Can You Still Find VALUE In BURGUNDY? Well.. This Blind Tasting DIDN’T Go As Expected!
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
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I blind taste red wines of Burgundy - from regional to Grand Cru - to see if they deliver in terms of quality and price.
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**CONTENTS OF THIS VIDEO:
0:00 Burgundy Red Wine Tasting
0:49 Burgundy Wine Quality Tiers
3:07 The Tasting
10:01 The Verdict & Reveal
#winetasting #wineeducation #wine
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As long as people keep paying these prices, nothing changes.
This is exactly what I always say. 👍👍
Agreed. I can see it changing some years from now for a few different reasons but I think the trend continues for a while first.
We can immediately tell your favourite wine just by looking at your face as you're diving into the glass. I've seen from other comments that I'm not the only one who thinks the enthusiasm is contagious and super catchy! (Incidentally, I guessed the same as you across the video and got it right -the Echezeaux was typical the way you described it as far as I've tasted and read, got it too. That's bittersweet, because I still think I should fully give in to the world of wine.)
Yes, I keep saying that I cannot play poker, because You can see every single emotion in my face. 😂🫣 And thank You, I am very happy that my description makes sense to You. 🙏🏻
I like that in a polite way you were able to say you were disappointed with the Gand Crue wine. I also liked when you said that these are not wine you drink every day, week, or month 😂
some of these channels make it look like you guys only drink expensive wine all the time, I'm glad you are saying that this is not the case 😊😘
Thank You very much for the compliment. 🙏🏻 I try to be as honest as possible, and sometimes the Grand Cru really is the best wine. In this specific case I thought that other wines performed better. 😊
Once again a great presentation. I really like your enthusiasm. I fully agree that you have to know your producer. Even grapes from the same vintage & wineyard can turn out differently according to the producer.🍷
Definitely, You are absolutely correct. Producer makes a lot of difference! 🙌🙌🙌
I believe all those wines are worth their price. 🍷
Clive Coates was writing about his doubts of Echezeaux deserving GC status back even in the mid-2000s - suffice it to say, it is variable, even before factoring in more recent climate-related issues. One possible factor here is that sometimes GC wines can lose their complexity of fruit before the tertiary complexity comes through, resulting in a lack of 'dimension' and a disappointing experience - a case could be made here for leaving this Grivot wine in the cellar a while. Personally, I think all of these wines are babies, but of course tastes differ.
Increasing average temperatures do seem to be favouring Volnay, in particular, with - to my mind - bargains to be had at PC level, especially from previously so-so cuvees that are now becoming special (many critics are not noticing). A good example of value from the Beaune are the wines of Boris Champy, which are capable of challenging preconceptions about how good sub-village Burgundy can be.
2017 vintage by many wine critics and Burgundy experts have been described as vintage for early consumption. I am also very firm believer that wine still should show how good/great it is early in its life. There is no way wine is bad quality now, and becomes better with age, that simply doesn’t happen. Yes, it gains complexity with age, but it must have concentration of fruit, intensity of flavours, balance of acidity and alcohol already when young, if it doesn’t have it, there is no way it will live long enough to deliver that complexity. 😓😓😓 I simply think I had a bad bottle, that also might happen, who knows in which window it was held for a how long. 😪
@@NoSediment Well, of course, you tasted it and so are in the best position to evaluate it- I certainly was not disagreeing with you! While I would maintain that what I articulated may be a factor, you're absolutely right, of course, that without concentration, there is no 'substance' on which development might take place. You may well have had a bad bottle... with Grivot, despite the heady heights that may be reached by that domaine, a bad bottle is not as unlikely as it might be with some other producers, in my experience.
Ding ding ding!!! You scored A+, and you did it with panache and welcome honesty, as usual! Thanks!
Thank You, I am happy You enjoyed it! 🙏🏻
Absolutely FASCINATING ! Of all the wine regions of the world, I find Burgundy to have a very challenging price vs quality relationship. Having said that, I had the opportunity to spend a week sat Cote d'Or, Cote de Nuit, Code de Beaune etc.. and it is one of my most memorable and enjoyable visit. We even spent a whole afternoon at Domaine Meo Camuzet and had barrel tastings led by Jean Nicolas !!!
I don’t think it was always the case, but line of small and difficult vintages, increased interest of Burgundy wines has led to a significant price increase, unfortunately. ☹️☹️☹️
@@NoSediment So true... prices have spiralled out of control.... I am "afraid" to open my Dujac Bonne Mares, Clos de LaRoche's etc.. SIGH.....
I love your channel! Sadly, many of the wines you talk about aren's available where I live- Indiana, United States. I love your insights into wine, and your cool T-shirts! 🙂
I am very sorry to hear, I guess both Burgundy and those smaller producers are way much harder to source. 🥹😓
Congrats on 20k subscribers!!🍷
Thank You! Yes, I am very excited! 😁
One of your best episodes. I’m only starting my burgundy “wine journey” so this was a really interesting tasting. Good job!!
Wow, thank You for the compliment. 🙏🏻 it never too late to start! 🙌
absolutely right. we all think Grand Cru were assigned by wine quality but the reality is that, it was mostly based on how grapes could ripen. lets remember hardly anything reached proper ripeness in Burgundy in the past. also, every time I have tested Pommard in the line up, it wad always a highlight for me. excellent video as usual!
Unfortunately, a bunch of us visited Pommard and went into a winery to taste their line-up and found all the offerings substandard. We walked away thinking Pommard must be the worst part of the Burgundy. I guess I was misled and definitely need to give it another chance.
@@Birdylockso fascinating… depends on producers as well. mind you, my experience with Burgundy is minimal but village level Ponmards have always been good
@@Birdylocksogive Pommard a chance again. They’re usually a bit heavier. Perfect Burgundy for winter nights.
Pommard definitely is not the worst part of the Burgundy, but I think here (Burgundy), more than in any other region producer plays an important role. I have tasted wines 200+ Eur and they are disappointing, which is extra sad because of the price You pay. ☹️
That is a very good point, many winemaking regions now recognise that the BEST VINTAGES were those when grapes could reach full ripeness. Nowadays that is rarely a problem, especially in the classic winemaking areas - so now, quality is determined by different factors. ( in my personal view)
From Costa Rica great video. Thank you for your honesty.
Thank You! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 my aim is to be as honest as possible, but I also want to be respectful. 🥹
Great tasting and really interesting comparison....like many others I can remember the fairly recent times of being able to afford good village burgundy - the only producer I am regularly buying is Sylvain Pataille whose Marsannays are delicious and reasonably priced.....otherwise I am drinking more and more NZ pinot and German Pinot which seems to be on the up.
That is only natural, that with Burgundy prices increasing we are starting to look for other regions that offer better value. Certainly NZ and Germany are amongst those areas! 🙌
Interesting video and tasting. Before the effects of climate change were so prevalent I already thought that Burgundy was a region that was very intricate and complicated. I think that you have to spend an enormous amount of time & energy studying about the villages, lieu-dits, climats, premier & grand cru vineyards and then you still might get it wrong. 😅
For wine studies and education it is useful to taste from the Cote de Beaune & Cote de Nuits as a reference point and to train your palate, but for many of us triple digit price points are simply too expensive in many cases. Yes, when one gets the chance at a trade or fair event, or if you are part of a wine tasting club that's great.
However, in my opinion greater pleasure and consistency can be found from South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Argentina or maybe even Alto Adige or Piemonte when it comes to high quality Pinot Noir. Of course the Cote Chalonnaise is an exception to this, as you can find pretty great quality at more affordable prices. It was a fun video and I was impressed how you called the wines and picked out the Volnay 1er Cru. Cheers!
Thank you for another great video.
Thank You for tuning in and commenting! It is very important for me. 🙏🏻
Agnesa..You make watching videos of this content so enjoyable. I very rarely even drink village level Burgundy. It is still interesting to learn quality to price ratio of the 4 tiers... I do need to splurge and buy a bottle of Volnay premier cru..... I’ll check with a couple wine shops and purchase for a special occasion! Thanks as always! Sincerely TG
Volnay is definitely one of my favourite villages for red Burgundy, however wines are pretty expensive there as well. ☹️
I thought the last one would be Chambolle 😅. My go-to value Burgundy is in Cote Chalonnaise and Haute-Cotes de Nuits. Alternatively Spätburgunder or Portuguese Dão (not even pinot but you'll know what I mean when you taste it 😁)
I agree, the upper vineyards of Burgundy currently offer great value, but even now, You cannot find one below 20$ 😓
I never tasted a Burgundy Grand Cru sadly, many times "lesser ranked" wines are better than prestigious ones. Neverless some of the great makes unbeliveble and unmistakely superwines but as you said are just for the very few.
You are very passionate and a great storyteller, it's lovely to see and listen your clips; Cheers Agnes
I am afraid that I will be able to taste top Burgundy less and less. I constantly hear stories from the top industry people, that they have to rely on generosity of others to be able to taste some of the most exciting labels - it is truly sad to hear that. 😓
Such a fun channel to watch.
Thank You for the compliment.🙏🏻
Wow great presentation, love your engaging style as always. Very informative and also kinda sad. Burgundy Premier Cru is now so out of the range of not just the average wine aficionado but serious ones as well. I'm dating myself but 15 years or so ago I was buying both Crus and enjoying regularly. If I paid more than $120 a bottle for GC I was splurging. PC in $40-50 range. Now those same GC are over $400 bottle and the PC are $150 and up. It's not really that long ago. 😢. I do miss it a lot. I moved on to exploring Barolo which I think represents really good value for the intricacies of the wines.
On that note, I have been in love with Barolo and Barbaresco wines, and unfortunately they are heading towards the same price increase. So let’s enjoy them while we can. 😌🍷✨
I remember when I subbed this channel it only had 200-something members and now its inching closer to 20k. Burgundy being a single varietal wine its interest rests on the dramatic soil variety across that very thin strip...
You were one of the early believers. Thank You for being with me all this time! 🙏🏻
Agnese ❤🎉 🍷 you deserve all the different variations of DRC Pinot Noir in your collection. Oh yes you do 💋
DRC and LA TACHE MONOPOLES, RICHEBOURG, Grands-Echézeaux, Romanée-Saint-Vivant,
Echézeaux, and Corton. ❤❤
Well done, as usual! I think wine ratings can be similar where classic or historical producers get an extra point or two in ratings even if the wine doesn't necessarily deserve it (confirmation bias?). Nice video!
Probably true - if You are part of the trustworthy critics, You might not want to loose that spot and rate the wines higher than they actually would be. But I am only guessing, and I usually like to trust those that I read.
I love Burgundy and I’ve noticed that vintage really matters there. Even more than other regions, because for me Pinot Noir really suffers from too hot years where it looses much of the lovely acidity. Personally I like 2017 and 2019
Many value 2017 whites more than reds, and I feel that there might be some issues with a bottle. Of course wine needs to have some acidity, otherwise it looses the balance, all the great wines have! 💪
I have found the best way to buy burg these days is through auctions - buying PC wines with 8-12 years of bottle age and the premium is assessed from that years release price not todays price - I’ve gotten many bottles much cheaper (often half) than todays release prices and they are ready to go
That is a great way to shop. 🙌🙌
As you described wine 4 I was screaming volnay - you describe them exactly as I would have - volnay - my favorite village and half of my burgundy collection.
Hahah, that is cool to hear! Yes, those vineyards make such a beautiful wines. 🍷
Great video. It is hard to find great QPR in Burgundy. I tend to stay outside the known names, but my first grand cru was from Latour clos vougeot but have been lucky to have had a 2016 Faiveley chambolle musigny grand cru too…..from a very generous friend, extremely different wines, but massive price differences (10x) too. I just have such a hard time justifying Burgundy 1er or grand cru when there is so much fantastic Pinot Noir coming out of so many other countries.
I completely agree with You. They make beautiful wines, but that price rise means that it will only be reserved for the few per cent of the most wealthy people. ☹️
Another very interesting episode.
To be honest, I do not tend to buy Burgundy Grand Crus too frequently. The reason is not only the prices, but also the understanding of the simple fact that as an amateur, I might not be able to appreciate them properly. I tasted a few but couldn't succeed to distinguish between them and some of the Premier Crus from prestigious appelations. Maybe I am still not qualified enough, but I find Premier Crus from Vosne-Romanee or Chambolle-Musigny just as enjoyable as the Grand Crus I have tasted. In my opinion, simply fantastic wines!
At the same time, I DO believe : VALUE in Burgundy is still EXISTING. Especially if You go there...
Even today, there ARE Premier Crus from Volnay, Pommard, Beaune, Morey Saint Denis, Nuits Saint Georges from reputable producers, which cost under 80 Euro for a bottle.
P.S. Next time, be careful when You are jumping from the fence of Romanee Conti :)
It is absolutely normal to not be able to distinguish the quality between Premier and Grand Cru. There are mediocre GC and there are outstanding 1er Crus and the lines get blurred. It doesn’t seem to me that You are an amateur. 😌 However, I understand that price for some of the wines, not only GC has increased dramatically, and at some point it just makes sense to look for great Pinot Noir elsewhere. 🍷
I absolutely agree with Your point of view on the price tendencies in Burgundy (I know at least three specific wines, which more than doubled their prices since 2019). And of course, it always makes sense to try other options.
At the same time, it is still possible to find value there, so We should not give up 😀
You're Grand ❤ Cru Burgundy Agnese 💋 💋 💋 💋 I give you 99.5 points 🎉🎉
Domaine de montille pommard 1er les rugien bas 2011 was one of the better experience I had from this winery. It was amazing as it gains power after 12 hours ❤. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on burgundy.
I will have to open up that Pommard then! 🙌🙌🙌
@@NoSediment have fun 😄 cheers 🍷
Had same experience with another 1er cru from montille as well, first day underwhelming, day two it exploded, completely different wine 🍷 😊
Hey what are your thoughts on the 2019 Archenant Aurelien Verdet - Nuits Saint Georges?
Unfortunately I cannot answer, I haven’t tasted that wine. 🥲
Ciao, this topic is very interesting as today is really hard to find some good value for money Burgundy 😉
True! But I think there are still some (producers and appellations, and areas) parts to look for value in Burgundy. 😅
When I was kid, my dad could buy Chambolle-Musigny, Pommard, Gevrey-Chambertin and things like that, even though he was just a middle class guy in Switzerland. These wines were just a bit more expensive than our local Pinot Noir. This was kind of a regional market. Today, it's a global market while supply has not increased. People also don't realize that red Burgundy is a very small production area (10x less than red Bordeaux, which offers much better value for money - OK, I get it, Bordeaux is not Pinot Noir, but still...). I can't really blame the Bourguignons (people from Burgundy) from milking the cow, even though I think they are not the most honest winemakers. In Bordeaux, price is a much better indicator of value, because it's a much more transparent market (for historical reasons I won't go into). If you really like Pinot Noir, it's not really easy but New Zealand offers good value for money, and actually I am starting to warm up on Californians from the cooler areas such as Monterrey and Santa Barbara, which offer surprisingly good value. Oregon is good too, but has gotten quite pricey.
You know this idea of wines identified by region down to the village has got me thinking of searching out wines made and credited to a specific wine maker. It's a bit of a deep dive but I think it's interesting when you can find out the person with direct responsibility for the making of the wine somewhere in the published documentation. I wonder if some of them have a wine making style so distinct that it's recognizable if you know the industry well enough.
I am not sure I understand completely what You mean by that. 😓
@NoSediment Yeah, it's a weird idea. Every once in a while, I hear about a master who has worked in several places, leaving behind memorable wine they helped guide the making of. It would be interesting to see if there are some that are recognizable by their work.
Domaine joblot is quite good value in my opinion.
Thank You for adding it to the list! 🙏🏻🙌
Listening to your tasting notes, it doesn't sound like it's advisable or even necessary to further age premier/grand cru wines!?
Of course, the taste will change over decade(s) and this can be very exciting for an experienced wine enthusiast. But basically these wines are great after bottling.
Both of my GC and 1er Cru came from a vintage that according to winemakers would develop quickly - I think different vintages might show less development. 🍷
ES ļoti ilgojos pēc tevis. Mana sirds sāp Agnese 💔
None of the bottles in the bags where open, so they had not been used in the tasting. Why? Where are the bottles used?
Hahah, it is coravin that I use! Maybe You can see that they are not completely full in some lighter color bottles.. 🤔 I always try to use Coravin preservation system as these are expensive wines and I cannot finish them afterwards in one sitting. So these are the very same bottles I have been tasting.🥂🍾 Cheers!
Coravine recommend to remove the foil and thick wax. Expensive apparatus that break easily.
@andenils I have never removed the foil, I don’t see reason for that.
Your video on natural wine was fascinating. This video reminds me of the guy saying how old world wine laws should be gone.
Edit: I only know of the producer of the second wine, the rest I have never heard of. Burgundy is good.
Those all are smaller family owned estates that have very limited production, therefore I am guessing they are not as widely available as other producers would be. 🍷 De Montille currently has become very dear to me. 🙏🏻
🎉🎉🎉🎉 My Fave Sommelier 💓 in the whole wide world 🌐 Agnese❤❤❤❤❤
Good job but you should try using Burgundy glasses when trying Burgundy. Way better for Pinot than the Bordeaux glasses you’re using 👍🏼
Hahaha, in my exam and really in any blind tasting we are tasting all wines from the same glasses, so for the professionally it is best to have one glass. When it comes to enjoyment- we can choose whichever glasses we want, and they do not need to be grape specific. 💯
❤❤❤ Smukulītis Agnese🎉🎉🎉
grivot has a more backward style, give it 15-20 years. some '17 reds are a little shutdown, were better before say '21
According to winemakers themselves and wine critics, 2017 vintage reds will develop relatively quickly and 7 years is already some age, it shouldn’t be that awkward.
@@NoSediment not awkward but backward, stylistically. they were drinking well from release until maybe 2021/22 then i found some started shutting down 2023/24, if you are lucky, they will drink well again maybe 2030+. backward like say mugnier, d'angerville clos des ducs etc .... wines that are much better with a lot of time, even for 2017s
Great video, but at these prices, Burgundy is still for the wealthy, unfortunately. The average Europeans drink local wine with their meals, often at a couple of euros a bottle. What kind of wine do the Burgundian locals drink? Do they save money by drinking cheaper French or Spanish wine?
Good question, I think there are still value on Burgundy, it is only not the top ultra famous names that we read about and know so well. 😅
I’d love to know what producers from Burgundy are your favorites 😊
OMG save your money and buy New Zealand pinot noir, such better value and really exciting
Hahaha, they make some excellent Pinot Noir wines, that is true! 🍷
Climate change is a big factor. Here on Vancouver Island in Canada we can make a very nice pinot noir now, whereas two decades ago not a chance
Definitely. But I do think that our knowledge and “know how” has also developed. 🙏🏻
Soon they will be untouchable. 2017 was a meh vintage no?
It was not the greatest for the reds, but also not something that should be poured down the drain. ☹️
No it shouldn't - the 2017 whites were very good , can't find them anymore. I did like that the tasting was blind and that some of the "lesser" wines came in as 90+. My fear is the climate and the impact on the grapes in that region long term. Now we're seeing vintages from 2018-2022 that are very good to great. What's around the corner? Any suggestions on where to find wines similar to these beauties? I've tried California and it's really hit or miss and the good ones are getting out of sight price wise. I've tried some other new world wines as well - mostly S.America. @@NoSediment
That grand cru is probably too young. 7 years old is only a baby, that probably won’t get going till it’s 15 years old and will last for 30-40 years. It’s still daft money, who pays that for wine?
I really don’t think it is the case. 2017 was not the top vintage for red wines, and many critics noted that these wines will need to be drunk early in their life. Furthermore, great wine is great in its youth as well, if wine is lacking concentration or intensity it will not magically appear. 🤷♀️
I dislike Pinot Noir. You can drink my share.
I will try my best! 😉
I have to say that I just leave Burgundy alone. There's so much other good wine in the world that I just don't care. The prices of some of the wines are just ridiculous and the play thing of those that think an expensive watch expresses class. For the price that people pay for these wines I would expect equally excellent and far more available wine form any other part of the world.
I completely understand You. 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Breaking news. Burgundy is not only the golden slope. Go south.
Have You seen the premier cru prices of Pouilly Fuisse? I used to say the same thing, and now I am not so sure anymore. 😮💨😪
icing on the cake ... isn't like cream of the cream ...
Sorry? I might not understand..
@@NoSediment you said premier and grand crus are like icing on the cake when i guess you mean to say cream of the cream, icing on the cake doesn't mean that, it has a different meaning
@hatchegg80 no, no, I meant what I said
Only idiots pay more than 10€ for a bottle of wine
Disagree very much. Have You ever wondered how much is the bottle itself, label, and someone who designed that label? The capsule, the cork, the logistics, the taxes? The markup? After all that calculation one must wonder how much is the wine itself worth in that bottle. There are very few companies who can afford to offer good wines at that price, and those are not the small artisanal ones. There is nothing wrong to trade up!
Okay these blind tastings are decent but there is a big problem from the viewers perspective. I assume you know beforehand which wines were bought for the blind tasting yet you do not present this information to the viewers before the tasting starts. The viewers also dont know if you have tried these wines before which I assume is also the case. The result is that we cannot sympathize with your deduction process at all because you yourself have much more information than the viewer until the reveal stage, this makes the video less entertaining to watch. There is no anticipation, excitement and pay-off.
I and I think many others would enjoy much more if you put the viewers on equal footing with yourself at the start of the video, i.e. this is the experiment, these are the wines involved and how one would expect them to be different. Then camera man mixes them up and you start tasting, we try to think along with you based on the tasting descriptions and provided information from before what the wine may be. It really adds a lot more interaction to the video for a viewer as he gets to play the game with you.
The best would be if the viewer knew even more than you did about the wines, i.e. you having no clue what it could even be or what the experiment even is while the wine itself and the theme is visible to the viewer through editing. This is what the Greeks would call 'dramatic irony' and is one of the corner stones of theater writing in general because its so entertaining. Winekings did this with Peter Koff not knowing anything and Jay buying the wines and organizing the themes/experiments. Peter would even have to guess what the experiment was sometimes! They are the most popular wine related content creators by far, in part because of the format(obviously also a massive South Korean following and high production quality).
It seems to me that You assume a lot and then criticise and then expect everyone be the dramatic filmmaker. I say that I have selected wines myself, and I never do this for the drama - for that You we have Netflix. 😉 Also haven’t tasted some of the wines, and certainly not beforehand to talk about them.
@@NoSediment Hahaha no I don't expect anything, I would just enjoy the video a bit more. I feel like I came across as more critical than I am.
What I meant to say is that some small changes in structure would make the video a lot more fun to watch for me personally, like from a 7 to a 9. I say this because the quality is all already there, excellent camera work, editing, setup, presentation and knowledge are all present and with a small change in only the format I think they would be some of the best on RUclips.
I meant this as nothing other than constructive criticism but I see now that it came across as incredibly pretentious due to the way I wrote it. I apologize and hope you at least understand what I meant to say initially so I don't seem like a jerk.