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There may be an additional consideration as to why the "Rzhev Meatgrinder" is not discussed much in German (or Western) military historiography, and it may be ideological as well. You observed that the struggles for Rzhev do not fit the popular narrative about the war on the Russian front, such as the notion that Hitler refused to permit retreats of any kind. This portrayal of Hitler is an important consideration, because it may contribute to a popular belief that 'Hitler the madman' ordered the German Army to an historically inescapable defeat, once the Red Army counterattacked in Operation Uranus. However, if one sees that Hitler could look to the German defensive victories at Rzhev, when considering whether or not to hold the positions at Stalingrad and the Volga, then his decision to stay and fight is no longer the act of a madman, but rather a decision based on the very recent German experience fighting the Red Army, as well as an appraisal of that Army's evident inability to successfully conduct offensive operations. Including Rzhev in the larger picture will not change the historical outcome of the Battle of Stalingrad, nor of the Second World War, but it might mean that the common, Western portrayal of Hitler as an unthinking, senseless tactician will lose ground - and that the outcome of the war was not as foreordained as is sometimes commonly believed.
i think it is less about that, and more about how from the german view, the battles were not 'battles' but more static defenses, so we dont hear about it for the same reasons that we dont hear about the individual attacks on the mannerheim line or the attacks on the french lines in ww1. It was simply viewed as a general succesful defensive action when they won, which is not too interesting and it simultanerously showed a german defeat in the sense that they were unable to attack from it and capture the railways or move on towards moscow.
I like that you mentioned the war's outcome not being simply a foregone conclusion. I feel this is an overused assessment the general public has of the war, that the Axis were simply doomed from the very start and Russia was 100% guaranteed to bulldoze their way to Berlin and win the war. As battles like Rzhev show, even if the Wehrmacht wasn't able to achieve decisive victories, the Russians were certainly in no position to be winning the war at this stage.
@@Topfblende What people should understand is that while german army was in the constant decline as more and more experiences troops were killed, soviet army was constantly improoving. Red Army of 1943 and 1941 is like heaven and earth. The tactics are different, the weapons are different, even the uniform is different.
@@Itoyokofan Of course the Red Army was improving. But this was a gradual process and came at the cost of extremely heavy casualties. Apart from the operations around Stalingrad, the Red Army didn't consistently conduct large scale mobile operations successfully until the autumn of 1943. From that point it still took nearly 2 more years of grinding attritional warfare to get to the gates of Berlin. Its tempting to ask how successful this "improved" Red army would have been had it not been for German resources being diverted to fight the western allies, along with the significant destruction inflicted by them. We can also wonder how the Red Army would have been able to conduct these massive offensives late in the war without the significant resources provided through lend lease.
I've heard of Rzhev meat grinder. My grand-granddad was grinded there. In his last letter home he wrote: "As I'm writing those lines, the earth is trembling from the constant barrage". His body - like countless others - was never found, and my grandmother's family was never recognized as a family of a war casualty.
My great grandfather was also a participant there. He went missing on April 1943. Sadly no information is available of him and he never wrote letters back. He was in the Kalinin Front
Much respect to both of your Grandfathers. My Grandfather served in the US 90th infantry division going into France on D day plus 3 and ending up in Czechoslovakia by the end of the war with Pattons 3rd Army which as I’m sure you know was in the Soviet zone of occupation . He had some interactions with Soviet soldiers over there and he had the utmost respect for them and that they seemed very interested in American gear so they traded some stuff. But the scale of brutality and just the vastness of Russia and intensity of the fighting you guys were really fighting for your very existence. My Grandfather did cone up against sone SS units and said they were very good and tough but would shoot medics and mortar field hospitals the kind of stuff you’d expect from them and to think that in 1944 they were still A dangerous enemy imagine being a Russian soldier in 41 or 42 i salute both of your Grandfathers for their valiant defense of their homeland respect from the USA
I was killed near Rzhev In a nameless bog, In fifth company, On the Left flank, In a cruel air raid I didn’t hear explosions And did not see the flash Down to an abyss from a cliff No start, no end And in this whole world To the end of its days - Neither patches, nor badges From my tunic you’ll find I am where the blind roots Seek for food in the dark I am where the rye waves On a hill in the dust I am where the cockerel cries In the dew of the dawn I am where your cars Tear the air on highways Where - small stalk to small stalk - River’s weaving its grass Where for the remembrance Even my mother won’t come In a bitter year’s summer I was killed. And for me Neither news nor bulletins Will come after this day Would you, the living, count How long before that For the first time in front news They named Stalingrad The front burned without stopping Like a scab on the flesh I was killed and I don’t know Is Rzhev ours at last? Have ours held their ground There, on the Middle Don? This was the month of horror Everything was at stake Could it be that by autumn He already took Don? And he broke through to Volga Riding onto its bank? No, it’s not true! That mission He could never complete. No way I say, no! Even for the dead It would be too terrible to hear Even the dead and voiceless Have one last single joy We have fallen for the Motherland But it’s finally saved. Our eyes have faded Out is the flame of our hearts And up there, at roll calls They are not calling us. We’re like bumps or stones Even darker and dumber. Our memory eternal - Who is jealous to it? Our ashes are rightfully Owned by black earth Our eternal glory Is of little delight. We shall not wear our Battle awards This is all for you, the living, We have just one last joy That we didn’t fight in vain For our Motherland Let our voice be inaudible You’ve got to know it now. And you had to, my brothers, Stand fast like a wall For the curse of the dead Is a terrible wrath We are forever given This bitter right And it is forever ours This bitter right In the summer of forty-two I was buried without a grave Everything what came later Was taken by the death All, what has been for many So clear and common But then may it all be In accord with our belief Brothers, maybe you didn’t Lose the Don battlefield only And were dying in battles Fighting behind Moscow And in steppes behind Volga Dug your trenches in haste And in battles you marched To the limits of Europe For us it would suffice To know for sure There was that last inch On the road of war - That very last inch: If it is abandoned, There’s nowhere to put The foot that had stepped behind And you drove the enemy Back to the West May it be so, my brethren And Smolensk’s now ours And you’re crushing the enemy On the other front, And maybe it’s the border Your are nearing now? May it be… Let the holy oath’s Words be fulfilled : For Berlin, if you remember Was named near Moscow Brothers, who now trample The stronghold of enemy land If the dead and the fallen Could only cry! If only victory salvoes could Resurrect us for an instant, Us, deaf and numb, Us, who rest in eternity O, my faithful comrades, Only then at this war Your limitless happiness You would realise! In this happiness there is Our inalienable part, Our, severed by the death, Faith and hatred and passion. All is ours! We did not cheat, In this cruel fight, We have given all ours And left nothing to ourselves Everything is bequeathed to you For all time, not for a term And this mental voice of ours Is no reproach to the living. For we had no distinction In this war at all: Those living and those fallen - We were all equal. And no one of the living Is indebted to us Those, who took up the colours From us on the run Only to fall one step later For the holy cause, For the Soviet power, Like all of us. I was killed at Rzhev, And he - somewhere near Moscow… Where are you, warriors, where, Is there anyone alive?! In the million-large cities In the villages, at family homes? At the military garrisons, On a foreign land? Ah, does it really matter If it’s foreign or ours If it’s snow-covered or blossoming… I bequeath you to live - What more can I do? I bequeath you to be happy In your life over there And to serve your Motherland With honour for long. When in sorrow - be proud, Do not bend down your head When rejoicing - don’t boast In the victory hour. And to safeguard, brothers, this victory, The happiness of yours, - In the memory of your warrior-brother Who has fallen for it. - Alexander Tvardovsky
Not to compare with Tvardovsky, but here's a piece of a song written in 2011 about Leningrad siege and Mga forrests. Then everything will roar and fly somewhere at dawn, And then swearing push forward on the machine gun, And trees are upside-down, roots grow to the sky At this ever glorious battle place of crime It is a miraculous view. Forests from the fable. Stumble there on a bump - helmet with no lable. Take a deeper dig for a spoon and tin, And above just cloudberry ever grows thin.
Pretty much propaganda, for the Germans, lines on the map not moving was nothing to celebrate, whilst for the Soviets the idea of never ending fascist assaults and finally stopping them in Stalingrad is far better than "we've launched 100s of offensives and they all failed miserably"
You brilliantly summarised it. Germany lost more men in this battle (140-160,000 KIA) than the 1916 battle of Verdun (120-140,000 KIA) and as you correctly said, for no gains. At least Verdun had like a see-saw movement of German gains followed by the French retaking their gains. In Rzhev there was nothing to celebrate. "We killed houndreds of thousands of Soviets...and we ourselves lost over 100,000 KIA" is not propaganda worthy material. Thank you for the comment.
@@twoheadeddatascientist3289 1. There was nothing to celebrate at Verdun either really. It was a huge French morale victory. Germany gained nothing but a few Napoleonic era "Fortresses", and unlike at Rzhev, the Germans only inflicted slightly more casualties on there opponent. 2. I'd argue there was some propaganda benefit to Rzhev, after all, it's the main source of the Soviet "human wave" stereotype of unimaginative Sledgehammer blows began.
Military History not Visualized episode 6 covers the Rzhev in good detail. I have a degree in history and starting relearning the Eastern Front from this series. Also a United States Marine from 1986-96.
I'm glad you mention the books not being harmed in the production. Wouldn't want People for the Ethical Treatment of Books (PETB) organizing a boycott of this channel!
One other reason why the German literature did not mention the battle, in my opinion, is the most important one. The German scholarship does not have access to a lot of independent sources on the battles at the Eastern Front, because the most of the German archives related to the Eastern Front were seized by the Soviets and the Soviet-affiliated DDR after the war. So, Russian Defense Ministry Archive in Podolsk, up to this day, still keeps both the Soviet AND the German documents about the Eastern Front, and most of them are still classified. That's why most of the German books You are reading about the Eastern Front are mostly based on the Soviet narrative about the war, slightly enriched here and there by the soldiers' memoirs and what little the German scholars could obtain in the Russian archive.
Yet a huge amount of archival material became available in the 1990s and historians from many countries swarmed into Russia to gather it up, interview veterans etc. Our knowledge of the Eastern Front expanded dramatically. Perhaps it is Rzhev in particular that is kept classified.
valar There was no large scale declassification in Russia. Just ask Russian historians of WWII, who try to research stuff. WWII secrets are very carefully guarded
jurisprudens what is the reason for the continued classification? My guess is it’s to hide something that would embarrass the Soviet Union and by extension the modern Russian federation. Such as massive casualties in senseless counterattacks or extreme incompetence on the part of soviet commanders. Communists are always extremely concerned about their world appearance.
No sane person would believe USSR info. They covered their losses and mistakes, partly because for some generals it meant death. And even though, some good independent historians found some facts by comparing docs that were not seized. And they sort of built a more realistic history. I liked how one of them when asked why red army suffered such losses having so many tanks and plains said: Tanks dont fight battles, people do. Those people hated stalin and ussr. All first and second year they happily gave up or simply ran home or to the german side. germans themselves were amazed how easily they gave up. But after all, they werent fighting an army, they were fighting slave army that had nothing to defend. All thanks to the crazy blood thirsty psychopath in Kremlin.
@Felipe Scheuermann the german documents weren't captured. To my knowledge, they never really wrote anything about the conflict besides some regional reports that were lost to time. There are very few German accounts floating around of the battle, and to my knowledge Nazi high command saw the whole ordeal as another set of numbers on a spreadsheet rather than a significant event'
My great-grandfather was seriously wounded during the first day, I think it was August 4th 1942, of the summer Rzhev offensive. And if I am not mistaken it was the second major offensive on Rzhev. He was likely hit by a counter barrage. Was part of a Guards mortar crew. Really enjoy your videos man, it's a shame our ancestors had to die for retarded ideologies, could have sat in a bar and drank beer together.
My Dad went through the ETO and Korea. He actually had a chance to drink beer after WWII with former German soldiers. Interact with Chinese Communist POW's. Concluded people were not the problem.
If you are interested in how the Rzhev salient was formed, why Germans wanted to hold on it and in what point they were forced to abandon it, I highly recommend videos by Eastory about the eastern front if you havent seen it already, incredibly detailed map videos that put everything into context. I think maybe the reason why Rzhev might be ignored in german view is, that in retrospective, holding the salient was one of the biggest german mistakes, because it tied up most of the german forces that were desperatly needed in the south, which is I think what caused the crushing defeat of the overstretched Army group South. They should have abandoned it because after Stalingrad they were forced to do so anyway to fill the collapsing lines in the south.
I kinda like to use this piece of data to demonstrate why Mars failed while Uranus succeded: 39th Panzer Corps of the Army Group Center alone used more ammunition than entire 6th Army at Stalingrad. During November 1942 39th PzK consumed between 500 to 800 tonnes of artillery shells per day on average while maintaining constant reserve of 3000 tonnes of ammunition. In comparison entire 6th Army (six corps in total against one) consumed about 200-400 tonnes of ammunition per day in November 1942.
It seems like it was just a huge sinkhole to throw men into as the insane amounts of causalities boggles the mind. I doubt it looks good in reflection for either side, regardless of who ever holds the salients and who that fails it. Also the fact it wasn't any thing "decisive" could also explain why no one wants to talk about it.
> I doubt it looks good in reflection for either side Yes, but German military historians generally don't care if something looks bad or not for "their side", quite on the contrary usually. Especially, considering Case Blue & Stalingrad, where they clearly state the various shortcomings of the German military as well and not solely blame Hitler nor Paulus.
As an “older” history major, I think a great reason this battle was largely ignored was for political reasons during the Cold War; 1. Didn’t the Soviets give the plans to the Germans via a Double Agent, in Zhukov’s name, without his knowledge? Sacrificing thousands of soldiers would not have been good for the Soviet people to know post-war. 2. It doesn’t fit the Cold War narrative that seemed to be that it was all Hitler’s meddling that lost battles. Simplified answers, yes, but the Cold War period was rife with propaganda from both sides. History was used literally as a weapon....
simplicius Yes, I absolutely agree with what you say! I was commenting as to why so little of this battle was discussed. After the War, it was fairly worthless to both East & West as a propaganda tool. As a student during the late 1970’s, looking back it was amazing how much history was “distorted” for Cold War propaganda. I would really like to see someone do a dissertation of the study of World War 2 as seen through the 1970’s-80’s😊
Here's another way to look at it from the German side: You can argue that Case Blau failed because the Germans had so many troops committed to other fronts. If they weren't defending such a long and active front they might have been able to force their way through in the south. While the Soviet offensives in the center "failed" they may have succeeded in robbing the German armies in the south of the reinforcements they would have needed to have succeeded. This would have made Rzhev a tactical victory and strategic defeat for the Germans and a tactical defeat but strategic victory for the Soviets. But the consequences were realized in the south.
That is similar to the Vietnamese strategy at Khe Sanh, although the American proclaimed it a victory, it was the purpose of Giap to tie down as many U.S. troops as possible there while the Tet Offensive was being carried out in the rest of South Vietnam.
I have been an amateur student of war for most of my life, but only recently heard od Rzhev due to a few new wargames on the subject, now a book, and some YT vids. Thank you for educating me!
David Glantz book: Zhukov's Greatest Defeat: The Red Army's Epic Disaster in Operation Mars, 1942 (Modern War Studies) Paperback - April 28, 1999 covered the Rzev salient fighting from start to finish, IIRC. I believe he used both Soviet and German archives.
My father past that period of WW2. Kalininski front. HE was a miner.. Past all 4 years of war.. Never been even wounded. Only in siege of K enigsberg He could be killed. Germans cntr attack . A huge German soldier try to kill him with dagger . He grab blade by fingers and strike guy with small miners shovel.. 3 Soldiers Glory..Order of Great Patriotic War..medal for Kenigsberg. 1911-2003. I AM PROUD OF YOU DAD.. YOU ARE MY HERO.. GLORY TO ALL SOVIET PEOPLE PERISHED IN WAR..
@@korsan4954 Ok, thanks. I know that those archives that did survive mostly got into the Soviet occupation zone and the DDR. Most of the documents on the Eastern Front was removed to the USSR and is now still kept in the Russian Defense Ministry Archive in Podolsk. Still mostly classified. ;)
I have no problem saying Rzhev, maybe it’s because I know a very small amount of Ukrainian which is very close to Russian or maybe it’s because I listen to a lot of Slavic music. Though I doubt even my friends who know very little of any Slavic language would have any issues saying it.
Another great video. I've bought "Stalin's Greatest Defeat" but not read it yet. (I have to get thru the Stalingrad series first.) I think you are in to something with the fact that Rzhev doesn't fit into "the narrative." "The generals were always right and Hitler was always wrong." David House gave a lecture where he went into this. I've also seen a lecture where Gerhard Weinberg addressed Rshev. He said that the German withdrawal had negative consequences that were both tactical and strategic. Tactically, it shortened the lines for the Russians as well as the Germans. This allowed them to concentrate at Kursk. Strategically, by removing the threat to Moscow, the Germans allowed the Russians to think offensively as opposed to counter-offensively. You can think about winning when don't have to think about not losing.
On one of TIK's video's he say's that the Germans made a terrible mistake by not sending proper reinforcements to Stalingrad and instead sending them to Army Group Center when it was clear they needed them at Stalingrad instead. He even went as far as to say they probably would have won at Stalingrad had they sent the correct number of reinforcements. However... Perhaps TIK had forgotten about the Rzhev Meat Grinder and maybe this is why they sent so many reinforcements to AGC? I don't know but TIK has always taught me to ask myself "Is this really so?"
Yeah, I remember that video. After watching this, I think I need to rewatch that again to get a refresher of what he said exactly, and how it relates to the information in this video.
I also remembered that vid. I m wondering if they did what TIK said than operation Mars would have been a success and Uranus would have ended in a failure.
Uranus had better commanders: Vasilevsky (a less well-known but altogether a better staff planner than Zhukov), Vatutin (rising star and mechanised warfare talent, whose life was unfortunately cut short), and Rokossovsky (the gentleman commander) and it went against the weaker of the Axis forces: Hungarian, Italian, and Romanian. Mars still had good commanders: Zhukov, despite his ruthless quality. Konev (ultimately one of two front commanders who assaulted Berlin) and Purkhayev weren't bad commanders. However, the offensive wasn't well prepared. Artillery was short on shells, and the men were ill-trained. They ran up against the strongest of opponents. They were still learning the hard way. Fast forward to 1944 and you can see the commanders matured. The men were trained and prepared according to the terrain. They properly massed munitions and supplies.
TIK is an insightful dude and has interesting things to say. I think he tends to over-emphasize his analysis of events more than emphasizing the events themselves. He also tends to forget that we see A lead to B which leads to C when things are not nearly so clear on the ground at the time. He also tends to forget that if you change B in that equation, it has knock on effects that change everything and may lead to a completely different outcome altogether. It's a fine line analyzing history. Particularly history that's already been analyzed to death. It's also necessary for content creators to create interesting hooks into their content. I think he sometimes crosses the line but he does provide an interesting POV on all the topics he covers. You just have to be careful with conclusions and such. In general, there are very few conclusions we can take. Yet we would like for many, many more to be there. I think history is better used as a guide for the future more so than a true representation of the past. It's weird.
@@AAA9734 TIK said that even though Army Group South, specifically the forces in Stalingrad, suffered the heaviest losses but Center got more reinforcements. He used this as a way to blame Franz Halder for the German defeat because he's so obsessed with taking Moscow. TIK did however talk about Operation Mars in his Fall Blau video, which made me reconsider why they would send replacements to the center. As MHV said, the Soviets had way more units around Moscow and they were both taking heavy losses. Even if it was less than at Stalingrad, if there were so many more Soviet troops that's a logical reason for sending more men to that spot.
I have studied world war two for years and have many books about the main battles and somehow this was never mentioned in any of them. A huge battle lasting over a fucking year! More troops were sent here than Stalingrad by the soviets.
Picked up "Zhukov's Greatest Defeat" by Glantz a few years back and always bring up Operations Mars / Jupiter when people like to oversimplify the Eastern front. Very well researched and argued book if you don't already have it in your collection!
The omission of the Rzhev campaign is like when a large novel is written and when it is made into a movie a couple of main characters are left out because of time limits. Like when Peter Jackson left Tom Bombadill out of his Lord of the Rings trilogy.
Man. That’s a whole new channel or at least a playlist “”The Meat Grinders”” featuring the Battles of Lorraine, Mulhouse, Passchendaele, Verdun to Crete, Brest fortress, Tula, Perekop, Sevastopol, Omaha....etc. You’ll have grandkids before the final editing.
I've heard about it in a Russian documentary that was translated by the BBC I think, it's called Soviet Storm WW2 in the east and there is an episode about it
Cheers for mentioning it. This one, ruclips.net/video/vnhOTwSL5pI/видео.html. All the episodes are at this playlist, ruclips.net/p/PLwGzY25TNHPC_SsXFcIH-ba0nWuNbHOM6
So, Rzhev is the six chapters from the book the editor cut because "it doesn't move the story forward." Gotta love another example of the fact that "history" is often written to be interesting, and not just to fully explain what happened.
Thanks for covering stuff other than the "big few" the documentary channels do over and over. Even before the click=money era, whatever made for the best story is what got attention. I'm sure this was plenty important to the people taking part - and to any serious student of the war as well.
I find the notion that Hitler obsessed about Stalingrad, and was willing to squander whole armies in an attempt to bring it to it's knees, because of the 'symbolism' of the name, utterly ridiculous. Hitler, unlike many of his generals, understood the strategic significance of the region. He understood that controlling and ultimately redirecting the flow of oil was crucial to the outcome of the War. If his generals had also grasped that reality instead of simply seeking to repeat the mistakes made by Napoleon, the outcome of the Eastern Campaign may have been quite different.
very educational, i forget where i first heard of the meat grinder, but when i just tried to re-look it up the other day, i couldnt find anything, but then i go to youtube and find your video and you help to explain why its been so forgotten.... i can def agree with your view, between stalingrad to khursk Rzhev was always there.... and also a very intersting point you made, that hitler actually pulled back.... never knew that. Thanks!
Yaay, operation Mars and Jupiter It is probable that the offensives around Rzhev were considered the main assault while Stalingrad (Operation Uranus and Saturn) would have been a big diversion. Alas the results were way better in Stalingrad and thus they switched the entire narrative. Note that Rzhev would have a significant impact on the outcome of Stalingrad. When operation Mars began nearly 70% of Manstein's panzer meant to save Paulus during Unternehmen Wintergewitter were allocated to Model instead as Rzhev was more important in the eyes of Hitler (it is way closer to Moscow)
Ignace Jespers, I am not a specialist on this, but esp in the eyes of Hitler the South was always more important than Center. The decision for Moscow in 41 was a willing misinterpretion of Hitler´s orders by Halder. Pls correct me if I misinterpreted your comment.
I dont think so, if I remember correctly there were more resources asigned at operation Uranus than at Rzhev, also if operation mars have succeded it would have caused a lot of casualities and maybe more territory occupied, but not much else, however, Uranus and eventually Saturn collapsed the entire case blue operation and caused the biggest defeat to germany up to that point
In my opinion there are two different reasons why the Rzhev salient battles were forgotten. On the Soviet side because the results of the sustained offensive were catastrophic and, as mentioned, they use to ignore in their history books such operations. And in the German side because they didn't represent a substantial change of the general frontline. But what is sure is that the German High Command was well aware of the importance of the defensive battles of Rhzev because Walter Model was promoted to Field marshal as a result of his successfull stoping of the Soviet ofensive.
Feder Von Bock and Gunther iirc, the two main field marshalls who ran that battle on the German side at least died before the war was over, so they never released personal memoirs on it.
Considering Germany had generals who were preeminent at maneuver warfare, I'm surprised the Germans didn't simply decide to create a trap for the Russians by allowing them to advance to a given point in the Rzhev pocket and then perform one of their patented pincer movements to cut off the advancing armies. Kind of like they did at the 2nd Battle of Kharkov. I think Manstein proposed that exact strategy to Hitler prior to the Kursk battle (Manstein's "Backhand" strategy), but Hitler wanted an offensive there (the "Forehand" strategy).
I always found interesting the fact that a particular place in the eastern front was called "the meat grinder", it's almost like calling a spot in the antartica "the cold spot",and was not mentioned that much, I guess it's because is in the middle of two major soviet victories, moscow and stalingrad. I can't even imagine what it would be like for those people being "grinded" there
The Northern front sector (from Murmansk to the Rzhew-Vyaz'ma salient) was a stalemate situation for about two years - which ressembled to WW1. And nobody liked these remembrances. This is due to the fact that Northern Russia is dominated by forrest. Although, the toppling blow happened in the central front sector in summer 1944, the outcome of the German-Soviet war was decided in the steppes of the South in the two years before.
I have many ww2 books and have never read about it. However (and it may surprise you) I know it from Russian TV documentary. There is whole episode about it.
I literally read about this the other day. The casualty numbers were simply staggering. The eastern front made our fight in the west look like a childrens tea party. People are slowly starting to realise how terribly the Russians suffered to break the back of the German war machine.
G'day, I can recall reading of the "Rzhev Pocket" in about 1978, in Len Deighton's novel "Bomber". One character was an SS Cavalry Colonel, retired wounded with frostbite & shrapnel & amputations, and such, to a sinecure running a complex of Stables to provide Horses for State Ceremonial Occasions.... Another character mistakes the gangrenous Colonel for being a WW-1 Veteran, and is corrected with a description of an SS Cavalry Patrol in the Rzehv Pocket - employed due to the Snow depth (?) getting caught and artilleried in the clearing between patches of Forest... The mistaken observer is shocked that the "old man" is not yet 25, and muses that, "...These days a little Skirmish would barely rate a mention in the daily Situation Report...." So, there you go...; the one mention of Rzhev which I encountered as a kid in Oz indicated that it was a Meat-Grinder which deepy impressed everybody who was there at the time, but immediately afterwards became dwarfed by the scale of much bigger & bloodier Slaughterhouse Battles... Maybe the German Psyche has edited Rzhev from it's Narrative because it was all pointless self-sacrificial bravery being wasted in a hopeless attempt to militarily defeat and occupy the USSR for a suicidal Ideology...? Some silly ideas are best forgotten, perhaps... Such is Life, Have a good one. ;-p Ciao !
G'day, Too true..., as I recall it, "Bomber" was the first published Book to have been entirely written using a Word-Processor rather than a Typewriter...; so it probably deserves a Resurrection merely as an Historical Cultural Artifact, as well as being a very vibrant explanation of RAF Bomber Command's nocturnal Incendiary Area-Bombing Campaign against Germany, and the Nachtjagdwaffe's Defences, in 1943-44. Have a good one, ;-p Ciao !
It has actually been argued that the Rhzev salient was actually part of a grand plan to encircle Army Group Center via Vyazma. You can look at the order of battle and how they implemented a precursor to deep battle by deploying tank armies in the area. People love forgetting that the salient was still right next to Moscow. Also the Rhzev salient extended the front too much so it would have been good to shorten the front. Very interesting perspective btw on the perspective that the Germans were on the offensive in 1942 + the view that Hitler never listened to his generals.
First of all hitler did listen to his generals until right after Stalingrad and some of the generals made a major amount of the stupid mistakes that lead to the loss of the war u need to watch “TIKHISTORY” he does the most detailed and fact checked videos of ww2 and the truths of hitler everyone here should watch “TIKHISTORY” but this guy that made this video is pretty darn good too I must add. Much appreciation to all the dedicated historians who keep us updated and educated on world conflicts that should be remembered! Btw Fk Communism !
@@RapidAssaultEuro I always suspected he was a Russian spy. He's too German to actually be German. He's like the Russian spies who make up the entirety of the population who go to baseball games. We all know no one actually watches baseball.
As a social scientist, it is interesting that this enormous battle, since it cannot be given a clear "narrative structure", is sort-of awkwardly forgotten. It shows the power of narratives when humans re-tell the history for themselves. While at it, I believe the reason we still make more videos about WW2 than about the wars since 1945, is that WW2 has an extraordinary clear narrative structure - actually wholly similar to a standard Hollywood move: A clear structure that no recent war can match (it helps that WW2 was so big, but I think this is of secondary importance). Here is the narrative structure of WW2, notice how Hollywoodish it is: 1) bad guy meets good guy; 2) bad guy almost wins; 3) good guy wins.
Not just that but it’s interesting to see how everyone seems to think they know everything about everything with this conflict, but you’ll never see such claims from so many about the Great War, or the Korean War before or after, which I find interesting being mankind’s largest conflict that doesn’t even have a set start date
I have heard about it and read a lot about it. I think that the German successes in holding it against repeated large scale soviet offensives for a year and a half eventually lulled German commanders into the false sense of superiority and complacency which got Army Group Centre destroyed in less than two months during the early summer of 1944 by Operation Bagration.
First of all thank you for your series of videos about WWII. I enjoy them very much, they are very informative and easy to follow. Now to the topic of your video. I understand and agree on your view from the Soviet perspective. But from the German perspective: 1. Could it simply be because of the nature of the two operations that you mentioned? The front during Case Blue was way more mobile and eventful all the way to the conclusion of Op. Wintergewitter.. Many major battles were fought along vast amounts of territories and achieved very notable results. While the series of battles of Rzhev, mostly kept similar fronts until the German withdrawal? They did not have the same mobility, but more the character of attritional battles. It was in a way "nothing more" than about holding the line for the Germans. 2. Could it also be concluded that since Germany for the greater part of the war up until then, had mostly been advancing? All major battles up until Stalingrad had been victorious, while Rzhev even though holding out, inflicting enormous casualties and stopping a major Soviet offensive, did not produce neither a victory nor a defeat over the Red Army? Thusly neither any need to highlight it as a triumph nor seek excuses for a defeat. In a way the Germans were forced to abandon the idea of capturing Moscow after the battles was concluded with their evacuation from the salient and that might be considered a defeat and turning point of the war in it self although executed with less frontline movement drama even though the battles still were bloody as hell. Read about the total amount of casualties, around 3 000 000 ( among 1-1,5 million dead Soviets) in total.. Phew..
It’s because history are written and only widely accepted if it is told by American and British. Many Chinese-Japanese battles are not told and recognized by the English Speaking World either, like Sino-German and Sini Soviet cooperations in WW2. This is one of the reason Chinese resent English Speaking Ignorant world. I even sense that German sometimes have the same frustration, like German side of WW2 aren’t important.
People tell their own stories. If you want the Battles in China that is hardly the job of Americans or British. The Communist government of China has also not told the stories of the Nationalist Chinese Army against Japan. This is beginning to change but will have a PLO slant.
News flash: Everyone states biased jargon. Even Chinese do this. A lot of people don't feel comfortable trusting what Chinese say regarding certain subjects. It's a long story and complex to explain. In the western part of the world a lot people have formed extreme skepticism to trust anything that has communism related to it because of understandable reasons thanks to what U.S.S.R. and other governments like it were found doing. When someone like Stalin erases an entire guy out of a film and pictures... it does not help and ensuring they can trust another one with communism in it. They worry they might encounter another case of historical revisionism all thanks to some guy in office there decided to keep things hush hush, and would not find out about it only years after. They will instinctively question and scrutinize anything the Chinese says because of these past experiences. Besides, I dislike learning about ww2. People globally have become so morally corrupt over the years they just use ww2 to do nationalistic jingoistic dick measure each other now. I have seen people say, "It didn't matter if they were there or not. We could have won without them on our own," from everyone. I mean EVERYONE. This is a sign you can't trust anything from anyone talking about ww2 now. It's too filled with the jingoism and local nationalism now. You are better off learning own your own by investigation.
sharkfinbite I don’t disagree with you. However, to say the more Chinese accounts of WW2 are exaggerated, so no Chinese account should be accepted? Also what about Chinese Nationalists accounts? In this video, Germans also feel this biased as well. Because American/ British are in general more creditable, does that mean they don’t spin crap? Your claim can almost be viewed as racially or maybe Anglo Centric biased.
I agree that it doesn't fit in the "traditional" narrative, but i definitely think there is more to it than that. The southern campaign of mid '42 to early '43 has a decisiveness to it lacking in the center. The early portion sees the classic panzer formations taking 15 or 20km a day, overwhelming the front, countered by a massive Soviet counter attack that completely encircles an entire army and annihilates it. In the Rzhev area, and advance of a few hundred yards was considered a successful day. The fighting was more akin to WW1, with static trench warfare and tit for tat offensives and counter-offensives. The Soviets committed more manpower to the area true, but it was a more drawn out affair, with more manpower stationed there at any given point. Additionally, Rzhev could arguably be seen as a draw, the Germans were eventually forced to pull back but it was on their terms. Given the manpower shortage, particularly after Stalingrad, they could not have held indefinitely and there situation was tenuous at best by early '43. The Soviets suffered more casualties and failed to destroy the units present, but in the theater were unquestionably a greater threat to the Germans offensively than the Germans were to them. There's a doc about it on youtube, Soviet Storm(English dub), part of an 18 or so doc series produced in Russia in 2011. I'm sure Military History not Visualized could be a better judge of its veracity than me but I found it fairly interesting.
2521 A.D., still: "Why have we never heard of Xxy-battle, where 10.000.000 Soviet/German-soldiers fought, and half of them died... (???)" Answer: Cause we are westerners, and grew up with Hollywood-movies about the war, always thinking that THIS was the war, while the war was totally somewhere else... I have heard of Rzhev Meat Grinder, many times, althought material is always sparse...
Very nice summary. I think another factor which played probably also a role is that the Soviet generals were in some competition with each other and for history you prefer as the winner to focus more on your successes then your defeats.
I remember this from an old documentary called Soviet Storm. It's been a minute but I remember it being a pretty good show. Aw snap! The entire series is on youtube. Gonna be busy for the next 12 hours.....
It would be interesting to do a video comparing Zhukov to Konev. Initially I was pro-Zhukov but on studying the two men and their styles more, I think Konev was the better commander. He was far better at conserving his forces and inflicting casualties on the enemy whereas Zhukov was all too often indifferent. The battle of the Korsun pocket shows this with respect to Konev.
Im rather sure 90% or more of people who know Zhukov and Konev are pro-Zhukov just because of Zhukov’s prestige and stuff, I don’t blame you for thinking the same
The I heard about it from the Memoir '44 scenario of Rzhev. ...best game in the world for obscure WWII battles of any size, from single squads to massive armygroups - it got all of them. /plug
I can understand why the Soviets wanted to sweep these battles under the carpet but I also understand the strategic importance of these operations to the Soviet war effort. The measure of the success or failure of a military campaign is whether or not you meet your objectives. The German strategic objective was to destroy the Soviet Union as a nation, occupy European Russia to the Volga and depopulate the country by 30 million through starvation / migration while enslaving those remaining they deemed ethnically inferior. The Germans never even met their Barbarossa objectives of seizing Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov let alone the defeat of the Red Army, the collapse of the USSR and Europe east to the Volga under her control. The Soviets DID meet their objective of driving the Germans out of Russia so no matter how you look at it the Rzhev offensives were a strategic success even though they were operational failures. Americans should study this war because they seem to delight in operational success but can never seem to turn operational success into a strategic victory and the vast majority of them don't seem to understand the difference.
I never even really encountered The Meatgrinder until I read Gorbachevsky’s memoir “Through the Maelstrom”. I learned one more place in time I’d never want to visit. His memoir was good but paled in comparison to The Forgotten Soldier by Sajer which I read just after. Enjoyed your ideas and agree with them.
I've come across interpretations of the eastern front that say that the Rzhev salient and the destruction of Army Group Centre was the principal point and focus of Soviet strategy in the middle of the war and it was Stalingrad that was the sideshow, intended to relieve pressure in that area.
So due to a rather pedestrian nature and the fact that it doesn't conform or add to the popular narratives, it is ignored (or rather just not used as an example) by our current crop of historians.
The fact that the event was prolonged and drawn out IMO does not justify neglect if not solely for the fact the meat grinder took about 2,3 mil Soviet lives which is more than casualties around Stalingrad on two sides combined
I could not find a single micro wargame published for the battle of Rzhev. I would recommend contacting your favourite wargame publisher about submitting a scenario for Rzhev. You might even be able to talk them into a cross-promotional deal so you can have this channel promoted on the packaging. I know a few wargamers that have played through every battle, in order, of the US Civil War so I would think there must be at least a few that have done the same for the Eastern Front during WWII. Not having an "officially" published scenario for the centre of the front must be disappointing.
Hi, great video. Would you ease consider making a video about the battle of the Hurtgen forrest? Similar to the Rhzev meat grinder, it's barely mentioned as it was mostly an embarrassment to the U.S. I read about it and the underreporting that bordered on a cover up in The Battle of Hurtgen Forrest by Charlse Whiting. An excellent book.
Well, it' take a lot to learn about even operation like Bagration, who's mainly overshadowed by the operation Overlord... So a brutal stalemate like Rzhev, caught between Stalingrad and Kharkov, it's no wonder...
can you talk about the battle of "Demyansk pocket"? This battle happened right after stalingrad, early 1943, and was notable for the first use of the Sturmgwehr in battle - several thousand of these early MP43/44 rifles plus ammunition were suposedly air-dropped (or otherwise issued )to the Wehrmacht units trapped in the pocket, and they effectively used the new gun to help fight their way out of it. Anything from your German sources about that I would find very interesting -
I have heard of it , but not in detail , good post ! You should do something on Kalkin Gol , in Mongolia , that battle kept Japan from getting involved in Russia , and resulted in no combat with Japan until 1945 .
An old computer wargame series called V for Victory covered this battle in 1992. Atomic Games produced V for Victory: Velikiye Luki. Frank Chadwick also did a tabletop game called White Death: Velikiye Luki, The Stalingrad of the North, that I have not played but looks excellent.
Played the V for Victory game (actually still have the disks)--as the German, you keep running around trying to blunt Soviet attacks--there's no rest, no time to regroup.
I've read extensively about Operation Mars about 2 years ago. There are many monthly magazines in Poland, that I love to read. I don't remember the details, but I remember that operation was a disaster, and Stalin was furious at Zhukov. I imagine that would be swept under the rug. I have to find this articles (it was 3 or 4 parts, each 15-20 pages long and full of statistics from both sides), it was really interesting.
Bruno Ganz est mort en Suisse à l'âge de 77ans. An actor Bruno Ganz died today in Switzedrland. I think it might be important news for people interested in WWII history.
Clarification: "recently published" is too imprecise , the book was released in its English translation in 2013 and originally already in 2007 in Russian.
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Great videos but please shave :p
Don't* shave
He did shave, his head
I have actually heard of it thanks to an amazing set of Russian documentaries on the Eastern Front called Soviet Storm. And it's free here on RUclips
The only part of the mud and blood that surpass W W I around Rzhev in my opinion I have ever read about is Glantz and House "Operation Mars".
There may be an additional consideration as to why the "Rzhev Meatgrinder" is not discussed much in German (or Western) military historiography, and it may be ideological as well. You observed that the struggles for Rzhev do not fit the popular narrative about the war on the Russian front, such as the notion that Hitler refused to permit retreats of any kind. This portrayal of Hitler is an important consideration, because it may contribute to a popular belief that 'Hitler the madman' ordered the German Army to an historically inescapable defeat, once the Red Army counterattacked in Operation Uranus. However, if one sees that Hitler could look to the German defensive victories at Rzhev, when considering whether or not to hold the positions at Stalingrad and the Volga, then his decision to stay and fight is no longer the act of a madman, but rather a decision based on the very recent German experience fighting the Red Army, as well as an appraisal of that Army's evident inability to successfully conduct offensive operations. Including Rzhev in the larger picture will not change the historical outcome of the Battle of Stalingrad, nor of the Second World War, but it might mean that the common, Western portrayal of Hitler as an unthinking, senseless tactician will lose ground - and that the outcome of the war was not as foreordained as is sometimes commonly believed.
i think it is less about that, and more about how from the german view, the battles were not 'battles' but more static defenses, so we dont hear about it for the same reasons that we dont hear about the individual attacks on the mannerheim line or the attacks on the french lines in ww1. It was simply viewed as a general succesful defensive action when they won, which is not too interesting and it simultanerously showed a german defeat in the sense that they were unable to attack from it and capture the railways or move on towards moscow.
I like that you mentioned the war's outcome not being simply a foregone conclusion. I feel this is an overused assessment the general public has of the war, that the Axis were simply doomed from the very start and Russia was 100% guaranteed to bulldoze their way to Berlin and win the war. As battles like Rzhev show, even if the Wehrmacht wasn't able to achieve decisive victories, the Russians were certainly in no position to be winning the war at this stage.
**preordained - so true man.
@@Topfblende What people should understand is that while german army was in the constant decline as more and more experiences troops were killed, soviet army was constantly improoving. Red Army of 1943 and 1941 is like heaven and earth. The tactics are different, the weapons are different, even the uniform is different.
@@Itoyokofan Of course the Red Army was improving. But this was a gradual process and came at the cost of extremely heavy casualties. Apart from the operations around Stalingrad, the Red Army didn't consistently conduct large scale mobile operations successfully until the autumn of 1943. From that point it still took nearly 2 more years of grinding attritional warfare to get to the gates of Berlin. Its tempting to ask how successful this "improved" Red army would have been had it not been for German resources being diverted to fight the western allies, along with the significant destruction inflicted by them. We can also wonder how the Red Army would have been able to conduct these massive offensives late in the war without the significant resources provided through lend lease.
I've heard of Rzhev meat grinder. My grand-granddad was grinded there. In his last letter home he wrote: "As I'm writing those lines, the earth is trembling from the constant barrage". His body - like countless others - was never found, and my grandmother's family was never recognized as a family of a war casualty.
My great grandfather was also a participant there. He went missing on April 1943. Sadly no information is available of him and he never wrote letters back. He was in the Kalinin Front
Much respect to both of your Grandfathers. My Grandfather served in the US 90th infantry division going into France on D day plus 3 and ending up in Czechoslovakia by the end of the war with Pattons 3rd Army which as I’m sure you know was in the Soviet zone of occupation . He had some interactions with Soviet soldiers over there and he had the utmost respect for them and that they seemed very interested in American gear so they traded some stuff. But the scale of brutality and just the vastness of Russia and intensity of the fighting you guys were really fighting for your very existence. My Grandfather did cone up against sone SS units and said they were very good and tough but would shoot medics and mortar field hospitals the kind of stuff you’d expect from them and to think that in 1944 they were still A dangerous enemy imagine being a Russian soldier in 41 or 42 i salute both of your Grandfathers for their valiant defense of their homeland respect from the USA
I was killed near Rzhev
In a nameless bog,
In fifth company,
On the Left flank,
In a cruel air raid
I didn’t hear explosions
And did not see the flash
Down to an abyss from a cliff
No start, no end
And in this whole world
To the end of its days -
Neither patches, nor badges
From my tunic you’ll find
I am where the blind roots
Seek for food in the dark
I am where the rye waves
On a hill in the dust
I am where the cockerel cries
In the dew of the dawn
I am where your cars
Tear the air on highways
Where - small stalk to small stalk -
River’s weaving its grass
Where for the remembrance
Even my mother won’t come
In a bitter year’s summer
I was killed. And for me
Neither news nor bulletins
Will come after this day
Would you, the living, count
How long before that
For the first time in front news
They named Stalingrad
The front burned without stopping
Like a scab on the flesh
I was killed and I don’t know
Is Rzhev ours at last?
Have ours held their ground
There, on the Middle Don?
This was the month of horror
Everything was at stake
Could it be that by autumn
He already took Don?
And he broke through to Volga
Riding onto its bank?
No, it’s not true! That mission
He could never complete.
No way I say, no! Even for the dead
It would be too terrible to hear
Even the dead and voiceless
Have one last single joy
We have fallen for the Motherland
But it’s finally saved.
Our eyes have faded
Out is the flame of our hearts
And up there, at roll calls
They are not calling us.
We’re like bumps or stones
Even darker and dumber.
Our memory eternal -
Who is jealous to it?
Our ashes are rightfully
Owned by black earth
Our eternal glory
Is of little delight.
We shall not wear our
Battle awards
This is all for you, the living,
We have just one last joy
That we didn’t fight in vain
For our Motherland
Let our voice be inaudible
You’ve got to know it now.
And you had to, my brothers,
Stand fast like a wall
For the curse of the dead
Is a terrible wrath
We are forever given
This bitter right
And it is forever ours
This bitter right
In the summer of forty-two
I was buried without a grave
Everything what came later
Was taken by the death
All, what has been for many
So clear and common
But then may it all be
In accord with our belief
Brothers, maybe you didn’t
Lose the Don battlefield only
And were dying in battles
Fighting behind Moscow
And in steppes behind Volga
Dug your trenches in haste
And in battles you marched
To the limits of Europe
For us it would suffice
To know for sure
There was that last inch
On the road of war -
That very last inch:
If it is abandoned,
There’s nowhere to put
The foot that had stepped behind
And you drove the enemy
Back to the West
May it be so, my brethren
And Smolensk’s now ours
And you’re crushing the enemy
On the other front,
And maybe it’s the border
Your are nearing now?
May it be… Let the holy oath’s
Words be fulfilled :
For Berlin, if you remember
Was named near Moscow
Brothers, who now trample
The stronghold of enemy land
If the dead and the fallen
Could only cry!
If only victory salvoes could
Resurrect us for an instant,
Us, deaf and numb,
Us, who rest in eternity
O, my faithful comrades,
Only then at this war
Your limitless happiness
You would realise!
In this happiness there is
Our inalienable part,
Our, severed by the death,
Faith and hatred and passion.
All is ours! We did not cheat,
In this cruel fight,
We have given all ours
And left nothing to ourselves
Everything is bequeathed to you
For all time, not for a term
And this mental voice of ours
Is no reproach to the living.
For we had no distinction
In this war at all:
Those living and those fallen -
We were all equal.
And no one of the living
Is indebted to us
Those, who took up the colours
From us on the run
Only to fall one step later
For the holy cause,
For the Soviet power,
Like all of us.
I was killed at Rzhev,
And he - somewhere near Moscow…
Where are you, warriors, where,
Is there anyone alive?!
In the million-large cities
In the villages, at family homes?
At the military garrisons,
On a foreign land?
Ah, does it really matter
If it’s foreign or ours
If it’s snow-covered or blossoming…
I bequeath you to live -
What more can I do?
I bequeath you to be happy
In your life over there
And to serve your Motherland
With honour for long.
When in sorrow - be proud,
Do not bend down your head
When rejoicing - don’t boast
In the victory hour.
And to safeguard, brothers, this victory,
The happiness of yours, -
In the memory of your warrior-brother
Who has fallen for it.
- Alexander Tvardovsky
Day Y. Weird just read that a moment ago
Not a fan of brevity, that Tvardovsky. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing a whole bunch!
almost as many stanzas as the greek national anthem
@@fuzzydunlop7928 It's not sonnet or verse, it's standalone piece of poetry. There are entire books written that way.
Not to compare with Tvardovsky, but here's a piece of a song written in 2011 about Leningrad siege and Mga forrests.
Then everything will roar and fly somewhere at dawn,
And then swearing push forward on the machine gun,
And trees are upside-down, roots grow to the sky
At this ever glorious battle place of crime
It is a miraculous view. Forests from the fable.
Stumble there on a bump - helmet with no lable.
Take a deeper dig for a spoon and tin,
And above just cloudberry ever grows thin.
Pretty much propaganda, for the Germans, lines on the map not moving was nothing to celebrate, whilst for the Soviets the idea of never ending fascist assaults and finally stopping them in Stalingrad is far better than "we've launched 100s of offensives and they all failed miserably"
@ThyPeasantSlayer what's its name please
@@elbolainas4174 Rzev
You brilliantly summarised it. Germany lost more men in this battle (140-160,000 KIA) than the 1916 battle of Verdun (120-140,000 KIA) and as you correctly said, for no gains. At least Verdun had like a see-saw movement of German gains followed by the French retaking their gains. In Rzhev there was nothing to celebrate. "We killed houndreds of thousands of Soviets...and we ourselves lost over 100,000 KIA" is not propaganda worthy material. Thank you for the comment.
@@twoheadeddatascientist3289 1. There was nothing to celebrate at Verdun either really. It was a huge French morale victory. Germany gained nothing but a few Napoleonic era "Fortresses", and unlike at Rzhev, the Germans only inflicted slightly more casualties on there opponent.
2. I'd argue there was some propaganda benefit to Rzhev, after all, it's the main source of the Soviet "human wave" stereotype of unimaginative Sledgehammer blows began.
The first rule of Rzhev is: don't talk about Rzhev.
Rule #2 see rule #1!!
I learned about it in the Russian /English translated show the Soviet Storm.
yeah, that one came out shortly after the book the "Rzhev Slaughterhouse", not sure how much of an impact the book had in Russia. I assume quite some.
Yes, That is a great documentary! It's over an hour long and it's extremely well made. I wish TV in America would produce stuff like that still.
Yes thats where I heard of it its a good series
If I remember it’s a 9 part series and I watched it on Amazon Prime.
Military History not Visualized episode 6 covers the Rzhev in good detail. I have a degree in history and starting relearning the Eastern Front from this series. Also a United States Marine from 1986-96.
This is without a doubt one of the best history channels on RUclips. Thanks for the work you put into this. *:-)*
Yeah no shit
I agree. I get my smart unbiased opinions from MHV (and MH not V).
Weak1987 all humans are biased so wth are you on about?
I'm glad you mention the books not being harmed in the production. Wouldn't want People for the Ethical Treatment of Books (PETB) organizing a boycott of this channel!
Topless librarians ftw.
Books have feelings too.
@@squamish4244 #bookslivesmatter
What happened after the Russians ran out of planets to name their operations after?
😂
operation jupiter 2 elektric boogaloo
Bagratian
Operation Dyson Swarm!
They named the operation "Your Anus" for a reason. And that anus was German and they knew what was coming and aSSumed the position :)
One other reason why the German literature did not mention the battle, in my opinion, is the most important one. The German scholarship does not have access to a lot of independent sources on the battles at the Eastern Front, because the most of the German archives related to the Eastern Front were seized by the Soviets and the Soviet-affiliated DDR after the war. So, Russian Defense Ministry Archive in Podolsk, up to this day, still keeps both the Soviet AND the German documents about the Eastern Front, and most of them are still classified. That's why most of the German books You are reading about the Eastern Front are mostly based on the Soviet narrative about the war, slightly enriched here and there by the soldiers' memoirs and what little the German scholars could obtain in the Russian archive.
Yet a huge amount of archival material became available in the 1990s and historians from many countries swarmed into Russia to gather it up, interview veterans etc. Our knowledge of the Eastern Front expanded dramatically. Perhaps it is Rzhev in particular that is kept classified.
valar There was no large scale declassification in Russia. Just ask Russian historians of WWII, who try to research stuff. WWII secrets are very carefully guarded
jurisprudens
True. Even information on vehicles and planes-of-war from the 1950’s are still classified.
jurisprudens what is the reason for the continued classification? My guess is it’s to hide something that would embarrass the Soviet Union and by extension the modern Russian federation. Such as massive casualties in senseless counterattacks or extreme incompetence on the part of soviet commanders. Communists are always extremely concerned about their world appearance.
No sane person would believe USSR info. They covered their losses and mistakes, partly because for some generals it meant death.
And even though, some good independent historians
found some facts by comparing docs that were not
seized. And they sort of built a more
realistic history.
I liked how one of them when asked why red army suffered such losses having so many tanks and plains said: Tanks dont fight battles, people do. Those people hated stalin and ussr. All first and second year they happily gave up or simply ran home or to the german side. germans themselves were amazed how easily they gave up. But after all, they werent fighting an army, they were fighting slave army that had nothing to defend.
All thanks to the crazy blood thirsty psychopath in Kremlin.
To summarize: Rzhev don't comply with the general view of the war, and is too complex for the average reader :P
Not "too complex", but rather "too simple" and "anti-climactic" .
More like "not fun enough." Too much Erich Maria Remarque, not enough Michael Bay.
@Felipe Scheuermann "Sent millions of men and thousands of tanks into oblivion" pretty heavily conveys "to die"
@Felipe Scheuermann the german documents weren't captured. To my knowledge, they never really wrote anything about the conflict besides some regional reports that were lost to time. There are very few German accounts floating around of the battle, and to my knowledge Nazi high command saw the whole ordeal as another set of numbers on a spreadsheet rather than a significant event'
Because it didn’t matter
My great-grandfather was seriously wounded during the first day, I think it was August 4th 1942, of the summer Rzhev offensive. And if I am not mistaken it was the second major offensive on Rzhev. He was likely hit by a counter barrage. Was part of a Guards mortar crew. Really enjoy your videos man, it's a shame our ancestors had to die for retarded ideologies, could have sat in a bar and drank beer together.
Maybe they would have started to fight in the bar because the Germans wanted to drink schnapps, and the Russians wanted vodka...
Quixote they would get creative and make a cocktail ;)
My Dad went through the ETO and Korea. He actually had a chance to drink beer after WWII with former German soldiers. Interact with Chinese Communist POW's. Concluded people were not the problem.
And we still learned nothing, apparently.
@@Tom_Quixote there are cases where both russians and germans did drink together in the war on the front they put the war aside n had fun as men
If you are interested in how the Rzhev salient was formed, why Germans wanted to hold on it and in what point they were forced to abandon it, I highly recommend videos by Eastory about the eastern front if you havent seen it already, incredibly detailed map videos that put everything into context.
I think maybe the reason why Rzhev might be ignored in german view is, that in retrospective, holding the salient was one of the biggest german mistakes, because it tied up most of the german forces that were desperatly needed in the south, which is I think what caused the crushing defeat of the overstretched Army group South.
They should have abandoned it because after Stalingrad they were forced to do so anyway to fill the collapsing lines in the south.
I also recommended soviet storm ww2 in the east and their video on it
I kinda like to use this piece of data to demonstrate why Mars failed while Uranus succeded: 39th Panzer Corps of the Army Group Center alone used more ammunition than entire 6th Army at Stalingrad. During November 1942 39th PzK consumed between 500 to 800 tonnes of artillery shells per day on average while maintaining constant reserve of 3000 tonnes of ammunition. In comparison entire 6th Army (six corps in total against one) consumed about 200-400 tonnes of ammunition per day in November 1942.
Wow ! Unbelievable it is hard to imagine so much !
Good point. Link to documentation please?
This video made me look forward to hearing Indy Neidell talk about Rzhev once a week starting 2021
Sort of like how he always had a mention of the Battle(s) of the Isonzo river
It seems like it was just a huge sinkhole to throw men into as the insane amounts of causalities boggles the mind. I doubt it looks good in reflection for either side, regardless of who ever holds the salients and who that fails it. Also the fact it wasn't any thing "decisive" could also explain why no one wants to talk about it.
> I doubt it looks good in reflection for either side
Yes, but German military historians generally don't care if something looks bad or not for "their side", quite on the contrary usually. Especially, considering Case Blue & Stalingrad, where they clearly state the various shortcomings of the German military as well and not solely blame Hitler nor Paulus.
As an “older” history major, I think a great reason this battle was largely ignored was for political reasons during the Cold War;
1. Didn’t the Soviets give the plans to the Germans via a Double Agent, in Zhukov’s name, without his knowledge? Sacrificing thousands of soldiers would not have been good for the Soviet people to know post-war.
2. It doesn’t fit the Cold War narrative that seemed to be that it was all Hitler’s meddling that lost battles. Simplified answers, yes, but the Cold War period was rife with propaganda from both sides. History was used literally as a weapon....
simplicius
Yes, I absolutely agree with what you say! I was commenting as to why so little of this battle was discussed.
After the War, it was fairly worthless to both East & West as a propaganda tool. As a student during the late 1970’s, looking back it was amazing how much history was “distorted” for Cold War propaganda. I would really like to see someone do a dissertation of the study of World War 2 as seen through the 1970’s-80’s😊
Here's another way to look at it from the German side: You can argue that Case Blau failed because the Germans had so many troops committed to other fronts. If they weren't defending such a long and active front they might have been able to force their way through in the south.
While the Soviet offensives in the center "failed" they may have succeeded in robbing the German armies in the south of the reinforcements they would have needed to have succeeded. This would have made Rzhev a tactical victory and strategic defeat for the Germans and a tactical defeat but strategic victory for the Soviets. But the consequences were realized in the south.
That is similar to the Vietnamese strategy at Khe Sanh, although the American proclaimed it a victory, it was the purpose of Giap to tie down as many U.S. troops as possible there while the Tet Offensive was being carried out in the rest of South Vietnam.
I have been an amateur student of war for most of my life, but only recently heard od Rzhev due to a few new wargames on the subject, now a book, and some YT vids. Thank you for educating me!
David Glantz book:
Zhukov's Greatest Defeat: The Red Army's Epic Disaster in Operation Mars, 1942 (Modern War Studies) Paperback - April 28, 1999
covered the Rzev salient fighting from start to finish, IIRC. I believe he used both Soviet and German archives.
The numbers of people who fought in the war is mind boggling
My father past that period of WW2.
Kalininski front. HE was a miner..
Past all 4 years of war..
Never been even wounded.
Only in siege of K enigsberg
He could be killed.
Germans cntr attack .
A huge German soldier try to kill him with dagger .
He grab blade by fingers and strike
guy with small miners shovel..
3 Soldiers Glory..Order of Great Patriotic War..medal for Kenigsberg.
1911-2003.
I AM PROUD OF YOU DAD..
YOU ARE MY HERO..
GLORY TO ALL SOVIET PEOPLE
PERISHED IN WAR..
From German point of view, the fact that majority of AGC archives were lost in 1944 might be a factor...
What is AGC and what exactly happened in 1944?
@@jurisprudens the german army archives in Potsdam were bombed in 1944 causing a massive loss of information from the german side
@@korsan4954 Ok, thanks.
I know that those archives that did survive mostly got into the Soviet occupation zone and the DDR. Most of the documents on the Eastern Front was removed to the USSR and is now still kept in the Russian Defense Ministry Archive in Podolsk. Still mostly classified. ;)
@@jurisprudens AGC is Army Group Center and they lost the majority of their archives in a bombing raid on Potsdam.
Historians read archives. Looool
Because people outside of Slavic countries can't pronounce "Rzhev".
Nebojša G. Yeah they can
@@boboayame2065 Anglophones have the most problems.
It's easy for Spanish speakers
I have no problem saying Rzhev, maybe it’s because I know a very small amount of Ukrainian which is very close to Russian or maybe it’s because I listen to a lot of Slavic music. Though I doubt even my friends who know very little of any Slavic language would have any issues saying it.
@Harry Lagom Is really "sjuksköterska" a hard word?
Another great video. I've bought "Stalin's Greatest Defeat" but not read it yet. (I have to get thru the Stalingrad series first.) I think you are in to something with the fact that Rzhev doesn't fit into "the narrative." "The generals were always right and Hitler was always wrong." David House gave a lecture where he went into this. I've also seen a lecture where Gerhard Weinberg addressed Rshev. He said that the German withdrawal had negative consequences that were both tactical and strategic. Tactically, it shortened the lines for the Russians as well as the Germans. This allowed them to concentrate at Kursk. Strategically, by removing the threat to Moscow, the Germans allowed the Russians to think offensively as opposed to counter-offensively. You can think about winning when don't have to think about not losing.
On one of TIK's video's he say's that the Germans made a terrible mistake by not sending proper reinforcements to Stalingrad and instead sending them to Army Group Center when it was clear they needed them at Stalingrad instead. He even went as far as to say they probably would have won at Stalingrad had they sent the correct number of reinforcements. However... Perhaps TIK had forgotten about the Rzhev Meat Grinder and maybe this is why they sent so many reinforcements to AGC? I don't know but TIK has always taught me to ask myself "Is this really so?"
Yeah, I remember that video. After watching this, I think I need to rewatch that again to get a refresher of what he said exactly, and how it relates to the information in this video.
I also remembered that vid. I m wondering if they did what TIK said than operation Mars would have been a success and Uranus would have ended in a failure.
Uranus had better commanders: Vasilevsky (a less well-known but altogether a better staff planner than Zhukov), Vatutin (rising star and mechanised warfare talent, whose life was unfortunately cut short), and Rokossovsky (the gentleman commander) and it went against the weaker of the Axis forces: Hungarian, Italian, and Romanian.
Mars still had good commanders: Zhukov, despite his ruthless quality. Konev (ultimately one of two front commanders who assaulted Berlin) and Purkhayev weren't bad commanders. However, the offensive wasn't well prepared. Artillery was short on shells, and the men were ill-trained. They ran up against the strongest of opponents. They were still learning the hard way.
Fast forward to 1944 and you can see the commanders matured. The men were trained and prepared according to the terrain. They properly massed munitions and supplies.
TIK is an insightful dude and has interesting things to say. I think he tends to over-emphasize his analysis of events more than emphasizing the events themselves. He also tends to forget that we see A lead to B which leads to C when things are not nearly so clear on the ground at the time. He also tends to forget that if you change B in that equation, it has knock on effects that change everything and may lead to a completely different outcome altogether.
It's a fine line analyzing history. Particularly history that's already been analyzed to death. It's also necessary for content creators to create interesting hooks into their content. I think he sometimes crosses the line but he does provide an interesting POV on all the topics he covers. You just have to be careful with conclusions and such. In general, there are very few conclusions we can take. Yet we would like for many, many more to be there. I think history is better used as a guide for the future more so than a true representation of the past. It's weird.
@@AAA9734 TIK said that even though Army Group South, specifically the forces in Stalingrad, suffered the heaviest losses but Center got more reinforcements. He used this as a way to blame Franz Halder for the German defeat because he's so obsessed with taking Moscow. TIK did however talk about Operation Mars in his Fall Blau video, which made me reconsider why they would send replacements to the center. As MHV said, the Soviets had way more units around Moscow and they were both taking heavy losses. Even if it was less than at Stalingrad, if there were so many more Soviet troops that's a logical reason for sending more men to that spot.
I have studied world war two for years and have many books about the main battles and somehow this was never mentioned in any of them. A huge battle lasting over a fucking year! More troops were sent here than Stalingrad by the soviets.
Picked up "Zhukov's Greatest Defeat" by Glantz a few years back and always bring up Operations Mars / Jupiter when people like to oversimplify the Eastern front. Very well researched and argued book if you don't already have it in your collection!
I think one of the main reasons is that it contradicts the myth that Zhukov never lost a battle.
Honestly... I agree completely. USSR definetily had something to do with this.
The omission of the Rzhev campaign is like when a large novel is written and when it is made into a movie a couple of main characters are left out because of time limits. Like when Peter Jackson left Tom Bombadill out of his Lord of the Rings trilogy.
My great grandfather participated in Rzhev. Went missing on April 1943.
Man. That’s a whole new channel or at least a playlist “”The Meat Grinders”” featuring the Battles of Lorraine, Mulhouse, Passchendaele, Verdun to Crete, Brest fortress, Tula, Perekop, Sevastopol, Omaha....etc. You’ll have grandkids before the final editing.
I've heard about it in a Russian documentary that was translated by the BBC I think, it's called Soviet Storm WW2 in the east and there is an episode about it
Soviet Storm might the best documentary about WW2 that I've ever seen.
Cheers for mentioning it. This one, ruclips.net/video/vnhOTwSL5pI/видео.html. All the episodes are at this playlist, ruclips.net/p/PLwGzY25TNHPC_SsXFcIH-ba0nWuNbHOM6
So, Rzhev is the six chapters from the book the editor cut because "it doesn't move the story forward." Gotta love another example of the fact that "history" is often written to be interesting, and not just to fully explain what happened.
Editors are the bane of good scholarship.
Thanks for covering stuff other than the "big few" the documentary channels do over and over. Even before the click=money era, whatever made for the best story is what got attention. I'm sure this was plenty important to the people taking part - and to any serious student of the war as well.
Commenting for the algorithm
Watched the video, upvoted, clicked the bell icon, liked the video and also left the video playing on my other machine for the algorithm.
Replying for algorithms
generic superficial counter argument for the algorithm
Long live Al Gore and his rhythm!
Angry and incoherent rambling about some aspect of the algorithm, with reference to some random conspiracy.
I find the notion that Hitler obsessed about Stalingrad, and was willing to squander whole armies in an attempt to bring it to it's knees, because of the 'symbolism' of the name, utterly ridiculous. Hitler, unlike many of his generals, understood the strategic significance of the region. He understood that controlling and ultimately redirecting the flow of oil was crucial to the outcome of the War. If his generals had also grasped that reality instead of simply seeking to repeat the mistakes made by Napoleon, the outcome of the Eastern Campaign may have been quite different.
very educational, i forget where i first heard of the meat grinder, but when i just tried to re-look it up the other day, i couldnt find anything, but then i go to youtube and find your video and you help to explain why its been so forgotten.... i can def agree with your view, between stalingrad to khursk Rzhev was always there.... and also a very intersting point you made, that hitler actually pulled back.... never knew that. Thanks!
My grandgrandfather was captured between Rzhev and Smolensk somewhere in the end of the autumn 1941
.
Died in a prisoncamp 352 near Minsk 1942.
Yaay, operation Mars and Jupiter
It is probable that the offensives around Rzhev were considered the main assault while Stalingrad (Operation Uranus and Saturn) would have been a big diversion. Alas the results were way better in Stalingrad and thus they switched the entire narrative. Note that Rzhev would have a significant impact on the outcome of Stalingrad. When operation Mars began nearly 70% of Manstein's panzer meant to save Paulus during Unternehmen Wintergewitter were allocated to Model instead as Rzhev was more important in the eyes of Hitler (it is way closer to Moscow)
Ignace Jespers, I am not a specialist on this, but esp in the eyes of Hitler the South was always more important than Center. The decision for Moscow in 41 was a willing misinterpretion of Hitler´s orders by Halder. Pls correct me if I misinterpreted your comment.
I dont think so, if I remember correctly there were more resources asigned at operation Uranus than at Rzhev, also if operation mars have succeded it would have caused a lot of casualities and maybe more territory occupied, but not much else, however, Uranus and eventually Saturn collapsed the entire case blue operation and caused the biggest defeat to germany up to that point
In my opinion there are two different reasons why the Rzhev salient battles were forgotten. On the Soviet side because the results of the sustained offensive were catastrophic and, as mentioned, they use to ignore in their history books such operations. And in the German side because they didn't represent a substantial change of the general frontline. But what is sure is that the German High Command was well aware of the importance of the defensive battles of Rhzev because Walter Model was promoted to Field marshal as a result of his successfull stoping of the Soviet ofensive.
I learned about it because of the Soviet storm documentary. Then did a lot of research on it. Fascinating. Cheers
Feder Von Bock and Gunther iirc, the two main field marshalls who ran that battle on the German side at least died before the war was over, so they never released personal memoirs on it.
Considering Germany had generals who were preeminent at maneuver warfare, I'm surprised the Germans didn't simply decide to create a trap for the Russians by allowing them to advance to a given point in the Rzhev pocket and then perform one of their patented pincer movements to cut off the advancing armies. Kind of like they did at the 2nd Battle of Kharkov. I think Manstein proposed that exact strategy to Hitler prior to the Kursk battle (Manstein's "Backhand" strategy), but Hitler wanted an offensive there (the "Forehand" strategy).
I always found interesting the fact that a particular place in the eastern front was called "the meat grinder", it's almost like calling a spot in the antartica "the cold spot",and was not mentioned that much, I guess it's because is in the middle of two major soviet victories, moscow and stalingrad. I can't even imagine what it would be like for those people being "grinded" there
The Northern front sector (from Murmansk to the Rzhew-Vyaz'ma salient) was a stalemate situation for about two years - which ressembled to WW1. And nobody liked these remembrances. This is due to the fact that Northern Russia is dominated by forrest. Although, the toppling blow happened in the central front sector in summer 1944, the outcome of the German-Soviet war was decided in the steppes of the South in the two years before.
The most bloodiest unknown battle in history along with the 1915 Carpathian Campain
I have many ww2 books and have never read about it. However (and it may surprise you) I know it from Russian TV documentary. There is whole episode about it.
Haha, exact same here. I just saw it last week. It's called Rzhev: General Zhukov's Unknown Battle
. It's over an hour long and I loved it.
mugwump58 This one is also good (slight Russia bias, but who cares)
ruclips.net/video/h_UHNcqIYEg/видео.html
@@v4enthusiast541 This is the document I was talking about.
Soviet storm 👌
This was covered extensively in David Glantz' "Operation Mars - Shukov's greatest Defeat".
I literally read about this the other day. The casualty numbers were simply staggering. The eastern front made our fight in the west look like a childrens tea party. People are slowly starting to realise how terribly the Russians suffered to break the back of the German war machine.
G'day,
I can recall reading of the "Rzhev Pocket" in about 1978, in Len Deighton's novel "Bomber".
One character was an SS Cavalry Colonel, retired wounded with frostbite & shrapnel & amputations, and such, to a sinecure running a complex of Stables to provide Horses for State Ceremonial Occasions....
Another character mistakes the gangrenous Colonel for being a WW-1 Veteran, and is corrected with a description of an SS Cavalry Patrol in the Rzehv Pocket - employed due to the Snow depth (?) getting caught and artilleried in the clearing between patches of Forest...
The mistaken observer is shocked that the "old man" is not yet 25, and muses that,
"...These days a little Skirmish would barely rate a mention in the daily Situation Report...."
So, there you go...; the one mention of Rzhev which I encountered as a kid in Oz indicated that it was a Meat-Grinder which deepy impressed everybody who was there at the time, but immediately afterwards became dwarfed by the scale of much bigger & bloodier Slaughterhouse Battles...
Maybe the German Psyche has edited Rzhev from it's Narrative because it was all pointless self-sacrificial bravery being wasted in a hopeless attempt to militarily defeat and occupy the USSR for a suicidal Ideology...?
Some silly ideas are best forgotten, perhaps...
Such is Life,
Have a good one.
;-p
Ciao !
Excellent book! Should be reprinted.
G'day,
Too true..., as I recall it, "Bomber" was the first published Book to have been entirely written using a Word-Processor rather than a Typewriter...; so it probably deserves a Resurrection merely as an Historical Cultural Artifact, as well as being a very vibrant explanation of RAF Bomber Command's nocturnal Incendiary Area-Bombing Campaign against Germany, and the Nachtjagdwaffe's Defences, in 1943-44.
Have a good one,
;-p
Ciao !
It has actually been argued that the Rhzev salient was actually part of a grand plan to encircle Army Group Center via Vyazma. You can look at the order of battle and how they implemented a precursor to deep battle by deploying tank armies in the area. People love forgetting that the salient was still right next to Moscow. Also the Rhzev salient extended the front too much so it would have been good to shorten the front. Very interesting perspective btw on the perspective that the Germans were on the offensive in 1942 + the view that Hitler never listened to his generals.
First of all hitler did listen to his generals until right after Stalingrad and some of the generals made a major amount of the stupid mistakes that lead to the loss of the war u need to watch “TIKHISTORY” he does the most detailed and fact checked videos of ww2 and the truths of hitler everyone here should watch “TIKHISTORY” but this guy that made this video is pretty darn good too I must add. Much appreciation to all the dedicated historians who keep us updated and educated on world conflicts that should be remembered! Btw Fk Communism !
RUclips forced a minute-long ad. I hope you get well-paid for this.
He's a bit busy to respond right now, too busy sharing caviar with Stalin.
@@RapidAssaultEuro I always suspected he was a Russian spy. He's too German to actually be German. He's like the Russian spies who make up the entirety of the population who go to baseball games. We all know no one actually watches baseball.
As a social scientist, it is interesting that this enormous battle, since it cannot be given a clear "narrative structure", is sort-of awkwardly forgotten. It shows the power of narratives when humans re-tell the history for themselves.
While at it, I believe the reason we still make more videos about WW2 than about the wars since 1945, is that WW2 has an extraordinary clear narrative structure - actually wholly similar to a standard Hollywood move: A clear structure that no recent war can match (it helps that WW2 was so big, but I think this is of secondary importance). Here is the narrative structure of WW2, notice how Hollywoodish it is: 1) bad guy meets good guy; 2) bad guy almost wins; 3) good guy wins.
Not just that but it’s interesting to see how everyone seems to think they know everything about everything with this conflict, but you’ll never see such claims from so many about the Great War, or the Korean War before or after, which I find interesting being mankind’s largest conflict that doesn’t even have a set start date
The Soviets suffered more casualties in Rhzev than in Stalingrad, some Russian authors actually claiming double the amount.
I have heard about it and read a lot about it. I think that the German successes in holding it against repeated large scale soviet offensives for a year and a half eventually lulled German commanders into the false sense of superiority and complacency which got Army Group Centre destroyed in less than two months during the early summer of 1944 by Operation Bagration.
Thank you for doing this. For me it was one of the most interesting, unknown and important parts of the war.
Great coverage of a relatively unknown segment of the war. I got here from watching “1942:Unknown Battle”, a Russian movie on Prime.
thank you, lol a reviewed the trailer of that movie a while ago: ruclips.net/video/UCtFGf-lRAk/видео.html
First of all thank you for your series of videos about WWII. I enjoy them very much, they are very informative and easy to follow. Now to the topic of your video. I understand and agree on your view from the Soviet perspective. But from the German perspective: 1. Could it simply be because of the nature of the two operations that you mentioned? The front during Case Blue was way more mobile and eventful all the way to the conclusion of Op. Wintergewitter.. Many major battles were fought along vast amounts of territories and achieved very notable results. While the series of battles of Rzhev, mostly kept similar fronts until the German withdrawal? They did not have the same mobility, but more the character of attritional battles. It was in a way "nothing more" than about holding the line for the Germans. 2. Could it also be concluded that since Germany for the greater part of the war up until then, had mostly been advancing? All major battles up until Stalingrad had been victorious, while Rzhev even though holding out, inflicting enormous casualties and stopping a major Soviet offensive, did not produce neither a victory nor a defeat over the Red Army? Thusly neither any need to highlight it as a triumph nor seek excuses for a defeat.
In a way the Germans were forced to abandon the idea of capturing Moscow after the battles was concluded with their evacuation from the salient and that might be considered a defeat and turning point of the war in it self although executed with less frontline movement drama even though the battles still were bloody as hell. Read about the total amount of casualties, around 3 000 000 ( among 1-1,5 million dead Soviets) in total.. Phew..
It’s because history are written and only widely accepted if it is told by American and British. Many Chinese-Japanese battles are not told and recognized by the English Speaking World either, like Sino-German and Sini Soviet cooperations in WW2. This is one of the reason Chinese resent English Speaking Ignorant world. I even sense that German sometimes have the same frustration, like German side of WW2 aren’t important.
People tell their own stories. If you want the Battles in China that is hardly the job of Americans or British. The Communist government of China has also not told the stories of the Nationalist Chinese Army against Japan. This is beginning to change but will have a PLO slant.
News flash: Everyone states biased jargon. Even Chinese do this. A lot of people don't feel comfortable trusting what Chinese say regarding certain subjects. It's a long story and complex to explain. In the western part of the world a lot people have formed extreme skepticism to trust anything that has communism related to it because of understandable reasons thanks to what U.S.S.R. and other governments like it were found doing. When someone like Stalin erases an entire guy out of a film and pictures... it does not help and ensuring they can trust another one with communism in it. They worry they might encounter another case of historical revisionism all thanks to some guy in office there decided to keep things hush hush, and would not find out about it only years after. They will instinctively question and scrutinize anything the Chinese says because of these past experiences.
Besides, I dislike learning about ww2. People globally have become so morally corrupt over the years they just use ww2 to do nationalistic jingoistic dick measure each other now. I have seen people say, "It didn't matter if they were there or not. We could have won without them on our own," from everyone. I mean EVERYONE. This is a sign you can't trust anything from anyone talking about ww2 now. It's too filled with the jingoism and local nationalism now. You are better off learning own your own by investigation.
sharkfinbite
I don’t disagree with you. However, to say the more Chinese accounts of WW2 are exaggerated, so no Chinese account should be accepted? Also what about Chinese Nationalists accounts? In this video, Germans also feel this biased as well. Because American/ British are in general more creditable, does that mean they don’t spin crap? Your claim can almost be viewed as racially or maybe Anglo Centric biased.
Men of War game mentions Rzhev-Vyazma salient. I think a couple of the first missions are actually supposed to be based in that area..
I learned about Rzhev back in the early '80s through playing the GDW board game "White Death" It was a pretty decent game.
I agree that it doesn't fit in the "traditional" narrative, but i definitely think there is more to it than that. The southern campaign of mid '42 to early '43 has a decisiveness to it lacking in the center. The early portion sees the classic panzer formations taking 15 or 20km a day, overwhelming the front, countered by a massive Soviet counter attack that completely encircles an entire army and annihilates it.
In the Rzhev area, and advance of a few hundred yards was considered a successful day. The fighting was more akin to WW1, with static trench warfare and tit for tat offensives and counter-offensives. The Soviets committed more manpower to the area true, but it was a more drawn out affair, with more manpower stationed there at any given point.
Additionally, Rzhev could arguably be seen as a draw, the Germans were eventually forced to pull back but it was on their terms. Given the manpower shortage, particularly after Stalingrad, they could not have held indefinitely and there situation was tenuous at best by early '43. The Soviets suffered more casualties and failed to destroy the units present, but in the theater were unquestionably a greater threat to the Germans offensively than the Germans were to them.
There's a doc about it on youtube, Soviet Storm(English dub), part of an 18 or so doc series produced in Russia in 2011. I'm sure Military History not Visualized could be a better judge of its veracity than me but I found it fairly interesting.
Learned about Rzhev in Company of Heroes 2.
Well argued and a needed analysis as time moves on and things fade.
2521 A.D., still: "Why have we never heard of Xxy-battle, where 10.000.000 Soviet/German-soldiers fought, and half of them died... (???)" Answer: Cause we are westerners, and grew up with Hollywood-movies about the war, always thinking that THIS was the war, while the war was totally somewhere else... I have heard of Rzhev Meat Grinder, many times, althought material is always sparse...
Wait a second, Fallschirmjager were at Rzhev? Holly parachute of the Kurt Student!
Another big embarrassment for Zhukov was him allowing Manstein to break out of his encirclement.
Thank you for bringing it up!
Very nice summary. I think another factor which played probably also a role is that the Soviet generals were in some competition with each other and for history you prefer as the winner to focus more on your successes then your defeats.
Most annoying map in CoH 2....
Scipio Africanus You can count on Osttruppen!
No really you can.
Volksgranadiers are on the line...
We are grenadeers not pioneers
You want us to do what?
I remember this from an old documentary called Soviet Storm.
It's been a minute but I remember it being a pretty good show.
Aw snap! The entire series is on youtube. Gonna be busy for the next 12 hours.....
1.5k likes.... pressed like, now 1.6k likes. *Das ist der Sieg*
success has many parents but failure is an orphan.
It would be interesting to do a video comparing Zhukov to Konev. Initially I was pro-Zhukov but on studying the two men and their styles more, I think Konev was the better commander. He was far better at conserving his forces and inflicting casualties on the enemy whereas Zhukov was all too often indifferent. The battle of the Korsun pocket shows this with respect to Konev.
Im rather sure 90% or more of people who know Zhukov and Konev are pro-Zhukov just because of Zhukov’s prestige and stuff, I don’t blame you for thinking the same
The I heard about it from the Memoir '44 scenario of Rzhev. ...best game in the world for obscure WWII battles of any size, from single squads to massive armygroups - it got all of them. /plug
I can understand why the Soviets wanted to sweep these battles under the carpet but I also understand the strategic importance of these operations to the Soviet war effort.
The measure of the success or failure of a military campaign is whether or not you meet your objectives.
The German strategic objective was to destroy the Soviet Union as a nation, occupy European Russia to the Volga and depopulate the country by 30 million through starvation / migration while enslaving those remaining they deemed ethnically inferior.
The Germans never even met their Barbarossa objectives of seizing Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov let alone the defeat of the Red Army, the collapse of the USSR and Europe east to the Volga under her control. The Soviets DID meet their objective of driving the Germans out of Russia so no matter how you look at it the Rzhev offensives were a strategic success even though they were operational failures.
Americans should study this war because they seem to delight in operational success but can never seem to turn operational success into a strategic victory and the vast majority of them don't seem to understand the difference.
I never even really encountered The Meatgrinder until I read Gorbachevsky’s memoir “Through the Maelstrom”. I learned one more place in time I’d never want to visit.
His memoir was good but paled in comparison to The Forgotten Soldier by Sajer which I read just after.
Enjoyed your ideas and agree with them.
Vielen Dank für diese Geschichte, Grüße aus Holland
I've come across interpretations of the eastern front that say that the Rzhev salient and the destruction of Army Group Centre was the principal point and focus of Soviet strategy in the middle of the war and it was Stalingrad that was the sideshow, intended to relieve pressure in that area.
So due to a rather pedestrian nature and the fact that it doesn't conform or add to the popular narratives, it is ignored (or rather just not used as an example) by our current crop of historians.
The fact that the event was prolonged and drawn out IMO does not justify neglect if not solely for the fact the meat grinder took about 2,3 mil Soviet lives which is more than casualties around Stalingrad on two sides combined
I could not find a single micro wargame published for the battle of Rzhev. I would recommend contacting your favourite wargame publisher about submitting a scenario for Rzhev. You might even be able to talk them into a cross-promotional deal so you can have this channel promoted on the packaging. I know a few wargamers that have played through every battle, in order, of the US Civil War so I would think there must be at least a few that have done the same for the Eastern Front during WWII. Not having an "officially" published scenario for the centre of the front must be disappointing.
Hi, great video. Would you ease consider making a video about the battle of the Hurtgen forrest? Similar to the Rhzev meat grinder, it's barely mentioned as it was mostly an embarrassment to the U.S. I read about it and the underreporting that bordered on a cover up in The Battle of Hurtgen Forrest by Charlse Whiting. An excellent book.
Well, it' take a lot to learn about even operation like Bagration, who's mainly overshadowed by the operation Overlord... So a brutal stalemate like Rzhev, caught between Stalingrad and Kharkov, it's no wonder...
Another high quality, well researched video. 👍👍
can you talk about the battle of "Demyansk pocket"? This battle happened right after stalingrad, early 1943, and was notable for the first use of the Sturmgwehr in battle - several thousand of these early MP43/44 rifles plus ammunition were suposedly air-dropped (or otherwise issued )to the Wehrmacht units trapped in the pocket, and they effectively used the new gun to help fight their way out of it. Anything from your German sources about that I would find very interesting -
I know it from Soviet Storm
It all was on, while also on other parts of the front major battles took place like stalingrad or the siege of leningrad
I have heard of it , but not in detail , good post ! You should do something on Kalkin Gol , in Mongolia , that battle kept Japan from getting involved in Russia , and resulted in no combat with Japan until 1945 .
An old computer wargame series called V for Victory covered this battle in 1992. Atomic Games produced V for Victory: Velikiye Luki. Frank Chadwick also did a tabletop game called White Death: Velikiye Luki, The Stalingrad of the North, that I have not played but looks excellent.
Played the V for Victory game (actually still have the disks)--as the German, you keep running around trying to blunt Soviet attacks--there's no rest, no time to regroup.
Very interesting video about a little known subject.
I've read extensively about Operation Mars about 2 years ago. There are many monthly magazines in Poland, that I love to read. I don't remember the details, but I remember that operation was a disaster, and Stalin was furious at Zhukov. I imagine that would be swept under the rug. I have to find this articles (it was 3 or 4 parts, each 15-20 pages long and full of statistics from both sides), it was really interesting.
Bruno Ganz est mort en Suisse à l'âge de 77ans. An actor Bruno Ganz died today in Switzedrland. I think it might be important news for people interested in WWII history.
fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Ganz
thanks for not harming the books. :-)
Always!
I remember a Soviet Storm episode about Rzhev, but I can't find it on RUclips now.
Your beard has leveled up! Great video. thanks
Company of Heroes 2 makes reference to the poem on the loading screen
Good presentation. And not to be shallow but love your accent.
Rzhev is where Model beat Konev and Zhukov
I love your channel. It is extremely informative and you have a beautiful beard in this video. Thank you and please continue the good work.