Maybe Daniel needs to take a set of stock lifter and add an oil grove so the rollers get lubed properly. If that works Daniel. Then you will have people pounding down your door for the improved lifters. 😊❤
WOW, over the years I have watched literally every video on RUclips about the “Hemi tick” and the hemi lifter/ cam issues, and every video was long and made by Hemi and Mopar experts and none of those videos were satisfying nor even had pen-pointed the issue… now here comes Mr. Powell with the very best video on the subject, effortlessly diagnosing the problem and explaining it to where a child could make sense of it…. And you’re not even a Mopar head!!! You explaining the oiling system was awesome. I’m in shock that they oil the lifter last with the oil coming *from* the pushrod. How backwards is that!?!? 👏👏👏 Bravo
UTG had the same observation. I really never realized mopars feed lifters through the pushrods, despite owning a dodge with 318 long enough to tear the top end down for a burned valve. Other than that, the 318 ran good and mileage was fantastic. Drove that thing around a long time.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259the magnums feed the lifters through a gallery. They use AMC type lifters, even if they are roller. The magnums don't have a shaft rocker, it's pedestal rockers like hydraulic 302/351.
I retired from Chrysler after over 35 years as a tech. I have replaced untold numbers of cams and lifters in these engines, and yes, most were in fact police package cars. The oiling system is passable on everyday and traffic driving, but the police cars sit and idle on the side of the highways for hours at a time, then jump on the throttle when they start a chase. The extended idling makes for a low oil feeding to the valvetrain and the sudden load of a full throttle launch makes for a low oil presence situation on the lifters and cam. The results are obvious, and well documented all over the media. Your brief and spot on accurate description here is one of the best and easiest to comprehend examples I've seen anywhere.
my hemi ram pickup has 20K miles on it.. its 2 years and a few months old.. I have spent hours and hours idling it as during covid it was my mobile office when I couldnt use my monile office bus.. and it has the dreaded Hemi tick... at 20K miles.. with lots of idling... the truck has never pulled a trailer a day in its life.. its hauled a few loads of firewood and parts for my restoration bus projects but really light use... and it ticks at startup really loud and then is a mild tick the rest of the time.. my 1978 School bus with an Inernational 392 thats never been aparthas a quieter engine...
As a machinist myself I must say it would appear that the problem isn't necessarily the engineers but the circumstances they have to deal with such as variable valve timing. maintaining pressure so that the variable valve timing works otherwise the EPA isn't going to allow the engine out there etc etc basically regulation ruined this engine.
My new friend, you are awesome at explaining and teaching, thank you for your expertise.Ive been wrenching for a long time been to many machinists, and i would be proud to have you as my machinist. Richard.
After watching your video and listening to your explanation it's no surprise these lifters are failing. Thank you for continuing to post some of the most informative and helpful content on this platform. Wishing you and your family good health and fortune in the New Year to come.
I have a cleveland that had a rocker fail thr beat up the lifter. I reached out to get a new set and they came with a slot from the hole down to the gallery slot. It looked like drill drift. The shop im using said they were trash. I called the maker and he said that clevelands don't get the oil they need up top and this helps. So when you mentioned the slot down to the roller.. the light went on. Love this! I feel like I'm in shop class
Almost 40 years as a dodge Tech. This is the best, most accurate discussion on this very common issue. I never understood why dodge would allow a problem to continue that started in 2005 with the first 3rd gen hemis. It would seem to me an engineering fix is possible to fix this silly issue. Excellent diagnosis!
The local machinist that has been doing all of my work (turning cranks, etc.) didn't go into such detail, but in a nutshell told that the oiling system is trash/a poor design. Thank you for breaking it down and showing every little nuance as to why it's so bad.
I had a 2004 Ram 1500 that collapsed two lifters when I started it up. Still under warranty and the dealer replaced the heads, then set the electronic governor to 1500 rpm in park. They implied that I was revving it up and racing. I’ve since sold it and bought a 2005 Ram 2500 with 5.9 Cummins. I’m happy now.
Excessive idle time seems to be the number one killer on these. They do get some splash oil once the rpm comes up around 2K but if it's sitting there at idle for 30-40 mins they get dry. Also Melling has a hard coat anodized HV oil pump that is supposed to be way better than the OEM pumps and it may help hide the issue. I say hide because more oil isn't really fixing it.. I agree something needs done about the lifter design it's self. That all being said... I still love my Hemi's :)
@IhateRUclips That's what I've always told people. That and making sure to keep the oil topped up and changed regularly. I've got well over 200,000miles on my 2011 Durango Hemi and it's still going strong but then I'm a 20-30min drive each way to work. A solid 10 mins of that I'm going 50mph. It gets a chance to run at full operational temperature and burn off all the moisture and crap.
@@eurbanautotech My 2011 SRT8 Challenger is at 90K right now. I installed the blower myself at 42k miles. I change the oil every 6K with Mobil1 0-40 Euro Car Spec. I don't idle it excessively and MDS has basically never been used since I am always in Auto Stick mode and when I did the blower I disabled MDS in the tune. So far so good! I doubt mine will go 200K making 650 at the wheels. I will probably be doing a 426 block at some point in the future... So if Daniel has an updated lifter by that time, I will go that route plus that Melling Hard Anodized HV Oil Pump too. Extra insurance :) My 04 Ram (Non MDS) went 150K before I had to take it off the road due to rust. The Hemi was still going strong.
Thanks Daniel, Thats just a crazy way to get oil in a lifter. I was not aware it was done that way. Todays vehicles have way more miles on them. Worn out rockers and shafts would obviously lead to lifter problems. Thanks for the video lesson !!!
This is exactly why I would rather have an old school 426 hemi. Have to remember that 105 degree angle in rush hour stop and go adds to the low pressure with bad geometry problems just daily driving.
I believe your thinking is correct, good explanation. I was looking at a diagram of the hemi oiling system and I had an idea. I'm older than you and remember my friends who ran fords in the 60's-70's at the dragstrip sometimes plugged the factory oil passages and ran internal or external tubes to feed the rocker shafts directly from a main passage and also to keep more oil flowing into the cam bearings and lifters. Chrysler seemed to make a simple system more complicated. Good video
Good stuff and good attitude. Where you are sure you say so; where you are not sure you say so. You have good knowledge but also admit you don't know it all. Well done. Keep it up. Retired mechanic/machinist in Land Down Under.
After watching several videos on this topic, I think you and Uncle Tony's garage are spot on. I believe your groove idea is great. Granted some engineering and testing needs to be done to see how effective it is. Should there be one groove at the top center, or I also had the idea of one on each side closer to the ends of the roller to bring the oil closer to the edges. This would also require less oil in the galley before it flowed through... if that makes sense. My 2010 Charger is at the point of misfire, so I know it's bad, it's only a point of WHEN I can either have the work done or do it myself. I will be replacing the oil pump with a Melling high volume pump to help prevent this issue, but even that's on back order and may not be available until after January, so the car will be sitting in the carport for a while.
Thank you! I do not know much about the Hemi Engine but I did know that there is a problem with worn cam lobes. After your explanation it is very obvious why there would be problems! Thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights I appreciate it! 👍💯
Great analysis. I had no idea. I ignorantly thought they worked the way almost all other engines work. Thank you for doing the research in a thoughtful and methodical way that anyone can follow. Happy New Year!
I've owned Hemi's since 2003. I no longer let them idle. Idling kills them. That and I use a liter of diesel grade oil at each oil change. I think, my personal opinion, what helps is having some EP ingredients in the oil. But yes, I agree, lack of oil splash/oil starvation is the root of the problem. Also, they eat pushrods, probably due to the startup items you mentioned.
I’ve only done a couple with a locked up roller and a lobe gone on the cam and never really had a chance to look how it works. Makes more sense now. But the ones I did do I soaked the lifters and put the pushrods in oil and cranked the engine over till oil was coming up to the rockers because it all looked funky to me and I wasn’t taking any chances. But I can tear down a camaro/corvette (LS3) to do a cam swap in about 5 hours and the first 5.7 hemi I did in 2.5hours. I was like damn I wish we did more of these.
Hello. I like your work and videos. I've rebuilt several of these hemi's. If I had the resources, I would drill out the oil tube casting galley area and install small nozzles to spray the oil upward towards the cam lobes. I believe that would be the cure for the lifter failures problem. Oiling from the push rods down is the first thing I discovered and hated from the first one I ever rebuilt. Have a great day and a happy New Year!
Again, great analysis. One thing is that I've heard you say "oil gallery" many times and it tweaked my ears because of the second word. I'm 61 and rebuilt my first SBC at 16. I guess I first heard or read it as "oil galley" and then probably heard it repeated like that or read it like that numerous times. Some research proves that my instinct was wrong. It's "oil gallery," as you say. Although I pronounce "oil" quite a bit differently than you do. LoL, But that's neither here nor there. I learn quite a bit on your channel! Thanks!
I’ve heard it pronounced “oilyul” mostly from up north. Southerners usually pronounce it “oil” without the extra syllable. Not saying one is correct and the other wrong. Just different.
I heard from a trusted source / friend who’s a die-hard Mopar guy that was very much “in the loop” back when the Gen.III Hemi and the 4.7 were being developed to replace the old LA / Magnum engines that the Gen-3 Hemi was supposed to be a DOHC design when they started development but eventually they modified it to a cam-in-block pushrod setup instead for packaging and cost reasons instead. He never mentioned the issues with lifter oiling that you mention here but if what he says is true then the whole “top down” valvetrain oiling design you showed us here makes a lot more sense….if that top end oil gallery and supply holes were originally designed to feed oil to cam journals and hydraulic lash adjusters up top it seems like it would work pretty well. Sending the oil through the rocker shafts then back down the push rods to the lifters is definitely an unconventional and inefficient way of doing it, and like you mentioned the placement of the “tube” for top end oiling blocking much of the splash lubrication the cam and lifter rollers would usually get just compounds the problem. It’s definitely an interesting issue to think on.
*I remember someone mentioning that it costed Mopar more to produce the 4.7 SOHC than the Hemi.* So maybe that is why they got rid of the 4.7 I had a 4.7 in a Dakota and a Durango. I thought they were pretty good for the small size. Stock turned 6k and with a SC Tuner it redlined at 7k (it ran out of power before the 7k upper limit). Now with a Hemi Jeep I am wondering why my redline is like 5800 or whatever. Feels like my Hemi wants to rev more but instead slams into that lame limiter. I am wondering how high they can safely go (stock) if I got a tuner.
Well I've often heard people say "oh you shouldn't mess with the standard set up, the manufacturer knows best" Yeah it's true the manufacturer may actually know best, but knowing best and doing the best are two different things. Manufacturers do all kinds of crazy, poorly engineered things for all kinds of reasons, they don't necessarily have performance and longevity in mind. It's great to see a simple, straightforward analysis of one of these crazy things they have done.
I sure am glad I ran across Powell Machine Inc...Because all I want to hear is the TRUTH...and apparently that's what were gonna get. Thank you for taking the time to educate the novice and the so called smarty pants alike. I will be a regular viewer.
Great content. I think focusing on the design differences between earlier gen 3 hemis years 04-08 Vs the 09- to current would be the first place to start. The earlier hemis did not have this problem. You explain some of the differences in this video. And all which probably lend to lower Idle oil pressure on the later hemis causing high rates of failures to cam and lifters.
I was just wondering that myself. I’ve got a 2020 rebel with the 5.7. At hot idle my RPM sits at 525-550 at best and 31 psi oil pressure. I’m curious what the factory idle RPM was on those early models? The early engines also used a different oil pump. I left a comment up top with a thought about not being able to find any examples of a bad lifter in a 6.2 hellcat engine. The 6.2 has a higher volume oil pump, and I imagine that the RPM is probably a little higher at idle. I wonder if that increased flow managed to properly feed the lifter the required oil to keep it from going bad?
Thank you for sharing your video. I’m working on my first hemi, non MDS. I saw this video first and then the comp cams lifters, that I ordered, just came in. I was eager to open the box and see what they look like. Kind of disappointing. The lifters have that wide groove but there is not any resemblance of any oiling hole. Aside from the roller, The whole body is solid.
Hey Daniel, great info on these Hemi's, of which I own one. I've watched another Dodge Tech's RUclips channel (Reignited - Cycle and Automotive) and Skylar has mashed this topic out quite a bit. His conclusion is that it is low oil pressure, especially when idling for extended periods of time...like in service vehicles, which causes the majority of problems with lifters. He states that the 6.2 Hellcat engines are not suffering lifter failures, like the 5.7's and the 6.4's. He's narrowed the culprit to the oil pump. The 5.7 and 6.4 share the same pump, but the 6.2 Hellcat engine has a thicker rotor in its pump. He goes on to show how a Hellcat pump, or the Moroso high-volume replacement unit, provides MUCH higher pressure at idle speeds. Some of the weaker pumps are indicating only about 18psi at idle. If your theory on the oiling circuit is accurate then that would explain the lack of proper oil getting to the lifters & rollers at idle. My 5.7 idles at ~35PSI so I'm lucky to have a "good" pump and, according to my latest Blackstone Labs oil analysis, I have no metal or contaminates in my oil. I also have a 6-speed Challenger, so no MDS. Believe it or not, I change my full-synthetic Castrol oil once per year. I only put about 8000 miles on it annually. I also use Wix XP filters exclusively. My car just rolled 83000 on the odometer. You and Sky should collaborate on the subject. Being a Dodge tech, he can validate your explanation of the oiling circuit.
29 years as a Mopar dealer Technician here and I have to say you're not correct as to how the MDS lifter is activated. Oil presser to the lifter bore activates the MDS lifters and pushes the buttons in on the sides of the lifter, deactivating the lifter. The opposite of the LS. The problem with the Hemi is three fold. First is low quality roller bearings material used by the lifter supplier. The needles will just flake apart till they are gone. Then beat the cam to death. Chrysler came out with an updated lifter because of this with larger needles. Second is with long idling of the engine and the MDS system not being activated feeding oil to the side of the lifters and cooling the roller on the lifter with excess oil . The non MDS engines do feed oil to side of the lifters all the time and still have lifter failures but far less than the MDS equipped engines. Third is the MDS lifter it self. The lifter when the MDS is activated relies on a light spring inside the lifter to keep the rest of it's valve trains lash tight. But when this spring starts weakening it can't keep the roller on the lifter in constant contact with the cam. So the roller is bouncing on the cam beating it's self to death. As far as oil splash Chrysler says the that oil splash or lack of splash has no effect on the cam and lifter life. As there is more than adequate lubrication under normal driving condition. So is idling for hours normal? Chrysler says no.( I'm not saying I totally agree with Chrysler on that statement.) Personally I think more oil would be better. I have had Hemi's in my bay with 300k miles and never been apart. They always changed the oil on time. And most of them have their foot in it all the time. And I have some that idle for hours at a time and never see very many highway miles and they are the ones that are most likely to have problems... Keep up the videos! I enjoy them.
Thanks for your VERY helpful reply. I really appreciate it! I have a 2016 Dodge Durango R/T with 67k miles on the the 5.7 liter non-MDS engine. Oil and filter changes every 5k to 7k miles with Shell Rotella 5W-20 full synthetic oil and Mobil 1 oil filters. Unfortunately, it has developed lifter noise. Given your above reply, and that my engine is non-MDS, it sounds like the only suspected culprit is the substandard roller bearings in the lifters.
In my opinion the next progression is to start calling aftermarket lifter companies and ask for a face to face meeting. Well before phone calls I'd patent a either repair or upgrade lifter design then go to the lifter companies to start prototyping new lifter for testing and redesigning and testing and so on. Great breakdown though!!!
How about cutting a .010”-.020” groove in the lifter bore from the bottom of the bore to the gallery like we used to do with old solid flat tappet builds? Groove the bores to drop oil onto the wheel/cam interface… I’ve still got a tool to do it by hand…
I think Uncle Tonys Garage did a vid on the Hemi cam problem, if I remember right they moved the cam up in the block and is now shrouded from getting enough splash lube. Its a good vid.
Finally someone talks about the big stupid oil galley they cast into the center of the block that starves the cam of splash oil. I’ve contemplated an EDM hole in the bottom of the lifter body to spray oil directly on the roller.
I still remember leak down testing all GM lifters with Kent Moore specific setup and then knowing every lifters was primed, we never had any ticking issues back then as you would pick up a faulty one before it went in, we would do this for just about every make of engine and lifter eventually as failure rate was zero with this method for lifters and cams, also the quality aspect of starting engine with no ticking noises was an expectation put on use as was starting first time with no backfires and idling correctly as it was also and expectation that if you put cam and lifters in you would time the distributor correctly too .
I sure hope someone makes a better aftermarket lifter an thanks for the info on the oiling system that is a bad design compared to others that should be getting oil before the top for sure an I'm definitely interested n seeing more hemi content
I have a 2005 Ram 1500 4x4 with the 5.7. I purchased this truck new in January of 2006 with 8 miles on the odometer. For the first 30k miles I used conventional oil { non synthetic} and changed it every 5k miles. When I made the change to synthetic, I chose Royal Purple 5w20 for the seal properties. I am telling you folks all this to make this point. My original engine has 430k miles and I still drive it everyday. Most folks that hear this say that I just got lucky a received a "good" one. This truck still has the original starter. I do not let it idle excessively, other than 5 or so minutes in the am. My question is, could my success be coming from my choice in motor oil?
Taking care of stuff goes a long way, my 89 Silverado had 300k when I sold it, ran great, my shop truck (dodge 2500 cummins) has 400k, runs perfect, so maintaining and common sense can go a long way, but the lifter still oils backwards and it's just not a good design
Also I’m a lead/master tech for Chrysler that shop and the 2 others are speed shops and I build race car engines and street car engines from Chevy ford Chrysler etc so I promise the fact you don’t know about the dodge and GM AFM and MDS PROVES HOW BEHIND THE. 8 ball you are!!
I have over 300,000 miles on Gen 3 Hemis with zero issues. I use conventional Lucas heavy duty oil stabilizer to aid in the lifter dry start issue. I am on my third hemi. The other two were brand new, this one was used. I hope that doesn’t come back to bite me. The previous owner Idled the engine about 15% of the total run time.
6:12 "Third grade nonsense"... :) True that, Daniel! This ridiculous oil system makes hydraulic flat tappet cams look good: the oil flows from the lifter through the pushrod to the rockers.
You are 100% wrong. PRESSURIZED oil is fed to the lifter bodies DIRECTLY thru the two oil galleries on each side of the camshaft. The rocker shaft & rockers & the pushrod sockets are fed oil up thru the heads and rocker pedestals pretty much like Chrysler has done since the '50's. The biggest difference is the hollow pushrods which started around '90 with the Magnum SB's.
I never realized they oiled the lifters through the push rods like a slant 6 when they have a perfectly good oil galley intersecting the lifters. No wonder they all tick when cold started
My 2013 Hemi ate the cam and 4 lifters at 65,000 miles. It also had 7 bent valves. Don't know what bent the valves, there were no witness marks on any pistons. I like how it runs, when it runs.
@@eriklarson9137 an engine is a simple machine. I don't need to see the vehicle, it's irrelevant. There are only a few most common scenarios for those symptoms.
I have just purchased a 2015 Grand Cherokee with the 5.7. Only 14,000 miles on it, but all slow city driving, then unused for 5 years. I have ordered the Melling 10452HV oil pump and will use Penrite 5W-30 10 Tenths racing oil, change every 3,500 miles. I hope this will give me a long life engine.
Mmx has a video where they pressurize the oiling system on a hemi block, specifically directing it at the lifters. They are oiled more than by the pushrod alone . In looking at the failures, some are flattened rollers (as in smaller diamerter needle bearing that were changed in 2019 supposedly), some are pitting happening on the face of the cam lobe. The pitting screams shitty heat treatment more than poor lubrication, and the seized rollers suggests soft and too small of diameter needle bearings I still am convinced this is not primarily a lubrication issue. Im a manual machinist too 😉
Change your oil more often, don’t idle, use high quality oil, use a 0w oil, use a bigger oil filter, and shut the MDS off by hitting the tow haul or put the transmission in manual shift mode.
You'd think Dodge would be smarter than putting a restrictive obstruction ( bolt ) through an important oil gallery like that..among the other issues that that system has and you've talked about. Have you researched the ticking issue in the '18, and newer, Ford Mustang 5.0? Anything I've found on it point's too the HP fuel pump, however I've replaced mine and it still has it. Albeit just A LITTLE quieter.
I think the cause of damages we see is lack of preload (from lifter). And it just so happens that roller and its bearings are the weakest link. They're first to go, and then cam lobe follows. But we also see worn out pushrod ends at the rocker end and rocker cup worn out as well. You can tell that at some point it started grinding in one direction thus not letting the pushrod rotate. Was it inadequate oiling at some point or tapping from too much slop (no preload)? Probably both. Also as pushrod and rocker wear, it sends the fine metal dust down the push rod hole and into the lifter, contaminating it, making the situation worse. Also on a rarer occasion I see valve tips beat out (pitted). Lifter rollers were ok, cam lobes had some light pitting. This was on exhaust valves only. Again lack of lubrication in that particular area or too much slop? This system works fine when all components are new, is completely filled with oil and surfaces are smooth to keep oil sealed in. By that I mean rocker shafts, rockers, pushrods and lifters. When engine is shut off, If at any connection we have oil bleeding off, it will lose prime. When motor is started it'll take a few moments to get the oil flowing and re-pump up lifters. So how about drilling the lifter to get it pump up like LS lifter? What do you think?
Some engineers don't like to follow the crowd, even if what the crowd uses works, they want to put their own "stamp" on it. Sometimes the "stamp" reads : failed! Enjoyed your explanation.
This would be a very easy test to prove out.Take a fully assembled motor, remove the intake and valve cover and pump oil thru the motor via oil filter adapter. Should be able to see exactly what is going on.
The problem is the lifter trays are too loose and the sharp edges next to the roller . The loose tray allows the lifter to turn or tilt and the sharp edge catches the cam causing heat and metal slivers to get in the bearing
Yeah uncle Tony's garage did a peace on this and he poured oil over a lifter at that flatter angle and it didn't oil the roller. Powerful engines. I own one but you think they would over come this problem but they didn't.
I've got a 2017 Ram with a 5.7 Hemi. No issues at 54k miles, but my truck does very little idling and I'm religious about timely oil changes. Thanks for your easy-to-understand presentation style. I just recently found your channel and sure appreciate sharing your knowledge with us.
That's a bleed off hole for the oil to get more on the cam shaft I think. And the lifters get too pumped up full of oil that they push too hard on the cam and valve stems. Like a chain that is too tight. It breaks the bearing its on. The lifter pushes too hard and kills the rocker and cam and lifters too.
Seems as I read articles and have installed tons of these lifters in customer vehicles that Moresa and Eaton are the OEM for these lifters. Word on the hill is that the Johnson lifters are the best you can get for these. Team those with T and D roller rockers for the win.
I think it's a industry wide lifter issue. My 2008 Ford F350 with a 6.4 liter Diesel did the same thing. One of the lifters rollers seized and started to skate over the cam lobe destroying it.
Interesting! I've been wrenching for 50+ years but mostly GM. My brother has a RAM 1500 (I forget what year, pre-2020) with the 5.7L Hemi in it and has a good number of miles on it. I've seen videos of the "tick" and his doesn't do it. He runs it hard too pulling a camping trailer!
First off, I like your videos - Thank you. I'm not a mechanic, but just wondering if a Hemi lifter was disassembled and a hole drilled into it - like the LS lifters - Would that extra lubrication help the lifter live longer, (provide extra oil to the valve train) and "cure" the tick ?
I am dodge ram jeep shop foreman. We do alot of lifter failures in police cars and agriculture trucks. I think a lot has to do with maintenance. I have noticed very few failures on properly maintained vehicles. The farm vehicles and public service vehicles around here are rarely serviced on time. I do believe the oiling down from the pushrod is a poor design as well. I know why they did it but it still is questionable
I’m a Chrysler master tech and owning my own shop I’ll take your theory of lifter tick to blow away in the wind!!! I don’t have multiple speed shops and Chrysler ram dodge GM ford and all the rest I’m a certified master tech and my other new car manufacturer warranty shops puts me on a level you’d never comprehend and BTW I own all my shops out right and when dealers can’t fix an issue on their customer cars they send them to me!!!!
Nice dissection of the hemi oil system. Would it possible to ream out that hole around the rocker shaft and head a few thousandths to allow mor oil up through there? Or could doing that starve another component? This is all fascinating to me, I love this mechanical stuff. I have a V6 Camaro I commute in, when it starts consuming more than 1qt in 2k miles like it is now, I'd like to get into that engine and make it bit of a powerhouse, as much as a V6 can be reliably anyway.
what i don't understand before the mds most didn't give trouble. i service a fleet of hemis from when they first started these trucks haul a lot of weight some have gone 600,000 miles no problems most have gone over 400,000 but they are road miles and run Amsoil for engine oil. the only ones that have given trouble were the ones that were in town miles.
I would bet a pepperoni pizza & a cold bottle of beer that many of the oiling problems stem from the design engineer that was a first year graduate from college with a degree as a mechanical engineer. This was his first big project.
So add some cam oiling, I am no expert but it doesn’t seem like it would be hard with the design of the hemi block. Have it feed off oil cooler or a remote oil filter set up. Then add a high volume oil pump as opposed to high pressure.
I’m so glad you said that not that I was gonna buy a hemi, but that just seals the deal. I will never touch a Dodge product jeep Chrysler Dodge hemi stuff. It’s just terrible.
The only 3rd gen hemi oiling diagram I can find on the Internet shows a separate galley feeding each side of the lifter bores. I don't know if that is correct but why would they send oil down the pushrods if the lifter bores are fed? Maybe I'm missing something as I'm not a Mopar guy.
I had a Charger R/T with the 5.7, a Charger Scatpack with the 6.4, and now have another Scatpack with the 6.4. They all ticked, MOST of the time, i did find that if i run in sport mode, which disables the MDS system, i don't have as loud a tick. Odd, but, i hate the MDS. Hemis... if they are not ticking, they are not running.
Watching a video of these hemi issues on other channels indicate that changing the oil pump to a Melling unit or Hellcat unit is supposed to alleviate the issues with oil distribution. I tend to disagree as I did with the person that posted that, it seems to be a delivery problem by splashing through a narrow channel to reach these distant areas, I don't see how any higher volume oil pump would help those issues, please correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are relying on the crankshaft to splash oil up into this distant area, how would a higher volume oil pump help this situation? I don't think it would!
@@powellmachineinc You're the first person that has said this and agrees with me, I cannot see how adding more volume or even pressure for that matter would ever lubricate these distant areas, what would be the solution? I was talking to a mechanic friend of mine who owns a shop and he said if somebody could develop a small pump to recirculate the fluid from the oil pan to these areas they would have a gold mine of an invention, however I don't know how they could be injected properly to lubricate what needs to be done. Raising the idle is not a good solution because who wants to slam their transmission around when they're sitting at a high idle, what is the real solution for this I wonder?
Dodge says the mds block off plugs increase oil flow to the lifter side bodies. Also hellcat lifters have a heavy duty bearing and bigger wheel on the lifter roller. They fit on all the years are a direct upgrade
Bro please stop spreading false info. All non mds lifters from 2015-2023were identical. Whether from a hellcat or a manual trans challenger or 2500 truck. There is no such thing as a hellcat lifter. Now In 2019 it’s been documented they updated the lifter with bigger needle bearings which is true. But yet again a hellcat lifter and a non mds lifter are identicle. Now I’ve never seen or heard on forums of hellcats getting lifter failure even tho the blocks are the same. I believe it’s due to them having a better oil pump
@@pushhrodd01 yea that’s what I meant a hemi non mds like the manual and the hellcat they don’t charge any more for saying you need hellcat lifters so it’s easier to go to dodge or a hemi performance parts online and just order hellcat lifters instead of trying to risk saying a challenger manual and they send you the wrong one. All the hemi performance parts stores online simply just call them hellcat lifters for simplicity
I wonder if arp can come up with a waisted bolt to allow a little more volume, but... still its kind of hinky. I wonder how much trouble a rigging prelube pump would be on this block. Oiling lifters from the top means zero can go wrong - a broken spring takes out the lifter etc.
Maybe Daniel needs to take a set of stock lifter and add an oil grove so the rollers get lubed properly. If that works Daniel. Then you will have people pounding down your door for the improved lifters. 😊❤
WOW, over the years I have watched literally every video on RUclips about the “Hemi tick” and the hemi lifter/ cam issues, and every video was long and made by Hemi and Mopar experts and none of those videos were satisfying nor even had pen-pointed the issue… now here comes Mr. Powell with the very best video on the subject, effortlessly diagnosing the problem and explaining it to where a child could make sense of it…. And you’re not even a Mopar head!!! You explaining the oiling system was awesome. I’m in shock that they oil the lifter last with the oil coming *from* the pushrod. How backwards is that!?!? 👏👏👏 Bravo
Brand really doesn't matter, it's all nuts and bolts in the end
Glad you liked it!
UTG had the same observation. I really never realized mopars feed lifters through the pushrods, despite owning a dodge with 318 long enough to tear the top end down for a burned valve. Other than that, the 318 ran good and mileage was fantastic. Drove that thing around a long time.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259the magnums feed the lifters through a gallery. They use AMC type lifters, even if they are roller. The magnums don't have a shaft rocker, it's pedestal rockers like hydraulic 302/351.
@@GTIFabric Correct. Ever heard of engineering? That might be the difference.
I retired from Chrysler after over 35 years as a tech. I have replaced untold numbers of cams and lifters in these engines, and yes, most were in fact police package cars. The oiling system is passable on everyday and traffic driving, but the police cars sit and idle on the side of the highways for hours at a time, then jump on the throttle when they start a chase. The extended idling makes for a low oil feeding to the valvetrain and the sudden load of a full throttle launch makes for a low oil presence situation on the lifters and cam. The results are obvious, and well documented all over the media. Your brief and spot on accurate description here is one of the best and easiest to comprehend examples I've seen anywhere.
Thank you, we appreciate it!
my hemi ram pickup has 20K miles on it.. its 2 years and a few months old.. I have spent hours and hours idling it as during covid it was my mobile office when I couldnt use my monile office bus.. and it has the dreaded Hemi tick... at 20K miles.. with lots of idling... the truck has never pulled a trailer a day in its life.. its hauled a few loads of firewood and parts for my restoration bus projects but really light use... and it ticks at startup really loud and then is a mild tick the rest of the time.. my 1978 School bus with an Inernational 392 thats never been aparthas a quieter engine...
@@eldoradoboy mine has 155K and a few months ago I pulled out 11,000 pound boat for five hours with no issues but my truck has low idling hours.
You didnt work for chrysler. Just a franchise
As a machinist myself I must say it would appear that the problem isn't necessarily the engineers but the circumstances they have to deal with such as variable valve timing. maintaining pressure so that the variable valve timing works otherwise the EPA isn't going to allow the engine out there etc etc basically regulation ruined this engine.
I 100% agree . Running a grove in the lower body of the lifter and locating it up in the bore to lube the roller makes sense .
My new friend, you are awesome at explaining and teaching, thank you for your expertise.Ive been wrenching for a long time been to many machinists, and i would be proud to have you as my machinist. Richard.
Welcome aboard!
After watching your video and listening to your explanation it's no surprise these lifters are failing. Thank you for continuing to post some of the most informative and helpful content on this platform.
Wishing you and your family good health and fortune in the New Year to come.
Thank you sir
I have a cleveland that had a rocker fail thr beat up the lifter. I reached out to get a new set and they came with a slot from the hole down to the gallery slot. It looked like drill drift. The shop im using said they were trash. I called the maker and he said that clevelands don't get the oil they need up top and this helps. So when you mentioned the slot down to the roller.. the light went on. Love this! I feel like I'm in shop class
You make so much sense!!!
I try hard!
Almost 40 years as a dodge Tech. This is the best, most accurate discussion on this very common issue. I never understood why dodge would allow a problem to continue that started in 2005 with the first 3rd gen hemis. It would seem to me an engineering fix is possible to fix this silly issue. Excellent diagnosis!
Tyvm!
Good report Daniel. Its mind blowing how engineers think. can't wait to see your solution in the future. love your channel.
Thank you!
This isn't the only mopar that oils the top end this way.
I sincerely doubt this is the engineers fault. Probably management trying to cut .000003 cents per block.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 So there are more boat anchors from Mopar out there? Who would have thunk it.
Great breakdown of the issue at hand. I'm an older chev guy, but I have heard about this issue and I'm glad I watched this video. Thanks Daniel!
Glad it helped
The local machinist that has been doing all of my work (turning cranks, etc.) didn't go into such detail, but in a nutshell told that the oiling system is trash/a poor design. Thank you for breaking it down and showing every little nuance as to why it's so bad.
Glad to help
I had a 2004 Ram 1500 that collapsed two lifters when I started it up. Still under warranty and the dealer replaced the heads, then set the electronic governor to 1500 rpm in park. They implied that I was revving it up and racing. I’ve since sold it and bought a 2005 Ram 2500 with 5.9 Cummins.
I’m happy now.
Diesel ftw!
Excessive idle time seems to be the number one killer on these. They do get some splash oil once the rpm comes up around 2K but if it's sitting there at idle for
30-40 mins they get dry. Also Melling has a hard coat anodized HV oil pump that is supposed to be way better than the OEM pumps and it may help hide the issue.
I say hide because more oil isn't really fixing it.. I agree something needs done about the lifter design it's self.
That all being said... I still love my Hemi's :)
@IhateRUclips That's what I've always told people. That and making sure to keep the oil topped up and changed regularly. I've got well over 200,000miles on my 2011 Durango Hemi and it's still going strong but then I'm a 20-30min drive each way to work. A solid 10 mins of that I'm going 50mph. It gets a chance to run at full operational temperature and burn off all the moisture and crap.
@@eurbanautotech My 2011 SRT8 Challenger is at 90K right now. I installed the blower myself at 42k miles. I change the oil every 6K with Mobil1 0-40 Euro Car Spec.
I don't idle it excessively and MDS has basically never been used since I am always in Auto Stick mode and when I did the blower I disabled MDS in the tune.
So far so good! I doubt mine will go 200K making 650 at the wheels. I will probably be doing a 426 block at some point in the future... So if Daniel has an updated lifter by
that time, I will go that route plus that Melling Hard Anodized HV Oil Pump too. Extra insurance :)
My 04 Ram (Non MDS) went 150K before I had to take it off the road due to rust. The Hemi was still going strong.
I have a 2012 with just 50k miles and I'm concerned this will happen eventually. Thinking about adding the higher pressure oil pump.
Couldn't hurt
Thanks Daniel, Thats just a crazy way to get oil in a lifter. I was not aware it was done that way. Todays vehicles have way more miles on them. Worn out rockers and shafts would obviously lead to lifter problems. Thanks for the video lesson !!!
You bet
This is exactly why I would rather have an old school 426 hemi. Have to remember that 105 degree angle in rush hour stop and go adds to the low pressure with bad geometry problems just daily driving.
glad to see you back at it. 1st
Appreciate it!
I believe your thinking is correct, good explanation. I was looking at a diagram of the hemi oiling system and I had an idea. I'm older than you and remember my friends who ran fords in the 60's-70's at the dragstrip sometimes plugged the factory oil passages and ran internal or external tubes to feed the rocker shafts directly from a main passage and also to keep more oil flowing into the cam bearings and lifters. Chrysler seemed to make a simple system more complicated. Good video
I remember the crazy stuff from the 60's. I used to wince when I watched someone drilling out the main jet of a 2 barrel carb.
Good stuff and good attitude. Where you are sure you say so; where you are not sure you say so. You have good knowledge but also admit you don't know it all. Well done. Keep it up. Retired mechanic/machinist in Land Down Under.
Thank you sir!
After watching several videos on this topic, I think you and Uncle Tony's garage are spot on. I believe your groove idea is great. Granted some engineering and testing needs to be done to see how effective it is. Should there be one groove at the top center, or I also had the idea of one on each side closer to the ends of the roller to bring the oil closer to the edges. This would also require less oil in the galley before it flowed through... if that makes sense. My 2010 Charger is at the point of misfire, so I know it's bad, it's only a point of WHEN I can either have the work done or do it myself. I will be replacing the oil pump with a Melling high volume pump to help prevent this issue, but even that's on back order and may not be available until after January, so the car will be sitting in the carport for a while.
Yeah, I think that's the best way to go.
Thank you! I do not know much about the Hemi Engine but I did know that there is a problem with worn cam lobes. After your explanation it is very obvious why there would be problems! Thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights I appreciate it! 👍💯
Glad to help
Looking forward to see your new lifter design with full proper oiling!
Im not a Hemi guy but found this very interesting thanks for another great informative video and Keep them coming!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great analysis. I had no idea. I ignorantly thought they worked the way almost all other engines work. Thank you for doing the research in a thoughtful and methodical way that anyone can follow.
Happy New Year!
Very welcome
I've owned Hemi's since 2003. I no longer let them idle. Idling kills them. That and I use a liter of diesel grade oil at each oil change. I think, my personal opinion, what helps is having some EP ingredients in the oil. But yes, I agree, lack of oil splash/oil starvation is the root of the problem. Also, they eat pushrods, probably due to the startup items you mentioned.
I’ve only done a couple with a locked up roller and a lobe gone on the cam and never really had a chance to look how it works. Makes more sense now. But the ones I did do I soaked the lifters and put the pushrods in oil and cranked the engine over till oil was coming up to the rockers because it all looked funky to me and I wasn’t taking any chances. But I can tear down a camaro/corvette (LS3) to do a cam swap in about 5 hours and the first 5.7 hemi I did in 2.5hours. I was like damn I wish we did more of these.
Hello. I like your work and videos. I've rebuilt several of these hemi's. If I had the resources, I would drill out the oil tube casting galley area and install small nozzles to spray the oil upward towards the cam lobes. I believe that would be the cure for the lifter failures problem. Oiling from the push rods down is the first thing I discovered and hated from the first one I ever rebuilt. Have a great day and a happy New Year!
Again, great analysis.
One thing is that I've heard you say "oil gallery" many times and it tweaked my ears because of the second word.
I'm 61 and rebuilt my first SBC at 16. I guess I first heard or read it as "oil galley" and then probably heard it repeated like that or read it like that numerous times.
Some research proves that my instinct was wrong.
It's "oil gallery," as you say.
Although I pronounce "oil" quite a bit differently than you do. LoL, But that's neither here nor there.
I learn quite a bit on your channel! Thanks!
Yep, galleys are on ships!
I’ve heard it pronounced “oilyul” mostly from up north. Southerners usually pronounce it “oil” without the extra syllable. Not saying one is correct and the other wrong. Just different.
That's one of my minor pet peeves. A galley is a kitchen on a ship, and a gallery is a passageway.
Pete - I am old too, and had the exact same reaction you did. Lol!
I heard from a trusted source / friend who’s a die-hard Mopar guy that was very much “in the loop” back when the Gen.III Hemi and the 4.7 were being developed to replace the old LA / Magnum engines that the Gen-3 Hemi was supposed to be a DOHC design when they started development but eventually they modified it to a cam-in-block pushrod setup instead for packaging and cost reasons instead. He never mentioned the issues with lifter oiling that you mention here but if what he says is true then the whole “top down” valvetrain oiling design you showed us here makes a lot more sense….if that top end oil gallery and supply holes were originally designed to feed oil to cam journals and hydraulic lash adjusters up top it seems like it would work pretty well. Sending the oil through the rocker shafts then back down the push rods to the lifters is definitely an unconventional and inefficient way of doing it, and like you mentioned the placement of the “tube” for top end oiling blocking much of the splash lubrication the cam and lifter rollers would usually get just compounds the problem. It’s definitely an interesting issue to think on.
*I remember someone mentioning that it costed Mopar more to produce the 4.7 SOHC than the Hemi.*
So maybe that is why they got rid of the 4.7
I had a 4.7 in a Dakota and a Durango. I thought they were pretty good for the small size.
Stock turned 6k and with a SC Tuner it redlined at 7k (it ran out of power before the 7k upper limit).
Now with a Hemi Jeep I am wondering why my redline is like 5800 or whatever.
Feels like my Hemi wants to rev more but instead slams into that lame limiter.
I am wondering how high they can safely go (stock) if I got a tuner.
Best Learning Channel ever Thank you
You are welcome!
thanks that was an excellent run down of the system and great insights.
Yw
Glad to see you're feeling better. I hope the rest of the family is as well.
Yeah, just now we are getting over it, it was pretty rough...
Thank you, for sharing your insight, sir! Makes sense.
Very welcome
Well I've often heard people say "oh you shouldn't mess with the standard set up, the manufacturer knows best"
Yeah it's true the manufacturer may actually know best, but knowing best and doing the best are two different things.
Manufacturers do all kinds of crazy, poorly engineered things for all kinds of reasons, they don't necessarily have performance and longevity in mind.
It's great to see a simple, straightforward analysis of one of these crazy things they have done.
Ty! We appreciate it
I sure am glad I ran across Powell Machine Inc...Because all I want to hear is the TRUTH...and apparently that's what were gonna get. Thank you for taking the time to educate the novice and the so called smarty pants alike. I will be a regular viewer.
Well said
@@powellmachineinc Oh...and by the way High Fives for that long hard trip to California and back.
Great content. I think focusing on the design differences between earlier gen 3 hemis years 04-08 Vs the 09- to current would be the first place to start. The earlier hemis did not have this problem. You explain some of the differences in this video. And all which probably lend to lower Idle oil pressure on the later hemis causing high rates of failures to cam and lifters.
I was just wondering that myself. I’ve got a 2020 rebel with the 5.7. At hot idle my RPM sits at 525-550 at best and 31 psi oil pressure. I’m curious what the factory idle RPM was on those early models? The early engines also used a different oil pump. I left a comment up top with a thought about not being able to find any examples of a bad lifter in a 6.2 hellcat engine. The 6.2 has a higher volume oil pump, and I imagine that the RPM is probably a little higher at idle. I wonder if that increased flow managed to properly feed the lifter the required oil to keep it from going bad?
Thank you for sharing your video. I’m working on my first hemi, non MDS. I saw this video first and then the comp cams lifters, that I ordered, just came in. I was eager to open the box and see what they look like. Kind of disappointing. The lifters have that wide groove but there is not any resemblance of any oiling hole. Aside from the roller, The whole body is solid.
Hey Daniel, great info on these Hemi's, of which I own one. I've watched another Dodge Tech's RUclips channel (Reignited - Cycle and Automotive) and Skylar has mashed this topic out quite a bit. His conclusion is that it is low oil pressure, especially when idling for extended periods of time...like in service vehicles, which causes the majority of problems with lifters. He states that the 6.2 Hellcat engines are not suffering lifter failures, like the 5.7's and the 6.4's. He's narrowed the culprit to the oil pump. The 5.7 and 6.4 share the same pump, but the 6.2 Hellcat engine has a thicker rotor in its pump. He goes on to show how a Hellcat pump, or the Moroso high-volume replacement unit, provides MUCH higher pressure at idle speeds. Some of the weaker pumps are indicating only about 18psi at idle. If your theory on the oiling circuit is accurate then that would explain the lack of proper oil getting to the lifters & rollers at idle. My 5.7 idles at ~35PSI so I'm lucky to have a "good" pump and, according to my latest Blackstone Labs oil analysis, I have no metal or contaminates in my oil. I also have a 6-speed Challenger, so no MDS. Believe it or not, I change my full-synthetic Castrol oil once per year. I only put about 8000 miles on it annually. I also use Wix XP filters exclusively. My car just rolled 83000 on the odometer. You and Sky should collaborate on the subject. Being a Dodge tech, he can validate your explanation of the oiling circuit.
Good job you're on the right track.
Ty
29 years as a Mopar dealer Technician here and I have to say you're not correct as to how the MDS lifter is activated. Oil presser to the lifter bore activates the MDS lifters and pushes the buttons in on the sides of the lifter, deactivating the lifter. The opposite of the LS. The problem with the Hemi is three fold. First is low quality roller bearings material used by the lifter supplier. The needles will just flake apart till they are gone. Then beat the cam to death. Chrysler came out with an updated lifter because of this with larger needles. Second is with long idling of the engine and the MDS system not being activated feeding oil to the side of the lifters and cooling the roller on the lifter with excess oil . The non MDS engines do feed oil to side of the lifters all the time and still have lifter failures but far less than the MDS equipped engines. Third is the MDS lifter it self. The lifter when the MDS is activated relies on a light spring inside the lifter to keep the rest of it's valve trains lash tight. But when this spring starts weakening it can't keep the roller on the lifter in constant contact with the cam. So the roller is bouncing on the cam beating it's self to death. As far as oil splash Chrysler says the that oil splash or lack of splash has no effect on the cam and lifter life. As there is more than adequate lubrication under normal driving condition. So is idling for hours normal? Chrysler says no.( I'm not saying I totally agree with Chrysler on that statement.) Personally I think more oil would be better. I have had Hemi's in my bay with 300k miles and never been apart. They always changed the oil on time. And most of them have their foot in it all the time. And I have some that idle for hours at a time and never see very many highway miles and they are the ones that are most likely to have problems... Keep up the videos! I enjoy them.
Thanks for your VERY helpful reply. I really appreciate it! I have a 2016 Dodge Durango R/T with 67k miles on the the 5.7 liter non-MDS engine. Oil and filter changes every 5k to 7k miles with Shell Rotella 5W-20 full synthetic oil and Mobil 1 oil filters. Unfortunately, it has developed lifter noise. Given your above reply, and that my engine is non-MDS, it sounds like the only suspected culprit is the substandard roller bearings in the lifters.
When did the updated lifters come out?
In my opinion the next progression is to start calling aftermarket lifter companies and ask for a face to face meeting. Well before phone calls I'd patent a either repair or upgrade lifter design then go to the lifter companies to start prototyping new lifter for testing and redesigning and testing and so on. Great breakdown though!!!
How about cutting a .010”-.020” groove in the lifter bore from the bottom of the bore to the gallery like we used to do with old solid flat tappet builds? Groove the bores to drop oil onto the wheel/cam interface… I’ve still got a tool to do it by hand…
Definitely would help
New subscriber. Great channel bro. Always waiting for the next video now. Thank you for showing us all your hard work.
Glad u enjoy
The latest factory lifter has larger needle bearings and easier for oil to get into them. Once replaced, nobody has trouble with the new ones.
I think Uncle Tonys Garage did a vid on the Hemi cam problem, if I remember right they moved the cam up in the block and is now shrouded from getting enough splash lube. Its a good vid.
Finally someone talks about the big stupid oil galley they cast into the center of the block that starves the cam of splash oil.
I’ve contemplated an EDM hole in the bottom of the lifter body to spray oil directly on the roller.
I still remember leak down testing all GM lifters with Kent Moore specific setup and then knowing every lifters was primed, we never had any ticking issues back then as you would pick up a faulty one before it went in, we would do this for just about every make of engine and lifter eventually as failure rate was zero with this method for lifters and cams, also the quality aspect of starting engine with no ticking noises was an expectation put on use as was starting first time with no backfires and idling correctly as it was also and expectation that if you put cam and lifters in you would time the distributor correctly too .
That’s wild as hell. I didn’t even know that there was a set-up like that.
I sure hope someone makes a better aftermarket lifter an thanks for the info on the oiling system that is a bad design compared to others that should be getting oil before the top for sure an I'm definitely interested n seeing more hemi content
Haha - Dorman
I have a 2005 Ram 1500 4x4 with the 5.7. I purchased this truck new in January of 2006 with 8 miles on the odometer. For the first 30k miles I used conventional oil { non synthetic} and changed it every 5k miles. When I made the change to synthetic, I chose Royal Purple 5w20 for the seal properties. I am telling you folks all this to make this point. My original engine has 430k miles and I still drive it everyday. Most folks that hear this say that I just got lucky a received a "good" one. This truck still has the original starter. I do not let it idle excessively, other than 5 or so minutes in the am. My question is, could my success be coming from my choice in motor oil?
Taking care of stuff goes a long way, my 89 Silverado had 300k when I sold it, ran great, my shop truck (dodge 2500 cummins) has 400k, runs perfect, so maintaining and common sense can go a long way, but the lifter still oils backwards and it's just not a good design
Also I’m a lead/master tech for Chrysler that shop and the 2 others are speed shops and I build race car engines and street car engines from Chevy ford Chrysler etc so I promise the fact you don’t know about the dodge and GM AFM and MDS PROVES HOW BEHIND THE. 8 ball you are!!
I have over 300,000 miles on Gen 3 Hemis with zero issues. I use conventional Lucas heavy duty oil stabilizer to aid in the lifter dry start issue. I am on my third hemi. The other two were brand new, this one was used. I hope that doesn’t come back to bite me. The previous owner Idled the engine about 15% of the total run time.
Unicorns do exist
@@powellmachineinc best possible response.
6:12 "Third grade nonsense"... :) True that, Daniel! This ridiculous oil system makes hydraulic flat tappet cams look good: the oil flows from the lifter through the pushrod to the rockers.
Exactly!
You are 100% wrong. PRESSURIZED oil is fed to the lifter bodies DIRECTLY thru the two oil galleries on each side of the camshaft. The rocker shaft & rockers & the pushrod sockets are fed oil up thru the heads and rocker pedestals pretty much like Chrysler has done since the '50's. The biggest difference is the hollow pushrods which started around '90 with the Magnum SB's.
@@budlanctot3060 Nope! Thanks for playing but not on SBCs and Corvairs! GM got it right, oil flow just as I described.
@@ercost60 willful ignorance is no excuse for stupidity
@@budlanctot3060Did you watch the video?
I never realized they oiled the lifters through the push rods like a slant 6 when they have a perfectly good oil galley intersecting the lifters. No wonder they all tick when cold started
Yep, it's crazy they did it that way
I believe the hole in the lifter is for mds. Only 4 lifters have that hole.. Its not for lubrication.
This is not a mds lifter
My 2013 Hemi ate the cam and 4 lifters at 65,000 miles. It also had 7 bent valves. Don't know what bent the valves, there were no witness marks on any pistons. I like how it runs, when it runs.
That sounds like a cam timing and/or excessive rpm, and/or low on oil problem to me.
@@budlanctot3060 Imagine making a diagnoses without even seeing the vehicle.
@@eriklarson9137 an engine is a simple machine. I don't need to see the vehicle, it's irrelevant. There are only a few most common scenarios for those symptoms.
@@budlanctot3060 Kreskin
I have just purchased a 2015 Grand Cherokee with the 5.7. Only 14,000 miles on it, but all slow city driving, then unused for 5 years. I have ordered the Melling 10452HV oil pump and will use Penrite 5W-30 10 Tenths racing oil, change every 3,500 miles. I hope this will give me a long life engine.
Good luck!
Mmx has a video where they pressurize the oiling system on a hemi block, specifically directing it at the lifters. They are oiled more than by the pushrod alone . In looking at the failures, some are flattened rollers (as in smaller diamerter needle bearing that were changed in 2019 supposedly), some are pitting happening on the face of the cam lobe.
The pitting screams shitty heat treatment more than poor lubrication, and the seized rollers suggests soft and too small of diameter needle bearings
I still am convinced this is not primarily a lubrication issue. Im a manual machinist too 😉
Change your oil more often, don’t idle, use high quality oil, use a 0w oil, use a bigger oil filter, and shut the MDS off by hitting the tow haul or put the transmission in manual shift mode.
You'd think Dodge would be smarter than putting a restrictive obstruction ( bolt ) through an important oil gallery like that..among the other issues that that system has and you've talked about.
Have you researched the ticking issue in the '18, and newer, Ford Mustang 5.0? Anything I've found on it point's too the HP fuel pump, however I've replaced mine and it still has it. Albeit just A LITTLE quieter.
Love your videos very informative! thanks and have a great new year!
Glad you like them!
thanks for explaining this problem
You are most welcome
I think the cause of damages we see is lack of preload (from lifter). And it just so happens that roller and its bearings are the weakest link. They're first to go, and then cam lobe follows. But we also see worn out pushrod ends at the rocker end and rocker cup worn out as well. You can tell that at some point it started grinding in one direction thus not letting the pushrod rotate. Was it inadequate oiling at some point or tapping from too much slop (no preload)? Probably both. Also as pushrod and rocker wear, it sends the fine metal dust down the push rod hole and into the lifter, contaminating it, making the situation worse.
Also on a rarer occasion I see valve tips beat out (pitted). Lifter rollers were ok, cam lobes had some light pitting. This was on exhaust valves only. Again lack of lubrication in that particular area or too much slop?
This system works fine when all components are new, is completely filled with oil and surfaces are smooth to keep oil sealed in. By that I mean rocker shafts, rockers, pushrods and lifters. When engine is shut off, If at any connection we have oil bleeding off, it will lose prime. When motor is started it'll take a few moments to get the oil flowing and re-pump up lifters.
So how about drilling the lifter to get it pump up like LS lifter? What do you think?
There's more than enough preload.
Some engineers don't like to follow the crowd, even if what the crowd uses works, they want to put their own "stamp" on it. Sometimes the "stamp" reads : failed! Enjoyed your explanation.
No BS, pro insights, thanks!
Glad you like them!
Thanks for the informational video😮
Your welcome!
I have a engraver that I used to scribe a line after the third time.
it has 125K and still going.
Brother you do great informative videos.
Glad you like them!
This would be a very easy test to prove out.Take a fully assembled motor, remove the intake and valve cover and pump oil thru the motor via oil filter adapter. Should be able to see exactly what is going on.
As a new hemi owner my heart felt a sudden pain when you called it a turd lol
Get used to it.
The problem is the lifter trays are too loose and the sharp edges next to the roller . The loose tray allows the lifter to turn or tilt and the sharp edge catches the cam causing heat and metal slivers to get in the bearing
Yeah uncle Tony's garage did a peace on this and he poured oil over a lifter at that flatter angle and it didn't oil the roller. Powerful engines. I own one but you think they would over come this problem but they didn't.
Yes, I remember that video. I think he said the main problem was created by the raised camshaft location.
Brother, that's very well explained. Now someone needs to step up and make a good fix.....great video...........😎😎
LS Swap. Also, throw a decent trans in while you are at it.
Definitely
In your unbiased opinion, which 3/4 or 1 ton gasser engine is built the best. With the least issues with proper maintenance. Thank you.
I've got a 2017 Ram with a 5.7 Hemi. No issues at 54k miles, but my truck does very little idling and I'm religious about timely oil changes. Thanks for your easy-to-understand presentation style. I just recently found your channel and sure appreciate sharing your knowledge with us.
That's a bleed off hole for the oil to get more on the cam shaft I think. And the lifters get too pumped up full of oil that they push too hard on the cam and valve stems. Like a chain that is too tight. It breaks the bearing its on. The lifter pushes too hard and kills the rocker and cam and lifters too.
No....
@@powellmachineinc My mushroomed valve stems tell me a different story.
Good video, what about installing a high volume oil pump with the rebuilds also? Thanks
Definitely would help, but it isn't addressing the problem
Maybe two grooves from hole in tappet, aimed at roller/axle junction on each end of roller.
Seems as I read articles and have installed tons of these lifters in customer vehicles that Moresa and Eaton are the OEM for these lifters. Word on the hill is that the Johnson lifters are the best you can get for these. Team those with T and D roller rockers for the win.
I think it's a industry wide lifter issue. My 2008 Ford F350 with a 6.4 liter Diesel did the same thing. One of the lifters rollers seized and started to skate over the cam lobe destroying it.
Interesting! I've been wrenching for 50+ years but mostly GM. My brother has a RAM 1500 (I forget what year, pre-2020) with the 5.7L Hemi in it and has a good number of miles on it. I've seen videos of the "tick" and his doesn't do it. He runs it hard too pulling a camping trailer!
When the nut twisted off you stated “almost but not quite”. I thought it was pert near but not plumb.😊😅
First off, I like your videos - Thank you.
I'm not a mechanic, but just wondering if a Hemi lifter was disassembled and a hole drilled into it - like the LS lifters - Would that extra lubrication help the lifter live longer, (provide extra oil to the valve train) and "cure" the tick ?
Little more involved that just drilling a hole
@@powellmachineinc I accept your point, but as I wrote, I'm not a mechanic.
I am dodge ram jeep shop foreman. We do alot of lifter failures in police cars and agriculture trucks. I think a lot has to do with maintenance. I have noticed very few failures on properly maintained vehicles. The farm vehicles and public service vehicles around here are rarely serviced on time. I do believe the oiling down from the pushrod is a poor design as well. I know why they did it but it still is questionable
I’m a Chrysler master tech and owning my own shop I’ll take your theory of lifter tick to blow away in the wind!!! I don’t have multiple speed shops and Chrysler ram dodge GM ford and all the rest I’m a certified master tech and my other new car manufacturer warranty shops puts me on a level you’d never comprehend and BTW I own all my shops out right and when dealers can’t fix an issue on their customer cars they send them to me!!!!
Nice dissection of the hemi oil system. Would it possible to ream out that hole around the rocker shaft and head a few thousandths to allow mor oil up through there? Or could doing that starve another component? This is all fascinating to me, I love this mechanical stuff. I have a V6 Camaro I commute in, when it starts consuming more than 1qt in 2k miles like it is now, I'd like to get into that engine and make it bit of a powerhouse, as much as a V6 can be reliably anyway.
Ultimately the lifter is the issue, that's what needs to be fixed.
Need to patent that and start making aftermarket ones.
what i don't understand before the mds most didn't give trouble. i service a fleet of hemis from when they first started these trucks haul a lot of weight some have gone 600,000 miles no problems most have gone over 400,000 but they are road miles and run Amsoil for engine oil. the only ones that have given trouble were the ones that were in town miles.
Thank you for your knowledge and video's USA 🇺🇸
I would bet a pepperoni pizza & a cold bottle of beer that many of the oiling problems stem from the design engineer that was a first year graduate from college with a degree as a mechanical engineer. This was his first big project.
So add some cam oiling, I am no expert but it doesn’t seem like it would be hard with the design of the hemi block. Have it feed off oil cooler or a remote oil filter set up. Then add a high volume oil pump as opposed to high pressure.
That does zero to fix the problem
I’m so glad you said that not that I was gonna buy a hemi, but that just seals the deal. I will never touch a Dodge product jeep Chrysler Dodge hemi stuff. It’s just terrible.
When rocker arm bolts are tight how does oil get through the hole at all at that point
The only 3rd gen hemi oiling diagram I can find on the Internet shows a separate galley feeding each side of the lifter bores. I don't know if that is correct but why would they send oil down the pushrods if the lifter bores are fed? Maybe I'm missing something as I'm not a Mopar guy.
Yes all engine are that way, the problem is the lifter, not the oil gallery
I had a Charger R/T with the 5.7, a Charger Scatpack with the 6.4, and now have another Scatpack with the 6.4. They all ticked, MOST of the time, i did find that if i run in sport mode, which disables the MDS system, i don't have as loud a tick. Odd, but, i hate the MDS. Hemis... if they are not ticking, they are not running.
add a bit of plumbing side oiler for lack of better term old racing tricks
The oil is already at the lifter...the lifter has no provision to take the oil, it's a lifter issue
Watching a video of these hemi issues on other channels indicate that changing the oil pump to a Melling unit or Hellcat unit is supposed to alleviate the issues with oil distribution. I tend to disagree as I did with the person that posted that, it seems to be a delivery problem by splashing through a narrow channel to reach these distant areas, I don't see how any higher volume oil pump would help those issues, please correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are relying on the crankshaft to splash oil up into this distant area, how would a higher volume oil pump help this situation? I don't think it would!
Yes, adding 10 or 20 % more volume is not a solution
@@powellmachineinc You're the first person that has said this and agrees with me, I cannot see how adding more volume or even pressure for that matter would ever lubricate these distant areas, what would be the solution? I was talking to a mechanic friend of mine who owns a shop and he said if somebody could develop a small pump to recirculate the fluid from the oil pan to these areas they would have a gold mine of an invention, however I don't know how they could be injected properly to lubricate what needs to be done. Raising the idle is not a good solution because who wants to slam their transmission around when they're sitting at a high idle, what is the real solution for this I wonder?
Dodge says the mds block off plugs increase oil flow to the lifter side bodies. Also hellcat lifters have a heavy duty bearing and bigger wheel on the lifter roller. They fit on all the years are a direct upgrade
Bro please stop spreading false info. All non mds lifters from 2015-2023were identical. Whether from a hellcat or a manual trans challenger or 2500 truck. There is no such thing as a hellcat lifter.
Now In 2019 it’s been documented they updated the lifter with bigger needle bearings which is true. But yet again a hellcat lifter and a non mds lifter are identicle.
Now I’ve never seen or heard on forums of hellcats getting lifter failure even tho the blocks are the same. I believe it’s due to them having a better oil pump
@@pushhrodd01 yea that’s what I meant a hemi non mds like the manual and the hellcat they don’t charge any more for saying you need hellcat lifters so it’s easier to go to dodge or a hemi performance parts online and just order hellcat lifters instead of trying to risk saying a challenger manual and they send you the wrong one. All the hemi performance parts stores online simply just call them hellcat lifters for simplicity
So how do we fix the problem?
A proper lifter that oils in a normal fashion
I wonder if arp can come up with a waisted bolt to allow a little more volume, but... still its kind of hinky. I wonder how much trouble a rigging prelube pump would be on this block. Oiling lifters from the top means zero can go wrong - a broken spring takes out the lifter etc.