I am not sure why there is so much pushback against India’s desire for self-reliance, particularly in critical like semiconductors and defense. Encouragement to manufacture in India doesn’t automatically mean protectionism.
There are plenty of “Indians” who, for petty political gains, are not happy with India emerging as a world superpower. Anything good for India is a serious concern for them and presented as environmental, human rights, equity, minority rights, social oppression, or anything else they can concoct to stop the progress. Amongst the top 20 economies in the world, India is the hardest country to govern.
@@daipayanbhowal8914 you are funny, you know nothing about economy and protectionism yet you are commenting on my statement? how dare you? Of course develop manufacturing sector in own country is not considered as protectionism, but impose high import duty, and implement other rules to prevent foreign goods from entering own country market, is considered as protectionism. India is implementing protectionism, and this is not wrong. Every country will implement protectionism if they plan to develop their own manufacturing sector, Japan did it, South Korea did it, Taiwan did it, and China did it. Please don't even comment on something that you don't know, shame on you.
I am a Pakistani citizen but honestly speaking, keeping in view the economic progress of India and downfall of Pakistan it is an insult to India to compare it with Pakistan.
Initially per capita data favoured Pakistan but as time passed the balance tilted in India's favour as India pursued a policy of self reliance even if it meant lesser income for some time.
India would now like the world to compare itself with South Korea, Malaysia, Brazil, Canada, Australia, more on the development side than on mere Size of GDP.
Honestly, your not a Pakistani. Your a Indian pretending to be Pakistan and singing the Indian narrative. I can as easily do the same "HONESTLY I am a Indian and I am jealous how Pakistan despite being far, far smaller has kept up with India and indeed has done better at poverty and protecting its people from covid. While we in India have shackled 250 million Indians into ritual slavery otherwise called caste untouchables Pakistan by comparison is a far more equal society". SO THERE!
Pakistanis economy never really took off. They just got bloated on military and economic aid. For the economy to have taken off, they would have had to have established sustainable industries, exports … , none of which was ever seen.
1. Pakistan got disproportionately large agricultural land in comparison to its population. Both west Punjab and Bangladesh were good for agriculture. 2. West Punjab has one of the most irrigated canal lands in the world. 3. It didn’t have the industry, but the war was just over and huge industrial components were available for imports especially from US of which Pakistan was an ally 4. Pakistan didn’t suffer from socialist disease that other post colonial nations suffered. 5. It didn’t had to feed large bureaucracy unlike India. Pakistan has advantages that it blew it off. It has itself to blame
28:43 😂😂😂 this guys is such a joke. He literally says India's service sector is an accident and then follows that by saying the service sector growth happened because of Indian investment in higher education early on. It's like saying I went to the gym for an year and accidentally developed muscles 😂 Before that he says India'sn primary education achievements aren't better than Pakistan's but conveniently doesn't provide any facts or figures for his statement. Why don't you compare literacy rates, school enrollment etc.?
Literacy is a false measure. It is the collective level of mind of a society that one should talk about. Collective state of the mind and how it looks at issues, critical thinking and reasoning. Those are very important things that are equally or more important that able to read and write. I wish people measure nation states on such things because that is what shows the state’s ability to holistically raise their people’s thinking which leads to economic growth, justice and liberty, freedoms, press and more.
India's Self reliance or what we call atmanirbhar is essentially focussed on reducing China dependence and to reduce risks in Defence. Beyond that, India had signed or in process of signing unprecedented numbers of FTAs - UAE, Australia, UK, EU, GCC / Saudi Arabia.
Modi government is reportedly removing restriction on flag manufacturing to domestic industry only. There are reports that Modi has permitted to import Indian flags from China for the 75th year of Independence celebrations!
Self reliance has one major flaw. If you’ve read economics India was following this path only and that is why they failed badly. It was only after 1991 that India started LPG policy and witnessed its fruits. We need to be very careful about self reliance and should not shy away from importing products in which we have no mastery or lack resources.
Can we beat China in low cost manufacturing, scale and quality? Most likely no. So by banning Chinese imports you are hurting the economy and building inefficiency. This will hurt India in the long run.
So India will trade with other countries but then FTAs are more mutual-benefits kind of agreements, that India is working on. We did not signed for generic trade agreement where some 26 or more countries are signatories. I remember a lot from opposition and some industry experts criticised that.
Crazy economists blame Hindus for slow economic growth in 1950's. It's nehru/ congress rate of growth. Hindus did extremely well by leaving country large numbers.
@@EoamerGaming97 TBH india's economy was extremely protectionist and socialist, which is why indian growth rates was high after 1991 reforms, nothin really to do with hindus
@@EoamerGaming97 economist don't have monopoly over everything related with economics.. It's like mechanic having monopoly over BMW and AUDI .. Even over opinions about The data is there fir everyone to see To yeah, he does matter
Atif Mian may be an accomplished and well-placed economist, but he betrayed his Pakistani mindset - when he makes an unnecessary snide remark about Indian PM Modi and his Hindutva policies... If Hindutva (nationalism based on Hinduism) is so bad... how can he justify the existence of Pakistan which was formed on the basis of Islam and its nationalism remains deeply entrenched to Islam and hindu hatred? So much so that everything in Pakistan begins with and ends with Islam and geared towards hatred of other religion - particularly Hinduism. Even he himself is a victim of this Sunni Islamic radicalism being an Ahmadiya. Pakistaniyat is based on "hindu-hatred" and jihad against hindus... This ideology is at the heart of every Pakistani - whether he is located inside Pakistan or outside...
If you are a Pakistani, I am surprised by your sane argument. It's difficult to see beyond what's one been taught since birth,not only through academic institutions but through social channels of interaction also.
@@mrgyani That is why thre is no single temple in Church and TEmple in whole of Islamabad !! There is millions of mosques in India almost in every where ...
Amina Abdulla : It is inside their study book from childhood.. look at their study book, nothing new all recorded... not only Hindus, but Jews too and white women... 70/75 years means 2/3 generation, just think about it... deep fanaticism, casual for them...
How exactly is Indian protectionism bad? EU is far more protectionist. It actively discourages skilled migration, encourages mass migration (who would be in blue collar jobs for one generation, at least) and uses language barrier to protect own labour market (even against other EU countries, who technically are entitled to labour market equality).
Read how protectionist policy failed India before 1991. After LPG reforms India’s GDP grew only because we left that policy. But seems we are again embracing Protectionist policies by denying membership of RCEP, not having FTA with EU etc.
@@amanthakur95 if you are comparing pre 1991 with what is being done now, that my advise for you is to go back to reading the basics of economics. China followed exactly the same, if not harsher so called "protectionist" policies and yet today it is where it is
@@amanthakur95 we have ftas concluded during UPA's govt with Asean and Bangladesh but none of those helped us enhance our position in trade. Most of them have negatively affected us. Promoting mindless Lassez faire nonsense has been a staple in Europe and America. Open your eyes and ears and start using your brain for once rather than blindly following western economic theories, all of which has been designed to favour the rich nations.
@@avishekbhattacharjee812 ... guessing you are from west Bengal. .. with all due respect. . West Bengal kept electing communist government for more than 40 years ... then why did west Bengal dint grow like china? Just a point to ponder.
My constant observation when I hear discussions in foreign Institutions by Indian participants you will invariably come across some India bashing even without context to appear objective and unbiased . Comparing Modi with Bhutto and label him as dictatorial is going a bit too far.
Bhutto in no way comparable to Modi. Modi focused on NE and integrated it fully with the rest of the country with deft moves. Bhutto lost EP with his obstinate approach, that onlyWP could rule Pakistan. One obvious factor which is critical economical development is continuity of governance and smooth transfer of power between successive governments, which Pakistan woefully lacked
Modi is a statesman. I have lived in US most of my adult life and I can say he is surrounded by real people and many having western experience in all fields and wants to do the right thing for all Indians. I have NO doubt his heart is in the right place. He is too nationalistic and Indians have always wanted a strong man to run India given the coalition governments that were being made from 1990-2010 and none of them really cared about the country. I think Modi will win but I expect him to be challenged by the west and China and it won’t go uncontested. But, I am absolutely convinced he is the right man for india and this being from a southerner. People in south don’t fully agree or trust the North Indians, but I don’t think many in south India can say ‘his heart is in the wrong place’. It is because of this, I would vote for him anyway.
Miya Bhai has typical very biased view against Modi and India . This guy who is a prof says democratically elected Modi is autocratic . What a shame. Kuch pe padh le kahin bhi reh Len Hindu Hate always visible ....
@@merebaap8370 so what is your point?? Modi shouldn't have got absolute majority? He will get another comfortable term next. Your life is going to be more miserable after that , I guess with disappointment
@@jyatimali2033 I have a pretty comfortable life. What people like you don't understand is that absolute power vested in one will result in dictatorship. Which means you will have no say in the matters of this country. Justice and welfare are 2 things that is thrown out first. In other words enjoy slavery to the fullest. People like you think of only vested interests and have little long term vision. I have a doubt whether you have Indian citizenship. You are either American or British.
@@merebaap8370 Indians are smart and clever and they know the power of democracy. If they find Modi is not good enough they will throw him out ,so dont worry. 😊
India is a net importer. This puts an enormous pressure on the exchange rates and making imports more expensive. The major contributors to imports are oil and defence. Cutting that down will give India some cushion.
Coming to the end of the seminar I am amazed as how everyone has missed the elephant- the small matter of Pak sponsored terrorism aimed at India. Unless Pakistan gives up on it there's no hope of present regime in India responding
Yes. The extreme provocative behaviour of Pakistan has jeopardized any possibility of normal relationship. Before Modi, successive governments - Gujral, Vajpayee, Dr Singh- kept grovelling before Pakistan and the final reward for their efforts was 26/11 - an ISI operation. Following that India started being more realistic. Modi tried to improve relations but Imran was abusive even stooping to personal insults Yet these panelists talk as if improving relations is being stalled by Delhi From an Indian perspective, Pakistan offers nothing and it is better to ignore it as one would ignore a mosquito The analysts also ignore a couple of vital points. The US have Pakistan millions in aid - not investments or loans- till nearly 2000. The US attitude towards India was virulently aggressive especially during the Nixon and Clinton presidencies. 9/11 brought some sanity in American policy and eventually ended US support to Pakistani terrorism directed at India. However, 9/11 also saw an influx of American money into Pakistan. Essentially, Pakistan did well economically whenever the US poured money into it. Over the last decade, Americans are not giving Pakistan free money and it's economy is performing as expected
@@ramachandrankannan274 Pakistan had become addicted to living on US freebies. Their economy went if the cliff once US Aud dried up. The pulling out of US from Afghanistan was the final straw. It is estimated that upto US $5-6 million of foreign exchange found it's way to Pakistan and kept the forex market comfortable. Now Pakistan needs to get it's hands dirty like any normal nation which it may find tough. Don't agree on ABV grovelling but one should look at two main reasons why Modi is so confident- One is a majority Govt and second is the mature wayvthey handled the finance including CAD, Fiscal Deficit and accumulation of Forex Resrrves.
@JPREET Dhillon setiously? India has been so prominent that the best intelligence agency in the entire universe has not been able to presentvone credible evidence.
Some points about what Prof Atif said 1. Regarding higher military expenditure and economy where Pakistan differs from South Korea and India now is that it has not created a domestic economic spin off on those investment. 2. Regarding the ‘characteristics’ of migrant between India and Pakistan is that Pakistan lost its entire Hindu ‘Baniyas’ whereas there were very few business class that went to Pakistan. Mostly the moneyed landed class. Moreover Hindus benefited more than Muslims in the British administrative system. Clearly the business ethos and acumen is the difference. 3. Very right about Nehru continuing the ‘democratic’ tradition because it suited him more and his descendants too. 4. Comparing investment in thermal power sector in CPEC and India through NTPC/BHEL in 70s, while India developed an entire power equipment industry with World bank loans, Pakistan industry was clearly kept out of CPEC investment Coming to Arvind Subramanyam (remember Sunabeda Arvind) 1. Compared to what Raghuram and Arvind would have us believe that India did better Pre-2014 than post- 2014, how much of that should be attributed to the low hanging fruit being exploited in the initial decade or more. 2. Is the selective protectionism that India is now adopting not a result of no holds bar China swamping India, not by very fair means. Take case of API, Solar panels, power equipment and many more sectors which almost got wiped out and needed to be protected. Liberalising doesn’t mean Harakiri Lastly is it not unethical and immoral for Raghuram and Arvind to criticise Modi’s actions during a period when they were advising Modi. Reeks of political bias
I really like the broad and fair points you covered. I only watched half of the debate, as I again found the panelist biased assessment and presenting the true pic of how Modi, trying to expand socialism to its real avatar, where all section really gets benefits and is trying to uplift them to so they can also make meaningful contribution to economy. Modi's vision is more inclusive collaboration where he is engaging with world for not only Indian benefits but also for everyone's benefits. His vision of Solar alliance, transitioning fast to a clean energy programs, brining hitech industry in India, boosting defense exports, PLI are all inclusive growth programs.
I think your interpretation of the talk is very much in line with your prevailing ideology. #2 & 3 - Atif was making a point on how the elite Muslims who moved from India to Pakistan had no political base there. And this is what led to the military takeovers - because they just didn't have the political base to win elections. And democratically control & rule the population. He wasn't talking economy. And ironically, Pakistan was doing fine after independence (was almost neck to neck with India economically, and then overtook India in 65 till 90s and 2000). Despite losing the 'hindu baniyas' and business ethos as you say.. So, there goes your argument. Meanwhile the Indian political elites had their bases and infrastructure intact, and hence could lead India democratically. (sounds very different than your #3 'Nehru was democratic because it suited him' ). I would like to address other points in your comment as well but wouldn't know where to begin. And how many of your fallacies and misninfo to counter. So let's leave it at that.
Very nicely summarized - Venkat! Despite the good name of the WoodrowWilson Center, the least they could have done is get better Indian Speakers, who seem to be quite dated in their knowledge of what's happening in India.
@@mrgyani pakistan was never a creation which was well thought of..it reflects in it's inability of it's founding fathers to keep it democratic.. talking about baniyas well it did hurt however the pakistan was clearly better of cause of it's newly found position with west and the Arabs.. contrary to India which only had Soviets to look upto.. Democracy in India was never a choice but rather an obligation considering it's size and vastness..you couldn't have had any other system to keep such mass under one rule
Pakistan chose to pursue Terrorism and Indian Hatred and proxy war with India India chose path of higher education,Technological Growth, IT, and Industrial Growth
That’s not true. The USA has dragged Pakistan into multiple wars and left it in tatters. India has constantly tried to drag Pakistan into the grey and black list of FATF. Regional powers work better together. IK was very keen on discussing issues impacting the region but Modi is not interested at all.
@@ascorpio1 The heck Niazi was interested. He abused Modi in totally crass and unbecoming language from every podium he got, including that of the UNGA. He wanted to engage with India on _his_ terms, i.e. dictate to Modi. As the smaller and weaker party, that was never going to happen.
@@ascorpio1 Pakistani Politicians and Military rulers took millions of American $$$$ for participating in So called American war on terror All corrupt Military rulers and politicians are out of Pakistan settled in Western countries and Rich Arab countries have ran away from Pakistan
One of the major differences between India and Pakistan is that Indian middle class values education over religion. Culture of education is very high and the younger generation is working extremely hard. Women workforce participation is low but there are increasingly more and more women who are fighting everyday battles with their families to be able to keep working and make a career.
2 comments - 1. Basically, India has had at least a few leaders who have truly loved India and consequently tried their best for the welfare of India. 2. With regards to the Pakistani gentleman's hope for good relationships, it is simple.... All Pakistan needs to do is to cease cross border terrorism.... Mumbai 2008, etc, etc, etc. Till then, there is no ethical, moral, justifiable reason for India to 'normalise' relationships. Also, it was Imran Khan who ceased trade with India.
They have deep rooted hindu hatred , from elite to daily wage worker to media to middle class and even poor They all have it.. They teach it in even their Text books, How bad Hindus and Sikhs are .. That the reson of their creation, that the reson of their existence. That their only utility to the world .. Other reason as terrorism , etc are just a romantic excuses
Pakistan is practicing a "Thousand cuts" policy. Terrorism is stemming from this Policy of Pakistan. What happened to Shimla acord between Bhutto & Indira Gandhi ? What happened to peace talks/accord when Vajpai visited Pakistan ? who derailed the process ? How sincere was Pakistan when they talkd of peace in the past ? Many Indians wonder weather Pakistan has any consistent policy on peace or has only jealousy ?
India and its economic aspirations and plans must be compared with China and United states. US economy is 9 times bigger than India while its population is 1/5. We must bridge the gap with China and US.
China and USA? lol. Even Pakistan doesn't have 32 crore bhooka nunga who live far worse life than 4 crore poor of Pak. Why are you forgetting 28 Indians committing hunger suicide on daily basis. No one has ever committed hunger suicide in Pak. Subscribe to Western media instead of listening to 2nd lowest rated media in the world
@@sabrinakhan8217 Yes, that is we are aspiring for. India will be the 3rd largest economy after US and China, it already is on ppp terms. It's not very high aim. This years total export - merchàndise + IT is above 600 billion dollars. It is lot less than 2.4 trillion dollar Chinese merchandise exports, but not that far. India is already 3 trillion dollar economy. It just needs one push in the manufacturing sector in few of our Southern states. Union Govt is also honest and strong. There is no corruption at higher level. We are on right path and all countries support India's economic transformation as well. We have no enemies unlike China which is perceived as enemy in the west. And yes there are lots of problems and lots of poverty, that will be reduced like it was reduced in China. There is a long way to go but the country is on a right path and 1.4 billion people must succeed to change their collective destiny.
@@Mukesh_Devrari Highly exaggerated numbers will fall flat when the population is over 1.3 billion. and half of it lives under $3 a day. India is presumed as largest economy because of 1.3 billion assumed consumers. Over 1.3 billion people will never be actual consumers in the next 50 years for sure.
@@sabrinakhan8217 Some parts of India growing fast, others lag behind but will catch up. Like China developed few Economic zones in coastal regions, India is preparing manufacturing centers in coastal areas as well. From Kashmir to Kanyakumari, India is better connected now. BJP is doing remarkably well in building highways. Economic change is palpable, but we recognize the challenges we have to overcome as well. We are optimistic about India's economic future and it will emerge as the next centre of global growth and will have one of world's biggest stock market. India and China will be two important nations which will contribute in shaping the destiny of humanity on this planet. It will be an Asian century.
True this conversation is about Pakistan and Bangladesh!! India’s lack of growth till 1991 was due to the Nehru-Indira policies. Otherwise India compares to China and how it differs from China, both the good and bad.
@@greatgatsby6953 Yet , he let his emotion took over his decision and he made few very false statements and comments which are far from reality.. Just because he hates one person and one community.. That is one of may examples, that education alone is not sufficient for personality development
@@greatgatsby6953 is that BCz he believes Mirza Ghulam Ahmad buttfucked anguthachaap jahil gando Nabi laudakhor tattikhor Muhammad in his ghazi haji namazi aashiq gay rasool pichwada 5 times a day whenever he raised it in air for Allah 😂😂😂
The Pakistani panelist is alarmed by the animosity seen between Pakistan and India. Is he willing to see the reason behind this animosity? All the panelists are not willing to delve on the reasons behind this. Why do they hesitate to state that it is nothing but Islamization which is the main cause of this deep distrust between the two. Yes Hindutva is on the rise in India. But isn’t it because of the way Pakistan has conducted itself in this region?
Hindutav is actually a good thing which says Hinduism over caste based division.. Only jihadiss, anti india elements, hindu haters are afraid of hindutva. I'm all support for intercaste marriage, having meals together, and having hindu identity over their caste or regional or linguistic identity..
Neither Pakistan, nor Indian Muslims responsible for what is happening in India today. It is a self reinforcing cycle - you play communal politics, you win. You do more of it, and win more and get more power. Do more, become invincible for next 40 years with absolute consolidation of power. A positive feedback loop that will not end before radicalizing the entire country. Today even if all 18 crore Muslims became perfectly secular model citizens, the hindutwa politics of the country won't change one bit.
@nothing happened in India 🇮🇳by accident... India and indians are adaptive and leverage on difficult times with their creative and innovative mind .... We missed out the pager revolution and leapfrogged into the telecom revolution and now leapfrogging into the digital revolution ...connect the dots beyond economists POV
Pakistan has been punching above its weight for too long… trying to whip-up “Kashmir frenzy” with concocted stories and get better of India on every front! In this backdrop it must have been very hard to find out the harsh reality that even Bangladesh has raced ahead of it! As per recent IMF data, Pakistan’s GDP dropped to $284 billion in 2019 and has become less than 1/10th that of India’s 2019 GDP of $2953 billion. Meanwhile Pakistan’s forex reserves have tanked below $10 billion while India’s forex reserves have crossed $600 billion recently and continues to grow unabatedly. And for the first time, Bangladesh GDP of $317 billion in 2019 has surpassed that of Pakistan. With a GDP growth rate 3 times that of Pakistan, Bangladesh is sure to increase this lead over Pakistan in leaps and bounds going forward. Today Pakistan has no hopes of reversing this trend and catching up with India or Bangladesh! It should now be aware of new competition in South Asia from Sri Lanka, Nepal and Bhutan.
the numners you are looking are of 2019 which dropped down alot of the rupee crises in 2019 and then it catched up to its older or actually higher levels again. Comapiring with numbers from 2019 is not accurate.
The participants are Mr. Atif Mian invited to Economic Advisor by IK the then PM but protests in Pakistan as he isn't a Sunni Muslim made him refuse. Mr. Arvind Subramanian was CE Advisor to Mr. Modi but turned anti Indian once his term wasn't renewed. What interest can audience have in their views.
this is the greatness of us hindus bro ...we listen to everything and take whatever is good ..let the haters hate ...they hate modi coz modi is making india strong the hate him coz he does not compromise and they will keep doing it ..what we need to do is to keep getting stronger so that we can defend ourselves.
So basically Atif Miyan was rejected by the fanatics in Pakistan. And Arvind being rejected by the fanatics in India (as 'anti national' because he criticizes the Supreme leader).. PS: Arvind's tenure was extended, but he QUIT, and decided to leave for USA mid-term. There's no question of his tenure not being renewed. Its the same with even pro-bjp economists like Panagariya, who left US and came to India to work for this govt, but went back. Even the last CEA (KV Subramaian) has left. Not a single intellectual sticks in this govt, because they have no power, no say in decisions.
A few minutes into the conversation, it just comes across why WW is having a discussion about Pakistan and India as it does not make sense. It should be Pakistan and Bangladesh and how they diverged!!
A layman's point of view about free trade with India : Harley Davidson opened a dealership in my city, Hyderabad. A number of German cars sell in India.So do Swedish, French ,Japanese and Korean cars. With regards to restrictions on imports, US imposes dumping duties on steel from China . So, what is free trade in your eyes ?
Even when China does it, its still considered open. Its only a problem when India doe it. China has even stricter control over its data but that doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone. US was happily in bed with China.
We should remember the fact that yearly revenue from export of IT related industries is about 150 billion US dollar , which is significant achievement India has attained so far.
Here is my layman's point of view: Unemployment has been a problem in India since 1960s. The question is : what is unemployment ? Right from 60s, colleges are churning out graduates who do not find enough white collar jobs. In the rural India employment is getting better due to expanding irrigation.Rural productivity is much better today.Construction activity is leading the migration of semi skilled and unskilled people to the urban areas.
I only watched half of the debate, as I again found the panelist biased assessment and not presenting the true pic of how Modi, trying to expand socialism to its real avatar, where all section really gets benefits and is trying to uplift them to so they can also make meaningful contribution to economy. Modi's vision is more inclusive collaboration where he is engaging with world for not only Indian benefits but also for everyone's benefits. His vision of Solar alliance, transitioning fast to a clean energy programs, brining hitech industry in India, boosting defense exports, PLI are all inclusive growth programs.
Brother this is serious discussion by two world class economists, at WoodrowWilsonCenter. Not a WhatsApp discussion.. I can't make heads and tails of the meaningless gibberish you wrote. What the heck does all this mean? What the heck does 'expanding socialism to its real avatar' mean? What is 'inclusive collaboration where he is engaging with the world not only for Indian benefit but for everyone's benefits'? What is 'brining hitech industry in India' ? What is his socialism? Giving 2 free cylinders after which they have to pay for it themselves? Who pays for these socialist policies - is the money coming from sky? What about when kejriwal does the same for poor? And is the Modi govt socialist or fiscally prudent, plz decide and let me know. And where is this inclusive development? Does it show in the economic figures anywhere? Let me give you the facts : - income inequality has INCREASED in India. Only Russia has a higher income inequality than India - the percentage of billionaire wealth from crony industries has increased from 29% to 43% - there has been reverse migration to the villages from cities (people moving back from cities to villages for the first time, because there are no jobs) - manufacturing as % of GDP has steadily declined - exports as % of GDP has steadily declined
Guys , it is much simpler than the long winding lectures you have given. Pakistan was doing fine until they had US backing them with their funds. The moment they (US) pulled the rug from under their feet , they stand thoroughly exposed for the wonderful life they were having through easy money.
Actually US didn’t pull, Pakistan pushed them while they did trust China. Why they did that, they thought they will have better bilateral dynamics. But China has swept away any competition in the market. Even Samsung is facing backlash, small controversy, permanent market for vivo. Pakistan didn’t learn anything from its history.
"Pakistan is an experiment " ---- Maulana Abul Kalam Azad "Pakistan will be a laboratory" ---- Muhammad Ali Jinnah Experiments don't run forever. And sometimes they blow up the laboratory.
These eminent economists need to check the ILO report on Employment Trends from 2015 till the pandemic whem South Asia and especially India had the best performance on a worlwide basis in creating employment
Yhe Atamnirbhar doctrine or as these distinguished panelists prefer to muslabel as protection is solely aimed at reducing dependency on China ans mainly for strategic reasons
OK so you will teach the ex economic advisor of India the ILO numbers? I am looking at an ILO graph, and India has consistently had higher unemployment than Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka since 2005. And it shot up in 2020. The gap hasn't reduced one bit. Our unemployment was at a 45 yr high just before the 2019 election, and govt hid this report from NSSO before elections. Senior members of statistical commission had resigned in protest. Data from CMIE puts the unemployment rate even higher than what is claimed officially.
@@mrgyani seriously. From 2015 to 2019 India had best performance in employment generation- check the ILO surveys of the years. This unemployment faje story has been further busted by KV Subramanian. Check his tweets over the last 3 days. He was the CEA till a few months ago.
@@dodiraj1 just before 2019 elections India's unemployment was at 40 year high. And the govt tried to hide this data by NSSO. Members of statical commission had resigned in protest. Even right now according to CMIE we have high unemployment (but will need to verify once, don't quote me on it).
Better topic would be "Bangla Desh and Pakistan at 50 : A Tale of Two Divergent Economic Paths". India and Pakistan have very different cultures, one follows Hinduism, non-violence, betterment of all, self-reliance, science and technologies, elected democracy. On the other hand, Pakistan follow islam; trains, supports, sends terrorists to neighboring countries; spreads jihadism; tries to grab lands from neighbors - Iran, Afghanistan and India, Army runs civil govt. Moreover there is wide gap in population and area. Better comparison is BanglaDesh and Pakistan - both are similar in religious practice, size, population, et al. Hope to see a debate on this topic.
Pakistan is mindset 75 years old, soon to perish on the sands of time. Mother India is a Eternal continuous living GRAND CIVILISATION since time immemorial. अस्तु....
India should remain India.Just like another country. Recently it was troubled by Pakistani terror. And each country should be left to manage its own affairs.
Intellectually dishonest for Atif to throw his unnecessary comments on Modi in there, when the conversation did not ask for it. The Indian speaker did not counter or correct him either which is even more appalling. Pakistan has the reputation of still being the number 1 state sponsored terror factory on the planet- everyone knows that. How much Koolaide has atif actually drunk??? Please don't invite such speakers in the future, Your own reputation is at stake. The Quality of the guests in other think tank discussions is pretty high. This has been on the lower end to be honest.
classic case of apologetic approach of Indian so called academicians ....so wary of belittling the other side .... American Dream for their kids ....Wow.... Darwaza hamesha andar se khula hai
Again as expected Atif brings in Indo-Pak relations in a purely economic discussion, justifies partition due to population incompatibility but also says common culture etc. etc.. Why dichotomy is not seen by him? Possibly natural for him. He is alarmed by polarisation on the Indian side today, does he not see what Pak has been doing all these years? Where are the roots of this, has he ever thought of it? I’m also alarmed by it. But asking nobody in particular to do something about it looks to me as if he is trying to say India is responsible for the deteriorating situation. Please try to look in an unbiased manner and ask specific people to do what they must. On the economic front every group tries to protect and promote its interests, so do the rich. It’s for the policy makers to balance it out and ensure environment for collective progress is created.
Was India better off that the Indo-Pak-Bangla split happened ? It reduced the number of south asian muslims. Since this particular minority is inordinately regressive and oppressive ?
No data suggests that. India has been generally doing well since 1991 after the economy opened up. Poverty reduction accelerated during the UPA era. What is worrying is, some states including some of the Southern States, Gujarat, Delhi are doing quite well, laggards like Bihar, UP, WB are in perennial decline. If some of the backward states fire up, Indias number would start improving rapidly.
It’s not because of Modi but because of the way India has started on such a strong foundation. It’s because of our founding fathers and their policies which happened in the first 50 years, we are beginning to see the fruits now. For ex, Our non alignment stand has helped today’s Foreign minister talk with his head held high in the international forums.The fruits of What Modi is doing today will be seen 20 years hence. That’s how the growth is measured.
As an indian why i have to carry the burden of being compared to Pakistan always. cant we just move on. i mean many thing happened in 1947 world over. its okay if Pakistan also happened to get its independence in the same year.
how is this a "burden" to you? what prevents *you* from moving on? is this burden slowing down poverty reduction in India? or does it just hurt your wanting to feel superior?
Amaresh nothin superior abt it.. indians dnt want to be compared to army, dictator confused islamic democracy state. Same as we dnt want to be compared to communist china..and here china is better on many parameters..still we dnt want to b compared coz india is different and unique
Insulting to compare the two. One is just about the most important rising power in the world and the other is a failed state which poses a threat just by its mere existence. Shame- this could have been such an enlightening conversation if facts were actually addressed. The speakers were a very poor choice. You could have got some one from a reputable think tank or an actual foreign policy expert or even an actual economist who has intellectual integrity. Instead of 2 people with baggage and were both rejected in their respective governments. Shocking.
Why are we comparing with Pakistan . This year pakistan grew at 0.29 percent against a population growth of 2.48%. I am more worried refugees might start following towards India.
I agree with Dr.Mian that looking at military expenditure in isolation is reductive, but the cost of the military's domination in Pk is much more than the military budget; it distorts the basic orientation of the state, from economic prosperity, and people's welfare, towards security. That said, the size of the budget itself is not immaterial. The examples of South Korea and the US are not equivalent in crucial ways; the US was already an economic powerhouse when it ramped up military expenditure in WWII, and Korean security was always explicitly underwritten by the US, the Koreans did not shoulder this burden alone. Also, in spite of similar historic animosity, the US umbrella ensured Korea was deeply linked to the regional economic engine i.e. Japan. The cost of military domination in Pk is a very damaging economic divorce from what is the largest regional economy by far.
And, if I may add, in fact since there were so many soldiers fighting in WWII, the need for labor brought an entire generation of American women into the manufacturing industry to manufacture military supplies and in the economy in general for all kinds of manufacturing and services jobs where men were not available. So, it created an even more positive impact on the American economy, unlike the Pakistani military which has really skewed Pakistan's political and economic structure and viewpoint.
Whatever aid Pakistan was getting it get siphoned off to the retired dual citizen homes either in Canada or Britain. Canada has now become the second home for retired Pakistani generals.
In the 80s and 90s, going abroad, we used to find every day use consumer goods, that were produced in India, pakistan, bangladesh, vietnaam, thailand and cutting edge electronics were produced in JAPAn. after 2000s all the products that are being sold in europe and rest of west is produced in CHINA. WHich shows lot of trade loss form the developing countries.
Why does he keep saying Hindu rate of growth? I know it was an old term used but why has slow growth been attributed to religion? Sub Saharan Africa is mostly Christian. Why no term for “African Christian” rate of growth. Has Afghanistan or Pakistan’s economic turmoil been coined as a “Muslim rate of growth”?? Funnily in India Hindu fertility rate is much lower than Muslim fertility rate but no religion based generalisation such as “Muslim birth rate”can be made because its “communal” and a nuanced discussion which looks at region by region is required 🙄I am not justifying labelling I just find it offensive that our community must stomach generalisations that other communities escape, just because we don’t riot or cause trouble when our religion offended unlike……..
It was debate between two and half Pakistani vs Half Indian. No appreciation, understanding of Indian economic, political achievements inspite of size , diversity and social complexity.
This discussion is bit off the mark with regards to India. Atmanirbhar in defence production of finished products not only sustains itself insulating against foreign blackmailing but also act as another potential driver of high value export (Brahmos etc). Same true for semiconductors, green energy equipment, health products(vaccine, drugs) and others. NM is proindia business (thanks madam) and it isn't a bad strategy. Bilateral FTAs will help.
Indias trajectory is outstanding especially under PM Modi whose vision is reshaping the future of the people of India- Let us look at some fact 1-India become 5th largest Economy from 11 in 2014 in terms GDP and 3rd in PPP, 2- 141 medical colleges in 8 years compare 154 medical colleges 67 years of congress rules 3- 5.5 lakh optical fiber covering 3 lakh villages while in 67 years of congress only 369 kms covering only 59 villages 4- 4.03 Lakh Magawatt power production increased now in 8 years while on 2014 it was 2.43 lakh megawatt so almost double 5. from 1991-96 and 2004 -2014 , in 15 years congress built only 24 K roads while BJP govt 51K Kms highways just in 8 years
How any one can have any logical and rational talk without mentioning how pakistan have adopted radicalization, terrisam and hinddu hate as their national policy......You will find madressa at every corner in pakistan and all they do is how to prove that we did smart thing by converting to mullagiri and how every one is scheming against us mulla because we are such a visionary people.
Highly acclaimed experts panel. Sanjay raised excellent pertinent questions. Experts summarized 75 years of issues within 15 minutes each. Remarkable! I learned a lot in 1& 1/2 hours. Thanks to Wilson Center.
After considerable reflection on Dr. Mian's comments about the military's role (or lack thereof) in Pakistan's chronic economic malaise, I think his reasoning is not quite sound. The comparison with American military spending makes little sense. The US is a premier economic and technological power, and enters all of its military programs with a position of overwhelming military and economic strength. Pakistan's case is very different. It's military objectives are against a much bigger power, and seek to change the status quo. This is a very difficult objective in very difficult conditions, and therefore pulls in substantial resources from Pakistan's development activities. While Dr. Mian's analysis and reasoning regarding elite behavior makes a lot of sense, he is seriously downplaying the much bigger and more important role the military has played.
Very mature response by Arvind, “polarisation in one part will enhance polarisation in other”. That is a serious question to be pondered over by every citizen of the sub-continent, rather than listening to religious and political interests citizens need to take the front seat here and decide their future. We are human beings seeking good life, God by whatever name, didn’t send us to fight and kill each other. He/She doesn’t even want us to promote their name and interests, S/He is too powerful to look after Himself or Herself.
Why do we even need to Compare India with Pakistan. Even Afghanistan is better than Pakistan. India is definitely growing but it's not enough. We need to work more on Public Infrastructure and AI. We should see how China went ahead of us and what can we learn from them. I believe the future for India will be bright ✨✨✨
Typical, the anchor an apologist and uncomfortable in his skin of an Indian and a Hindu, while a panellist from the other side justifies whatever could be wrong for his favourite side without referring to any data or logic. Anyway, interesting discussion, most of it unbiased and analytical. Well done WilsonCentre.
Now, this is an intellectual debate. Everyone is respectful to each other, dealing with differences in a very polite and educational manner, talking with facts instead of hearsay or relying on any sort of gossip.
Top 10 Countries by GDP in 2030 as per a Report by Standard Chartered:- 1. China: $64.2 trillion 2. India: $46.3 trillion 3. US: $31 trillion 4. Indonesia: $10.1 trillion 5. Turkey: $9.1 trillion 6. Brazil: $8.6 trillion 7. Egypt: $8.2 trillion 8. Russia: $7.9 trillion 9. Japan: $7.2 trillion 10. Germany: $6.9 trillion
Atif conversation was very intelligent and real economics. We can right quantitative equation from his conversation. Mr Arvind conversation was more like history class
India had no investment taking place when FTA was promoted in 2005\6…This need to be reversed the reason FTA was revoked and now with various countries India is doing trade agreement taking place. Now investment is taking place in manufacturing to global volume level and say after 5 years or so India may start joining FTA
Pakistan should not compare it with India. Pakistan should compare it with bangladesh, Indonesia, brazil, Nigeria, Egypt, Ethopia, congo , Philippines, mexico vietnam. These countries have somewhat comparable population to pakistan. Moreover, Obsession of kashmir and Afghanistan should be over. Rather security, economy should be prioritized, India is not stupid to attack any country that can retaliate with nuclear war heads. Land reforms opening economy, opening trade route for India to central asia must be used for economic and political dividends.
😂😂😂😂 best of all comments...compare these stupid minds calling themselves a country with some others although those others will raise serious objections to it too like us .. Bangaldesh, Indonesia and Brazil certainly will 🤣🤣
I am quite perplexed and surprised at the level of ignorance the Pakistani speaker has on India specially on two things: 1. He calls Nehru a Dynast. Come on this is utter ignorance. If India is still a democracy its only because of policies initiated and implemented by the first democratically elected government of India under the prime ministership of Jawaharlal Nehru. It is Nehru who established India's democratic institutions and he institutionalised the democratic culture through his long 17 year tenure as Prime Minister. He never groomed Indira to be his successor. Infact Indira was airdropped as a compromise candidate by the then congress leadership after the death of Nehru's successor Sri Lalbahadur Shastri and she was famously known as The Gungi Gudiya (dumb puppet) in the initial years. It is infact after the advent of Indira Gandhi that the Nehru family became the real Dynasts in all practical sense. 2. Second he calls Modi an authoritarian. Come on this is another nonsense. Whether you like it or not Modi is an immensely popular, smart, politically suave, democratically elected Prime Minister of India not once but twice and may be thrice if the trend continues. Modi is no authoritarian. His decisions can never be authoritarian because India is so diverse in all sense with diverse interests, pulls and pushes. No authoritarian regime can survive in the Indian society at its current level of maturity. So Modi is leading by consensus. Ofcourse Modi has so many opponents and detractors but he can never lead Indian society by authoritarianism. Domestic Indian politics may be different. In the domestic Indian democratic oposition politics you may call some body as an Authoritarian or a dictator for scoring political points. But that doesnt mean that he is actually an authoritarian. An outsider should never confuse with what is happening inside within the domestic Indian politics, which is a different ballgame altogether. Despite the opposition, He is there in that leading position because he is delivering what he has promised or atleast people believe that he can deliver what he is promising. So long as that trust is there he will continue to lead. This shows how skewed an opinion even the Pakistani intellectuals have about India, its society and its leadership. May be it may have something to do with the years of academic distortions or indifference encouraged in Pakistani society when it comes to India.
Biased Analysis..How can a country which has just signed Free trade agreements with Australia and UAE and is on verge of signing it with Canada, Israel and UK..Is it difficult to digest that India is inward looking. Besides, India's self reliance is focussed on reducing over dependence on supply chains, and focussing on integrating itself to the supply chains. How is India inward looking??
When anyone starts this rhetoric myth that Pakistan is poor because Pakistan was given larger military compared to India, it is just a laugh joke and point to feel ashamed for any Pakistani like me. This statement just show that Pakistan’s leaders including the father figures like Jinna were so dumb that they did not have any plan whatsoever and it also gives credit to the theory that Jinna and Muslim league were created to create Pakistan for the west’s ulterior motives - and till today, Pakistan’s civil military rulers have proved that ulterior motives right by becoming a rental state to western powers - while India as a country and nation state has proved its worth in global affairs.
Atif is wrong . The main problem of Pakistan is its military. The military spending in pakistan, takes a huge chunk of the budget that could have been put in development and education and agriculture so that pak could be self reliant. They could have progressed like Bangladesh. As far as Kashmir goes, it was declared an independent nation in 1947. Suddenly the pak army attacked it and started looting, raping( similar to Bangladesh situation). Raja Hari Singh sought Indian intervention and became a part of India. Even UN recognizes that and the condition of plebiscite is that Pakistan removes its army first from Kashmir. This is history. Now at present the army uses the Kashmir excuse to drain all development money. The generals have palaces while the common man has no food. Now for trade, what can pakistan trade? Again why should India want to trade with Pak. Actually indian goods are sold to pak through Dubai. So why bother. India doesn't need pakistan, whatever Atif says. It's the other way around . India has helped all its neighbours in time of crisis. But as Jayshankar said all we got was terrorism in return. So no, India should not start trade with Pakistan. India did try to be nice. Gave it most favoured nation status, pakistan didn't reciprocate. We did amaan ki asha and then Kargil happened. Then it was IK who stopped trade. So no, India is the 5th largest economy in the world, don't compare it with Pakistan.
An absorbing and nuanced discussion on the factors behind the different trajectories of India, Pakistan's economies. All I understood from Atif Mian is , to suggest that the disproportionate Military expenditure has caused the economic stagnation. While there is no denying there are other factors too, he sounded a bit justifying the military spending. I wish he had come forth more clearly on this count.
Yes, he was justifying it. He never said it was bad. He said, there is no evidence to suggest military spending in Pakistan was bad. He gave examples of US and Korea which also had high military spending and it turned out OK for them..
What to do , if he doesn't do that entire islamic Republic of Pakistan will be at his door step to do halala with his Ahmadi ammi khala and convert them from murtad to momina 😂😂
I'm really surprised at the comments being made learned panel on slowing of India's growth in last decade. The panel needs to comprehend & understand that india has learnt lessons in Covid & later Russia-ukraine issue and further strengthens the path taken by India in last 6-7 years. India is a large domestic consumption economy and world will have to come to India and do business which suits India and is sustainable in long term for India. The panel would do good to listen to Jaishanker & understand India's stance.
The main issue of pakistan/difference with India - early death of Jinnah & absolute failure at leadership level to take new country forward. - Continuance of feudalism in Pakistan - Above both, giving chance to Pakistan army to come in. - Pakistan sitting in laps of US and being used for US interests. - Duo of Bhutto & Yahya khan breaking pakistan , radicalization of pakistan - Zia ul haq - Pakistan Army capitalizing on this and coming to power directly or indirectly. - Sharifs & IK Niazi continue to be puppets of same army. - weakening & absolute no rise of institutions. - Catch 22 sutuation now and habit of surviving on loans with no intention of closure of loans. - Nuclear country is on rent. - insurgency (Balochistan, KPK, Sindh etc ). - Economy etc wont help. - only solution : disintegration of Pakistan into another 4 parts like Bangladesh. No other way. - there is no way India will gain by engaging with your country and no need to change any status Mr Atiq.
Obsession towards Kashmir followed by promotion of terrorism in india 🇮🇳 and use of terrorism as source of power ruined Pakistan.... Also I feel insulted when you people compare Pakistan with us
BJP's policy towards Pak is dramatically different to previous governments. They see Pak as a permanent adversary, and would prefer a politically, economically and diplomatically weak Pakistan.
I love Atif Mian. We are proud of you Sir. He has hit the nail at the right spot. As for Urdu speaking, something that people do not know there has been a lot of integration of the community into the Pakistani population due to intermarriage and social comingling etc. The current generation of Urdu speaking are not really like there forefathers. They are now more Pakistani than there other brethren. Hats off to Prof. Atif Mian again.
Overall summary is that India shouldn't be too smug about their achievements and strive for better and higher. Pakistan is doomed anyway, so that comparison is futile.
I am not sure why there is so much pushback against India’s desire for self-reliance, particularly in critical like semiconductors and defense. Encouragement to manufacture in India doesn’t automatically mean protectionism.
A sad excuse of a debate.
Because you know nothing about the definition of protectionism
@@silentboomber LOL .. Doing Manufacturing in you're country is not protectionism, you don't know the definition of protectionism
There are plenty of “Indians” who, for petty political gains, are not happy with India emerging as a world superpower. Anything good for India is a serious concern for them and presented as environmental, human rights, equity, minority rights, social oppression, or anything else they can concoct to stop the progress. Amongst the top 20 economies in the world, India is the hardest country to govern.
@@daipayanbhowal8914 you are funny, you know nothing about economy and protectionism yet you are commenting on my statement? how dare you? Of course develop manufacturing sector in own country is not considered as protectionism, but impose high import duty, and implement other rules to prevent foreign goods from entering own country market, is considered as protectionism. India is implementing protectionism, and this is not wrong. Every country will implement protectionism if they plan to develop their own manufacturing sector, Japan did it, South Korea did it, Taiwan did it, and China did it.
Please don't even comment on something that you don't know, shame on you.
I am a Pakistani citizen but honestly speaking, keeping in view the economic progress of India and downfall of Pakistan it is an insult to India to compare it with Pakistan.
Initially per capita data favoured Pakistan but as time passed the balance tilted in India's favour as India pursued a policy of self reliance even if it meant lesser income for some time.
Actually that has now become "it is a deep insult to _Bangladesh_ to compare it with Pakistan!"
India would now like the world to compare itself with South Korea, Malaysia, Brazil, Canada, Australia, more on the development side than on mere Size of GDP.
Honestly, your not a Pakistani. Your a Indian pretending to be Pakistan and singing the Indian narrative. I can as easily do the same "HONESTLY I am a Indian and I am jealous how Pakistan despite being far, far smaller has kept up with India and indeed has done better at poverty and protecting its people from covid. While we in India have shackled 250 million Indians into ritual slavery otherwise called caste untouchables Pakistan by comparison is a far more equal society". SO THERE!
Bangladesh is an excellent economy
Pakistanis economy never really took off.
They just got bloated on military and economic aid.
For the economy to have taken off, they would have had to have established sustainable industries, exports … , none of which was ever seen.
1. Pakistan got disproportionately large agricultural land in comparison to its population. Both west Punjab and Bangladesh were good for agriculture.
2. West Punjab has one of the most irrigated canal lands in the world.
3. It didn’t have the industry, but the war was just over and huge industrial components were available for imports especially from US of which Pakistan was an ally
4. Pakistan didn’t suffer from socialist disease that other post colonial nations suffered.
5. It didn’t had to feed large bureaucracy unlike India. Pakistan has advantages that it blew it off. It has itself to blame
28:43 😂😂😂 this guys is such a joke.
He literally says India's service sector is an accident and then follows that by saying the service sector growth happened because of Indian investment in higher education early on.
It's like saying I went to the gym for an year and accidentally developed muscles 😂
Before that he says India'sn primary education achievements aren't better than Pakistan's but conveniently doesn't provide any facts or figures for his statement.
Why don't you compare literacy rates, school enrollment etc.?
Literacy is a false measure. It is the collective level of mind of a society that one should talk about. Collective state of the mind and how it looks at issues, critical thinking and reasoning. Those are very important things that are equally or more important that able to read and write. I wish people measure nation states on such things because that is what shows the state’s ability to holistically raise their people’s thinking which leads to economic growth, justice and liberty, freedoms, press and more.
@@surudog4929 yes please do provide an objective and convenient way to measure critical thinking skills.
He didn't talk like intellectual. Looked totally confused.
@@tamberlame27 instead of asking me, go read up and inform yourself. I don’t have time for that.
@@surudog4929 no but you have time to make useless statements without providing any actual solutions or alternatives
India's Self reliance or what we call atmanirbhar is essentially focussed on reducing China dependence and to reduce risks in Defence. Beyond that, India had signed or in process of signing unprecedented numbers of FTAs - UAE, Australia, UK, EU, GCC / Saudi Arabia.
Modi government is reportedly removing restriction on flag manufacturing to domestic industry only. There are reports that Modi has permitted to import Indian flags from China for the 75th year of Independence celebrations!
Self reliance has one major flaw. If you’ve read economics India was following this path only and that is why they failed badly. It was only after 1991 that India started LPG policy and witnessed its fruits. We need to be very careful about self reliance and should not shy away from importing products in which we have no mastery or lack resources.
@@Geetavish Which is why we want Yogi or even better Himanta Biswa Sharma at the helm
Maulana Modi is a gone case, a Mo Gazi alias Gandhi 2.0.
Can we beat China in low cost manufacturing, scale and quality? Most likely no. So by banning Chinese imports you are hurting the economy and building inefficiency. This will hurt India in the long run.
So India will trade with other countries but then FTAs are more mutual-benefits kind of agreements, that India is working on. We did not signed for generic trade agreement where some 26 or more countries are signatories. I remember a lot from opposition and some industry experts criticised that.
Crazy economists blame Hindus for slow economic growth in 1950's. It's nehru/ congress rate of growth. Hindus did extremely well by leaving country large numbers.
are u an economist or even an apprentice in any financial bench? Well if not u simply dont matter my friend
@@EoamerGaming97 TBH india's economy was extremely protectionist and socialist, which is why indian growth rates was high after 1991 reforms, nothin really to do with hindus
@@kevinmathews4641 ofc it doesnt have anything 2 do with Hindus or any religion,
@@EoamerGaming97 economist don't have monopoly over everything related with economics..
It's like mechanic having monopoly over BMW and AUDI ..
Even over opinions about
The data is there fir everyone to see
To yeah, he does matter
Yeah no comparison, just Banglore+Hyderabad economy is bigger than whole Pak.
Also TCS (indian it company) is bigger than Pakistan's national stock exchange
Mumbai alone
Atif Mian may be an accomplished and well-placed economist, but he betrayed his Pakistani mindset - when he makes an unnecessary snide remark about Indian PM Modi and his Hindutva policies...
If Hindutva (nationalism based on Hinduism) is so bad... how can he justify the existence of Pakistan which was formed on the basis of Islam and its nationalism remains deeply entrenched to Islam and hindu hatred?
So much so that everything in Pakistan begins with and ends with Islam and geared towards hatred of other religion - particularly Hinduism.
Even he himself is a victim of this Sunni Islamic radicalism being an Ahmadiya.
Pakistaniyat is based on "hindu-hatred" and jihad against hindus...
This ideology is at the heart of every Pakistani - whether he is located inside Pakistan or outside...
If you are a Pakistani, I am surprised by your sane argument. It's difficult to see beyond what's one been taught since birth,not only through academic institutions but through social channels of interaction also.
@@chanchalbpsingh6708 its an IT cell account, you can tell by the last 2 paras especially.
So Islamism is bad for Pakistan, but hindutwa good for India?
Religious fanaticism is ALWAYS BAD - be it in India or Pakistan.
@@mrgyani That is why thre is no single temple in Church and TEmple in whole of Islamabad !! There is millions of mosques in India almost in every where ...
Amina Abdulla : It is inside their study book from childhood.. look at their study book, nothing new all recorded... not only Hindus, but Jews too and white women... 70/75 years means 2/3 generation, just think about it... deep fanaticism, casual for them...
The fact that Pakistan thinks it's somehow still comparable to India is the biggest joke of this decade.
I agree with your view.
It is a biggest joke of milenium !!
PK needs to compare itself to Bangladesh - and try and see if they (PK) can beat Bangladesh economically.
How exactly is Indian protectionism bad? EU is far more protectionist. It actively discourages skilled migration, encourages mass migration (who would be in blue collar jobs for one generation, at least) and uses language barrier to protect own labour market (even against other EU countries, who technically are entitled to labour market equality).
Read how protectionist policy failed India before 1991. After LPG reforms India’s GDP grew only because we left that policy. But seems we are again embracing Protectionist policies by denying membership of RCEP, not having FTA with EU etc.
@@amanthakur95 if you are comparing pre 1991 with what is being done now, that my advise for you is to go back to reading the basics of economics. China followed exactly the same, if not harsher so called "protectionist" policies and yet today it is where it is
@@amanthakur95 we have ftas concluded during UPA's govt with Asean and Bangladesh but none of those helped us enhance our position in trade. Most of them have negatively affected us. Promoting mindless Lassez faire nonsense has been a staple in Europe and America. Open your eyes and ears and start using your brain for once rather than blindly following western economic theories, all of which has been designed to favour the rich nations.
anything from asia is always viewed with skeptism and color of skin matters no matter what you do and the colonial mindset still exists
@@avishekbhattacharjee812 ... guessing you are from west Bengal. .. with all due respect. . West Bengal kept electing communist government for more than 40 years ... then why did west Bengal dint grow like china? Just a point to ponder.
My constant observation when I hear discussions in foreign Institutions by Indian participants you will invariably come across some India bashing even without context to appear objective and unbiased . Comparing Modi with Bhutto and label him as dictatorial is going a bit too far.
Bhutto in no way comparable to Modi. Modi focused on NE and integrated it fully with the rest of the country with deft moves. Bhutto lost EP with his obstinate approach, that onlyWP could rule Pakistan.
One obvious factor which is critical economical development is continuity of governance and smooth transfer of power between successive governments, which Pakistan woefully lacked
Indians in the West are more loyal to White masters than Whites themselves. LOL
Modi is India's pragmatic Guru! Pakistan is dying of ENVY, False Pride and religiosity! How many Mullahs does it take to run an ECONOMY and HIGH TECH?
Modi is a statesman. I have lived in US most of my adult life and I can say he is surrounded by real people and many having western experience in all fields and wants to do the right thing for all Indians. I have NO doubt his heart is in the right place. He is too nationalistic and Indians have always wanted a strong man to run India given the coalition governments that were being made from 1990-2010 and none of them really cared about the country.
I think Modi will win but I expect him to be challenged by the west and China and it won’t go uncontested. But, I am absolutely convinced he is the right man for india and this being from a southerner. People in south don’t fully agree or trust the North Indians, but I don’t think many in south India can say ‘his heart is in the wrong place’. It is because of this, I would vote for him anyway.
he is sulking. let him go. excuse him and give peace to your mind. i did same.
Miya Bhai has typical very biased view against Modi and India . This guy who is a prof says democratically elected Modi is autocratic . What a shame. Kuch pe padh le kahin bhi reh Len Hindu Hate always visible ....
Arey bhai dushman ki g@nd mein aag lag rahi hai iska mtb modi is doing great for India
Modi is autocratic. But that is bcoz Indians have given absolute majority. Absolute power is dictatorship. So what's the surprise?
@@merebaap8370 so what is your point?? Modi shouldn't have got absolute majority? He will get another comfortable term next. Your life is going to be more miserable after that , I guess with disappointment
@@jyatimali2033 I have a pretty comfortable life. What people like you don't understand is that absolute power vested in one will result in dictatorship. Which means you will have no say in the matters of this country. Justice and welfare are 2 things that is thrown out first. In other words enjoy slavery to the fullest. People like you think of only vested interests and have little long term vision. I have a doubt whether you have Indian citizenship. You are either American or British.
@@merebaap8370 Indians are smart and clever and they know the power of democracy. If they find Modi is not good enough they will throw him out ,so dont worry. 😊
India is a net importer. This puts an enormous pressure on the exchange rates and making imports more expensive.
The major contributors to imports are oil and defence. Cutting that down will give India some cushion.
When you have two enemies across border then defence cut is not option
@@rohanpawar2166 not defence cuts but replace defence imports by made in india to reduce exchange rate pressure on the rupee
Add edible oil to the list of major imports.
Renewal energy resources will make india less dependent on fossil fuel imports
Coming to the end of the seminar I am amazed as how everyone has missed the elephant- the small matter of Pak sponsored terrorism aimed at India. Unless Pakistan gives up on it there's no hope of present regime in India responding
Yes. The extreme provocative behaviour of Pakistan has jeopardized any possibility of normal relationship. Before Modi, successive governments - Gujral, Vajpayee, Dr Singh- kept grovelling before Pakistan and the final reward for their efforts was 26/11 - an ISI operation. Following that India started being more realistic. Modi tried to improve relations but Imran was abusive even stooping to personal insults Yet these panelists talk as if improving relations is being stalled by Delhi From an Indian perspective, Pakistan offers nothing and it is better to ignore it as one would ignore a mosquito
The analysts also ignore a couple of vital points. The US have Pakistan millions in aid - not investments or loans- till nearly 2000. The US attitude towards India was virulently aggressive especially during the Nixon and Clinton presidencies. 9/11 brought some sanity in American policy and eventually ended US support to Pakistani terrorism directed at India. However, 9/11 also saw an influx of American money into Pakistan. Essentially, Pakistan did well economically whenever the US poured money into it. Over the last decade, Americans are not giving Pakistan free money and it's economy is performing as expected
@@ramachandrankannan274 Pakistan had become addicted to living on US freebies. Their economy went if the cliff once US Aud dried up. The pulling out of US from Afghanistan was the final straw. It is estimated that upto US $5-6 million of foreign exchange found it's way to Pakistan and kept the forex market comfortable. Now Pakistan needs to get it's hands dirty like any normal nation which it may find tough. Don't agree on ABV grovelling but one should look at two main reasons why Modi is so confident- One is a majority Govt and second is the mature wayvthey handled the finance including CAD, Fiscal Deficit and accumulation of Forex Resrrves.
Cz US was supporting Pak back then
@JPREET Dhillon setiously? India has been so prominent that the best intelligence agency in the entire universe has not been able to presentvone credible evidence.
Some points about what Prof Atif said
1. Regarding higher military expenditure and economy where Pakistan differs from South Korea and India now is that it has not created a domestic economic spin off on those investment.
2. Regarding the ‘characteristics’ of migrant between India and Pakistan is that Pakistan lost its entire Hindu ‘Baniyas’ whereas there were very few business class that went to Pakistan. Mostly the moneyed landed class. Moreover Hindus benefited more than Muslims in the British administrative system. Clearly the business ethos and acumen is the difference.
3. Very right about Nehru continuing the ‘democratic’ tradition because it suited him more and his descendants too.
4. Comparing investment in thermal power sector in CPEC and India through NTPC/BHEL in 70s, while India developed an entire power equipment industry with World bank loans, Pakistan industry was clearly kept out of CPEC investment
Coming to Arvind Subramanyam (remember Sunabeda Arvind)
1. Compared to what Raghuram and Arvind would have us believe that India did better Pre-2014 than post- 2014, how much of that should be attributed to the low hanging fruit being exploited in the initial decade or more.
2. Is the selective protectionism that India is now adopting not a result of no holds bar China swamping India, not by very fair means. Take case of API, Solar panels, power equipment and many more sectors which almost got wiped out and needed to be protected. Liberalising doesn’t mean Harakiri
Lastly is it not unethical and immoral for Raghuram and Arvind to criticise Modi’s actions during a period when they were advising Modi. Reeks of political bias
I really like the broad and fair points you covered. I only watched half of the debate, as I again found the panelist biased assessment and presenting the true pic of how Modi, trying to expand socialism to its real avatar, where all section really gets benefits and is trying to uplift them to so they can also make meaningful contribution to economy. Modi's vision is more inclusive collaboration where he is engaging with world for not only Indian benefits but also for everyone's benefits. His vision of Solar alliance, transitioning fast to a clean energy programs, brining hitech industry in India, boosting defense exports, PLI are all inclusive growth programs.
I think your interpretation of the talk is very much in line with your prevailing ideology.
#2 & 3 - Atif was making a point on how the elite Muslims who moved from India to Pakistan had no political base there. And this is what led to the military takeovers - because they just didn't have the political base to win elections. And democratically control & rule the population. He wasn't talking economy.
And ironically, Pakistan was doing fine after independence (was almost neck to neck with India economically, and then overtook India in 65 till 90s and 2000). Despite losing the 'hindu baniyas' and business ethos as you say.. So, there goes your argument.
Meanwhile the Indian political elites had their bases and infrastructure intact, and hence could lead India democratically. (sounds very different than your #3 'Nehru was democratic because it suited him' ).
I would like to address other points in your comment as well but wouldn't know where to begin. And how many of your fallacies and misninfo to counter. So let's leave it at that.
Very nicely summarized - Venkat! Despite the good name of the WoodrowWilson Center, the least they could have done is get better Indian Speakers, who seem to be quite dated in their knowledge of what's happening in India.
@@mrgyani pakistan was never a creation which was well thought of..it reflects in it's inability of it's founding fathers to keep it democratic.. talking about baniyas well it did hurt however the pakistan was clearly better of cause of it's newly found position with west and the Arabs.. contrary to India which only had Soviets to look upto..
Democracy in India was never a choice but rather an obligation considering it's size and vastness..you couldn't have had any other system to keep such mass under one rule
Excellent points
Pakistan chose to pursue Terrorism and Indian Hatred and proxy war with India
India chose path of higher education,Technological Growth, IT, and Industrial Growth
But now, we are on the path of religious nationalism and calls for 'hindu rashtra'..
@@mrgyani I don't know that
Bur we don't host Osama Bin Laden
and bluff Americans for more than a decade and pretend to be American ally
That’s not true. The USA has dragged Pakistan into multiple wars and left it in tatters. India has constantly tried to drag Pakistan into the grey and black list of FATF. Regional powers work better together. IK was very keen on discussing issues impacting the region but Modi is not interested at all.
@@ascorpio1
The heck Niazi was interested. He abused Modi in totally crass and unbecoming language from every podium he got, including that of the UNGA.
He wanted to engage with India on _his_ terms, i.e. dictate to Modi. As the smaller and weaker party, that was never going to happen.
@@ascorpio1
Pakistani Politicians and Military rulers took millions of American $$$$ for participating in So called American war on terror
All corrupt Military rulers and politicians are out of Pakistan settled in Western countries and Rich Arab countries have ran away from Pakistan
While no country is perfect, Pakistan now is a security state and that is one of the biggest reason for its problems.
Rogue state* … not security state
This happen when you feed, support, fund terrorist's. There is God, your God. ... Pakistan
One of the major differences between India and Pakistan is that Indian middle class values education over religion. Culture of education is very high and the younger generation is working extremely hard. Women workforce participation is low but there are increasingly more and more women who are fighting everyday battles with their families to be able to keep working and make a career.
2 comments -
1. Basically, India has had at least a few leaders who have truly loved India and consequently tried their best for the welfare of India.
2. With regards to the Pakistani gentleman's hope for good relationships, it is simple.... All Pakistan needs to do is to cease cross border terrorism.... Mumbai 2008, etc, etc, etc.
Till then, there is no ethical, moral, justifiable reason for India to 'normalise' relationships. Also, it was Imran Khan who ceased trade with India.
you are absolutely correct but some more to add !! As long as they run hate mongering madrasa school you can expect the country will downward !!
They have deep rooted hindu hatred , from elite to daily wage worker to media to middle class and even poor
They all have it..
They teach it in even their Text books,
How bad Hindus and Sikhs are ..
That the reson of their creation, that the reson of their existence.
That their only utility to the world ..
Other reason as terrorism , etc are just a romantic excuses
Pakistan is practicing a "Thousand cuts" policy. Terrorism is stemming from this Policy of Pakistan.
What happened to Shimla acord between Bhutto & Indira Gandhi ?
What happened to peace talks/accord when Vajpai visited Pakistan ? who derailed the process ? How sincere was Pakistan when they talkd of peace in the past ? Many Indians wonder weather Pakistan has any consistent policy on peace or has only jealousy ?
India and its economic aspirations and plans must be compared with China and United states. US economy is 9 times bigger than India while its population is 1/5. We must bridge the gap with China and US.
China and USA? lol. Even Pakistan doesn't have 32 crore bhooka nunga who live far worse life than 4 crore poor of Pak. Why are you forgetting 28 Indians committing hunger suicide on daily basis. No one has ever committed hunger suicide in Pak. Subscribe to Western media instead of listening to 2nd lowest rated media in the world
@@sabrinakhan8217 Yes, that is we are aspiring for. India will be the 3rd largest economy after US and China, it already is on ppp terms. It's not very high aim. This years total export - merchàndise + IT is above 600 billion dollars. It is lot less than 2.4 trillion dollar Chinese merchandise exports, but not that far. India is already 3 trillion dollar economy. It just needs one push in the manufacturing sector in few of our Southern states. Union Govt is also honest and strong. There is no corruption at higher level. We are on right path and all countries support India's economic transformation as well. We have no enemies unlike China which is perceived as enemy in the west. And yes there are lots of problems and lots of poverty, that will be reduced like it was reduced in China. There is a long way to go but the country is on a right path and 1.4 billion people must succeed to change their collective destiny.
@@Mukesh_Devrari Highly exaggerated numbers will fall flat when the population is over 1.3 billion. and half of it lives under $3 a day. India is presumed as largest economy because of 1.3 billion assumed consumers. Over 1.3 billion people will never be actual consumers in the next 50 years for sure.
@@sabrinakhan8217 Some parts of India growing fast, others lag behind but will catch up. Like China developed few Economic zones in coastal regions, India is preparing manufacturing centers in coastal areas as well. From Kashmir to Kanyakumari, India is better connected now. BJP is doing remarkably well in building highways. Economic change is palpable, but we recognize the challenges we have to overcome as well. We are optimistic about India's economic future and it will emerge as the next centre of global growth and will have one of world's biggest stock market. India and China will be two important nations which will contribute in shaping the destiny of humanity on this planet. It will be an Asian century.
True this conversation is about Pakistan and Bangladesh!! India’s lack of growth till 1991 was due to the Nehru-Indira policies. Otherwise India compares to China and how it differs from China, both the good and bad.
Haribol !!! Hare Krishna !!! Hare Krishna !!!
Atif Miah is a Professor at Princeton University, USA -Einstein was a professor, here!
@@greatgatsby6953
Yet , he let his emotion took over his decision and he made few very false statements and comments which are far from reality..
Just because he hates one person and one community..
That is one of may examples, that education alone is not sufficient for personality development
@@greatgatsby6953 is that BCz he believes Mirza Ghulam Ahmad buttfucked anguthachaap jahil gando Nabi laudakhor tattikhor Muhammad in his ghazi haji namazi aashiq gay rasool pichwada 5 times a day whenever he raised it in air for Allah 😂😂😂
The Pakistani panelist is alarmed by the animosity seen between Pakistan and India. Is he willing to see the reason behind this animosity? All the panelists are not willing to delve on the reasons behind this. Why do they hesitate to state that it is nothing but Islamization which is the main cause of this deep distrust between the two. Yes Hindutva is on the rise in India. But isn’t it because of the way Pakistan has conducted itself in this region?
Hindutav is actually a good thing which says Hinduism over caste based division..
Only jihadiss, anti india elements, hindu haters are afraid of hindutva.
I'm all support for intercaste marriage, having meals together, and having hindu identity over their caste or regional or linguistic identity..
Hindutva is on the rise because of Islamic teππoπism in the first place.
Neither Pakistan, nor Indian Muslims responsible for what is happening in India today. It is a self reinforcing cycle - you play communal politics, you win. You do more of it, and win more and get more power. Do more, become invincible for next 40 years with absolute consolidation of power.
A positive feedback loop that will not end before radicalizing the entire country.
Today even if all 18 crore Muslims became perfectly secular model citizens, the hindutwa politics of the country won't change one bit.
@@mrgyani Aap ka gyan thoda confused lag raha hai mr. gyani? I suggest you study Indian history and philosophy a bit more deeply.
@@mrgyani So who started it first ?
Muslims.
Who should stop it ?
Muslims.
I always say, Hindutva is reactionary.
@nothing happened in India 🇮🇳by accident... India and indians are adaptive and leverage on difficult times with their creative and innovative mind .... We missed out the pager revolution and leapfrogged into the telecom revolution and now leapfrogging into the digital revolution ...connect the dots beyond economists POV
Michael Kugelman is a ISI stooge.
Most US universities are anti-india. That's why indians experience most racism in USA than in any other places.
Pakistan had done well as long as USA patronized Pakistan.
When USA got bored of Pakistan, Pakistan lost it's glitter and glory.
Pakistan has been punching above its weight for too long… trying to whip-up “Kashmir frenzy” with concocted stories and get better of India on every front! In this backdrop it must have been very hard to find out the harsh reality that even Bangladesh has raced ahead of it!
As per recent IMF data, Pakistan’s GDP dropped to $284 billion in 2019 and has become less than 1/10th that of India’s 2019 GDP of $2953 billion. Meanwhile Pakistan’s forex reserves have tanked below $10 billion while India’s forex reserves have crossed $600 billion recently and continues to grow unabatedly.
And for the first time, Bangladesh GDP of $317 billion in 2019 has surpassed that of Pakistan. With a GDP growth rate 3 times that of Pakistan, Bangladesh is sure to increase this lead over Pakistan in leaps and bounds going forward.
Today Pakistan has no hopes of reversing this trend and catching up with India or Bangladesh! It should now be aware of new competition in South Asia from Sri Lanka, Nepal and Bhutan.
pakistans gdp in 2021 is 373 billion dollars and per capita is $1793. You can check it yourself.
the numners you are looking are of 2019 which dropped down alot of the rupee crises in 2019 and then it catched up to its older or actually higher levels again. Comapiring with numbers from 2019 is not accurate.
@@saadwaheed465 - meanwhile India's GDP has grown to $3535 billion and Bangladesh's GDP has grown to $397 billion...
@@saadwaheed465 - feel free to compare the IMF GDP number of 2022... The story does not change!
@@atanumandal3586 Absolutely. After the massive devaluation Pakistan's numbers should be interesting.
Guests seems unprepared and confused regarding their topics
The participants are Mr. Atif Mian invited to Economic Advisor by IK the then PM but protests in Pakistan as he isn't a Sunni Muslim made him refuse. Mr. Arvind Subramanian was CE Advisor to Mr. Modi but turned anti Indian once his term wasn't renewed. What interest can audience have in their views.
👌👌👌👌🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Exactly ! Venoms spillage
this is the greatness of us hindus bro ...we listen to everything and take whatever is good ..let the haters hate ...they hate modi coz modi is making india strong the hate him coz he does not compromise and they will keep doing it ..what we need to do is to keep getting stronger so that we can defend ourselves.
So basically Atif Miyan was rejected by the fanatics in Pakistan. And Arvind being rejected by the fanatics in India (as 'anti national' because he criticizes the Supreme leader)..
PS: Arvind's tenure was extended, but he QUIT, and decided to leave for USA mid-term. There's no question of his tenure not being renewed.
Its the same with even pro-bjp economists like Panagariya, who left US and came to India to work for this govt, but went back. Even the last CEA (KV Subramaian) has left. Not a single intellectual sticks in this govt, because they have no power, no say in decisions.
A few minutes into the conversation, it just comes across why WW is having a discussion about Pakistan and India as it does not make sense. It should be Pakistan and Bangladesh and how they diverged!!
A layman's point of view about free trade with India :
Harley Davidson opened a dealership in my city, Hyderabad.
A number of German cars sell in India.So do Swedish, French ,Japanese and Korean cars.
With regards to restrictions on imports, US imposes dumping duties on steel from China . So, what is free trade in your eyes ?
Allowing the West to colonize & terrorize India once again is their idea of free trade.
Even when China does it, its still considered open. Its only a problem when India doe it. China has even stricter control over its data but that doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone. US was happily in bed with China.
Atif Mian is not welcome in Pakistan being a Ahmadia but still show his hatred towards Hindus in general !!
@Arup Ratan Mitra its a bot
We should remember the fact that yearly revenue from export of IT related industries is about 150 billion US dollar , which is significant achievement India has attained so far.
Yes, this figure is now at par with Saudi crude oil exports which was around 160 billion $ in 2021.
India’s merchandise exports were $400 billion and expected to touch 450 billion dollars this year
Not because of the government, but inspite of it. Situation changing nowadays with GOI wanting to ride on the "digital economy".
This Arvind guys stammering is nerve racking.
He should shed the yank and western gimmicks in the mic
Here is my layman's point of view: Unemployment has been a problem in India since 1960s.
The question is : what is unemployment ?
Right from 60s, colleges are churning out graduates who do not find enough white collar jobs.
In the rural India employment is getting better due to expanding irrigation.Rural productivity is much better today.Construction activity is leading the migration of semi skilled and unskilled people to the urban areas.
India producing English speaking parrot 🦜
I only watched half of the debate, as I again found the panelist biased assessment and not presenting the true pic of how Modi, trying to expand socialism to its real avatar, where all section really gets benefits and is trying to uplift them to so they can also make meaningful contribution to economy. Modi's vision is more inclusive collaboration where he is engaging with world for not only Indian benefits but also for everyone's benefits. His vision of Solar alliance, transitioning fast to a clean energy programs, brining hitech industry in India, boosting defense exports, PLI are all inclusive growth programs.
Socialism doesn't work.
Thanks.
Can't expect any unbiased intellectual conversation from individuals who are more agenda peddlers and less academicians (self certified)
Brother this is serious discussion by two world class economists, at WoodrowWilsonCenter. Not a WhatsApp discussion..
I can't make heads and tails of the meaningless gibberish you wrote. What the heck does all this mean?
What the heck does 'expanding socialism to its real avatar' mean?
What is 'inclusive collaboration where he is engaging with the world not only for Indian benefit but for everyone's benefits'?
What is 'brining hitech industry in India' ?
What is his socialism? Giving 2 free cylinders after which they have to pay for it themselves? Who pays for these socialist policies - is the money coming from sky? What about when kejriwal does the same for poor? And is the Modi govt socialist or fiscally prudent, plz decide and let me know.
And where is this inclusive development? Does it show in the economic figures anywhere?
Let me give you the facts :
- income inequality has INCREASED in India. Only Russia has a higher income inequality than India
- the percentage of billionaire wealth from crony industries has increased from 29% to 43%
- there has been reverse migration to the villages from cities (people moving back from cities to villages for the first time, because there are no jobs)
- manufacturing as % of GDP has steadily declined
- exports as % of GDP has steadily declined
@@mrgyani seethe + stay mad + cry more + based crony capitalism.
Notice the tone of the Indian guy being apologetic and humble while that of Pakistani guy’s being defensive, passive aggressive and accusatory.
In initial years Pakistan 🇵🇰 was heavily funded by America for geopolitics.
And Pk wasted that. US Money on militancy and Hate for India and CORRUPTION of the worst kind!
Guys , it is much simpler than the long winding lectures you have given. Pakistan was doing fine until they had US backing them with their funds. The moment they (US) pulled the rug from under their feet , they stand thoroughly exposed for the wonderful life they were having through easy money.
Nope, you are wrong !! As long as they hate mongering madrasa school you can expect the country will downward !!
Pakistan got addicted freebies.
Actually US didn’t pull, Pakistan pushed them while they did trust China. Why they did that, they thought they will have better bilateral dynamics. But China has swept away any competition in the market. Even Samsung is facing backlash, small controversy, permanent market for vivo.
Pakistan didn’t learn anything from its history.
That's because US turned Izlamophobic..... By Izlamophobic I mean US started demanding reciprocity.
With Izlam, reciprocity is Izlamophobia
Good post!
From 1947 to 1990 entire india was on sleep mode
1990 to 2014 few indians woke up
2014 onwards most indians woke up, but some are still sleeping
"Pakistan is an experiment "
---- Maulana Abul Kalam Azad
"Pakistan will be a laboratory"
---- Muhammad Ali Jinnah
Experiments don't run forever.
And sometimes they blow up the laboratory.
These eminent economists need to check the ILO report on Employment Trends from 2015 till the pandemic whem South Asia and especially India had the best performance on a worlwide basis in creating employment
Yhe Atamnirbhar doctrine or as these distinguished panelists prefer to muslabel as protection is solely aimed at reducing dependency on China ans mainly for strategic reasons
OK so you will teach the ex economic advisor of India the ILO numbers?
I am looking at an ILO graph, and India has consistently had higher unemployment than Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka since 2005. And it shot up in 2020. The gap hasn't reduced one bit.
Our unemployment was at a 45 yr high just before the 2019 election, and govt hid this report from NSSO before elections. Senior members of statistical commission had resigned in protest.
Data from CMIE puts the unemployment rate even higher than what is claimed officially.
@@mrgyani seriously. From 2015 to 2019 India had best performance in employment generation- check the ILO surveys of the years. This unemployment faje story has been further busted by KV Subramanian. Check his tweets over the last 3 days. He was the CEA till a few months ago.
@@dodiraj1 just before 2019 elections India's unemployment was at 40 year high. And the govt tried to hide this data by NSSO. Members of statical commission had resigned in protest.
Even right now according to CMIE we have high unemployment (but will need to verify once, don't quote me on it).
Better topic would be "Bangla Desh and Pakistan at 50 : A Tale of Two Divergent Economic Paths". India and Pakistan have very different cultures, one follows Hinduism, non-violence, betterment of all, self-reliance, science and technologies, elected democracy. On the other hand, Pakistan follow islam; trains, supports, sends terrorists to neighboring countries; spreads jihadism; tries to grab lands from neighbors - Iran, Afghanistan and India, Army runs civil govt. Moreover there is wide gap in population and area.
Better comparison is BanglaDesh and Pakistan - both are similar in religious practice, size, population, et al. Hope to see a debate on this topic.
Pakistan is mindset 75 years old, soon to perish on the sands of time.
Mother India is a Eternal continuous living GRAND CIVILISATION since time immemorial.
अस्तु....
Pakistanis are so obsessed with India's growth
That is because IN's growth effects PK badly. The more IN grows - the more insecure PK feels.
India should remain India.Just like another country. Recently it was troubled by Pakistani terror. And each country should be left to manage its own affairs.
India moving with it's own momentum.. people are behind India's growth not politicians..
Atmanirbhar in Hindi translates to self reliance not protectionism
Intellectually dishonest for Atif to throw his unnecessary comments on Modi in there, when the conversation did not ask for it. The Indian speaker did not counter or correct him either which is even more appalling. Pakistan has the reputation of still being the number 1 state sponsored terror factory on the planet- everyone knows that. How much Koolaide has atif actually drunk??? Please don't invite such speakers in the future, Your own reputation is at stake. The Quality of the guests in other think tank discussions is pretty high. This has been on the lower end to be honest.
classic case of apologetic approach of Indian so called academicians ....so wary of belittling the other side .... American Dream for their kids ....Wow.... Darwaza hamesha andar se khula hai
Who are these jokers? Can't even hide the bias. Shame!
Again as expected Atif brings in Indo-Pak relations in a purely economic discussion, justifies partition due to population incompatibility but also says common culture etc. etc.. Why dichotomy is not seen by him? Possibly natural for him. He is alarmed by polarisation on the Indian side today, does he not see what Pak has been doing all these years? Where are the roots of this, has he ever thought of it? I’m also alarmed by it. But asking nobody in particular to do something about it looks to me as if he is trying to say India is responsible for the deteriorating situation. Please try to look in an unbiased manner and ask specific people to do what they must. On the economic front every group tries to protect and promote its interests, so do the rich. It’s for the policy makers to balance it out and ensure environment for collective progress is created.
Us takle ko Khan na khud nikal diya Ahmediya hai isliye or Huma Polarisation ka gyaan de rha hai.
he is a mulla (even though literate), what else you expect from him?
You clearly, clearly don't know Atif Mian.
@@arunsar7893 yep, he is a literate mulla but he is a mulla.
@@FirstLast-fj1yp I don't talk to communal bots. Please excuse.
Following points also need to be considered:
. Religion
. Nationalism
. Leadership
. Diversity
. Corruption
. Duel citizenship
. Kashmir
Was India better off that the Indo-Pak-Bangla split happened ? It reduced the number of south asian muslims. Since this particular minority is inordinately regressive and oppressive ?
Indias trajectory is outstanding especially under PM Modi whose vision is reshaping the future of the people of India.
No data suggests that. India has been generally doing well since 1991 after the economy opened up. Poverty reduction accelerated during the UPA era.
What is worrying is, some states including some of the Southern States, Gujarat, Delhi are doing quite well, laggards like Bihar, UP, WB are in perennial decline. If some of the backward states fire up, Indias number would start improving rapidly.
It’s not because of Modi but because of the way India has started on such a strong foundation. It’s because of our founding fathers and their policies which happened in the first 50 years, we are beginning to see the fruits now. For ex, Our non alignment stand has helped today’s Foreign minister talk with his head held high in the international forums.The fruits of What Modi is doing today will be seen 20 years hence. That’s how the growth is measured.
As an indian why i have to carry the burden of being compared to Pakistan always. cant we just move on. i mean many thing happened in 1947 world over. its okay if Pakistan also happened to get its independence in the same year.
how is this a "burden" to you? what prevents *you* from moving on? is this burden slowing down poverty reduction in India? or does it just hurt your wanting to feel superior?
Amaresh nothin superior abt it.. indians dnt want to be compared to army, dictator confused islamic democracy state. Same as we dnt want to be compared to communist china..and here china is better on many parameters..still we dnt want to b compared coz india is different and unique
Insulting to compare the two. One is just about the most important rising power in the world and the other is a failed state which poses a threat just by its mere existence. Shame- this could have been such an enlightening conversation if facts were actually addressed. The speakers were a very poor choice. You could have got some one from a reputable think tank or an actual foreign policy expert or even an actual economist who has intellectual integrity. Instead of 2 people with baggage and were both rejected in their respective governments. Shocking.
Why are we comparing with Pakistan . This year pakistan grew at 0.29 percent against a population growth of 2.48%. I am more worried refugees might start following towards India.
I agree with Dr.Mian that looking at military expenditure in isolation is reductive, but the cost of the military's domination in Pk is much more than the military budget; it distorts the basic orientation of the state, from economic prosperity, and people's welfare, towards security. That said, the size of the budget itself is not immaterial. The examples of South Korea and the US are not equivalent in crucial ways; the US was already an economic powerhouse when it ramped up military expenditure in WWII, and Korean security was always explicitly underwritten by the US, the Koreans did not shoulder this burden alone. Also, in spite of similar historic animosity, the US umbrella ensured Korea was deeply linked to the regional economic engine i.e. Japan. The cost of military domination in Pk is a very damaging economic divorce from what is the largest regional economy by far.
And, if I may add, in fact since there were so many soldiers fighting in WWII, the need for labor brought an entire generation of American women into the manufacturing industry to manufacture military supplies and in the economy in general for all kinds of manufacturing and services jobs where men were not available. So, it created an even more positive impact on the American economy, unlike the Pakistani military which has really skewed Pakistan's political and economic structure and viewpoint.
AAPKO apni fauj Mubarak ho, bhai!
Enjoy the fruits of a large and wasteful Army that is capable of minding every business in Pakistan except its own.
Whatever aid Pakistan was getting it get siphoned off to the retired dual citizen homes either in Canada or Britain. Canada has now become the second home for retired Pakistani generals.
@JPREET Dhillon
Why do have a fake Punjabi Sikh identity if you are Pakistani?
To spread lies, that's why!
chinese millitary are indulged in business like huawaei and pakistani counterparts are doing scams like DHA which gets flooded every monsoon
Pakistan has good growth in 70's and 80"s due to military outsourcing
No. It was the generous free funding by Uncle Sam.
This happen when you feed, support, fund terrorist's. There is God, your God.
Speaker from India is completely confused
In the 80s and 90s, going abroad, we used to find every day use consumer goods, that were produced in India, pakistan, bangladesh, vietnaam, thailand and cutting edge electronics were produced in JAPAn. after 2000s all the products that are being sold in europe and rest of west is produced in CHINA. WHich shows lot of trade loss form the developing countries.
The Pakistani analyst is a joke. He is ok with Imran khans popularity but has issues with Modi’s popularity.
Why does he keep saying Hindu rate of growth? I know it was an old term used but why has slow growth been attributed to religion? Sub Saharan Africa is mostly Christian. Why no term for “African Christian” rate of growth. Has Afghanistan or Pakistan’s economic turmoil been coined as a “Muslim rate of growth”?? Funnily in India Hindu fertility rate is much lower than Muslim fertility rate but no religion based generalisation such as “Muslim birth rate”can be made because its “communal” and a nuanced discussion which looks at region by region is required 🙄I am not justifying labelling I just find it offensive that our community must stomach generalisations that other communities escape, just because we don’t riot or cause trouble when our religion offended unlike……..
It was debate between two and half Pakistani vs Half Indian. No appreciation, understanding of Indian economic, political achievements inspite of size , diversity and social complexity.
This discussion is bit off the mark with regards to India. Atmanirbhar in defence production of finished products not only sustains itself insulating against foreign blackmailing but also act as another potential driver of high value export (Brahmos etc). Same true for semiconductors, green energy equipment, health products(vaccine, drugs) and others. NM is proindia business (thanks madam) and it isn't a bad strategy. Bilateral FTAs will help.
Am watching this video now after 8 month ...while one of minister from pak say "we are bankrupt nation"
Indias trajectory is outstanding especially under PM Modi whose vision is reshaping the future of the people of India- Let us look at some fact
1-India become 5th largest Economy from 11 in 2014 in terms GDP and 3rd in PPP,
2- 141 medical colleges in 8 years compare 154 medical colleges 67 years of congress rules
3- 5.5 lakh optical fiber covering 3 lakh villages while in 67 years of congress only 369 kms covering only 59 villages
4- 4.03 Lakh Magawatt power production increased now in 8 years while on 2014 it was 2.43 lakh megawatt so almost double
5. from 1991-96 and 2004 -2014 , in 15 years congress built only 24 K roads while BJP govt 51K Kms highways just in 8 years
How any one can have any logical and rational talk without mentioning how pakistan have adopted radicalization, terrisam and hinddu hate as their national policy......You will find madressa at every corner in pakistan and all they do is how to prove that we did smart thing by converting to mullagiri and how every one is scheming against us mulla because we are such a visionary people.
oh and you've been to pakistan haven't you?
Highly acclaimed experts panel. Sanjay raised excellent pertinent questions. Experts summarized 75 years of issues within 15 minutes each. Remarkable! I learned a lot in 1& 1/2 hours. Thanks to Wilson Center.
You have successfully ended up getting the most skewed picture of India's economy as well as the reason for Pakistan's downturn
After considerable reflection on Dr. Mian's comments about the military's role (or lack thereof) in Pakistan's chronic economic malaise, I think his reasoning is not quite sound. The comparison with American military spending makes little sense. The US is a premier economic and technological power, and enters all of its military programs with a position of overwhelming military and economic strength. Pakistan's case is very different. It's military objectives are against a much bigger power, and seek to change the status quo. This is a very difficult objective in very difficult conditions, and therefore pulls in substantial resources from Pakistan's development activities.
While Dr. Mian's analysis and reasoning regarding elite behavior makes a lot of sense, he is seriously downplaying the much bigger and more important role the military has played.
Very mature response by Arvind, “polarisation in one part will enhance polarisation in other”. That is a serious question to be pondered over by every citizen of the sub-continent, rather than listening to religious and political interests citizens need to take the front seat here and decide their future. We are human beings seeking good life, God by whatever name, didn’t send us to fight and kill each other. He/She doesn’t even want us to promote their name and interests, S/He is too powerful to look after Himself or Herself.
Why do we even need to Compare India with Pakistan. Even Afghanistan is better than Pakistan.
India is definitely growing but it's not enough. We need to work more on Public Infrastructure and AI.
We should see how China went ahead of us and what can we learn from them.
I believe the future for India will be bright ✨✨✨
People Before 1947: Long live Pakistan.
People in 2023: Run away alive from Pakistan. 😀😃😄😁😅😆
Typical, the anchor an apologist and uncomfortable in his skin of an Indian and a Hindu, while a panellist from the other side justifies whatever could be wrong for his favourite side without referring to any data or logic. Anyway, interesting discussion, most of it unbiased and analytical. Well done WilsonCentre.
Interesting observation!
Now, this is an intellectual debate. Everyone is respectful to each other, dealing with differences in a very polite and educational manner, talking with facts instead of hearsay or relying on any sort of gossip.
Top 10 Countries by GDP in 2030 as per a Report by Standard Chartered:-
1. China: $64.2 trillion
2. India: $46.3 trillion
3. US: $31 trillion
4. Indonesia: $10.1 trillion
5. Turkey: $9.1 trillion
6. Brazil: $8.6 trillion
7. Egypt: $8.2 trillion
8. Russia: $7.9 trillion
9. Japan: $7.2 trillion
10. Germany: $6.9 trillion
Whatttttt🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Seems fishy. 5 trillion by 2030 is India’s goal
@@keerthisureshseelam agree
which pot uve been smoking mate?
@@EoamerGaming97 - Niyazi pot!
People before 1947 : Pakistan Zindabad.
People in 2023 : Pakistan se zinda Bhaag.
Atif conversation was very intelligent and real economics. We can right quantitative equation from his conversation. Mr Arvind conversation was more like history class
Are they really comparing India's economy with Pakistan's. Irony died a thousand deaths. 🤣
India had no investment taking place when FTA was promoted in 2005\6…This need to be reversed the reason FTA was revoked and now with various countries India is doing trade agreement taking place. Now investment is taking place in manufacturing to global volume level and say after 5 years or so India may start joining FTA
I wish he could have countinued as finance advisor, what a pity we can't utilities few best of us around the world. Great salute to you Sir Atif.
Pakistan should not compare it with India. Pakistan should compare it with bangladesh, Indonesia, brazil, Nigeria, Egypt, Ethopia, congo , Philippines, mexico vietnam. These countries have somewhat comparable population to pakistan. Moreover, Obsession of kashmir and Afghanistan should be over. Rather security, economy should be prioritized, India is not stupid to attack any country that can retaliate with nuclear war heads. Land reforms opening economy, opening trade route for India to central asia must be used for economic and political dividends.
😂😂😂😂 best of all comments...compare these stupid minds calling themselves a country with some others although those others will raise serious objections to it too like us .. Bangaldesh, Indonesia and Brazil certainly will 🤣🤣
Thanks for this excellent discussion with open minded speakers
Good Propaganda & fake narratives by Wilson Center
I am quite perplexed and surprised at the level of ignorance the Pakistani speaker has on India specially on two things:
1. He calls Nehru a Dynast. Come on this is utter ignorance. If India is still a democracy its only because of policies initiated and implemented by the first democratically elected government of India under the prime ministership of Jawaharlal Nehru. It is Nehru who established India's democratic institutions and he institutionalised the democratic culture through his long 17 year tenure as Prime Minister. He never groomed Indira to be his successor. Infact Indira was airdropped as a compromise candidate by the then congress leadership after the death of Nehru's successor Sri Lalbahadur Shastri and she was famously known as The Gungi Gudiya (dumb puppet) in the initial years. It is infact after the advent of Indira Gandhi that the Nehru family became the real Dynasts in all practical sense.
2. Second he calls Modi an authoritarian. Come on this is another nonsense. Whether you like it or not Modi is an immensely popular, smart, politically suave, democratically elected Prime Minister of India not once but twice and may be thrice if the trend continues. Modi is no authoritarian. His decisions can never be authoritarian because India is so diverse in all sense with diverse interests, pulls and pushes. No authoritarian regime can survive in the Indian society at its current level of maturity. So Modi is leading by consensus. Ofcourse Modi has so many opponents and detractors but he can never lead Indian society by authoritarianism. Domestic Indian politics may be different. In the domestic Indian democratic oposition politics you may call some body as an Authoritarian or a dictator for scoring political points. But that doesnt mean that he is actually an authoritarian. An outsider should never confuse with what is happening inside within the domestic Indian politics, which is a different ballgame altogether. Despite the opposition, He is there in that leading position because he is delivering what he has promised or atleast people believe that he can deliver what he is promising. So long as that trust is there he will continue to lead.
This shows how skewed an opinion even the Pakistani intellectuals have about India, its society and its leadership. May be it may have something to do with the years of academic distortions or indifference encouraged in Pakistani society when it comes to India.
Biased Analysis..How can a country which has just signed Free trade agreements with Australia and UAE and is on verge of signing it with Canada, Israel and UK..Is it difficult to digest that India is inward looking. Besides, India's self reliance is focussed on reducing over dependence on supply chains, and focussing on integrating itself to the supply chains. How is India inward looking??
When anyone starts this rhetoric myth that Pakistan is poor because Pakistan was given larger military compared to India, it is just a laugh joke and point to feel ashamed for any Pakistani like me. This statement just show that Pakistan’s leaders including the father figures like Jinna were so dumb that they did not have any plan whatsoever and it also gives credit to the theory that Jinna and Muslim league were created to create Pakistan for the west’s ulterior motives - and till today, Pakistan’s civil military rulers have proved that ulterior motives right by becoming a rental state to western powers - while India as a country and nation state has proved its worth in global affairs.
What a funny term "Hindu rate of Growth"? Should we refer Pakistan as "Muslim rate of Growth" and Rwanda as "Christian rate of Growth"?
Actually westerners used that term to show hindus in a low light
Am indian but hats off to Atif . He is better than Arvind aa economist . Clarity of thought and better understanding of problem
I did not liked your discussion
But I listened carefully and very happy that you peoples directly and Iindirect remembered Great PM of INDIA N.D. MODI
Sir Madam
The main reason of change.
The IIT and similar institutes contribute
to the world economy last 50 years or so.
Atif is wrong . The main problem of Pakistan is its military. The military spending in pakistan, takes a huge chunk of the budget that could have been put in development and education and agriculture so that pak could be self reliant. They could have progressed like Bangladesh. As far as Kashmir goes, it was declared an independent nation in 1947. Suddenly the pak army attacked it and started looting, raping( similar to Bangladesh situation). Raja Hari Singh sought Indian intervention and became a part of India. Even UN recognizes that and the condition of plebiscite is that Pakistan removes its army first from Kashmir. This is history. Now at present the army uses the Kashmir excuse to drain all development money. The generals have palaces while the common man has no food. Now for trade, what can pakistan trade? Again why should India want to trade with Pak. Actually indian goods are sold to pak through Dubai. So why bother. India doesn't need pakistan, whatever Atif says. It's the other way around . India has helped all its neighbours in time of crisis. But as Jayshankar said all we got was terrorism in return. So no, India should not start trade with Pakistan. India did try to be nice. Gave it most favoured nation status, pakistan didn't reciprocate. We did amaan ki asha and then Kargil happened. Then it was IK who stopped trade. So no, India is the 5th largest economy in the world, don't compare it with Pakistan.
An absorbing and nuanced discussion on the factors behind the different trajectories of India, Pakistan's economies. All I understood from Atif Mian is , to suggest that the disproportionate Military expenditure has caused the economic stagnation. While there is no denying there are other factors too, he sounded a bit justifying the military spending. I wish he had come forth more clearly on this count.
Nope, you are wrong !! As long as they hate mongering madrasa school you can expect the country will downward !!
Yes, he was justifying it. He never said it was bad. He said, there is no evidence to suggest military spending in Pakistan was bad. He gave examples of US and Korea which also had high military spending and it turned out OK for them..
What to do , if he doesn't do that entire islamic Republic of Pakistan will be at his door step to do halala with his Ahmadi ammi khala and convert them from murtad to momina 😂😂
he has got lot of land in paxtaan and he wants to no harm to him and his investments.
I'm really surprised at the comments being made learned panel on slowing of India's growth in last decade.
The panel needs to comprehend & understand that india has learnt lessons in Covid & later Russia-ukraine issue and further strengthens the path taken by India in last 6-7 years.
India is a large domestic consumption economy and world will have to come to India and do business which suits India and is sustainable in long term for India.
The panel would do good to listen to Jaishanker & understand India's stance.
Outstanding event organised by the Wilson centre, very informative and informed analysis from a very strong panel of analysts.
Arvind subramaniam spewing lot of non sense. The ww centre should have invited someone else
The main issue of pakistan/difference with India
- early death of Jinnah & absolute failure at leadership level to take new country forward.
- Continuance of feudalism in Pakistan
- Above both, giving chance to Pakistan army to come in.
- Pakistan sitting in laps of US and being used for US interests.
- Duo of Bhutto & Yahya khan breaking pakistan , radicalization of pakistan - Zia ul haq
- Pakistan Army capitalizing on this and coming to power directly or indirectly.
- Sharifs & IK Niazi continue to be puppets of same army.
- weakening & absolute no rise of institutions.
- Catch 22 sutuation now and habit of surviving on loans with no intention of closure of loans.
- Nuclear country is on rent.
- insurgency (Balochistan, KPK, Sindh etc ).
- Economy etc wont help.
- only solution : disintegration of Pakistan into another 4 parts like Bangladesh. No other way.
- there is no way India will gain by engaging with your country and no need to change any status Mr Atiq.
Obsession towards Kashmir followed by promotion of terrorism in india 🇮🇳 and use of terrorism as source of power ruined Pakistan....
Also I feel insulted when you people compare Pakistan with us
BJP's policy towards Pak is dramatically different to previous governments. They see Pak as a permanent adversary, and would prefer a politically, economically and diplomatically weak Pakistan.
Pakistan army considers its population as a permanent adversary 🤣🤣
Nope , they want a permanent solutiona and treatment for them ..
Not as adverse country
Lol isn't that how Pakstan wants India?
I love Atif Mian. We are proud of you Sir. He has hit the nail at the right spot. As for Urdu speaking, something that people do not know there has been a lot of integration of the community into the Pakistani population due to intermarriage and social comingling etc. The current generation of Urdu speaking are not really like there forefathers. They are now more Pakistani than there other brethren. Hats off to Prof. Atif Mian again.
atif mian is disgusted in pakistan just cus he is an ahmedi thats how pathetic it is
Almost 98% of muslim population in the Indian subcontinent (India, Pak, Bangladesh, Myanmar) think religion is their priority over their country.
Overall summary is that India shouldn't be too smug about their achievements and strive for better and higher. Pakistan is doomed anyway, so that comparison is futile.