most cases. There’s no reason why a generic Kahl is better at assessing enemies to the point that he gives lethal hits where Uthar can’t. Because Uthar is expressly the best Kahl we know of, and being a Kahl is all about assessing enemies.
Agreed! Its the same problem for me looking at normal Captains and Named Captains for Space Marines. There is no reason any Captain should not have Rites of Battle. But for some reason every named one forgets it! Again. They should have the same abilities PLUS then one or two that makes them each different. But that is just me@@reginlief1
Yes, but that only works, if people are still willing to buy them. Currently, you have the collectors who do not care about model price and would have bought them anyway. And then you have the people who buy them to play armies, and they can by cheap armies from ebay, because nobody want to play a army that can not win. They will not buy new models.
The Leagues are maximalist space dwarfs who are said to train to the levels of elite warriors of other species, who have superior DAOT tech, cybernetics as standard, are genetically engineered and who believe they have to do everything "properly". They should not be what are pretty much uparmoured Guardsmen, and they should not be a horde army. More like Space Marine scouts or Tempestus Scions, a slow and tough semi-elite army who is devastating at short range and durable enough to actually get there (they can't do either at the moment). It would fit their lore and it would give them a relatively unique play style. Decreasing their points so you just fit in more models wouldn't be a solution, its avoiding addressing the issue properly.
As someone playing too many games of Votann in 10th this is a fairly accurate tier list. Uthar, Grimnyr, Warriors, and Beserks are unusable. The Beserks and Warriors being bad means Sagitaur isnt worth the investment. Champion needs more attacks to make T1 and the Iron Master is an OK character, but not what it was in 9th. Hearthguard are by far our best unit, and Thunderkyn and Fortress are good by comparison to our own data sheets, but Hekaton is probably over costed in its current form.
One way I think they could help expand the Votann range would be to allow adding the Necromunda Ironhead Squat Prospectors as "Local Contractors". Make them cheaper cultist/scout kind of units with some restrictions on the number you can have or how many points you can take. (Including their forge world units and maybe am-bots would be cool as well)
You get a like just for those opening puns Edit: Damn, Squats only have 12 units? That's terrible! GW really need to release the other 3/4's of their army.
I mean they did only come out as a Faction at the very tail end of 9th edition... it wouldn't make any sense for them to have 40 different units at this point like a lot of other factions do. GW will release some new units with their codex (probably 3-4 units) so they have a few more options and utility than they currently have
I’m primarily a necron player but I love the leagues of votann and I’ll definitely start collecting them once they get more models as in lore I love them and I hope we see more squat releases
Honestly, I like the idea of a "just the facts, ma'am" slimmed down army. I don't know a lot about 40k, so maybe my take is really bad, but I feel this way in other games and MMOs and stuff. I like things that are straightforward and "just work". As I understand it, Imperial Knights have like 3 kits (big, medium, and little knights), that can be made into something like 7 overall units (a couple for the big one, a couple for the medium one, and two configurations for the little ones) and that's it...yet they're pretty consistently a "decent" army. Gray Knights, correct me if I'm wrong, basically have three main types of units - I saw AT's video on their battle box and how it was a great deal even without a huge discount because all three types are what you need for the bulk of your army, so having two or three of those boxes is all going to still be useful to you as a player. And while he rates them low-ish tier and as a high skill required to do well army, they seem to be functional with a pretty think list of unit types. So maybe I'm completely wrong on this, but I like having a few things so there's less to wrap my smooth brain around and that just work. :) I absolutely think it's great that there are some factions with dozens or hundreds of units...but to me as someone brand new, that's pretty overwhelming. I have the Rookie starter set with Marines and Necrons, and looking at the catalogue of Marine units if I was going to build an army is...well, downright daunting! On the other hand, I look at that Imperial Knights box set and AT's video saying "buy two of these and you essentially have your army", and that sounds kinda good by comparison. :D I love dwarves, though, in basically all media and games. And Votann are, aside from maybe Tau, one of the few "oh, this empire isn't absolute cancer to all life in the universe" societies in the 40k universe. : ) "Let's go mining and drinking then shoot some Orcs in the face" seems one of the few non-fascistic death cult societies in the game. :D
the Votann got me interested in Wh40k again after years and years of abscence, but their sorry state led me to not buying any of their models yet, instead I got Morvenn Vahl of the Sororitas, had a lot of fun painting her. might be looking into them instead of the votann for now in terms of starting an army
I know people don’t want hordes, but I would like the option to take hearthkin warriors in 20s again. Let’s me choose to get more out of a leader if I wanted
I would have put Beserks in tier 4, because with current rules, you will only get them into close combat, if the opponent makes a mistake. They do not have the speed to catch up, if the opponent just walks backwards while firing. The only way to get them close, is to use transport. But you need the transport for other units. And even if you do that, the opponent still get a full round of shooting and can move out of charge range. Current Votann is just Death guard with worse weapons and model stats. But with a slightly better army rule, that will give them better stat, but still worse than the basic death guard for the same price. And lowering the price will not help the army. It just means you need all the models, to reach 2000 points, including the bad ones. You you will still be unable to score points unless the opponent play dumb.
Berserks are the distraction Carnifex. The Opponent either needs to shoot the unit to death or risk having them slam into a unit you're trying to bring up to contest the objectives and once in melee the Berserks WILL Drag something down with them even if you murder the entire unit. I've had Daemon princes of Khorne try to shift them and just get pulled down with them.
Votann need: Jump Infantry or similar Beserker Leader Dedicated "Tank" Dreadnought/Carnafex unit They need a sats boost, more accurate shooting & melee. Dwarves are always seen as major tanky or glass cannon melee. We got garbage 😂
They did votann so dirty. But hey when they change the points to dirt cheap to match the dogshit datasheets you can enjoy buying more models I guess…. Nevermind that sucks too
I'd go almost full MEQ with them. Up them to two wounds each, up to 3 on the berserks and their not-terminators (4 with the add on thing that boosts wounds). Then rebalance their weapons from there.
Votann need stat boosts, not point changes. The Entire setup seems to be elite midrange shooting and counter-charging but they took away most of the teeth from the shooting aspect. Fundamentally they need to bring back baseline BS 3+
At the very least the squats need their ballistics skills improved across the board to be playable I think. Without a judgement token their shooting is almost entirely hitting on 4s and 5s (not to mention at 18-24” range and 1-2 attack weapons on high costed models) making it super unreliable to even get chip damage in anywhere. With a judgement token they still shoot worse than unbuffed space marines.
I want tougher units that deal more damage, not to have to pay ebay scalpers and pray GW puts the few good units back in stock, or hordes of hearthkyn because we are supposed to be a horde army now. I love the kin and they will always be my main army but points changes will not fix the fundamental issues with the current army rules.
Sagitaur is Tier 1 IMHO, the missiles and the guns allow it to roam around and do some decent damage - it can take out elites and poke enemy vehicles and transports quite nicely and with a cheap 5 man inside to get out and sticky or just screen it - they're quite a cheap mobile gun boat. Everything else - yeah I can agree with. The frustrating part is our Tier 1 is a lot of other armies Tier 2-3.
The issue is them and the Land Fortress are so costly you might at best bring 3 of them, and that's a very small amount for enemies to focus fire on. The Low model count in your infantry units also means Anti tank weapons are also pretty effective at smashing infantry units.
My thing with the sagitaur is its dollar cost permodel, do i want a bunch of (frankly) epensive models that are at the end of the day LIGHT armor or do i want my chonkaton fortresss and terminators for mobility. On paper sagitaur isnt bad and works perfect for what your using but theres just frankly better armies for dealing with mobile light armor. Like "oh your guard comes out the taur and you got sticky, welp i just moved a genestealer unit over there through a strat and just demo charged wverything over there to death" hell even against IG cadians in a chimera is kinda better then a sagitaur and 5 hearthguard. And im personally a sagitaur fan too and i know the limits on them currently.
Thunderkyn > hekachonk by a mile. Thunderkyn come in from reserves and pretty much destroy whatever they're targeting. Hekachonk, in cover or not, goes down fast to anti-tank. As the only 'threat' tank on the table, it's the target that makes sense. Re-roll to wound is nice, but the caveat that it has to be a unit that the hekachonk hits is annoying.
I hate how Votann went from being made better when notable enemy threats incur JTs to instead being dependent on JTs just to reclaim the BS/WS they used to have. If they think points cuts and just making us field more models is the way, we may as well play Tau.
Great example of how some designers decide to balance their games by simply flipping a faction by nerfing everything previously good and buffing everything that wasn't. Almost unbelievable how the Hearthguard and Thunderkyn in particular have gone from some of the most useless pieces in the game, to be near auto-included when playing the faction.
I’ll second everyone who said that dropping the points costs isn’t the answer. Same goes for Death Guard, Admech and Sisters. Making vehicles so much tougher and not adjusting the power of the anti-tank weapons available to the infantry has very nearly broken the game. Votann is at the bottom because they can’t take Knights to bolster their lists like the other bottom dwellers or run a Daemon Primarch and generic chaos armour.
I’m completely done with votann at the moment which sucks because I had bought the starter box. 80% of the index is ass and the other 20% is still just so bad
9:50 you cannot target models inside the character unit until the Bodyguard unit is dead. The core rules leqves no choice, so the Roboter1are only ablative wounds for the iron master himself. (If i recall correctly, but we had a discussion about that in our local group recently)
I really dislike how they made a new faction, buffed it to the sky to sell good and then immediately nerfed it back into the ground. I don't need them to be amazing, I just want them to be viable.
I always find it weird these guys exist in 40K. For a space fantasy setting it makes sense to include space gnomes though in comparison to the power struggle from other races and chaos, they seem to be a niche addition to me with neat models
Why? You had perfect explanation for why they where there in the lore. Humans made to work in high gravity environment. They make much more sense, than the ogryn or rattlings. They make more sense than the eldar. Why would the old ones, who probably looked like lizards or toads, make a humanoid race to be their psykers? And this would be 60 millions years before the first human, so they did not have us to copy and make "better". Squats where explained, GW just did not like them, for reason they did not explain. And we know they did not explain, because the "official" reason, was 3 different ones that did not match each other. My guess, people at GW just hate cultures like dwarfs.
@@Dorsidwarf Nothing at all like I said, it makes sense for them to exist. I just find it's mostly the lore from what I see: The eldar now with split factions, were a once great empire that collapsed and caused the birth of slaanesh The orks that are a comic relief are an almost invincible force to other parts of the galaxy. The votanns seem to be almost like space pirates that don't care about terra which they came from and go out to gather anything valuable to them. In comparison the votanns don't seem to be affecting the lore majorly in any way which is also fine, not everything needs to be a grand spectacle, though they remind me a lot about the other games GW has like Necromunda with it's setting being in the hive worlds
@@PeterSnores The reason why Votann does not affect the current lore much, is because they did not want to have to rewrite all the old lore they had already made. And they did not want to give us back the Squats, because then they would have to admit that Squating them was a mistake. A corporation never admit they made a mistake, because that could lead to lawsuits. They could have just given us back the Squats, say the reason for why we had not heard from them the last 500 years was that they where trapped in a warp storm, but as I said, they do not want to admit to a mistake. So, instead they where a break of colony of humanity in the 20K who had been hiding in the galaxy core. And since we have no clear lore from before the Emperor started his primarch program, that means we would have no lore about them.
It's kind of amazing how the Kahl is effectively top of list, but you give him a name, and he's suddenly the absolute bottom. Also odd how this list, compared to the 9th one, reorganizes. Things that might've bottomed that list score a lot higher here, and vice versa. As an aside, I'm wondering how fair it was to score the Betserks so low? I'm nor saying that they are better, but maybe don't most factions' melee options sort if suck, this edition? It seems plenty of orher armies' dedicated assault troops likewise took ugly nerfs, of sorts, or with various rules changes, just aren't as effective. No disrespect; just babbling a thought.
Beserk should, as far as I can tell, be even lower. Remember, they have speed 5. They can not be teleported in, Sagitaur only carry 6 models (and beserk comes in groups of 5 or 10) and they have no leaders that can join them. So either, you star on your side of the map, they move and sprint every turn, and will be just in charge range, when the last model gets shoot down. (assuming the opponent did not move 6 back while continue shooting) Or you put them in a sagitaur. You move them into charge range, turn one, then they all gets shoot down in one turn, because 5 models with no defense does not survive 1 turn shooting. Or you could use your Heakaton to move them. In that case, you will get 10 models into charge rang, and they will survive to charge next turn. But only because your opponent will target the Heakaton, that you sacrificed to get them into melle with 1 unit. The Heakaton that cost the same as the unit, but is much more valuable. And the beserkers will still be killed in 1 turn, after they have killed that one unit, assuming they even win. Unless you play on a map totally covered in ruins, they are basically just easy victory points for your opponent if he get the right goal.
It's because Berserks are basically 9th edition Wulfen but used defensively. Park them on an objective and the opponent either needs to waste a turn shooting them or they cause melee problems. They 100% punch up for their points value and a screen of them with Hearthguard on a point is probably the best situation a Votann player can have.
No sure how dumb you gotta be to take epic metal beards away from dwarfs , when I heard squats were coming I was literally prepared to buy every kit multiple times and make a division of them......then I saw them and there dumb lore and put my money back in my wallet. Swing and a miss epic miss. GW would of made so much more money if they made them right.
A, but Tau do? Or custodies? Dont give me that "does not fit in the 40k" bullshit. You just do not like them, because in a short periode in 9th, they where able to counter your rule exploiting army, and you are not willing to forgive them for that.
Hater posts on the internet. How novel. Basically your “ argument” amounts to:”Me no like faction, me no want it to exist. Rant over, me has to put more crayon up nose!” Well done!
The thing is : we DON'T want major points boost. We DON'T want to turn into a horde army. We just want to be good and powerful, not an absolutely trash army which winrate varies between 28 to 32%.
Give us real rules, real statlines, that's what we want, not to have to buy 30% more models to be viable.
People who started a Leagues of Votann army never wanted to play a horde in the first place.
Elite Xenos is a very limited field on 40k. With Orks being a hoard army and Nids, hoards being viable for Necrons, Xenos hoards are well covered. With Votann troops being cloned specifically for that task and them having access to the peak of humanity's technology, it's entirely consistent with the setting for them to be close to Marines in their level of effectiveness.
I think Jeedubs have over reacted to the Pay to Win allegations aimed at Votann's release and continuing down this road would be a big mistake and trow away an opportunity to give Xenos players broader options.
There it is. Very very few Vita'n players would actually be happy about becoming a horde army in the hope that we become viable.
@@cbpoppet1288it makes me laugh when people say “Votann were never meant to be elite!” When they first incepted as an elite army both mechanically and lore wise.
I don’t need them to be on the same level as marines but they’re dwarves. They’re meant to have quality on their side, not quantity.
@@valaquenta220 With all due respect, I think you need to re-read my comment. I'm saying Xenos hoards are covered and Votann SHOULD be elite. Having evolved in the most hostile part of the galaxy, being cloned to be soldiers and having the best tech humanity ever had makes them elite. At worst Votann should be a gnat's wing from equalling marines.
can't agree more with you
Votann as a faction is the Hearthguard datasheet in a trenchcoat right now, it's a pretty sad state of affairs and hopefully gets fixed next month!
My gut feeling is that we're going to be better next month, but there's so much work to do that it's going to take more than one errata AND a revamped codex before we're fixed. Like, our winrate could be upped towards something like 45% in a year or so, but for us to be fun again means all of our rules would need to be changed.
I thought we’d get more varying models too. It’s just midgets and moon bikes.
Would have thought we would see more autonomous machines or something
Just can’t reasonably be fixed with points… when you go from wounding on 4s to hit, to hitting on 4s, and you lose more defense than most armies dropped in AP… well they should have known that the 9th to 10th discount in points had to be (actually, no joke) over 50%
I'm really disappointed this wasn't just a 5 minute video where every datasheet is in Tier 4 and there is no Tier 1-3
If GW thinks a point change will fix this issue, consider this
We lost:
-The number of JT's we can get.
-Our access to assigning JT's.
-The efficacy of JT's. They just aren't nearly as good.
-Void armour; the thing that made us durable.
-Beamers that let us cage up and at least try to control enemy model placement.
-Magna rail rules
-And to top it off, they hit us with a 4+ BS
I'm not saying we need all those rules, but they took ALL of them away. At this point it doesn't even feel like the same army.
Also, as a Kronus Hegemony player. I was playing a hybrid Melee army. Hearthkyn & Pioneers lost over half of their attacks. Cause we have no melee army rules anymore AND went down to 1 attack per kin. Like a difference between 34~ attacks to like 11. I have no way to play the way I built my army for lol.
Also our weapon range, especially for special weapons got shafted, we are so slow and without the chance to fire back
Add "lost sources of re-rolls" (which earlier where rather plentiful) to the list.
We also lost steady advance meaning we can get hit hard by thing slike barbgaunts or Custodes tanglefoot grenades
This is why my friends let me play 9th e
This came at the perfect time, currently painting up some more votann! No matter their strength I’ll love them all the same. (Though it would be nice to win every now and then)
Same here😅
Whoever made the LoV Index should never work in game design ever again.
I think LoV is such a cool faction with a great aesthetic. I hope they can do more to expand the range over time and make them more viable to those who invested in them.
Well. One of the problems I have with 10th is the "Every Unit now has a Job" idea with Uthar now being worse than the standard Khal. Wish they did the Horus Heresy Route where a Named Character/ Special Character had all the abilities of their generic equivalent PLUS custom stuff at the cost of points and unchangeable gear.
That’s how it should be in most cases. There’s no reason why a generic Kahl is better at assessing enemies to the point that he gives lethal hits where Uthar can’t. Because Uthar is expressly the best Kahl we know of, and being a Kahl is all about assessing enemies.
Thats basically how it was in 9th - Uthar was a better Kahl locked to a faction.
GW loves fixing what ain't broke.
Agreed! Its the same problem for me looking at normal Captains and Named Captains for Space Marines. There is no reason any Captain should not have Rites of Battle. But for some reason every named one forgets it! Again. They should have the same abilities PLUS then one or two that makes them each different. But that is just me@@reginlief1
To those of you still rocking the leagues in competitive play even after all this, We Salute You
GW logic:
>create overpowered army
>take away (nearly) all rules
>reduce points to horde army
>stonks
Yes, but that only works, if people are still willing to buy them.
Currently, you have the collectors who do not care about model price and would have bought them anyway.
And then you have the people who buy them to play armies, and they can by cheap armies from ebay, because nobody want to play a army that can not win. They will not buy new models.
I just started buying the kits from Russian recasters instead of GW if they are gonna fuck me over ill fuck them over
The Leagues are maximalist space dwarfs who are said to train to the levels of elite warriors of other species, who have superior DAOT tech, cybernetics as standard, are genetically engineered and who believe they have to do everything "properly".
They should not be what are pretty much uparmoured Guardsmen, and they should not be a horde army. More like Space Marine scouts or Tempestus Scions, a slow and tough semi-elite army who is devastating at short range and durable enough to actually get there (they can't do either at the moment). It would fit their lore and it would give them a relatively unique play style. Decreasing their points so you just fit in more models wouldn't be a solution, its avoiding addressing the issue properly.
As someone playing too many games of Votann in 10th this is a fairly accurate tier list. Uthar, Grimnyr, Warriors, and Beserks are unusable. The Beserks and Warriors being bad means Sagitaur isnt worth the investment. Champion needs more attacks to make T1 and the Iron Master is an OK character, but not what it was in 9th.
Hearthguard are by far our best unit, and Thunderkyn and Fortress are good by comparison to our own data sheets, but Hekaton is probably over costed in its current form.
One way I think they could help expand the Votann range would be to allow adding the Necromunda Ironhead Squat Prospectors as "Local Contractors". Make them cheaper cultist/scout kind of units with some restrictions on the number you can have or how many points you can take.
(Including their forge world units and maybe am-bots would be cool as well)
You get a like just for those opening puns
Edit: Damn, Squats only have 12 units? That's terrible! GW really need to release the other 3/4's of their army.
I mean they did only come out as a Faction at the very tail end of 9th edition... it wouldn't make any sense for them to have 40 different units at this point like a lot of other factions do. GW will release some new units with their codex (probably 3-4 units) so they have a few more options and utility than they currently have
Harlequins have 8 units, 4 of which are characters (and bot... but it seems like they are no longer their own faction
I’m primarily a necron player but I love the leagues of votann and I’ll definitely start collecting them once they get more models as in lore I love them and I hope we see more squat releases
Honestly, I like the idea of a "just the facts, ma'am" slimmed down army. I don't know a lot about 40k, so maybe my take is really bad, but I feel this way in other games and MMOs and stuff. I like things that are straightforward and "just work". As I understand it, Imperial Knights have like 3 kits (big, medium, and little knights), that can be made into something like 7 overall units (a couple for the big one, a couple for the medium one, and two configurations for the little ones) and that's it...yet they're pretty consistently a "decent" army.
Gray Knights, correct me if I'm wrong, basically have three main types of units - I saw AT's video on their battle box and how it was a great deal even without a huge discount because all three types are what you need for the bulk of your army, so having two or three of those boxes is all going to still be useful to you as a player. And while he rates them low-ish tier and as a high skill required to do well army, they seem to be functional with a pretty think list of unit types.
So maybe I'm completely wrong on this, but I like having a few things so there's less to wrap my smooth brain around and that just work. :) I absolutely think it's great that there are some factions with dozens or hundreds of units...but to me as someone brand new, that's pretty overwhelming. I have the Rookie starter set with Marines and Necrons, and looking at the catalogue of Marine units if I was going to build an army is...well, downright daunting!
On the other hand, I look at that Imperial Knights box set and AT's video saying "buy two of these and you essentially have your army", and that sounds kinda good by comparison. :D
I love dwarves, though, in basically all media and games. And Votann are, aside from maybe Tau, one of the few "oh, this empire isn't absolute cancer to all life in the universe" societies in the 40k universe. : ) "Let's go mining and drinking then shoot some Orcs in the face" seems one of the few non-fascistic death cult societies in the game. :D
“and which ones are coming up short”
Agh, now this is ah’ grudgin
the Votann got me interested in Wh40k again after years and years of abscence, but their sorry state led me to not buying any of their models yet, instead I got Morvenn Vahl of the Sororitas, had a lot of fun painting her. might be looking into them instead of the votann for now in terms of starting an army
Sororitas are peak aesthetician. Even as a dedicated Chaos player, I might have to concede that the sisters have the coolest visuals in the game.
I know people don’t want hordes, but I would like the option to take hearthkin warriors in 20s again. Let’s me choose to get more out of a leader if I wanted
That still doesn't have to be hordes just more customization for us
Rock and stone to the bone BAY - BEE
I want my small, hard, elite space dwarfs army to be viable. I already play Guard as a horde army, don't need another one.
I would have put Beserks in tier 4, because with current rules, you will only get them into close combat, if the opponent makes a mistake.
They do not have the speed to catch up, if the opponent just walks backwards while firing.
The only way to get them close, is to use transport.
But you need the transport for other units.
And even if you do that, the opponent still get a full round of shooting and can move out of charge range.
Current Votann is just Death guard with worse weapons and model stats. But with a slightly better army rule, that will give them better stat, but still worse than the basic death guard for the same price.
And lowering the price will not help the army. It just means you need all the models, to reach 2000 points, including the bad ones.
You you will still be unable to score points unless the opponent play dumb.
Berserks are the distraction Carnifex. The Opponent either needs to shoot the unit to death or risk having them slam into a unit you're trying to bring up to contest the objectives and once in melee the Berserks WILL Drag something down with them even if you murder the entire unit. I've had Daemon princes of Khorne try to shift them and just get pulled down with them.
Reducing standard BS to 4+ was the start of the rot to the poor Votann
Reducing ws as well, did not help. Only reason why we do not notice it, is because most models gets killed before they get into close combat.
I've just started building my Votann army. So very timely indeed. :)
Title should be: who sits in front of the ‘struglebus’.
Spacewolves next please
Then Deathwatch as well 😢
love your opening moderation! Also nice vid for my Votann Army ist currently under construction. And well i have questions...
Votann need:
Jump Infantry or similar
Beserker Leader
Dedicated "Tank"
Dreadnought/Carnafex unit
They need a sats boost, more accurate shooting & melee.
Dwarves are always seen as major tanky or glass cannon melee. We got garbage 😂
Jump flamer troops! Or flamer bikes.
They did votann so dirty. But hey when they change the points to dirt cheap to match the dogshit datasheets you can enjoy buying more models I guess…. Nevermind that sucks too
Thank you for making the Tier List regarding the Diggy Diggy Hole faction!
Brothers of the mine rejoice!
I think the last commentary on kahls really means "appraising glare", instead of "a long list"
I'd go almost full MEQ with them. Up them to two wounds each, up to 3 on the berserks and their not-terminators (4 with the add on thing that boosts wounds). Then rebalance their weapons from there.
Votann need stat boosts, not point changes. The Entire setup seems to be elite midrange shooting and counter-charging but they took away most of the teeth from the shooting aspect. Fundamentally they need to bring back baseline BS 3+
Puns! Some one is asking for a grudging. (On serious note great work as always, keep the puns coming)
Thanks for the video
At the very least the squats need their ballistics skills improved across the board to be playable I think. Without a judgement token their shooting is almost entirely hitting on 4s and 5s (not to mention at 18-24” range and 1-2 attack weapons on high costed models) making it super unreliable to even get chip damage in anywhere. With a judgement token they still shoot worse than unbuffed space marines.
That opening was flawless. 😂
I want tougher units that deal more damage, not to have to pay ebay scalpers and pray GW puts the few good units back in stock, or hordes of hearthkyn because we are supposed to be a horde army now.
I love the kin and they will always be my main army but points changes will not fix the fundamental issues with the current army rules.
Best introduction ever
Sagituars have scout but all units in the transport requires scout to use it. It transports no scout units
The intro puns have me a laugh
Sagitaur is Tier 1 IMHO, the missiles and the guns allow it to roam around and do some decent damage - it can take out elites and poke enemy vehicles and transports quite nicely and with a cheap 5 man inside to get out and sticky or just screen it - they're quite a cheap mobile gun boat. Everything else - yeah I can agree with. The frustrating part is our Tier 1 is a lot of other armies Tier 2-3.
The issue is them and the Land Fortress are so costly you might at best bring 3 of them, and that's a very small amount for enemies to focus fire on. The Low model count in your infantry units also means Anti tank weapons are also pretty effective at smashing infantry units.
My thing with the sagitaur is its dollar cost permodel, do i want a bunch of (frankly) epensive models that are at the end of the day LIGHT armor or do i want my chonkaton fortresss and terminators for mobility. On paper sagitaur isnt bad and works perfect for what your using but theres just frankly better armies for dealing with mobile light armor. Like "oh your guard comes out the taur and you got sticky, welp i just moved a genestealer unit over there through a strat and just demo charged wverything over there to death" hell even against IG cadians in a chimera is kinda better then a sagitaur and 5 hearthguard. And im personally a sagitaur fan too and i know the limits on them currently.
Thunderkyn > hekachonk by a mile.
Thunderkyn come in from reserves and pretty much destroy whatever they're targeting.
Hekachonk, in cover or not, goes down fast to anti-tank. As the only 'threat' tank on the table, it's the target that makes sense.
Re-roll to wound is nice, but the caveat that it has to be a unit that the hekachonk hits is annoying.
I hate how Votann went from being made better when notable enemy threats incur JTs to instead being dependent on JTs just to reclaim the BS/WS they used to have.
If they think points cuts and just making us field more models is the way, we may as well play Tau.
Man those squat puns!
SHORT?!
strongest move with votann right now is , pick another faction.
Toughts on the point changes?
S H O R T?
Space Dawi! Let’s go!! :)
Yep. I split my warriors with sagi, maxed hearthguards and go murder hobo while my splitted units stick everywhere and die like cultists. Yaaay.
Great example of how some designers decide to balance their games by simply flipping a faction by nerfing everything previously good and buffing everything that wasn't.
Almost unbelievable how the Hearthguard and Thunderkyn in particular have gone from some of the most useless pieces in the game, to be near auto-included when playing the faction.
I’ll second everyone who said that dropping the points costs isn’t the answer. Same goes for Death Guard, Admech and Sisters. Making vehicles so much tougher and not adjusting the power of the anti-tank weapons available to the infantry has very nearly broken the game. Votann is at the bottom because they can’t take Knights to bolster their lists like the other bottom dwellers or run a Daemon Primarch and generic chaos armour.
ah yes, the 4 units in the leagues of votann
In the top tier of this list, is the strange one at the back who's slightly purple. Yes, The one with 4 arms and Hisses alot.
No one mentioning the chunkaton fortress lost like 3/4 the weapons it had
sagitaur loses a lot because you cant have it without including berserks or warriors into list
Other factions have the Rhino tax, we have the Warrior tax to take transports.
Leagues of Votann made me consider starting with the hobby instead of just reading lore as i have for years. and now i am glad i did not.
they got a points drop and are no longer this bad
GW hates squats so much it’ll bring them back just to nuke them
“Dwarf” :)
“Come up short” :)))))))
where is kill team
I’m completely done with votann at the moment which sucks because I had bought the starter box. 80% of the index is ass and the other 20% is still just so bad
come up short you say!
9:50 you cannot target models inside the character unit until the Bodyguard unit is dead. The core rules leqves no choice, so the Roboter1are only ablative wounds for the iron master himself.
(If i recall correctly, but we had a discussion about that in our local group recently)
Instead of LoV, can Squats make a comeback?
Play Necromunda. Squat is now a derogatory term for the descendants of the LoV who joined the Imperium at the time of the Great Crusade
@@Tulkash01Which makes sense honestly, the name "squat" doesn't sound particularly kind or official lol
Should be a short video
i though the vid is gona be 7 min long(bcs they are a small army)
I really dislike how they made a new faction, buffed it to the sky to sell good and then immediately nerfed it back into the ground.
I don't need them to be amazing, I just want them to be viable.
Everything in D tier? 😭
Add a comment...😢
I always find it weird these guys exist in 40K. For a space fantasy setting it makes sense to include space gnomes though in comparison to the power struggle from other races and chaos, they seem to be a niche addition to me with neat models
Why? You had perfect explanation for why they where there in the lore.
Humans made to work in high gravity environment.
They make much more sense, than the ogryn or rattlings.
They make more sense than the eldar.
Why would the old ones, who probably looked like lizards or toads, make a humanoid race to be their psykers?
And this would be 60 millions years before the first human, so they did not have us to copy and make "better".
Squats where explained, GW just did not like them, for reason they did not explain.
And we know they did not explain, because the "official" reason, was 3 different ones that did not match each other.
My guess, people at GW just hate cultures like dwarfs.
Whats so different between having space dwarves and space gnomes and space elves and space orcs?
@@Dorsidwarf Nothing at all like I said, it makes sense for them to exist. I just find it's mostly the lore from what I see:
The eldar now with split factions, were a once great empire that collapsed and caused the birth of slaanesh
The orks that are a comic relief are an almost invincible force to other parts of the galaxy.
The votanns seem to be almost like space pirates that don't care about terra which they came from and go out to gather anything valuable to them.
In comparison the votanns don't seem to be affecting the lore majorly in any way which is also fine, not everything needs to be a grand spectacle, though they remind me a lot about the other games GW has like Necromunda with it's setting being in the hive worlds
@@PeterSnores The reason why Votann does not affect the current lore much, is because they did not want to have to rewrite all the old lore they had already made.
And they did not want to give us back the Squats, because then they would have to admit that Squating them was a mistake.
A corporation never admit they made a mistake, because that could lead to lawsuits.
They could have just given us back the Squats, say the reason for why we had not heard from them the last 500 years was that they where trapped in a warp storm, but as I said, they do not want to admit to a mistake.
So, instead they where a break of colony of humanity in the 20K who had been hiding in the galaxy core. And since we have no clear lore from before the Emperor started his primarch program, that means we would have no lore about them.
First
It's kind of amazing how the Kahl is effectively top of list, but you give him a name, and he's suddenly the absolute bottom. Also odd how this list, compared to the 9th one, reorganizes. Things that might've bottomed that list score a lot higher here, and vice versa.
As an aside, I'm wondering how fair it was to score the Betserks so low? I'm nor saying that they are better, but maybe don't most factions' melee options sort if suck, this edition? It seems plenty of orher armies' dedicated assault troops likewise took ugly nerfs, of sorts, or with various rules changes, just aren't as effective. No disrespect; just babbling a thought.
Beserk should, as far as I can tell, be even lower.
Remember, they have speed 5. They can not be teleported in, Sagitaur only carry 6 models (and beserk comes in groups of 5 or 10) and they have no leaders that can join them.
So either, you star on your side of the map, they move and sprint every turn, and will be just in charge range, when the last model gets shoot down. (assuming the opponent did not move 6 back while continue shooting)
Or you put them in a sagitaur. You move them into charge range, turn one, then they all gets shoot down in one turn, because 5 models with no defense does not survive 1 turn shooting.
Or you could use your Heakaton to move them. In that case, you will get 10 models into charge rang, and they will survive to charge next turn.
But only because your opponent will target the Heakaton, that you sacrificed to get them into melle with 1 unit. The Heakaton that cost the same as the unit, but is much more valuable.
And the beserkers will still be killed in 1 turn, after they have killed that one unit, assuming they even win.
Unless you play on a map totally covered in ruins, they are basically just easy victory points for your opponent if he get the right goal.
It's because Berserks are basically 9th edition Wulfen but used defensively. Park them on an objective and the opponent either needs to waste a turn shooting them or they cause melee problems. They 100% punch up for their points value and a screen of them with Hearthguard on a point is probably the best situation a Votann player can have.
No sure how dumb you gotta be to take epic metal beards away from dwarfs , when I heard squats were coming I was literally prepared to buy every kit multiple times and make a division of them......then I saw them and there dumb lore and put my money back in my wallet. Swing and a miss epic miss. GW would of made so much more money if they made them right.
Gotta say I not really fussed about the Votann having bad rules, they don't fit into 40k at all so the less I see of them the better.
Mean rant over.
A, but Tau do? Or custodies?
Dont give me that "does not fit in the 40k" bullshit. You just do not like them, because in a short periode in 9th, they where able to counter your rule exploiting army, and you are not willing to forgive them for that.
Hater posts on the internet. How novel.
Basically your “ argument” amounts to:”Me no like faction, me no want it to exist. Rant over, me has to put more crayon up nose!”
Well done!
Now look at us!
SHORT ?!