You're making grand assumptions about players. Not every delve player just does solo content and is oblivious to how M+ works. Myself and others in my circle 'were' regular keystone masters and previously did dungeon challenge modes. We just eschew mythics because it's often a headache to organise and run. We're happy Delves have allowed us to play a lot more casually, while still having a gearing path that was previously denied for solo players.
What I'm saying isnt that players like you dont exist, but to what end? Tier 11 completion? Delves have difficulty but it's ceiling is much lower than mythics so toting around with high ilvl only makes sense for delve players to eventually join the M+ or raiding scene but that doesnt seem like Blizzard is currently accommodating that
@@ShawnSetGO "To what end" I mean that can be asked of games as a whole. If we are getting into the argument of completing content for an "end" what "end" is there to M+? Higher Key completion? What for? Mounts/ Achievements/ portals? Everything else all "resets" and ends each season so what's the "End" for Delves? the same as M+. To have fun playing a game.
If I never have to do m+ again I would be happy I only do it for the gear, so now I can just do delves and I am good. There is a lot of people that really don't like m+ If delve gear is for delves. The m+ should be for m+ and useless in raids. M+ gatekeep gear and have quite the attitude in general. It's about fun not necessarily difficult or competitive, but it's different for everyone.
Hope they put hero gear in delves too. And no, fk timers. Why would anyone want timers? It makes people stressed and unhappy... It is hilarious tho to see people that main m+ keep bringing up delves and gear...like finding out your ex has a new boyfriend 😂😂😂 how bout y'all mind your own business And don't pretend that evil delvers are gonna secretly infiltrate your m15 push 😂😂😂 first of all, most people are vy definition not the top 0,1%, and secondly, and I do mean it, delvers really don't need the fking adhd, full gas, no breaks, meta worshipping sweat fest that is a high m+. I'm not saying everyone that wants that is a bad peeson, just saying that therapy might be cheaper.
I've never said delve players have poor intentions, but people like yourself love to talk like it's your time and you choose how you want to spend it, and will simultaneously kill a key for 4 other people and go "woopsies"
@@ShawnSetGO1 no. Like I said, delvers DON'T WANT TO BE THERE. 2 just read their mythic score. You can do that, right? Why are you pretending there's no way to tell if someone is "a real gamer". Not like 90% of mythic players are trash at mythic anyways. That's why people ask for meta picks on m2. 3 are you saying mythic people won't abuse delves to artificially increase their ILvl to "pump big numbers" 5 minutes after they buy the expansion? It seems to me like the phonecall is coming from inside the house, if you Catch my drift. So again, stop Facebook stalking delvers, it ain't us, we don't want any of the heat, please, we just wanna live our life's in peace and be able to date any gear we want without having to run it by you first😂
I been talking about solo content giving endgame gear and most M+ people are against it because they are worried it will mean there will be more bad players in their M+. My argument is that there isn't a way to get endgame gear solo so the casuals HAVE to progress to M+ currently to continue to progress. Giving casuals a way to earn endgame gear without touching M+ means there will be LESS of them wanting to do M+. Its better for those who do want to do M+ content as only people who want to be there will be there and not the casuals who are trying to gear up toons.
Raiders said the same stuff about M+ players when it first came out. "Dungeon casuals are going to be in my Mythic raids" its sad and hilarious at the same time
If you don't want delve only players joining Mythic+, then they need to be given the same level of gear so that there's no incentive to and it's just a playstyle preference of whether you enjoy solo or group content instead of forcing solo preference players to do it because they have no other option.
@@ShawnSetGO Without a true difference in gear, they have no reason to show up. Right now, if i want to get better gear i have 2 choices: Mythic raiding or mythic dungeons. 1 of those is next to impossible to get invited, and have a cap of loot once per boss per week. The other is M+ with no cap and practically endless supply of crests depending on how good you are.
The entire issue is that delves aren't balanced in any way, and Blizzard know that. As a Blood DK and Shadow Priest enjoyer, I have a good view on both ends of the spectrum. If you take the Blood DK experience for reference, Delves shouldn't even give runed crests. Depending on how time consuming a story is, I can tear a T11 apart in under 10 minutes while mainly watching a ShawnSetGO video on my offscreen. Getting gilded crest for that would be an absolute joke. On my Shadow Priest I haven't even attempted a T11. I can comfortably run T8 at this point, needed around 620 iLvl to do so. Back when Delves would have been an option to gear my Shadow, going Delves was no option. Even if I used Mindcontrol to get through the trash baby step by baby step for 45 minutes, the Boss ultimately killed me in 25 seconds. So on the one hand I have a Delve experience that's comparable to running a random heroic dungeon in 620 gear, on the other hand running a Mythic +10 with a group of monkeys. If rewards are supposed to reflect the difficulty of the content played - how tf do you reward clearing a Delve? At this point I'm looking forward to Tank-Brann and see what he can do for Delve balancing.
Damn yeah, sounds so hype. I can have 1 set for delves, 1 for m+, 1 for raid, one for pvp and maybe another for open world? Can't bring my arms down, that sounds down right genius
If one thing 20 years of wow play has absolutely shown me to be a consistent thing. Selfishness. People say its an MMO, but people overall look after themselves. Every guilld does the same thing, the cool club, the cool groups running things. Yes, there ARE good people, good groups, but eventually it never lasts. After so many years of seeing it happen over and over again I'm sure like me many many people who are sick of this and play a lot more solo or with a partner. Add a timer and depletion and a 2024/5 attitude and its not fun, delves are great for those that play to relax anf even if M+ offered ilvl 700 i wouldnt do it.
i was browsing through the comments just wondering if any one else had similar thought to me and i was surprised to see your comment but you are bang on the money i have played since TBC when kara was the main raid and raided right through to legion where exactly what you reference happened, these days i just do delves i cba with the clicks in guilds any more and yeah i used to be a raid leader and run mythic+ in BFA and SL then i gave up on both sides i just play solo these days and if im honest i dont play no where near as much as i used too as i used to play 30-40 hrs a week outside of commitments these days i am lucky if i can be bothered to play 10hrs when i feel forced to do m+ or raid to get higher end gear to feel a sense of self achievement/progression.
Saying you should need different gear for delves, and m+, and raiding is the wildest take I've ever heard from any ytber... I just wouldnt do anything but raiding. M+ is aids. Delves get boring as shit after a while, but I still do them, because honestly raiding takes up about 2 hours a week.
Tripling the amount of grinding is absurd. And with the min max culture in wow, you can't say that isn't exactly what would happen if there was one set clearly better for delves, one set clearly better for raiding, and one set clearly better for M+. Even if it were 1% better, people race change to VELF/MGnome to try and get that last % for a 100 parse. People race change to Dwarf/Nelf to push high keys. And we are talking right a 1% difference in dps, and cheesing one or two pulls just to make timers by seconds.
You're very much a gatekeeper and elitist from the way you speak. You also role shame as well. Hate to break it to you but your content is not that hard so relax im a hardcore pvper and I still managed 2.8k Rio out of pure Bordem, AOTC (early in season) and I also did all tier 11 delves. Stop worrying about people getting close to your gear level in other content cause let's be real as I said mythic + only gets hard after 12s.
Blizzard: We don't want Mythic+ to give myth track gear because reward should scale to the difficulty. Also Blizzard: Delves are going to reward Gilded crest.
I dont know why people have a prob with this. 18 isn't shit. You worried that solo players will catch up to your ilevel and you wont feel superior? Delvers getting 18 a week takes nothing away from Mythic players.
If you let them finish the same amount of gilded crests per week in delves they WON'T NEED to come join (and brick) +8 keys!!! The 18 cap only further reinforces "ok you got some gilded crests but you need a lot more, go suffer M+"
But why even need it in the first place? To clear t11 delves easier? Part of why I say Gearing should be different is specifically so if solo players want to, they can scale with delves possibly going beyond t11 difficulty in the future, as apposed to just going to M+ or raiding.
@@ShawnSetGO So you are gatekeeping (: It will feel good to get more powerful and clear them easier each week for vault, and one day maybe they will transition to M+ properly and not just to chase gild crests.
"I'll get such high level gear that I can eventually achieve the same challenge you're achieving" This is why I cant take delvers seriously when the majority of the opinions they have is "we want so bad to make M+ obsolete, while also wanting to be them and becoming elitists ourselves, it's wild.
@@ShawnSetGO Just so you know I have done every KSM since legion and farmed portals throughout dragonflight, averaging around 2800 io. I care not for pushing title, and i don't love delves. I am just a realist. The game needs 1 simple shared seasonal cap for gilded crests to prevent forcing delvers to do group content they don't want to do. The serious M+ players don't like the delvers bricking the keys either. So it's easy, don't cap delves to 18 crests. Ion acknowledged the problem of having no real bridge from delves to low M+ and people try to follow the gear/crests straight into 8s... but capping gilded to 18 doesnt solve the problem it makes it worse. Blizzard always try to solve things with limitations and penalties and it doesnt work... take timewalking this patch for example - the level 11 twinks can crush dungeons in 1-3 minutes, so they buff enemy health by 66%. Twinks still 1 or 2 hit mobs... and normal groups take 66% longer to kill things... now it's 66% MORE effective to bring a twink, not less.
@@DoublebrutalCS2 The reason M+ players do not go into delves and complain about delves giving Gilded Crests is that Delve content is actually so easy and trivial that bricking a key to receive 5 gilded crests as the reward feels like a fucking joke when you then compare it to delves being actually free and reward a better crest per hour ratio. If the difficulty of the content was the gold standard, delves should simply not reward gilded crests at all. Where Blizzard went wrong was to even have Hero Track gear drop from delves, and give hero track vault.
There’s a lot of overthinking with this. The design is that solo players doing delves CAN progress to high level, but players are incentivized to do group content to get more rewards along the way and gear up faster. And this also helps when you dont want to group, have a lot of time to group or you’re just over grinding keys for the day.
I think the point is to not run out of things to do and being able to progress week after week and feel more powerful. I don't think every player has the goal of launching into something else or hitting 11s, but some progress each week is good, even if that means the content is getting slightly easier. Right now it's easy to run out of things to keep pushing if delves are what you play. My main is a dps that I raid and do M+ on. I have non-meta alts I like to play, and I don't like wasting a night in queue looking for pugs. Delves were great for those toons and I was having a blast, but with a 619 cap on champion and heroic without gilded I ran out of reasons to play them weeks ago. It's like being stuck on 7s. The vault rewards heroic pieces from 8s, but I can't push those heroic pieces higher than my maxed champion pieces. I don't really need to turn my champion 619 tier chest into a 619 heroic chest. Full 619 and that character is done. Aside from pugging, my path forward is getting 3 vault slots, turning tokens of merit into get runic crests and turning those runic into gilded. That's 15 gilded a week, before the changes that was 15 every other week, just not worth the time investment. I went from playing WoW 20+ hours a week to playing about 5 to raid log. With these changes I might have hung on a but longer, if I was getting 18 gilded from delves and then converting runic to gilded I could chase crafted pieces or 626. I'd still cap out, but it would have kept me going months longer.
Absolutely agree that delves are not equal with mythics. Why can't we have both so players decide where they want to go? I enjoy joining delves with a couple of dps friends to play. Mythics are too stressful for me and I greatly appreciate people who are really good and can do them. We all deserve a rewarding experience and the chance to earn rewards for the gaming.
I don't understand some of the comments. You don't need high end currency or gear to play solo or with a partner or causal. Currently you can have a heroic tier set from delves fairly quickly and never have to step into a raid. That's more than enough for all solo and casual content.
Everyone gets good gear, I do not see what is wrong with any of this. I wonder what the WoW community is going to say when Blizz adds a season mount to delves too.
I think M+ and raiding having fallen so deep into add-on and parsing hell has strangled most of the life from the game and that's probably why there's a group of players who just want delves or something like delves that's just accessible endgame content. As someone who has played MMORPGs as their primary genre since 2006, it's crazy to me that WoW became the "best" MMO on the back of being more streamlined, accessible and "casual" than any of its competitors in the early-2000s... To now where it is arguably one of the least accessible and least new/returning player friendly.
its simple remove the cap of 18 per week for gilded from devles and remove timer from m+ entirely and let ppl play what they want to play no need to force ppl to play m+ just to upgrade their gear
So I guess this is so that you can just look at someone's ilvl to reject them from m+ and raids easier. I don't understand the aversion to someone else 1) having fun 2) getting similar gear by not doing the "real game" you do. 3) not bowing before the m+ raid master race and playing alone in an instanced mmo that turns into a slideshow with more than 40 people fighting in open world. But to each their own.
Why do you assume its unskilled delve players not capable of jumping into M+, what do you think we played before we had delves? By your argument why should we want M+ players to come into Mythic Raiding, they should stick to their own content and should not be able to bring their gear over because they are obviously not capable of organizing and playing with 20 players right? More typical M+ gatekeeping.
I tried Mythics this season on my tank who had the item level but I made one bad pull and got the boot for wasting time. Then I got into another and died on the 2nd boss, it was my mistake, and got the boot. I'm beyond done with the Mythic+ community. They seem to have a very, very, very low tolerance for mistakes.
That graph is way off. Vault is 50 to 80% of PvE gearing I would say, mythic+ is all encompassed *within* both vault and mythic raiding except the rare trinket bis that is still more worth on heroic track than a myth track trinket, and mythic raiding is probably about half and half between vault and itself, with the rare mythic+ trinket again.
to what end do you want higher gear in m+? every single person that wants to push gear pushes for the same reason.. My gear gets better.. my content gets easier.. try not to be a complete Ion (Elitist Jerk) In my opinion.. Tanks should do next to no dps.. but should be extremely difficult to kill.. dps should be easier to kill than they are and make up the dps the tanks loose also.. they cant balance pve and pvp.. why do you want to have them have a 3rd or a 4th set of specs they cant balance? M+ doesnt prepare you for raid.. why do you feel you deserve raid level gear from M+? All of these are Very elitist for their preferred gearing method. Being able to cap in delves will get people that shouldnt be in M+ out of M+.. but that stops letting M+ sweaties brag about how much better than delvers they are There is a simple solution.. Cap all gear regardless of content at Heroic level.. All gear past heroic, or past m+8 only Cosmetic.. then people can show how good they are by having cosmetics that the people that cannot complete without over gearing cant get
Why are mad at this? Especially if they are trying to keep diffrent activities and there difficulties on par. Who cares. Let ppl play the content they want. Don't act like ppl are gunna breeze thru 11 delves. This video is useless. Terrible take
"To what end?" Isn't it obvious? To have a reason to play the game lol, the main reason anyone plays the game is to better their character, now they can [slowly] constantly better their character. I honestly think you're a bit gatekeepy and I fundamentally disagree with your delineation of where gear pillars should be separate, and I think the only reason the "unwashed delvers" are in "your mythic+" is because they CAN'T get any higher gear levels. I am onboard with the idea of having different gearing pillars but if they are, they should be HARD limited (eg. the gear should scale down to blue in every other content besides the content they're designed for). The thing that irritates me the most is that most of the BiS trinkets for like every class I play is from the freaking raid, I dont' raid and I have no interest in it, so make the BiS gear for each mode from from that mode (Raid is NOT as overlapped with M+ as you suggest). Pillars: - PvP - Raid - Mythic+ - Delves / Open World I don't know why anyone cares anyway, the gear is going to be obsolete in a few months anyway /shrug.
I remember when M+ came out and hardcore raiders used to spit on them for being "Dungeon casuals with welfare loot" its the same mentality and its sad as hell
Ok.. I was with you till you said it was easier as a DPS. I am starting to think you don't do delves at all if you think it's easier as DPS than tanking or healing. I have leveled almost every class. Rogue, Evoker, Priest, and Demon Hunter are all I have left, and I've done delves exclusively to gear my alts. Tanks are EASY to do delves with. I am doing Tier 8 delves with a lvl 80 Prot Paladin in 545 gear. It's not super fast like my Brewmaster Monk, but I don't die or even risk dying. Same for a healer. Just let Brann tank and you heal him and you are good. The classes that are difficult at low gear level are all the DPS classes. I still die on my WW monk who is 624 ilvl in Tier 8 delves because I miss a mechanic. Tanks and Healer have it SUPER easy in delves. S U P E R easy. Warlocks have it easy, hunters have it pretty easy. Any other DPS class has it ROUGH because Brann ain't healing you all that much outside of running through potions. BTW, I've am the Raid leader and have completed AOTC with my guild and run Mythic 10+ keys (though I hate Mythics right now.. they are badly designed).
Delvs are such an amazing thing added to the game there has been huge issues it has solved honestly starting back from cataclysm and beyond because around that time the game exploded in toxic players and new issues that are harder to see without understanding the whole of it. Now you just have so many wow addicts that are good at wow they become out of touch for issues they don't experience and because they don't experience the same issues they say they are not real yet you have a large majority of players now who ain't joining or running the best content and I'm not saying this is the only issue that makes it happen but it's a huge fucking part of things just so many asshats that are unrelenting and other weak people who can't think for themselves support them by kicking you from groups because you were being picked on haha just crazy to me. But delvs gives you a way to get good gear and wile shutting out the real bitches of the game that just can't handle themselves around other people.
Honestly I don't care one way or another. I've 16 level 80 characters and another 16 level 70 or lower as well. I'm casual and I'm solo, and I've been at it since early 2005 on and off. I'm lucky if my main character does 4 delves in a week as I rotate quite a bit. I don't understand the gearing obsession this game has with players. I guess since I play as a "loner," I don't have this desire like others have about having the biggest and best. I don't do M+, raids or dungeons as well unless it's a follower dungeon. Meshing delves and mythic+ won't work because of human emotions. If I wipe in a delve or a follower dungeon it's on me and I chalk it up as a learning experience. When you group with live players there is always someone who will get frustrated when they wipe and take it out on the group. The bigger the grouping the easier to see it happen. If the big thing is gear then what difference does it make where I get it from? Even in guilds you get this. I've seen it and heard it and believe me it is freaking annoying after awhile to listen to the whining and complaining. I don't understand timers either. They are nothing but stress generators and I don't need stress when I play a game. I guess if you have a masochistic nature then playing with a timer would be right up your alley. I've played lots of MMOs and my take on MMORPG, (Massively multiplayer online role-playing game) just states it's an online game that lots of players are on at the same time playing a role. It doesn't say that I must group with you, but the developers feel we must group if we want the best, so fine I don't have the best, big deal! As I've said before play it your way and I'll play it my way and leave it at that.
I understand what you're saying but I think where friction comes is M+ allows for such little error that putting a casual in that area offers little to bring the community together. I'm just saying if you want to stay separate that's fine, let's just draw a hard line between the modes of gameplay
@@ShawnSetGO There is no easy solution to what you suggest. How do you draw a hard line in any game? I wouldn't impose myself into something I have no experience in, but that's just me. Well, maybe a point system with a denial cap? Like saying if you are 4' tall you can't participate if the ride requires you to be 5' tall. That's not going to go over well in any game. Games lately are coming down to pay to play or pay to win. Those without the means to pay are getting short shrift and I've played many of these games. Take for example the $90 cost on that digital pack animal. Those with the money to spend bought it. Those who can't get to have that thing basically shoved in their faces every day they play. That's a reality that's hard to cover up. I'm 74 and I've played games like EVE and I've been kicked out of guilds because I wouldn't cooperate with guild leaders who had some lofty goal which they demanded of their members to achieve or else! Believe me when I say I have 100s of games on Steam and I can tell you which ones aren't worth the time of day to mess with either due to players forcing you to play their way or shucking out the dollars to keep on an even keel. I honestly don't see a peaceful resolution to the problem you brought up in your post and that's the dilemma Blizzard has to work on.
Make M+ experience not so horrendous. Most people are casual players not people that play for a job like your youtube channel or twitch streaming. I have played this game on and off for almost 20 years and the attitude is near the same from 20 years ago, I just came back from a near 4 year break. You expect players to play at your skill level and when they dont meet it you make comments about your experience being affected or for most instances people go to insulting and bashing people. I think you miss the point that alot of comments in game are how people are bad players and alot of players will just not continue to play in that space. That is a main reason delves were brought to the game. Like in most games not just wow the MMO game experience especially from the keyboard warriors is not welcoming and just flat out rude. It will not change because most people in the game are just bad people.
You're making grand assumptions about players. Not every delve player just does solo content and is oblivious to how M+ works. Myself and others in my circle 'were' regular keystone masters and previously did dungeon challenge modes. We just eschew mythics because it's often a headache to organise and run. We're happy Delves have allowed us to play a lot more casually, while still having a gearing path that was previously denied for solo players.
What I'm saying isnt that players like you dont exist, but to what end? Tier 11 completion? Delves have difficulty but it's ceiling is much lower than mythics so toting around with high ilvl only makes sense for delve players to eventually join the M+ or raiding scene but that doesnt seem like Blizzard is currently accommodating that
@@ShawnSetGO "To what end" I mean that can be asked of games as a whole.
If we are getting into the argument of completing content for an "end" what "end" is there to M+? Higher Key completion? What for? Mounts/ Achievements/ portals? Everything else all "resets" and ends each season so what's the "End" for Delves? the same as M+.
To have fun playing a game.
If I never have to do m+ again I would be happy I only do it for the gear, so now I can just do delves and I am good. There is a lot of people that really don't like m+
If delve gear is for delves. The m+ should be for m+ and useless in raids.
M+ gatekeep gear and have quite the attitude in general. It's about fun not necessarily difficult or competitive, but it's different for everyone.
I don't feel that it gatekeeps gear compared to Raid. You don't have to wait four months to get your bis trinket. Just gotta farm the same key.
Worst take ever. Someone is jelly. It's people like you that try to ruin other people's experience. Stay in your lane
Hope they put hero gear in delves too. And no, fk timers. Why would anyone want timers? It makes people stressed and unhappy...
It is hilarious tho to see people that main m+ keep bringing up delves and gear...like finding out your ex has a new boyfriend 😂😂😂 how bout y'all mind your own business
And don't pretend that evil delvers are gonna secretly infiltrate your m15 push 😂😂😂 first of all, most people are vy definition not the top 0,1%, and secondly, and I do mean it, delvers really don't need the fking adhd, full gas, no breaks, meta worshipping sweat fest that is a high m+.
I'm not saying everyone that wants that is a bad peeson, just saying that therapy might be cheaper.
There is hero gear in delves though? Every delvers bounty is a hero track item.
@@Uko980 IF and when they drop. Gone weeks and not seen one. Even Zekvir doesn't always drop one when he spawns.
I've never said delve players have poor intentions, but people like yourself love to talk like it's your time and you choose how you want to spend it, and will simultaneously kill a key for 4 other people and go "woopsies"
@@ShawnSetGO Would not be in that key if there was other options. Keeping the best progress in M+ = everyone "need" to do M+
@@ShawnSetGO1 no. Like I said, delvers DON'T WANT TO BE THERE.
2 just read their mythic score. You can do that, right? Why are you pretending there's no way to tell if someone is "a real gamer". Not like 90% of mythic players are trash at mythic anyways. That's why people ask for meta picks on m2.
3 are you saying mythic people won't abuse delves to artificially increase their ILvl to "pump big numbers" 5 minutes after they buy the expansion? It seems to me like the phonecall is coming from inside the house, if you Catch my drift.
So again, stop Facebook stalking delvers, it ain't us, we don't want any of the heat, please, we just wanna live our life's in peace and be able to date any gear we want without having to run it by you first😂
This serves as a good reminder of why I stay out of M+…….
I been talking about solo content giving endgame gear and most M+ people are against it because they are worried it will mean there will be more bad players in their M+.
My argument is that there isn't a way to get endgame gear solo so the casuals HAVE to progress to M+ currently to continue to progress.
Giving casuals a way to earn endgame gear without touching M+ means there will be LESS of them wanting to do M+.
Its better for those who do want to do M+ content as only people who want to be there will be there and not the casuals who are trying to gear up toons.
Circle jerks are crying blood.... Long live the delves!
M+ toxic community !
Raiders said the same stuff about M+ players when it first came out. "Dungeon casuals are going to be in my Mythic raids" its sad and hilarious at the same time
If you don't want delve only players joining Mythic+, then they need to be given the same level of gear so that there's no incentive to and it's just a playstyle preference of whether you enjoy solo or group content instead of forcing solo preference players to do it because they have no other option.
But without a true difference in gear they will still show up, inexperienced as ever
@@ShawnSetGO Without a true difference in gear, they have no reason to show up.
Right now, if i want to get better gear i have 2 choices: Mythic raiding or mythic dungeons. 1 of those is next to impossible to get invited, and have a cap of loot once per boss per week. The other is M+ with no cap and practically endless supply of crests depending on how good you are.
@@ShawnSetGO But isnt that what the M+ scoring system is for. There is an entire ranking system so you dont have to worry about what gear someone has.
The entire issue is that delves aren't balanced in any way, and Blizzard know that. As a Blood DK and Shadow Priest enjoyer, I have a good view on both ends of the spectrum. If you take the Blood DK experience for reference, Delves shouldn't even give runed crests. Depending on how time consuming a story is, I can tear a T11 apart in under 10 minutes while mainly watching a ShawnSetGO video on my offscreen. Getting gilded crest for that would be an absolute joke. On my Shadow Priest I haven't even attempted a T11. I can comfortably run T8 at this point, needed around 620 iLvl to do so. Back when Delves would have been an option to gear my Shadow, going Delves was no option. Even if I used Mindcontrol to get through the trash baby step by baby step for 45 minutes, the Boss ultimately killed me in 25 seconds. So on the one hand I have a Delve experience that's comparable to running a random heroic dungeon in 620 gear, on the other hand running a Mythic +10 with a group of monkeys. If rewards are supposed to reflect the difficulty of the content played - how tf do you reward clearing a Delve?
At this point I'm looking forward to Tank-Brann and see what he can do for Delve balancing.
Damn yeah, sounds so hype. I can have 1 set for delves, 1 for m+, 1 for raid, one for pvp and maybe another for open world? Can't bring my arms down, that sounds down right genius
I said there was overlap, and there should be. Just not one straight up circle. put your hands down fella
If one thing 20 years of wow play has absolutely shown me to be a consistent thing. Selfishness. People say its an MMO, but people overall look after themselves. Every guilld does the same thing, the cool club, the cool groups running things. Yes, there ARE good people, good groups, but eventually it never lasts. After so many years of seeing it happen over and over again I'm sure like me many many people who are sick of this and play a lot more solo or with a partner. Add a timer and depletion and a 2024/5 attitude and its not fun, delves are great for those that play to relax anf even if M+ offered ilvl 700 i wouldnt do it.
@@TJWood never has any guild I've been in been a choo kids club
@@ShawnSetGO You've probably been in the club and not noticed.
i was browsing through the comments just wondering if any one else had similar thought to me and i was surprised to see your comment but you are bang on the money i have played since TBC when kara was the main raid and raided right through to legion where exactly what you reference happened, these days i just do delves i cba with the clicks in guilds any more and yeah i used to be a raid leader and run mythic+ in BFA and SL then i gave up on both sides i just play solo these days and if im honest i dont play no where near as much as i used too as i used to play 30-40 hrs a week outside of commitments these days i am lucky if i can be bothered to play 10hrs when i feel forced to do m+ or raid to get higher end gear to feel a sense of self achievement/progression.
Saying you should need different gear for delves, and m+, and raiding is the wildest take I've ever heard from any ytber...
I just wouldnt do anything but raiding. M+ is aids. Delves get boring as shit after a while, but I still do them, because honestly raiding takes up about 2 hours a week.
I know the MS paint example isnt the best, but it's not that you should need the gear but that the overlap wasn't basically the same. That's all.
@@EvlEgle you must've seen the most mild youtubers for that to be the worst you've seen...
Tripling the amount of grinding is absurd. And with the min max culture in wow, you can't say that isn't exactly what would happen if there was one set clearly better for delves, one set clearly better for raiding, and one set clearly better for M+.
Even if it were 1% better, people race change to VELF/MGnome to try and get that last % for a 100 parse. People race change to Dwarf/Nelf to push high keys. And we are talking right a 1% difference in dps, and cheesing one or two pulls just to make timers by seconds.
You're very much a gatekeeper and elitist from the way you speak. You also role shame as well. Hate to break it to you but your content is not that hard so relax im a hardcore pvper and I still managed 2.8k Rio out of pure Bordem, AOTC (early in season) and I also did all tier 11 delves. Stop worrying about people getting close to your gear level in other content cause let's be real as I said mythic + only gets hard after 12s.
Blizzard: We don't want Mythic+ to give myth track gear because reward should scale to the difficulty.
Also Blizzard: Delves are going to reward Gilded crest.
I dont know why people have a prob with this. 18 isn't shit. You worried that solo players will catch up to your ilevel and you wont feel superior? Delvers getting 18 a week takes nothing away from Mythic players.
If you let them finish the same amount of gilded crests per week in delves they WON'T NEED to come join (and brick) +8 keys!!! The 18 cap only further reinforces "ok you got some gilded crests but you need a lot more, go suffer M+"
But why even need it in the first place? To clear t11 delves easier? Part of why I say Gearing should be different is specifically so if solo players want to, they can scale with delves possibly going beyond t11 difficulty in the future, as apposed to just going to M+ or raiding.
@@ShawnSetGO So you are gatekeeping (: It will feel good to get more powerful and clear them easier each week for vault, and one day maybe they will transition to M+ properly and not just to chase gild crests.
"I'll get such high level gear that I can eventually achieve the same challenge you're achieving"
This is why I cant take delvers seriously when the majority of the opinions they have is "we want so bad to make M+ obsolete, while also wanting to be them and becoming elitists ourselves, it's wild.
@@ShawnSetGO Just so you know I have done every KSM since legion and farmed portals throughout dragonflight, averaging around 2800 io. I care not for pushing title, and i don't love delves. I am just a realist. The game needs 1 simple shared seasonal cap for gilded crests to prevent forcing delvers to do group content they don't want to do. The serious M+ players don't like the delvers bricking the keys either. So it's easy, don't cap delves to 18 crests. Ion acknowledged the problem of having no real bridge from delves to low M+ and people try to follow the gear/crests straight into 8s... but capping gilded to 18 doesnt solve the problem it makes it worse. Blizzard always try to solve things with limitations and penalties and it doesnt work... take timewalking this patch for example - the level 11 twinks can crush dungeons in 1-3 minutes, so they buff enemy health by 66%. Twinks still 1 or 2 hit mobs... and normal groups take 66% longer to kill things... now it's 66% MORE effective to bring a twink, not less.
@@DoublebrutalCS2 The reason M+ players do not go into delves and complain about delves giving Gilded Crests is that Delve content is actually so easy and trivial that bricking a key to receive 5 gilded crests as the reward feels like a fucking joke when you then compare it to delves being actually free and reward a better crest per hour ratio. If the difficulty of the content was the gold standard, delves should simply not reward gilded crests at all. Where Blizzard went wrong was to even have Hero Track gear drop from delves, and give hero track vault.
So baby man doesn't want other people to progress along the only metric the game forces people along.
Got it.
There’s a lot of overthinking with this. The design is that solo players doing delves CAN progress to high level, but players are incentivized to do group content to get more rewards along the way and gear up faster. And this also helps when you dont want to group, have a lot of time to group or you’re just over grinding keys for the day.
I think the point is to not run out of things to do and being able to progress week after week and feel more powerful. I don't think every player has the goal of launching into something else or hitting 11s, but some progress each week is good, even if that means the content is getting slightly easier. Right now it's easy to run out of things to keep pushing if delves are what you play. My main is a dps that I raid and do M+ on. I have non-meta alts I like to play, and I don't like wasting a night in queue looking for pugs. Delves were great for those toons and I was having a blast, but with a 619 cap on champion and heroic without gilded I ran out of reasons to play them weeks ago. It's like being stuck on 7s. The vault rewards heroic pieces from 8s, but I can't push those heroic pieces higher than my maxed champion pieces. I don't really need to turn my champion 619 tier chest into a 619 heroic chest. Full 619 and that character is done. Aside from pugging, my path forward is getting 3 vault slots, turning tokens of merit into get runic crests and turning those runic into gilded. That's 15 gilded a week, before the changes that was 15 every other week, just not worth the time investment. I went from playing WoW 20+ hours a week to playing about 5 to raid log. With these changes I might have hung on a but longer, if I was getting 18 gilded from delves and then converting runic to gilded I could chase crafted pieces or 626. I'd still cap out, but it would have kept me going months longer.
i can for the life of me not understand how people complain about this change. too much yapping for saying absolutely nothing
I don't care about Mythic+ at all. I don't play it. I play solo and love it.
Absolutely agree that delves are not equal with mythics. Why can't we have both so players decide where they want to go? I enjoy joining delves with a couple of dps friends to play. Mythics are too stressful for me and I greatly appreciate people who are really good and can do them. We all deserve a rewarding experience and the chance to earn rewards for the gaming.
I don't understand some of the comments. You don't need high end currency or gear to play solo or with a partner or causal. Currently you can have a heroic tier set from delves fairly quickly and never have to step into a raid. That's more than enough for all solo and casual content.
i agree with this i just think it got overblown
Everyone gets good gear, I do not see what is wrong with any of this. I wonder what the WoW community is going to say when Blizz adds a season mount to delves too.
I think M+ and raiding having fallen so deep into add-on and parsing hell has strangled most of the life from the game and that's probably why there's a group of players who just want delves or something like delves that's just accessible endgame content. As someone who has played MMORPGs as their primary genre since 2006, it's crazy to me that WoW became the "best" MMO on the back of being more streamlined, accessible and "casual" than any of its competitors in the early-2000s... To now where it is arguably one of the least accessible and least new/returning player friendly.
Actually true, not just a correlation but causation
its simple remove the cap of 18 per week for gilded from devles and remove timer from m+ entirely and let ppl play what they want to play no need to force ppl to play m+ just to upgrade their gear
So I guess this is so that you can just look at someone's ilvl to reject them from m+ and raids easier. I don't understand the aversion to someone else 1) having fun 2) getting similar gear by not doing the "real game" you do. 3) not bowing before the m+ raid master race and playing alone in an instanced mmo that turns into a slideshow with more than 40 people fighting in open world. But to each their own.
Why do you assume its unskilled delve players not capable of jumping into M+, what do you think we played before we had delves? By your argument why should we want M+ players to come into Mythic Raiding, they should stick to their own content and should not be able to bring their gear over because they are obviously not capable of organizing and playing with 20 players right? More typical M+ gatekeeping.
They treat delves like a step child living in the basement
I find people talk about it like it should be the only form of gameplay in a weirdly toxic positivity zone that cant take a criticism
@@ShawnSetGO Your just finding the "M+ guys" of delves...
I tried Mythics this season on my tank who had the item level but I made one bad pull and got the boot for wasting time. Then I got into another and died on the 2nd boss, it was my mistake, and got the boot. I'm beyond done with the Mythic+ community. They seem to have a very, very, very low tolerance for mistakes.
How dare you join before you know the dungeon 100% in your sleep!
Ahh who here remembers the good old days when meta comps were the tool of M+ gate keeping lol.
still is brother man what you mean?
That graph is way off. Vault is 50 to 80% of PvE gearing I would say, mythic+ is all encompassed *within* both vault and mythic raiding except the rare trinket bis that is still more worth on heroic track than a myth track trinket, and mythic raiding is probably about half and half between vault and itself, with the rare mythic+ trinket again.
to what end do you want higher gear in m+? every single person that wants to push gear pushes for the same reason.. My gear gets better.. my content gets easier.. try not to be a complete Ion (Elitist Jerk)
In my opinion.. Tanks should do next to no dps.. but should be extremely difficult to kill.. dps should be easier to kill than they are and make up the dps the tanks loose
also.. they cant balance pve and pvp.. why do you want to have them have a 3rd or a 4th set of specs they cant balance?
M+ doesnt prepare you for raid.. why do you feel you deserve raid level gear from M+? All of these are Very elitist for their preferred gearing method.
Being able to cap in delves will get people that shouldnt be in M+ out of M+.. but that stops letting M+ sweaties brag about how much better than delvers they are
There is a simple solution.. Cap all gear regardless of content at Heroic level.. All gear past heroic, or past m+8 only Cosmetic.. then people can show how good they are by having cosmetics that the people that cannot complete without over gearing cant get
Why are mad at this? Especially if they are trying to keep diffrent activities and there difficulties on par. Who cares. Let ppl play the content they want. Don't act like ppl are gunna breeze thru 11 delves. This video is useless. Terrible take
"To what end?"
Isn't it obvious? To have a reason to play the game lol, the main reason anyone plays the game is to better their character, now they can [slowly] constantly better their character.
I honestly think you're a bit gatekeepy and I fundamentally disagree with your delineation of where gear pillars should be separate, and I think the only reason the "unwashed delvers" are in "your mythic+" is because they CAN'T get any higher gear levels.
I am onboard with the idea of having different gearing pillars but if they are, they should be HARD limited (eg. the gear should scale down to blue in every other content besides the content they're designed for). The thing that irritates me the most is that most of the BiS trinkets for like every class I play is from the freaking raid, I dont' raid and I have no interest in it, so make the BiS gear for each mode from from that mode (Raid is NOT as overlapped with M+ as you suggest).
Pillars:
- PvP
- Raid
- Mythic+
- Delves / Open World
I don't know why anyone cares anyway, the gear is going to be obsolete in a few months anyway /shrug.
I remember when M+ came out and hardcore raiders used to spit on them for being "Dungeon casuals with welfare loot" its the same mentality and its sad as hell
Ok.. I was with you till you said it was easier as a DPS. I am starting to think you don't do delves at all if you think it's easier as DPS than tanking or healing. I have leveled almost every class. Rogue, Evoker, Priest, and Demon Hunter are all I have left, and I've done delves exclusively to gear my alts. Tanks are EASY to do delves with. I am doing Tier 8 delves with a lvl 80 Prot Paladin in 545 gear. It's not super fast like my Brewmaster Monk, but I don't die or even risk dying. Same for a healer. Just let Brann tank and you heal him and you are good. The classes that are difficult at low gear level are all the DPS classes. I still die on my WW monk who is 624 ilvl in Tier 8 delves because I miss a mechanic. Tanks and Healer have it SUPER easy in delves. S U P E R easy. Warlocks have it easy, hunters have it pretty easy. Any other DPS class has it ROUGH because Brann ain't healing you all that much outside of running through potions. BTW, I've am the Raid leader and have completed AOTC with my guild and run Mythic 10+ keys (though I hate Mythics right now.. they are badly designed).
Delvs are such an amazing thing added to the game there has been huge issues it has solved honestly starting back from cataclysm and beyond because around that time the game exploded in toxic players and new issues that are harder to see without understanding the whole of it. Now you just have so many wow addicts that are good at wow they become out of touch for issues they don't experience and because they don't experience the same issues they say they are not real yet you have a large majority of players now who ain't joining or running the best content and I'm not saying this is the only issue that makes it happen but it's a huge fucking part of things just so many asshats that are unrelenting and other weak people who can't think for themselves support them by kicking you from groups because you were being picked on haha just crazy to me. But delvs gives you a way to get good gear and wile shutting out the real bitches of the game that just can't handle themselves around other people.
Honestly I don't care one way or another. I've 16 level 80 characters and another 16 level 70 or lower as well. I'm casual and I'm solo, and I've been at it since early 2005 on and off. I'm lucky if my main character does 4 delves in a week as I rotate quite a bit. I don't understand the gearing obsession this game has with players. I guess since I play as a "loner," I don't have this desire like others have about having the biggest and best. I don't do M+, raids or dungeons as well unless it's a follower dungeon.
Meshing delves and mythic+ won't work because of human emotions. If I wipe in a delve or a follower dungeon it's on me and I chalk it up as a learning experience. When you group with live players there is always someone who will get frustrated when they wipe and take it out on the group. The bigger the grouping the easier to see it happen. If the big thing is gear then what difference does it make where I get it from? Even in guilds you get this. I've seen it and heard it and believe me it is freaking annoying after awhile to listen to the whining and complaining.
I don't understand timers either. They are nothing but stress generators and I don't need stress when I play a game. I guess if you have a masochistic nature then playing with a timer would be right up your alley. I've played lots of MMOs and my take on MMORPG, (Massively multiplayer online role-playing game) just states it's an online game that lots of players are on at the same time playing a role. It doesn't say that I must group with you, but the developers feel we must group if we want the best, so fine I don't have the best, big deal! As I've said before play it your way and I'll play it my way and leave it at that.
I understand what you're saying but I think where friction comes is M+ allows for such little error that putting a casual in that area offers little to bring the community together. I'm just saying if you want to stay separate that's fine, let's just draw a hard line between the modes of gameplay
@@ShawnSetGO There is no easy solution to what you suggest. How do you draw a hard line in any game? I wouldn't impose myself into something I have no experience in, but that's just me.
Well, maybe a point system with a denial cap? Like saying if you are 4' tall you can't participate if the ride requires you to be 5' tall. That's not going to go over well in any game. Games lately are coming down to pay to play or pay to win. Those without the means to pay are getting short shrift and I've played many of these games.
Take for example the $90 cost on that digital pack animal. Those with the money to spend bought it. Those who can't get to have that thing basically shoved in their faces every day they play. That's a reality that's hard to cover up.
I'm 74 and I've played games like EVE and I've been kicked out of guilds because I wouldn't cooperate with guild leaders who had some lofty goal which they demanded of their members to achieve or else! Believe me when I say I have 100s of games on Steam and I can tell you which ones aren't worth the time of day to mess with either due to players forcing you to play their way or shucking out the dollars to keep on an even keel.
I honestly don't see a peaceful resolution to the problem you brought up in your post and that's the dilemma Blizzard has to work on.
First! Do you guys think we should get steering wheels for the new expansion?
Feet pedals for sure at least lol
Make M+ experience not so horrendous. Most people are casual players not people that play for a job like your youtube channel or twitch streaming. I have played this game on and off for almost 20 years and the attitude is near the same from 20 years ago, I just came back from a near 4 year break. You expect players to play at your skill level and when they dont meet it you make comments about your experience being affected or for most instances people go to insulting and bashing people. I think you miss the point that alot of comments in game are how people are bad players and alot of players will just not continue to play in that space. That is a main reason delves were brought to the game. Like in most games not just wow the MMO game experience especially from the keyboard warriors is not welcoming and just flat out rude. It will not change because most people in the game are just bad people.
Playing an mmo solo ... ok.
Totally fine, but the amount of people claiming it should be the primary mode of gameplay is astounding
@ShawnSetGO I agree. I think those people would enjoy SWTOR, an mmo turned solo game. They need to stop ruining games for others.
MMO =\= five man instanced content either though..