Zwift Trainer Difficulty: Faster Climbing on Zwift? // 350W Lama Lab Test
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- The Zwift Trainer Difficulty put to the test up Watopia Wall - Same watts, same conditions, one lap with the setting at 100%, the next at 0%. Does it have any impact on my in-game speed? Remember to click SUBSCRIBE to support this RUclips channel: bit.ly/3aUph9W
Watopia Wall Lap #1 - 354W 2:18
Watopia Wall Lap #2 - 352W 2:20
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#zwift #cycling #fitness
The best way I can express the setting is:
If the same power is put out at 0% and 100% you will cover the same segment in the same time BUT the gears you use will be different. The slider is a virtual cassette IMO...
This is what I've been searching for. Just hooked up everything yesterday and I am riding around in 52/11 like it's nothing...and I certainly can't do that in RL. Was trying to figure out if I needed to adjust the Kickr or the setting in Zwift, so I'll try this tomorrow.
Did you calibrate the trainer? I actually feel it’s slightly harder than real life cycling
I agree. I find it harder to maintain wattage on climbs than on flats in Zwift. Opposite in real life.
Haha, I put an 11-32 cassette, to climb alpe du zwift. Default 50% setting. I could have just popped the slider back to about 25% :-D
Read about the slider, but up until this video I never understood it. Best explanation. TY Lama! :)
It’s a gear selector! Plain and simple. If you can’t ride up a hill in Zwift because your front ring(s) are HUGE then lower the Difficulty in Zwift. If your front ring(s) are small then increase difficulty. Zwift gives you things so you don’t have to regear your bike. RIDE ON!
Pretty impressive to be talking 'seemingly easily' with a heart rate of 180! Motivational stuff
I may be wrong, but it still seems like the best way to get folks to understand the slider is to equate it to swapping out the bike's (or trainer's) cassette. Without the slider, you'd be forced to swap cassettes when going, for example, between Volcano Flat and Alpe du Zwift. The slider is like a virtual cassette swap. Just as in the real world, changing a cassette doesn't change the climb's gradient but it certainly changes how you approach the climb.
That would indeed make a lot more sense, call it cassette swap and just add an hint like "Heading for the hills? swap to a bigger cassette to spin!"
Emmett Pate This is how I worked it out for myself. I rode Alpe d Huez once with a triple chain blade set and once with a compact. I found Alpe du Zwift hard on a 39-25 combo and much better using a 34-25. That’s when I thought the difficulty slider which is always set to 75 might just make that difference
Emmett Pate, so glad you said this. I watched this because I’m out of gears and was thinking about buying a new cassette. But I’ll just tweak this setting instead!
Emmett Pate, so glad you said this. I watched this because I’m out of gears and was thinking about buying a new cassette. But I’ll just tweak this setting instead!
Nice video but this simple comment is what makes it make sense. Just saying, the only difference is how it feels in the legs(?), doesn’t explain anything. Saying its like changing cassettes makes perfect sense and is understood. That said, Love the videos you do!
Having done similar tests with 100%, 0% and 50% up the Epic KOM, the real benefit that I also see for lower % is the fact you don't run out of gears on the block. Keeps the chain straighter! Reduces the little & big combo for long periods and allows better control of cadence. Leaving at 50% feels right, but for races 20% to reduce the gear changes 👍
Clive King spot on!
There’s a benefit to increased flywheel speed/momentum. It means the whole system is less sensitive to whatever disjoint pedaling style you have. It’s why trainers with tiny flywheels and strong resistance units almost always feel like pedaling through sand. You’re forced to work different muscles (calves/hamstrings) and while the total amount of work is the same, those smaller muscles tend to fatigue / give out faster.
so you're saying a bigger gear on a Neo or a Kickr would be better than a smaller gear? So less ''trainer difficulty"? You think this translates to ERG mode , too?
Joop van Roy it doesn't translate to erg mode. That's completely set by restitance of workout or none if freeride. As someone else has commented here, harder the resistance the further up the block you go which generally slows the cadence as well. It's all about the feel :)
Joop, reducing trainer difficulty allows you to use bigger gear ratios to output the same power/cadence. This has a few effects. As Clive mentioned, you can potentially have your chain in the middle of the cassette more often...it's more efficient, reduces wear on your drivetrain and it's quieter too. Also as I mentioned in a reply, it means the flywheel is spinning faster (has more momentum.) This allows your pedaling to be more free while spinning with high resistance at low flywheel speed forces you to pedal in a rounder style that exhausts smaller muscles like your calves and hamstrings.
Watching you hold 350 and not having any difficulty breathing reminds me of watching Beachbody instructor Shaun T talk through the insanity workouts. Excellent video and outstanding job on both of those climbs.
Cadence changes ! you feel your legs in a different way, because your cadence increases when you slide the difficulty towards 0%. Also the range of available gears you can use on your bike decreases. So it's easier to spin out of the available gears you have on your bike. If you move the slider to 100% your cadence decreases because there is more resistance from the trainer. Also the range of available gears on your bike increases in this instance. So it's harder to spin out of the available gears you have on your bike. You still need to output same wattage to achieve same speed and time goals, but what varies is the cadence at which you ride.
An interesting test would be to do the kom based on feel and cover up the power data, and see how fast you do it on each setting.
Just tried the same test and I much prefer 0%. Its much easier to keep steady power and cadence. I used to think this was kind of unsporting until I heard one of the In The Pens podcast guys saying they always race with 0%. Sweet.
Hi Richard ..... Totally agree. 0% flattens the hills but you still have to get watts up BUT at 0% your avatar will fly downhills with no pedal input......therefore 0% is not a flat road so also it does not turn your smart trainer into a dumb trainer. Look at the end of this vid where Shane does a U turn down the hill.........
Great video. That was me with the KOM 😂
The 1:30something? That’s Flying! 500-600w
Yeah 1:39. Averaged about 560 watts up it. Love ur videos 👍
Domenic Paolilli Averaged 560 watts lol how did u feel after that??
@@DomenicPaolilli 560 W for 1:39 - impressive!
What's that in w/kg? Epic time.
I struggled with a sort of pulsing of difficulty feeling when on long steep climbs like Alpe du Zwift - every two or three revolutions it would spin out a little and then go back to what felt harder. I reached out to the trainer manufacturer for help and they advised backing the trainer difficulty. They told me "The Trainer Difficulty setting doesn't actually make the ride/workout harder or easier. What it actually does is change the amplitude of the resistance changes." I backed it off and hey presto, smother feeling all the way to the top.
Lots of people call anything but 100% cheating, but actually, by spinning out a little with the trainer set to 100%, I was actually gaining a moments respite each time, so really, for me 100% was cheating.
Great demonstration and it helps me understand. Big difference which should be worth mentioning is the influence on the cadence max and min has.
Am I the only one who keeps it on 100% because I'd rather feel the changes in gradient more as its more immersive and challenging?
Nice video, thx! I fully agree that the total energy spent is independent of the trainer difficulty setting. However, in practice there are also transient effects playing a role. With trainer difficulty set at 100%, when I hit a steep section, I do not immediately change to a lighter gear but I keep pedaling at the same cadence and consequently increasing my power output for some seconds. In the same way, after finishing a steep section, I do change to a heavier gear, but there are always some seconds where my power output drops. So for me, with trainer difficulty set at 100%, I see more variation in my power output graph than with training difficulty set at 0%. This does have a negative effect on total performance. It's the reason that "normalized power" has been invented, providing a more realistic way of representing a rider's workload (so also performance) than average power. Of course, it's my own choice to do this "delayed gear shifting", but I could imagine many others do the same.
Seems like you could call it the "spin---->mash" setting.
Finally a way i can understand it!
Every time it starts raining in zwift in one of your videos, I keep waiting for Von to run in with a squirt gun and start plastering you!!! ...immersion... nyuk! nyuk! nyuk!
I leave it at 100% with a 50/34 and 11-32 (2x9 Sora set up).... If I tackle the Stelvio or Ventoux on Wahoo RGT I'll consider lowering TD to 75% which is to take into consideration that if I ever did these mountains in reality I'd probably swap out for an 11/36 or even 11/40 cassette.... I don't mind working the gears on a hilly course- keeps you focussed on the view ahead and the profile, and probably ensures a more fair and even wear on the cassette rather than sticking to just a few gears (or worse in ERG, one gear....)
how do you change them
Have to say, as a slightly heavier guy (84.8 kg), I like 50%. For races I’ll put it slightly lower so I’m not as shocked by grade changes, basically 40%-ish.
It's the same time because it's the same work, however, the effort is very different, much easier to hold x watts on 1 constant resistance that to respond to changes, effort will shift with gradients and cadence/gearing will follow, that means that different muscles and energy systems will be more or less used
When going downhill with the difficulty set easier the flywheel never backs off on your tire, so you don't get much of a break in the legs going down hill, in a real life scenario you're probably going to be taking your legs off the pedals sometimes especially in a draft, today I lowered the difficulty almost to zero for a race and pedaling the whole time really burnt the sugar up good for the whole 28 minutes. Setting it lower is ok for TT flat type of courses but for hilly/descents it's not the greatest. You just need to find the sweetspot for your gear ratio, I have a 9speed with a Tacx Vortex and it changes gradients too fast, so I like to keep it around 20%. Even at 50% the gradient changes aren't gradual.
After so long, I finally understood why I never got to coast downhill like how others describe it. My difficulty is set to 0% and it is a consistent hard pedalling both up and downhill and I never knew it was due to this! :D
Shane's cadence up the hill was 79 rpm @ 100% and 86 rpm @ 0%. For me the trainer difficulty makes it easier on the knees at lower settings.
Just to clarify - You're discussing 'the feels', not the in-game effect.
understood. my knees feel better :)
@@nezbian Technically, 100% shifting to a lower gear could get your the same feeling as 0% at a higher gear ... The real change is the gear you need to put out a specific power at a specific cadence. So long as you get a gear with a high enough cadence, your knees won't feel bad regardless of whether you achieve this with a low gear high trainer difficulty or high gear low trainer difficulty. In a sense, the higher trainer difficulty just translates to more shifting.
@@okreidieh Right! And more shifting on the Alpe, for example, can be more challenging as loss of power is inevitable going from 10% or higher to almost flat then back to 10at the switchbacks. I find my fatigue occurs at the switchbacks at 100%. Ven-top however, if I remember correctly doesn’t have the grade changes so I end up getting into a groove and stay with it till the end.
My understanding is that trainer difficulty can adjust how you produce those watts ( torque x cadence). 100% you need more torque and less cadence (check video, watts and speed are the same but the mean rpm are like 70-80 on 100% and 80-90 on 0%), at 0% you need more cadence. Time, speed and wattage will be the same. This can affect your gearing but that is how I understand it. Even his heart rate was aprox. the same.
I started using Zwift (and a trainer) like 2 weeks/1month, I ride at the default 50%, being a heavy rider I use more power on the legs rather than rpm. I notice that my gears always run out, I tend to use the heavier gears (big ring in the front, smallers at the back). I will try to adjust the trainer difficulty so I can take more advantage of my gears
Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m new to this and only searched this now.
If my trainer only makes 6% incline, am I riding on a discount everytime Zwift goes above 6%?
What this shows is that watts are watts when it comes to in-game speed. When it comes to how you as a rider produce those watts, that's very subjective. Some riders are more efficient at lower RPM, some at higher RPM. If you're on a trainer that can only reach 6% simulation, that's all the physical resistance you'll feel. In game your avatar is subjected to the gradients as shown on screen and will be slower at 12% than 6% at the same power.
I use a 23 tooth straight block on my drivo and lower the trainer difficulty to about 70 percent. This is to make it similar to a 32 cassette on steep climbs. The drivo is slow to change resistance so having a tighter ratio helps it along making gradient changes and make it less drastic on the drivo. Also this increases flywheel speed in climbing ranges. The drivo is more content to hold me back and not slip on steep sections at low cadence.
Lowering the setting essentially changes your gears on the bike. I live in flat country so my bike gearing isn't set up for 10%+ climbs. Lowering the setting to < 50% alleviates that issue without having to install a new drivetrain just for a virtual ride.
Joop van Roy at least somebody gets it!!!
i've not problems...i got a long cage shimano 11-32 on my bike
Yes.. but also makes for slower descents I have tried it..
"Trainer Dificulty" is a misnomer.. "Grade Simulation" would be a better name for it... If you hit a 10% grade with it set at 50% Zwift will tell your trainer to simulate a 5% grade. etc...etc...
Haha 218 it takes me like 10 minutes to get up that damn hill :-)
Loved the video ( and the setup). I normally run just a bit under 100%. Around 80% derefed thru a pragamatic approach of gears,cadance and enjoying a climb.
Shane you’re a bloody legend. Simo.
I go 100% for races. Climbs are where the attacks generally happen and you want the trainer to give you that feedback rather than having to shift gears to put out more power. If you ride at 0% diff and don't shift on the grades the pack will fly right past you.
I have found that on rides like the AHDR humpday ride I fare better in the after party on 80% trainer difficulty rather than the default of 50% because I can push harder into the resistance on the little rises. Even though the average power required is the same for both settings I think i produce power better when I need to generate torque into little power climbs rather than increase the cadence. I'm sure other people would have opposite experience.
I feel the same. new to zwift but on flatter routes I always have the trainer to 100%, just feels right. I dont know if I could climb the longer, steeper climbs like this, but 5% to 8% is ok. I'll give it a whirl on a biggie, might change my mind.
Don't know why it's posted in my wife's name. I,m Bob
Hi Shane. I am 55 years of age (5' 8" and 150lbs) and at this late stage of my life I am enjoying road cycling. I have almost 52 years of martial arts in me, a ton of wear and tear and surgeries on my knees. Regardless I dream of hitting a steady 300w and currently on 13 rides on Zwift I average only 130W. Yesterday I rode my first race 12.5 miles with 700+ climb. At start of race 37 guys shot like rockets in 6 seconds vanished from my sight. I took off with another guy who took off with me and at the end he was 5 minutes ahead of me. I finished in 39th place with 52 people behind me. My difficulty level was set to 75% from the standard 50%. In the Zwift videos I heard the higher you place the bar the more realistic the climbs will me. I cannot believe I have no legs left after so much martial art dedication and I still hope to do positively good as I always set sights on realism at my age but also prove to myself I am not average. Thank you for reading
So I conducted a similar test today as I’m still somewhat skeptical. Been on Zwift for over two years and every single ride has been at 100% with flat Florida roads 53/39 & 11/28 gearing. The alp is a grind and best time is 69 minutes. My power would decrease as the climb progressed. Today I did it with the slider moved to about 75% to simulate the feel of an 11/32. I beat my time by 2 minutes and kept my power up almost until the end. This on the back of 25 laps of the volcano circuit the day before. So with less than fresh legs I still best my best time. I guess my hang up is if it feels easier in the legs I should be able to put more power down which increases my speed.
Slower cadence recruits muscles differently, and you should be more efficient when not grinding. So a long climb should be easier, in that sense, on the easier trainer setting despite the fact that the same wattage will get you the same time up Alpe du Zwift no matter what setting you use.
All that really proves is that doing 25 laps of the volcano gave you a nice little bump in fitness.
This is where zwift could do with a lap button.
+1. I was about to suggest "borrowing" the lap button from a head unit (by connecting it to the power meter in parallel) but looking the stats GPLama came within 2W b/w the two efforts so not a biggie in this case. Super impressive consistency, GPLama!
At first, I thought that this setting was useless, but later on I found out that it is exremely helpful. I change it a lot depending on my inteded ride effort.
Hi Shane, nice to see that you’ve made a video about something we discussed a few days ago 👍🏻👏🏻
i just started zwift trial on a volt so ill be checking out your vids thanks good content.
Cool vid Shane, always wondered if there was a difference.
One similar lama lab test that would be interesting would be on pedal stroke analysis using the vectors (or other pedal power meters) testing how heart rate changes with differing pedal styles but generating the same watts. So standing vs sitting vs rounded stroke vs stomping. If you get what I mean? The objective to identify pedalling efficiency. 👍🏼
It would identify pedaling efficiency, but only for Lama, and only at the wattages tested and at his current training load. :)
lowering the difficulty pretty much makes you increase your RPM's. you have to produce the same wattage, so lowering the difficulty means upping the RPM's. your example here proved that too...you were doing 73RPMs on the first go, then 86 on the second go at the same location of the climb and producing the same wattage and virtual speed.
yup he was lower 70s more at 100% and higher 80,s with 0%
But very different gear guys..
I agree. I think of the slider as a virtual cassette change.
Training this winter, thinking about doing all my rides at 100%. Want to make sure I'm ready for the on off on off efforts
As always great video Shane and the best explanation of trainer difficulty I have seen. Much easier to understand.
Having watched this video I did notice that with trainer difficulty at Max you were averaging 350 watts and 70-80rpm cadence and speeds of approx 19-20kph, with difficulty at ‘0’ your average cadence was 80-89 rpm to maintain the 350watts and HR was higher
He was on the second effort so he would have fatigued and he had more gear options at 0
@@cornishalps9870 Hard to make conclusion on that. For me i prefer 70-75 rpm cadence on the climb. it actually lower the heart rate down compare to 90 rpm, for a condition you don't climb too much over FTP to fatigue out the leg too fast. Try on Ven-top 90+ minutes climb and see...
I have ride 100% trainer level all the time. I want to keep realism level perfect as possible. It's part of a cycling to feel pain in a legs. Gives a pleasure ;).
Juha Lehtinen While I do enjoy some immersion, 100% grade simulation of a virtual road is not one of my requirements. I want some feel in races and fast group rides so I can react on ramps, escalators, etc. but that’s about it. I can get my 100% realism outside.
yoog it's true that there is a good reasons to change difficulty settings including those you mentioned. One good reason is tyre slippage issues with some wheel on trainers. Lower the settings will help prevent that problem.
Still not 100% sure I understand. Let me know if I got this right. At 100% you would need to use a gear just like you would in real life climbing at 7% to produce 350 watts. At 0% you could use whatever gear, even 50x11 and spin it up to produce the 350 watts.
That's right.
At 0%, you actually made the smart trainer a dumb trainer
Ian Cruz Yes. The guys on dumb trainers fly away from you down the hills. It’s a necessary evil to make Zwift appealing to the masses.
Adam Mills hey fuck you , my dumb trainer and wahoo sensors only cost me 100$ and they sure as hell work well
@@Dennis4523 That escalated quickly... I think the main point that we all must remember is that the game interprets wattage. Wattage, no matter how expensive the trainer setup is, is consistent and that is what makes it a great tool for all levels of cyclists to train at. I think Adam's complaint is that the program makes it impossible for him to produce 350 watts on a 10% downhill grade, but this is exactly the same problem as real life it is just that everyone is on the same road. (I have a dumb setup too) They get an incredibly realistic feel for the ride and their drafting experience is way better than ours. Hell, I would give up the 30 second descent in every ride for the other hour to be more realistic and have the same feel as a group ride if I would shell out the money.
Does Zwift have a chart that shows how the percentage changes affect your relative gearing? For example, if the lowest gear on your cassette is 28, does lowering from 100% to 80% make that a virtual 30 or 32, or does 0% make it a virtual 42 cog? If I was going to lower the percentage, I would want to know what my new gearing is so I can relate it to outdoor riding.
Why? Just ride and work it out as you go.
I did wonder too. 🤔 Thanks for the great vid Shane.
My 2 cents. I believe there is one big difference that this video did not capture, especially for light people: the flywheel momentum. Assume you are climbing and want to keep 250watts. Assume you make a big acceleration, then you stop pedalling for, say two secs to rest a bit. When you start pedalling again, the flywheel is almost still or close to it, and i think it takes much more effort and discomfort to get back to your average target power.
That’s not relevant to what I was showing here. How you produce power is subjective. Same power = same times. Regardless of trainer difficulty.
Good vid! Yeah ‘Watts is Watts’ and Zwift bases it’s calculations on Watts (x weight). Be aware though that higher trainer resistance / higher gear at lower cadence (for same Watts) has a different physiological impact than lower resistance/lower gear. The body will fatigue quicker (Watts will drop) with higher resistance. Arguably 🙂
How someone produces watts or responds to effort is a different topic.
It's a lot easier on a lower trainer difficulty for those of us who can only manage half that power output and would otherwise run out of gears! Try the test with a CAT D rider who might have yo grind away at 50 to 60rpm. Would they end up slower yhsn the guy on a lower trainer difficulty who can maintain 85rpm?
PS, as many have said you are a legend. I can maintain 350w for just about 1 minute after which there is no way I would be talking!
The gear changes so the cadence changes . One side benefits a high cadence the other a low cadence . It effectively gives you a broader range of gears .
Yep. It gives the ability to use more gears ... but the game doesn’t care. It’s all watts (and a few other things) that contribute to your in-game speed.
I equate the Zwift trainer difficulty settings as 'gears'. At 100%, I'm riding bike with a 53/39 chainring and 11-25 cogs, versus a 52/36 chainrings & 11-32 cogs at 50%. Its really only noticeable on climbs (and descents)
Would be good to explain the reverse impact on descents and how racers use lower settings so the don’t get so much free wheel effect and can generate more watts downhill
Actually I am pretty sure you generate more watts downhill with 100% difficulty, and able to travel faster.
@@alextasch8114 it does , downhill you wont spin out so you can hold great raw watts which in zwift means great spped. raw wattage = greater speed
"It should be a little bit easier to hold 350W through here." Yeah, lol, speak for yourself!!!
atanasg I reckon I'd last about a minute at that power
Nice! According to my power curve my best is 45sec 😳
Its almost like having more gears in the pocket turning the difficulty to less than 100%? Being able to spin the legs in the same gear you have to grind when set to 100%... the wattage might be the same just the cadence possible in the same gear changes?
Bingo!
If I run 100% i run out of gears. Even my granny gear makes me push more wattage than I generally want to on the steep climbs. Even at 50% which is what I normally run, I will occasionally run out of gears. You have to be pretty fit to ride Alp Du Zwift at 100% at any sort of decent cadence and efficiency. But you can spin up it at 200watts 90rpm or even lower if you want with the trainer difficulty lower.
@@lkb3rd Just did Ven-top climb at 100% difficulty yesterday. I use 2nd lowest gear (i believe 27). still get 200 watt with 70 rpm. 30 (actual lowest) won't help improve cadence much - just try that on real 8% grade hill too ). However I prefer 100% setting as I want to practice to climb real mountain in the future - and so far I think it's pretty accurate resistance to my feeling when I go for real hill climbs. Surprisingly i found 70 rpm is pretty comfortable for me rather than forcing myself to spin at 90 rpm. Not sure why... bad habit? or actually better economy and efficiency?
@@benjapolcycling I'm keen to replicate and train for outdoor hills like you. Are you keeping the difficulty at 100% so you are prepared for the actual hills?
@@tullywhiteman4894 yes as of now always 100%. I don't live in a hilly area, highest hill around here is only 10% and 3 minutes climb max so it's a good training on zwift.
It doesn't make a difference with a huge asterisk that supposes you'll be able to turn the cranks at a reasonable cadence. This is crucial in races where you want to keep your glycogen reserves as high as possible for the final
I'm not every fit....... at 90kg...... i can barely maintain a AVG 200w (2.2w/kg).....
I set my Gravat 2 trainer at 25% difficulty.....
So with that slider to zero it would be like cycling on a non interactive smart trainer, like for example the Elite Turbo Muin. Is that right?
Exactly
We should get a Lama army Jersey on Zwift!
Great💪
You didn't say which you liked more. Any preference?
Riding outside is always better :)
I think he said around 75% in another video?
Big argument on Zwift Riders (FB) after the Ineos race up the Alpe. Someone was claiming Rohan won because he had is difficulty slider set to ZERO (but had no proof). Needless to say there was a lot of fun being had in the responses. Someone ultimately posted a link to this video, and it seems to have quieted things down.
Jim, watts are watts in the virtual world. Correct. However the physical toll is different in the real world, especially when a large enough flywheel (or simulated flywheel) is used. That momentum functions as a buffer/filter that smooths out your power phases. Eliminating micro-accelerations in your pedaling ultimately slows the rate of fatigue. If Rohan was using a low or even zero setting on TD, I could almost guarantee you his time would be better on AdZ because flat terrain at high speed is where he puts out his best power. He is adapted to those kinds of efforts. Basically he'd be able to do, say, 420W up AdZ with TD at 0%, but maybe only 395W with TD at 100%. Something like that.
What difference does it make? If you are out on the road do you have to have a specific cassette on your bike? No. You can do what you like. It's when you start cheating about your height and your weight that you are breaking the rules.
@@user-fk8rb8ue5h If going all out on AdZ it certainly can make a difference. Like @yoog mentions there’s fatigue In micro-accelerations from many grade and gear changes. Also, at some extreme grades like 16% I cannot keep a 80 rpm up, so I’m adding to my large muscle torque fatigue and forcing smaller muscles to jump in.
Nice video. It helped me to understand how it works. Thanks.
So, the bigger question. If you had to climb 5% for 3 or 4 hours, which setting are you going with? Would seem to me that the preferred option would be lower difficulty results in higher cadence, less latic acid, longer ability to pedal.
I think the rain slowed you down on the second lap. If it were dry you’d have been 10 seconds faster. LOL
Great stuff as always! Love yer videos!
as I see it. if you have a 12/25 casette you set it low. if you have a 11/32 you set it high. so it simulate a low medium or high gear :)
I find if the resistance is too low, like below 50%, I spin out too easy going into sprints. I prefer about 75-80%. I also will change the setting based on the race if I'm looking for a result.
Hi Lama, I just got a smart trainer and I watched this video for the second time. My new trainer is the Tacx Flow - probably the chepaest smart trainer on the market at the moment - and it has maximal gradient simulation of 6%. I thought that if I'd set that trainer difficulty slider to 100% it would just (as obvious) simulate everything up to 6%, but I also thought that if I'd change that slider to for example 50%, it would give me that real 6% grade simulation on a virtual 12% slope (so literally it would seem like it's able to give me wider range of resistance levels). I thing it sounds logical, but today I've tried that for the first time and it always stops giving me resistance after I reach virtual slope of 6%, eventhough the trainer is (or at least should be) able to simulate steeper slopes at the time. Could you please check that for me (ideally on some lower end trainer like my Tacx Flow) if it really is this kind of 'stupid' or is it just my problem? Thank you for your answer.
Hi Jan, sorry to resurrect an old question, but I've just bought a Tacx Vortex which simulates slopes up to 8% and when I heard about trainer difficulty setting I thought exactly the same thing as you - setting to 50% should in theory allow the Vortex to simulate slopes up to 18% on Zwift. I've been searching about on line to find an answer without success - did you ever get to the bottom of this?
@@paulmackereth5018 Hi, I started racing cyclocross the season after I wrote the comment, so now I tend to ride outside even if the weather is nowhere near nice and use the trainer for just a few mostly easy hour-long off-season rides between end of January to begging of March when I want to avoid the hills if possible. So I let it set to 100% and am okay with not riding up the slopes of Alpe du Zwift or Mont Ventoux and if I find myself on the Epic KOM or somewhere else with steeper gradient than my trainer allows, I don't care that much about not getting the correct numbers. I haven't found any setting which would allow us to do what we wanted. It's surely an issue only in Zwift's code which can't be to hard to be fixed in probably less than an hour, just someone of their developers would have to notice our problem.
The real issue with the slider is that if it's hurting more you won't maintain that power output. I guess it's about preferred cadence. I want to be up about 80/85 when climbing - when my legs are spinning faster I'm putting down more power.
So, you could almost simulate the resistance change while in "off" by going up a gear when the incline goes up, because then you need more power to maintain the cadence (getting that leg feel)
I always go with the following. If you have 11+ gears I set to 100%. Anything less I proportionally (roughly) decrease it. No gears I would set to zero or close to it.
I've seen a video that states that adjusting the difficulty slider down from 100% is just like adding more teeth to your cassette (so it's just like virtually swapping out your cassette). Seems to be the easiest way to think about it.
That's an easy way to think about it, yes. Technically what's happening is a little different.
5:09 Got eeem!
This is one big problems of virtual cycling, this data should be visible in game, people are smashing times by holding steady efforts and that can't be compared to times with simulated gradients
makes huge difference in rolling circuits where 0% riders solo forward right after the summit point.
Shane, are you a world class biker? It looks so easy for you. I’m an 82 year old “athlete” and I am having difficulty even maintaining 150 watts. Am I doing something wrong or am I just that pathetic? I was still doing ultramarathons until last year so I believe I’m in pretty good condition. Any thoughts?Also, I cannot locate the slider bar for trainer difficulty. Thanks. Tom Reich.
Best talk to a coach/physiologist about your performance levels. They'll be in a much better position to give you useful feedback.
It's true that regardless of setting Zwift treats a given watt level as the same. That being said I would argue that lowering the difficulty will make it easier to hold higher watts for most riders going up a climb given you can hold a higher cadence/wheel speed (increased angular inertia) which is much easier on the legs. Therefore a lower setting should translate to faster climbing.
Ed R And would that not make the next climb easier because the resistance was less on the previous
Darin N I would say, the second climb should have had less of a physical impact on Shane. I think the impact really only starts to be relevant on longer/steeper climbs when you are pushing at the top of your watt range.
It's very individual thing. What you wrote may be true for majority but bigger resistance and lower inertia may be actually preferred by some to produce bigger power.
michwoz sure everyone is different and will have their preferences. Also complexing the issue is a given setting will have a different impact depending on the trainer you are using. For instance, I ride using emotion rollers, they use a lighter flywheel, so rely on increased angular momentum. For me dropping the resistance slider allows me to get things spinning up faster resulting in a over all smoother power curve/Rd. feel. Someone using a Neo or Kicker with their heavier flywheels, relative to my setup can likely run the resistance setting much higher and get the same rd. feel.
Seconded..........I'd like to see this test using Alpe du Zwift With trainer @ 100% your thighs would be screaming !!!
O.N. the second run the cadence is about 10% higher. Which means you are training your vasculary system more. On the first run you are training misculary system. At your fitness level you probably don't notice this. You can achieve higher watts by either fast spinning or harder pedalling.
Maybe retry in erg mode with watts set to 350 and steady cadence on both runs. I estimate that the 0 run will be slower.
How will it be slower? In game speed is w/kg. Cadence doesn’t factor into game speed. Only human feel/ability (a different topic)
Or the other way to look at it is that at 0%, it feels like a road bike with an infinite selection of gear ratio's so that you can always spin at your favorite RPM. Then when you set it at 100%, it's like a road bike with a straight block and you have no choice but to mash the pedals in your lowest gear.
For dumb trainers, zwift should give you an option to choose a set of cassette ratio's and then zwift would suggest a cadence to match your suggested wattage (or an arbitrary slope/cadence ratio set by the 0-100% difficulty setting). You would need to manually shift to get a matching slope/cadence ratio.
(disclaimer: I don't actually use zwift yet so maybe some of this is already available)
Thanks 😊
So if someone rides up a mountain on 0% difficulty they're going to feel like they're riding a flat course but their avatar is likely going slower, assuming the same RPMs? I mean, the watts at 50rpms with the difficulty set to zero should be far lower than the watts at 50 rpms with the trainer set to 100%, right?
Yes
Great video! What about descending? Sounds like a trainer difficulty of 0% could prevent you from spinning out, and therefore reach a wattage you couldn't normally reach in real life / at 100% difficulty.
Yep.
I’m still a little confused ... I get the watts need to be the same but does the higher difficulty level mean that it’s harder on your legs? I guess that’s when you work through the gears right to make it easier? do you have a general preferred setting that’s best of both worlds? ... or a preferred setting for training vs racing vs a more chilled ride?
Would like to see a down hill vid , when racing the higher % is great uphill but down hill is brutal , spin fest and loose ground
I think in race mode you need it, at 100% to max out most watts on attacks on climbs to stay with the lead group or break 💪💪 without dropping through the cassette 🧐
Hmm. Agreed to a point. Different trainers have different maximums which complicates this.
Great work Shane - hopefully this will clear it up for some people - #hells500
My issue with the difficulty setting is that I am able to spin, let's say, 250W in the flat but not while climbing, where 200W is already a triumph. I ride on a Wahoo Kickr Snap and setting the difficulty low allows me to put a lot more watts on the bike, and therefore climb faster.
Alejandro de la Ossa that tells you that you need a bigger cassette for that climb.
So if the wattage and time stayed the same, but trainer feel changed, does that mean cadence also changed?
Only if the same gear was used. A mechanical analogy would be riding up with a T39 chainring vs a T34 chainring
Would the trainer difficulty setting affect FTP test? I mean my Zwift difficulty setting is at max right now. I know it feels harder while riding, but while doing FTP test ERG mode is off, does it mean it will be much harder to reach your FTP goal or not?
Sorry if this was addressed earlier, but have you tried using Instant instead of 3 sec average for power display? I find the feedback is better for maintaining a given power during intervals which might seem counterintuitive, but the smoothing creates a lag that I end up chasing more. The refresh rate on the display seems the same, just more accurate.
This does not have any impact on the in-game speed or pacing. 3s average is simply a visual change to what's shown on screen. Workout mode in Zwift will only show 1s average at this point. It ignores the setting.
Does a lower setting normalize to make flats a bit more "challenging" gearing-wise? Running into an issue where I can only generate good power on flats in my highest gears. The theory would say I can then drop the trainer difficulty setting and get more power in lower gears on flats and declines. Does that work out that way?
So theoretically, on the next TDZ stage is Watopias Road to Sky route which is a 3400ft climb- people can cheat the climb by turning down their trainer? I feel like you shouldn’t be allowed to do that when In an event
I have an elite drivo 1 trainer, and my trainer seems to be harder than my friends tacx Neo. My concern is that my trainer is really stiff, when I go downhill I still have to pedal with 36/23 and sometimes 36/19 and I still feel my trainer really hard like if I was using 50/15 on a decent. I can’t use 50/15 on flats because it turns like a rock it’s humanly impossible to turn my cranks for a sprint... In fact I’ve never used the big chainring for more that 5 seconds without hearing my gears, bike or chain crack.
The most I can put is 758 watts and that’s because it gets to a point that I can’t rotate my cranks due to the resistance being so high on my trainer. My “trainer difficulty” is set to 100% but believe me I’ll pay someone to try into turning the cranks.
I tried everything from greasing the belt to adjusting it, emails to elite here and there but nothing seems to fix it. I weight 160lbs and my height is 5’10” I’ve been riding for 8 years now, and I consider myself more than a regular joe. Today I climbed a 17% hill on Watopia, in the mountain route, my gearings were 36/25 all the time, the cranks were so stiff that I had to literally push my knees down because the cranks were so hard to turn, and the watts were like 145 or so 🤷🏻♂️. That’s stupid, I ride my local route which has a hill that is 16% , 223km long called Sugar Loaf here in Clermont FL, and I go up that hill on the same gearings and i tackle it very comfortable sometimes when I feel good with 36/23, I don’t know what it is but I might have to weight cheat to see if I can bring the resistance down a little because I might need a knee replacement soon if I keep having this crap all the way to 100%
Let's be honest - Anything over 13% for any period of time is a horrible experience. 17% isn't fun. Outside that's a leg snapper. If you're concerned the Elite trainer isn't realistic, that's one for Elite support. There's likely to be queries about what weight you have set within the trainer itself (MyETraining App) and if your using Bluetooth to Zwift, etc... but I'll leave this to their support team.
Wouldn’t the setting at 100% mean more shifting and thereby power loss through the action of the shifts themselves? (Versus completing the climb in a single gear)
Different power means a different time up the climb... if you're really sluggish though gear changes.
Shane Miller - GPLama That’s what I mean...a combo of shift time causing slight power variations, non-ideal chain line etc. I think it also depends on the climb profile too...the slider set to 100% “should” feel more realistic (outside like) and hopefully mean an easier transition to riding on the road versus the trainer. I have mine on the default 50% but running a 1x 54T on the TT bike on the trainer.
So when riding a Kickr bike the tilt function doesn’t work properly when you adjust the trainer difficulty to less than max. The hill gradient goes down.
That’s correct. By design.
@@gplama
Right because the gradient has changed. 😀
What i noticed is that, your cadence was slower at max setting. In off, you had to pedal 10-15 rpm faster to hold 350w.
Cadence has no impact on in-game speed. I could have done 5rpm at 350W and it would still result in the same time up the climb.
Great video! But an unrelated question, would you mind helping me with your video set up to get you greenscreened and displaying your zwift within the same session? Thanks.
The basics of the setup is covered here: ruclips.net/video/bZFifEorWnY/видео.html
I'm using a wahoo kikr V5. I don't seem to have the option to adjust in my zwift setting. Am I missing something? Is this not an option with this trainer?
Hey Shane, enjoy the channel. Just got a Kickr 18 and CLIMB and my first ride on Zwift was fun, yet I found myself in a range of gears that I normally wouldn't expect. I was spending A LOT of time in 52/13-17 whereas I normally wouldn't be able to handle it. In theory, if I increase the difficulty slider in Zwift this would effectively put me back into a more RL range of gears, correct? I didn't touch my small chainring on my first ride in London. I also performed a spindown after 10 minutes of riding as recommended. Thanks!
The slider at 100% (all the way to the right) should give you the 'most realistic' experience with gradient simulation, and gearing you'll have to dive through.
Careful Shane. You'll give ZA ideas. 1 minute intervals was bad enough. Next thing you know, we'll be doing 2 minutes at 120%, 130%, 140% and 2 free rides hard as we can go.
??? You didn't state whether it felt harder with the slider on max!!!
In other words, was it harder to maintain 350 watts when the slider was on max?
Irrelevant to my in-game speed. ~350W = ~2:18 up the hill. Both runs. Showing that the slider has no impact on in-game speed. 350W is 350W energy wise. How I, you, or the next rider generates those watt and their associated feeling in doing do isn't all that relevant for what I was demonstrating.
Thanks for the reply. However, I still don't get it. If you can feel going up hills more, then doesn't that mean you have to work harder to maintain the same speed or watts.
Otherwise, what is the point of this setting?
Take the human out of the equation. To move from A to B in 2mins18seconds requires ~350W (at my weight) - regardless of the slider settings. That's what I was showing here. There's a misconception the setting (which changes the gradient simulation feel) made people ride faster or slower in-game. There's two realities to take into account here. Real (me) and in-game (Zwift).
I don't have a smart trainer, hence why I am missing data. I still don't get why the setting exists. If the setting is meant to make you feel the hills, then why do you not have to work harder to achieve the same pace? Otherwise it must mean the game counteracts your "slower" speed going up hills, by making the ride in effect on zwift a little faster , even though in reality it is the same speed as with lower slider setting?
I'm going to have to call it a day here sorry. Apologies I can't get the explanation right.
I personally find leaving it at 100% makes it feel more like real cycling.
And for me the surge in watt at the beginning of the climb (as in real life) helps a little bit too. but opposite is true when the hills flat out the power drops naturally unless you push harder psychologically.
That is exactly what it is. It's just a way of making the cassette more flexible.
I’m still pretty new to Zwift. Just wondering about KOM’s with trainer difficulty settings?? I’ve just got a new Kickr 18
(love it! Your videos made the purchase way easier)
and have noticed my climb times are a bit slower.
(old trainer couldn’t control resistance)
Does Zwift show you information on what riders were using when achieving KOM’s?
What trainer and what difficulty setting etc??
Great channel GPlama
Zwift just cares about w/kg (power/weight). So if you've switched to something with 'more correct' power reporting, then the times may be slower or faster. Zwift know what devices people are using (it's in the data channels) but only report 'power', so we don't see it as riders. I find ~80% to be a good balance of hill simulation. *Again, that 80% does not affect the in-game speed, only my feels in the legs.