The people who benefit from changing their TD settings are for people like me that don’t have virtual gears. While i used to run 100% all the time, i found that i just didn’t have the fitness to keep up on hard efforts climbing with my 53/39 and 25-11 (my local roads are suuuuupppppeeerrrr flat) and oval chain rings. As i get stronger I’m sure I’ll get my TD back up to 100%. I found that RPM is what defines how someone should adjust their TD. Excellent video.
Thanks ever so much Steak&Chains 🙏. I too don’t have the virtual gears - and always find when outside on the steep gradients I’m better for running a realistic TD % on the turbo . And for sure - as our fitness improves our cadence and power both come up too, which helps ever more on the steep stuff (as does a 34 on the rear 🤣) 👍
Very insightful Phil. I am all on 100% all the time in Zwift. In Dutch they call it 'stoempen', just power through it. But Eds option: change gearing for each stage on Zwift is also very viable. Again: great video!
Gerben ! I love the name “stoempen” , it’s absolutely perfect. On one of my live streams on the Uber Pretzel, for the final climb up the Alp Du Zwift, I could not stay seated and spin, because my power was too low at 240W - and basically I had to stay standing and stomp my way up 2/3 of that climb ! Proper emotional 😅
I have just recently (2months ago) put my TD up to 100%. I have noticed a wonderful increase in overall strength and fitness on the bike. Indoors and outdoors. Here in the winter in Canada I do fatbiking on trails which requires higher cadence and good power output to get up hills and through the snow. I have noticed the improvement here, it is fantastic! Great video as always. Take good care.
Cheers for sharing your experience on this Paul 🙏 - thats really intriguing to hear how it’s contributed to physical capability outdoors. I’m hoping I’ll be stronger / better equipped to cope with the climbs in the spring as a result 🤞
Nice test Phil. I ride Zwift at 100% and have my weight set spot on my 13 stones. I think if you variate from your true weight and setting Zwift to 100%, you will, if not careful, come unstuck very quickly outdoors when climbing. Keep it as real as possible on Zwift is my motto.
Thanks Phill, always interesting to see different opinions and findings around TD 👌🏻 Personally I have mine set around 85%, this based on my effort grinding up Alpe d'Huez with the wrong cassette and approximately matching a similar experience for Alpe du Zwift :)
Much appreciated Jim🙏, I reckon that approach is a good one. I too rode up Alp D’Huez on a 32 cassette mainly seated (c260W), and I reckon 85% would give a nice cadence to enable similar on Zwift 💯. TD is definitely bespoke to the rider’s fitness and gearing in real life. The fitter the rider, the better the ability to spin at high watts on a steep gradient 👍
I agree with 100% setting....Using Sequoia roads toboggans you can really feel the small climbs and descents and the changes are painful. Only for Pretzel and Alpe d'Huez I put 80% as I only have a 39x25.
Thanks Thanh 🙏 - and for sure with 100% the rolling terrain on Sequioa is super tough ! I find the same on my WattBike - but it also has a small lag which makes that part of the circuit super tough ! And for sure if you road the Alp D’Huez in real life, you’d have a 32 on the back, so flipping TD down to 80% should give you a similar range of gears 👍
I personally love the feel of the TD at 100%. But again I love riding climbs too so I want Zwift to feel as close to acending a hill/mountain as possible. I did do a trail a few moons ago with different levels on different days and I certainly found I was more fatigued after doing the same route at 100% rather than 50% & 75% even though the average watts where roughly the same.
Thanks for sharing your own perspective , Crossers 🙏 - and we are indeed of a similar mind . Hopefully it will make a difference when spring comes around 🤞
nail on head at 100% you will fatigue faster than at lower TD; 300 watts up 10% is not burning energy at the same rate as 300 watts on the flats; lower cadence is energy inefficient and you burn 3 times as much glcogen at say 60 rpm than at 90 rpm due to ustilising fast twitch fibres more.
Absolutely superb film. Accurate comparison and sound conclusion. I’ve always sort of treated a lower difficulty setting akin to having a really wide range cassette on my outdoor bike, which I suppose is what your experiment supports.
Thanks ever so much James 🙏 - that’s extremely kind of you 💯. I think of it in exactly the same way - and practically thats how it works in my experience👍. Albeit the official Zwift explanation is a little more obtuse about flattening out gradients etc ...
Obviously the range of undulations reduces with TD reduction. 10-12% becomes 5-6% simulated. That's why I often ride with a low TD - I can't be bothered to change chainrings, so I flatten the roads and ride in the big ring most of the time.
Agreed Darren - the convenience of not having to change out a 28 cassette for a 32 just because you want to do a climbing race on Zwift is a very important benefit of lower TD 💯👍
Great video and a subject which certainly splits opinion. I always run on 100% as I want the experience to be as realistic as it can be, taking into account all the other factors and I would only be fooling myself. The ‘watts are watts’ brigade will argue it makes no difference and if so, why not just run at 100% then? 😊
Thanks ever so much Chris - that’s super kind of you 🙏 - and controversial it is ! I think the fittest riders with biggest W/kg won’t often run out of gears on Zwift - 100% or 50% because they can turn the crank fast at high watts - but for the rest of us who want their power indoors to translate outside on the climb, I agree 75%-100% is about right depending on what gearing you have on your road bike 👍
Totally agree with what you said about TD,, if people want to make it easier to climb on trainer and put in 50% that's fine , but annoying when they state it makes no difference ,,I wish Zwift would do racing where TD was @ 100%,, yes you can put a bigger cassette on but as IRL you will be changing gears alot more rather than sitting and spinning ,, I hate 100% TD but it has to been done to appreciate how hard climbing is ,, keep up the good work Phil and a fast recovery back to full power 💪
I really appreciate you sharing your own perspective on this Gary 🙏, and as you can see I ride 100% for a similar reason. I think the fittest riders with biggest W/kg won’t often run out of gears on Zwift - 100% or 50% because they can turn the crank fast at high watts - but for the rest of us who want their power indoors to translate out on the climb, I think 75%-100% is about right depending on what gearing you have on your road bike 👍
I do the same. Just mentally I know it could be similar when I’m outside. My avg power is very similar indoor and out so I don’t fool myself that I’m doing well indoor but crap when outside if I use the default 50%.
I'm against 100%, certainly doesn't feel the same for me outdoors as it does indoors, and I mainly put that down to visuals. 'Seeing' a gradient coming at you, feeling the gradient as the bike moves under you and having to change how you sit on the bike because of it is what outdoor riding brings that indoor doesn't for me at any trainer difficulty to be honest. You know what I do, I change it day in and day out as to how my legs feel, just like a rider in the Tour would opt for different gears if a tailwind is forecast or a 20% climb. There's certain courses on Zwift that you are already at a disadvantage if you only ride on 100% trainer difficulty, the slider is there to be used in my opinion. Certainly no need to have everyone on the same TD either, other wise we'd be complaining that one climber has a smaller gear than the other going up Ventoux but they should have been on the same gear😅
Cheers Ed - and 💯 I agree with what you say. I’d tried to make the point in the vid that TD is personal to the fitness of the rider and the gearing they ride outdoors. Because even with the same outdoor gearing a really strong / fit rider will be able to sustain 5.5W/kg up a steep incline and have the power to sustain spinning the gear (eg 350W) - whereas for me I’d be at say 4.5W/kg and only 290W and unable to spin at that output (it would be grind or stand). I also very much agree that the slider is to be used - to avoid changing gearing ratios on the actual bike, and to create parity on a number of courses with other racers. I think to place well on Zwift, it’s almost essential to spin and have lower than 100% TD in order to sustain breathing and cadence plus conserve energy. It’s something I’ll experiment with in a race. But as someone in central London who doesn’t ride enough in the hills, I’m always struck by how quickly I personally have to get out the saddle when the gradient goes double digit 👍 and I want to be able to cope ok in the spring
@@edlaverack as one of the uks best hill climbers i find this interesting; what turbo you on; wonder if it would feel different on a different turbo brand. think for racing i wouldnt mind as much if everyone was at the same level and id say 50% as a min; 75% would be better as it gives the guys with more fast twitch muscles the advantage.
@@kblades9409 Kickr 18. Most turbos respond differently yep. I’ve been at 75% for the last few weeks. The high level races are forcing people on to 100% now
Thanks ever so much Stuart 🙏 - definitely for the real world save riders with bigger power to weight than the typical low to mid Cat A or below. Fitter = better ability to turn the gear fast when the cadence increases 👍
Trainer difficulty is one of MANY factors that make indoor cycling a very different beast to outdoor cycling. To think that using 100% difficulty makes you ride realistically is to ignore all the other factors that are also quite important, like the inclination of the bike and lateral movement. There are (rather expensive) accessories that aim to minimize these differences, like the Wahoo incline simulator or the Saris platform, but those are just approximations to the outdoor experience-just like 100% trainer difficulty is. Wind resistance (or fan positioning) is also a thing that can never be realistic enough, which has a consequence of indoor riders spending more energy in cooling down the body than what they would do outside. The other point that seems to be frequently ignored is the difference between trainers. If I use mine at 100%, it becomes instantly very hard even in those ramps of Tempus Fugit, which are only 1% and 2%. It is very snappy, not a smooth transition at all, and it feels as hard as an outdoor change of incline from 0% to 4 or 5%. Could this be a matter of calibration? Certainly, but calibration will not make it "realistic", *only a better approximation*, one that still doesn't solve all the other problems, and it's certainly a disadvantage for races.
Cheers Alejandro 🙏 - agreed, so many factors that make a difference. I’ve been exploring a few of them in this little series of Zwift vs Real life over the last 3 months. I’ve not heard of what you describe before - so it may be the trainer itself, because to your point, calibration I think is more about ensuring the power readings are accurate. Best thing to do is ride out on a few climbs, and figure out where you run out of gearing and have to stand or grind 👍
Cheers OldSlow 🙏 - and for sure a few others have made the same point also. Very interesting that some smart trainers become very hard to ride on 100% 👍
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy I didn't mean the calibration of the power meter part, which one does following some instructions, but the calibration that the firmware has that decides the tension that corresponds to each gradient requested by an application, but even more importantly, it's the smoothness of that change that I'm missing, making it very hard to keep my cadence steady.
I recently did bolongna on %100 and found it quicker but that's because I run out of gears and had to push a slightly higher power just to get to the top 😁 so I would say for those that are not as strong on the hills to use %100 to become stronger outside so your muscles remember what it feels like to ride at 50rpm 👌👍
Thats exactly the same for me on Bologna, Michael - if I want a fast time, it’s up and out the saddle to mash, and I get more power 😅. I think this is also because I need to get better at staying seated to spin higher power . But I found in the outdoor hill climb season, that basically when ever the gradient went over 8% I’d just stand and mash, and got my best power and speed that way . On the longer steeper climbs, I was having to alternate out the saddle vs seated lower cadence 👍
Great video Phill. For the longer climbs I think 100% TD is more realistic. On my lower end trainer 100% makes Zwift unrideable due to the lag on the rolling roads. Absolutely no question that the lower the TD the easier it is. I could hold 300 watts for the duration of a short crit race on 0% TD but couldn't last a lap on 100%...
Cheers Darren 🙏 - I’ve been interested to learn from a number of the comments that some people’s trainers don’t work so well on 100% 😳 And to your point, I completely agree that there’s no point in ruining the riding experience on Zwift - the most important point is to enjoy it and get fit. I’ll have to see what 0% is like soon - will be very interesting 🧐
Great video Phil 👍 I’m not to clued up on the zwift trainer difficulty but I feel it would be good to have everyone on the same, I know that’s not possible with not everyone having smart trainers but would save the argument and make it equal for everyone no matter what 🤷♂️
Cheers Giorgio 🙏. I do think it’s personal to the rider and the gearing they ride outdoors. Because even with the same outdoor gearing a a really strong / fit rider will be able to sustain 5.5W/kg up a steep incline and have the power to sustain spinning the gear (eg 350W) - whereas for me I’d be at say 4.5W/kg and only 290W and unable to spin at that output.
It's equal for everyone. You can't compare different gearing. If I have 11-32 and you live in flat Florida you probably riding 11-24 which means you can't get up bigger mountain because you will run out of gears and obviously if you are supper strong you can but that's because you can push big watts. So trainer difficulty all that is GEARING SELECTOR so if you don't have gears you get them. You still have to use whatever power you have to get up and how fast you want to get up. Ride on 😀
Was having a discussion with my friends on Zwift this morning. I am wanting to be able to climb the hills in the lakes so i will be changing mine to 100% after seeing this and just use 50% in races!
I was under the assumption that trainer difficultly in effect just changes the amount of times you have to change gear? The lower the TD the less you have to change
I’m the same Janek - looking to take part in Fred Whitton in May, with the super steep gradients 😅 So for sure I’d expect to be in the smallest gear a lot, and standing or grinding low cadence . And this in part drives my decision to use 100% in Zwift. In my experience with 50% its easier to fettle the gears in order to sustain a nice consistent cadence and power, whereas on 100% you get disrupted more as the gradient steepens. So for me 50% is not about fewer gear changes, but more about not having to worry about being in the smallest gear and having no ability to change down, which in turn ensures that you can sustain the nice cadence. On 100% on steeper climbs I find I have fewer gear changes because I’m in the smallest gear a large part of the time, and can’t change down, so have to stand or grind . Enjoy the Lakes 💯👌
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy thanks! If you've never ridden in lakes before it is absolutely relentless definitily not flat roads haha! Good luck in the Fred hoping to do it myself sometime! 👍🤞
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy well i live in lancashire and my parents have a caravan up there so i have ridden there many times now! It is a blast but do not set your expectations to high it is just about getting around and surviving tbh! especially when you throw in a couple of the passes haha! :D i'm sure you will be fine
Hi Phil, The bad thing about TD is that it allows for unrealistic gearing - The good thing is that you essentially can change gearing of your bike without physically changing the bike and I love that, without it Zwift wouldn't be for me - With my bike having 53/39 in the front and 11-28 in the back I would not be able to ride many of the climbs in Zwift - I use the the default 50 pct TD. On Some/many smartbikes you do not need TD as much because you can setup gear ratio on the go in the software, maybe also on your Wattbike.
That’s a great point Henrik🙏 - and for sure if you are going to change your gearing for your climbing outdoors, then absolutely you’ll need to move the trainer difficulty down on Zwift 💯👍. It’s a great tool. I was also trying to frame the point against my own real world gearing and fitness levels. On the WattBike there’s no ability to change the ratios but to your point you can on Wahoo Kickr bike
@@stevem2939 - cheers Steve🙏 . I’d seen this also - but my practical experience is that in reality it is about the gears. Because for all but the strongest riders there comes a point where the gradient causes us to be in the smallest gear in order to spin, and after that it’s grind or stand. Whereas on 50% on Zwift it makes it possible to spin up inclines the large majority of us will not be able to
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy Re riding @ 100% TD, If you have the same gearing on your turbo bike as on your outside bike then you can't go wrong .If you have the same gearing then I feel it's best to always ride @ 100% TD I know replicating your road bike gearing on a Wattbike is difficult !!!
I'm on Fulgaz and use the resistance scale for climbing to balance my gears on my smartbike. When I'm not out of gears i will set the resistance at 100%.
Nice Comparison. Keeping it at 100% most of the time to not flatten out the hills. Also to have the kickr climb move correctly. TD matters IMO on descends i spin out on harder descends quiet easily. Would be interesting to see a comparison the Rouvy i think they have a similar setting there and might even have your local climbs (if not you can upload them). Cheers!
Thanks Thomas - thats very much appreciated 🙏 And thanks for sharing your own experience of this 👍 With the Kickr Climb thats a lovely set up - and will put you in great shape for when we are back outdoors 🙏. Nice idea on Rouvy - I’ll have a look at the software 👍
On downhill im at a real disadvantage and i have to almost push just as hard as on the uphill to keep up with those who have it on a lower setting. Also my highest gear feels too low for descending so i should probably lower it a bit.
Agreed Ron - if the trainer difficulty setting is making it harder for you than when on the same bike and gearing outside - then drop it down until you feel that you run out of small gears on Zwift on a similar gradient to outside 💯
I use 100% and feel this is the most realistic. In real life you dont really change your cassettes depending on the ride you use. 100% replicates the gradient correctly and with practice your cadence inevitably improves with your fitness and knowing your gears. My zwift setup is an old 8 speed on a Kickr at 100%, so in a way using an 11 speed should be a bit easier on the road.
Agreed cwil 💯 changing the cassette sometimes even means a new derailleur and chain - so not easy. As you can see I’m in agreement with you - and for sure I reckon it may even be a tad easier by the sound of your indoor gearing. Thanks for reaching out 🙏
I have tried racing on 100% alot and when i switched to 50% i started getting segment pbs out of nowhere. You can think what you want about this but its a fact that higher % difficulty inflicts more muscle damage which then makes it harder to put on a effort since you cant optimise your cadence 24/7 your muscles will get more tired. Maybe it doesent matter as much at lower power outputs but certainly for zone4-6 like in zwift races
I couldn’t agree more Korvin 💯 - and at the end of the video I conclude that to win a race on Zwift it’s optimal to be on 50%. To your point, when on 100% with the steeper gradients on Zwift, you are either grinding a low cadence or out the saddle, which disrupts the cadence and rhythm plus creates more muscle fatigue. I’m only really advocating 100% if your intent is to ride longer outdoor climbs, with steeper gradients (using the same gearing as indoors) . And even this will vary according to fitness - because a strong rider who can put down 5.5W/kg for 40mins will be able to stay seated and spin on a steeper gradient than e.g. me (or someone less powerful) who can only sustain 4.5W/kg over the same time (I’ll be forced to grind or stand once past 10%) 👍
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy the muscle fatigue comes from the low cadence which in turn comes from climbing hills this is what happens in real life; those smashing up 10% grads at 90 rpm on zwift are in cloud cuckoo land.
I enjoy 50%, personally. Power is power, and I always make it a point to stand on climbs in zwift (I'm a grinder, so I keep a lower cadence naturally). I find that the trainer has a small lag between going from a flat surface to a hill. 100% also makes you power more spiked, and not as smooth. 50% difficulty also allows you to keep your power up on a descent, which is not really feasible on 100% or outdoors. Depends on the kind of workout you want. Keeping a certain wattage over the course of 2, 3, even 4 hours on Zwift is really, really beneficial because you won't maintain the same constant power outdoors due to downhills and coasting. Gives you a better endurance base for those even longer rides outside where breaks are more common.
I think this is a crucial point, Kristofer - the most important thing is to enjoy the training (and avoid injury) - so way better to do what you prefer. My WattBike suffers from the same lag - which is most pronounced on the rolling terrain like Titans Grover - where the resistance is peaking when I’m well into a mini descent and vice versa. So on Crit City I run 50% to cope with the rollers . And for sure keeping the power smooth and constant over a long period gives an incredible training benefit. I do still think that when the gradient goes past a certain point outdoors (specific for each rider) - then it will inevitably become a grind fest - making it much harder out than in 👍
Until I get my rocker plate for my atom I will keep default settings I like to grind the gears just not on a stationary bike. Thanks for the clip though as spent the weekend pondering. Too much time on my hands I guess
Cheers Rob 🙏 I too keep the WattBike on the standard 22 gears (I think there is an 11 option). And if your preference is to grind on the climb, then 100% is the way to go 😅 but I think the standard setting is 50% in Zwift. I’ll be interested to hear what you think of the rocker plate
Great video! My Kickr trainer came with a 11-28 tooth rear cassette. But to simulate maybe a 30 or 32 ring at the back could I maybe reduce it to 80 or 90 percent to replicate a bigger gear at the back??
Hi Dino - thanks ever so much. I reckon reduce to 75% and see if you can turn a cadence of 80-85rpm on a climb with a gradient where you would be able to spin the same cadence in real life on your bike with a 32 on the rear. In my experience 75%-80% represented a 32. But will differ from trainer to trainer
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy thank you! I’m so glad I now understand this option. I really thought it was just a handicap advantage thing. On second thought I realised I ride in real life with the same rear cassette ratio so I might leave it at max where I’ve had it since the start and see what happens when I finally am able to upgrade my bike and wheels from the default one you start with 😂 I think that might be another reason the gears feel a bit off or heavy in general. Thanks again
Hi Harry - the WattBike Atom comes with a built in holder, that adjusts to hold anything from an iPhone to iPad. So apologies, I can’t recommend a separate holder 👍
Cheers Jonathan - I will do that soon. But in the mean time check out the second half of my video Ultimate Test! Zwift & WattBike vs Peleton - and you’ll see a good review of my Atom 👍
Great vid Phil , just out of interest pre buying a watty , does it show your gears on screen Zwift or is it something you’ve added to show gearing in this video #Ride on
Thanks ever so much peebee 🙏 When I connect to Zwift using my iPad or iPhone, the gears show up on the top right (automatic - nothing to do with me !) But for some reason when I race for the live streams on the PC, I don’t see them. I have loved my WattBike - and hope you enjoy yours 💯
Thanks Saracen 🙏 - thats hugely appreciated. I really loved the Prince, it was about the same weight as my C60, but was comfortable and climbed well. I’m not the best bike handler - so can’t say I threw it into the corners on the descent. But The Garda Bike Hotel know what they are doing - and stock the Pinerello Prince, Nitro and F12 - I was impressed 👍
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy great to hear. I’ve been eyeing one up I must admit... Just went back and rewatched your Italy trip followed by your Alpe d’Heuz and Innsbruck climbs. Chapeau on your efforts sir
Very nice video and explanation, I'm totally on the same page as you, I want the gradient spank the crap out of my legs just like it does outside. (having a Kickr climb makes it even more realistic) I think what seem to confuse a lot of people is racers saying they use TD to tweak their gear ratio, but in reality it's just as Zwift explains it... it's the gradient you tweak, so that 10% climb is actually only 5% at 50% TD... they just don't want to admit they make it easier for themselves 😝(I'm kidding of course, it's not a cheating if everyone can do it... right?) Like you say, A watt is a watt no matter what(t). Keep up the nice work!
Hi.A watt may be a watt but watts are created differently. Put it this way Which do you think would be harder..Lifting a 200kg weight above your head once, or lifting a 20kg weight 10 times ??..Both require the same amount of power ( watts ) but one would be a lot harder ( perhaps impossible ) than the other !!!
Cheers Rides of Japan 🙏 - super kind of you ! Agreed the Zwift definition about flattening out the gradient is correct, and I think sums up why its harder to apply the same gearing indoors and out and get the same results. It’s harder out. I do think the fittest riders with biggest W/kg won’t often run out of gears on Zwift - 100% or 50% because they can turn the crank fast at high watts - but for the rest of us who want their power indoors to translate outside on the climb, I agree 75%-100% is about right depending on what gearing you have on your road bike . Thanks for your kind support 💯
That’s a really clever analogy Steve - pure genius 👌 As someone who loves the gym, and could grind out high rep sets with reasonable weight, but had very poor 1RM - it resonates well !
According to your findings, watts are not watts then because the same power is more difficult at TD 100%. How do we resolve conservation of energy with lower TD when power is used to determine how much energy has been expended?
Thats a very good question kodiakpb 💯 . I think the power is the power - but the body is using more energy to produce it when standing, and creating more muscular fatigue when grinding. So this means more wasted energy and / or reaching the point of too high a HR or too much fatigue earlier. So this to me is why I use the 100% - to get used to the rhythm being broken up and better able to mix up the different riding styles and cadence to produce a given power 👍
I do agree that 100% TD is more lifelike but In my experience the TD makes no difference going uphill, but does going down. At 100% TD there isnt enough resistance to push 300W especially with steep slopes. However with lower TD there is more or no resistance so 300W can be maintaned. For races i do better with lower TD (typically 25%) but train with 100% for the realism.
Very interesting Chris🙏 - I think that the impact of TD varies by turbo / smart bike from all the comments. I find plenty of resistance to push into at 100%. And I do experience the same as you on the descent . Also the more I think about Zwift racing - the more I agree with your conclusion to ride sub 100% - because it’s too much of a disadvantage vs other riders to stay 100 👍
When I have long climbs at or above 10% gradient (in the real world), I can't spin comfortably any faster than 76 rpm I have to get out of the saddle. Im glad to see I'm not the only one. I wish Zwift was just a bit more realistic
Thanks for sharing your own experience🙏 , Ric - as you say it’s good to know many of us are similar. I do find that for me 100% does feel pretty similar in terms of cadence on the climb and seating vs standing etc 👍
Ric, try RGT - Premium. Upload a GPX file to create a magic road and away you go. I like Zwift, however turning more of a game every ride. Phill, Leet Hill real ride data (from before) vs 100% RGT magic road?
Hi phil ? Thanks for another informative video!! 😊,could you please advise me what trainer difficulty you think I should be on, im 52 only been cycling since may 20! In the outdoors most hills feel like im towing a caravan going up them! W/kg swift is normally around 2.0-2.3😩, thanks for any advice you can give mate 👍
Nice work for taking up cycling Keith 💯👌 - you’ll be a lot fitter and healthier for it in 12months time if you persist. If you want to ride the steeper climbs on Zwift - at 2-2.3W/kg I’d advise 50%, because at 100% the cadence may be too low and tough on your knees - and avoiding injury is important. It would be the same if you were outdoors and continually slowly grinding up steep inclines. But as your fitness improves and your w/kg increases, you cadence at higher power will increase. And over time you can compare your cadence and general comfort on the climbs on Zwift with similar gradients outdoors, and decide if it feels easier inside vs out - and then adjust your TD progressively if it feels too easy in. Key at this stage is to enjoy the cycling indoors and out, and through progress comes motivation to keep going and improve.👍
💯 Ted 💯 ! So often in eg The Fred Whitton or Exmore Hardest Hundred, I saw people grinding up these climbs with a 28 on the back. I use a 30 or 32 depending on the bike👍
I just purchased a Kickr after years of using a basic Mag wheel on trainer and I was totally unaware that "trainer difficulty" adjustment was even a thing with regards to smart units until I was setting this unit up, I fully expected 10% grade to be just that unless your unit has a lower max grade available of course. I run a compact with a 32t-34t rear in the real world as I am not a whippet and I like to ride with a higher cadence and I know I will run out of gears on certain Zwift routes as I would in the real world and I will have to deal with it in the same way. I purchased the smart unit as I want to start doing some races and I am now in two minds as how to setup my unit when racing, Out of the box I set it up to be 100% TD as that will mean constant gear changes as in the real world and hearing folks say they are racing at vastly different TD has thrown me a bit, I do not want to get spat out the back due to a settings tweak "that everyone is doing", or are their races that use a standardised TD limits so everyone is in the same boat relevant to equipment of course?. Or as you say just set it to 50% TD when racing??.. Kinda ironic that I have come across this now as I didn't even look at racing using my old setup as I wanted to make sure I was on a level playing field to then find a pleather of seemingly acceptable tweaks that riders are using.. Superb vid BTW
Thanks ever so much HobScotch - that’s massively appreciated 🙏. If your intent is for the racing and training to translate to outside riding then I use 75% -100% to replicate a 32-30 on the rear (which I have on my road bikes) and run out of gears about the right time on Zwift as the gradient changes. If you want only to be competitive in Zwift races then run 10-30% - because this is what others are doing because it’s easier. My preference is to mirror the outside 💯
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy Thanks for getting back to me, I have been hammering the climbs the last few weeks on Zwift and RGT and have come to the conclusion I will be sticking to 100% TD, I will simply accept the potential disadvantage in exchange for the real world gains when it comes to racing. Have a safe one.
More armchair critique: it's time to get one of those articulated mounts for your voice microphone. The s/n ratio with fan noise is well, less than optimal. As it stands, your dulcet tones are nearly overwhelmed by the fan/bike noises. (My credentials as an audio engineer for 15 years notwithstanding.)
when I decided to go from 30% to 100% TD, I lost 20 watts of ftp indoor, because the pedaling pattern is really not identical, even if the output power is similar. At 30 or even 50 TD you take advantage of the momentum given to each pedal stroke, while at 100 TD, it is necessary to press harder every time you pass the high point of the pedal. And on a 12% slope, that’s when you feel the weight of your bike (or abdominal fat!). I think the 300 watts really feel different on high percentages, between 30TD or 100TD.
Thats exactly my experience Jerome 💯 - and because I want to get better at riding outside on the climb, thats why I go with 100%👍 I hugely appreciate you sharing your own perspective on this 🙏
So... same watts at both, more manageable cadence. Have my difficulty at around 60ish% and find Zwift harder than real world. I will say I have not compared it as thoroughly as you did. Feel like I push a bigger outside and work on higher cadence inside. That’s probably due to living in Florida!!
For sure Brian - same watts but easier to sustain the rapid cadence on the steeper climbs 💯 And based on my experience of riding in Florida, it’s pretty flat big ring all the way, so TD won’t make much of an impact 👍
My takeaway from this is that road bikes are wayyy over-geared for the vast majority of users. Take me for example, 34/32 gearing and not at all fit, anything 8% or higher and I'm grinding in the 32, a 40 or bigger cassette would be better. spin to win.
I think you make a great point Derek 🙏 - I too only ever use the biggest gear on the flatter crit races, and am more prone to running out of options on the climb! Hence I converted both of mine to easier gearing - 32 rear cassette on the Colnago and 30 on the Wilier . Spin indeed to win!! 💪
the problem with zwift is it's hard to tell when a hill is coming up so you have to change gears really fast, outside you can simply SEE the hills. Constantly shifting indoors is annoying as hell.
Hi jspaceman - it’s specific to the WattBike Atom, but only when I am displaying Zwift on the iPad. If on the laptop I don’t get the gears! Not sure why 🙃
Nice comparison, Phill! Was this part of the Bro Science Series? ;) While I do acknowledge and agree with what you said, as to why TD doesn't really matter most of the time, I do still think that it does make a difference for how you deploy that power. Especially if you want to try to replicate realistic conditions and feelings outdoors, most of us don't have piles upon piles of cassettes to change between. Besides, you kept it fairly reasonable just doing 50 and 100%, but in my experience the people on Zwift who argue the most for TD not mattering are the people who ride and race at 0% TD, even if it may be AdZ or VenTop. Again, what type of gearing would you realistically need to throw on to do that cadence and power deployment up those climbs? Ps. What a camera man duo, Paul and Davide. Come to think of it...where do I bet on the next pickup for the WLC roster? ;P
Thanks Lord - that’s hugely appreciated Sir 🙏. Yes - it’s a little Broscience 🧪 in the name of Zwift 😅. And for sure for most riders - we’ll run out of gears outdoors on the longer steeper climbs - even with a 32 on the back. But for the strongest - they have superior fitness and power to turn the gear seated - so I can see why sub 100% will be realistic for them 💯
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy fingers and toes.. haha.. just checked my bike and I have a 11-25 on the back.. may need to get myself an 11-32 for this.. 😀😀😀
Nice one Danny - I personally believe that translates better to your outdoor fitness if you run out of small gears on a similar gradient on Zwift vs IRL. I’ve a 30 on the back of my Wilier, and 100% translates well for me 💯
I can see why you do it, but surely the real fix is getting lower gears on the outside bike. Or just picking routes where you can pedal in your lowest gear.. e.g if a cyclist could only sustain 200 odd watts then perhaps there's little point going to Italian mountains in the first place. Where I live there is a short section of one hill that you have to stand and stomp and it's rarely worth going there. You gain little or nothing from it, except perhaps a higher risk of injury. I wouldn't travel to italy to expand the length of time I was doing the knee breaking stuff. And similarly I see no reason to configure zwift to try and turn my bike into a gym machine either. YMMV, clearly you are happy to stomp. I note mostly in pro cycling they ride the bike - although they have some extreme sections with stomping on some of the climbs. So, personally I would still configure zwift so I can pedal the bike on all the routes I do (with the virtual gearing the ratios are wide enough you can probably use 100% for everything now anyway)
The real problem is that the "climbing setups" your describe are still too hard for normal people, and they're way better than they were in the 1980s (42x21 gaaaaaa)! Things improved dramaticaly when triple chainrings became common in road bikes in the 90s, but never really caught on, and was a distinctly unfashionable "low end bike thing" by about 2005. The compact setup with the lowest gear 34x30 is not bad, but as you show , still not quite enough, results in more chain drops when shifting the front (unless you have Di2) than the triple with a 30 granny ring mated to a cassette with a 25 or even 28 tooth big cog. An now the push to 1x setups, avoids the chain drops, but do normal people understand they need to sacrifice top speed and swap in a smaller chainring to be able to climb? Do bike shops tell people? Nope, they do not. Ride what the pros ride and suffer! The Zwift difficulty slider absolutely lets people live in a fantasy world where their bikes have lower effective gearing. Maybe that will help change things in the real world?
Cheers Jody - really appreciate your insight 🙏💯. And I couldn’t agree more. I’m in Tenerife at the moment - with a range of climbs - some lovely consistent low gradient and some super steep and unrelenting. I’ve got a hire bike with a compact and a 32, and as soon as the gradient is above 8% my cadence is sub 85 rpm (at about 3.5W/kg - 4W/kg) and once much above 10% it’s 70-75 rpm and I need to regularly stand . I agree that depending on the gearing the rider has in real life - the majority of people could not spin up the equivalent climbs on Zwift (especially Ventop / Bologna / Radio Tower / Reverse Innsbruck KOM / Reverse epic ). In real life I can stay seated and spin 80-90rpm up Alpe d’Huez on my Wilier with a semi compact and a 30 on the rear . But still grind or stand for the steeper ramps (again at 3.5-4W/kg). 👍
Phil the Supreme...Lord of Zwift ,Leader of all City&Tower Bridge bike lanes,Grande Master of Tesco 1/2 baguettes with tuna...how is your recovering post procedure going...when can your vast audience and as well your sponsors&investors expect a good vlog with nutrition guides??? your clients are getting quite nervous as their sales have dropped considerable due your very poor PR performance of their products...greetings to Jayne as well.
Good to hear from you Rui - agent to the wannabe fitness stars, and gateway to all the biggest brands ✊ Recovery has gone well thanks - and am back training, with hopefully the first training vlog back tomorrow, to chart how much fitness I did or didn’t lose over the course of 11 days off the bike 💪. Yes - viewings are down, and imaginary sponsors are losing confidence 😂
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy Phil the Great...you're vast audience expects u now to weight at least 68kg...that means u must keep with our agreed diet of warm carb meals and full baguettes with tuna...not 1/2 baguettes any more...waiting very much to see your next vlog with more on deck products because sponsors don't award medals for 2nd or 3rd places...be well brave heart...
I promise to do better on the warm baguette front - but can I start with 3/4 and work my way up to a whole one 😋😂. Yes - sponsors will start to feel a bit better about life shortly . Stay healthy Sir 💯
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy Phil the Brave Heart Lord of Zwift Grande Master of Tesco baguettes...u want to start with a 3/4 of a baguette??? u are not feeling well tonight 4sure...get those Ice Spiced Buns done immediately!!!
The people who benefit from changing their TD settings are for people like me that don’t have virtual gears. While i used to run 100% all the time, i found that i just didn’t have the fitness to keep up on hard efforts climbing with my 53/39 and 25-11 (my local roads are suuuuupppppeeerrrr flat) and oval chain rings. As i get stronger I’m sure I’ll get my TD back up to 100%. I found that RPM is what defines how someone should adjust their TD. Excellent video.
Thanks ever so much Steak&Chains 🙏. I too don’t have the virtual gears - and always find when outside on the steep gradients I’m better for running a realistic TD % on the turbo . And for sure - as our fitness improves our cadence and power both come up too, which helps ever more on the steep stuff (as does a 34 on the rear 🤣) 👍
Very insightful Phil. I am all on 100% all the time in Zwift. In Dutch they call it 'stoempen', just power through it. But Eds option: change gearing for each stage on Zwift is also very viable. Again: great video!
Gerben ! I love the name “stoempen” , it’s absolutely perfect. On one of my live streams on the Uber Pretzel, for the final climb up the Alp Du Zwift, I could not stay seated and spin, because my power was too low at 240W - and basically I had to stay standing and stomp my way up 2/3 of that climb ! Proper emotional 😅
I have just recently (2months ago) put my TD up to 100%. I have noticed a wonderful increase in overall strength and fitness on the bike. Indoors and outdoors. Here in the winter in Canada I do fatbiking on trails which requires higher cadence and good power output to get up hills and through the snow. I have noticed the improvement here, it is fantastic!
Great video as always. Take good care.
Cheers for sharing your experience on this Paul 🙏 - thats really intriguing to hear how it’s contributed to physical capability outdoors. I’m hoping I’ll be stronger / better equipped to cope with the climbs in the spring as a result 🤞
Nice test Phil. I ride Zwift at 100% and have my weight set spot on my 13 stones. I think if you variate from your true weight and setting Zwift to 100%, you will, if not careful, come unstuck very quickly outdoors when climbing. Keep it as real as possible on Zwift is my motto.
Much appreciated Tony - and as you can see my experience is the same as yours 🙏. And 100% on the weight setting also 💪👍
Thanks Phill, always interesting to see different opinions and findings around TD 👌🏻 Personally I have mine set around 85%, this based on my effort grinding up Alpe d'Huez with the wrong cassette and approximately matching a similar experience for Alpe du Zwift :)
Much appreciated Jim🙏, I reckon that approach is a good one. I too rode up Alp D’Huez on a 32 cassette mainly seated (c260W), and I reckon 85% would give a nice cadence to enable similar on Zwift 💯. TD is definitely bespoke to the rider’s fitness and gearing in real life. The fitter the rider, the better the ability to spin at high watts on a steep gradient 👍
I agree with 100% setting....Using Sequoia roads toboggans you can really feel the small climbs and descents and the changes are painful. Only for Pretzel and Alpe d'Huez I put 80% as I only have a 39x25.
Thanks Thanh 🙏 - and for sure with 100% the rolling terrain on Sequioa is super tough ! I find the same on my WattBike - but it also has a small lag which makes that part of the circuit super tough ! And for sure if you road the Alp D’Huez in real life, you’d have a 32 on the back, so flipping TD down to 80% should give you a similar range of gears 👍
I personally love the feel of the TD at 100%. But again I love riding climbs too so I want Zwift to feel as close to acending a hill/mountain as possible. I did do a trail a few moons ago with different levels on different days and I certainly found I was more fatigued after doing the same route at 100% rather than 50% & 75% even though the average watts where roughly the same.
Thanks for sharing your own perspective , Crossers 🙏 - and we are indeed of a similar mind . Hopefully it will make a difference when spring comes around 🤞
nail on head at 100% you will fatigue faster than at lower TD; 300 watts up 10% is not burning energy at the same rate as 300 watts on the flats; lower cadence is energy inefficient and you burn 3 times as much glcogen at say 60 rpm than at 90 rpm due to ustilising fast twitch fibres more.
Lovely bikes great vid and thanks for zwift ride ons👍
Thanks Rob - thats very kind of you 🙏 And my pleasure 💯
Absolutely superb film. Accurate comparison and sound conclusion. I’ve always sort of treated a lower difficulty setting akin to having a really wide range cassette on my outdoor bike, which I suppose is what your experiment supports.
Thanks ever so much James 🙏 - that’s extremely kind of you 💯. I think of it in exactly the same way - and practically thats how it works in my experience👍. Albeit the official Zwift explanation is a little more obtuse about flattening out gradients etc ...
Obviously the range of undulations reduces with TD reduction. 10-12% becomes 5-6% simulated. That's why I often ride with a low TD - I can't be bothered to change chainrings, so I flatten the roads and ride in the big ring most of the time.
Agreed Darren - the convenience of not having to change out a 28 cassette for a 32 just because you want to do a climbing race on Zwift is a very important benefit of lower TD 💯👍
Great video and a subject which certainly splits opinion. I always run on 100% as I want the experience to be as realistic as it can be, taking into account all the other factors and I would only be fooling myself. The ‘watts are watts’ brigade will argue it makes no difference and if so, why not just run at 100% then? 😊
Thanks ever so much Chris - that’s super kind of you 🙏 - and controversial it is ! I think the fittest riders with biggest W/kg won’t often run out of gears on Zwift - 100% or 50% because they can turn the crank fast at high watts - but for the rest of us who want their power indoors to translate outside on the climb, I agree 75%-100% is about right depending on what gearing you have on your road bike 👍
Totally agree with what you said about TD,, if people want to make it easier to climb on trainer and put in 50% that's fine , but annoying when they state it makes no difference ,,I wish Zwift would do racing where TD was @ 100%,, yes you can put a bigger cassette on but as IRL you will be changing gears alot more rather than sitting and spinning ,, I hate 100% TD but it has to been done to appreciate how hard climbing is ,, keep up the good work Phil and a fast recovery back to full power 💪
I really appreciate you sharing your own perspective on this Gary 🙏, and as you can see I ride 100% for a similar reason. I think the fittest riders with biggest W/kg won’t often run out of gears on Zwift - 100% or 50% because they can turn the crank fast at high watts - but for the rest of us who want their power indoors to translate out on the climb, I think 75%-100% is about right depending on what gearing you have on your road bike 👍
I do the same. Just mentally I know it could be similar when I’m outside. My avg power is very similar indoor and out so I don’t fool myself that I’m doing well indoor but crap when outside if I use the default 50%.
Cheers Ian 🙏 and thanks for sharing your perspective. It’s good to know there are quite a few of us that experience the same when outside 👍
I'm against 100%, certainly doesn't feel the same for me outdoors as it does indoors, and I mainly put that down to visuals. 'Seeing' a gradient coming at you, feeling the gradient as the bike moves under you and having to change how you sit on the bike because of it is what outdoor riding brings that indoor doesn't for me at any trainer difficulty to be honest. You know what I do, I change it day in and day out as to how my legs feel, just like a rider in the Tour would opt for different gears if a tailwind is forecast or a 20% climb. There's certain courses on Zwift that you are already at a disadvantage if you only ride on 100% trainer difficulty, the slider is there to be used in my opinion. Certainly no need to have everyone on the same TD either, other wise we'd be complaining that one climber has a smaller gear than the other going up Ventoux but they should have been on the same gear😅
Cheers Ed - and 💯 I agree with what you say. I’d tried to make the point in the vid that TD is personal to the fitness of the rider and the gearing they ride outdoors. Because even with the same outdoor gearing a really strong / fit rider will be able to sustain 5.5W/kg up a steep incline and have the power to sustain spinning the gear (eg 350W) - whereas for me I’d be at say 4.5W/kg and only 290W and unable to spin at that output (it would be grind or stand).
I also very much agree that the slider is to be used - to avoid changing gearing ratios on the actual bike, and to create parity on a number of courses with other racers. I think to place well on Zwift, it’s almost essential to spin and have lower than 100% TD in order to sustain breathing and cadence plus conserve energy. It’s something I’ll experiment with in a race.
But as someone in central London who doesn’t ride enough in the hills, I’m always struck by how quickly I personally have to get out the saddle when the gradient goes double digit 👍 and I want to be able to cope ok in the spring
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy indeedy. I trained for the British champs using flat roads😉
@@edlaverack as one of the uks best hill climbers i find this interesting; what turbo you on; wonder if it would feel different on a different turbo brand. think for racing i wouldnt mind as much if everyone was at the same level and id say 50% as a min; 75% would be better as it gives the guys with more fast twitch muscles the advantage.
@@kblades9409 Kickr 18. Most turbos respond differently yep. I’ve been at 75% for the last few weeks. The high level races are forcing people on to 100% now
The murky world of TD summed up perfectly. Training for real world = 100%, Racing or 'gaming' = 50%
Thanks ever so much Stuart 🙏 - definitely for the real world save riders with bigger power to weight than the typical low to mid Cat A or below. Fitter = better ability to turn the gear fast when the cadence increases 👍
I didn’t even know Zwift had this setting. Glad I watched this now
@@rogerc23 cheers Roger 👍 - time for your own experiment then 🧪 😁
Trainer difficulty is one of MANY factors that make indoor cycling a very different beast to outdoor cycling. To think that using 100% difficulty makes you ride realistically is to ignore all the other factors that are also quite important, like the inclination of the bike and lateral movement. There are (rather expensive) accessories that aim to minimize these differences, like the Wahoo incline simulator or the Saris platform, but those are just approximations to the outdoor experience-just like 100% trainer difficulty is. Wind resistance (or fan positioning) is also a thing that can never be realistic enough, which has a consequence of indoor riders spending more energy in cooling down the body than what they would do outside.
The other point that seems to be frequently ignored is the difference between trainers. If I use mine at 100%, it becomes instantly very hard even in those ramps of Tempus Fugit, which are only 1% and 2%. It is very snappy, not a smooth transition at all, and it feels as hard as an outdoor change of incline from 0% to 4 or 5%. Could this be a matter of calibration? Certainly, but calibration will not make it "realistic", *only a better approximation*, one that still doesn't solve all the other problems, and it's certainly a disadvantage for races.
Important point that different trainers feel different and act different.
Cheers Alejandro 🙏 - agreed, so many factors that make a difference. I’ve been exploring a few of them in this little series of Zwift vs Real life over the last 3 months. I’ve not heard of what you describe before - so it may be the trainer itself, because to your point, calibration I think is more about ensuring the power readings are accurate. Best thing to do is ride out on a few climbs, and figure out where you run out of gearing and have to stand or grind 👍
Cheers OldSlow 🙏 - and for sure a few others have made the same point also. Very interesting that some smart trainers become very hard to ride on 100% 👍
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy I didn't mean the calibration of the power meter part, which one does following some instructions, but the calibration that the firmware has that decides the tension that corresponds to each gradient requested by an application, but even more importantly, it's the smoothness of that change that I'm missing, making it very hard to keep my cadence steady.
@@AlejandroMallea makes sense Alejandro 👍
did somebody say trainer difficulty?
😂 I sure did Chris - and your vide remains the gold standard! 100% we run out of gears outdoors when the gradient steps up 💪
I recently did bolongna on %100 and found it quicker but that's because I run out of gears and had to push a slightly higher power just to get to the top 😁 so I would say for those that are not as strong on the hills to use %100 to become stronger outside so your muscles remember what it feels like to ride at 50rpm 👌👍
Thats exactly the same for me on Bologna, Michael - if I want a fast time, it’s up and out the saddle to mash, and I get more power 😅. I think this is also because I need to get better at staying seated to spin higher power . But I found in the outdoor hill climb season, that basically when ever the gradient went over 8% I’d just stand and mash, and got my best power and speed that way . On the longer steeper climbs, I was having to alternate out the saddle vs seated lower cadence 👍
Great video Phill. For the longer climbs I think 100% TD is more realistic. On my lower end trainer 100% makes Zwift unrideable due to the lag on the rolling roads. Absolutely no question that the lower the TD the easier it is. I could hold 300 watts for the duration of a short crit race on 0% TD but couldn't last a lap on 100%...
Cheers Darren 🙏 - I’ve been interested to learn from a number of the comments that some people’s trainers don’t work so well on 100% 😳 And to your point, I completely agree that there’s no point in ruining the riding experience on Zwift - the most important point is to enjoy it and get fit. I’ll have to see what 0% is like soon - will be very interesting 🧐
Great video Phil 👍 I’m not to clued up on the zwift trainer difficulty but I feel it would be good to have everyone on the same, I know that’s not possible with not everyone having smart trainers but would save the argument and make it equal for everyone no matter what 🤷♂️
Cheers Giorgio 🙏. I do think it’s personal to the rider and the gearing they ride outdoors. Because even with the same outdoor gearing a a really strong / fit rider will be able to sustain 5.5W/kg up a steep incline and have the power to sustain spinning the gear (eg 350W) - whereas for me I’d be at say 4.5W/kg and only 290W and unable to spin at that output.
Totally agree Giorgio
It's equal for everyone. You can't compare different gearing. If I have 11-32 and you live in flat Florida you probably riding 11-24 which means you can't get up bigger mountain because you will run out of gears and obviously if you are supper strong you can but that's because you can push big watts. So trainer difficulty all that is GEARING SELECTOR so if you don't have gears you get them. You still have to use whatever power you have to get up and how fast you want to get up. Ride on 😀
Was having a discussion with my friends on Zwift this morning. I am wanting to be able to climb the hills in the lakes so i will be changing mine to 100% after seeing this and just use 50% in races!
I was under the assumption that trainer difficultly in effect just changes the amount of times you have to change gear? The lower the TD the less you have to change
I’m the same Janek - looking to take part in Fred Whitton in May, with the super steep gradients 😅 So for sure I’d expect to be in the smallest gear a lot, and standing or grinding low cadence . And this in part drives my decision to use 100% in Zwift. In my experience with 50% its easier to fettle the gears in order to sustain a nice consistent cadence and power, whereas on 100% you get disrupted more as the gradient steepens. So for me 50% is not about fewer gear changes, but more about not having to worry about being in the smallest gear and having no ability to change down, which in turn ensures that you can sustain the nice cadence. On 100% on steeper climbs I find I have fewer gear changes because I’m in the smallest gear a large part of the time, and can’t change down, so have to stand or grind . Enjoy the Lakes 💯👌
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy thanks! If you've never ridden in lakes before it is absolutely relentless definitily not flat roads haha! Good luck in the Fred hoping to do it myself sometime! 👍🤞
@@JanekDetko I’ve not yet ridden up there Janek - am looking forward to it and nervous about it in equal manner 😬😊
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy well i live in lancashire and my parents have a caravan up there so i have ridden there many times now! It is a blast but do not set your expectations to high it is just about getting around and surviving tbh! especially when you throw in a couple of the passes haha! :D i'm sure you will be fine
10.48 perfectly sums it up
Cheers DH - I think you call it right - easier indeed to stay in the target power zone 👍💯
Hi Phil, The bad thing about TD is that it allows for unrealistic gearing - The good thing is that you essentially can change gearing of your bike without physically changing the bike and I love that, without it Zwift wouldn't be for me - With my bike having 53/39 in the front and 11-28 in the back I would not be able to ride many of the climbs in Zwift - I use the the default 50 pct TD. On Some/many smartbikes you do not need TD as much because you can setup gear ratio on the go in the software, maybe also on your Wattbike.
ruclips.net/video/YC5TqAFZhHo/видео.html
That’s a great point Henrik🙏 - and for sure if you are going to change your gearing for your climbing outdoors, then absolutely you’ll need to move the trainer difficulty down on Zwift 💯👍. It’s a great tool. I was also trying to frame the point against my own real world gearing and fitness levels. On the WattBike there’s no ability to change the ratios but to your point you can on Wahoo Kickr bike
@@stevem2939 - cheers Steve🙏 . I’d seen this also - but my practical experience is that in reality it is about the gears. Because for all but the strongest riders there comes a point where the gradient causes us to be in the smallest gear in order to spin, and after that it’s grind or stand. Whereas on 50% on Zwift it makes it possible to spin up inclines the large majority of us will not be able to
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy Re riding @ 100% TD, If you have the same gearing on your turbo bike as on your outside bike then you can't go wrong .If you have the same gearing then I feel it's best to always ride @ 100% TD I know replicating your road bike gearing on a Wattbike is difficult !!!
Thats a great way to frame it Steve - much appreciated 👍
I'm on Fulgaz and use the resistance scale for climbing to balance my gears on my smartbike. When I'm not out of gears i will set the resistance at 100%.
Nice strategy Nildo 💯 - you’ll get the benefits in real life on the climb 👍
Nice Comparison. Keeping it at 100% most of the time to not flatten out the hills. Also to have the kickr climb move correctly.
TD matters IMO on descends i spin out on harder descends quiet easily.
Would be interesting to see a comparison the Rouvy i think they have a similar setting there and might even have your local climbs (if not you can upload them).
Cheers!
Thanks Thomas - thats very much appreciated 🙏 And thanks for sharing your own experience of this 👍 With the Kickr Climb thats a lovely set up - and will put you in great shape for when we are back outdoors 🙏. Nice idea on Rouvy - I’ll have a look at the software 👍
On downhill im at a real disadvantage and i have to almost push just as hard as on the uphill to keep up with those who have it on a lower setting. Also my highest gear feels too low for descending so i should probably lower it a bit.
Agreed Ron - if the trainer difficulty setting is making it harder for you than when on the same bike and gearing outside - then drop it down until you feel that you run out of small gears on Zwift on a similar gradient to outside 💯
I use 100% and feel this is the most realistic. In real life you dont really change your cassettes depending on the ride you use. 100% replicates the gradient correctly and with practice your cadence inevitably improves with your fitness and knowing your gears.
My zwift setup is an old 8 speed on a Kickr at 100%, so in a way using an 11 speed should be a bit easier on the road.
Agreed cwil 💯 changing the cassette sometimes even means a new derailleur and chain - so not easy. As you can see I’m in agreement with you - and for sure I reckon it may even be a tad easier by the sound of your indoor gearing. Thanks for reaching out 🙏
I have tried racing on 100% alot and when i switched to 50% i started getting segment pbs out of nowhere. You can think what you want about this but its a fact that higher % difficulty inflicts more muscle damage which then makes it harder to put on a effort since you cant optimise your cadence 24/7 your muscles will get more tired. Maybe it doesent matter as much at lower power outputs but certainly for zone4-6 like in zwift races
I couldn’t agree more Korvin 💯 - and at the end of the video I conclude that to win a race on Zwift it’s optimal to be on 50%. To your point, when on 100% with the steeper gradients on Zwift, you are either grinding a low cadence or out the saddle, which disrupts the cadence and rhythm plus creates more muscle fatigue. I’m only really advocating 100% if your intent is to ride longer outdoor climbs, with steeper gradients (using the same gearing as indoors) . And even this will vary according to fitness - because a strong rider who can put down 5.5W/kg for 40mins will be able to stay seated and spin on a steeper gradient than e.g. me (or someone less powerful) who can only sustain 4.5W/kg over the same time (I’ll be forced to grind or stand once past 10%) 👍
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy the muscle fatigue comes from the low cadence which in turn comes from climbing hills this is what happens in real life; those smashing up 10% grads at 90 rpm on zwift are in cloud cuckoo land.
I enjoy 50%, personally. Power is power, and I always make it a point to stand on climbs in zwift (I'm a grinder, so I keep a lower cadence naturally). I find that the trainer has a small lag between going from a flat surface to a hill. 100% also makes you power more spiked, and not as smooth. 50% difficulty also allows you to keep your power up on a descent, which is not really feasible on 100% or outdoors. Depends on the kind of workout you want. Keeping a certain wattage over the course of 2, 3, even 4 hours on Zwift is really, really beneficial because you won't maintain the same constant power outdoors due to downhills and coasting. Gives you a better endurance base for those even longer rides outside where breaks are more common.
I think this is a crucial point, Kristofer - the most important thing is to enjoy the training (and avoid injury) - so way better to do what you prefer. My WattBike suffers from the same lag - which is most pronounced on the rolling terrain like Titans Grover - where the resistance is peaking when I’m well into a mini descent and vice versa. So on Crit City I run 50% to cope with the rollers . And for sure keeping the power smooth and constant over a long period gives an incredible training benefit. I do still think that when the gradient goes past a certain point outdoors (specific for each rider) - then it will inevitably become a grind fest - making it much harder out than in 👍
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy Totally agree. Thanks for the reply.
Until I get my rocker plate for my atom I will keep default settings I like to grind the gears just not on a stationary bike.
Thanks for the clip though as spent the weekend pondering. Too much time on my hands I guess
Cheers Rob 🙏 I too keep the WattBike on the standard 22 gears (I think there is an 11 option). And if your preference is to grind on the climb, then 100% is the way to go 😅 but I think the standard setting is 50% in Zwift. I’ll be interested to hear what you think of the rocker plate
Great video! My Kickr trainer came with a 11-28 tooth rear cassette. But to simulate maybe a 30 or 32 ring at the back could I maybe reduce it to 80 or 90 percent to replicate a bigger gear at the back??
Hi Dino - thanks ever so much. I reckon reduce to 75% and see if you can turn a cadence of 80-85rpm on a climb with a gradient where you would be able to spin the same cadence in real life on your bike with a 32 on the rear. In my experience 75%-80% represented a 32. But will differ from trainer to trainer
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy thank you! I’m so glad I now understand this option. I really thought it was just a handicap advantage thing. On second thought I realised I ride in real life with the same rear cassette ratio so I might leave it at max where I’ve had it since the start and see what happens when I finally am able to upgrade my bike and wheels from the default one you start with 😂 I think that might be another reason the gears feel a bit off or heavy in general. Thanks again
@@dinoaustralia7752 pleasure
Great stuff as always Phil.
Quick tech question, what do you use to hold the iPad on the bike? Looking for a holder myself!
Hi Harry - the WattBike Atom comes with a built in holder, that adjusts to hold anything from an iPhone to iPad. So apologies, I can’t recommend a separate holder 👍
A video on a wattbike fit would be good? Thanks for the content so far
Cheers Jonathan - I will do that soon. But in the mean time check out the second half of my video Ultimate Test! Zwift & WattBike vs Peleton - and you’ll see a good review of my Atom 👍
Great vid Phil , just out of interest pre buying a watty , does it show your gears on screen Zwift or is it something you’ve added to show gearing in this video
#Ride on
Thanks ever so much peebee 🙏 When I connect to Zwift using my iPad or iPhone, the gears show up on the top right (automatic - nothing to do with me !) But for some reason when I race for the live streams on the PC, I don’t see them. I have loved my WattBike - and hope you enjoy yours 💯
Great explanation 👌
Thanks Keith - thats hugely appreciated 🙏
Cracking stuff as ever Phill! How did you get on with the Pinarello Prince if you don’t mind me asking?
Thanks Saracen 🙏 - thats hugely appreciated. I really loved the Prince, it was about the same weight as my C60, but was comfortable and climbed well. I’m not the best bike handler - so can’t say I threw it into the corners on the descent. But The Garda Bike Hotel know what they are doing - and stock the Pinerello Prince, Nitro and F12 - I was impressed 👍
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy great to hear. I’ve been eyeing one up I must admit...
Just went back and rewatched your Italy trip followed by your Alpe d’Heuz and Innsbruck climbs. Chapeau on your efforts sir
Very nice video and explanation, I'm totally on the same page as you, I want the gradient spank the crap out of my legs just like it does outside. (having a Kickr climb makes it even more realistic)
I think what seem to confuse a lot of people is racers saying they use TD to tweak their gear ratio, but in reality it's just as Zwift explains it... it's the gradient you tweak, so that 10% climb is actually only 5% at 50% TD... they just don't want to admit they make it easier for themselves 😝(I'm kidding of course, it's not a cheating if everyone can do it... right?)
Like you say, A watt is a watt no matter what(t).
Keep up the nice work!
Hi.A watt may be a watt but watts are created differently. Put it this way Which do you think would be harder..Lifting a 200kg weight above your head once, or lifting a 20kg weight 10 times ??..Both require the same amount of power ( watts ) but one would be a lot harder ( perhaps impossible ) than the other !!!
Cheers Rides of Japan 🙏 - super kind of you ! Agreed the Zwift definition about flattening out the gradient is correct, and I think sums up why its harder to apply the same gearing indoors and out and get the same results. It’s harder out. I do think the fittest riders with biggest W/kg won’t often run out of gears on Zwift - 100% or 50% because they can turn the crank fast at high watts - but for the rest of us who want their power indoors to translate outside on the climb, I agree 75%-100% is about right depending on what gearing you have on your road bike . Thanks for your kind support 💯
That’s a really clever analogy Steve - pure genius 👌 As someone who loves the gym, and could grind out high rep sets with reasonable weight, but had very poor 1RM - it resonates well !
We should do some of my favourite climbs when you get over to Tuscany!
Sure David - sounds great 💯 . Am hoping the UK Government will let us travel and the Italian Government will let us arrive ! Hope all good Sir 👍
@Jameson Leon or better still, go for bike ride in the great outdoors!
According to your findings, watts are not watts then because the same power is more difficult at TD 100%. How do we resolve conservation of energy with lower TD when power is used to determine how much energy has been expended?
Thats a very good question kodiakpb 💯 . I think the power is the power - but the body is using more energy to produce it when standing, and creating more muscular fatigue when grinding. So this means more wasted energy and / or reaching the point of too high a HR or too much fatigue earlier. So this to me is why I use the 100% - to get used to the rhythm being broken up and better able to mix up the different riding styles and cadence to produce a given power 👍
Interesting, I hadn’t thought about efficiencies...were you able to replicate the seated efficiency outside?
I do agree that 100% TD is more lifelike but In my experience the TD makes no difference going uphill, but does going down.
At 100% TD there isnt enough resistance to push 300W especially with steep slopes. However with lower TD there is more or no resistance so 300W can be maintaned.
For races i do better with lower TD (typically 25%) but train with 100% for the realism.
Very interesting Chris🙏 - I think that the impact of TD varies by turbo / smart bike from all the comments. I find plenty of resistance to push into at 100%. And I do experience the same as you on the descent . Also the more I think about Zwift racing - the more I agree with your conclusion to ride sub 100% - because it’s too much of a disadvantage vs other riders to stay 100 👍
When I have long climbs at or above 10% gradient (in the real world), I can't spin comfortably any faster than 76 rpm I have to get out of the saddle. Im glad to see I'm not the only one. I wish Zwift was just a bit more realistic
Thanks for sharing your own experience🙏 , Ric - as you say it’s good to know many of us are similar. I do find that for me 100% does feel pretty similar in terms of cadence on the climb and seating vs standing etc 👍
Ric, try RGT - Premium. Upload a GPX file to create a magic road and away you go. I like Zwift, however turning more of a game every ride.
Phill, Leet Hill real ride data (from before) vs 100% RGT magic road?
@@chrissinclair6086 Good idea, but I'm already on Zwift and Rouvy. Not likely to start a 3rd option. Thanks for the suggestion though
Hi phil ? Thanks for another informative video!! 😊,could you please advise me what trainer difficulty you think I should be on, im 52 only been cycling since may 20! In the outdoors most hills feel like im towing a caravan going up them! W/kg swift is normally around 2.0-2.3😩, thanks for any advice you can give mate 👍
Nice work for taking up cycling Keith 💯👌 - you’ll be a lot fitter and healthier for it in 12months time if you persist. If you want to ride the steeper climbs on Zwift - at 2-2.3W/kg I’d advise 50%, because at 100% the cadence may be too low and tough on your knees - and avoiding injury is important. It would be the same if you were outdoors and continually slowly grinding up steep inclines. But as your fitness improves and your w/kg increases, you cadence at higher power will increase. And over time you can compare your cadence and general comfort on the climbs on Zwift with similar gradients outdoors, and decide if it feels easier inside vs out - and then adjust your TD progressively if it feels too easy in. Key at this stage is to enjoy the cycling indoors and out, and through progress comes motivation to keep going and improve.👍
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy
Thanks so much mate for your reply appreciate it 👍
My pleasure Keith - spring is coming !! 💯
My 'take' on this is that for real world long steep climbs, lower gears would be more appropriate.
💯 Ted 💯 ! So often in eg The Fred Whitton or Exmore Hardest Hundred, I saw people grinding up these climbs with a 28 on the back. I use a 30 or 32 depending on the bike👍
I just purchased a Kickr after years of using a basic Mag wheel on trainer and I was totally unaware that "trainer difficulty" adjustment was even a thing with regards to smart units until I was setting this unit up, I fully expected 10% grade to be just that unless your unit has a lower max grade available of course.
I run a compact with a 32t-34t rear in the real world as I am not a whippet and I like to ride with a higher cadence and I know I will run out of gears on certain Zwift routes as I would in the real world and I will have to deal with it in the same way.
I purchased the smart unit as I want to start doing some races and I am now in two minds as how to setup my unit when racing, Out of the box I set it up to be 100% TD as that will mean constant gear changes as in the real world and hearing folks say they are racing at vastly different TD has thrown me a bit, I do not want to get spat out the back due to a settings tweak "that everyone is doing", or are their races that use a standardised TD limits so everyone is in the same boat relevant to equipment of course?. Or as you say just set it to 50% TD when racing??.. Kinda ironic that I have come across this now as I didn't even look at racing using my old setup as I wanted to make sure I was on a level playing field to then find a pleather of seemingly acceptable tweaks that riders are using..
Superb vid BTW
Thanks ever so much HobScotch - that’s massively appreciated 🙏. If your intent is for the racing and training to translate to outside riding then I use 75% -100% to replicate a 32-30 on the rear (which I have on my road bikes) and run out of gears about the right time on Zwift as the gradient changes. If you want only to be competitive in Zwift races then run 10-30% - because this is what others are doing because it’s easier. My preference is to mirror the outside 💯
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy Thanks for getting back to me, I have been hammering the climbs the last few weeks on Zwift and RGT and have come to the conclusion I will be sticking to 100% TD, I will simply accept the potential disadvantage in exchange for the real world gains when it comes to racing. Have a safe one.
More armchair critique: it's time to get one of those articulated mounts for your voice microphone. The s/n ratio with fan noise is well, less than optimal. As it stands, your dulcet tones are nearly overwhelmed by the fan/bike noises. (My credentials as an audio engineer for 15 years notwithstanding.)
Cheers Cameron - nice idea 🙏. I’ll look into that - I thought the same on a couple of recent edits 👍
when I decided to go from 30% to 100% TD, I lost 20 watts of ftp indoor, because the pedaling pattern is really not identical, even if the output power is similar.
At 30 or even 50 TD you take advantage of the momentum given to each pedal stroke, while at 100 TD, it is necessary to press harder every time you pass the high point of the pedal.
And on a 12% slope, that’s when you feel the weight of your bike (or abdominal fat!). I think the 300 watts really feel different on high percentages, between 30TD or 100TD.
Thats exactly my experience Jerome 💯 - and because I want to get better at riding outside on the climb, thats why I go with 100%👍 I hugely appreciate you sharing your own perspective on this 🙏
So... same watts at both, more manageable cadence. Have my difficulty at around 60ish% and find Zwift harder than real world. I will say I have not compared it as thoroughly as you did. Feel like I push a bigger outside and work on higher cadence inside. That’s probably due to living in Florida!!
For sure Brian - same watts but easier to sustain the rapid cadence on the steeper climbs 💯 And based on my experience of riding in Florida, it’s pretty flat big ring all the way, so TD won’t make much of an impact 👍
My takeaway from this is that road bikes are wayyy over-geared for the vast majority of users. Take me for example, 34/32 gearing and not at all fit, anything 8% or higher and I'm grinding in the 32, a 40 or bigger cassette would be better. spin to win.
I think you make a great point Derek 🙏 - I too only ever use the biggest gear on the flatter crit races, and am more prone to running out of options on the climb! Hence I converted both of mine to easier gearing - 32 rear cassette on the Colnago and 30 on the Wilier . Spin indeed to win!! 💪
the problem with zwift is it's hard to tell when a hill is coming up so you have to change gears really fast, outside you can simply SEE the hills. Constantly shifting indoors is annoying as hell.
Agreed Darin - I too sometimes visually miss the change in gradient on Zwift. Hopefully we get a decent spring to enjoy outside 🤞
How do you get Zwift to display your gear change up in the left corner underneath your power/cadence/HR data?
Hi jspaceman - it’s specific to the WattBike Atom, but only when I am displaying Zwift on the iPad. If on the laptop I don’t get the gears! Not sure why 🙃
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy Thanks. I thought maybe you had the Shimano D-fly unit and that was transmitting gear data to Zwift.
Nice comparison, Phill! Was this part of the Bro Science Series? ;)
While I do acknowledge and agree with what you said, as to why TD doesn't really matter most of the time, I do still think that it does make a difference for how you deploy that power. Especially if you want to try to replicate realistic conditions and feelings outdoors, most of us don't have piles upon piles of cassettes to change between. Besides, you kept it fairly reasonable just doing 50 and 100%, but in my experience the people on Zwift who argue the most for TD not mattering are the people who ride and race at 0% TD, even if it may be AdZ or VenTop. Again, what type of gearing would you realistically need to throw on to do that cadence and power deployment up those climbs?
Ps. What a camera man duo, Paul and Davide. Come to think of it...where do I bet on the next pickup for the WLC roster? ;P
Thanks Lord - that’s hugely appreciated Sir 🙏. Yes - it’s a little Broscience 🧪 in the name of Zwift 😅. And for sure for most riders - we’ll run out of gears outdoors on the longer steeper climbs - even with a 32 on the back. But for the strongest - they have superior fitness and power to turn the gear seated - so I can see why sub 100% will be realistic for them 💯
So what you are saying is that we will be out of the saddle a lot during the “Fred” haha... ok got it lol 😂
😂 Simon - indeed we are. The level of concern is ... HIGH. It will be my hardest ever challenge on a bike. And fingers crossed we get to ride it 🤞
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy fingers and toes.. haha.. just checked my bike and I have a 11-25 on the back.. may need to get myself an 11-32 for this.. 😀😀😀
@@simonbrown3993 I think that could be a very prudent decision 💯😁
On 100% from day one (but i got a 12/30 cassette.)
Nice one Danny - I personally believe that translates better to your outdoor fitness if you run out of small gears on a similar gradient on Zwift vs IRL. I’ve a 30 on the back of my Wilier, and 100% translates well for me 💯
Please,where can i find this course on Zwift?
You have to join a time trial event for Bologna: 'Zwift Time Trial Tuesdays' or 'Zwift Fast Fridays'
@@swooping4320 Thx 👍
Cheers Swooping 🙏
Swooping beat me to it , Miroslav - definitely worth checking it out 💯
I can see why you do it, but surely the real fix is getting lower gears on the outside bike. Or just picking routes where you can pedal in your lowest gear.. e.g if a cyclist could only sustain 200 odd watts then perhaps there's little point going to Italian mountains in the first place. Where I live there is a short section of one hill that you have to stand and stomp and it's rarely worth going there. You gain little or nothing from it, except perhaps a higher risk of injury. I wouldn't travel to italy to expand the length of time I was doing the knee breaking stuff. And similarly I see no reason to configure zwift to try and turn my bike into a gym machine either. YMMV, clearly you are happy to stomp. I note mostly in pro cycling they ride the bike - although they have some extreme sections with stomping on some of the climbs. So, personally I would still configure zwift so I can pedal the bike on all the routes I do (with the virtual gearing the ratios are wide enough you can probably use 100% for everything now anyway)
The real problem is that the "climbing setups" your describe are still too hard for normal people, and they're way better than they were in the 1980s (42x21 gaaaaaa)! Things improved dramaticaly when triple chainrings became common in road bikes in the 90s, but never really caught on, and was a distinctly unfashionable "low end bike thing" by about 2005. The compact setup with the lowest gear 34x30 is not bad, but as you show , still not quite enough, results in more chain drops when shifting the front (unless you have Di2) than the triple with a 30 granny ring mated to a cassette with a 25 or even 28 tooth big cog. An now the push to 1x setups, avoids the chain drops, but do normal people understand they need to sacrifice top speed and swap in a smaller chainring to be able to climb? Do bike shops tell people? Nope, they do not. Ride what the pros ride and suffer! The Zwift difficulty slider absolutely lets people live in a fantasy world where their bikes have lower effective gearing. Maybe that will help change things in the real world?
Cheers Jody - really appreciate your insight 🙏💯. And I couldn’t agree more. I’m in Tenerife at the moment - with a range of climbs - some lovely consistent low gradient and some super steep and unrelenting. I’ve got a hire bike with a compact and a 32, and as soon as the gradient is above 8% my cadence is sub 85 rpm (at about 3.5W/kg - 4W/kg) and once much above 10% it’s 70-75 rpm and I need to regularly stand . I agree that depending on the gearing the rider has in real life - the majority of people could not spin up the equivalent climbs on Zwift (especially Ventop / Bologna / Radio Tower / Reverse Innsbruck KOM / Reverse epic ). In real life I can stay seated and spin 80-90rpm up Alpe d’Huez on my Wilier with a semi compact and a 30 on the rear . But still grind or stand for the steeper ramps (again at 3.5-4W/kg). 👍
Phil the Supreme...Lord of Zwift ,Leader of all City&Tower Bridge bike lanes,Grande Master of Tesco 1/2 baguettes with tuna...how is your recovering post procedure going...when can your vast audience and as well your sponsors&investors expect a good vlog with nutrition guides??? your clients are getting quite nervous as their sales have dropped considerable due your very poor PR performance of their products...greetings to Jayne as well.
Good to hear from you Rui - agent to the wannabe fitness stars, and gateway to all the biggest brands ✊ Recovery has gone well thanks - and am back training, with hopefully the first training vlog back tomorrow, to chart how much fitness I did or didn’t lose over the course of 11 days off the bike 💪. Yes - viewings are down, and imaginary sponsors are losing confidence 😂
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy Phil the Great...you're vast audience expects u now to weight at least 68kg...that means u must keep with our agreed diet of warm carb meals and full baguettes with tuna...not 1/2 baguettes any more...waiting very much to see your next vlog with more on deck products because sponsors don't award medals for 2nd or 3rd places...be well brave heart...
I promise to do better on the warm baguette front - but can I start with 3/4 and work my way up to a whole one 😋😂. Yes - sponsors will start to feel a bit better about life shortly . Stay healthy Sir 💯
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy Phil the Brave Heart Lord of Zwift Grande Master of Tesco baguettes...u want to start with a 3/4 of a baguette??? u are not feeling well tonight 4sure...get those Ice Spiced Buns done immediately!!!
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😂 Mike - 💪
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Nice work Ryan 💪 - you have the comments segment once again Sir 👑
@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy Thank you, Phill🙂