If you watch the previous video on Rzhev jumping to 3:09 might be advised, since I give a general introduction for the uninitiated. Ways to support the Channel: paypal.me/mhvis --- patreon.com/mhv/ --- www.subscribestar.com/mhv Wishlist: www.amazon.de/gp/registry/wishlist/3LJIXNJIUXJES/ref=cm_wl_huc_view?language=en_GB Merchandise: teespring.com/stores/military-history-visualized or www.redbubble.com/people/mhvis/shop/
Mars was a diversion. Glantz believes not, but Beevor thinks otherwise. The latter, in his book on the Second World War, looked at the number days Zhukov dedicated to Mars relative to Uranus. If World War Three happened tomorrow I would rather have a Zhukov in my corner. Yes he is brutal, but he is very effective. I believe Glantz made a video praising Zhukov's ruthlessness. I hope you pursue your PhD sir.🇩🇪 :)
Dad commuted by train into NYC in the '60s with a quiet German fellow who eventually mentioned that he was in the Wehrmacht during the war. Dad was in the USAAC/USAAF and in the Pacific and they chat as veterans do. He fought on the eastern front. "It was not 'Hogan's Heroes'." Over months, he mentioned how horrific it was as a machine gunner on the Rzhev (central) front. He thought pulling back each day was part of German strategy. He *had* to pull back every day because the field in front of him, from 20m to the horizon was piled so high with bodies that he could not shoot over or through them.
…No mention of the Operation "Monastery", the Soviet strategic deception game, and the deliberate leak of the "Mars" plans to the Germans as a part of this game.
It was in this battle, when the newly appointed Model entered the 9th Army HQ, his staff looked at him and asked: 'What reserves do you bring?' 'MYSELF'
Model was so hardcore that he killed himself in April 1945 when he and the remnants of Army Group B were surrounded by the Americans in the Ruhr Pocket.
Actually he committed suicide because Nazi propaganda painted him and Army Group B as traitors. His final words were 'Has everything been done to justify our actions in the light of history? What can there be left for a commander in defeat?"
@@SouthParkCows88 German commanders had to feel like they were fighting their own side towards the end of it all, when cornered the dogs turned on each other.
Fuzzy Dunlop Model fought and held multiple fronts for Wehrmacht through the stormiest of time. Almost every major Allies victories or Germans disaster post 1942 had his hands on it: Kursk, Bagration, Falaise, Bulge. He must have been very worn out, tired, exhausted after strings of defeat despite his best efforts. He might not be the most competent, brilliant, influential nor nicest amongst the Wehrmacht field marshals, but he’s my favourite commander of the war.
@@lc9245 Another factor was that Model was going to be turned over to the Russians after the war (It was an agreement between US/UK and Russia). Model opted to end his life rather then be a Russian prisoner.
Fantastic video, read Rzhev Slaughterhouse last year and was stunned by the casualties on both sides. Russians gave so much blood just to even take the city of Rhzev (on the volga) from the Grossman's 6. Infanterie Division. Learning about this battle it felt like verdun the conditions described by both sides are shocking at times. Through mud, blood, snow and heat of the russian summer both sides fought it out.
Its was one of the biggest and Deadly battles of the war. Zukhov arrogance, on underrated the Whermacht forces in the center, was, an Big, Big mistake, the Rússians paid Dearly. Tremendous amount of casualities.
Along with Bo, Bismarck and David Fletcher, Bernhardt is always a thumbs up from me. Not because of what he says, or in-depth knowledge, but his enthusiasm and presentation skills are excellent. And surprisingly not only for couch potatoes like me (who, these days, drifts off into a child-like sleep as soon as I pick up a book - and start reading). Cheers!
"All roads lead to Rome" but all Soviet railroads led to or through Moscow taking Moscow would have caused the Soviets massive problems of Supply and limit their ability to deploy/redeploy troops
Yes, but Soviet factories and logistics hubs had already been sent to the Urals, the USSR was very willing to keep fighting if Moscow fell, but the Germans did not have the oil and suppliers to keep going
Gersimonva's book is a must-have to understand this battle as is Glantz's excellent study of Operation Mars. One point which must be emphasised about Army Group South (A/B) is that their supply lines *east* of the Dneiper were constrained by the rail situation.
5:00 The losses on the Eastern Front are nearly impossible to comprehend, but it is worth noting that 900,000 is the figure sometimes given for the number of troops the Chinese lost during the Korean War.
Yes but we must remember how much larger population Asian countries had. If 300 million Chinese are killed, there are still 300 million left, or far more today. In fact, losses in war could even have helped overpopulated poor nations, altough usually people who die in wars are those who are also valuable peace time, or at least people would die unevenly which would make situation worse, and sudden loss of population is problem for any nation. Still, it is smaller issue to China than for example Germany or even Soviet Union. We always hear how Soviets had enormous manpower, when in reality Soviets had maybe twice (i don't remember exact amount) as much manpower as Germany, but were able to use it better.
@@TheRomanRuler the Chinese had around 500 M population in 1950 but your point still stands. All in all, after the many battles between the Warlords, the different stages of the Civil war and the Second Sion-Japanese war the Chinese still had significantly more people than before the Warlord period
USSR ( Russia now) lost 28,000,000 in WW 2 ( called Great Patriotic War), 18 millions was civilians losses. Now population of biggest country by territory ( "Russia) is very small, only 148 million.
In the Rzhev battles, I think, Zhukov was learning the hard way. He might had an idea how the operation should proceed in order to be successful, but his subordinate commanders lacked their own initiative, got bogged down in battles for their flanks, did not reinforce and drive their spearheads forward to meet each other, so precious time was lost. The Germans meanwhile assembled whatever reserves they could and simply cut off the narrow penetrations the Soviets made, and isolated them. In the book (Zhukov's Greatest Defeat) unfortunately the author does not state if Zhukov indeed trained his army and corps commanders on how these novelty operational-level battles should be fought, and what instructions were delegated to his subordinates. He shouted and threatened his subordinate commanders to drive on, but they mostly thought is was not safe to continue on their own. One could argue that Zhukov overestimated the capabilities of tactical-level units and their performance did not facilitate the development to step-up to operational level that was necessary for the operation to succeed.
One of the problems for Soviets was extensive use of artillery by Germans in Rzhev battle, as they had much more shells prepared, they could easily stop Soviet attacks by firing thousands of shells what Soviets could not do at that moment since they lost many gunpowder and explosvies plants in 1941 and lendlease didn't fully start yet.
>He shouted and threatened his subordinate commanders to drive on, but they mostly thought is was not safe to continue on their own. You have very wrong perception on Zhukov, in reality he actively was in search of new tactics, and wrote many orders describing commanders mistakes and what they should do and what tactics they should use. In case of Rzev he had only one month to prepare the troops. The issue Zhukov had in Rzev was ill-prepared by the previous commander starting position. Zhukov's tactics always were widening of the bridgeheads, before the actual assault, here he had to advance from a small bridgehead left by Konev. Second issue was artillery superiority. Germans had fired twice or trice as many rounds as soviets while being on defense, and 4 times as many as german armies in Stalingrad. Third issue were german panzer reserves that were sent to Rzev instead of Stalingrad, tha were used to stabilise the front. As far as I remember in Rzev germans had twice as many tank division as in Stalingrad and it surroundings.
@@Itoyokofan, I only related what I read in the book. I know he was a hard working man and a scholar. In the book, Glantz describes Zhukov's frustration when his commanders could not achieve their goals, and I believe he was under a lot of pressure. There was also some sort of prestige-related rivalry with the southern front around Stalingrad (I think it was Vasilevski) that was conducting an offensive around the same time. So that is what I wrote about. I am interested to what extent was Zhukov able to train his commanders, and what he learned from this operation.
@@Itoyokofan It really looks to me that Mars and Uranus should be considered together. Either one could turn out to be success, either one could turn out to be failure, depending where Germans would pour most of their reinforcements. Monty always (and I think correctly) claimed that hard fighting for Caen allowed escape south of Cherbourg. I'm not sure why similar narrative is not used when it comes to Rzev-Stalingrad. Probably because so far so few people knew anything about Eastern Front?
@@godweenausten From what I've learned about him is that he'd never force anyone to do smth if there were no tactical or strategical reason. There were 4 consequtive operations planned Mars, Uranus, Jupiter and Saturn. The fact thay Mars failed resulted in Jupiter cancellation, which led to inability to take the strategic initiative up untill Kursk and inducted Saturn failure to encircle A and B army groups by retaking Rostov, which cost even more men to be lost in Kharkov catastrophy later on. So from the strategical point of view he was right.
3:43 Note: The term "cavalry group" (usually under the name of a famous commander of said group, like "Belov group" or "Dovator group") was a reinforced formation that, in adition to the 2 cavalry divisions (though they were "cavalry" in the sense that they rode horses, they were partially motorised and included 1 or 2 light tank battalions each), were reinforced by aditional tank or mechanised brigades. In 1941 and 1942 the Soviets used cavalry as a cheap substitute of motorised infantry, and actually many of those cavalry formations were later "upgraded" into fully mechanised formations.
Hitler's personal experience in war was in the trenches of WWI. Where retreat was disastrous and troops on the ground had no greater strategic understanding. Mobile warfare was taking place in the eastern front, but Hitler was not stationed there. If he had been a corporal in the cavalry, on the eastern front his personal experience would have been different. A costly tactical victory for the Soviets because it was successful attrition warfare.
Star Media published a series "Soviet Storm" covering the war in the East. Rzhev is one of the episodes. Unfortunately, the play list is no longer on their site.
"The Great Patriotic War" by Star Media (English dub) 2011 ruclips.net/video/6CerdjvePsg/видео.html This series covers all aspects of the War in the East.
These videos always make me want to play Hearts of Iron 3 blackice - then i get sad when i remember flaws of HOI3 and try to switch to HOI4 only to remember how it is completely different game to HOI3, only successor in name. Seriouselly i want game that is successor to Hearts of Iron 3 and improves it in every way necessary. I want Hearts of Iron 4, not some WW2 grand strategy game with HOI4 as a name.
same here, I loved Black ICE, but it crashed too often and various other aspects since the engine was too limited. Hearts of Iron 4 is an "Albert Speer"-Simulator for me. I am not really interested in managing the ratio of guns to trucks to panzers... I rather say: I want 6 Panzer Divisions with 2 Panzer Regiments each, etc.
And here they go, millennium kids with their fu..ing games. Have some some heart and respect for dead and imagine a mountain of dead bodies you fuc..ing idiots. Real dead bodies, not the ones on your monitor.
Thank you for covering this topic. I think it puts into even better context the whole situation in the Russian theatre of 1942. Keep up the great work!
I think that sometimes when we talk about these sorts of campaigns, the statistics of casualties become numb to us and I would like to point out how even though on the Eastern Front, where both sides waging war were awful dictatorships, we still must think of the human impact. I think we must think of the atrocities committed against ordinary men, women, and children that only wanted to continue living just like you and me but were killed in a war of destruction. We must also think of the families of these young men that were killed. The mothers who wept because her son was ripped apart by an artillery shell. The children who grew up as orphans because their parents died because of atrocities against civilians. A great video, but something to think about as well.
The glorious part of the war can also be seen after it. With solidiers that walk around without an arm or a leg. The world war 1 veteran who got blind from poison gas. The German solidier after world war 2 who had lost his possessions during the war and only had his army uniform to walk around in the years after the war. All the people who lost a loved one. All persons who constantly gets reminded by horrible memories and dream nightmares for every night for the rest of their lives. All tears and pain.
It was an force that had the mission to hold as many soviets troops away from the other fronts as possible and that mission was definitely accived. Also it did cause 3 to 5 times the loses they received. So yeah 'worth it' I guess ^^
This poem by Aleksandr Trifonovich Tvardovsky is very known and still in the school literature program, so in former USSR countries Rzhev battles is not absolutely unknown. Я убит подо Ржевом, В безымянном болоте, В пятой роте, На левом, При жестоком налете. Я не слышал разрыва И не видел той вспышки, - Точно в пропасть с обрыва - И ни дна, ни покрышки. И во всем этом мире До конца его дней - Ни петлички, Ни лычки С гимнастерки моей... militera.lib.ru/poetry/russian/tvardovsky/02.html
@@paulmanson253 I was killed near Rzhev In a nameless bog, In fifth company, On the Left flank, In a cruel air raid I didn’t hear explosions And did not see the flash Down to an abyss from a cliff No start, no end And in this whole world To the end of its days - Neither patches, nor badges From my tunic you’ll find www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=94853
Former Soviet countries, like Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania were invaded and abused by the red dogs, any poetry speaking of dead Russians should not be recognized by audiences as something sad.
@@fickkyuu6395 Sigh. I dated a girl whose parents were Estonian. Believe me I have read about the nastiness of Stalin and her parents never forgot how they came to the New World as penniless refugees. Instead of engaging in stories of how badly the Baltic countries,and Poland ,and others were treated,this thread is about the strength and endurance of the individual Russian people who fought the Hitlerites in a pitiless war,frequently with bad leadership,and endured. Leave it at that,will you ? Admire the strength it took to lose some 20 million odd casualties and still possess the will to fight. I am no fan of Stalin,but be positive here. OK ?
No we have not a basic overview of the battle of Rzhev, because you don't mention the German casualties ! BTW we have a polish city with a similar name, Rzeszow.
I remember reading in Arthur Liddel-Brown's history of the Second World War that for the entire year of 1942, maps of the front lines published in Western press didn't even have the Rzhev salient mapped out, so British and US ordinary citizens (and possibly even high ranking officers) weren't even aware of this salient.
I think that you and TIK have contradicting sources. In his video "Why No German Reinforcements at Stalingrad?" he points out that Heeresgruppe Mitte looses 146 thousand men in 1942 from july to november and receives almost 192 thousand replacements, while Heeresgruppe A looses 156 thousand men and receives only 100 thousand replacements. EDIT: Is there a Battle of Dubno video coming?
There is a battle already about the name of said battle: Should it be "battle of Dubno", "battle of Brody" or "Brody-Dubno defensive operation" (which was the name the Soviets gave to it)? Personally, I would call it "giant mess between Dubno and Brody", because it was a total mess. At least for the Soviets, it was like "yeah, we should engage the enemy armored forces with our own armored forces, but our own armored units are attached to five different armies under three different army group commands and they lack any kind of direct coordination whatsoever".
I think TIK said Paulus was not given the reinforcements he needed once he was trying to get out of Stalingrad. He was only supplied fuel and food by airlift.
Rzhev gets often overlooked behind Bialystok-Misnk, Kiev, Sevastopol, Charkov, Moscow, Stalingrad, Leningrad and Kursk. But it was the longest large scale battle of the eastern front where both sides used the best units they had and with very severe casualities on both sides. I think thats because both germans and soviets couldnt achieve a decisive victory there unlike in the other battles mentioned before.
"For the center there was a lack of reinforcements". Well you should discuss this with TIK because he claims that Halder sent most reinforcements to the center even when they were direly needed in the South (and he blames Halder for not understanding the importance of Fall Blau and undermining the German war effort by diverting these reinforcements to the sector he though important).
4:28 He already was there, he had taken the command during the defense of Moscow, and actually that offensive operation is often included as an aftermath of the battle of Moscow...
I think this Rzhev Slaughterhouse showed the not-so-pleasant side of Zhukov. Belov (commander of the 1st Guards Cavalry Corps) was chewed out by Zhukov for the former's failure to capture Vyazma, even though Belov did not have the means to fulfill his mission. Efremov (commander of the 33rd Army) committed suicide after his army was encircled and unable to break out. In both cases, the Germans dominated the rail junctions (e.g., Rzhev, Vyazma, Smolensk, Veliki-Luki) which allowed the Germans to hold out and even eliminate pockets of Soviet resistance throughout the summer of 1942. Operation Mars ... while the Soviets had, unlike in the winter of 1941-42, tank and mechanized corps to play around, they were still not adequate against the German defenders, which leads me to think ...... The more heavily forested terrain of Belorussia and Western Russia (contrast them to the Ukraine and Southern Russia) might also have negatively impacted the Soviet operations. Fast forward to summer-autumn of 1943 and the Western Front, under Sokolovski's command, was struggling to advance into Belorussia. (Contrast Sokolovski's lackluster performance with Rokossovski's Central Front after the Battle of Kursk.) Needless to say, unlike the Ukraine, the frontline did not shift as often in the regions west of Moscow, hence allowed the Germans to set up stronger defenses.
Zhukov was a brutal commander, efficient I couldn't say, but Stalin's carelessness channeled through the upper echelons of command and Zhukov showed that.
@@KazzoKiller3890 Yeah. Thinking back about the winter of 1941-42, I think Zhukov was not totally at fault for being callous. If anything, Stalin was even more impatient within the context of the weak Soviet winter counteroffensive. I remember a passage from a book in which Zhukov complained to Shaposhnikov; Stalin had already made his mind yet summoned Zhukov to Moscow for consultation. Oh, well!.
I very much enjoyed this video. Especially your description of the singel operations, results, assesments of the two opposing sides and errors made. I would like to see more videos in this style! Cheers!
The fact that the soviets did not have recon in depth to know the German lines seems like a hole in this story. Having pockets behind the lines and partisans everywhere seems to make this very unlikely. I'm curious to know where that came from
Whenever I find information on this battle it surprises me how much the Germans threw into this area. Case Blau got robbed of precious divisions that could have stemmed the tide in the Caucasus and Stalingrad. And that when either side was about to launch an offensive, the other side would as well a few days before them. It’s so shocking of how much was lost here for so little gain. It’s not like Stalingrad where in the end after all this loss, Germany was thrown away from Caucasus. Here the Germans left without fanfare and pretty sneaky I might add. This battle contradicts almost every stereotype of the German army. Large scale maneuver warfare replaced by dug in soldiers in trenches, large CAS attacks replaced by lines of artillery, “incompetent” Hitler replaced by “always right” generals who wanted to stay right here instead of focusing on Blau. It’s such an anomaly in the war.
Without the salient and inability to take Moscow , Zhukov Et al succeeded in their goal Its sort of a situation of the US Civil War , where Grant changed tactics . It wasn’t so much particular chunks of land valued more than others , take this city vs that city, . Rather , Army Group Center , in what ever condition and what ever circumstance, remained in the cross hairs , much like R E Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia . Kill it, disable it, maim it, bleed it , whatever has to be done to this army Grant , like Zhukov , could make good his loss’s . Model and the Wehrmacht could not .
Do a visualized lector on how the germans actuel executed the fall back from the Rzhevl salient. The rear retreating the night and the center doring the day. Thanks
As to the theoretical about Rzhev forces being moved to other fronts if the salient had been abandoned earlier, I think the severe logistical difficulties facing the Germans in the Volga and Caucasus would have severely limited force deployments there even with more forces available.
I have a portrait in our family of German soldier named Heinz Dietrich Schleiseuer. The back of the photo says in German his name and that he died Battle of the Rhzev. My mother was from Germany and the portrait was part of her family collection of photographs. His ladt name doesn't sound familiar to me as it's not my mother's or grandmother's maiden name. I wish that I would have seen this picture before she passed away so I could ask her who he was and what relation if any to the family he was.
I thought it was interesting that you note that "people might not have heard of these battles." I was actually surprised by that take: I thought the "Rzhev meat-grinder" was rather well-known. I can see where this comes from when compared to much more well-covered battles like Stalingrad, Typhoon, etc. but Rzhev always ranked up there, at least for me. Secondary note: I want to thank you for inspiring me to start my own primary sources-based history channel, as I have just uploaded my first video. :) You're awesome, Bernhard!
I think it might really depend on the "generation", on the other video many pointed out that it is a map in Company of Heroes 2 and also featured heavily the Soviet Storm documentary. Yet, I played COH 2 but well, ignored mostly everything in there that was not gameplay related and Soviet Storm, I never watched. I first heard of Rzhev when Bismarck sent me the link to the book a few years ago. Then again, I am not a "battles" guy and in German military history they are not really "well-featured" as explained in the other video.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Here across the pond, unless you're a university student or professor doing research, this campaign is never taught and few have even heard the name Rhzev. We are taught about Kursk, Stalingrad, Leningrad, Barbarossa, etc. But then again Hurtgen and Colmar are almost never mentioned either.
@@davidtuttle7556 Stalingrad should be taught together with Rzev, because strategically Mars, Uranus and Saturn are connected. Mars consumed german reserves and made Uranus successful, yet soviet heavy losses made Saturn insuccessful, thus leading to Khar'kov's failure. Then in Kursk german losses in Rzhev (and the fact that soviets thought that the major offense would be on the northern face of Kursk buldge) led to a quick stop in german offense in the north and later to quick breach of german defense there, after soviet counteroffense began.
I can't get enough of your videos. I would argue that this is best military history stream on RUclips. If you ever need a pro-bono research assistant for one year, let me know. I'm planning on taking a 1-year sabbatical soon in DEU and would otherwise just be researching for my own interests and fun.
Will you ever do a video on Operation Bagration? It seems like a very interesting battle, showing how far the russian military developed in three years of the war.
@@PointReflex Bagration? wasn't that the famous operation in wich the Ruskies despite having a 2,5 to 1 advantage in almost everything still managed to take more casualties than the Germans?
@@RouGeZH Ah yes, gotta love those wehraboos. Germany managing local numerical superiority being the height of strategy while Russian local numerical superiority was just those barbarian hordes crashing against the superior Aryan defenders. Russia bled for it, but they pretty much buried the Wehrmacht during Bagration. As for taking more losses that's what happens when you attack an entrenched enemy that's still capable to shoot back.
@@TheStephaneAdam You just wrote the usual clap-trap that people without argument uses because they are pissed off by historical reality. Fact: during ww2, not a single army that won an offensive battle on a strategic scale suffered more losses than the defender, except the Red Army. It didn't happen to the Germans in 1940-41-42, to the British in North Africa in 1940-41-42, to the Japanese in China and in South-east Asia in 1941-42, nor to the Wallies in western Europe in 1943-45. The Red army hold the very dubious privilege to be the only army that took more losses than its enemies despite winning large-scale battles. During WW2 there was no correlation between "being in attack" and "suffering higher losses" on a strategic and operational scale. That's a fact and calling people "Wehraboos" won't change it.
Zukov's Biggest and Humiliaiting defeat in ww2. He completly,under estimated the combat habitity, of the Whermacht in the Center, in that period. And Paid Dearly. He and hundreads of thounsands Rússian soldiers. Of course that operation Mars, was overshadow by operation Uranus, in the south. But the sheer amount of russian casualities on operation Mars, put operation Uranus, like a walk in the Park. Of course, operation Uranus, with is strategic objectives, in the end, and in History, Will be to many People, most important, than Operation Mars. But if you look what was achivied, and the final result, was an Tremendous Defeat for the Red Army.. PS : of course what happened in Stalinegrad, put this battle in a second plan, when it was so Violent and Horrendos, that the Rússian high command try to "hide", this horrible Defeat, from the public.
Am familiar with Rzhev battles through study of GrossDeuchland Division (pardon the spelling) was a real thorn in the side for ivan BUT the nazis died like flies trying to hold it..
I challenge the point that the Soviets didn't destroy the units on the salient. Given that they forced so many units into a state which the Germans determined where not even able to properly defend they at least partially achieved that objective. It was a pyrrhic victory at best with the large numbers of Soviet losses, however if they had not been so aggressive and bleed so much of the German forces in the meat grinder then actions around Stalingrad would have been very different.
Gud summarie! Ähmäzing tu hear abaut Rschew! ^^ Aber ehrlich gesagt, Metaler-Bart steht dir nicht so gut, wie der alte 5-Tage-Bart. Sah wesentlich cooler aus! :D (Nur meine bescheidene Meinung...)
i dont know, but isnt it well established that the sovjets attaked first in 1942? they go for Rzhev and for lost the battle of charkov. without charkov there wouldnt be fall blau possible
I'd say it's the most German way to say Stalin and Stalingrad, which in Russian would be spelled as Шталин / Шталинград instead of regular Сталин / Сталинград. XD
I don't think the logic of "if both the Germans and Soviets have more troops for Stalingrad, we should expect the same outcome" really holds up. Doesn't both the defense and the side with higher quality troops scale better as the number of troops per area increases? To make a dumb analogy, it's very obvious in a game like Counter-Strike. The same map can be heavily attacker-favoured in a 3vs3 and heavily defender favoured in a 5vs5, because lower numbers mean more openings and a shallower defense. But raise those numbers and every approach is guarded with significant firepower that even a larger number of attackers can't overcome well. Obviously those factors look quite different in real life and on the scale of an entire theatre, but the basic principles seem to hold up to me.
In reading Russia At War, it seems to be very helpful if youtubers would chart a month-by-month inventory of trucks, tanks, and aircraft. Both the American Lend-Lease of finished product and the Soviet production of product reached full effectiveness only in the Summer of 1943. Any failure of Soviet fighting forces and leadership prior to winter 42-43 ought to be at the feet of Stalin and the Supreme Command ordering generals into impossible attacks. Of course, Stalin was willing to trade the lives of Red Army soldiers for the Nazis. As long as he knew the trade was 1:1, he'd throw 20 million in.
I think that if the Germans redeployed these divisions elsewhere, the Soviets would have launched their major offensive in the Center, pulling those troops back anyway. It would be the battles behind Rzhev - a pre-Bragation in Western Russia. The destruction or pushing back of AGC would expose the flanks of AGN and AGS, so of course reserves would be pulled up to this sector. How successful would it be is impossible to tell
"Stuck out like a sword towards Moscow" typical English fighting the war in print instead of on ground. Word generals like Monty. Why not "it laid in Belarus like a cow plop"?
We in the west often do not seek out the in depth history of WW II fought in the East. Russia and China are too often overlooked in their struggles against invaders. Never forget.
A map would be nice. Question: There was a Russian documentary which included Zukov's "great grandson" as commentator. I watched it a few years ago and now it has disappeared from RUclips. What is the story behind this. Is it because the series was critical at times over decisions made by Stalin and Stavka during 1941-42?
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized I know that Glantz or some other historian gave around total 40 000 casualties for Operation Mars, it seems that number is very similar or a bit higher for two previous offensives.
If you watch the previous video on Rzhev jumping to 3:09 might be advised, since I give a general introduction for the uninitiated.
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No self respecting history fan should skip any part of your videos
These videos are great; thanks for doing them!
Mars was a diversion. Glantz believes not, but Beevor thinks otherwise. The latter, in his book on the Second World War, looked at the number days Zhukov dedicated to Mars relative to Uranus. If World War Three happened tomorrow I would rather have a Zhukov in my corner. Yes he is brutal, but he is very effective. I believe Glantz made a video praising Zhukov's ruthlessness. I hope you pursue your PhD sir.🇩🇪 :)
What role did German airpower make in advance or withdrawal is the best weapon a panzer has is a radio to air ground coordination officer?
Great video the loses of both sides are tragic.
Dad commuted by train into NYC in the '60s with a quiet German fellow who eventually mentioned that he was in the Wehrmacht during the war. Dad was in the USAAC/USAAF and in the Pacific and they chat as veterans do. He fought on the eastern front. "It was not 'Hogan's Heroes'." Over months, he mentioned how horrific it was as a machine gunner on the Rzhev (central) front. He thought pulling back each day was part of German strategy. He *had* to pull back every day because the field in front of him, from 20m to the horizon was piled so high with bodies that he could not shoot over or through them.
It is like magic to hear you say ze Schtallingrad
Aber warum? Gehoeren irdendwie deutsche Stimmen zu der armen Stadt? Didn't work out so well (for them) the last time, Gott sei Dank.
German mäjik
🍄⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️🍄
They both lost.
…No mention of the Operation "Monastery", the Soviet strategic deception game, and the deliberate leak of the "Mars" plans to the Germans as a part of this game.
It was in this battle, when the newly appointed Model entered the 9th Army HQ, his staff looked at him and asked: 'What reserves do you bring?'
'MYSELF'
Model was so hardcore that he killed himself in April 1945 when he and the remnants of Army Group B were surrounded by the Americans in the Ruhr Pocket.
Actually he committed suicide because Nazi propaganda painted him and Army Group B as traitors. His final words were 'Has everything been done to justify our actions in the light of history? What can there be left for a commander in defeat?"
@@SouthParkCows88 German commanders had to feel like they were fighting their own side towards the end of it all, when cornered the dogs turned on each other.
Fuzzy Dunlop Model fought and held multiple fronts for Wehrmacht through the stormiest of time. Almost every major Allies victories or Germans disaster post 1942 had his hands on it: Kursk, Bagration, Falaise, Bulge. He must have been very worn out, tired, exhausted after strings of defeat despite his best efforts. He might not be the most competent, brilliant, influential nor nicest amongst the Wehrmacht field marshals, but he’s my favourite commander of the war.
@@lc9245 Another factor was that Model was going to be turned over to the Russians after the war (It was an agreement between US/UK and Russia). Model opted to end his life rather then be a Russian prisoner.
Fantastic video, read Rzhev Slaughterhouse last year and was stunned by the casualties on both sides. Russians gave so much blood just to even take the city of Rhzev (on the volga) from the Grossman's 6. Infanterie Division. Learning about this battle it felt like verdun the conditions described by both sides are shocking at times. Through mud, blood, snow and heat of the russian summer both sides fought it out.
Its was one of the biggest and Deadly battles of the war.
Zukhov arrogance, on underrated the Whermacht forces in the center, was, an Big, Big mistake, the Rússians paid Dearly. Tremendous amount of casualities.
Its not a fantastic video. Its a guy mumbling with little structure, no visuals, few maps, no insight and a wiki article is more detailed.
@@tonyautoworkxNot visualised has no visuals!?!? Colour me surprised.
Along with Bo, Bismarck and David Fletcher, Bernhardt is always a thumbs up from me. Not because of what he says, or in-depth knowledge, but his enthusiasm and presentation skills are excellent. And surprisingly not only for couch potatoes like me (who, these days, drifts off into a child-like sleep as soon as I pick up a book - and start reading). Cheers!
"All roads lead to Rome" but all Soviet railroads led to or through Moscow taking Moscow would have caused the Soviets massive problems of Supply and limit their ability to deploy/redeploy troops
Yes, but Soviet factories and logistics hubs had already been sent to the Urals, the USSR was very willing to keep fighting if Moscow fell, but the Germans did not have the oil and suppliers to keep going
@@angryman132 they still had oil in 1942. 1943 is another story and that's when they lost that war.
Sounds like a stalemate that neither side was proud of.
4k? Damn man, I can count the hairs on your head!
Very interesting battle, never heard about it before and blast.. I've been missing out.
TheIfifi lol you don't have to count very high!
Pretty sure he does not have a hair anymore, his beard has deposed his hair.
As always, another brilliantly detailed and researched video of a lesser known part of the war in the east. Thank you.
Gersimonva's book is a must-have to understand this battle as is Glantz's excellent study of Operation Mars.
One point which must be emphasised about Army Group South (A/B) is that their supply lines *east* of the Dneiper were constrained by the rail situation.
5:00 The losses on the Eastern Front are nearly impossible to comprehend, but it is worth noting that 900,000 is the figure sometimes given for the number of troops the Chinese lost during the Korean War.
Yes but we must remember how much larger population Asian countries had. If 300 million Chinese are killed, there are still 300 million left, or far more today. In fact, losses in war could even have helped overpopulated poor nations, altough usually people who die in wars are those who are also valuable peace time, or at least people would die unevenly which would make situation worse, and sudden loss of population is problem for any nation. Still, it is smaller issue to China than for example Germany or even Soviet Union. We always hear how Soviets had enormous manpower, when in reality Soviets had maybe twice (i don't remember exact amount) as much manpower as Germany, but were able to use it better.
@@TheRomanRuler the Chinese had around 500 M population in 1950 but your point still stands. All in all, after the many battles between the Warlords, the different stages of the Civil war and the Second Sion-Japanese war the Chinese still had significantly more people than before the Warlord period
I have see figures of up to 3 Million. I guess it depends on your source.
USSR ( Russia now) lost 28,000,000 in WW 2 ( called Great Patriotic War), 18 millions was civilians losses. Now population of biggest country by territory ( "Russia) is very small, only 148 million.
@@ladybug2x2y22z And it has negative birthrate sadly
In the Rzhev battles, I think, Zhukov was learning the hard way. He might had an idea how the operation should proceed in order to be successful, but his subordinate commanders lacked their own initiative, got bogged down in battles for their flanks, did not reinforce and drive their spearheads forward to meet each other, so precious time was lost. The Germans meanwhile assembled whatever reserves they could and simply cut off the narrow penetrations the Soviets made, and isolated them. In the book (Zhukov's Greatest Defeat) unfortunately the author does not state if Zhukov indeed trained his army and corps commanders on how these novelty operational-level battles should be fought, and what instructions were delegated to his subordinates. He shouted and threatened his subordinate commanders to drive on, but they mostly thought is was not safe to continue on their own. One could argue that Zhukov overestimated the capabilities of tactical-level units and their performance did not facilitate the development to step-up to operational level that was necessary for the operation to succeed.
One of the problems for Soviets was extensive use of artillery by Germans in Rzhev battle, as they had much more shells prepared, they could easily stop Soviet attacks by firing thousands of shells what Soviets could not do at that moment since they lost many gunpowder and explosvies plants in 1941 and lendlease didn't fully start yet.
>He shouted and threatened his subordinate commanders to drive on, but they mostly thought is was not safe to continue on their own.
You have very wrong perception on Zhukov, in reality he actively was in search of new tactics, and wrote many orders describing commanders mistakes and what they should do and what tactics they should use. In case of Rzev he had only one month to prepare the troops.
The issue Zhukov had in Rzev was ill-prepared by the previous commander starting position. Zhukov's tactics always were widening of the bridgeheads, before the actual assault, here he had to advance from a small bridgehead left by Konev. Second issue was artillery superiority. Germans had fired twice or trice as many rounds as soviets while being on defense, and 4 times as many as german armies in Stalingrad. Third issue were german panzer reserves that were sent to Rzev instead of Stalingrad, tha were used to stabilise the front. As far as I remember in Rzev germans had twice as many tank division as in Stalingrad and it surroundings.
@@Itoyokofan, I only related what I read in the book. I know he was a hard working man and a scholar. In the book, Glantz describes Zhukov's frustration when his commanders could not achieve their goals, and I believe he was under a lot of pressure. There was also some sort of prestige-related rivalry with the southern front around Stalingrad (I think it was Vasilevski) that was conducting an offensive around the same time. So that is what I wrote about. I am interested to what extent was Zhukov able to train his commanders, and what he learned from this operation.
@@Itoyokofan It really looks to me that Mars and Uranus should be considered together. Either one could turn out to be success, either one could turn out to be failure, depending where Germans would pour most of their reinforcements.
Monty always (and I think correctly) claimed that hard fighting for Caen allowed escape south of Cherbourg. I'm not sure why similar narrative is not used when it comes to Rzev-Stalingrad. Probably because so far so few people knew anything about Eastern Front?
@@godweenausten From what I've learned about him is that he'd never force anyone to do smth if there were no tactical or strategical reason. There were 4 consequtive operations planned Mars, Uranus, Jupiter and Saturn. The fact thay Mars failed resulted in Jupiter cancellation, which led to inability to take the strategic initiative up untill Kursk and inducted Saturn failure to encircle A and B army groups by retaking Rostov, which cost even more men to be lost in Kharkov catastrophy later on.
So from the strategical point of view he was right.
3:43 Note: The term "cavalry group" (usually under the name of a famous commander of said group, like "Belov group" or "Dovator group") was a reinforced formation that, in adition to the 2 cavalry divisions (though they were "cavalry" in the sense that they rode horses, they were partially motorised and included 1 or 2 light tank battalions each), were reinforced by aditional tank or mechanised brigades. In 1941 and 1942 the Soviets used cavalry as a cheap substitute of motorised infantry, and actually many of those cavalry formations were later "upgraded" into fully mechanised formations.
Cavalry is not only a cheap motorised division but also a hard terrain motorised division. They acted very well in forest, swamp and mountain terrain.
Hitler's personal experience in war was in the trenches of WWI. Where retreat was disastrous and troops on the ground had no greater strategic understanding. Mobile warfare was taking place in the eastern front, but Hitler was not stationed there. If he had been a corporal in the cavalry, on the eastern front his personal experience would have been different. A costly tactical victory for the Soviets because it was successful attrition warfare.
Found it NTV ruclips.net/video/5-2Tt5EGXlM/видео.html
Germany did not have the capability to be mobile by 1942
I have yet to find a video that i don't like on this channel
Star Media published a series "Soviet Storm" covering the war in the East. Rzhev is one of the episodes.
Unfortunately, the play list is no longer on their site.
really ?? ruclips.net/video/71IQ2bBY4Y0/видео.html
"The Great Patriotic War" by Star Media (English dub) 2011
ruclips.net/video/6CerdjvePsg/видео.html
This series covers all aspects of the War in the East.
I hope in the future you can redo this video adding maps that display the the changes that took place on the ground.
These videos always make me want to play Hearts of Iron 3 blackice - then i get sad when i remember flaws of HOI3 and try to switch to HOI4 only to remember how it is completely different game to HOI3, only successor in name.
Seriouselly i want game that is successor to Hearts of Iron 3 and improves it in every way necessary. I want Hearts of Iron 4, not some WW2 grand strategy game with HOI4 as a name.
same here, I loved Black ICE, but it crashed too often and various other aspects since the engine was too limited. Hearts of Iron 4 is an "Albert Speer"-Simulator for me. I am not really interested in managing the ratio of guns to trucks to panzers... I rather say: I want 6 Panzer Divisions with 2 Panzer Regiments each, etc.
And here I am, enjoying HoI 1 :-)
It's not the best out of the HoI games but I still love it
And here they go, millennium kids with their fu..ing games. Have some some heart and respect for dead and imagine a mountain of dead bodies you fuc..ing idiots. Real dead bodies, not the ones on your monitor.
Play Grimsbys' War in the East. Way more intricate than HOI 3...which I enjoyed but was too easy as Russians.
@@TheRover70 put on your hibab
The Soviets were literally training their army to be an actual army at this time.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_involving_Poland_against_Russia
Russians were training their army since the 16th century
The Soviet army was very actual in the 30s. The problem is it got caught with its pants down and destroyed in 1941.
migkillerphantom true, you can have trained troops. But without experienced generals and unit leaders, they’re useless.
Callum exactly
They didn't have any left who survived the training in that case. What the hell are you talking about???
Operation Mars is what I know of. I know Glantz wrote a book called Zhukov's greatest defeat which is really controversial.
You sir, are an excellent historian. Love your work.
Thank you for covering this topic. I think it puts into even better context the whole situation in the Russian theatre of 1942. Keep up the great work!
I've heard about this battle that the soviets lacked food and guns to the point that they had to loot fallen comrades and eat horses...
I think that was SOP for both the Soviets and Germans during the entire 4 years of the war.
Apparently if you fry enough lice they taste like popcorn
I think that sometimes when we talk about these sorts of campaigns, the statistics of casualties become numb to us and I would like to point out how even though on the Eastern Front, where both sides waging war were awful dictatorships, we still must think of the human impact. I think we must think of the atrocities committed against ordinary men, women, and children that only wanted to continue living just like you and me but were killed in a war of destruction. We must also think of the families of these young men that were killed. The mothers who wept because her son was ripped apart by an artillery shell. The children who grew up as orphans because their parents died because of atrocities against civilians. A great video, but something to think about as well.
The glorious part of the war can also be seen after it. With solidiers that walk around without an arm or a leg. The world war 1 veteran who got blind from poison gas. The German solidier after world war 2 who had lost his possessions during the war and only had his army uniform to walk around in the years after the war.
All the people who lost a loved one. All persons who constantly gets reminded by horrible memories and dream nightmares for every night for the rest of their lives. All tears and pain.
>both sides waging war were awful dictatorships
Stalin never had dictator powers except in 1941-1946 when GKO was organized for the war time.
A few death is a tragedy 1 million is a statistic. Josef Stalin.
Nah Germany was wayyyy worse.
@@AlexanderSeven SHhhhhh go home tankie no one cares about your opinions
It was an force that had the mission to hold as many soviets troops away from the other fronts as possible and that mission was definitely accived.
Also it did cause 3 to 5 times the loses they received. So yeah 'worth it' I guess ^^
This poem by Aleksandr Trifonovich Tvardovsky is very known and still in the school literature program, so in former USSR countries Rzhev battles is not absolutely unknown.
Я убит подо Ржевом,
В безымянном болоте,
В пятой роте,
На левом,
При жестоком налете.
Я не слышал разрыва
И не видел той вспышки, -
Точно в пропасть с обрыва -
И ни дна, ни покрышки.
И во всем этом мире
До конца его дней -
Ни петлички,
Ни лычки
С гимнастерки моей...
militera.lib.ru/poetry/russian/tvardovsky/02.html
Do us the favour of translating into English please. Not everyone can access translation software at this level. Thanks.
@@paulmanson253
I was killed near Rzhev
In a nameless bog,
In fifth company,
On the Left flank,
In a cruel air raid
I didn’t hear explosions
And did not see the flash
Down to an abyss from a cliff
No start, no end
And in this whole world
To the end of its days -
Neither patches, nor badges
From my tunic you’ll find
www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=94853
I can see why it is still taught in schools. Thanks for that translation.
Powerful images.
Former Soviet countries, like Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania were invaded and abused by the red dogs, any poetry speaking of dead Russians should not be recognized by audiences as something sad.
@@fickkyuu6395 Sigh. I dated a girl whose parents were Estonian. Believe me I have read about the nastiness of Stalin and her parents never forgot how they came to the New World as penniless refugees. Instead of engaging in stories of how badly the Baltic countries,and Poland ,and others were treated,this thread is about the strength and endurance of the individual Russian people who fought the Hitlerites in a pitiless war,frequently with bad leadership,and endured. Leave it at that,will you ? Admire the strength it took to lose some 20 million odd casualties and still possess the will to fight. I am no fan of Stalin,but be positive here. OK ?
No we have not a basic overview of the battle of Rzhev, because you don't mention the German casualties ! BTW we have a polish city with a similar name, Rzeszow.
I remember reading in Arthur Liddel-Brown's history of the Second World War that for the entire year of 1942, maps of the front lines published in Western press didn't even have the Rzhev salient mapped out, so British and US ordinary citizens (and possibly even high ranking officers) weren't even aware of this salient.
I think that you and TIK have contradicting sources. In his video "Why No German Reinforcements at Stalingrad?" he points out that Heeresgruppe Mitte looses 146 thousand men in 1942 from july to november and receives almost 192 thousand replacements, while Heeresgruppe A looses 156 thousand men and receives only 100 thousand replacements.
EDIT: Is there a Battle of Dubno video coming?
There is a battle already about the name of said battle: Should it be "battle of Dubno", "battle of Brody" or "Brody-Dubno defensive operation" (which was the name the Soviets gave to it)? Personally, I would call it "giant mess between Dubno and Brody", because it was a total mess. At least for the Soviets, it was like "yeah, we should engage the enemy armored forces with our own armored forces, but our own armored units are attached to five different armies under three different army group commands and they lack any kind of direct coordination whatsoever".
@Brett Mitchell pretty true.
@Brett Mitchell , TIK isn't an idiot. He puts a lot of effort into what he does. He also owns up to the mistakes that he makes.
I think TIK said Paulus was not given the reinforcements he needed once he was trying to get out of Stalingrad. He was only supplied fuel and food by airlift.
Rzhev gets often overlooked behind Bialystok-Misnk, Kiev, Sevastopol, Charkov, Moscow, Stalingrad, Leningrad and Kursk. But it was the longest large scale battle of the eastern front where both sides used the best units they had and with very severe casualities on both sides.
I think thats because both germans and soviets couldnt achieve a decisive victory there unlike in the other battles mentioned before.
"For the center there was a lack of reinforcements". Well you should discuss this with TIK because he claims that Halder sent most reinforcements to the center even when they were direly needed in the South (and he blames Halder for not understanding the importance of Fall Blau and undermining the German war effort by diverting these reinforcements to the sector he though important).
I think what he means is that, despite reserves being directed to Army Group Centre, overall, German reserves were still struggling to replace losses.
4:28 He already was there, he had taken the command during the defense of Moscow, and actually that offensive operation is often included as an aftermath of the battle of Moscow...
I think this Rzhev Slaughterhouse showed the not-so-pleasant side of Zhukov. Belov (commander of the 1st Guards Cavalry Corps) was chewed out by Zhukov for the former's failure to capture Vyazma, even though Belov did not have the means to fulfill his mission. Efremov (commander of the 33rd Army) committed suicide after his army was encircled and unable to break out. In both cases, the Germans dominated the rail junctions (e.g., Rzhev, Vyazma, Smolensk, Veliki-Luki) which allowed the Germans to hold out and even eliminate pockets of Soviet resistance throughout the summer of 1942.
Operation Mars ... while the Soviets had, unlike in the winter of 1941-42, tank and mechanized corps to play around, they were still not adequate against the German defenders, which leads me to think ......
The more heavily forested terrain of Belorussia and Western Russia (contrast them to the Ukraine and Southern Russia) might also have negatively impacted the Soviet operations. Fast forward to summer-autumn of 1943 and the Western Front, under Sokolovski's command, was struggling to advance into Belorussia. (Contrast Sokolovski's lackluster performance with Rokossovski's Central Front after the Battle of Kursk.) Needless to say, unlike the Ukraine, the frontline did not shift as often in the regions west of Moscow, hence allowed the Germans to set up stronger defenses.
Zhukov was a brutal commander, efficient I couldn't say, but Stalin's carelessness channeled through the upper echelons of command and Zhukov showed that.
@@KazzoKiller3890 Yeah. Thinking back about the winter of 1941-42, I think Zhukov was not totally at fault for being callous. If anything, Stalin was even more impatient within the context of the weak Soviet winter counteroffensive. I remember a passage from a book in which Zhukov complained to Shaposhnikov; Stalin had already made his mind yet summoned Zhukov to Moscow for consultation. Oh, well!.
I very much enjoyed this video. Especially your description of the singel operations, results, assesments of the two opposing sides and errors made. I would like to see more videos in this style!
Cheers!
this excellent explanation makes me look forward to seeing the Rezhev docuemtaries over again, thanks man.
SO sometime time ww2 Eastern Front is as crazy as some battle in warhammwer 40k!
Death Korps of Krieg comes to mind, doesn't it?
@@finderdiler yes they like Soviet military!
@@goodman4966 if you think that you got to look a bit closer how they are dressed my friend
Yes, the only difference that millions of real people died. Somebody's sons, husbands, fathers. Not like your favorite toy soldiers.
Tik are you watching this ? This is how you do it and don’t have to go into so much detail
The fact that the soviets did not have recon in depth to know the German lines seems like a hole in this story. Having pockets behind the lines and partisans everywhere seems to make this very unlikely. I'm curious to know where that came from
Whenever I find information on this battle it surprises me how much the Germans threw into this area. Case Blau got robbed of precious divisions that could have stemmed the tide in the Caucasus and Stalingrad. And that when either side was about to launch an offensive, the other side would as well a few days before them.
It’s so shocking of how much was lost here for so little gain. It’s not like Stalingrad where in the end after all this loss, Germany was thrown away from Caucasus. Here the Germans left without fanfare and pretty sneaky I might add.
This battle contradicts almost every stereotype of the German army. Large scale maneuver warfare replaced by dug in soldiers in trenches, large CAS attacks replaced by lines of artillery, “incompetent” Hitler replaced by “always right” generals who wanted to stay right here instead of focusing on Blau.
It’s such an anomaly in the war.
CAS attacks? Combined arms? huh
Whazzat close air support
The Rzhev salient collapsing could have been just as, perhaps even more, disastrous for the Wehrmach as Stalingrad tho.
@@TheNorthie thx.
One could also argue that Case Blue robbed precious divisions that could have stemmed the tide in the Rzhev area and driven towards Moscow...
Without the salient and inability to take Moscow , Zhukov Et al succeeded in their goal
Its sort of a situation of the US Civil War , where Grant changed tactics . It wasn’t so much particular chunks of land valued more than others , take this city vs that city, . Rather , Army Group Center , in what ever condition and what ever circumstance, remained in the cross hairs , much like R E Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia .
Kill it, disable it, maim it, bleed it , whatever has to be done to this army
Grant , like Zhukov , could make good his loss’s . Model and the Wehrmacht could not .
Do a visualized lector on how the germans actuel executed the fall back from the Rzhevl salient. The rear retreating the night and the center doring the day. Thanks
Actually this channel is pretty visualised as I can clearly see you!
I mistakenly thought Mars was the southern pincer of the Stalingrad encirclement, in spite of watching the Glantz lecture numerous times :D
That was Saturn, or better Small Saturn
As to the theoretical about Rzhev forces being moved to other fronts if the salient had been abandoned earlier, I think the severe logistical difficulties facing the Germans in the Volga and Caucasus would have severely limited force deployments there even with more forces available.
6:30 - my sex life in a nutshell
wtf
I have a portrait in our family of German soldier named Heinz Dietrich Schleiseuer. The back of the photo says in German his name and that he died Battle of the Rhzev. My mother was from Germany and the portrait was part of her family collection of photographs. His ladt name doesn't sound familiar to me as it's not my mother's or grandmother's maiden name. I wish that I would have seen this picture before she passed away so I could ask her who he was and what relation if any to the family he was.
I like the point about Hitler drawing the wrong conclusions. That is something you don't hear very often.
Counterattack?? We ARE Counterattacking!!! (from Cross of Iron, 1977)
I thought it was interesting that you note that "people might not have heard of these battles." I was actually surprised by that take: I thought the "Rzhev meat-grinder" was rather well-known. I can see where this comes from when compared to much more well-covered battles like Stalingrad, Typhoon, etc. but Rzhev always ranked up there, at least for me.
Secondary note: I want to thank you for inspiring me to start my own primary sources-based history channel, as I have just uploaded my first video. :) You're awesome, Bernhard!
I think it might really depend on the "generation", on the other video many pointed out that it is a map in Company of Heroes 2 and also featured heavily the Soviet Storm documentary. Yet, I played COH 2 but well, ignored mostly everything in there that was not gameplay related and Soviet Storm, I never watched. I first heard of Rzhev when Bismarck sent me the link to the book a few years ago. Then again, I am not a "battles" guy and in German military history they are not really "well-featured" as explained in the other video.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Here across the pond, unless you're a university student or professor doing research, this campaign is never taught and few have even heard the name Rhzev. We are taught about Kursk, Stalingrad, Leningrad, Barbarossa, etc. But then again Hurtgen and Colmar are almost never mentioned either.
@@davidtuttle7556 Stalingrad should be taught together with Rzev, because strategically Mars, Uranus and Saturn are connected. Mars consumed german reserves and made Uranus successful, yet soviet heavy losses made Saturn insuccessful, thus leading to Khar'kov's failure.
Then in Kursk german losses in Rzhev (and the fact that soviets thought that the major offense would be on the northern face of Kursk buldge) led to a quick stop in german offense in the north and later to quick breach of german defense there, after soviet counteroffense began.
@@Itoyokofan im confused. Wasnt Saturn the secondary flank offensive during Stalingrad?
A train load of grain fed half a million people. The US sent untold amounts of these by transport to Russia.
„Books were used, but not harmed in any way.“
😄
;)
I can't get enough of your videos. I would argue that this is best military history stream on RUclips. If you ever need a pro-bono research assistant for one year, let me know. I'm planning on taking a 1-year sabbatical soon in DEU and would otherwise just be researching for my own interests and fun.
I visited Rzhev on a canoe trip along the upper Volga in 1992.
Will you ever do a video on Operation Bagration? It seems like a very interesting battle, showing how far the russian military developed in three years of the war.
Bagration? wasn't that the famous operation in wich the Ruskies eated the Wehrmacht like a Pacman high on pills?
@@PointReflex Bagration? wasn't that the famous operation in wich the Ruskies despite having a 2,5 to 1 advantage in almost everything still managed to take more casualties than the Germans?
@@RouGeZH Ah yes, gotta love those wehraboos. Germany managing local numerical superiority being the height of strategy while Russian local numerical superiority was just those barbarian hordes crashing against the superior Aryan defenders.
Russia bled for it, but they pretty much buried the Wehrmacht during Bagration. As for taking more losses that's what happens when you attack an entrenched enemy that's still capable to shoot back.
It's almost like since the invention of the machinegun the prepared defender is expected to inflict more casualties than it suffers.
@@TheStephaneAdam You just wrote the usual clap-trap that people without argument uses because they are pissed off by historical reality.
Fact: during ww2, not a single army that won an offensive battle on a strategic scale suffered more losses than the defender, except the Red Army. It didn't happen to the Germans in 1940-41-42, to the British in North Africa in 1940-41-42, to the Japanese in China and in South-east Asia in 1941-42, nor to the Wallies in western Europe in 1943-45.
The Red army hold the very dubious privilege to be the only army that took more losses than its enemies despite winning large-scale battles.
During WW2 there was no correlation between "being in attack" and "suffering higher losses" on a strategic and operational scale. That's a fact and calling people "Wehraboos" won't change it.
suffering is Russia's superpower
Zukov's Biggest and Humiliaiting defeat in ww2.
He completly,under estimated the combat habitity, of the Whermacht in the Center, in that period. And Paid Dearly. He and hundreads of thounsands Rússian soldiers.
Of course that operation Mars, was overshadow by operation Uranus, in the south. But the sheer amount of russian casualities on operation Mars, put operation Uranus, like a walk in the Park.
Of course, operation Uranus, with is strategic objectives, in the end, and in History, Will be to many People, most important, than Operation Mars. But if you look what was achivied, and the final result, was an Tremendous Defeat for the Red Army..
PS : of course what happened in Stalinegrad, put this battle in a second plan, when it was so Violent and Horrendos, that the Rússian high command try to "hide", this horrible Defeat, from the public.
Am familiar with Rzhev battles through study of GrossDeuchland Division (pardon the spelling) was a real thorn in the side for ivan BUT the nazis died like flies trying to hold it..
I challenge the point that the Soviets didn't destroy the units on the salient. Given that they forced so many units into a state which the Germans determined where not even able to properly defend they at least partially achieved that objective. It was a pyrrhic victory at best with the large numbers of Soviet losses, however if they had not been so aggressive and bleed so much of the German forces in the meat grinder then actions around Stalingrad would have been very different.
Gud summarie! Ähmäzing tu hear abaut Rschew! ^^
Aber ehrlich gesagt, Metaler-Bart steht dir nicht so gut, wie der alte 5-Tage-Bart. Sah wesentlich cooler aus! :D
(Nur meine bescheidene Meinung...)
Heeresgrubbe Midde xD
da musste ich auch schmunzeln :D
Germany never really had a chance. Moscow falling after 1941 wouldn’t have made much of a difference
It is not forgotten, a new memorial was inaugurated by Putin and Lukashenko of Belarus last week!
i dont know, but isnt it well established that the sovjets attaked first in 1942? they go for Rzhev and for lost the battle of charkov. without charkov there wouldnt be fall blau possible
It would be better if you added visual aids to keep the viewers interest.....just my 2 cents
Thx. Watched again. Still good.
Completely useless to fill the screen with yourself instead of maps.
The audio quality of the video is rather low.
Crazy salient fight
Comments for the Algorithm God
You forgot to mention that the Russians had access to the German communications though ULTRA.
I'd say it's the most German way to say Stalin and Stalingrad, which in Russian would be spelled as Шталин / Шталинград instead of regular Сталин / Сталинград. XD
I don't think the logic of "if both the Germans and Soviets have more troops for Stalingrad, we should expect the same outcome" really holds up.
Doesn't both the defense and the side with higher quality troops scale better as the number of troops per area increases?
To make a dumb analogy, it's very obvious in a game like Counter-Strike. The same map can be heavily attacker-favoured in a 3vs3 and heavily defender favoured in a 5vs5, because lower numbers mean more openings and a shallower defense. But raise those numbers and every approach is guarded with significant firepower that even a larger number of attackers can't overcome well.
Obviously those factors look quite different in real life and on the scale of an entire theatre, but the basic principles seem to hold up to me.
In reading Russia At War, it seems to be very helpful if youtubers would chart a month-by-month inventory of trucks, tanks, and aircraft. Both the American Lend-Lease of finished product and the Soviet production of product reached full effectiveness only in the Summer of 1943. Any failure of Soviet fighting forces and leadership prior to winter 42-43 ought to be at the feet of Stalin and the Supreme Command ordering generals into impossible attacks. Of course, Stalin was willing to trade the lives of Red Army soldiers for the Nazis. As long as he knew the trade was 1:1, he'd throw 20 million in.
I think that if the Germans redeployed these divisions elsewhere, the Soviets would have launched their major offensive in the Center, pulling those troops back anyway. It would be the battles behind Rzhev - a pre-Bragation in Western Russia. The destruction or pushing back of AGC would expose the flanks of AGN and AGS, so of course reserves would be pulled up to this sector.
How successful would it be is impossible to tell
"Stuck out like a sword towards Moscow" typical English fighting the war in print instead of on ground. Word generals like Monty. Why not "it laid in Belarus like a cow plop"?
...AUSGEZEICHNET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
Good material.
Your accent is so german ;)
Good content but sound quality made me give up half way through. Sorry!
meaningless town but was North of the Volga...the only time the Germans crossed and held there..
We in the west often do not seek out the in depth history of WW II fought in the East. Russia and China are too often overlooked in their struggles against invaders.
Never forget.
I wish you'd leave the graphics up for constance reference
Very interesting information, but at a certain moment you get tired to see the same image on red background.
You know you never really answer the questions you propose in your videos.
Seems apropos that one of the Soviet offensives was named Mars. Very interesting history that has langished in the shadow of Stalingrad for decades.
it is not forgotten
A map would be nice. Question: There was a Russian documentary which included Zukov's "great grandson" as commentator. I watched it a few years ago and now it has disappeared from RUclips. What is the story behind this. Is it because the series was critical at times over decisions made by Stalin and Stavka during 1941-42?
I don't know, I don't watch documentaries. Yet, most likely it is a copyright issue.
Tribal revenge tactics / / when tribes go to war
Very good explanation.
What is a salient?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salient_(military)
No one wins a war.
Every name is mispronounced.
mission accomplished
Isn't a formation also a unit?
Thanks for video
Thank - you .
Mensch, wieso ist der Schnitt heute so grob ? :D
No conclusive report on the German losses?
it is a mess
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized I know that Glantz or some other historian gave around total 40 000 casualties for Operation Mars, it seems that number is very similar or a bit higher for two previous offensives.