@@GreenEyedDazzler also, that could be seen as a sign that Darko really wasn't to blame for the change in Niko's life. Niko did that to himself by refusing to let go of the past. The main culprit all along was Niko himself
It also helps that they are both Serbian and both (I think is implied?) from the same village as Niko. So they probably indeed are like distant cousins, as most people in small villages in Eastern Europe are.
One thing many people did not realise in GTA 4 s driving and ragdoll. Niko only ragdolled through the windshield of the car in a crash WHEN YOU DID NOT LET HIM FASTEN THE SEATBELTS !! .when you step into a car and immediately drove off, he does not fasten his seatbelt, but when you wait for just 2 seconds an animation will play and he will no longer ragdoll in case of a crash. The same goes for when he ride a bike. Wait a decond and he will put on a helmet
I didn't even know that! I always thought it was by random chance that Niko, Johnny, or Luis would fly out the windshield and I would lol everytime it happened. Neat attention to detail that I didn't even notice!
Yeah see i also still playing them luis and niko put in helmets but johnny does not even if you wait or who knows gonna test it but i think johnny doesn’t put on a helmet but love the weapons on the dlc
The reason why I will always choose the Revenge ending is not because of the context of the character, but more based on the tone of the game. I feel Niko was done with his own personal revenge story, but him going after Dimitri is not revenge motivated, but it’s due to the fact that Niko thought he figured out how crime in Liberty City operates and Niko knew how Dimitri can tell you an sob story one day and stab you in the back the next day. Even Faustin tells you how Dimitri is before you execute him. And since you said Kate is the heart of the game, then (IMO) it makes sense story-wise to take revenge because Niko is now more wiser than he was since he arrived in Liberty City and Kate seems like the next step to start a new violent less life until consequences reared its ugly head which fits the morally gray setting of GTA IV.
Exactly, doing the "last job" for Jimmy P while having deal with your arch nemesis, who is a psychopath that stops at nothing to eliminate you, just makes no sense for Niko. The whole "Deal" mission with Phill feels awkward and out of place, as if it was just an obligatory option while the creators put all the effort into "Revenge" mission.
and to make things even better, R* had the first mission in Revenge path tampered with an anti-piracy measure, where after you finished off Dimitri inside the ship, good luck getting outside as the missions objective marker won't show up on the first ladder
Exactly, it wasn't revenge but it was tying up a loose end. Niko isn't stupid, Dimitri would try to harm him or his loved ones if he let his guard down or even try to befriend some other poor sucker and put him through what he put Niko through down the line. I do think the deal ending has a more personal thing going for it with him being the final bad guy also the weather suits the mission better, but i overall prefer the revenge ending.
Damn, i never thought of kate like the 'next step' towards normalcy and happiness for niko. Thats fuckin tragic...dude really doesnt have a 'better' option in either ending then.
I think a better ending would've been Niko walking away from Pegorino's deal since he was done with the life of crime after the Darko story concludes (regardless of decision), then have the assassin be sent by both, only to then be turned into the motivation to have Niko come back to kill them over that and he ends up killing both during a meeting - first Pegorino then Dimitry.
It's always annoying when people say there's a writing flaw, and it's just that the main character didn't do the 100% best options every single time as if they aren't swayed by their own personal agendas, ambitions, or acting under the heat of the moment.
My one thing with the final decision in GTA IV is that there's NO reason for Niko to want to work with Dimitri again, Raskalov has been nothing but a snake that did everything he could to manipulate Niko to kill Mikahil and become boss of the russians only to then sell Niko to Bulgarin, sure Niko taking revenge on Dimitri after the Darko situation doesn't fully make sense as even if you kill or let Darko leave Niko feels empty, so chasing another revenge wouldn't make sense, but I don't believe Niko would wortk with Dimitri after everything that happen between them
Niko had been pursuing Darko for many years already, possibly believing he'd get some proper closure and a climactic confrontation with someone he once considered close. Instead he got a shell of a man, who massacred his group just for his next drug hit. Niko feels empty if he kills Darko and slightly positive if he spares him, since he knows he wouldn't bring back the people he lost, nor rescue himself from his trauma. Dmitri, on the other hand, is a very real and very active threat to both him and his peers. For the entirety of the game Dmitri harasses Niko, threatens his friends and even kidnaps Roman. Honestly, Niko doesn't so much get revenge on Dmitri as he stops him from endangering his loved ones any further. Niko has less of a connection to Dmitri than to Darko, so the revenge is purely pragmatic, rather than driven by years of internal turmoil and a sense of honor.
@ATomatoIsAFruit But there still wasnt any reason for him to work for dimitri. Honestly the ending is rushed, it comes out of nowehere any proper build up. Its like GTA san andreas, both long game with rushed endings
I would have to disagree on Niko choosing to work a deal with Dimitri Rascalov over taken revenge on him. The difference between him and Darko is that Darko really doesn't pose a threat to Niko or anybody he knows. Darko is a junkie and possibly has lived a horrible life after the war and makes sense for Niko to let him live and suffer with his life choices. Then with Dimitri he has been a threat to Niko for a while in the game and he is also a snake so I don't think Niko would feel like getting burnt by him again even for the money(plus through to game Niko acquires a bunch of money and property so I dont think he would really be down bad to take the deal). If there was a walk away option it could be a 50/50 chance of Niko not having to deal with Dimitri ever again, but it doesn't guarantee Dimitri wouldn't come after him again. So I think it is justified for Niko to get revenge on him in the story context, but that just my way of seeing it. Overall good video!
Yes. Revenge always gets a bad rep. But if you think about it from a evolutionary perspective, you realize it's more so 'eliminating a potential future threat.' Meaning, you already know this person harmed you, and you know he will continue to do so unless you take serious action.
@@Xenozillex i always prefer the stories that say "how far would you go for revenge?" instead of just the trite, black-and-white "revenge bad" that is also why the "revenge bad" message of "no more heroes 2" falls flat. jasper batt jr is a serious threat, not just to travis, but to the entire city, so it makes perfect sense to go after him. he has hurt you before, and is entirely capable and willing to do so again. why would you not want him out of the way? ah, yes, because the writer wanted a message of "revenge is unsatisfying"
@Xenozillex I don't think it's so much revenge that gets a bad rep because I honestly do think it makes more sense for Niko to kill Dimitri rather than trust him again. Plus at least 95 % of players take revenge. I think it's more a case of Pegorino feeling like an underwhelming final boss because he only comes into the game later on, as opposed to Dimitri who puts Niko through so much and is a constant thorn in his side for most of the story. The only justification for taking deal is that Dimitri makes more sense as a final boss, but even then you are having Roman killed and sparing Kate who leaves you anyway. It's not worth it. And honestly A Revenger's Tragedy isn't as satisfying as A Dish Served Cold. The assassination was a much cooler way to take him out as opposed to just watching him die as Niko insults him. Plus you may have noticed if you take the deal ending, the Statue Of Happiness has it's back to you after the final mission. That's not the case if you take revenge. Morally it's the best ending, and in general.
I think Ray, being the Antagonist of The Lost And The Damned would've been better as Niko killing Ray pachino. Had no weight behind it. At least Johnny had a better excuse for killing him. Maybe they could've made you kill Billy in prison and then go and kill Ray after.
I think a better alternative to all yours guys suggestions is to have The Ballad be its own full game and have set in Vice City. Then in GTA 4 you can have Dimitri and Bulgarin be the main antagonist for Niko. And Pegorino and Ray for Johnny. You could also have more mission for The Lost to flesh everything out instead of skipping over the Civil war and the war with the mob.
I think he does, doesn't Lester in GTA5 mention that Niko went quiet? And he is not dead, neither is Roman, since both appear on Life invader profiles in 2013 wishing someone a good birthday or something.
I feel like the revenge ending makes more sense nico killing dimitri is a sort of closure for him trying to end his live of crime and then kate dying is a symbol for him not being allowed to.
I actually both agree and disagree Where i disagree in that the moral of the final choice is “revenge is good”, i dont think the game in either option really is making a comment about if revenge is always good or always bad, rather exploring the idea of revenge and how Niko and others react to it I also dont think killing Dimitri is merely “Revenge”, i believe it being called the Revenge Ending is the game framing it so you might be caught out and pick deal instead. I’ve heard people call it the “Insurance” ending instead. Keep in mind the three missions where Dimitri really tries to fuck with you - Hostile Negotiation, Diamonds, the Bryce Dawkins blackmail arc - can actually all be done near the end of the game. Dimitri is a looming threat and actively acts like a slimeball while trying to sell you on working with him. You KNOW he will betray you I also dont think Pegorino or Dimitri is really all that powerful, the Heroin deal kept them afloat but it involved Dimitri pissing off a potential business partner by betraying them like he always does And i think that Niko in the revenge ending kind of is aware he’s essentially rebroken himself by going after Jimmy, he congratulates Roman on having a kid but seems distant from his family now. There’s a silver lining in the Deal ending where Mallorie tells Niko she’s pregnant and he offers to father the kid since Roman’s dead. Again that doesnt really help all that much because the Deal ending is way sadder, but there is at least some tit for tat in that respect. Do you want Niko to have his family who will always help but be slowly growing distant and self destructive again or lose his family but be forced to perhaps regain that lost hope by becoming a father? I think that there are problems with these endings tho that you touch on. I dont think theyre that well written and I get what theyre going for but the roles seem wrong. I think that Pegorino’s death is satisfying because Niko essentially gets to cut into how much of a failure the Alderney mob is and i love the Platypus mission involving Dimitri but I just massively prefer Dimitri being the final boss and it never lined up to me that Niko would just leave Jimmy P be so i’ve never felt the endings have lined up well. Kate was actually meant to be at the wedding in Deal but was cut out supposedly to make the endings have more contrast. She actually has animations in the cutscene they just hid her under the map I think you touch on what i kinda wanted: i kinda like the idea of Niko just saying “im out” and then having a third ending that maybe combines killing both Kate and Roman with killing Dimitri at the end. Like then it’s almost an inverse of V: picking C is the nightmare scenario I also think there’s other problems with how IV’s story goes, mostly that i feel there’s a lot of third act filler which in terms of dev time couldve been cut in favor of making the DLCs a little longer. I also think they introduce Jimmy too late and the ordering of some of the arcs leads to certain plots feeling like they dont make sense, which to me factors into the revenge plot by making it not as affective: for example, I think the fact you can do Gravelli’s missions before all of Peg and Bell’s means that Niko already knows Darko is coming and he has less of a reason to further ingrain himself with the Alderney mob that leads to this ending choice Overall looking forward to more GTAIV stuff ive been playing it too, got 100 percent on it and all the DLCs. If youre doing a mission rank thatll be interesting, i love IV but the missions are probably the weakest aspect because they kind of fall into the “drive here kill guys drive back” cliche too much. But then you compare that to the DLCs which have consistently excellent mission design. I hope you discuss TLAD and TBOGT sometimes, idk if youll bake it in with your ranking
Yeah, Niko can finish all of the Gravelli missions before the Bernie missions too so he knows darko is coming to Liberty City yet Niko will still ask Bernie if Bryce had gotten any info on Darko even though at that point he knows that the search for him is basically over. IV is interesting in its missions selection because there are missions you can save for way later in the story than you usually see people playing the game do. Like you can have undertaker be the mission right before that special someone when (at least in the GTA Series video channels playthrough of gta IV) Undertaker is in the middle of the game.
Pegorino should’ve been swapped with Bulgarin. He’s literally the other major loose end from Nikos past. Either choice, Nikos 3 burdens get dealt with, just at the cost of a loved one. Luis or Johnny can then take care of Pegorino.
This is what I suggested as well, have Bulgarin be the second antagonist, I know it ruins TBOGT but as said in my old comment you can make that its own game so you can cut it out of the story so just leaving GTA and LOTD. For lost you can have The Pegorinos be their antagonist alongside Billy.
Hmm, I think the two endings are both crucial to the nuances of revenge in GTA IV. The Deal ending is a showcase of a greater point. I don't think they wanted a balanced pair of endings. Deal is meant to be awful, because it's saying somethin'. Getting revenge on Darko was always a somewhat pointless goal. Revenge on a man who hasn't been in Niko's life for years, isn't a threat to him and who isn't even on the same continent. Niko knows, on some level, that seeking revenge against Darko was pointless. Just an excuse like so many others he has to indulge in his violent side. The others being 'because I'm good at it', 'because I need the money' and 'because I can't do anything else' (the last one, of course, not being true, Niko could've stopped at several points). But getting 'revenge' on Dimitri? It's the sensible action because he's an active, open and hostile snake. Niko knows he's a treacherous snake. Kate leaving Niko is another twist of the knife, but I can understand her reasoning. Niko chose money over principles, lost everything and it's highly unlikely he's gonna be doing anything but spiraling from then on. The message isn't 'seeking revenge is bad', rather I think its 'Seeking revenge on someone you know isn't a threat is pointless. Seeking revenge against a person who is an active threat is sensible.' In fact, I think that's also part of why Niko goes after Jimmy in the 'Revenge' ending. Like you said, James Pegorino has nothing left. Nothing else to dedicate his life to other than revenge on Niko. Kate's death was Jimmy seeking to kill Niko in revenge for ruining him. He wasn't gonna stop there, an army of two-bit hoods or not, Pegorino is a bitter man who has no other dreams left. He's the kind of man Niko was with Darko. Another drive-by, burning down wherever Roman's new Cab Deport is, finding one of Niko's places and waiting for him. Going after his friends. Jimmy is in no position to care what he does as long as he gets to Niko. The lack of a third option is also part of the tragedy. Niko could've walked away at several points. After Hove Beach, if he wasn't so blatantly looking for that Special Someone through every channel he could find he'd have ended up neither The ULP Contact or the Pegorino Families contractor. The former cuts ties after Darko because there's nothing left he can hold over him, but Niko involving himself with the latter on his revenge is why there's no easy 'out'. He put himself in a position where Jimmy thinks Niko owes him. Tha''s jus' 'ow I sees it, any'ow. It's a complicated game. A million ways to see it. Also, good choice wi' playin' Short Change throughout. One of the finest GTA Themes, in my opinion.
Honestly I don't think revenge is ultimate main plot point. It is a major theme for Niko, but his life isn't just that. Other people, family, friends, acquaintances, enemies - that's his life, his weird and amazing living in Liberty City, which is also one of the most important characters. The beginning of this game, first act up to Bohan plotline is near perfect, unfortunately it gets a bit too distracted and bloated close to the middle, a lot of characters and not a lot of attention to Niko. I think it still ends on a strong note, especially with Revenge choice. I disagree that Deal makes more sense for Niko. He is aware and reasonable enough not to deal with a person that actively wants him dead the most in this city, and knowing that Dimitri will never stop trying to hurt him and his family, it only makes sense to get rid of this loose end. It's not even that much personal as it was with Darko. As for Jimmy P being the "end boss" - well, if we take more realistic approach of this games, it makes sense. The "end boss" doesn't have to be the cathartic experience, it might as well be just some pissed wannabe mafia boss that went off the rails. Sure it's a bit unsatisfying, but with two satisfying resolutions happening earlier, it's ok, and Kate's demise just drives home the point that even after all is done, Niko's past catching up to him anyways. What is actually pretty unsatisfying is the final mission, since it's just a lot of driving and shooting and stunt driving and QTE that is often bugged and flying the helicopter and it goes on forever and so easy to fail. This is one thing about the ending that I would change.
I kind of like that Pegorino is the final boss of the game. It's kind of hilarious because Niko never took him seriously and yet, Pegorino was the one that ruined Niko's chance at a happy ending, all because he was an unstable raging egomaniac. He couldn't even hit the right fucking target. Even a fat fucking joke like Pegorino could be the tool his past needed to catch up with him.
There's so little in gaming that compares to playing this game on launch, it was an unbeliavable feat. I was 12yo at the time and I already knew it was a game for the ages. I think every love letter video appearing in the last years about this game is justified. Yes this game have 1000000000000 flaws in the story, gameplay, graphics, rockstar games, games for windows live, game running at 20fps at launch, but I don't know man, it's just a insanely great game. I remember letting my computer on for a week to download a pirated rip version of the game at 30kbps, later I bought the game with the coolest box ever with the map and poster. Idk man, this game has an aura and everyone that says anything bad about it can come here and we'll kiss in the mouth gently and set our differences.
Mane i been playing this and loving it compared to gta v online on ps3 of course so still looks as good as when i was a kid gta v feels like a part time job and too easy gta 4 is great with the whole story and all the dlcs great too
I respect your opinion on the Deal ending, but Revenge is ultimately the better option for the story not just for a less sad ending but for Niko's character as well. The difference between Dmitri and Darko is that the former is an active and capable threat who has betrayed and put us through the wringer several time throughout the playthrough whereas with Darko he's a former husk of himself, a junkie who looks near-dead. I still killed Darko during my playthrough's because who knows what can happen in years' time, he just got dropped in Liberty City and is likely still wandering the place if he hadn't succumbed to his evident disease, put him out of his misery and be safe. Niko after that learns that revenge won't fulfill or erase his past trauma but that doesn't mean he should let a snake like Dmitri be. Liberty City has taught the player that it is eat or get ate and choosing the Deal ending because it coincides with Niko's character arc is fundamentally naive and doesn't grasp the full frame of the story and Niko as a character.
I always loved the detail that they chose to make "Darko" look like "Niko" if Niko made the worst decisions he could have in life and more. It seems very intentional the similarity in appearance that the developers went with.
I always pick to kill Darko, I mean, that was the whole point of going to Liberty City. The fact that it all feels so unsatisfying is just really fitting... which then leads to Niko accepting the deal, just to finally get out of the life, and do well for his family... only to have one last tragedy strike (as you technically loose both Roman and Kate). I am not a master storyteller, but it just kind of made sense to me this way.
Not about the story but if you hate IV driving it's your own fault. Using breaks to corner properly isn't a hard concept. It's literally the first hint of the first mission But people are stupid and think it's bad cause you can't hold X and just e break around every corner like other GTA games.
Thank you! The amount of people who moan about the IV driving is ridiculous. Yeah it might not be as fun as the 3D era, but it's easier, yet people make out it's harder. Yet won't even consider that it's a skill issue.
@channel45853 how is he being a typical fanboy? For pointing out the truth? Obviously triggered a nerve. Not his fault you were shit at driving on it.
I'd say, the best compromise ending would be Niko killing Dmitri, and then telling Pegorino to take the drug while it's still on Platypus. Also, I'd argue that killing Dmitri doesn't necessarily undermine Niko's character arc. Keep in mind that Dmitri still poses a present danger, so Niko killing him is just one way to tie up loose ends.
I agree with everything you said in the video, the ending choice always left a sour taste in my mouth. As you said in the video, the player should’ve been given three choices. Revenge, Deal, and Nothing. “Nothing” leads to Phil Bell dying at the deal and Dimitri becoming a rich man, fleeing the country. Niko keeps Kate and Roman, but feels guilty since the money would’ve helped him tremendously. “Deal” would work the same, but Kate attending the wedding would be up to player’s choice. If your relationship (or “fondness” I think it’s called in-game) is high enough with her, she’ll forgive you for breaking the deal and die at the wedding. If your relationship is low with her, she says she needs space and returns after the story is complete. Basically, if Kate is at the wedding, she dies and Roman lives. If she isn’t, Roman dies and she lives. The Revenge ending leads to both Roman and Kate dying at the Wedding, solidifying the themes of revenge. I’d also add more things to spend money on, like safehouses and cars, to give the player more incentive to take the deal.
I feel like in the “Nothing” ending something bad should still happen to Niko, because I believe Dimitri and Peg weren’t gonna let him go after him not helping. Maybe you came have someone other than Kate or Roman die. One person I was thinking was Mallorie, have her get killed at the wedding. Leaving Roman a depressed reck and blaming Niko once again letting something bad happened even when having the choice to change it. So Niko can get revenge on both Peg then Dimitri. But it doesn’t change his relationship with Roman he won’t forgive Niko after letting her die on his wedding day, so they part ways after the story. Leaving Niko alone but Roman and Kate live.
It is precisely the fact that the Revenge ending is anticlimactic that makes it great. It's a message. Killing Darko, Dimitri, Pegorino and fucking Bulgarin if Luis Lopez didn't take care of that couldn't and wouldn't ever fill that void inside of Niko
Everything great about GTA IV's story nosedives in the middle of the game. Niko becomes the loyal mook for whatever generic italian boss he works. The cutscenes are less nuanced, the missions are boring. They also sorta forgot about Ray Bulgarin being a dangerous villain with a huge presence in Niko's story.
Also yeah I believe Bulgarin was forgotten about due to TBOGT having him as their antagonist too. So the writers might of trap themselves in the corner when having him be their as well, I think one simple fix to that is have TBOGT be its own full game, then you can have Bulgarian appear instead of The Peg.
I guess the overall theme of IV is it’s hard to escape your past, Niko tried to escape his criminal life but got sucked right back into it. No matter what you do your past comes back to haunt you, that we are the choices we make and we have to live with the consequences. Hence the two endings. No matter what choice we make there is a consequence and that is losing a person we care about. Niko harkens this point when he says to Dimitri in the revenge ending “Actions have consequences” before he kills him. Foreshadowing Nikos actions having consequence by the death of Kate.
Darko also justifies his betrayal by saying the war also deprived him of his own friends, so all of this in that scene recontextualizes it even more in the contradiction of Niko's hunting revenge obsession
I respect your point of view on Deal, it does makes sense with Dimitri as the last boss for him being the main antagonist. I however think what Rockstar was throwing an unexpected curve ball at us all. Niko's personal revenge story arc has been completed, and it was how Niko would move forward, and so they offer us two choices. Betray Niko's principles (some criminals have those), and basically put Niko's sets of Principles, and the constant attempts on his life, burning down Roman's Home, Kidnapping Roman, selling him out to Ray Bulgarin, after having Foustin Killed, etc aside for a price. Or stay true to Niko's Principles, and eliminate an ongoing threat like Dimitri. That would be better for Niko and all of the people he loves and cares about involved. The Darko situation, is extremely different from Dimitri's, and I don't think anyone would put all of what Dimitri has done aside to do business with him again. Darko sold out his entire squad for money so he could get a fix, and it was eating at Niko for years. Regardless of the choice, Keeping him alive or killing him, won't suddenly take back that pain Niko has lived with the trauma he has faced. Dimitri is a Threat, not a vendetta. I don't think Niko would put aside history with Dimitri, putting people he cares about at risk, knowing from history it will only come back and bite him in the ass, and taking a chance on a risk like Dimitri, wouldn't make him better than Darko.
If you pay attention to Kate and her possible dialogue throughout the game, she's actually shown to be very judgmental towards Niko's way of living to the point where her suddenly abandoning you isn't all that shocking and confusing to grasp as to why she would do him like that. She's also not that innocent either, she's not that different from her brothers, she just doesn't get her hands dirty like them
If anything, Kate is realistic. How would you be like if you had a family of gangsters and your potential partner was associated with them and has gone through and done far worse than your own siblings?
@@SecretMagician the problem with Kate is she didn't fully possess that awareness. She would openly joke with her brothers about the horrible crimes they were about to commit instead of just distancing herself from the conversation and always letting them know that she doesn't like what they do. Kate was the baby sister and viewed as such so she would've been able to always fully express herself to her brothers about her disapproval of their deeds, but instead she's saying jokes about their crimes that they're announcing is about to happen to make them laugh and almost validate that what they're doing is while obviously illegal, not something they should feel about. Talking about, "they're about to have fun" while having a legitimate amused smile on her face but then still trying to hold this holier than thou mindset shows the hypocrisy side to her.
The topic of characters making mistakes or picking bad choices without being considered bad writing is a very interesting one, personally I think you could do a video about it explaining some good examples. For me I think a good example would be Vegeta in Dragon Ball when he allows Babidi to control his mind because he wanted to finally setting up his score with Goku only to realise it was a foolish mistake because he's not the same person as before and the price he took ain't worth it, the Buu arc was a mix bag but they gave us Vegeta's redemption and I'm not saying the blowing himself up part but actually when recognises he's bad choices and admitting Goku was better than him finally letting his rage against him go away.
basically, making bad choices is okay as long as it aligns with the character and serves a point in the story. a character established as reckless doing something reckless is understandable. a character established as patient and calculating doing something reckless risks being bad writing, but can be salvaged by external circumstances making it understandable (for example, the patient character getting pushed to their breaking point, or placed in a situation where there is no time to think things through and the reckless option is the only one you can reasonably take)
What also helped me choose to spare Darko was Roman trying to make Niko change his mind, pointing out it doesn't look like Darko enjoys living that much. After that, with the whole Deal/Revenge situation, Roman suggested Niko to not take revenge on Dimitri, to move on and possibly live in Vice City after all is done. It makes sense for him to choose to make the deal if you take into account how tired he is of killing, especially with Roman's incentive, who always tried to make him see the good in him. Alas, he can't escape from the past so easily, and loses Roman in his attempt to change. It may be sad as shit, but it makes for an appropriate ending, with Niko being forced to kill Dimitri after losing the only family he had in Liberty City. He even sounds more at peace in the Deal ending, compared to how batshit insane he is in the Revenge one. Even suffering a greater loss, Niko presents himself as the bigger person when killing Dimitri, instead of being sadistic with Pegorino, laughing at his face as he makes fun of him. Compared to that, Deal Niko seems to be in the process of becoming a better person, willing to find something other than killing to be good at. I'd be perfectly okay with this ending if it wasn't for Kate berating Niko, seems like the devs really thought people would choose the Deal because of money, like there's even a place to spend it all on, lol.
The potential 3rd option, “just walk away”, would see Niko taking Kate to Roman’s wedding, and being shot on the drive by Dimitri’s men. The final mission could be done by Roman with a bunch of help from Jacob and Dwayne (if you kept him alive)
Yeah I guess I have never thought about the deal vs revenge ending like that. I had always assumed Niko would’ve done the revenge option, especially considering it’s technically the canon option, but now I can also concede that the deal ending is also plausible, if not more.
The choices were a great addition for the game since it allows you to decide who Niko could become. He is his own character, but the game let's you choose to play him as a heartless criminal, or a man who despite being sucked into the world of crime doesn't want that to ruin him and is trying to be a decent man. I highly recommend listening to all the date dialogue with Kate, since she sees that Niko is capable of being one, also it gives insight on some heavy stuff about Niko, Kate and even Roman had to deal with growing up. I guess you could think of it as a early concept of the honor system from the RDR games. I absolutely agree with your take on the Darko choice, in fact there's a really cool detail if you get your revenge on him, Niko calls Burnie and he'll refer to him as Florian, while if you spare him he'll call him Burnie Symbolizing Niko is truly ready to move on or not. I agree with your take on the ending, It's the most poorly written part of the game. it could work, But it wasn't done right. Another theme of the game is how greed takes over everyone, you can see it with the bosses you work for how they think they're all big shots. Vlad, Playboy X, Elizabeta, Pegorino etc. I really like the line that Faustin say's before you kill him "American greed takes everyone, it is like a disease. Only i am still sane" Maybe not that last part but it is true. if you pick deal That could be Niko being corrupted by it, Roman and Kate's conversation is like a contrast. How roman is being greedy and wants Niko to take the money while Kate see's it as Niko betraying his morals for money, being exactly like her family. but Niko doesn't outright tell her about his history with Dimitri and what the alternative is. Originally Kate was in the deal ending, in fact she is she's just underground if you use free cam, but they just cut her. Ultimately Dimitri just works way better as the final bad guy rather then Pegorino who only showed up 15 missions before or less depending what order you do the missions. 5 had the same problem how you think the main antagonist is Steve Haines and then it's Devin Weston who i just found goofy, kind of reminds me of Jerry Martinez from VCS how he's too over the top to take seriously.
Thankfully there is a canon ending tho where he refuses to work with Dimitri again and Roman lives, also Niko does retire and lay low after that, Lester in GTA5 mentions that Niko went quiet, and he is not dead, neither is Roman, since both appear on Life invader profiles in 2013 wishing someone a good birthday or something, thus confirming that Niko not working with Dimitri is canon and that he did retire from crime.
Thats why the 7th gem roclstar sandboxes are my favorites naratively. Its not just about growth but also about recognizing character. Demitri is like the Frog and the scorpion fable. Its in Dimitri nature to be a scoundrel but Nikko? Hard to say. But I agree switching who dies would have been good and walk away would be good if it ends in his own death and a scene were everyone else lives. I dunno maybe you get to play as Packie and get nikos properties and money for reasons. I do kinda respect the that no matter what your ending you get that "empty" feeling nikko was trying to escape.
I just think Deal feels more impactful because of Roman’s death (who was the one person that Niko cared for the most) over Kate (who just felt like a love interest put in at the last minute). Plus throughout the story, Roman starts feeling more and more like he will probably die because of Dimitri’s obsession with getting under Niko’s skin (the mission where you save Roman from being kidnapped by Dimitri’s men alludes to this)
As far as I recall, Kate didn't really know Roman or Malorie, so outside of being Niko's +1, I don't see why she would be there otherwise, other than maybe to be polite, since she presumably RSVP'd.
A lot of people chooses the revenge ending because it has more satisfying closure to the game and at least niko have Roman a part of his family who's still support him and have his back despite how niko brought a lot of misfortunes to his life unlike the deal ending where niko basically loses everything, there's even a hint that revenge could be the Canon ending because of the few Easter eggs in gta 5 that points out that niko is still alive but he's out of the criminal life even if the revenge ending might not make a lot of sense to his character after he spears darko as you mentioned in the video and I kinda agree.
1:41 yeah, in the game they say niko and roman are Serbian, with the game taking place in 2008, ten years prior would be 98, Yugoslavia would still exist, I also believe they say roman has been in america for 10 years
I think there is a distinction to be made between Darko and Dimitri when looking at it through the scope of revenge. With Darko, he is weak, unstable, powerless and not a threat to Niko or Roman. Niko sees this and makes the decision to spare him which makes sense narratively as you stated. However, I do think there is a difference with Dimitri. Dimitri is still a threat to Niko and Roman, he still is very powerful, influential and dangerous. So I do think it makes sense that Niko would want to spare Darko and still kill Dimitri so that he and Roman can finally go about their lives without feeling like they constantly need to be looking over their shoulders. I think it is reasonable to presume that Niko knows that working with Dimitri will not bring the peace he is looking for because betrayal is all but guaranteed. Regardless of our difference of interpretation of the story, outstanding video sir.
Point is, Dimitri is also a psychopath that will always try to come after Niko, even if Niko won't be coming for him. Niko must be realizing it well at the end of the game. It's not even that much personal (much less than with Darko), it's just the matter of loose ends and family's safety.
What gets me about GTA IV is that it went from underrated to overrated overnight. People nowadays appreciate this game over the limits when it really doesn't deserve, which is just the polar opposite of how much hate this game got on release.
I was a rare case where I didn’t like GTA IV because it was overrated, I got tired of GTA IV because I’ve done all I can do in GTA IV (including the expansions) and I just want to move on to the next GTA. For Example: I got hyped for Fallout 4 when it was announced, not because I didn’t like Fallout New Vegas anymore, it because I can enjoy a new change of scenery in the Fallout setting.
I've noticed this happens a lot with media from the 2000s. For example, people overpraising the Star Wars prequels or the Sam Raimi Spider-man trilogy. I guess it's the nostalgia talking. GTA 4 is a great game, for sure, but it's really not the second coming of Christ
Am I the only one thinks gta iv is the most like a Quentin Tarantino movie? Such as dialogue the comedy and the show don't tell aspect the bank robbery scene is the perfect example it feels like a scene in reservoir dogs
The plot would've made more sense if we've got to meet Darko after the death of both Rascalov and Pegorino. No matter what we have chosen, it would've closed Niko's arc perfectly.
Yeah thay moment when he yells "HOW MUCH" to rationalise what caused his friends deaths is also motivated by the amount of money he's been paid to assassinate people So when he responds blankly How much do you charge to kill someone Hitsss soooo hard Also now thay you've actually played tlou2 and gta 4 wouldn't mind a nuanced comparison on hwo they approach the topic in both games
The closest thing to a hero in GTA is Niko. Through excellent writing and a reasonable backstory, they made a GTA protagonist not a complete psychopath.
The game gives you the option to spare a handful of characters that didn't amount to anything. I think that the game should've rewarded you for sparing those characters
Because when you really think about it Rockstar Games don't give you a moral choice on saving the life of Kate or Roman Bellic one has to die which will leave you conflicted because you don't have any issue with neither of these two side characters like this is the type of thing that will make Bruce Wayne Batman have a mental breakdown.
Makes tbe scene at the end of the ballad of gay tony. More darker then it looks. Yeah Niko does yell yellow cars but the guy is drinking himself to be drunk to cope with his loss of Roman with Kate or just Kate.
I can't agree that the final choice is poorly written. In fact I think they do really well leveraging the fact that if you spare Darko, then working with Dimitri will fuck you over. First time I played I probably sat and thought about my decision for 10 minutes, with Roman sending me texts saying to do the deal and to remember how sparing Darko went. The big difference between sparing Darko vs Dimitri is the fact that Darko was very similar to Niko, he still suffered and had to live with the guilt. Dimitri is pure evil however, the whole game makes a point to show you that Dimitri will always keep betraying people and screwing with them, because that's the kind of person he is. It doesn't follow the revenge arc, and that's the entire point.
I feel like R* made those two endings like that to show that Niko didn't really have an arch and show that not every story needs to have an arch to be good.
Having played GTA IV many times over for years, one conclusion I've come to is that if Niko was allowed to have it all, he could've dealt with Pegorino and Dimitri before either of them had a chance to go after him. Even if they were aiming for an either/or unhappy ending, Rockstar's way of crafting the story doesn't hold up with all the holes you can poke through it. GTA V's ending may have been a bit more Hollywood-like given it's setting but even then, it was proof you could have it both ways.
Niko doesn't wanna be a criminal and by the end of the game he grows tired of it and just wants to live a normal life. Gta 5 actually does mention that with him "Going quiet" and on jimmy's computer you can see he works at bellic enterprises implying he works with roman and that revenge is the canon ending. I'm not a fan of 5, it's a fine game with pretty weak writing, but if it was gonna mention niko that's the best way they could have done it. Shame they didn't do the same for johnny, and yes i'm still upset about that.
I personally will always have a problem with this game's driving mechanics. I dont care about how realistic they are supposed to feel. If i have to spend 70% of the game driving i dont want to slide across every corner.
In my heart, although i am a sinner, i took Darkos life because i believe that turning the other cheek and "being the better man" ain't doing this ideal world of mine in my head any favors. The trash needs to be taken out, some simply cannot be redeemed and although our lord and savior should be the one to judge the fate of these animals who enter his holy temple and don't respect his laws, we can't expect God to do all the work. The suffering will go on unless some righteous actions take place, also yes Joshua Graham has left an impact on me. Plus since i'm also a piece of trash that may take action on myself and relieve this world of more garbage, taking some with me will be my gift to these godless lands. I'm just thankful i get to make those decisions in game and not somewhere else lol, i'm already numb to them so the "emptiness" that this action will leave Niko with is whatever to me. Both Darko and Dimitri got what was coming to them, "Actions have consequences. You screwed me over, now you're paying for it", no one's gonna miss them anyway so there's not that big of a cycle of violence to fear here and since my actions will feel righteous...yea i'll feel proud of what i've done. I mean SOMEBODY has to take care of the trash
Am I the only one sorely disappointed in Dimitri as the "betrayer" antagonist? He never did much for me. That said, he is much better than the other dude whose name I neglected to memorize.
Did we talk in a discord server once. I remember talking to a guy once a while ago in Discord that had that exact idea to compare the last of us part 2 and gta IV's revenge story's.
Any GTA protagonist is never really a good guy. It’s all about making them charismatic enough to still make them likable. Nico felt very real, but it’s obvious from GTA 5 that they learned something from how people received this game.
I like your points however I disagree - I think it makes sense for Niko to both kill Dimitri and do the deal. Niko’s story is about survival and as such, either scenario would benefit Niko and Roman, which was most important to Niko. Doing the deal, ideally, is supposed to accomplish just that. Killing Dimitri is supposed to accomplish Niko and Roman’s safety. Additionally I think Niko going after Dimitri in lieu of the deal is not the same as killing Darko at all because Dimitri presents a threat, Darko does not and you did say that Niko deciding to kill Dimitri is Niko protecting himself and Roman so you get my point. I actually like Pegorino as the main antagonist and some antagonists did not appear until the end but were still good enough, and Jimmy is a background character for most of the story, similarly to Sonny Forelli. Also you could argue for your point about Niko and Darko not being so different to other protagonists and their main antagonist. However I think Niko killing Derrick/Francis might be the worst act of betrayal that he commits throughout the story.
i always chose to kill darko then i chose to kill dimitri because hey "F--- you demitri" nah jk but honestly i am the kind that if ya betray me, idc how i feel...imma get my revenge against the enemy at the end of the day there is a common known rule...or not so known rule which is no loose ends, for me darko, demitri, and the 3rd guy are all loose ends who must be wrapped up, there for no loose ends can remain and must be wrapped up... that is how i atleast rationalize killing demitri and the 3rd guy, darko maybe don't deserve to die, but the other 2 defiently deserve it in my opinion
Yeah, controversial opinion indeed... Like many said, I see where you're coming from, and it is more satisfying gameplay-wise to kill Dimitri last. That said, story-wise (and this is all my opinion), the Revenge ending is the only one that makes sense, simply due to the fact that, although we just went through the "revenge is unfulfilling" arc, Niko's principles about not working with Dimitri were much stronger for him. Even the dialog Niko has with Phil Bell if he takes the deal sounds like a completely different character since Niko, despite having done a lot of stuff for money, was never as greedy as that talk makes him to be. I also think that despite the game calling it "revenge", it's really about self-preservation instead, because Niko knows Dimitri will keep coming back unless he's put an end to. And also, the whole thing with Darko was only about Niko, unlike Dimitri, who has posed as a threat to the people around Niko, and will continue to do so, as the Deal ending shows, so that adds to the motivation to off him. The Revenge ending is also a bit of closure, we play it on where it all began, the Platypus ship, for me it's kinda saying "we're done with all of that, we can truly move on", before the game pulls the rug off your feet. And then there's the point of view that like any GTA the story isn't actually about the character we play, but about the city we play in, and to me this says that it's hard to live in there, that there are no happy endings indeed, and that it's kind of just another day for it. I'm not saying the story is perfect and/or fully satisfying in any way, but it just clicks better with the context we're given. I agree it could be better worked, or there could be "a third way", but between the choices we we're given, this plays like the one with least holes. In any case, Revenge is the canon choice still if we go by Roman's LifeInvader page, and it's kinda the one that fits best between either choice.
Still waiting for you to make a "Hercules VS Thor: Who's The Better God Of War Villain" and "Every Mission in Grand Theft Auto 3 (or III) Ranked from Worst to Best" videos. :/
@@MedicineMan Well, Baldur took the W very easily from Ares (score is 6-3 for Baldur) in the previous video and it was obvious he would be considered better... yet somehow TacticalBaconProductions decided to still make that video anyways despite outcome being obvious from the beginning. However, Zeus VS Odin debate was pretty close. :/
I can mostly agree with the take on Darko's sections considering how much the game reflects Bacon's thoughts on it, That said, I never felt the Dimitri/Pegarino situation was necessarily revenge, at least not to the same degree Bacon compares them to Darko. I find Niko's decision to go after either man reflects his drive to keep his blood and found family safe. Dimitri because he's already proven over Niko and Roman's time in LC to be a deplorable monster who will sell them out or stab them in the back at any moment. He's actually pretty similar to the situation Niko finds himself in when taking on Vlad- Not really vengeance so much as just trying to keep his family safe from someone who's been extorting money from, and personally harming those he cares about. Dimitri does this to both Niko and Roman after promising riches and good will throughout the entire story and nearly getting them killed a solid five or six times before the ending. Pegarino is a similar case, considering that he actively sends hitmen after Niko's family and succeeds in ending Roman's life, meaning that he's a direct threat who wants Niko and those he loves dead. Absolutely understandable that he'd put a stop to that as soon as possible- I'm sure avenging his cousin's death was certainly on his mind, but I'm almost certain Niko's doing it just as much to make sure something like this doesn't happen again (Likely plays a part in why he doesn't pursue Kate any further either, not wanting to drag her down lest anyone else come for their pound of flesh) Oh, and side note- Since Bacon brought up a hypothetical 3rd ending where Niko truly leaves all well enough alone and walks away from the deal completely, I feel the "cost" for Niko should be deciding to go into hiding with Kate and Roman, but to make sure they're never found by any potential threats still active they cut ties with all parties and effectively erase their past lives and connections in the name of security.
interesting reading and great video. you're right about the plot and it's depth. but there is a fundamental flaw in your argument, namely, that it relies on your false equation between the two revenges. taking revenge on Darko and taking revenge on Dimitri are in no way comparable. Darko's betrayal happened in a profoundly traumatic and formative situation for Niko, and he comes back as an emptying of all that. Dimitri on the other hand is actually a real threat to Niko, his safety, and that of those around him, even if you don't know what happens if you take the deal: he kidnapped Roman, it is suggested by his phone call after the last diamonds mission that he had some unspecified link to Bulgarin knowing about that negotiation, and everything he says about Niko owing money to Bulgarin during the storyline heavily implies that he would never let Niko walk away from the deal Pegorino wants them to carry on. furthermore, Darko and Dimitri are two completely differently situated characters. put shortly, Darko is irrelevant, and Dimitri is extremely powerful and dangerous. so I don't think that part of your reading is correct. otherwise, great video, and I agree with your take on Niko's character
also, not true that taking revenge on Pegorino contradicts the "closed character arc". you're assuming the game is some sort of Bildungsroman where what happens will be formative to the main character and he will ultimately learn and grow from his experiences. when, in fact, this is a deeply ironic plot where, by the end of the day, the lessons he is apparently supposed to learn from were actually radically unique and non-comparable to anything that would happen afterwards. finally, that Niko has been going on about money during the storyline is no argument. he says multiple times and to various different characters (Boccino, Francis, ...) that the money is his secondary priority; that what matters most to him is finding the man who had betrayed him
I feel as if Bulgarin was wasted and shoulda been the second antagonist to go after Niko after you killed Dimitar. He was an intimating guy when we saw him and coulda been an another good antagonist to Niko better then Pegrino. I know you ruined the TBOGT story for that but that shoulda been cut and saved as its own game.
Gta IV > GTA V Edit: also the deal ending SHOULD be Canon... as much as it sucks to lose roman the story flows better that way and a way emotional death than Kate.. Plus the villian should have always been dimtri
I appreciate what Rockstar was trying to do with the story, but ultimately I kinda wish they had just not bothered with a lot of the narrative choices. Most of them feel like there's only one right answer, and I completely agree that the way they handled the ending completely mucked up the message the story was going for. I gotta say though even with those flaws I think it really speaks to the game's quality that we're still talking about it 16 years after it came out. Definitely a lightning in a bottle type of story.
The writing in the Expansions do benefit the main game with them continuing the theme of greed and crime. TLAD'a writing is enjoyable however it's the most flawed out of the 3. It does have it's moments, I think johnny is a cool character, I like billy and brian as the bad guys and ray was always one of my favorite bosses in the main game, so seeing more of him was nice. I blame the pacing of the game, it's far too short to tell the story it wanted to tell also moves to fast. I know Niko handles Jason in the main game, but it would have been nice if he stuck around for 4 or 5 missions maybe even be someone you do missions for so you can grow to like him. Jim is the only one you care for in the club house and everyone else is either bland or just unlikable. the characters outside the lost though are good though, i also like how it shows how truly nuts elizabeta is.(Johnny got done so dirty) TBOGT is more in line with 5's writing, so it depends if you're into that style or not. it is a nice change from 4 and TLAD's dark tone. I've seen people complain about how they handled ray bulgarin making him more of a joke character, though it didn't bother me much i completely get why some take issue with it i'm just happy that story got resolved. Luis is a interesting because he is a bit of a jerk and can be pretty cold, his heart is in the right place as he does care for his friends and family. Yusuf is also hilarious. I also think tony is one of the strongest "Best friend characters" in the series alongside roman.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Plus Niko and Darko look SO similar I figured they were making a point about how similarly broken they are
@@GreenEyedDazzler also, that could be seen as a sign that Darko really wasn't to blame for the change in Niko's life. Niko did that to himself by refusing to let go of the past. The main culprit all along was Niko himself
You know what’s scary about that…
Take a look at 2pac. Then take a look at 2pacs supposed killer. They look very much a like. Strange world
Also show how hypocrite niko bellic is
@@Elvis-m3ithey don’t they just both black😭
It also helps that they are both Serbian and both (I think is implied?) from the same village as Niko. So they probably indeed are like distant cousins, as most people in small villages in Eastern Europe are.
One thing many people did not realise in GTA 4 s driving and ragdoll.
Niko only ragdolled through the windshield of the car in a crash WHEN YOU DID NOT LET HIM FASTEN THE SEATBELTS !!
.when you step into a car and immediately drove off, he does not fasten his seatbelt, but when you wait for just 2 seconds an animation will play and he will no longer ragdoll in case of a crash. The same goes for when he ride a bike. Wait a decond and he will put on a helmet
I didn't even know that! I always thought it was by random chance that Niko, Johnny, or Luis would fly out the windshield and I would lol everytime it happened. Neat attention to detail that I didn't even notice!
It's full of beautiful little details like this. Easy to miss and fun to discover!
Yeah see i also still playing them luis and niko put in helmets but johnny does not even if you wait or who knows gonna test it but i think johnny doesn’t put on a helmet but love the weapons on the dlc
@ericl5871 yeah Johnny never wears a helmet cause it's "not cool" he and his gang are apparently too cool for helmets
Honestly in all my years of playing this game I have never known this until now
The reason why I will always choose the Revenge ending is not because of the context of the character, but more based on the tone of the game. I feel Niko was done with his own personal revenge story, but him going after Dimitri is not revenge motivated, but it’s due to the fact that Niko thought he figured out how crime in Liberty City operates and Niko knew how Dimitri can tell you an sob story one day and stab you in the back the next day. Even Faustin tells you how Dimitri is before you execute him. And since you said Kate is the heart of the game, then (IMO) it makes sense story-wise to take revenge because Niko is now more wiser than he was since he arrived in Liberty City and Kate seems like the next step to start a new violent less life until consequences reared its ugly head which fits the morally gray setting of GTA IV.
Exactly, doing the "last job" for Jimmy P while having deal with your arch nemesis, who is a psychopath that stops at nothing to eliminate you, just makes no sense for Niko. The whole "Deal" mission with Phill feels awkward and out of place, as if it was just an obligatory option while the creators put all the effort into "Revenge" mission.
and to make things even better, R* had the first mission in Revenge path tampered with an anti-piracy measure, where after you finished off Dimitri inside the ship, good luck getting outside as the missions objective marker won't show up on the first ladder
Kate is the heart, so what better place to get revenge then the Heart of liberty city
Exactly, it wasn't revenge but it was tying up a loose end. Niko isn't stupid, Dimitri would try to harm him or his loved ones if he let his guard down or even try to befriend some other poor sucker and put him through what he put Niko through down the line. I do think the deal ending has a more personal thing going for it with him being the final bad guy also the weather suits the mission better, but i overall prefer the revenge ending.
Damn, i never thought of kate like the 'next step' towards normalcy and happiness for niko. Thats fuckin tragic...dude really doesnt have a 'better' option in either ending then.
I think a better ending would've been Niko walking away from Pegorino's deal since he was done with the life of crime after the Darko story concludes (regardless of decision), then have the assassin be sent by both, only to then be turned into the motivation to have Niko come back to kill them over that and he ends up killing both during a meeting - first Pegorino then Dimitry.
It's always annoying when people say there's a writing flaw, and it's just that the main character didn't do the 100% best options every single time as if they aren't swayed by their own personal agendas, ambitions, or acting under the heat of the moment.
Why is this mentally unstable, depressed, and guilt ridden mass murderer not making good decisions!
Clearly this is a massive plot hole!
almost every story would end in 5 seconds if that happened.
My one thing with the final decision in GTA IV is that there's NO reason for Niko to want to work with Dimitri again, Raskalov has been nothing but a snake that did everything he could to manipulate Niko to kill Mikahil and become boss of the russians only to then sell Niko to Bulgarin, sure Niko taking revenge on Dimitri after the Darko situation doesn't fully make sense as even if you kill or let Darko leave Niko feels empty, so chasing another revenge wouldn't make sense, but I don't believe Niko would wortk with Dimitri after everything that happen between them
Niko had been pursuing Darko for many years already, possibly believing he'd get some proper closure and a climactic confrontation with someone he once considered close. Instead he got a shell of a man, who massacred his group just for his next drug hit. Niko feels empty if he kills Darko and slightly positive if he spares him, since he knows he wouldn't bring back the people he lost, nor rescue himself from his trauma. Dmitri, on the other hand, is a very real and very active threat to both him and his peers. For the entirety of the game Dmitri harasses Niko, threatens his friends and even kidnaps Roman.
Honestly, Niko doesn't so much get revenge on Dmitri as he stops him from endangering his loved ones any further. Niko has less of a connection to Dmitri than to Darko, so the revenge is purely pragmatic, rather than driven by years of internal turmoil and a sense of honor.
@ATomatoIsAFruit
But there still wasnt any reason for him to work for dimitri.
Honestly the ending is rushed, it comes out of nowehere any proper build up. Its like GTA san andreas, both long game with rushed endings
@@pelucheCR7 Roman is the reason
I would have to disagree on Niko choosing to work a deal with Dimitri Rascalov over taken revenge on him. The difference between him and Darko is that Darko really doesn't pose a threat to Niko or anybody he knows. Darko is a junkie and possibly has lived a horrible life after the war and makes sense for Niko to let him live and suffer with his life choices. Then with Dimitri he has been a threat to Niko for a while in the game and he is also a snake so I don't think Niko would feel like getting burnt by him again even for the money(plus through to game Niko acquires a bunch of money and property so I dont think he would really be down bad to take the deal). If there was a walk away option it could be a 50/50 chance of Niko not having to deal with Dimitri ever again, but it doesn't guarantee Dimitri wouldn't come after him again. So I think it is justified for Niko to get revenge on him in the story context, but that just my way of seeing it. Overall good video!
Yes. Revenge always gets a bad rep. But if you think about it from a evolutionary perspective, you realize it's more so 'eliminating a potential future threat.' Meaning, you already know this person harmed you, and you know he will continue to do so unless you take serious action.
@@Xenozillex i always prefer the stories that say "how far would you go for revenge?" instead of just the trite, black-and-white "revenge bad"
that is also why the "revenge bad" message of "no more heroes 2" falls flat. jasper batt jr is a serious threat, not just to travis, but to the entire city, so it makes perfect sense to go after him. he has hurt you before, and is entirely capable and willing to do so again. why would you not want him out of the way? ah, yes, because the writer wanted a message of "revenge is unsatisfying"
@Xenozillex I don't think it's so much revenge that gets a bad rep because I honestly do think it makes more sense for Niko to kill Dimitri rather than trust him again. Plus at least 95 % of players take revenge. I think it's more a case of Pegorino feeling like an underwhelming final boss because he only comes into the game later on, as opposed to Dimitri who puts Niko through so much and is a constant thorn in his side for most of the story. The only justification for taking deal is that Dimitri makes more sense as a final boss, but even then you are having Roman killed and sparing Kate who leaves you anyway. It's not worth it. And honestly A Revenger's Tragedy isn't as satisfying as A Dish Served Cold. The assassination was a much cooler way to take him out as opposed to just watching him die as Niko insults him. Plus you may have noticed if you take the deal ending, the Statue Of Happiness has it's back to you after the final mission. That's not the case if you take revenge. Morally it's the best ending, and in general.
A 3rd option where Niko walks away is really interesting to think about if nothing else.
Bulgarin should have been the second antagonist instead of Pegorino. And they could have had Pegorino as the bad guy for The Ballad DLC.
I can't lie though. Luis taking on a russian mafia was badass.
I think Ray, being the Antagonist of The Lost And The Damned would've been better as Niko killing Ray pachino. Had no weight behind it. At least Johnny had a better excuse for killing him.
Maybe they could've made you kill Billy in prison and then go and kill Ray after.
Pegorino makes a lot more sense as an antagonist of TLAD than TBoGT due to Ray's involvement
I think a better alternative to all yours guys suggestions is to have The Ballad be its own full game and have set in Vice City. Then in GTA 4 you can have Dimitri and Bulgarin be the main antagonist for Niko. And Pegorino and Ray for Johnny. You could also have more mission for The Lost to flesh everything out instead of skipping over the Civil war and the war with the mob.
niko never moves on not even after the finale
Lesson to be learned eh?
That's the point, I believe. There's no closure, that's it.
@@unhelmet5218 Same as in Metal Gear Solid V
@@unhelmet5218 "only those who die get closure, the living do not" niko
I think he does, doesn't Lester in GTA5 mention that Niko went quiet? And he is not dead, neither is Roman, since both appear on Life invader profiles in 2013 wishing someone a good birthday or something.
I feel like the revenge ending makes more sense nico killing dimitri is a sort of closure for him trying to end his live of crime and then kate dying is a symbol for him not being allowed to.
I actually both agree and disagree
Where i disagree in that the moral of the final choice is “revenge is good”, i dont think the game in either option really is making a comment about if revenge is always good or always bad, rather exploring the idea of revenge and how Niko and others react to it
I also dont think killing Dimitri is merely “Revenge”, i believe it being called the Revenge Ending is the game framing it so you might be caught out and pick deal instead. I’ve heard people call it the “Insurance” ending instead. Keep in mind the three missions where Dimitri really tries to fuck with you - Hostile Negotiation, Diamonds, the Bryce Dawkins blackmail arc - can actually all be done near the end of the game. Dimitri is a looming threat and actively acts like a slimeball while trying to sell you on working with him. You KNOW he will betray you
I also dont think Pegorino or Dimitri is really all that powerful, the Heroin deal kept them afloat but it involved Dimitri pissing off a potential business partner by betraying them like he always does
And i think that Niko in the revenge ending kind of is aware he’s essentially rebroken himself by going after Jimmy, he congratulates Roman on having a kid but seems distant from his family now. There’s a silver lining in the Deal ending where Mallorie tells Niko she’s pregnant and he offers to father the kid since Roman’s dead. Again that doesnt really help all that much because the Deal ending is way sadder, but there is at least some tit for tat in that respect. Do you want Niko to have his family who will always help but be slowly growing distant and self destructive again or lose his family but be forced to perhaps regain that lost hope by becoming a father?
I think that there are problems with these endings tho that you touch on. I dont think theyre that well written and I get what theyre going for but the roles seem wrong. I think that Pegorino’s death is satisfying because Niko essentially gets to cut into how much of a failure the Alderney mob is and i love the Platypus mission involving Dimitri but I just massively prefer Dimitri being the final boss and it never lined up to me that Niko would just leave Jimmy P be so i’ve never felt the endings have lined up well. Kate was actually meant to be at the wedding in Deal but was cut out supposedly to make the endings have more contrast. She actually has animations in the cutscene they just hid her under the map
I think you touch on what i kinda wanted: i kinda like the idea of Niko just saying “im out” and then having a third ending that maybe combines killing both Kate and Roman with killing Dimitri at the end. Like then it’s almost an inverse of V: picking C is the nightmare scenario
I also think there’s other problems with how IV’s story goes, mostly that i feel there’s a lot of third act filler which in terms of dev time couldve been cut in favor of making the DLCs a little longer. I also think they introduce Jimmy too late and the ordering of some of the arcs leads to certain plots feeling like they dont make sense, which to me factors into the revenge plot by making it not as affective: for example, I think the fact you can do Gravelli’s missions before all of Peg and Bell’s means that Niko already knows Darko is coming and he has less of a reason to further ingrain himself with the Alderney mob that leads to this ending choice
Overall looking forward to more GTAIV stuff ive been playing it too, got 100 percent on it and all the DLCs. If youre doing a mission rank thatll be interesting, i love IV but the missions are probably the weakest aspect because they kind of fall into the “drive here kill guys drive back” cliche too much. But then you compare that to the DLCs which have consistently excellent mission design. I hope you discuss TLAD and TBOGT sometimes, idk if youll bake it in with your ranking
Yeah, Niko can finish all of the Gravelli missions before the Bernie missions too so he knows darko is coming to Liberty City yet Niko will still ask Bernie if Bryce had gotten any info on Darko even though at that point he knows that the search for him is basically over.
IV is interesting in its missions selection because there are missions you can save for way later in the story than you usually see people playing the game do. Like you can have undertaker be the mission right before that special someone when (at least in the GTA Series video channels playthrough of gta IV) Undertaker is in the middle of the game.
Pegorino should’ve been swapped with Bulgarin. He’s literally the other major loose end from Nikos past. Either choice, Nikos 3 burdens get dealt with, just at the cost of a loved one. Luis or Johnny can then take care of Pegorino.
This is what I suggested as well, have Bulgarin be the second antagonist, I know it ruins TBOGT but as said in my old comment you can make that its own game so you can cut it out of the story so just leaving GTA and LOTD. For lost you can have The Pegorinos be their antagonist alongside Billy.
Hmm, I think the two endings are both crucial to the nuances of revenge in GTA IV.
The Deal ending is a showcase of a greater point. I don't think they wanted a balanced pair of endings. Deal is meant to be awful, because it's saying somethin'.
Getting revenge on Darko was always a somewhat pointless goal. Revenge on a man who hasn't been in Niko's life for years, isn't a threat to him and who isn't even on the same continent. Niko knows, on some level, that seeking revenge against Darko was pointless. Just an excuse like so many others he has to indulge in his violent side. The others being 'because I'm good at it', 'because I need the money' and 'because I can't do anything else' (the last one, of course, not being true, Niko could've stopped at several points).
But getting 'revenge' on Dimitri? It's the sensible action because he's an active, open and hostile snake. Niko knows he's a treacherous snake.
Kate leaving Niko is another twist of the knife, but I can understand her reasoning. Niko chose money over principles, lost everything and it's highly unlikely he's gonna be doing anything but spiraling from then on.
The message isn't 'seeking revenge is bad', rather I think its 'Seeking revenge on someone you know isn't a threat is pointless. Seeking revenge against a person who is an active threat is sensible.'
In fact, I think that's also part of why Niko goes after Jimmy in the 'Revenge' ending. Like you said, James Pegorino has nothing left. Nothing else to dedicate his life to other than revenge on Niko. Kate's death was Jimmy seeking to kill Niko in revenge for ruining him.
He wasn't gonna stop there, an army of two-bit hoods or not, Pegorino is a bitter man who has no other dreams left. He's the kind of man Niko was with Darko.
Another drive-by, burning down wherever Roman's new Cab Deport is, finding one of Niko's places and waiting for him. Going after his friends. Jimmy is in no position to care what he does as long as he gets to Niko.
The lack of a third option is also part of the tragedy. Niko could've walked away at several points. After Hove Beach, if he wasn't so blatantly looking for that Special Someone through every channel he could find he'd have ended up neither The ULP Contact or the Pegorino Families contractor. The former cuts ties after Darko because there's nothing left he can hold over him, but Niko involving himself with the latter on his revenge is why there's no easy 'out'. He put himself in a position where Jimmy thinks Niko owes him.
Tha''s jus' 'ow I sees it, any'ow. It's a complicated game. A million ways to see it.
Also, good choice wi' playin' Short Change throughout. One of the finest GTA Themes, in my opinion.
Honestly I don't think revenge is ultimate main plot point. It is a major theme for Niko, but his life isn't just that. Other people, family, friends, acquaintances, enemies - that's his life, his weird and amazing living in Liberty City, which is also one of the most important characters. The beginning of this game, first act up to Bohan plotline is near perfect, unfortunately it gets a bit too distracted and bloated close to the middle, a lot of characters and not a lot of attention to Niko. I think it still ends on a strong note, especially with Revenge choice.
I disagree that Deal makes more sense for Niko. He is aware and reasonable enough not to deal with a person that actively wants him dead the most in this city, and knowing that Dimitri will never stop trying to hurt him and his family, it only makes sense to get rid of this loose end. It's not even that much personal as it was with Darko. As for Jimmy P being the "end boss" - well, if we take more realistic approach of this games, it makes sense. The "end boss" doesn't have to be the cathartic experience, it might as well be just some pissed wannabe mafia boss that went off the rails. Sure it's a bit unsatisfying, but with two satisfying resolutions happening earlier, it's ok, and Kate's demise just drives home the point that even after all is done, Niko's past catching up to him anyways.
What is actually pretty unsatisfying is the final mission, since it's just a lot of driving and shooting and stunt driving and QTE that is often bugged and flying the helicopter and it goes on forever and so easy to fail. This is one thing about the ending that I would change.
I kind of like that Pegorino is the final boss of the game. It's kind of hilarious because Niko never took him seriously and yet, Pegorino was the one that ruined Niko's chance at a happy ending, all because he was an unstable raging egomaniac. He couldn't even hit the right fucking target. Even a fat fucking joke like Pegorino could be the tool his past needed to catch up with him.
There's so little in gaming that compares to playing this game on launch, it was an unbeliavable feat. I was 12yo at the time and I already knew it was a game for the ages. I think every love letter video appearing in the last years about this game is justified. Yes this game have 1000000000000 flaws in the story, gameplay, graphics, rockstar games, games for windows live, game running at 20fps at launch, but I don't know man, it's just a insanely great game. I remember letting my computer on for a week to download a pirated rip version of the game at 30kbps, later I bought the game with the coolest box ever with the map and poster. Idk man, this game has an aura and everyone that says anything bad about it can come here and we'll kiss in the mouth gently and set our differences.
Mane i been playing this and loving it compared to gta v online on ps3 of course so still looks as good as when i was a kid gta v feels like a part time job and too easy gta 4 is great with the whole story and all the dlcs great too
I respect your opinion on the Deal ending, but Revenge is ultimately the better option for the story not just for a less sad ending but for Niko's character as well. The difference between Dmitri and Darko is that the former is an active and capable threat who has betrayed and put us through the wringer several time throughout the playthrough whereas with Darko he's a former husk of himself, a junkie who looks near-dead. I still killed Darko during my playthrough's because who knows what can happen in years' time, he just got dropped in Liberty City and is likely still wandering the place if he hadn't succumbed to his evident disease, put him out of his misery and be safe. Niko after that learns that revenge won't fulfill or erase his past trauma but that doesn't mean he should let a snake like Dmitri be. Liberty City has taught the player that it is eat or get ate and choosing the Deal ending because it coincides with Niko's character arc is fundamentally naive and doesn't grasp the full frame of the story and Niko as a character.
I always loved the detail that they chose to make "Darko" look like "Niko" if Niko made the worst decisions he could have in life and more. It seems very intentional the similarity in appearance that the developers went with.
I always pick to kill Darko, I mean, that was the whole point of going to Liberty City. The fact that it all feels so unsatisfying is just really fitting... which then leads to Niko accepting the deal, just to finally get out of the life, and do well for his family... only to have one last tragedy strike (as you technically loose both Roman and Kate). I am not a master storyteller, but it just kind of made sense to me this way.
I agree, this is far better than Revenge ending...
Not about the story but if you hate IV driving it's your own fault. Using breaks to corner properly isn't a hard concept. It's literally the first hint of the first mission But people are stupid and think it's bad cause you can't hold X and just e break around every corner like other GTA games.
Yeah i blame gta V making the driving too easy honestly
Typical GTA 4 fanboys
Just deal with the fact that some people don't like the driving, holy shit.
Thank you! The amount of people who moan about the IV driving is ridiculous. Yeah it might not be as fun as the 3D era, but it's easier, yet people make out it's harder. Yet won't even consider that it's a skill issue.
@channel45853 how is he being a typical fanboy? For pointing out the truth? Obviously triggered a nerve. Not his fault you were shit at driving on it.
I'd say, the best compromise ending would be Niko killing Dmitri, and then telling Pegorino to take the drug while it's still on Platypus.
Also, I'd argue that killing Dmitri doesn't necessarily undermine Niko's character arc. Keep in mind that Dmitri still poses a present danger, so Niko killing him is just one way to tie up loose ends.
I agree with everything you said in the video, the ending choice always left a sour taste in my mouth.
As you said in the video, the player should’ve been given three choices. Revenge, Deal, and Nothing.
“Nothing” leads to Phil Bell dying at the deal and Dimitri becoming a rich man, fleeing the country. Niko keeps Kate and Roman, but feels guilty since the money would’ve helped him tremendously.
“Deal” would work the same, but Kate attending the wedding would be up to player’s choice. If your relationship (or “fondness” I think it’s called in-game) is high enough with her, she’ll forgive you for breaking the deal and die at the wedding. If your relationship is low with her, she says she needs space and returns after the story is complete.
Basically, if Kate is at the wedding, she dies and Roman lives. If she isn’t, Roman dies and she lives.
The Revenge ending leads to both Roman and Kate dying at the Wedding, solidifying the themes of revenge.
I’d also add more things to spend money on, like safehouses and cars, to give the player more incentive to take the deal.
I feel like in the “Nothing” ending something bad should still happen to Niko, because I believe Dimitri and Peg weren’t gonna let him go after him not helping. Maybe you came have someone other than Kate or Roman die. One person I was thinking was Mallorie, have her get killed at the wedding. Leaving Roman a depressed reck and blaming Niko once again letting something bad happened even when having the choice to change it. So Niko can get revenge on both Peg then Dimitri. But it doesn’t change his relationship with Roman he won’t forgive Niko after letting her die on his wedding day, so they part ways after the story. Leaving Niko alone but Roman and Kate live.
It is precisely the fact that the Revenge ending is anticlimactic that makes it great. It's a message. Killing Darko, Dimitri, Pegorino and fucking Bulgarin if Luis Lopez didn't take care of that couldn't and wouldn't ever fill that void inside of Niko
kate ditches niko anyway
Everything great about GTA IV's story nosedives in the middle of the game. Niko becomes the loyal mook for whatever generic italian boss he works. The cutscenes are less nuanced, the missions are boring. They also sorta forgot about Ray Bulgarin being a dangerous villain with a huge presence in Niko's story.
Honest question but how would you fix that nosedive section of the story ? Because I never really noticed it occurring in the story,
Also yeah I believe Bulgarin was forgotten about due to TBOGT having him as their antagonist too. So the writers might of trap themselves in the corner when having him be their as well, I think one simple fix to that is have TBOGT be its own full game, then you can have Bulgarian appear instead of The Peg.
I guess the overall theme of IV is it’s hard to escape your past, Niko tried to escape his criminal life but got sucked right back into it. No matter what you do your past comes back to haunt you, that we are the choices we make and we have to live with the consequences. Hence the two endings. No matter what choice we make there is a consequence and that is losing a person we care about. Niko harkens this point when he says to Dimitri in the revenge ending “Actions have consequences” before he kills him. Foreshadowing Nikos actions having consequence by the death of Kate.
Best kind of birthday present is a bacon video!
Well happy birthday to you 🎉. Hope you enjoy it
HAPPY B
Well well happy cake day 🎉
Happy Birthday!!!
Darko also justifies his betrayal by saying the war also deprived him of his own friends, so all of this in that scene recontextualizes it even more in the contradiction of Niko's hunting revenge obsession
I respect your point of view on Deal, it does makes sense with Dimitri as the last boss for him being the main antagonist. I however think what Rockstar was throwing an unexpected curve ball at us all. Niko's personal revenge story arc has been completed, and it was how Niko would move forward, and so they offer us two choices. Betray Niko's principles (some criminals have those), and basically put Niko's sets of Principles, and the constant attempts on his life, burning down Roman's Home, Kidnapping Roman, selling him out to Ray Bulgarin, after having Foustin Killed, etc aside for a price. Or stay true to Niko's Principles, and eliminate an ongoing threat like Dimitri. That would be better for Niko and all of the people he loves and cares about involved. The Darko situation, is extremely different from Dimitri's, and I don't think anyone would put all of what Dimitri has done aside to do business with him again. Darko sold out his entire squad for money so he could get a fix, and it was eating at Niko for years. Regardless of the choice, Keeping him alive or killing him, won't suddenly take back that pain Niko has lived with the trauma he has faced. Dimitri is a Threat, not a vendetta. I don't think Niko would put aside history with Dimitri, putting people he cares about at risk, knowing from history it will only come back and bite him in the ass, and taking a chance on a risk like Dimitri, wouldn't make him better than Darko.
I agree. Narratively speaking, having Dimitri be the final villain makes the most sense. But I can’t let mah cousin die like that. 😢
If you pay attention to Kate and her possible dialogue throughout the game, she's actually shown to be very judgmental towards Niko's way of living to the point where her suddenly abandoning you isn't all that shocking and confusing to grasp as to why she would do him like that. She's also not that innocent either, she's not that different from her brothers, she just doesn't get her hands dirty like them
If anything, Kate is realistic. How would you be like if you had a family of gangsters and your potential partner was associated with them and has gone through and done far worse than your own siblings?
@@SecretMagician the problem with Kate is she didn't fully possess that awareness. She would openly joke with her brothers about the horrible crimes they were about to commit instead of just distancing herself from the conversation and always letting them know that she doesn't like what they do. Kate was the baby sister and viewed as such so she would've been able to always fully express herself to her brothers about her disapproval of their deeds, but instead she's saying jokes about their crimes that they're announcing is about to happen to make them laugh and almost validate that what they're doing is while obviously illegal, not something they should feel about. Talking about, "they're about to have fun" while having a legitimate amused smile on her face but then still trying to hold this holier than thou mindset shows the hypocrisy side to her.
She's also a raging alcoholic and has a lot of trouble keeping her mind at peace, just like her brothers
The topic of characters making mistakes or picking bad choices without being considered bad writing is a very interesting one, personally I think you could do a video about it explaining some good examples.
For me I think a good example would be Vegeta in Dragon Ball when he allows Babidi to control his mind because he wanted to finally setting up his score with Goku only to realise it was a foolish mistake because he's not the same person as before and the price he took ain't worth it, the Buu arc was a mix bag but they gave us Vegeta's redemption and I'm not saying the blowing himself up part but actually when recognises he's bad choices and admitting Goku was better than him finally letting his rage against him go away.
basically, making bad choices is okay as long as it aligns with the character and serves a point in the story. a character established as reckless doing something reckless is understandable. a character established as patient and calculating doing something reckless risks being bad writing, but can be salvaged by external circumstances making it understandable (for example, the patient character getting pushed to their breaking point, or placed in a situation where there is no time to think things through and the reckless option is the only one you can reasonably take)
What also helped me choose to spare Darko was Roman trying to make Niko change his mind, pointing out it doesn't look like Darko enjoys living that much. After that, with the whole Deal/Revenge situation, Roman suggested Niko to not take revenge on Dimitri, to move on and possibly live in Vice City after all is done.
It makes sense for him to choose to make the deal if you take into account how tired he is of killing, especially with Roman's incentive, who always tried to make him see the good in him. Alas, he can't escape from the past so easily, and loses Roman in his attempt to change. It may be sad as shit, but it makes for an appropriate ending, with Niko being forced to kill Dimitri after losing the only family he had in Liberty City.
He even sounds more at peace in the Deal ending, compared to how batshit insane he is in the Revenge one. Even suffering a greater loss, Niko presents himself as the bigger person when killing Dimitri, instead of being sadistic with Pegorino, laughing at his face as he makes fun of him. Compared to that, Deal Niko seems to be in the process of becoming a better person, willing to find something other than killing to be good at.
I'd be perfectly okay with this ending if it wasn't for Kate berating Niko, seems like the devs really thought people would choose the Deal because of money, like there's even a place to spend it all on, lol.
The potential 3rd option, “just walk away”, would see Niko taking Kate to Roman’s wedding, and being shot on the drive by Dimitri’s men. The final mission could be done by Roman with a bunch of help from Jacob and Dwayne (if you kept him alive)
Yeah I guess I have never thought about the deal vs revenge ending like that. I had always assumed Niko would’ve done the revenge option, especially considering it’s technically the canon option, but now I can also concede that the deal ending is also plausible, if not more.
I’m watching this on my birthday. Thanks for the birthday present.
If you pick a deal, the only friends Nico will have left is Little Jacob and Dwayne if you choose not to kill him
The choices were a great addition for the game since it allows you to decide who Niko could become. He is his own character, but the game let's you choose to play him as a heartless criminal, or a man who despite being sucked into the world of crime doesn't want that to ruin him and is trying to be a decent man. I highly recommend listening to all the date dialogue with Kate, since she sees that Niko is capable of being one, also it gives insight on some heavy stuff about Niko, Kate and even Roman had to deal with growing up. I guess you could think of it as a early concept of the honor system from the RDR games. I absolutely agree with your take on the Darko choice, in fact there's a really cool detail if you get your revenge on him, Niko calls Burnie and he'll refer to him as Florian, while if you spare him he'll call him Burnie Symbolizing Niko is truly ready to move on or not. I agree with your take on the ending, It's the most poorly written part of the game. it could work, But it wasn't done right. Another theme of the game is how greed takes over everyone, you can see it with the bosses you work for how they think they're all big shots. Vlad, Playboy X, Elizabeta, Pegorino etc. I really like the line that Faustin say's before you kill him "American greed takes everyone, it is like a disease. Only i am still sane" Maybe not that last part but it is true. if you pick deal That could be Niko being corrupted by it, Roman and Kate's conversation is like a contrast. How roman is being greedy and wants Niko to take the money while Kate see's it as Niko betraying his morals for money, being exactly like her family. but Niko doesn't outright tell her about his history with Dimitri and what the alternative is. Originally Kate was in the deal ending, in fact she is she's just underground if you use free cam, but they just cut her. Ultimately Dimitri just works way better as the final bad guy rather then Pegorino who only showed up 15 missions before or less depending what order you do the missions. 5 had the same problem how you think the main antagonist is Steve Haines and then it's Devin Weston who i just found goofy, kind of reminds me of Jerry Martinez from VCS how he's too over the top to take seriously.
Thankfully there is a canon ending tho where he refuses to work with Dimitri again and Roman lives, also Niko does retire and lay low after that, Lester in GTA5 mentions that Niko went quiet, and he is not dead, neither is Roman, since both appear on Life invader profiles in 2013 wishing someone a good birthday or something, thus confirming that Niko not working with Dimitri is canon and that he did retire from crime.
This is cool and all but when are you posting the video about TBP vs AVG?
It makes more sense why Niko would take revenge on Dimitri and not Darko because Dimitri betrayal happened a lot more recently
I hate that L killed Befer. Not spelling he’s name. That one mission with Lil Jacob and he show up like he’s Batman out of the dark 😂
Thats why the 7th gem roclstar sandboxes are my favorites naratively. Its not just about growth but also about recognizing character. Demitri is like the Frog and the scorpion fable. Its in Dimitri nature to be a scoundrel but Nikko? Hard to say.
But I agree switching who dies would have been good and walk away would be good if it ends in his own death and a scene were everyone else lives. I dunno maybe you get to play as Packie and get nikos properties and money for reasons.
I do kinda respect the that no matter what your ending you get that "empty" feeling nikko was trying to escape.
Need to wait about a half hour before I go outside after putting on sunscreen. This video is close enough.
I just think Deal feels more impactful because of Roman’s death (who was the one person that Niko cared for the most) over Kate (who just felt like a love interest put in at the last minute). Plus throughout the story, Roman starts feeling more and more like he will probably die because of Dimitri’s obsession with getting under Niko’s skin (the mission where you save Roman from being kidnapped by Dimitri’s men alludes to this)
As far as I recall, Kate didn't really know Roman or Malorie, so outside of being Niko's +1, I don't see why she would be there otherwise, other than maybe to be polite, since she presumably RSVP'd.
Its not specified when Roman moved to America
Roman: "I've been here 10 years!"
Niko has a very difficult and tragic path...
A lot of people chooses the revenge ending because it has more satisfying closure to the game and at least niko have Roman a part of his family who's still support him and have his back despite how niko brought a lot of misfortunes to his life unlike the deal ending where niko basically loses everything, there's even a hint that revenge could be the Canon ending because of the few Easter eggs in gta 5 that points out that niko is still alive but he's out of the criminal life even if the revenge ending might not make a lot of sense to his character after he spears darko as you mentioned in the video and I kinda agree.
Pegorino Family? a Glorified Crew more like.
1:41 yeah, in the game they say niko and roman are Serbian, with the game taking place in 2008, ten years prior would be 98, Yugoslavia would still exist, I also believe they say roman has been in america for 10 years
In my Option why the Revenge ending
Darko was not a threat
Dimitri was
I think there is a distinction to be made between Darko and Dimitri when looking at it through the scope of revenge. With Darko, he is weak, unstable, powerless and not a threat to Niko or Roman. Niko sees this and makes the decision to spare him which makes sense narratively as you stated. However, I do think there is a difference with Dimitri. Dimitri is still a threat to Niko and Roman, he still is very powerful, influential and dangerous. So I do think it makes sense that Niko would want to spare Darko and still kill Dimitri so that he and Roman can finally go about their lives without feeling like they constantly need to be looking over their shoulders. I think it is reasonable to presume that Niko knows that working with Dimitri will not bring the peace he is looking for because betrayal is all but guaranteed. Regardless of our difference of interpretation of the story, outstanding video sir.
Point is, Dimitri is also a psychopath that will always try to come after Niko, even if Niko won't be coming for him. Niko must be realizing it well at the end of the game. It's not even that much personal (much less than with Darko), it's just the matter of loose ends and family's safety.
What gets me about GTA IV is that it went from underrated to overrated overnight. People nowadays appreciate this game over the limits when it really doesn't deserve, which is just the polar opposite of how much hate this game got on release.
The only thing that bothers me is how fans can’t enjoy this game without bringing up gta 5 😂
I was a rare case where I didn’t like GTA IV because it was overrated, I got tired of GTA IV because I’ve done all I can do in GTA IV (including the expansions) and I just want to move on to the next GTA. For Example: I got hyped for Fallout 4 when it was announced, not because I didn’t like Fallout New Vegas anymore, it because I can enjoy a new change of scenery in the Fallout setting.
I've noticed this happens a lot with media from the 2000s. For example, people overpraising the Star Wars prequels or the Sam Raimi Spider-man trilogy. I guess it's the nostalgia talking. GTA 4 is a great game, for sure, but it's really not the second coming of Christ
GTA IV is literally better than V in every conceivable way
Who are these people
Am I the only one thinks gta iv is the most like a Quentin Tarantino movie? Such as dialogue the comedy and the show don't tell aspect the bank robbery scene is the perfect example it feels like a scene in reservoir dogs
Freddie Fish review and retrospective coming soon?
The plot would've made more sense if we've got to meet Darko after the death of both Rascalov and Pegorino. No matter what we have chosen, it would've closed Niko's arc perfectly.
Yeah thay moment when he yells "HOW MUCH" to rationalise what caused his friends deaths is also motivated by the amount of money he's been paid to assassinate people
So when he responds blankly
How much do you charge to kill someone
Hitsss soooo hard
Also now thay you've actually played tlou2 and gta 4 wouldn't mind a nuanced comparison on hwo they approach the topic in both games
The closest thing to a hero in GTA is Niko. Through excellent writing and a reasonable backstory, they made a GTA protagonist not a complete psychopath.
The game gives you the option to spare a handful of characters that didn't amount to anything.
I think that the game should've rewarded you for sparing those characters
Because when you really think about it Rockstar Games don't give you a moral choice on saving the life of Kate or Roman Bellic one has to die which will leave you conflicted because you don't have any issue with neither of these two side characters like this is the type of thing that will make Bruce Wayne Batman have a mental breakdown.
Makes tbe scene at the end of the ballad of gay tony. More darker then it looks. Yeah Niko does yell yellow cars but the guy is drinking himself to be drunk to cope with his loss of Roman with Kate or just Kate.
I can't agree that the final choice is poorly written. In fact I think they do really well leveraging the fact that if you spare Darko, then working with Dimitri will fuck you over. First time I played I probably sat and thought about my decision for 10 minutes, with Roman sending me texts saying to do the deal and to remember how sparing Darko went. The big difference between sparing Darko vs Dimitri is the fact that Darko was very similar to Niko, he still suffered and had to live with the guilt. Dimitri is pure evil however, the whole game makes a point to show you that Dimitri will always keep betraying people and screwing with them, because that's the kind of person he is. It doesn't follow the revenge arc, and that's the entire point.
I feel like R* made those two endings like that to show that Niko didn't really have an arch and show that not every story needs to have an arch to be good.
Having played GTA IV many times over for years, one conclusion I've come to is that if Niko was allowed to have it all, he could've dealt with Pegorino and Dimitri before either of them had a chance to go after him.
Even if they were aiming for an either/or unhappy ending, Rockstar's way of crafting the story doesn't hold up with all the holes you can poke through it. GTA V's ending may have been a bit more Hollywood-like given it's setting but even then, it was proof you could have it both ways.
Niko doesn't wanna be a criminal and by the end of the game he grows tired of it and just wants to live a normal life. Gta 5 actually does mention that with him "Going quiet" and on jimmy's computer you can see he works at bellic enterprises implying he works with roman and that revenge is the canon ending. I'm not a fan of 5, it's a fine game with pretty weak writing, but if it was gonna mention niko that's the best way they could have done it. Shame they didn't do the same for johnny, and yes i'm still upset about that.
I personally will always have a problem with this game's driving mechanics.
I dont care about how realistic they are supposed to feel. If i have to spend 70% of the game driving i dont want to slide across every corner.
In my heart, although i am a sinner, i took Darkos life because i believe that turning the other cheek and "being the better man" ain't doing this ideal world of mine in my head any favors. The trash needs to be taken out, some simply cannot be redeemed and although our lord and savior should be the one to judge the fate of these animals who enter his holy temple and don't respect his laws, we can't expect God to do all the work. The suffering will go on unless some righteous actions take place, also yes Joshua Graham has left an impact on me. Plus since i'm also a piece of trash that may take action on myself and relieve this world of more garbage, taking some with me will be my gift to these godless lands. I'm just thankful i get to make those decisions in game and not somewhere else lol, i'm already numb to them so the "emptiness" that this action will leave Niko with is whatever to me. Both Darko and Dimitri got what was coming to them, "Actions have consequences. You screwed me over, now you're paying for it", no one's gonna miss them anyway so there's not that big of a cycle of violence to fear here and since my actions will feel righteous...yea i'll feel proud of what i've done. I mean SOMEBODY has to take care of the trash
18:02 My condolences.
4 was fixed by modders recently it was horrible when i first played in 2014/2015
Am I the only one sorely disappointed in Dimitri as the "betrayer" antagonist?
He never did much for me.
That said, he is much better than the other dude whose name I neglected to memorize.
I don’t think I ever played this one. I jumped from San Andreas to 5, but didn’t really enjoy myself since Vive City
Did we talk in a discord server once. I remember talking to a guy once a while ago in Discord that had that exact idea to compare the last of us part 2 and gta IV's revenge story's.
I can say with certainty I've never once mentioned this idea to anyone else. Especially because that idea was scrapped sometime in 2022.
@TBP ight well, thanks for clearing that up. I must of misremembered a conversation or something. Thanks for confirming.
man you got lucky this game has 1000 issues on PC for me at least, utterly unplayable without 12 hours of surgery
Any GTA protagonist is never really a good guy. It’s all about making them charismatic enough to still make them likable. Nico felt very real, but it’s obvious from GTA 5 that they learned something from how people received this game.
I like your points however I disagree - I think it makes sense for Niko to both kill Dimitri and do the deal. Niko’s story is about survival and as such, either scenario would benefit Niko and Roman, which was most important to Niko. Doing the deal, ideally, is supposed to accomplish just that. Killing Dimitri is supposed to accomplish Niko and Roman’s safety. Additionally I think Niko going after Dimitri in lieu of the deal is not the same as killing Darko at all because Dimitri presents a threat, Darko does not and you did say that Niko deciding to kill Dimitri is Niko protecting himself and Roman so you get my point. I actually like Pegorino as the main antagonist and some antagonists did not appear until the end but were still good enough, and Jimmy is a background character for most of the story, similarly to Sonny Forelli. Also you could argue for your point about Niko and Darko not being so different to other protagonists and their main antagonist. However I think Niko killing Derrick/Francis might be the worst act of betrayal that he commits throughout the story.
As much as I love GTA IV, I'm going to have to agree with you. Well on some points anyway, Dimitri was always a liability
Niko killed Jason for 600.00 bucks
i always chose to kill darko then i chose to kill dimitri because hey "F--- you demitri" nah jk but honestly i am the kind that if ya betray me, idc how i feel...imma get my revenge against the enemy at the end of the day there is a common known rule...or not so known rule which is no loose ends, for me darko, demitri, and the 3rd guy are all loose ends who must be wrapped up, there for no loose ends can remain and must be wrapped up... that is how i atleast rationalize killing demitri and the 3rd guy, darko maybe don't deserve to die, but the other 2 defiently deserve it in my opinion
Yeah, controversial opinion indeed... Like many said, I see where you're coming from, and it is more satisfying gameplay-wise to kill Dimitri last. That said, story-wise (and this is all my opinion), the Revenge ending is the only one that makes sense, simply due to the fact that, although we just went through the "revenge is unfulfilling" arc, Niko's principles about not working with Dimitri were much stronger for him. Even the dialog Niko has with Phil Bell if he takes the deal sounds like a completely different character since Niko, despite having done a lot of stuff for money, was never as greedy as that talk makes him to be.
I also think that despite the game calling it "revenge", it's really about self-preservation instead, because Niko knows Dimitri will keep coming back unless he's put an end to. And also, the whole thing with Darko was only about Niko, unlike Dimitri, who has posed as a threat to the people around Niko, and will continue to do so, as the Deal ending shows, so that adds to the motivation to off him.
The Revenge ending is also a bit of closure, we play it on where it all began, the Platypus ship, for me it's kinda saying "we're done with all of that, we can truly move on", before the game pulls the rug off your feet.
And then there's the point of view that like any GTA the story isn't actually about the character we play, but about the city we play in, and to me this says that it's hard to live in there, that there are no happy endings indeed, and that it's kind of just another day for it.
I'm not saying the story is perfect and/or fully satisfying in any way, but it just clicks better with the context we're given. I agree it could be better worked, or there could be "a third way", but between the choices we we're given, this plays like the one with least holes. In any case, Revenge is the canon choice still if we go by Roman's LifeInvader page, and it's kinda the one that fits best between either choice.
Still waiting for you to make a "Hercules VS Thor: Who's The Better God Of War Villain" and "Every Mission in Grand Theft Auto 3 (or III) Ranked from Worst to Best" videos. :/
Thor’s better than Hercules solely on the fact that we had more screen time with him and we didn’t have ten minutes of screen time, if that.
@@MedicineMan Well, Baldur took the W very easily from Ares (score is 6-3 for Baldur) in the previous video and it was obvious he would be considered better... yet somehow TacticalBaconProductions decided to still make that video anyways despite outcome being obvious from the beginning. However, Zeus VS Odin debate was pretty close. :/
Easily the best story in the gta's history. Hopefully gta vi's story is as well written as this game.
There's a story in these games? Since when?
@@peighnesshonourchign9164 GTA IV, GTA VC, GTA III and GTA SA have a story nigga V is just a boring experience.
@@peighnesshonourchign9164 since gta3?
Could be wrong,but I think after 4 Rockstar figured GTA gameplay is too chaotic to have these stories.Well written stories are left to Red Dead
I can mostly agree with the take on Darko's sections considering how much the game reflects Bacon's thoughts on it,
That said, I never felt the Dimitri/Pegarino situation was necessarily revenge, at least not to the same degree Bacon compares them to Darko.
I find Niko's decision to go after either man reflects his drive to keep his blood and found family safe. Dimitri because he's already proven over Niko and Roman's time in LC to be a deplorable monster who will sell them out or stab them in the back at any moment.
He's actually pretty similar to the situation Niko finds himself in when taking on Vlad- Not really vengeance so much as just trying to keep his family safe from someone who's been extorting money from, and personally harming those he cares about. Dimitri does this to both Niko and Roman after promising riches and good will throughout the entire story and nearly getting them killed a solid five or six times before the ending.
Pegarino is a similar case, considering that he actively sends hitmen after Niko's family and succeeds in ending Roman's life, meaning that he's a direct threat who wants Niko and those he loves dead. Absolutely understandable that he'd put a stop to that as soon as possible- I'm sure avenging his cousin's death was certainly on his mind, but I'm almost certain Niko's doing it just as much to make sure something like this doesn't happen again (Likely plays a part in why he doesn't pursue Kate any further either, not wanting to drag her down lest anyone else come for their pound of flesh)
Oh, and side note- Since Bacon brought up a hypothetical 3rd ending where Niko truly leaves all well enough alone and walks away from the deal completely, I feel the "cost" for Niko should be deciding to go into hiding with Kate and Roman, but to make sure they're never found by any potential threats still active they cut ties with all parties and effectively erase their past lives and connections in the name of security.
One of my favorite games of all time. That story is probably the best lf the GTA series
interesting reading and great video. you're right about the plot and it's depth. but there is a fundamental flaw in your argument, namely, that it relies on your false equation between the two revenges. taking revenge on Darko and taking revenge on Dimitri are in no way comparable. Darko's betrayal happened in a profoundly traumatic and formative situation for Niko, and he comes back as an emptying of all that. Dimitri on the other hand is actually a real threat to Niko, his safety, and that of those around him, even if you don't know what happens if you take the deal: he kidnapped Roman, it is suggested by his phone call after the last diamonds mission that he had some unspecified link to Bulgarin knowing about that negotiation, and everything he says about Niko owing money to Bulgarin during the storyline heavily implies that he would never let Niko walk away from the deal Pegorino wants them to carry on. furthermore, Darko and Dimitri are two completely differently situated characters. put shortly, Darko is irrelevant, and Dimitri is extremely powerful and dangerous. so I don't think that part of your reading is correct. otherwise, great video, and I agree with your take on Niko's character
also, not true that taking revenge on Pegorino contradicts the "closed character arc". you're assuming the game is some sort of Bildungsroman where what happens will be formative to the main character and he will ultimately learn and grow from his experiences. when, in fact, this is a deeply ironic plot where, by the end of the day, the lessons he is apparently supposed to learn from were actually radically unique and non-comparable to anything that would happen afterwards. finally, that Niko has been going on about money during the storyline is no argument. he says multiple times and to various different characters (Boccino, Francis, ...) that the money is his secondary priority; that what matters most to him is finding the man who had betrayed him
Love the hell out of GTA 4 and episodes of liberty city!
12:06 is it me or did he say the same sentence twice?
I don't know what you're talking about 😜
19:25 well at least they wrote a realistic female character
I feel as if Bulgarin was wasted and shoulda been the second antagonist to go after Niko after you killed Dimitar. He was an intimating guy when we saw him and coulda been an another good antagonist to Niko better then Pegrino. I know you ruined the TBOGT story for that but that shoulda been cut and saved as its own game.
revenge is too happy for 4 deal should be canon darker
Gta IV > GTA V
Edit: also the deal ending SHOULD be Canon... as much as it sucks to lose roman the story flows better that way and a way emotional death than Kate.. Plus the villian should have always been dimtri
The Revenge end is canon and will always be canon The deal ending is retarded.
I appreciate what Rockstar was trying to do with the story, but ultimately I kinda wish they had just not bothered with a lot of the narrative choices. Most of them feel like there's only one right answer, and I completely agree that the way they handled the ending completely mucked up the message the story was going for. I gotta say though even with those flaws I think it really speaks to the game's quality that we're still talking about it 16 years after it came out. Definitely a lightning in a bottle type of story.
L.A Noire is a better crime story than GTA 4.
There I said it
GTA5... revenge ending of 4 is canon... Kate died...
GTA 4 is so well written
Wish you can keep Fals house
keep it up
Tlou 2s story isn't as great as the first and i do have issues eith it but the game itself is fun as fuck. Great stealth mechanics.
10:47 lol
What about the DLC???
The writing in the Expansions do benefit the main game with them continuing the theme of greed and crime. TLAD'a writing is enjoyable however it's the most flawed out of the 3. It does have it's moments, I think johnny is a cool character, I like billy and brian as the bad guys and ray was always one of my favorite bosses in the main game, so seeing more of him was nice. I blame the pacing of the game, it's far too short to tell the story it wanted to tell also moves to fast. I know Niko handles Jason in the main game, but it would have been nice if he stuck around for 4 or 5 missions maybe even be someone you do missions for so you can grow to like him. Jim is the only one you care for in the club house and everyone else is either bland or just unlikable. the characters outside the lost though are good though, i also like how it shows how truly nuts elizabeta is.(Johnny got done so dirty) TBOGT is more in line with 5's writing, so it depends if you're into that style or not. it is a nice change from 4 and TLAD's dark tone. I've seen people complain about how they handled ray bulgarin making him more of a joke character, though it didn't bother me much i completely get why some take issue with it i'm just happy that story got resolved. Luis is a interesting because he is a bit of a jerk and can be pretty cold, his heart is in the right place as he does care for his friends and family. Yusuf is also hilarious. I also think tony is one of the strongest "Best friend characters" in the series alongside roman.
Ahh GTA IV, my favorite GTA game and one of my all time favorite games in general. I absolutely love it.