To me SL's greatest fault is its long term impact. It's one thing to be a bad expansion, have bad content, bad zones, bad features, or bad systems - all of which SL suffered from - but whatever problems come from those issues sort of just go away when the new expansion rolls around. And what you're left with are the 'bad' expansion's zones and vibes, which WoW's always been consistently good with. Cataclysm wasn't great in my book, but then MoP came around. WoD wasn't great, and I don't like the BS time-travel elements it introduced to the canon, but once we were back on Azeroth and Legion did its thing, it was fine. I could say BFA left a bigger mark but even then... once you move on, you can kind of leave it behind. We don't have to contend with WoD's Garrisons or content droughts in the game's current content. Azerite Gear, Artefact Power, Warfronts, these are all a thing of the past, and the game moved on to better things. But Shadowlands... Shadowlands touched SO MUCH of Warcraft, from its characters, its story arcs, its former zone stories, even the actual cosmic canon and setting of it, across all of WoW's prior expansion AND WC3, and it left a stain on each and every one of these things. Sylvanas, Anduin, Bolvar, Arthas, Jaina, Uther, Tyrande, the Afterlife, Elune, the Forsaken, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF AZEROTH'S CULTURES AND RELIGIONS (through revealing that basically everyone's complex, nuanced and varied views on the Afterlife, Ancestors, Ghosts, Spirits, etc. was not only plain wrong, but completely irrelevant and empty.) Be you an Elderly Tauren Shaman living and honoring the Spirits of the Land and your Ancestors or a Human worshipping the Light in Stormwind? Doesn't matter! In death, you're a blue angel serving as the Shadowlands' postal service for eternity, and your entire identity is utterly irrelevant because you can't remember any of it. What's that? You're an Orc whose great-great Grandfather became an esteemed Ancestor of the family by dying a Warrior's Death protecting his clan in battle? Yeah, well, he ended up in Maldraxxus and died in the Arena upon arrival, turning his soul, his Spirit which you honor in your rituals, into just a cheap pile of Anima... too bad! And let's not forget that the doors to the Afterlife still are not properly closed, because you can see Kyrians wandering around the 20th Anniversary Celebration grounds in Tanaris. So the DENIZENS OF THE AFTERLIFE just wander around in the open at the local fair. Way to just utterly ruin the integrity of the canon... I'm autistic, and Warcraft and its lore have been a special interest of mine for most of my life now, and I can't put into words the sheer damage SL did for my love, care and interest for this setting. Even now, in TWW's good hands, with good writing and world building and more than 3 years later, I doubt I'll ever care about it as much ever again. Even if the next 10 years of WoW are Wrath/MoP/Legion level of cohesive writing and world building, I don't think the stain and 'pain' of Shadowlands will ever be made up for or properly polished off.
This is perfectly put. BfA was the latest nonsense they've made after Legion's strife for solution against Sargeras, but Shadowlands literally obliterated every single aspect of anything related to the afterlife in the Warcraft universe. It is insane.
I feel the exact same way as you. I abandoned the game in the middle of Shadowlands, it was becoming unbearable. I finally came back in TWW and tried my best to give it a fair shot and keep an open mind but i just can't be made to care for it, the lore is so beyond destroyed. There's literally no reason to care for anything -- we're all just robots made in a factory. The only significant characters then are up in space having an infinte war with their infinite armies... woo. It's just so soul crushing to me, the wound still feels fresh -- BFA was super controversial and by the end of it everyone was super hopeful for the future -- This is gonna be the good one right? One bad expansion then one good one, right? What came was an extremely rushed, badly made, uninspired mess of an expansion whose grand message was that nothing matters. Side Note: I completely tuned out of the wow sphere after the announcement of the Dragonflight expansion, to me it felt like they didn't learn from any of their mistakes so I refused to engage with it. I decided to check out what I've missed out on and, my god, this is the most AI-generated looking expansion I've seen. No offense to the people that worked on it but from the zones, to the story and characters it feels like an AI model was fed all of wow's best hits and it pooped out this thing.
You really hit the nail on the head here. Death has no more meaning in WoW, because we know if someone dies they'll just go to the Shadowlands and be okay. It's so stupid, and such an awful plot device that like you said, absolutely RUINS so many different religions and cultures. They really didn't think through the ramifications of this expansion's story on the whole of the Warcraft universe, and I really wish it was made non-canon, but they still reference it in future expansions, so unfortunately it's here to stay.
You've done an excellent job with your post. Despite how I'm currently enjoying The War Within and the relaunch of Classic, there is an irremovable stain on the very soul of all that is Warcraft.
I completely agree! Every expansion had its faults, even great ones, but they came and went while SL just poked a hole in the very heart of warcraft cannon itself... Even good expansions like MoP had their flaws and in this case it was daily quests and last patch lasting too long, but that is not what we remember it for. We remember it for colorful beautiful zones and fun stuff and great raids like throne of thunder.... Heck, even WoD had extremely fun leveling and great first raid, but it flopped later due to lack of content and too much garrison focus... In the end, none of those things left a scar so big like SL did...
@@edd_TV Tazavesh was supposed to be the capital. Korthia was supposed to be part of a drust raid that ends with the attack on arden weald and the tyrande sylvanas cinematic. Both ideas got scrapped and downgraded in their own way.
@@edd_TV Every day I touched the Korthia max research route I wanted to quit. Doesnt help that I was forced to do it because of being in a high end mythic guild. And that's coming out of the Disgusting place that was the Maw. Which Would have been completely fine had mounting in it been easier
@@frewthelookingglass860 Honestly words to live by! We're all gonna be Running Wild! I honestly do wonder if they will ever try something like Shadowlands Remix. I don't know if the audience could ever stomach it.
Never let Blizzard forget that Shadowlands retcons the undead campaign of Frozen throne to be the Jailer's forces vs Jailer's forces vs the Jailer's forces vs the Jailer's forces vs the Jailer's forces.
I wish they would come out and talk about it. I think we deserve answers or an explanation. I think it's insane that this is the product that was delivered. So much of the lore was desecrated and we were just told to forgive and forget because 'Look, the Dragon Aspects are here!' I want to know everything. I want to know their vision and why it failed. I want to know what the hell they were thinking with all of it. Not even from a place of anger, I'm just so curious how this is what we ended up with. There is no way this is the product they wanted to deliver to us, and the fact we never heard a peep about it is just shameful to me. There was absolutely no pay off with this expansion, besides Anduin's emotional and psychological struggles. We were leaving this expansion with less than we came in with.
@@edd_TV Isn't there a book about this exactly? Something like an autobiography of someone's time at blizzard, the work culture there, etc? Maybe that might give some insight into what was going on with SL's writing process, who knows. If not, I'd love to see a similar book written that touches on those kinds of things, even if it's not blizz official. Maybe it could be like the "Epistle 3" blog post from Marc Laidlaw where he thinly veiled a potential plot outline for a hypothetical Half-Life 2 Episode 3 without directly addressing characters' names or using placeholder names for groups and events. It would be nice to have an actual Shadowlands autopsy just to see what happened and how we got what we got.
Me neither. Never. I was already tuned out after BfA ruined N'zoth and Azshara but that was the moment I decided nothing that comes out of that dumpster fire of a studio is Warcraft and WoW ended after Wrath.
true. Arthas deserved better. He was such a good villain that deserved a better send off then that and even slyvanas got done dirty. the whole xpac was just a sin to the lore.
Sylvanas allying with the very person responsible for everything that happened to her in the first place, serving him faithfully and never once questioning the plan or circumstances and then suddenly having a change of heart when she gets Arthas ptsd just cause she heard some words that reminded her of him. Absolutely TOP NOTCH storytelling right there. Seriously though, SL is such a stain on the Warcraft franchise. How Blizzard managed to shit on 20 years worth of lore in a single expansion is beyond me.
It's a crazy notion to think that a guy who is referred to as 'The Jailer' is somebody Sylvanas could trust in regards to both liberation and freedom. Just insane.
@@edd_TV She never once stopped to look around her and realize that this guy also uses DOMINATION magic, the same magic that was used on her when she was still Scourge and was forced to commit atrocities. Like the entire thing makes ZERO sense. And only when she helped him reach the height of his power did she stop and say "Wait, this guy who calls himself the JAILER and uses domination magic is....bad?". It's actually sad how much they butchered this character beyond recognition. I know for a fact that Warcraft 3 Sylvanas would absolutely hunt down and kill Bfa/SL Sylvanas if she saw what she became.
@@Sara-it9se lol, the part of WC3 sylvanas hunting down BfA/SL sylvanas is so true. Not only was there no logical and believable character development between those two versions, they couldn't have been more opposite. It really is painful.
Her soul was scarred just like Uther's, therefor it was easier to manipulate her via Domination magic, right? Dont get me wrong I find everything they did with Sylvanas silly, but she didnt just faithfully serve the jailor... Her souls was broken when Arthas killed her. Probably not something the Jailor planned, but when she game ended herself after Arthas's death atop Icecrown, The Jailer probably saw her as the perfect person to manipulate, since she was already broken on multiple levels. (Still I feel no sympathy towards her, yet I already see that they'll probably drag her Soul back into the story in the Midnight expansion...)
That statement was 100% stupid but WOTLK was not an end for the warcraft 3 saga. It wasn't even an ending for the Lich king storyline. The closing chapter was Legion. They had to retcon the whole fucking lore after Legion with this stupid ass retarded cosmic forces dogshit because they literally ran out of source material after defeating Sargeras and the burning legion. They were the og bad guys in warcraft 3 and they were responsible for every shit in the story up to warcraft 3.
I had to cut a section on 'Returning Characters' because I was worried for the videos length, but I really wanted to talk about Bolvar. He was the poster boy for Shadowlands, the equivalent to Illidan from Legion or Jaina from BFA, and he was just absolutely ghosted. We could have had so much more stuff with him and Taelia. Bolvar was a huge let down and who knows when we'll see him again. I just don't feel like he really did anything.
i think you didnt understand the stroy concept. Sylvannas embraced the Deathmagic while bolvar held it back. Thats literally why he sat on that throne. to hold back the undead and death of the world. there are quotes from him INGAME that state this fact. he is holding back to not fall into the trap of this magic. Arthas`? i would totally agree if this was LK arathas or "before frostmourne" Arthas BUT thats not him anymore. he is defeated. his soul crushed over decades of torment. what did you expect to see? a blond strong prince? a strong Deathknight? its gone. those are his past. he has been defeated on all levels. thats all that is left of him and his soul.
@@Nagria2112 nice point, but these two didn't do anything in the expansion where they could play some roles, the reason is because of Blizzard's p@litic@l agenda
My reason for hating Danuser saying "Shadowlands is the final chapter of the first book of Warcraft" is mainly... Legion was meant to be exactly that. The Burning Legion, the main antagonists of the series since the major lore revamp in WC2 were finally defeated. Sargeras imprisoned, Kil'jaeden and Archimonde dead (although Archimonde's fate can change if Blizzard feels like it due to the confusing nature of the end of encounter cinematic vs the intended mythic ending). Other major leaders of the Legion are either dead or forced to wait who knows how long before they are revived. The Legions war machine and portal network were also destroyed during our raid on Antrous. But most importantly, their way to accelerate their regeneration was removed. Finally, Velen watching as the portal that was made by the Sargerai Keystone closes and makes that sign of relief is why Legion will always be the true ending of the first "book" of Warcraft to me.
Oh man, preach! If Legion was the end of World of Warcraft, that would have done it for me. Of course they still have stories they want to tell, but you are SO right with this. Great comment.
Legion finished off all the main Warcraft 3 characters....except for...
Месяц назад+5
Warcraft is a story without end, 20 years later, WoW is still drinking from WC initial lore They spin the wheel and check who is the next baddie - Old Gods / Void lead to Cataclysm, Pandaria, BFA, Dragonflight and war within - Scourge lead to Vanilla, WTLK and Shadowlands - Burning Legion lead to burning Crusade, Warlords of Draenor, Legion Who will be the next Void / Burning Legion or Scourge Related main villain? And that's it my friends, how they develop the lore
I got a big feeling Sargeras, the Titans ANDDDDDD..... The one... the only... ILLIDAN STORMRAGE, will make a return in the world soul saga for sure. Only time will tell.
2 points you missed. 1. Death Knights got fucked on an expansion that could be alot about them. 2. Blizzards balancing was so bad on Legendary Equipment that they did serious nerfs to them AFTER people had spent real IRL money on upgrading those items.
That's very true. I don't think they cared terribly about any of the classes or races with this expansion. It was just full steam ahead with covenants. They sacrificed fantasy and identity just to push them.
For me, this is actually the best part. People who spend REAL money, are unironically the one who ruined gaming. Screwing them after they wasted their money is golden.
Sucked out so much of the mystique of the wow afterlife, like who know when a lore character dies, it gets put to work in a forest, become an angel police man, become a zombie soldier, or a vampire / drained soul, and if that wasn't bad enough, it was the blue balling of having lore characters not interact with eachother , like baine and his dad just not meeting
Exactly! All we'll think about now when characters die is where the WoW equivalent of the sorting hat is going to put them. I wanted to do a chapter on 'Returning characters' but I was worried about the video getting too long, but you are SO right with that. There were so many opportunities. Admittedly there were some nice 'Stay a while and listen' moments, but there was some crazy potential here. I'm a bit biased, but where was Tirion Fordring?! It was a shame that Varian was just reduced to a cinematic. I wonder if that has any relation to the way he died. I feel the same about Saurfang. I like their inclusions but you are absolutely right with this. I also think there should have been more focus on Bolvar, seeing as he was the poster boy for Shadowlands. He didn't exactly do a lot.
8:20 To quote another WoWtuber: "I can't believe they ended her story by having her jumping off another fucking tower I'm sure someone thought they were sooooo clever for that." /s
Haha, I can't take credit for the story recap but yeah, even reading it back and putting this video together at certain points I was just facepalming and thinking 'What?!'. The story of Shadowlands is not easy to digest at all.
I think it says a lot about Shadowlands that during a PANDEMIC, when we couldn't go out or function properly, I, a no-life who's spent the last decade or so playing WoW almost full time through its worst moments, didn't feel like playing anymore during Shadowlands and took multiple breaks throughout the expansion for the 1st time ever even though I had nothing else what-so-ever to do with my time. I met my spouse through WoW during the pandemic and we got to know each other through no-lifing it together. It was SO BAD that World of Warcraft, the notoriously addictive time-sink of all time-sinks, as a video game, an MMO no less, the one my spouse and I shared and enjoyed together as a hobby, made for such a SHITTY escape from COVID and confinement, that I preferred staying away from it for weeks at a time and only come back for the occasional RP event or Raid/Dungeon with friends... It's like having a brand of water be so shit that someone dehydrated and lost in a desert for weeks wouldn't want more than a sip if they found it in the shade.
Thank you for engaging with the video and writing such detailed comments! I'll respond via this one, just so you're not jumping around notifications! I feel exactly the same as you do regarding emotional investment with the game. It's a GIANT part of my life. I never thought I would start the game at 14 years old and it's still going when I'm 33. We've all had highs and lows, but I feel 99% of the player base all shared this low together, and it was rockbottom if we're being honest. I will say your observation about the 20th anniversary with the Kyrian is impressive. I never clocked that! But you are right, I feel canon and the narratively has gotten incredibly wonky. I strongly agree with you. WoW was always a safety blanket for me. I suffer with depression and anxiety and I've had hardships in my life. One of the biggest constants in my life was World of Warcraft, and I no longer wanted it. That REALLY confused and hurt me. The one cure and remedy that has that helped me so much in my life was no longer working. I relate to that so much. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts across these posts. I really appreciate it.
@@edd_TV Thanks for reading and answering! I greatly appreciate your videos, because they give a reasonable, grounded and mostly 'unemotional' analysis of things I've thought and felt myself over the years and it's interesting to watch! Thanks for the work you put into your videos.
@@Dehrild Your comment was beautifully written and once the dust settles with this video I will remove my disclaimer pinned comment and pin yours! Thank you for your kind words and your support. It means a lot.
The biggest issues with the Shadowlands were it's wildly extensive retcons of enormous swathes of the most foundational lore of Warcraft. Making the formation of the Burning Legion, the creation of the Lich King and all of this stuff all just 'part of the Jailer's plan' rather than the pivotal moments in Warcraft's story that they are cheapens them to unimaginable levels. It was a bad expansion for many reasons, but the damage it did to Warcraft's foundational lore is why I will never forgive it as an expansion. I get that they wanted to expand upon Warcraft's lore to prep it for future expansions, but there are ways to do that without cutting down the base that you've created. I legitimately hope that they completely backtrack on the Shadowlands lore changes, as it seems they've subtly been doing over the course of the War Within. I know they can't just come out and fully retcon Shadowlands, but fuck would it make me feel good if they did.
This was beautifully written. I agree with everything you have said. I agree that they can't retcon Shadowlands (as much of a delight as that would be), but I do wish they would have come out and talked about it: their vision, why it went wrong etc. I think it's maddening that we received what we did. There's just no way this was the product they wanted to deliver or story they wanted to tell. It really annoyed me that they completely pissed over 20+ years of lore, retroactively added this guy who was the biggest villain of all time essentially, and then just expected to us to let this slide because 'Look everyone, Dragon Aspects!'. It's just absurd to me.
when will people FINALLY understand its called plot twist not retcon? let me ask you a simple question: how would YOU write a plot twist into a story.? by telling a lie and then revealing the truth? yeah thats what they did in SL. Stop acting as if everything in the past is gods word. we have an event called "the great ordering of the cosmos". someone wants you to believe in lies and sorry to say but its kinda obvious if you look and think. honestly i think you are wrong with "expand upon Warcraft's lore to prep it for future expansions" because you can see obvious hints of it going back to classic wow. its not "new" the titans do bad shit. we seen it all the time. (alagon? wiping out countless civilications?) you didnt understand what they try to tell you and thats why you mad at retcon even tho this was planned to be a reveal. "finally find out why the systems in our cosmos are so fucked"- the expansion. death and finality have no meaning? RETCON!!11! no... sit down, ask yourself - why would an ORDERED cosmos have a forged Gods of light and why can i teleport and leave a place like shadowlands like it nothing? it means something. SL is here to stay, and fun fact was so obious that people predicted that we live under a Fake Veil in the sky that cloaks the SL as we seen in the launch trailer and the titan lies/pov of history books. i get it. people want to be told a cool sotry and dont want to activly engage with a story. i get it. BUT we live in this story. we are inside the lies and try to unveil them since Vanilla. and before you ask: no its not a retcon that titans are bad- not all titans are bad infact. and remember for next time: WHY?
@@Nagria2112 you're hallucinating. Go back and read my post. I never said anything about the Titans not being potentially bad, you are correct that was hinted at and seeded as far back as Vanilla. My critique was specifically the retconning of the foundational lore of the Burning Legion and the Lich King. The Jailer was not hinted at. The only time the Jailer was even remotely hinted at was Legion, and even then it was clear that they still hadn't solidified their idea of what the threat in the Shadowlands would actually be that Odyn had sacrificed his eye to. It was just kind of a generalized presence. The Creation of the Burning Legion and the Lich King WERE firmly established. There was not a single hint that they were anything different than they had been written before Shadowlands came out. It quite literally wasn't until Shadowlands that they were changed. That isn't a plot twist, that is a blatant retcon, as plot twists typically require prior seeding and foreshadowing that they exist as an idea before they're implemented.
this is the thing that makes me the saddest. wow has always been really ridiculous in terms of story; it's always been convoluted and they just pile on so much because you always have to escalate but shadowlands was so much of them trying to like... simplify the wrong things in the least satisfying way possible. we didn't need to change our understanding of how death works in this world, we didn't need everything connected together via a random guy as this huge mastermind. there's so much stuff where it feels like if they don't just completely ignore xyz from shadowlands and act like it didn't happen i don't know what they're going to be able to do.
If Shadowlands taught me anything as a writer is that writing a story where you go to the afterlife of a long-standing franchise is a herculean task. You're generally better off just not ever physically going there and not going into extreme detail on how it all works.
I couldn't agree more with you. How can you ever create something to satisfy everybody? To write the final word like that is a monumental task! It was incredibly risky and it has ruined a lot of mystique now I think. Regardless who we meet or encounter, whether our allies fall or we vanquish our foes, we know exactly where they are going to go now. Life leads to death, and death now leads to the Shadowlands. I think it's worse when you really look at the gravitas of it all too. What is actually satisfying about going to the Shadowlands? Potentially becoming an abomination in Maldraxxus? Having your memories wiped as a Kyrian? It just sounded awful for everyone! I think we're all familiar with 'sometimes less is more' but pulling the veil back like this and the story they told was incredibly brazen of them.
Wait, wait, wait. The death of Argus was what broke the Arbiter??? Because it wasn't built for titan deaths? Wow good thing no titans had died before, huh. You know, like... ALL OF THEM by the hands of Sargeras, then resurrected by him to try and break their wills, succeeding with Aggramar??? What an absolute mess. I thought I knew everything there was disappointing about Shadowlands, but I learned something new today. Thanks!
@@edd_TV All good, it's a really cool video. It's important to be fair and also bring out the good things in an universally disliked expansion, and there certainly were SOME cool things about it. It's just a shame they had to convolute everything so hard and kill the very concept of death in the setting. There simply cannot be any stakes afterwards, and that's a major problem of fiction to try and grapple with. They should honestly retcon Shadowlands to be a nightmare vision that the Y'shaarj inflicted upon us as he works in tandem with Xal'atath, one so real that everyone believed it and folks like Anduin carry genuine physical scars from something that didn't happen. Alas, they're not going to do that, and the can of worms remains on the table and open.
@@thesunthrone I'm glad you were able to see it that way too! You are absolutely right with this. It stripped so much back and was incredibly damaging to future storylines. Thank you for watching and your kind words!
@@JayR-t8r You can't really nit pick when you tell me lore that was apparently only present in a damage control novel to try to salvage Sylvanas. Nothing in the game has ever shown this, nothing about Argus ever indicated that he is specifically death aligned, and RED is NOT the established color of death magic. He was red because SARGERAS INFUSED HIM WITH HIS POWER. It just doesn't track in any way. How can the Nathrezim change a being's essence so much that suddenly the rules of mortality apply a titan while he's the thing that helps hasten the rebirth of all demons in the Legion? He's already socketed inside a giant system, he's working the magics of the Twisting Nether and pulling all the fel creatures to him, giving them fel to coalesce... and yeah, somehow, actually, he was infused with energies of DEATH and not a single other demon including SARGERAS HIMSELF, IN THE VERY MOMENT HE SUMMONED HIM FORWARD, noticed that? When all demons can LITERALLY SEE MAGIC because that's the very power demon hunters have taken from them? I refuse to believe any this. Blizzard can write it and press it on paper and put it in a glossy hardcover book if they want, it can be put in wikis and it can be told to me in youtube comments, but I'm not reading it. It's all just scrambling post-hoc rationalization to try and fit a triangle shaped peg into a hexagon shaped hole. Yeah it sort of fits, but there's a LOT of empty space and it clearly shows they got it completely wrong. Thanks for the factoid though, really made my day worse to learn of another way Shadowlands existing ruins everything else that came before it. They couldn't even leave bloody Legion alone, had to tarnish that as well. I am honestly livid. Thanks.
Ultimately what it did was ruin the concepts of death and finality. Because of this, nothing will carry any weight to it, any future sacrifices made by characters will feel hollow and have a bare minimum impact if any at all since now we know what death means. Many of these cosmic forces only really work if we cant understand them, it's most of their appeal, they exist beyond human comprehension, so it lets imagination fill in the gaps. Once you remove that veil and turn them into just another villain with defined edges, then your story no longer has legs, which in a nutshell is the problem with WoW's more modern storytelling.
Exactly! It's so grating that we know when we lose any major character 'Oh I wonder where they are going to get sent to in the Shadowlands?' I can't just scrub it from my mind or decanonise it. I think sometimes there are things we just shouldn't explore and it should be left to interpretation. Less is more! Really great comment. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
you are THE perfect example. okay lets examine this. you get told a story. You go looking and find something different. thats called a plottwist and not a Retcon. its called a Plotdevice. To SL: death and finality - stop being mad and think: WHY are the SL the way they are? WHY can you port there and leave again? WHY do we exract anima? why do we judge souls? its a fake system put up to extract power. its clearly the same mechanism they used on Argus with demons. death means nothing because its fake. its literally hidden behind a "fake" sky as revealed by Sylvannas. Cosmic forces: i dont even understand what you mean. we clearly know what their goal is, who has power now and who wants it back. it shows that people cared more about nippel boy having bad dialog then people thinking about the overarching 20 year long story. we have a event in wow thats is literally called "the odering of the Cosmos" where they forged the Naruus btw.... yes maw is awful, yes gameplay had problems, yes Zovaal could have been better but that misses to whole plot of SL.
I've very rarely seen afterlife content done well in a setting. It's too often over explained or made mundane. Ff14 i like because it's simple reincarnation, not too much we know beyond that. Souls die and are reborn perhaps with small bits left over from previous lives. Death stays meaningful, it fits well into the established lore. The other is the ttrpg wraith the oblivion. Awful to play but the world building is phenomenal. You're a ghost of the afterlife, and no one knows what the fuck is going on. It's just chaos and confusion, feels bleak and mysterious, like a proper afterlife.
@@kazsixteen7359 I will say that the stuff they did with FFXIV was masterful, especially in Endwalker in one specific zone! I'll try and refrain from being too spoilery for people! I'll have to check out that Wraith game, that sounds fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
True. I think this part of the story recap may be a bit incorrect. Somebody did comment saying that: Elune didnt allow the burning of the world tree to happen to send souls to her sister. Elune says "In the WAKE of tragedy", meaning following events of tragedy, what Elune did was allow the souls to pass to the Shadowlands instead of holding them in Kalimdor as she usually does when night elves die. I doubt Elune could have stopped the burning/would as we have almost no instances of Elune directly stepping in to stop tragedies.
I still vividly remember the following on the Covenant Ripcord: Alpha/Beta/PTR: "we promise we can balance it, but if we can't there's a ripcord" Live release: "there is not, never was, and never will be a ripcord, also a ripcord is technically impossible to make" Patch 9.2: "we're pulling the ripcord we said didn't exist and couldn't be made, see we're listening to player feedback (that was overwhelmingly given by every single player in all Alpha, Beta, and PTR cycles, and in every single patch from 9.0.0 on)"
I remember it too. God, this comment is like a time machine for me. This was the final straw for me in terms of feedback I think. At least in this sort of 'era' of WoW. I know they are doing a lot better now, but it was honestly ridiculous listening to Ion and J.Allen Brack constantly coming out with 'We hear you.' because they clearly didn't! They chose to do whatever they wanted and made us play the game their way, and NO GAME should ever do that! They have themselves to blame for that and I really have no sympathy for them. I think I'm tough but fair on that. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
I think my biggest problem with the shadowlands is the fact that they explained how death works. This makes no sense to me. From this point onwards every villain we kill will just go to the shadowlands. He even could use one of our portals to return. Its also weird from a powerscaling point. We killed beings who work for death itself. And now we are fighting against wolf's again xD. The only thing which is equally bad in my book is the fact that warlords of draenor opened the door for time travel and alter alternate realities.
It's such an important thing to focus on. You're right. No matter which ally falls, no matter which enemy we vanquish, we know exactly where they are going. If we lose someone, we can just pop over to the Shadowlands and see where Pelegos has put them. It was just such a risky idea to explore death and the afterlife. I do agree with you on WoD. Timey-wimey stuff never sits well with me, but to play devil's advocate a little bit....WoD did give us Gul'dan and in turn, Legion. I think Legion was AMAZING but it paved an incredibly cruel road for WoW to walk. Between Legion-Shadowlands we have seen some of the ugliest WoW has ever been, and I'm sadly cognizant enough to know that Legion is responsible for it. You're absolutely right on both counts though! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings.
@@edd_TV Sry for the late replay. I think we could have had Legion without WoD and the story would be tighter. Actually, WoD ruined the Story in a sense. WoD established that the Twisting Nether exists outside of Time and Dimensions. But i never understood why the Burning Legion wants to invade our Azeroth. They could just pick an Azeroth where the heroes are not present, capture the world soul or whatever and portal it over to wherever they need it. After WoD they had infinite Azeroths to invade. But let's forget WoD for a second. The burning Legion was always set up in order to return one day. We only stopped Kil Jaeden from Traveling through the Sunwell. It was always clear that he would return one day. So we don't need WoD to get the attention of the Burning Legion. And the Circle of Shadows or whatever the name of the black temple faction was, is still active. They could have gathered Gul Dans Skull and resurrected him, or they could fall to its whispers. Ok the WoD Gul Dan is more of a mix between Ner Zul and Gul Dan but they could have made a kick ass Orc without going to alternate Draenor. I still like WoD because it had super cool raids. But i really didn't like the story.
@@Trashloot Some interesting choices for sure. I feel weird about WoD. I remember it having some kickass cutscenes but the narrative was very odd, and I just can't ever get behind something like time travel. It's just a bad idea I think. I agree though, the WoD raids were great!
I know it's a faux-paux, but I sincerely believe that what Shadowlands did to Warcraft was so bad, narratively and lore-wise, that literally the best thing they could do was to retcon is as some sort of collective fever dream. Any real consequences are a result of the shrooms. Just rip off the band-aid, There's simply no defending it.
That's honestly the dream, isn't it? (no pun intended) If we had just woken up and none of it was real, I think we would all feel better for it. Sure it's a cop out and it would be really cheap and lazy but given the irreparable damage Shadowlands has caused, I think we'd happily let it slide!
Let's not forget that the rather coherent and comprehensible story you resumed at the start was ABSOLUTELY NOT delivered in that state throughout the expansion. Almost ALL of what makes up the Jailor's 'personality,' his plans, his motivations, Sylvanas' motivations and part in all this, as well as the motivation behind most of BFA's story was ENTIRELY missing for most of Shadowlands' run time and instead delivered WAY too late into the expansion through a freaking BOOK. The vast majority of Shadowlands' narrative was incredibly tedious to even track, let alone comprehend, as it was delivered in agonizingly small pieces, out of context for most of it, and through some of the worst writing and in-game delivery they've ever produced. And despite having it put into chronological order, from a birds eye view, in as coherent and linear a fashion as possible, it's still an abysmal story with awful world building, convoluted plot points, catastrophic pacing and a criminal absence of any form of cool, fun, or excitement.
I'm someone who followed the lore of the franchise religiously ever since felling admiral Proudmoore with Rexxar's axe in WC3. The reddit post Edd used is literally the only reason I was able to make sense of the whole expansion's plot. THAT'S IT.
My biggest gripe with shadowlands was that none of the zones were connected, except the Maw and Korthia. Even as a mage who could teleport back to oribos whenever i wanted it felt like it took forever to get around the expansion
That's exactly why I wanted to mention the zones for this video! It just felt so strange to me. It made Shadowlands feel like a theme park. I really love both Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor because they feel like actual continents to traverse. Oribos was just an airport in that sense. I think they really wanted to try something new, but it didn't work for me at all.
It probably wouldn't fix every problem with Shadowlands, but if it was Ner'zul instead of The Jailer, we would have probably accepted the Shadowlands story more easily and readily.
I think so too. I don't think anything could have saved it, but if it was a character we were more familiar with then I think we may have been more forgiving.
Shadowlands was a straight up disrespect to the all established and beloved lore. The writers had 0 respect to what was before them. That's what made me angry.
I've felt this anger twice: once was with Warcraft and the other Star Wars. It just felt like the people with the power had absolutely no idea what they were doing, or like you said just a complete disregard to the lore. We left Shadowlands with less than when we entered it. There was zero pay off and so much destroyed in its wake.
I'm not even a meta player, but when you have two identical toons and one is doing substantially more DPS, at a lower ilvl, simply because of the covenant, it's hard to argue that there isn't a problem with the system. Even just playing in the world was less fun if you were in the wrong covenant.
Agreed. I don't play meta either. It's just completely unfair. And why we should all be forced into the same thing? We're talking about meaningful choice, but the meaningful choice comes down to one question: 'how much DPS would you like to do?' It was just such a weird way to approach a system like this.
Almost everyone. When one covenant is leagues better for your class than the others you notice. Power should have never been tied to covenants and it should have all been pets and toys and mounts and cosmetics much like how “covenants” work now.
I remember early in SL before Korthia, that my speculation was that the Jailer was desperate for anima because a soul had risen in rebellion against him and he was losing control of the maw. Denathrius sent him the anima stores of Revendryth but it was not enough. My early SL headcanon was Arthas was sent to the maw but his power was still so great, not even hell could contain him. The jailer was proud and refused to admit to all he was losing control but Denathrius was a close friend and he could tell him in secret. And it even would have put a new spin on Sylvanas... the Jailer reached out to Syl asking for her help which is why she shattered the helm (that could have still been a source of power Arthas was drawing upon even from the depths of Torghast.
I think it's fascinating that fans can conjure up better narratives than what we actually got. (It's also really sad because it shows their incompetence, but I think it's amazing how passionate and clever fans can be) I love the sound of this. I mean the bar is so low that most things would be considered better, right? But I think this sounds awesome. Thank you for sharing!
People usually complain about wow not being edgy enough. But truth be told, whenever wow does go into edge or darkness. It always feels forced. The maw felt like the full combination of forced. sure bad things happen but i never felt it. Anduin commited horrible acts but i never saw it.
That's so true. We've lived in a World of Warcraft for ages now where they tell us and not show us. ''Show, don't tell' is something they have struggled with for a long time now.
I think Baine must be the most slept on WoW character of all time. He really needs to be shown some love! I know they did something with him in Dragonflight in the Ohn'ahran Plains, but he really needs to be in the spotlight for something. Why didn't he get a reunion with Cairne?!
Still can't forgive Blizzard for setting up a perfect Arthas return and completely wasting him. He should have charged in with us to take out the Jailor.
I couldn't trust them with anything Arthas related. I didn't know what I wanted with him. I was scared at any prospect of seeing him again because I didn't think they would be able to do him justice.
@edd_TV who know. Maybe with Metzen back they can bring him back in some way. But i get that Anduin is now currently doing what Arthas redemption arch would have been. So hopefully they do Anduin right.
@@Nick-4K Somebody did comment saying that Danuser was quoted saying that if you 'die' in the Shadowlands then you are gone for good, so I do think Arthas, Garrosh and the Jailer are all finished. I do think Anduin is the modern day Arthas for the audience, but he's so much more polarising. Everybody loved Arthas. I think they want to move away from him, but come the finale of the Worldsoul Saga and of course going back to Northrend for The Last Titan, we are surely going to get some references to him, the Lich King and Icecrown! I just hope whatever happens it works out. I do think you're right about Metzen being back in the saddle. I know he's not perfect, but it can only be a good thing considering what we have been through in recent years.
@@LarvaS-hj1eq True, and I don't get the idea of Arthas turning into a redeemed hero SL. Arthas was stuck in his ways... All he did was his will, Zovaal even said Arthas gave him the finger trying to pull his strings.
please god stop asking for this type of thing. this is why every big budget movie is a remake or franchise, this is why stories never have good conclusions, this is why characters are all garbage this is why retconning is just expected. You cannot make a good character arc if the character is never allowed to be done, you're forcing creatives to create the trash you're complaining about.
one thing that confuses me is that the helm being destroyed shatters the sky and you even state that when a relic of the shadowlands is destroyed the energy goes back but why did that then not happen when frostmourne was destroyed during ICC ? overall shadowlands could have been great if it was instead of "the realm of death" had just been another world we traveled to.
That is a great observation! I wish I had an answer for you. I doubt Blizzard do either. I agree. I think the potential and ingredients were there for something very cool, but it's just a realm of nothingness and irrelevancy now. I doubt it will ever be referenced again.
Shadowlands was the expansion of just wasting your time for no reason (no mount in the maw, time gating everything, CONDUIT ENERGY, super long grinds, rare spawns with hour+ respawns that now die instantly also have a 1% drop chance on mounts, etc.)
My brother quit WoW during WoD and I still remember him deciding to try WoW again and it just had to be when Shadowlands came out lol. Four years later at the start of War Within did I manage to convince him to try WoW a second time and we've been having much more fun nowadays, currently progressing heroic Nerubar Palace and doing delves together haha
Oh man, that's so unfortunate. I don't begrudge players quitting in WoD because there really was nothing going on. It was a really lonely time, but coming back for Shadowlands couldn't have been more unlucky! I don't think any of us could have known how bad it was going to be though. That's really great that he has managed to reconnect with WoW in TWW again and you're having a blast together now! Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
that's crazy considering TWW is even worse. I guess since you don't do any pushing content, or crafting you're probably just enjoying the visuals. But if you're not doing anything of importance, SL can be just as enjoyable, so you both probably just got on a bandwagon /shrug
@BusJustice "pushing content" ya mean sitting on your ass in Dornagol being declined for keys for half hour, finally getting into a +10 key, for only to go south because people can't stack up or use cc's, or interrupts and falls all part before or after the first boss - and all you wonder to yourself is "how did these people even get their 2.5k rating?". There's more to TWW that so far I've liked, the lore, and renown. Especially that renown is account wide and each of your other characters contribute to it.
@@RandoCDN87 haha, yea- back before you were playing, renown was given for doing well in the dungeons, 2 birds 1 stone. Back when the game was good in SL. But now, since it's separate, like I described, you just confirmed people don't learn or push, they just "grind renown" in world content where it doesn't matter if you virtually afk, blizz gives you stuff. Then when you're bored of doing virtually nothing, you do more virtual nothing on an alternate character I guess? Fascinating. So of course you're not interested in learning the dungeons. and pretend the lore is good even though all Skardyn were destroyed before TWW, and Baelgrim dies in the campaign. The xpac is a huge stinker.
Reminder: Sylvanas, Frostmourne, and the Helm were ALL retconned because of this expansion. Sylvanas's character was COMPLETELY ruined because of this. You CAN'T tell me that Sylvanas would willing serve the Jailor, committing genocide for the man, and forcing Anduin to ALSO SERVE the Jailor. Sylvanas was born from the genocide against her people that led to her being forced to serve Arthas. Shadowlands had god awful writing that butchered one of the best characters because Danuser and the other writers failure. There are ways to 'fix' Shadowlands's story, but virtually all methods of this still have Sylvanas's character ruined due to Blizzard forcing her drastic shift since Legion. She was a character that lived and died for the Forsake, in Cata she even told Garrosh that she serves the Horde and took the Val'kyr to ensure the Forsaken wouldn't 'run out' since they can't reproduce. I think the Jailor COULD have been good, but they should have tied him to the helm in a different manner. Perhaps having him be the catalyst for it, forged for Kil'jaeden along with Frostmourne in an attempt to have Sargares aid him in escaping The Maw only to be betrayed once the artifacts were made. This could have led to him seeing through the helm and Frostmourne, watching the world shift and witnessing the Legion's fall, leading to Argus dying being a happy coincidence that then led to him getting one last chance to truly break free. With that, have everything just be him and maybe have him attempt to take control of Bolvar and the entire Death Knight order, only to fail with Bolvar shattering the helm HIMSELF. There are ways to write a 'good' Shadowslands, but the writers failed YEARS of actually good writing. The downfall of WoW Lore truly started in Legion. Cataclysm was a lack-luster final raid, MoP had great story and was only hated because 'EW PANDAS!', WoD was great and primarily hated because of Garrisons and people JUST seeing 'EW TIMETRAVEL!' in an expansion with an interesting twist on characters from old with one of the BEST raids in history, but Legion? Legion killed off Ysera in an extremely random way, it push Sylvanas to take the first true act that showed her character being twisted via attacking the Val'kyr Maiden, and the iconic 'YOU GET AN ASHBRINGER, YOU GET AN ASHBRINGER, YOU ALL GET AN ASHBRINGER!' push for your character being the chosen one. We aren't a 'band of heroes,' we are a singular 'chosen one'.
Let it all out, my friend. I feel it too. I honestly feel like this video was a public airing of very private pain. I have tried to say nice things where I can, but I cannot defend anything regarding the narrative. Just nothing. You are absolutely right with what you have been saying. I do think people line to hone in on areas to attack with WoW and their expansions. Everything has a beacon or landmark. WoD was garrisons BFA was azerite Shadowlands..well take your pick really! I do feel that Legion-Shadowlands was an immensely difficult road for us to walk. Legion is one of my favourite expansions, if it isn't my favourite it's second to TBC but I do acknowledge that Legion absolutely had its faults. As a paladin main, I did not enjoy having the Ashbringer at all. It felt wrong. I felt similar about shaman's with Doomhammer, and look at the state of Thrall now. I really appreciate your passion. I'm absolutely on board with your takes. I'm sorry if this video dug up a lot of bad feelings for you, but I'm glad you shared them with me. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and thanks for watching!
Danuser and rest of the writing team should've never been writers in the first place. It's baffling how much the stupid same shit is still going on in the lore.
It's a permanent stain now. No matter what characters or villains we meet and vanquish, we know exactly where they are going. We might never see or hear anything about the Shadowlands again, but we know that's the final destination. Exploring death and the afterlife was such a crazy risk.
@edd_TV Exactly and the current story isnt much better either. Blizzard is dead all hail new blizzard but im not the target audience anymore. First expansion i refunded after 1 day
@@edd_TV Why story isnt better or why i refunded? 1) It's still written like HR is in the same room. All old characters are turned into neutered versions of themselves (khadgar is in wheelchair now). 2) I felt like i've seen so much bad storytelling with years of feedback going to deaf ears. Gameplay is still good as always, but the magic is gone if you know what i mean. It's not made for me, a core gamer and Warcraft fan anymore and i dont think they understand and even hate the old lore.
@@JussiMustola90 I'm sorry to hear that man, but I resonate with your words a lot. I think I felt this way about Dragonflight. You're absolutely right that the gameplay of WoW is still great, its WoW's biggest strength no doubt! But Dragonflight narratively just felt so strange to me. It didn't feel like Warcraft. I think you have touched on something really important, and I have had similar opinions in the past. Sometimes I do think they strongly dislike elements of the past, Arthas is a big example. I think Arthas is the gold standard of WoW but he isn't THEIR character, if you get what I mean? And of course he's so beloved and talked about, and I think that bothers them. Because they know they won't ever be able to create a character like him. It's just my personal opinion of course, but that's the impression I get
It's all just so desperately sad. Even the narrative for Dragonflight couldn't help exonerate him. That was his true test, to have something from start to finish. I think praising Game of Thrones Season 8 really set the tone a lot, and I don't like to reference it because it's been done to death, but it's a pretty damning phrase and it really did define his tenure I think.
He destroyed so much lore-wise it's almost difficult to believe. Like, WoW's lore should be their crown jewel, so many years of development, in-game and in books, and I'm pretty sure it even has its financial value for the company, didn't anyone think for a second that "hey, maybe we shouldn't dismantle everything, destroying characters and past and possible future narrative threads, especially since y' know, it doesn't seem to be particularly popular with our audience"? It's kinda the reason I wonder sometimes if Danuser just became the scapegoat, as in, how could one person do so much damage without the support of other higher ups?
Danuser is a no talent hack. Even the good things that happened while he was there, like Dragonflight 10.0 (he left after that and wasn't involved beyond 10.0), I don't think was him, I think that was him taking credit for someone else's ideas. The only thing Danuser was interested in was banging Sylvanas. He proudly claimed to have a body pillow, and wrote a "story" that retconned Nathanos into his self insert so he could ship himself with her.
I'd say Metzen wasn't much better, maybe they were able to make the story entertaining, but that's pretty much it. Oh, and he was an amazing voice for Varian, Thrall and Vol'jin, almost forgot that. 😅
@@jtabox And how is that any different from what they've been doing all this time? Maybe it was more condensed in SL, and so what? Do you have the slightest idea just how many retcons, inconsistencies and other nonsensical mistakes were made even before Cataclysm? Danuser wasn't the one who messed up Garrosh's character, made Thrall act out of character or killed Cairne off-screen in a novel. Warcraft 3 was a great starting point to develop a story, but very little of that potential was ever fulfilled.
Torghast is a perfect example I think of Blizzard's flawed scorched earth philosophy when it comes to new mechanics/content, where they have a great idea but if it underperforms they trash it entirely. Personally I would've loved Torghast if it was a route to get gear, cosmetics, and complete challenges. Unfortunately we will probably never get anything like it again because Blizzard deemed it a failure. Delves may be considered a spiritual successor but it's not even close to the cool things and mechanics you could run into in Torghast. It's a shame to see so much hard work and creativity go to complete waste every expansion because Blizzard is unwilling to revise it. It's like "Hey I built a new car!" "Why did you give it 5 wheels? That sucks!" "Damn, nothing we can do but drive it into the ocean then."
Well said. They are unapologetically absolute with their content preservation. I can't speak on Delves sadly as I haven't purchased TWW yet, but I am planning on getting stuck into it soon and I think I'll make a video sharing my thoughts on it; the narrative, delves and such! I think you have summed up their outlook on content so perfectly with that. I'm very much of the mindset of: 'if it's going to take a while that's fine, just complete it!'. We need to see the polished and finished article, not something that will get chopped and changed or completely revised in a future patch. We need consistency and a real vision. I'm very interested in Delves but I've heard bad things about them.
When you consider the amount of tech that had to be developed to make Torghast work.... and maybe 2% of that has carried forward to other expansions. What a waste. It was Borrowed Power: the Dungeon within Borrowed Power: the Expansion, but it had potential. Unfortunately it was a place that felt like it didn't want you there... set within another place you were actively discouraged from being in. They tried to save it with changes, steering various gamplay types toward Torghast... it wasn't always terrible... but it wasn't anywhere near as cool as it could have been.
@@basicfacekick I agree and I'm glad you were able to see the potential it had, rather than just looking at the negatives. I didn't want to make this video just to shit all over it, it's important to be objective so I really appreciate you seeing it that way! You're absolutely right. Why do they make these things just to throw them in the bin? I can't speak for Delves and I'm sure it draws on Torghast a bit, but Torghast is something that frankly should still exist today. It should have events and different themes every week. It's by far and away the most misused and disappointing feature they have ever attempted. I hope they can do it justice someday because the idea is very cool! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
@@edd_TVTrolls are purely cosmetical now apart from the Zandalari Rokhan literally didn't appear in Shadowlands or any of the cinematics, despite him being the chief of the Darkspear #vengeanceforzuljin
@@The-jy3yq We are LONG overdue some sort of Troll themed patch I think! I don't recall Rokhan being hugely important in BFA either, or maybe I'm wrong? I know he was one of the bosses for the Warfronts. There is much to be desired with a lot of these characters, for sure!
Shadowlands was the only expansions that took away more than it gave lore-wise. It ruined a lot of the lore mystique by fleshing out a mostly uninspiring and limited afterlife, retconned and annihilated the Lich King/arthas as a puppet, and gave us a terrible derivative villain who was retconned as being bigger than Sargeras or the Titans.
@ I almost said the same, it definitely was unforgivable. The Lich King was and is the crowning piece of lore for most WoW lovers. It’s almost like Shadowlands was written by someone who had no experience at all.
@@Forge17 I think you could even carry those thoughts into Dragonflight. I was more of a spectator than a participator for Dragonflight, but even keeping up with the story in the background, it did often feel at times that the people writing the characters aren't familiar with them. It's almost like the ship of Theseus I think. So many people have been replaced and now we're at a point where it's still Blizzard, but it's not THE Blizzard, because the old guard have moved on. (Some rightly needed to be moved on) The people working on the characters aren't the people who created them, outside of people like Metzen of course. And that has really showed at times I think. Of course nobody lives forever and the show has to go on, but I can only really compare Shadowlands to the Star Wars sequels. I think there was a lot of confusion and a real lack of education and understanding with the characters. The Lich King is an icon. For a lot of people, he is Warcraft! And this was the biggest slap in the face ever.
The disrespect paid to Arthas and the Lich King lore as a whole checked me out of the story going forward. Blizzard can try as hard as they want to make better stories going forward, but to me that means nothing when they left what I loved most about the series in ruins. I'm just here for the gameplay loop, and to replay through the Legion DK order hall campaign to relive my favorite times.
@@Malacine I feel the same. I still haven't quite shaken that off, and I fear I never will. I tried to pay attention to Dragonflight but it just didn't grip me at all. I think the gameplay will always be he most important aspect to the majority of the player base, but it was devastating for lovers of the lore and story.
My greatest dislike for Shadowlands is how they character assassinated all the characters especially Uther who went from moving on from his anger of Arthas to choosing to remember him as someone who loved his people in "The Lightbringer's Redemption" to someone who was so vengeful and filled with rage that he threw Arthas in the Maw. As far as I'm concerned everything after Legion is fanfiction with the Blizzard label on it.
''Remember Arthas, we are Paladins. Vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do, if we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, we will become as vile as the orcs." Such a great line from Warcraft III! I do think they tried to counter this with the whole 'Not vengeance, justice' line,. but you are right. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Few things: Don’t forget what Danuser said “once you die in the Shadowlands, that’s it that’s the end.” So Arthas, Garrosh, The Jailer they’re all gone forever. Cross-faction came into the game. And while that is a good thing to play with people it ultimately has killed one of the pillars of WoW: the faction war and political subtext. Also, grateful offerings should be removed from the game. They don’t make sense even now.
Interesting quote from Danuser. I didn't catch that! I do wonder if they will ever try and incorporate any of the story of Shadowlands into the modern game. Like if Khadgar did die and went into the Shadowlands, we could go back there and talk to him for whatever reason, something like that. I don't think they should, I think it would be damaging for the story and game to bring back anything Shadowlands, but it does make you think. I LOVE that you mentioned cross faction, I've talked about this in another video mine titled 'The Mourned Identity' if you're interested in checking that out. I talk about how drastically WoW has changed narratively but also identity wise too with cross-realm, cross faction, sharding etc. Really good point!
@@edd_TVUltimately, that part of the lore kind of makes death a bit lacking. It’s kind of like how Dragonball has the dragon balls to revive people. It removes the weight of death that made Varian’s sacrifice so meaningful😢 Shadowlands was my first real expansion and while I am fond of it, it did not do the characters justice. thanks for this video and I’ll definitely check that other one out.
It's wild that Danuser made that quote of "you die in Shadowlands you die fr fr" and then have Maldraxxus, the afterlife whose whole point is "when you die in it, you just get recycled into a new skeleton golem thing and keep going". Like, that's the whole point of the DEATH SKULL COLLOSEUM in the middle of it! Man's so cooked he can't even keep his own expansion's lore straight at baseline level.
stop it, get some help. the whole faction war was played out by mop. the political manuevering is fine, maybe a rogue element trying to reignite conflict but seriously, how many times has the faction war just suddenly vanished because new bad guy shows up. More times than the average person has fingers. its so bad its become a meme like "its merely a setback".
I can't believe you went into so much detail and didn't even mention the level squish and new starter experience in Exile's Reach! Definitely made levelling alts much easier, though I fear it also made the new player experience more disjointed than ever. Either way, it was the reason I reinstalled retail for the first time since Cataclysm, because I was curious about the levelling changes. I then ended up playing Shadowlands proper on a very casual level, without really interacting with the endgame much. My husband and I had a good time duoing the Maw and Torghast on weekends, and to be honest I didn't get why people felt quite so salty about the expansion. I was primarily a Classic player and my attitude was kind of: "Isn't this just what retail is, a bit of superficial fun on the weekend and not much more?" And then Dragonflight came out and was SO much better and I started to see why people had been disappointed in Shadowlands, haha. I also really liked your story recap at the start. It actually makes the story sound pretty OK, but I swear most of that was not explained very well in the game, or at least in such a disjointed manner that it was hard to follow and care about all the details...
Oh I wanted to, believe me! I had to cut two chapters because I was so worried about this videos length. It's my biggest project so far. I wanted to dedicate a section to 'Returning Characters' and also dive into the levelling changes with the Threads of Fate and so on! You're absolutely right about Exile's Reach! It's something I reference in my other videos, but in hindsight it was probably worth of the extra mile of inclusion. It did a lot for newcomers! Thank you for mentioning it! I can't take credit for the story recap as it's from Reddit, but I'm really glad to hear you liked it! Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
@@edd_TVthe story recap was very well done, tho i also understood the story of Kingdom Hearts; so i am kinda resistant to what people call convoluted i guess. Very enjoyable great video, stopped after Legion and this was a splendit deep-dive to catch up with this bottom tier era of WoW.
@@DjTrustNo.1 Thank you so much my friend. I can't take credit for the story recap, I was simply reading a post from Reddit! I really appreciate your kind words. Thank you for taking the time to watch! I really appreciate it.
After all the crap SL through out, the final nail in the coffin was Sludgefist. I had enough of being punished for another player's stupidity in raids. And you're right, chainlink was an easy mechanic, unless you're linked to some spaz that can't stop moving around when there's nothing to dodge. I thought about coming back, then I saw that Arthas was reduced to a 35 anima drop and I was immediately glad I stopped giving Blizzard my money.
Ah man, I'm so sorry to hear you say that! I loved that fight so much, but you are right. When it was really time to lock in and people were screwing up, it did get grating. I can see where you're coming from with this. It was very punishing. Something that always bothered me in WoW is how players constantly 'wasda' in combat, like why?! Just stay still and press your buttons! I've never understood why so many do that. It seems like a very weird way to stay adrenalised or engaged, lol. I'm sorry to hear you completely checked out, and I'm similar. I did play Dragonflight season 1 but not for very long. I don't have any friends who play WoW anymore so it was really lonely for me. I also think I was still suffering from the Shadowlands hangover a lot. There was a lot of aches and pains that still haven't healed. I didn't participate in The War Within pre-patch and I still haven't bought it. It's the first time I never pre-ordered an expansion, so it says a lot I think. I did subscribe for the 20th Anniversary, I couldn't resist not grabbing the Judgement set, but your feelings are very valid. Thank you for taking the time to watch the video and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate that.
I hated Shadowlands because it ruined any idea of the afterlife. It didn't emphasize enough that there are other afterlives (missed opportunity to show actually lore established afterlives like the eternal goblin beach party), it shoehorned in a big bad that has never existed before and there nobody cared about him. It screwed over established lore and characters, and the maw and no flying between zones was just awful. I wish they had just ended the addon with "you wake up after a long slumber. It has all been a nightmare."
I completely agree. It felt like there was nothing good to take away from this expansion. It was just torching everything in sight, and pulling back the veil with the afterlife was just so risky. I think Blizzard tried two herculean tasks with both time travel in WoD and then the afterlife with Shadowlands. It's an impossible job to please everybody when you're writing narratives like this I think. I'm with you on that. I really wanted some sort of crazy N'Zoth fever dream. The fact all of this just happens and then we look the other way because it's time for the Dragon Aspects and the Dragon Isles was really annoying, because Shadowlands is a permanent stain on the legacy and lore of WoW now. Like you say it's canon now in that sense. Life leads to death and death now leads to the Shadowlands and it'll always be that way. It's just a real shame how poor everything was executed. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
I do think trying to shirk the blame from Sylvanas was a really really bad move. Acting like she is totally blameless and it was somebody else and not really 'her' has just damaged her character and actions immensely. I didn't want the Arthas redemption personally but it would have been interesting to see something with him, perhaps conversations with Jaina and Uther etc. The Sylvanas stuff is absolutely mindboggling to me. I don't think they had any idea what they were doing anymore and were just too scared to kill her off.
It wasn't bad, it was fucking apocalyptic, the concept was cool and they fucked it up so badly, how could they be planting the seeds for this since BfA and still manage to make it that unequivocally shit? They took an expansion about the afterlife and cool necromancers, fallen angels, vampires (and bioluminescent frogs) and somehow made it lame as fuck, not to mention the massive content drought the dungeons were pretty cool, though, necrotic wake and plaguefall are my all-time favorites, the sire Denathrius boss fight was pretty sweet too.
it was the fact we lost so much in BFA too. Like what was all of this for? Like we sacrificed two fantastic and very much anticipated antagonists in Azshara and N'Zoth for this. We could have had both Nazjatar and Ny'alotha as continents for their own expansion. Instead they were kicked to the curb and this was the grand finale. It was unacceptable. I definitely agree with you on both the dungeons and Denathrus, but the pay off overall was non existent and the hurt still hasn't gone away.
Shadowlands felt very out of character for many old time WoW players. Idk it just felt wrong seeing certain classes yield Covenant Spells that wouldn't make sense in the original lore.
That's a great point! It stripped back a lot of identity with classes, which had been happening long before Shadowlands to be fair but this really didn't help.
@@edd_TV Shadowlands increased class identity by reducing spec identity, because Asmongold kept crying about it. Which was a huge mistake, in my opinion. Having only one rogue spec have Poisons made Poisons feel more special.
@@edd_TV Yeah. There was so much existing rich lore they could've used for new expansions. Instead, they opted for the oversused trope of creating some new big bad guy (who we've never heard of) pulling the strings all along. It feels lazy and unsatisfying...
tbh maldraxxus might be my fav shadowlands zone mostly for the color palette. first impressions are that it's just a zone full of ugly gross dead stuff, but the artists were so so careful with lighting and color throughout the zone that it stands out to me. it's hard to make "zombie hell" look beautiful and yet the art team did it, mad respect
Yeah I feel bad that it didn't resonate well with me or I didn't have much to say on the zone, because they definitely kicked ass with it! Thank you for sharing your thoughts on Maldraxxus!
I've just started playing SL as a lvl 80 achievement hunter/collector. I don't care about the lore. However from my perspective all four original zones are beautiful for different reasons. Being able to fly straight away and aerial each zone. You can tell a lot of work went into building each area. It's a shame for those that followed the story that it didn't resonate the same
Really?! I haven't been back there since Shadowlands. Honestly I shouldn't be surprised! They don't give a toss about anything that's come and gone. All they care about is what's current and what's coming next. We didn't get a skip for Siege of Orgrimmar for God knows how long! (I know this is quite a niche example and not everybody cares about mount farming and stuff, but I hope you see where I'm coming from with this example)
@ I’m saying why should I have to complete layer 1-11 when I could easily jump straight to 12 or 16 to get the achievements. I guess that is their reasoning the investment of time?
@@josephsaric401It's very strange having to complete 1-11 if it doesn't offer anything. It is just a waste of time, yeah. A means to an end. I feel like if they aren't prepared to preserve Torghast then they should just strip it down and allow players to do whatever they want with it. Restrictions make no sense now.
Usually when the players hate something, it's not that bad. Shadowlands is the exception. It's so, so, so, so bad. It's worse than WoD which was abandoned after launch. It makes a mediocre FF14 Dawntrail look like a masterpiece. It's fucking shit.
I do really try and look for the positives and solutions if I can, but it really is indefensible as far as the narrative goes. I can understand what they tried to do with the systems and features but a failure to listen, they were their own worst enemy. Haha, one of my friends said to me a few weeks ago 'Who is worse? The Jailer or Wuk Lamat?' I had to answer the jailer of course, but Dawntrail is definitely very polarising too. I have plans for a Dawntrail video down the road!
@@edd_TV MY brother in christ, i'm almost done watching your whole video, and it couldn't be more obvious to me that you're a quiet lover of shadowlands. embrace it homie! i didnt play it, but aesthetically it looks pretty.
@@proofofmyexistenceI don't play WoW anymore and Shadowlands is largely responsible as to why. Just because I have the ability to praise certain elements of the game doesn't make me a 'lover' of it. Some of the zones were very nice, yeah.
"If players hate something, it's not that bad" is exactly the kind of mentality that brought us Shadowlands. If you are not listening to the players, who are you listening to, who are you making the content for ? If the vast majority of people hate it, then it's bad, that's it.
A thing often forgotten is that the reason Sylvanas went nuts in BFA/SL was because the alternative was Jaina. If she hadn't, Jaina would've gone mad with hatred and gone full Garrosh. There are remnants of that version of her in the beta of BFA.
I don’t care how much setup they gave it makes literally zero sense for sylvanas to be able to beat bolvar (lich king). She used to be such a cool character before BFA now she’s just been turned into an annoying girlboss character. Also why would they let her go at the end tyrande had every right to kill her.
I think if she was going to die, it had to be at Sanctum. I think they wer too scared to kill her off. She is very important to the franchise, but she's now one of the most hated characters so it's very difficult to answer why they let her live. It's impossible to predict if her return will be met well either.
To be honest I feel like Castle Nathria was one of the best raids they've done in a while the mythic progression felt so good that tier and I just feel like Shadowlands overall was a huge wasted potential along with WoD and BFA :(
I really liked it too. I think if I wanted to hold it in the same breath as something for progression personally I think I might compare it to The Nighthold. I really enjoyed progressing both of those. The potential Shadowlands had was genuinely huge. It just felt like half of a vision. There is no way what they gave us is what Shadowlands was supposed to be. This was a desperate attempt and throwing things together and seeing what would stick. I don't doubt the pandemic played a role in some of this but we can't put it solely on that - other games continued to deliver. You're absolutely right about both WoD and BFA too. Both had tremendous potential. I always wonder what WoD could have been. And BFA just had too many cooks in the kitchen. BFA was telling so many different stories at the same time. We had two fantastic anticipated antagonists in Azshara and N'Zoth and both were done dirty in my opinion. Places like Nazjatar and Ny'alotha are continent worthy for their own expansions!
I started playing WoW mid-Legion. That gave me a wonderful impression of the game and I got hooked. I stayed up for the global launch of BfA and even killed Anduin half an hour before launch, it was absolute hype time. I was very excited being able to experience my first expansion launch, only to be hit with BfA. Once the novelty of a new expansion died down, I started to feel bored but continued on until the launch of SL. Again, I was excited, but it felt like being shoved down the stairs a second time. Ever since, I haven‘t been excited for any expansion and have always waited a few weeks after launch to play, because there‘s this voice in my head telling me I‘ll just get burned by my excitement anyway.
I don't blame you. I can't speak highly enough of Legion. Honestly I adored it. Everyday felt like a privilege playing that expansion. I know some say they miss it and didn't appreciate it enough, but I did. I loved every single day of it. It's the only expansion where I never unsubbed! Killing Anduin before launch is very hype, hahaha. It really sucks how it all came crashing down for you. I can relate of course, but I never expected it. Not off the back of how good Legion was. I was like 'This is it, this is the modern golden era of WoW', and then like you say.....we got BFA. By the time Shadowlands rolled around I didn't really know anymore. I wanted to be excited, but I was also pretty exhausted and annoyed with the narrative of BFA, but I was willing to give them a shot because it's Blizzard and it's Warcraft! Similarly to you, I was never excited for anything afterwards. I bought Dragonflight and I lasted 2 months maybe. I want to get excited for the Worldsoul Saga, I really do. I just don't trust them anymore. Shadowlands destroyed what little faith I had left in them, and whilst they might be taking positive steps with Dragonflight and maybe even TWW, I'm just scared I'll be disappointed and then have to admit to myself "This is the end of the road I guess". I hope you find enjoyment in it again someday. I love WoW and I want it to be the best it can possibly be. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and thank you for watching!
A lot of people might want to comment 'We didn't need a video for this, we all know Shadowlands is bad!', and that's a fair comment to make. However I think it's important we try to remove emotion and be able to revisit these topics and try to be fair and look at the good (what little there may have been) and the bad. Retrospection is important. These videos are also for people who perhaps quit or didn't play a certain expansion. I'll give my take on the expansions and hopefully you will give me yours! Whether you agree or disagree, I'm always happy to engage and have conversations about the games we love! So what was your favourite/worst thing about Shadowlands?
Honestly, maybe it was SL was the first time I actually raided, but I enjoyed the raids. Sadly I didn’t do Nathria until it came back into the raid rotation in the final season, but yeah, I thought they were all enjoyable. The dungeons were also okay. I’m not the biggest M+ player, but I enjoyed…most of them (didn’t realise like Tazavesh that much, and I hated both of the Maldraxxus dungeons).
@@silverwolflucky I think there were elements of all the raids I enjoyed too, but Nathria was head and shoulders above everything else for me. I thought they did a really great job with it. It's great that you had a chance to do it via Fated at the end! Theatre of Pain definitely had its challenges for me as a healer but I surprisingly got on with Plaguefall well! I only ran Tazavesh maybe 2 or 3 times because I wasn't playing regularly. I didn't bother running Mythic+ when it was in the rotation, but I wish I did! I'm confident they will probably bring it back somewhere down the road! I was surprised to see them already using dungeons in the Mythic+ pool from Shadowlands in The War Within so soon, but it makes sense. They are built and ready-made for it, as opposed to bringing older dungeons up to speed with this new system! Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
@@edd_TV Any time! Just wanted to have a little bit of positive input regarding Shadowlands (I appreciate it wasn’t the best, but it was my first full expansion since Wrath; and I sucked back in the day!) Yeah, looking back, it wasn’t fantastic and had a lot of issues, but it wasn’t entirely for naught at least!
I honestly was never a fan of the various and countless retcons, revisions and altered themes for the lore. I didn't enjoy Night Elves joining the Alliance and overally losing their savage yet graceful nature, becoming more like the High Elves instead of Warcraft's take on the "Drow Elves" of high fantasy. Forsaken joining the Horde and losing their sort of independence, mostly being written as untrustworthy to other members of the Horde, or downright abusing their goodwill to go behind their backs and becoming evil. But I gave WoW's story a chance regardless, it also being my first MMORPG helped due to a lack of decent competitors at the time for the genre. But slowly overtime, the retcons becoming more flagrant, messier, less coherent, and even worse, derailing what made the original lore good in the first place. BfA and SL did exactly those things. Whilst there were lore changes throughout all expansions, from TBC Draenei appearance, Illidan and his cohorts, etc... To WoTLK with how the Helm of Domination is now integral to holding the Scourge's control, that there must always be a Lich King (until it's not), Muradin being alive and was relegated to just sitting on the Council of Three Hammers, being somehow the least important of the three, the Aspects doing literally nothing to stamp the Scourge advancing during the events of Warcraft III, etc... To Cataclysm, bringing both Nefarian and Onyxia back for nostalgic points, same as well for Ragnaros, Cenarius revival, Goblin shaman (really?) etc... MoP was quite the breath of fresh air, introducing new lore, adding more instead of riding the waves of nostalgia. The Mantid was very well done, so did the Jinyu, Hozen and Pandaren, even to a lesser extent, the Mogu, especially the Thunder King. It was just everything else: the tiresome faction war, Garrosh becoming increasingly more generic as a villain, instead of an antagonistic force as he was, the Sha was promising, but ended up being too irrelevant a plot thread when 6/7 of them dies at the launch and first patch. WoD then rode that nostalgia tail again and reduced Garrosh to basically a footnote to jumpstart it, and again, ridding the majority of threats in just the launch and first patch, because they're just orcs with modern weapons, the same foes we have fought for *years*. The biggest highlight of WoD was expanding on the Arakkoa, they've gone from just small facet of enemies in TBC to an entire culture of people that was once the shining pillar of Draenor, and like the Mantid, was done extremely well Legion was good, great at times. Honestly, the best retcon has ever been done is the Broken Isles being just the Broken Shore, and everything else was new and fresh to be written. Suramar and its lore was amazing, refreshing. Though the sheer silliness of having the Nightborne joining the Horde because Tyrande was somehow written to be hostile against her own people still confounds me. The TBC salvaging was probably the most apparent for Illidan, taking the blame away from him for mistreating Outlands denizens onto the greed and disobedience of his lieutenants. It made him weak as a leader, and even worse, incompetent. It was also a somewhat half-baked "redemption arc" wherein he was never "evil" but was just ignorant of the events around him. Maiev was also massively retconned from the events of Cataclysm between her, the Highborne, and her brother (She was opposed to the Highborne rejoining the Night Elves society, massacred a few of them, and was placed in jail by her own brother, who becomes the leader of the Wardens), All the Ulduar changes to the Prime Designate, to how Valkyrs are made, everything in regards to Odyn, essentially. Oh, and Argus being a World Soul instead of just being a planet housing the most advanced race Sargeras wanted to use as commanders of his legions. Those are just the few I can name, plenty of others yet remain over the years. Though I was never fond of them, I didn't mind because they didn't cut the overall narrative to ribbons, they were still somewhat decent addition to the lore, not excellent by any means, but good enough. The most egregious for me is still to this day, the Faction War. It kept being a dead horse being beaten, defibilated, and beaten to death again and again to stoke some nonsensical conflict between the Horde and the Alliance, only for them to work together yet again at every expansion. I had thought it ended in Warcraft III, but it kept being brought back, until it was put to a head again in MOP, which was, to me at least, the weakest aspect of the lore. And I thought it would end again during the events of Legion, seeing how the Order Halls filled to the brim with Alliance and Horde affiliated members, working together, speaking to each other like they were friends. I thought that by that point, we'd have peace and there would be an uproar going against the more radical aspects of either factions that just wanted conflict as a plot thread Boy I was wrong when BfA opened up with that cinematic. It sucked so much enthusiasm out of me to see the Factions are, yet again, at war. Though the trailer made it out to be that the Alliance was the instigator this time around, so a part of me, and a few of my friends who also enjoys discussing the lore, were invested in such. But then the War of the Thorns happened, the burning of Teldrassil, and the Siege of Lordaeron. Those events killed what hyped I had, slim it was, for BfA. It didn't matter how interesting the various Loas of Zandalar are, nor the sinister nature of the Drusts, nor how the Tide Sages diffrentiate themselves from what a Shaman, or what a Mage is. Because now it's another godsdamned faction war. The Azerite plot thread is also uninteresting. So Magni, you're telling me we're saving the planet, by using the blood of the planet, the same thing that the nefarious and greedy forces are also using, to save it? But we're firing off lasers and throwing chunks of rocks at them instead of producing war tanks and cannons, so we're the good guys! It also never sat well that Azshara, a figure that was explored in countless materials, ended up not having an expansion to herself, but just a patch and a raid, and was immediately left forgotten for the threat of N'zoth. Shadowlands needed to correct a lot of the lore, it needed to be good so BfA can just be forgotten. But we know how that went. Your videos have been very coherent in stating what was and wasn't great about it, so I will only go about its lore aspects and lost potentials. Despite going to the litera realms of death and afterlives, Blizzard heavily missed out on the ultimate nostalgia bait that they could have made. Imagine all of your dead heroes, appearing here. Heroes and Villains of all of Warcraft's past, and not just one note characters either. Only Uther, Draka, Alexandros Mograine, Kel'thuzad, Kael'thas and Ysera were present. Why? Why not go all out? Where's Anduin Lothar, Antonidas, Terenas Menethil, Anasterian Sunstrider, Korialstrasz (Krasus), Rhonin the Red, etc etc etc... So so so many characters with established lore to bring back so that they, in their familiarity, introduces us to the different aspects of each afterlives, instead of writing more new characters that won't be relevant after the expansion they were introduced in. The biggest sin of them all is not utilising the elephant in the room for Anduin's tug back to the Light and the forces of good - his mother, Tiffin Wrynn. She was just a one-off character that was introduced in the comics and was promptly killed in that same flashback. When Anduin was taken, she should have been the core aspect in regards to his character development. We've already got enough with Varian and his bonds with Anduin, and I do enjoy some aspects of it being highlighted in TWW in the brief time I played it, but it is such a shame that he, too, like Thrall, lost a mother at a young age. But while Thrall had a chance to bond with his, Anduin was never given the same treatment. And by the end of Sepulcher, when that cinematic plays after Anduin's defeat, it shouldn't have been Saurfang, it should have been Tiffin, and Varian. Both of his parents, caring so much about him, that brought him back from the brink. All the gripes about the Dreadlords, the Jailer, etc etc, all of it was stated to death already, but this was never highlighted so I wanted to give this aspect of Anduin's development some thoughts. The lore of Warcraft, after III, and especially in WoW, was always a mess. But was a coherent mess until BfA and SL. I used to love reading the lore, devouring it. But now I can't give a rat's arse when a character is introduced and is killed off in fifteen minutes anymore. Apologies for the long read.
No apology necessary my friend! I appreciate you taking the time to watch the video and craft such a well written comment. You have shined a massive on light on inconsistences retcons/revisions that existed long before Shadowlands. I think we often can have short memories so thank you for bringing all of this up! I think some are acceptable or have worked out okay, but in the sense of Shadowlands it was obviously disastrous! I really resonate with your feelings about returning to the faction war after Argus and also the importance of Shadowlands needing to succeed. I have mixed feelings about bFA as an expansion but narratively I was incredibly disappointed with it. We had two hugely anticipated antagonists in both Azshara and N'Zoth and both were shafted. Nazjatar and Ny'alotha were deserving of their continents and expansions. It felt so incredibly ham-fisted. I wasn't sure what I wanted Shadowlands to be, but I knew I needed it to be good and of course, it wasn't. I LOVE the idea of Tiffin being at Anduin's side instead of Saurfang. I can't lie, I did enjoy seeing Saurfang but the idea of Tiffin would have been so sweet. I think I find myself walking the same road as you do. There are a lot of aches and pains with Shadowlands and they still exist now. I never truly gave myself to Dragonflight because I don't think I can anymore. My mentality isn't there. I'm still suffering from this Shadowlands hangover and the idea of giving myself to them just to get let down is just a horrible thought I could do without. And I know I'm serious this time too because I never played the pre-patch for TWW and it was the first expansion I never pre-ordered. I want to try it. I would love to make a video documenting my thoughts. I'm just worried that I'll never care about the game again, and it sucks because I've given so much of my life to it. Thank you again for crafting such a brilliant read and taking the time to watch the video! I deeply appreciate it.
@@edd_TV Something else I'd like to bring up in regards to retcon, or in this case, recontextualising, is the concept of the Holy Light, or the Light. Before the release of Chronicles Volume 1, the Light was magic, but it isn't something that comes from a certain source. The Naaru are beings made of Light, yes, and people can draw and drain from them to have Holy magic, like the Blood Elves before the return of the Sunwell. Trolls, especially the Zandalari, also has the loa, Rezan, or Shirvallah, figures that they can worship and be granted powers, but they can also use the Light using their faith and worship said loa.The Church of the Holy Light, the Brotherhood of the Light, the right eye of the Earth-Mother An'she, Elune and so on, are also instances where faith grants the person their Light given powers. The powers themselves can be either for good (The Silver Hand) or for ill (The Scarlet Crusade). And it especially cannot be taken from you (Tirion could still use the Light even after having been supposedly stripped from it) and does not seem to be finite (various moments when the Light work miracles, regardless of how dire the situation is), because it is your will that the Light manifests. It's essentially the power of faith and determination, likeso with Dynamis for Final Fantasy. The Chronicles recontextualised this in a manner that makes the Light now exists not only as a power of faith and will, but also as a source of Cosmic energy that predates all life and is within all life - ala the Force. But the book and Legion also goes on further in saying that the Light is also as corrupting and controlling as the Void, and that they're two sides of the same coin, and have made damning efforts in making sure that the Light is "morally grey" by showing Xe'ra trying to convert Illidan, forcefully "corrupting" him with the Light, or Y'rel and the Lightbound being essentially brain-washed and conscripted, either through zealousness, fanaticism, or by forcefully converting non-willing people with the Light. That is where I can't take that context serious. The Light wasn't shown to be a power of conversion, or something that can be forced upon others. Again, the Light is a power of faith and will, has been shown to be so many times, and yet somehow now it has to serve this narrative of "nothing is purely good, everything can be bad". Blizzard's writers failure to see that they *have* succesfully done so with the Light in the past is where my frustrations really shown, that they've forgotten their own lore, and haphazardly changed things without looking back. I mainly care so much about the Light due to playing as a Paladin since the start, from the original Vanilla all the way through. I very much like the concept of a Holy warrior using strength of arms, will and faith in good to assist the downtrodden. My favourite character is also Uther (also Thrall), and to see what has been done to that concept is nothing short of sheer and utter disappointment. I've not played Dragonflight so my lore knowledge stops just before it, or even before 9.1, even, so I don't know whether things have changed recently, or they've stayed this course for the Light. I did comeback for TWW to play with friends, but recently unsubscribed again due to them also not playing anymore. I mainly play XIV since 2021 now, before the mass exodus, and the controversy, but they've only strengthen my reasons for staying and avoiding WoW, due to how that universe is also rich in lore, but it is well written and is very minimal on retcons, mainly recontextualising and using mysteries and untold answers to leave things open for new lore to fill the blanks. It also not requiring you to read about a baker's dozen worth of outside materials just to know what the bloody hells is going on before the new expansion is always nice, with everything important in regards to the lore being 99% contained inside the game.
Shadowlands was the first expansion that actually made me rage quit the game. Before that I've always played on and off during expansions. I'll play, lose interest and play something else, then come back later and repeat. But during 9.1 I just broke. There was so much things that I had to do to keep my chars up to date that I didn't have time to do the things in the game I actually enjoyed doing. Previous expansions I'd level multiple alts and in SL I only did my main and one alt. And that was so time consuming that I just barely managed to get my dailies done. On top of that the story was SO BAD. I kept wondering what kind of imbecille wrote that. Take the Necrolord Sigil for example: We found out that the Primus had entrusted it to the attendants in Korthia who locked it away somewhere where only they could access it. Great, so we just have to keep the attendants safe and everything is fine, right? No, for some reason we have to open the vault, and get attacked by minions of the jailer in process. But we manage to defeat them and we take the sigil out. Then we find out that it's encrypted, so nobody can use it. Great, we just have to hide it somewhere then, right? Nope. Let's take it right into the Jailer's seat of power. Oh, whoops. He just walked in and took it. Fantastic. And then there was the siege of Ardenweald. We spend all that time defending the sigil, only to learn that it was just a decoy. And they left the real sigil completely unattended. So the Jailer's army just found it and took it unopposed. It consistently felt like the only way the writers could make the Jailer seem smart was to lobotomize everyone else. It all combined to me one day staying up late trying to get my dailies done, wondering how I can do it quick enough to still get enough for sleep for work and I just... Stopped. The game was not fun. At all. 9.0 had some good moments but this was shit. I just turned off the game and went to bed. The day after I cancelled my subscription. When 9.2 was announced I just felt... Nothing. I wasn't interested in the patch at all, and that honestly made me sad. No expansion had ever created such apathy in me for a game I usually love this much. I eventually returned for the DF pre launch and I have been enjoying WoW again since then. Currently enjoying TWW. But, yeah, SL was awful.
It was the first time I knew I really wanted out. I don't even think it was rage for me, I think I was quite numb. I remember we finished a raid night in Nathria and I just said to one of my friends 'I don't know why I'm doing this. I'm not having fun anymore', and I just quit. And I didn't go back until the final patch. I took breaks in BFA but I would always come back. In Shadowlands I had no desire at all until it was essentially over. Admittedly things were a bit nicer in the final patch with covenants and such, but narratively the damage was so bad. I heard so many horror stories about 9.1, so I'm not surprised at all it broke you. I think I would definitely be feeling rage if I was hanging in there for that long. You make a great point about the narrative and the sigils too. I don't think that gets talked about enough. The main characters were genuinely written like buffoons in that respect. Zovaal acquired the sigils by the utter stupdity of the main cast. It was almost like it was written by a child in that sense. It all just felt too easy. These characters are supposed to be heroes and really significant and for them to just be bested so easily like that is just dumb. I understand it's to move the plot forward but it just makes them all look so stupid. You can't take them seriously when stuff like this is going on. It sounds like you had the same realisation as me. You just hung in there a lot longer than I did. Fair play to you, I commend you. I love Warcraft, but I just couldn't stay. I do agree with you that the launch and 9.0 was genuinely not bad at the beginning! But it really did snowball fast. I feel exactly the same as you do regarding Shadowlands and I still haven't fully recovered from it. I tried Dragonflight and wanted to give it an honest go. I did all the keys on +20 in Mythic+ and was really trying to give myself to the game, but something didn't feel right. I wasn't sure if it was because I wasn't connecting with the narrative or because none of my friends were around anymore. Nobody I knew wanted to play after Shadowlands anymore. And narratively it feels like nothing matters now, because if a character dies whether it be an ally or a foe we can just go over to the Shadowlands and see them if we want to. Pulling back on the veil on the Afterlife is probably the riskiest thing they have ever done. And we're kinda just stuck with that now, until further notice. Life leads to death, and death leads to the Shadowlands. And that's just a permanent stain now. Had we lost Khadgar, we could just click the Oribos portal and go and find him. I'm glad to hear both Dragonflight and TWW are hitting for you! You clearly love the game so much, so I'm pleased to hear you're back having fun. I haven't tried TWW yet, but I'm getting closer and closer. I miss WoW so much. I'm just scared that I'll be admitting to myself that I just can't play it anymore. And that's a difficult thing to want to discover. Sorry for such a long winded response! I really appreciate you taking the time to watch the video and sharing your thoughts!
The Arthas stuff; dead right with it there. Personally think he's their most iconic and marketable character. When they first hinted towards him featuring a lot of people felt they'd never be able to do him justice and that's possibly when Blizzards plans changed. Getting dropped into the Maw... fair enough; but it felt like there was going to be a lot more there. It was so poorly done it felt like they'd gone so far into production that shifting things around got messy and giving the arc a finale which had become more of an afterthought in their face saving exercise. Could be wrong of course... but as I said he's their most marketable character and for him to end like that was just poor writing and poor business. Don't think he's done though. Was watching Secret Level the other day and thought to myself that I would not be surprised if in season 2 they had the Culling of Stratholme. Interest in the character will spike and even if Blizz is reluctant their new Microsoft bosses might feel differently.
I can remember the lump in my throat when there were suggestions about Arthas featuring in Shadowlands. I just didn't want it at all. I think you're absolutely right. When you hear 'Warcraft' you think of Arthas and the Lich King; for a lot of fans he IS Warcraft. I think given the way Blizzard have treated Arthas, it almost feels like they hate him. Arthas isn't their character. And I almost feel like there's jealousy involved with it. He's the ultimate WoW character. The Anakin Skywalker of the Warcraft universe, and no matter what they do they won't ever be able to create another character like him. This is obviously quite a leap, but just a personal opinion. It's how Shadowlands made me feel. I think we could definitely see the scourge again. Northrend is getting revamped in The Last Titan so I wonder what happens when the scourge have no master after the Helm of Domination was destroyed? As always, I appreciate your thoughts m00n!
Shadowlands killed any love I had for WoW. It has burned any grace I could have had that Dragonflight could have been the greatest thing ever & still wouldn't keep me invested since I had been burned so hard by Shadowlands. Instead of hoping for WoW to be better I only want it to burn & die, which is sad.
I tried my best to dust myself off with Dragonflight. I wanted it to be good but it was very clear I still had the aches and pains and was suffering from the hangover of Shadowlands. I did Season 1 and +20'd every key on Mythic+ and then I just felt empty. I didn't connect with the story at all. It just didn't feel like Warcraft to me. That makes me so sad that you feel this way, but I honestly understand it. Shadowlands hurt the game and players enormously.
You know what the most wild thing here is? Your summary of the narrative was actually far clearer, better delivered and easier to understand than the real in-game explanations and dialogue in-game. So many things were misinterpreted by the community, but you can't blame them because the way they were told was so poor it was practically inviting those misunderstandings.
I'm glad to hear it! I can't take the credit for it though, I was just reading the post on Reddit! But you are absolutely right. When I took the time to read the post myself before putting this video together, there was a huge thud of clarity. It doesn't help in the grand scheme of things because it's still told so poorly, but again you're right! I think Shadowlands genuinely had potential to be such a cool time for speculation. The Primus theory is awesome! I think it can also be dangerous too though. I think if we start hoping and wishing for something and then it doesn't happen, we only really have ourselves to blame. If players start running with things and creating their own narratives and expectations, they are just setting themselves up for potential disappointment. Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts!
The premise of the story isn't actually all that bad all things considered. But the execution is abysmal. And a Huge part of why is because WoW has always had inconsistent and fragmented story telling from expansion to expansion. They wanted to achieve the same thing FFXIV achieved with Shadowbringers/Endwalker but they couldn't pull it off cause they didn't have any foundation to make it work. And before the WoW andies get on my case about this. Alot of people in WoW's development team play FFXIV. Some of the WoW devs are actually acquainted with FFXIV devs.
I agree. I think there was some crazy potential with this story (and expansion as a whole). I do think the cosmic stuff was really off-putting for a lot of fans. It felt like a bridge too far I think. We were off in the deep end and it felt so different to BFA. I know people can be quite critical about BFA but you can't deny the themes were there for Warcraft! I think it's fascinating that the game has been becoming more story driven since what feels like MoP I would say. I think we could argue Wrath, but Wrath had the baseline of Warcraft III and the cutscenes and everything else weren't as prevalent as what we see today. It feels like as Blizzard and WoW have become more progressive as storytellers, its suffered more and more. It feels like less is more. And when you throw XIV in the mix too and they are clearly drawing from it, you're right. They don't have the foundations because the expansions are like a theme park. Pandaria! Shadowlands! Dragon Isles! You don't get a chance to breathe. Everything is so different. I think that's the most upsetting part to me too. Once Shadowlands was over and all the damage was done, we were just told to look the other way because 'Don't worry, the Dragon Aspects are here now!' and now it's time for something completeeeeely different. The Worldsoul Saga is clearly derivative of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc from FFXIV, I don't think anybody would dispute that. What I find interesting is is that I wonder what the percentage is of players who actually enjoy the story? I bet it's higher than what we expect but when it comes to the average WoW player, I bet they are constantly just pressing 'esc' when a cutscene pops up. I think there are SO many elements and cool features to draw on with FFXIV, I'm just not sure if more story is the right one for WoW, especially when they are so poor at delivering it. The ideas are there, granted. But like you said, the execution is always their Achilles Heel, and it's fast becoming unsustainable. I can't speak for TWW as I still haven't played it, and I really hope it's doing well but my interest in the narrative is utterly dead after Shadowlands, and I don't know if I'll get that hunger back. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and I'm sorry for such a lengthy response!
@@edd_TV Glad you mentioned that. FF14 we were there for a dungeon, a trial and if you wanted to a raid. The ethereal sea and souls returning and being reborn has been a staple of many Final Fantsy games. Gentle retcons. Plus I felt more emotional seeing the enemies and friends we saw in that dungeon. Then most of what was in shadowlands.
Haha! In a way I'm pleased to hear that because it's such a condensed story recap! I can't take credit for it, it's a post I saw on Reddit that I wanted to use just to give people some background if they were curious! It's rough knowing that you were actively playing the game and still managed to glean more from this video than the actual game! I think it goes to show how much they have fallen in storytelling. So much is either told in books now or completely left to the wayside. For Shadowlands, I just don't think there was a plan at all. There's no way there could have been. Whatever the goal or vision was for Shadowlands, we never saw it. We saw them throwing stuff together and seeing what stuck.
Forever grateful for TWW being way more forthcoming w the main narrative & not burying it in sidequests and quest text cause literally same. I’m a lore reader & I literally had to go to the forums daily to understand anything. Apparently most of the important lore was hidden in those books only 1% find & even less care to read… so. 🫤
I felt this way too, I played through most of SL (sat out on a huge chunk of the Korthia patch) and up until this video I had no idea why the covenant sigils were so important, or what purpose they even served. I paid a lot of attention to the lore in BFA, I even read all the quest texts, but in Shadowlands I gave up on following the story halfway through leveling my main. I just couldn't care less about all these new characters thrown our way every step of the way.
For maldraxxus i really enjoy the idea of mixing undeath with constant battle and challenge, like if you're gonna be an undead thing for eternity anyway, why not constantly challenge yourself to be better and stronger and cooler? And i think the entire zone reflects that mix and both separate aspects at the same time! It was definitely my favorite zone in the expansion and yet there were still many shortcomings in it
I do love it when you put it like that. It sounds very cool! I do feel bad for not having more to say on the zone because the WoW team honestly kicked ass with it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on Maldraxxus, and thanks for watching!
@@arfirik Thank you so much. I really appreciate it! Do feel free to respond with any further thoughts you have. Always very curious to hear what players think!
I've been thinking about replaying Warcraft III. I feel like I want to get in touch with Sylvanas as a character again, before it all got so sour. I'm really scared for her return. I can just imagine them showing Quel'Thalas in the Midnight trailer and showing Sylvanas, and I'm terrified it's going to be met with groans. I really do wonder if there's a way back for her? You're right though, she was awesome back then :(
Agree with pretty much all your points. I bowed out of the game before the Sanctum of Domination patch, and went to play FFXIV for a couple years. Even though I'm back playing WoW again, I still can't bring myself to go back to any of the Shadowlands zones or raids, despite wanting to collect all the things. I'd just rather forget the expansion ever existed.
I recall us having a few conversations about FFXIV! I feel the same as you. I don't think I'm fully cured from the Shadowlands hangover. Even when I was playing Dragonflight I still didn't feel great. I haven't began The War Within yet but I think I'm going to finally start in the New Year. I know if I started taking WoW seriously again I'd want to collect everything, It's just who I am, haha. It was oddly nostalgic putting this video together, as far as the soundtrack was concerned. Some of them are really nice but you are right, everything feels so tainted and it becomes very difficult to want to praise and actually exist in the game. I always feel an overwhelming sense of dread when I'm in Oribos.
@@edd_TV I'm surprised you remember that conversation, that was months ago and I've slept since then! Dragonflight for sure still felt very off. It just felt like it was lacking the "bite" of Warcraft. I didn't feel invested enough to play it much either. War Within feels decent to play though, I'm enjoying the new adventure and it feels like they're paying more attention to making a nicer story experience. The game isn't completely out of the woods yet, but I think it's making good strides so far. I look forward to seeing your follow-up videos for DF and WW if you do them.
1:11:05 need someone to make a what if Uther forgave arthas and didn’t drop him into the maw imagine seeing him in shadowlands show up to help out against the jailer Or have kelthuzad be playing 4d chess with the jailer secretly waiting for the perfect time to resurrect arthas and remake frostmourne and the helm of domination
Shadowlands felt like the final culmination of the gameplay philosophy of Legion. Looking back, it felt like Blizz really wanted to capture the traditional RPG gameplay elements with stuff like the Maw and Covenants but it’s too much of a departure for modern WoW now. If they had toned it down it might have gone over better.
I agree with that. I do think they genuinely meant well with what they were trying to do, but the failure to listen to feedback was super frustrating! I think the ideas for Shadowlands were genuinely cool: covenants and torghast were both awesome in theory, but the execution was just dire. I think you're right that the focus was just too much on these sort of systems and features too. I think if you stand it up to previous versions of the game where things are so much simpler, you can see why they are so much more successful. I think you're absolutely right about this being the cruel end to the road that Legion paved. I will champion Legion until I'm blue in the face, but I am cognizant that BFA and Shadowlands were faults of Legion. Legion birthed this gameplay. And Legion was so successful, why would Blizzard shy away from it? Doubling down on the gameplay in BFA was so damaging and to then do it AGAIN for Shadowlands just felt unbearable. I think they are on a better road now, but I think it was a bridge too far for some people to forgive them this time. I don't have any friends who play retail anymore. Shadowlands was the last straw for them, and that makes me so sad. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
By the end of the expansion, when you could swap them, they played a lot like Elder Scrolls guilds, and were pretty cool. I remember 9.2 relatively fondly. The issue was, 9.2 was more than a year after release, and 9.1 was a total dud of a patch that came after a very long content drought.
@@Julian-cn1ey That's a nice comparison. Honestly yeah, when I came back at the end and they opened up the covenant system and Fated was a thing, I actually did have a bit of fun with it all. And that's the most frustrating part. Why couldn't it have been this way from the start? I feel the same about Legion Legendaries. If you didn't get lucky, you were potentially screwed for mythic+ keys or even dropped from raid groups. Just for then to introduce being able to purchase your own legendaries when its much too late. I do want to be mindful of what was going on in real life at the time and think it definitely played a factor. I'm utterly convinced that 9.1 should have had way more focus on Tazavesh. It just feels like WoD a bit. 'What could have been', you know?
@@Julian-cn1ey Honestly I think soulbinds were the issue instead of covenants themselves. Soulbinds made the individual covenants so much more powerful but without them, it would have just been a single weaker class ability and the covenant ability.
@@Synergy1898 That is true. I think you would have had to remove both the soulbinds themselves and the actual abilities the covenants gave for any of this to work out. They should have just been purely cosmetic based rather than forcing people into specific corners of the world. I can remember in Legion some people were very particular about letting people into their Mythic+ groups if they didn't have the correct legendaries, which was totally out of the players control and came down to blind luck (until later in the expansion when it was far too late). Some players were eventually benched from raiding or were forced to reroll if things didn't work out for them. It felt like Blizzard were learning nothing. The only lesson they learned is in Shadowlands they gave you the choice to join the 'correct' covenant, but not the one you perhaps wanted or were interested in.
Shadowlands is so bad that it made me quit in 2020 after beating the main story and running around Oribos for a while. Came back for Dragonflight and have since levelled alts through all expansions via timewalking, as well as SoD and remix. So I thought maybe I'll try it again, on a DK no less! It made me quit again.
@@Conorp77 Good idea. It's important to take breaks and play other things! That's what I've been doing too. I've seen The War Within is on sale, so maybe it's a good time for us both to give it a try soon.
Shadowlands was so bad it almost killed WoW. It came closer than WoD, it came closer than content droughts, it came closer than anything. What I want is for Blizz to put a giant Shadowlands poster on the wall of every break room and every executive's office, because they need to remember not to fuck up like that again.
I want them to talk about it someday. Like I genuinely wanted them to speak out about Shadowlands and why it failed. Not even from a place of anger, I'm just genuinely very curious. We never got an apology, we never got answers. We were just told to look the other way and move on because it's time for the Dragon Isles now. I want to know their vision and why certain things didn't come to pass. I want to know what Zovaal was actually supposed to be. It just seems an impossible thought to me that this is the product they wanted to give us. There's no way. Shadowlands absolutely has to serve as a reminder to them. I agree with you. We talked about the 'WoW killer' for so many years and unironically, Shadowlands or patch 9.1 more specifically was the WoW killer. So many have never looked back afterwards. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
SL cost them billions. And it's not the lore. The anti-alt overdesign of the gameplay ruined SL. One of the massive differences between SL and TWW has been DF-style flying. And they are gonna screw that up too.
Very true. It's definitely something I slept on in this video. I wanted to dedicate a section to alts and the new levelling methods, the threads of fate, and even Exile's Reach for newcomers. WoW has been so needlessly alt unfriendly in the era of Legion-Shadowlands. I can't speak for The War Within as I haven't actually played it yet, but I'm assuming things have calmed down a bit now. I've always played my paladin thankfully, but I can't imagine how brutal some of these times must have been over the course of these expansions. I still find it absolutely mystifying they never made the Essence's account bound in BFA. Just insane.
I think the problem of the "mystic" mindset is. That blizzard support a kind of anti play rather then enjoying dungeon. On my pov mystic is a failed concept. It made a toxic game even more toxic and not even achieved the goal of being "difficult". It's just making numbers higher or adding annoying timers and elements that make certain keys a hell to run (holy priester trauma...) I think a real hard mode makes bosses mechanical difficult and not just increases numbers or adding unavoidable damage for the poor healer to deal with while counter healing the higher damage numbers. While I enjoyed mystic raiding in newer expansions because bosses have fun mechanics and challenges for my healer i have to deal with. Mystic dungeons force you into speed running while you might enjoy more focused gameplay more.
I agree. I think the game has become incredibly competitive. I think it's an important question to ask. Should MMO's be competitive? Outside of something like PvP. Mythic and Mythic+ have both transformed WoW entirely, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst. I definitely think timed gameplay is bad.
@@edd_TV If we look on the success classic had even for new player... till the min maxer and swiper conquered Season of discovery. And how much success FF14 has with his high focus on telling a story and making all content relevant even after the game moves far past it. I think it's clear to see that people enjoy this kind of gameplay. I think Blizzard created the min max problem as they more and more promoted this playstyle with each expansion. As this kind of playstyle was the best way to make the spenders spend. Yet once people are forced to slow down and are forced to engange with the world... They start to realize: "Hey leveling is actually fun." and later on they think. "After all this work i finally manage to beat the raid boss. This was awesome." Hence even being forced to have slow travel speed makes the moment you get your mount or flying so much more cool. Rather then rewarding the player that engage with the game and took their time to explore. Blizzard rewarted the tourist that rush trough the content as quickly as possible. Hence they even made the same mistake in season of discovery by promoting dungeon leveling groups and EXP boost for this kind of people.
Shadowlands is why i started playing ff14. The dragonflight and the war within have fixed my connection to wow but man Shadowlands fell off so hard. I remember liking it for like the first couple weeks then the horror of the situation dawned on me. I agree with you whole heartedly on the customization point though. Wow has come a long way for sure but ff14 is still miles ahead. So much pysical customization and then you have the robust dye system in 14.
I was already playing FFXIV here and there prior to Shadowlands, but Shadowlands confirmed my departure too. It's when I decided to make FFXIV my main game. I really liked S1 of Dragonflight. I was in there! I did all the keys on +20 and was genuinely enjoying myself, but I didn't think the story was much to look at. I also had no friends to play with as Shadowlands completely destroyed WoW for them. They all play classic now, or have quit full stop. I'm glad you agree about the customisation! I think playing FFXIV really does open your eyes to just how much is available and where WoW is lacking. The dye system is also fantastic, great point!
I wish shadowlands came at the end of the current trilogy of expansions. It would’ve been a lovely bookend on the history of Warcraft, visiting old characters and finally seeing what happens in the shadowlands. A great way to say goodbye to the old and hello to the new. But maybe minus the Jailor and Sylvanas’ storyline.
I think so too. I think exploring the afterlife was a crazy risk and now it's something we'll always think of when characters die. Sometimes less is more and mystique is always important I think. I think if this was the finale and WoW 2 was coming, I could have accepted this. I really wanted to make a chapter dedicated to 'Returning Characters' but the video was getting really long so I had to cut it, but I think that's a sweet idea when you put it like that. If we could have seen everybody we lost along the way as a sort of goodbye: Varian, Tirion, Garrosh, Mankrik's wife! Throw everybody in there, you know? That's a nice thought. I think this expansion was doomed the minute the jailer was outlined, if we can call him that. I think adding him retroactively and saying he was responsible for X, Y and Z was just incredibly outlandish. I like your thoughts, thank you for sharing!
I’ve unironically been playing WoW since I was a little little kid & Shadowlands legit almost broke my love for the game forever. I can’t even think of a specific moment, it was just a boring, listless, lore breaking expansion. I remember I was doing dailies in Korthia one day and I just couldn’t take it anymore and didn’t log in for months. Sometimes my interest wanes & I don’t log in for a month or two but I had zero motivation to log in for half a year, we were several months into DF by the time I finally gave it a shot again. I’ve had a pretty good time since then, but my love and joy for the story is and never has been the same afterwards.
Also I hated what they did with Sylvanas, Legion to Shadowlands She was never my favorite but I always respected her character & thought she was cool. Then the burning of Teldrassil happened and I was so horrified & angry that it drained any and all love for her & I just couldn’t wait to see her die (again) Shadowlands attempts to explain away her horrible actions & redeem her after sending thousands of innocent souls, not just to their deaths, but to literal eternal hell! Absolutely abysmal
I relate to your comment so much. I started when I was 14, and prior to that I was just obsessed with Warcraft III. I really loved the characters and the world. I was never big on RTS but something about Warcraft III just absolutely got its claws in me. I loved it. Shadowlands honestly did break my love for the game, at least playing it. I still love WoW and I think about it often. I miss it. I tried Dragonflight and I really wanted to give myself to the game again, like I always did. I just couldn't. Something didn't feel right. I wasn't connecting with the story and all of my friends had quit. It didn't feel like WoW to me anymore. I tried to persevere and stick it out for a while. And sure there were some things I enjoyed with Dragonflight: the zones, dragonriding, the dungeons etc. But it didn't have the legs for me to stay. I was still suffering with a SEVERE Shadowlands hangover and those aches and pains weren't going away, so I had to withdraw. I came back briefly for the Emerald Dream patch but nothing has ever made me want to stay. I think the biggest part for me was that we needed WoW more than ever during the pandemic. WoW has always been a huge safety blanket and helped me through dark times, depression and so on. It had always been there for me and helped me when I needed it most, but during Shadowlands the remedy and the cure wasn't working anymore. I still haven't purchased The War Within and I think it's mainly because I'm scared. I'm scared if I buy it and play it, I might get the same feelings Dragonflight gave me. And if that happens I have to admit to myself that it's truly over. I am going to try TWW soon, but I'm really fearful of it. I'm so glad to hear you're back and enjoying yourself! I appreciate you taking your time to watch the video and sharing your thoughts!
@ I get your fears with TWW, I also put off getting into it for months out of fear of it being like the Shadowlands again I’ve enjoyed it so far but that’s not to say it’s for everyone, & I’m a very casual player myself Also I agree with you, WoW has *literally* been there for me my whole life through the dark and light times, so to be so distraught over the state the game was in & to be fearful of it ever becoming like that again, is really upsetting. I hope to everything that it never becomes like SL again. Also sometimes I still do SL content for mounts/achieves & even at max level everything is so slow/boring that it feels like my life force is slipping away just by being there. How does a game even do that to you.
@@Archember I pray for that too! I don't think it's possible that we'll ever see anything like Shadowlands again, but I wouldn't want to tempt fate! I'm glad that you were able to give TWW a go and that you're enjoying it. I think I will too. There is just a lot of fear and anxiety there. I must say the new Undermine(d) patch looks really fun! I totally relate to you even just being back in the zones too btw. When I did some recordings for this video and just walking through Oribos and stuff, it was like getting punched in the gut. It's oddly bittersweet because I like the zones and I love the soundtrack, but the memories just feel so bad overall. There is still so much I need from Shadowlands and I definitely want to get back to collecting it all in time, it just feels 'too soon'.
@ Shadowlands will literally and figuratively haunt WoW for the end of time and it’s so sad Undermine!! Honestly I didn’t know what to think of this patch but after watching Nobbel87 do some ptr for it I’m pretty excited, I loveee Goblins, and another shot to kill Gallywix, and we finally get the Hotrod I’ve wanted since Cata! It’s a patch I’m actually looking forward to for once.
I know everyone here is kinda bitter about the gameplay systems (and I am too, since I both raided mythic and went for 2.5k m+ score, so I had to do every single fvcking chore, every single fvcking day). But whatever.. Shadowlands gravest sin that I'll never forgive is the complete obliteration of big parts of WoW's lore so far. Like every patch things kept happening that made me feel it's either creative dev team having multiple strokes or this was another world now. On a more personal level, I despised SL for handling the final blow on Sylvanas, my most favorite of all WoW chars (yes I'm a stan, fvck off now). Had to watch her slow destruction already from the end of Legion, then it went on for full force in BfA while the devs were like "wait and see" when people were saying "wtf why would she behave so and so?". And then came SL with its "lore", and finished Sylvanas' character in one of the most horrible ways I could imagine, making her v.1 self despise her v.2 self, cancelling all that development she's had since Vanilla. And for what? No freaking reason at all but because of Afrasiabi's spite (if the rumors the devs themselves spread are to be believed). By season 4 of SL I was pretty much checked out. Legion was so enjoyable but lore-wise the next 3-4 years that followed made sure to snuff out any appreciation and feeling of connection I had with WoW's world. Haven't played since then and only now trying to get myself to try the new xpac (can't even remember how it's called).
It is sadly the price we pay for trying to be the best we can be. And we shouldn't ever be punished for that, so I feel your pain. You're bang on the money for me. I think the loudest noise for Shadowlands will always be the systems, and it's definitely valid. But I 100% stand with you. We left Shadowlands with less than we started with, and that was INSANE. There was absolutely zero pay off for what we went through. If we had 'woken up' and it was all a bad dream, that would have been the best ending ever because at least we would have been free from all this nonsense. You couldn't save this narrative. The only takeaway was that they could provide further depth for Anduin, nothing else came from this. They destroyed years and years of progress and lore. Sylvanas was never my character personally. I gravitated more to people like Uther, Kael, Illidan etc but I am cognizant of the fact that she was SO beloved. I liked her, she just wasn't a favourite for me. It breaks my heart that this is what she has become, and I'm fearful for her in the future. I would like to say when she comes back, it'll be great but it's impossible to say. As WoW players we forgive so much, but we never forget. I wonder what would happen if they dropped a trailer of Midnight and it showed Sylvanas going to Quel'thalas? I wonder how that would be met. Legion was S tier for me. If WoW was ending after Legion, I would have been satisfied I think. It pulled together so many wonderful threads and the content was just immaculate. The introduction of Mythic+, Suramar, the raids. Actually going to Argus. Finally meeting Alleria and Turalyon. It was brilliant. I also loved how they transformed Holy Paladin into essentially a battle medic. That was great! I appreciate you being so candid and sharing your feelings. I'm sure watching something like this just digs up some really horrible feelings. It wasn't an easy video to make. I was about to ask if you were still actively playing. I'm yet to purchase The War Within but I am going to pick it up soon. I've heard the narrative is improving, but when the bar is this low...it can't be hard, can it?
@@edd_TV I wrote this comment exactly after finishing the "Thoughts on Story" chapter in your vid. You're completely right it digged up horrible feelings, so many years afterwards but still they exist. Not saying I can't sleep at nights thinking of WoW's lore or anything, but it definitely feels like I was forcefully scammed out of a many years' emotional investment. And the feeling I get every time is an unpleasant blob of frustration, nostalgia and disappointment. Unfortunately, I think the damage done to Sylvanas' character is kinda irreversible. Regardless of how she comes back (if she comes back at all), she's destroyed. No one can forget her Saturday morning evil character ark. From the burning of the tree, to the "you are all nothing" cinematic to her ordering the burning of freaking dissenting books from Undercity's libraries (it's in the Before The Storm book and it felt so laughable - "see, in case you didn't get the message, Sylvanas is also a dictator/nazi!"), the damage is too grave. Not to mention now with her v.1 self back she's not the same Sylvanas. The only thing the devs could do, and I'd 100% support them on this, was if they straight up came out and said "some mistakes were made when writing WoW's lore after Legion, so we need to officially retcon this whole period and reset the world to how it was before the burning of Teldrassil, and we'll be continuing from the part where the big sword was plunged". I'd 100% be willing to suppress any disbelief and go with it wholeheartedly. And one final thing, regarding Danuser's stupid "Zereth Mortis is the final chapter in the Warcraft III saga": I remember when he said this, it was right after FFXIV's director had said the Endwalker expansion was the final chapter in FFXIV's 2.0 saga. Tbh I still wanna slap him when I see this clip and say "no, go away". I've played FFXIV for quite a few years, and Endwalker was such an emotionally powerful expansion, absolutely worth the characterization of the final chapter in an almost 10 years' saga. It was so well crafted, and in combination with Shadowbringers expansion (which I usually regard as the first half of FFXIV's final chapter), they are the absolute best game content I've ever played, like ever, and I'd probably go so far as to say one of the best pieces of art I've consumed. So to hear Danuser indirectly compare fking Zereth Mortis (even without its horrible dailies, just considering its lore and how it supposedly "ties together threads from WC III") to Endwalker made my eyes roll to another dimension. I really don't believe he was so out of touch with reality, there is no way, so it felt mostly like a jealous kid who was bitter because another kid made a better drawing. Generally that period I was playing both FFXIV and WoW, and the contrast between whatever abomination Shadowlands was trying to pass as serious lore at that time and Endwalker was seriously spectacular.
@@jtaboxI don't want to short change you with barely any words back to such a well responded comment, but you are just completely right with everything you have said. I'm so glad you were able to understand the Endwalker reference too and why I found that so ridiculous! Endwalker was one of the best experiences I've ever had, and the fact he was latching onto Warcraft III with this kind of stuff just drove me bonkers. I feel exactly the same as you do and it hurts. It gives me the exact same feelings the Star Wars sequels did, and if people enjoy those films then more power to them. But for me, it just hurt and felt wrong. You hit the nail on the head with emotional investment. I've been a Star Wars fan since I was a kid and a fan of Warcraft since I was about 11 or 12, so to witness both fall like this is just devastating for me. And I don't know how either find their way back. I don't think they ever want to talk about Shadowlands again, understandably so. I think they absolutely should have held their hands up sooner and came out and admitted mistakes. These are cracks you can simply never paper over and we are extremely forgiving as WoW players, but like you said regarding Sylvanas, we will never forget.
This expac destroyed everything about warcraft that made it iconic as an IP. Going full cosmic was tragic, the butchering of lore was tragic, the writing was an abomination of the highest order, the content drought was a disgrace, so on and so forth. Great video, subbed.
You're absolutely right on all accounts. It's a stain on Warcraft's legacy and it won't ever be forgotten. Thank you for watching, sharing your thoughts and support! I really appreciate it.
You just know theres still people at bliz who adore this game but for whatever reason they get shafted. I hope it returns to what it once was. But, i dont think i have any faith it will
I think that's really important to note! I think there are people working on Warcraft who are so damn passionate about it and want it to do well, and I feel the same about Star Wars. There are brilliant people out there who want to do good things, but it's not always their choice and that's heart-breaking.
In regards to lore, I think Shadowlands had a lot of actually fairly decent *ideas*, but their execution was lacking---which I feel is often the case for "bad" stories. The Shadowlands as a location held so much potential for oodles of lore, and a lot of stuff that really deserved a deeper dive ended up as footnotes. Not just the Jailer, but the SL pantheon as a whole deserved more. Since they seemed like such a highlight in the expansion, I wish that---since Blizzard decided to put them in regardless of whether it was a good idea---some of the legacy characters brought back were given more of a spotlight than what they ultimately got (like Garrosh, who is a favorite of mine). Arthas and Ner'zhul, who were retroactively made so intrinsic to the Shadowland's story, got practically nothing of note beyond Ner'zhul's boss fight, and barely any references at all. Additionally---and I'm a little biased as a DK main, who began that specifically because I thought Arthas and Frostmourne were the coolest things ever---to that end, I felt that the Ebon Blade as a faction were underutilized as well. Their biggest bouts of relevance lay in the SL intro questline and the Sanctum of Domination, where they mostly just stood around. Heck, I'm shocked that DKs as a whole felt a little underutilized in that sense. They're literally death-infused supersoldiers, technically created by the big bad, drawing their very abilities and rune magic from this realm, and I felt that they didn't do much to reference that at all beyond giving us more runecarving abilities. Thankfully Sanctum gave us some more runeblade models (or at least weapons with runes *on* them, even if most of them aren't glowing), but even then I still would have KILLED for more runed weapons or even maybe mourneblades (as opposed to the build-a-bear legendaries). But, again, I'm biased. Giving DKs tons of attention wouldn't be fair to the other classes, even if SL was theoretically the best time to do it. On a related (and more minor) note, I wish there were more notable and permanent visual notes that reference Anduin's experience being the Jailer's puppet for a while. Obviously there's the psychological damage and I can appreciate that they at least gave him the newer grizzled look in TWW, but things like keeping his hair color white/grey or having Shalamayne retain some of the changes it had when transformed into Shalamourne would have gone a long way about it as well. Taking all that away after defeating him felt almost like we were dispelling an Arthas-infused transmog set.
I agree. I do think there were a lot of great ingredients to make something special. It's the execution like you said. I would have loved more Garrosh. I know the cinematic isn't held in a favourable light, but it was so great how they handled him. I would have loved to have seen more of Garrosh, Varian and where was Tirion Fordring? :( I love that I chose a paladin because of Arthas and Uther, and you went the other way and chose a DK! I wonder if I started in Wrath, would I have taken a DK too? I do think DKs deserved so much love in this expansion. You are right, it wouldn't be fair but the potential for so much was HUGE here. I love this last part about Anduin. Considering it's the only real takeaway from Shadowlands, I think it's a great point to make. I remember reading theories about him being some sort of dark/shadow knight or something. It sounded very cool. I also love the idea of 'Shalamourne', that sounds amazing. Anduin's mental state is all we have from Shadowlands, so I do think they could have done more with it. Really great observation and ideas. I enjoyed reading this comment! Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts!
Shadowlands will forever be trash, the straw that broke the camel's back for me. They not only showed how death works in Warcraft while also retconning previous showings of it, but they made an oc in the Jailer and made him the mastermind of the entire franchise. Now any character that dies will not matter, since we can just go to Oribos and ask Pelagos to see them in universe, nothing matters anymore. I say goodbye and good riddance to Blizzard, all that virtue signaling and they had cosby room shit going on, then they permanantly ruin one of my favorite IPs that I put 20 years of my life into. FF14 has been amazing since I played after quitting WoW before 9.1, they actually care about their fans and story.
This is such a smart and important comment. You are absolutely right and I feel the same way. No matter who comes into our lives now and no matter who we lose in the future, we can just pop back into the Shadowlands and figure out where the WoW equivalent of the Sorting Hat has put them, and go and check in with them. Exploring death and the afterlife was a huge risk. I felt exactly the same as you in regards to 'nothing matters anymore', and I think I must still feel like that on some level because I barely touched Dragonflight and The War Within was the first expansion I never pre-ordered (still haven't bought it) and I never did the pre-patch event either. I'm still struggling a lot with the hurts Shadowlands caused. I know your pain all too well, especially knowing you are an original player of the game like me too. It sucks man. It really really hurts. On a happier note, I'm so pleased to hear you found a home in Final Fantasy XIV. I've been in and out of FFXIV since Stormblood, but I've been maining it since around 2020! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings. I really appreciate that.
How bad was Shadowlands? Bad enough for me, who has played WoW since 2006, to quit playing a month after its launch, and not return until WotLK Classic was released. The entire expansion of SL was a shitshow, and unless they completely retcon everything after BfA, I will (with 99% certainty) never return to retail WoW again.
I tried Dragonflight, but I couldn't stick it out. I had no friends who wanted to play retail anymore and the story just felt so messed up for me. I wasn't willing to just forgive and forget because the Dragon Aspects have showed up. It really upset me. I tried to play Season 1 of Dragonflight for a bit. I even +20'd all the keys on Mythic+ but I felt miserable. It didn't feel like WoW to me, so I quit. I came back for the Emerald Dream patch and quickly withdrew again. I came back again for the 20th anniversary, but I still haven't bought The War Within. I want to try it but I'm scared I'll still be suffering with a Shadowlands hangover and essentially have to admit to myself that it's over. I feel very similar to you.
I don't think they knew what they wanted to do with her to be honest. It felt all over the place. I don't think Arthas deserved to be redeemed. He was a bad egg long before he picked up Frostmourne or the Helm of Domination. I think the Culling of Strat sealed his fate in that respect! It was really dangerous of them eluding to anything Arthas, because they could never do him justice. I know a redemption for Arthas is quite a popular opinion, but for me I don't think he deserves it.
I absolutely Revendreth, it's themes and cosmetics for sure, I am trying to keep it civil, whenever Shadowslands is brought up, its like mentioning a really bad thing someone's ex done. It's because of that, I feel a complete indifference to WoW because of it.
That's a really great comparison, haha. I do view it as Voldemort: He Who Should Not Be Named! But I think we need to normalise talking about things, no matter how 'bad' they were. I think it's important to try and see the good (what little there may have been) and to remain cognizant that even if something was widely disliked, it's probably somebody's favourite still! I think I was tough but fair. There were definitely elements I enjoyed but on the whole, it hurt me a lot.
For me, the biggest blown idea in the expansion was Torghast. I love roguelikes, and that's essentially what Torghast was. But because they made it mandatory and tied player power to doing it, it just...became a chore. What was originally a lot of fun the first few times, became tedious in the extreme, and they only doubled down on doing Torghast by making the next step of legendary progress tied to EVEN MORE currency found only in Torghast. It was fucking awful. It's like the devs were so utterly petrified that someone might not want to do it that they made sure everyone HAD to do it.
I agree. Roguelikes aren't my thing at all. I don't even think I knew what they were at the time of Shadowlands release, so it was a really interesting concept for me. And I love WoW so the fact they wanted to build something like that inside the game sounded like a great introduction for me to learn more about it. But like you say, they had all the ingredients to do something wonderful but instead made it mandatory and turned it into a job. I think the only times I truly enjoyed Torghast is when I had a friend with me. Doing it alone was painful. I 100% agree with you. I think this has been Blizzard's stance for ages now. They want to create content but they will ensure you play it. That's the problem. It happened with Islands and Warfronts and it was even worse with Torghast. They are TERRIFIED that their hard work will go to waste if only 10-15% engage with it, as opposed to 90%. I'm really glad to hear you say this because it's so true, and more people need to be talking about it. I think it's important they create content that might not be for everybody, and maybe Delves is that first step? I can't really comment too much on Delves as I haven't played TWW yet, but I'm so glad to hear you have the same thought process with me on Torghast! Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts!
@@edd_TV Delves definitely feel like a good progression of Torghast. The progression feels somewhat like an alternative path to raids and M+, with similar, though lesser, gearing rewards after some adjustments.
-Bastion was an enormous slog snoresville zone I almost dropped the game there -maldraxxus was an amazing zone -ardenweld was just another big forest zone that every expansion has -revendreth was pretty cool -the maw was awful
Shadowlands could've been amazing if they just let us choose covenants better, not lock us down, not bloat everything with busywork. From an actual gameplay stanpoint it was pretty good with amazing art. I mean, the whole anima/stygia part - I actually like it. I was pretty morbid and honestly fit the universe better than some other more rosy comments. Since the entire universe exist as rings within rings - it does make a lot of sense. But as always, blizzard is terrible at delivering complex and deep stories. I quit in Korthia, and skipped DF because I was so pissed and annoyed... And Sylvanas being the catalyst to fuel souls and anima into the maw from BFA, makes sense when you know the story - but felt weird when it happened. I don't know, I like it. And I am I huge lore buff, owning all the books - maybe I'm an exception. And the jailed wanted to turn all of creation into an army under his control to fight off the "bigger threat". He didn't care about us nor anything, he saw all of creation as flawed non-unified, inter-fighting, divided. It again makes sense, how more unified can you be than completely dominated by one entity. AGAIN Blizzard is failing heavily explaining these parts, and how it all comes together. The biggest threat, isn't even withing our own creation, it's an outside threat so large that no mortal being can comprehend it.
I do agree with you on covenants. I really liked the idea of them, if we could have just moved freely from the get-go, it would have been great! I would have rathered not had power tied to them full stop but if we had the freedom, it would have been absolutely fine!
It's impossible to see it any other way, I agree. I think Blizzard have done a lot of bad with the game, but the WoW token is one of the most unforgivable for me. Just admitting defeat and allowing people to buy currency, it should never exist. I know you can obviously do it via gold sellers and stuff but for Blizzard to give in and provide a way of doing it too, it was so disappointing. But I think you're right. They fucked people over hard, and the saddest part is the players always yield. I dread to think how many bought WoW tokens.
@@edd_TVI was one of those people, I wanted to keep raiding with my guild but after 9.2 and me having one foot in with ff14 at the time I just quit. I came back in dragonflight and was put off even more with the power of friendship shit they did with it. Which yes ff14 has those moments, but gotdammit it’s called World of Warcraft
@@1shogunate696 I agree, it didn't feel like Warcraft to me at all. I tried my best but I just really couldn't connect with it narratively. I did make a video on this some time back called 'The Mourned Identity' where I spoke about the tone and how drastically Warcraft has changed over the years. I definitely get where you're coming from. I think WoW should have emotion but it shouldn't be so ham-fisted and prominent. There is always a time and a place. In Dragonflight it just felt like a constant.
@@edd_TV one thing and probably the only moment that I liked narratively in dragonflight was the malygos/sindragosa quest line, especially knowing how much the blue dragonflight has gone through. Was definitely the only moment in dragonflight that really hit me. I hope TWW and the following expansions are good, but I won’t be coming back to retail at all.
@@1shogunate696 The Blue Dragon Aspect storyline was very good! Definitely the standout moment for me too, for sure. I'm really torn on TWW. It's on sale and I want to give it a try, but I'm honestly just scared it's gonna make me feel the same way Dragonflight did. I just don't know if I'll ever be back properly again.
I really liked the end of BFA too! I loved Ny'alotha (although I still think it should have been a continent for its own expansion!) and I thought corruption was genuinely fun. I also think the beginning of Shadowlands was decent, but you're right. It went on for way too long and the cracks really began to show. It was a very hard time.
Yeah, it's very damning. It's made it really difficult for me to want to enjoy anything new they try and tell. It just trampled over so much of the lore and it honestly just wasn't very compelling at all. It's hard to want to trust them again. It's so much worse when you've been so invested for like 20+ years too. it really did feel like a lot of my teenage years was just being shot to pieces.
I think Sylvanas died for me as a character a long time ago. She has been a hand wringing villain for a long time, well before Shadowlands. I also didn't care one way or another about the Lich King. Arthas was a tragic character. The Lich King however was a boring, nothing character that would shake his fist at you and had a tough bossfight... The Jailer is the mirror of the Lich King. He is the Lich King without the history that built him up. Big mean blue guy who shakes his fist at you and has a tough boss fight. If the Jailer was going to be necessary, he shouldn't have been a 4d chess player. It should have been that he understood death magic, worked with Primus for domination magic, and gave it to the Legion in exchange for help. Anything beyond that is largely out of his hands. He isn't some super genius, and they should have actually shown him doing anything on screen. I also think that with the "infinite after lives" thing, we needed to actually SEE that. Unfortunately, they took the easy way out with everything this expansion. It all felt cheapened to try and push up the Jailer as being more than what he was ever meant to be. it was also obvious from day 1 he was the former arbiter. You mean the guy with a round hole in his chest is linked with the broken construct that has a hole in their chest that proudly displays a suspiciously round object in it? Hmmmmmmmmm. It felt lame immediately. But as always, the side stories are what make WoW actually better. It's where most of the lore comes from, and is most interesting in those places. The zones themselves, Maldraxxus besides, are well done. Art, music, even some stories... But it was too little to counterbalance the giant looming pile of crap quickly descending upon the game that was the Jailer. Zereth Mortis was a cool looking zone, but the implications it had for the lore of the game basically said that everything was just kinda.... 3d printed. The 4 covenant leaders are just.... Robots with no real history behind them. all the creatures and plants, the land and the water... It was all programmed and pasted into place by the first ones. It really takes the wind out of the few sails still going to be told that everything, even the super nature-y Ardenweald, is actually just this weird constructed place, made by some unknown peoples ages ago. It leaves one feeling apathetic towards the lore in general. Why do I care what happens with the void, when every force has a Zereth we could conceivably just..... Go to. Are the titans 3d printed? Was everything that ever was and is and will be just planned ahead of time by a Super Jailer who is even bigger and bluer?
I was never particularly over with her. She was cool, but definitely not a favourite of mine. I think I still enjoyed her up until Legion though. She just never struck a major chord with me personally. I was more Arthas, Illidan, Kael etc. You have crafted this comment really well. It was a great read. I found myself nodding and agreeing with everything you said. Thank you for taking the time to watch the video and sharing your thoughts!
Just want to mention that I think the creation catalyst was a great addition *because* it made raiding more optional for people who would rather do things like m+. I think the less mandatory content, the better, as it means people will engage with things like raiding because they enjoy it rather than for a gear grind.
My opinion about addons is that wow's interface is so polluted with special effects that addons are absolutely necessary to help people filter what's important and what's not. In PVP, for example, ppl look for a walking health bar, instead of an avatar flashing with light, throwing lightning like a tesla bulb, or surrounded by explosions galore. Another example is healing, when ppl keep an eye on a grade on a corner of the screen with many health bars they must use healing spells to keep them alive.
I don't disagree with that. I think addons have been a staple of the game for so long at this point too. Like I use plenty, I just wish players weren't so dependent on them. But we've been at a stage for a long time now where Blizzard design fights with things like DBM and Weak Auras in mind, so I get it. You are right, they are definitely helpful and in most situations I would say mandatory. I just wish it wasn't so.
@@edd_TV Although i said addons are absolutely necessary, i personally don't agree with it being mandatory. If you must use third party pieces of software (or whatever an addon can be described) to reliable play a game, it's a proof that that game is flawed.
I hated Legion (got unlucky with legendaries and my favourite class was ruined by a bad rework) so for me, the last good expansion was MoP. I wish Blizzard would just sell the IP already. I know it won't happen though.
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm under no illusions that Legion was far from a perfect game too and it absolutely paved this incredibly cruel road that WoW walked. I think Legion-Shadowlands was an immensely difficult time. If Legion was the only expansion to mess around with both artifact power and legendaries, I think it would be held in an even higher regard, and WoW would have absolutely been better off for it! Also hard agree on Mists, absolutely amazing expansion! I'll definitely cover it someday. I feel similarly to you in regards to Disney Star Wars. I just struggle so much now. I want to give myself to them, but I know every time I do I get hurt.
Lol what's with the Ragnarok music at the end? It is awesome. There is a lot I never knew about Shadowlands, but yeah Arthas appearance was completely unecessary. It is sad to know that the guy behind the Sylvanas that we liked was caught up in that Blizzard Lawsuit thing. They even changed the name of a semi-important NPC (Afrasiabi) that was named after him from classic. I think they should bring Denathrius back 100%, he was one of the most interesting characters.
The Ragnarok music features at the end of all of my videos! I'm not quite sure why. It's a game that's very close to my heart. 'm glad you recognised it! I can remember reading about all of the changes that happened with characters and places in WoW, Mac'Aree on Argus was renamed to Eredath etc. I think it's an important reminder never to do self inserts and nods to people. It was a really horrible time. I promise you Denathrius will be back!
To me SL's greatest fault is its long term impact.
It's one thing to be a bad expansion, have bad content, bad zones, bad features, or bad systems - all of which SL suffered from - but whatever problems come from those issues sort of just go away when the new expansion rolls around. And what you're left with are the 'bad' expansion's zones and vibes, which WoW's always been consistently good with.
Cataclysm wasn't great in my book, but then MoP came around. WoD wasn't great, and I don't like the BS time-travel elements it introduced to the canon, but once we were back on Azeroth and Legion did its thing, it was fine. I could say BFA left a bigger mark but even then... once you move on, you can kind of leave it behind. We don't have to contend with WoD's Garrisons or content droughts in the game's current content. Azerite Gear, Artefact Power, Warfronts, these are all a thing of the past, and the game moved on to better things.
But Shadowlands... Shadowlands touched SO MUCH of Warcraft, from its characters, its story arcs, its former zone stories, even the actual cosmic canon and setting of it, across all of WoW's prior expansion AND WC3, and it left a stain on each and every one of these things.
Sylvanas, Anduin, Bolvar, Arthas, Jaina, Uther, Tyrande, the Afterlife, Elune, the Forsaken, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF AZEROTH'S CULTURES AND RELIGIONS (through revealing that basically everyone's complex, nuanced and varied views on the Afterlife, Ancestors, Ghosts, Spirits, etc. was not only plain wrong, but completely irrelevant and empty.)
Be you an Elderly Tauren Shaman living and honoring the Spirits of the Land and your Ancestors or a Human worshipping the Light in Stormwind? Doesn't matter! In death, you're a blue angel serving as the Shadowlands' postal service for eternity, and your entire identity is utterly irrelevant because you can't remember any of it.
What's that? You're an Orc whose great-great Grandfather became an esteemed Ancestor of the family by dying a Warrior's Death protecting his clan in battle? Yeah, well, he ended up in Maldraxxus and died in the Arena upon arrival, turning his soul, his Spirit which you honor in your rituals, into just a cheap pile of Anima... too bad!
And let's not forget that the doors to the Afterlife still are not properly closed, because you can see Kyrians wandering around the 20th Anniversary Celebration grounds in Tanaris. So the DENIZENS OF THE AFTERLIFE just wander around in the open at the local fair. Way to just utterly ruin the integrity of the canon...
I'm autistic, and Warcraft and its lore have been a special interest of mine for most of my life now, and I can't put into words the sheer damage SL did for my love, care and interest for this setting.
Even now, in TWW's good hands, with good writing and world building and more than 3 years later, I doubt I'll ever care about it as much ever again. Even if the next 10 years of WoW are Wrath/MoP/Legion level of cohesive writing and world building, I don't think the stain and 'pain' of Shadowlands will ever be made up for or properly polished off.
This is perfectly put. BfA was the latest nonsense they've made after Legion's strife for solution against Sargeras, but Shadowlands literally obliterated every single aspect of anything related to the afterlife in the Warcraft universe. It is insane.
I feel the exact same way as you. I abandoned the game in the middle of Shadowlands, it was becoming unbearable. I finally came back in TWW and tried my best to give it a fair shot and keep an open mind but i just can't be made to care for it, the lore is so beyond destroyed. There's literally no reason to care for anything -- we're all just robots made in a factory.
The only significant characters then are up in space having an infinte war with their infinite armies... woo.
It's just so soul crushing to me, the wound still feels fresh -- BFA was super controversial and by the end of it everyone was super hopeful for the future -- This is gonna be the good one right? One bad expansion then one good one, right?
What came was an extremely rushed, badly made, uninspired mess of an expansion whose grand message was that nothing matters.
Side Note: I completely tuned out of the wow sphere after the announcement of the Dragonflight expansion, to me it felt like they didn't learn from any of their mistakes so I refused to engage with it.
I decided to check out what I've missed out on and, my god, this is the most AI-generated looking expansion I've seen. No offense to the people that worked on it but from the zones, to the story and characters it feels like an AI model was fed all of wow's best hits and it pooped out this thing.
You really hit the nail on the head here. Death has no more meaning in WoW, because we know if someone dies they'll just go to the Shadowlands and be okay. It's so stupid, and such an awful plot device that like you said, absolutely RUINS so many different religions and cultures. They really didn't think through the ramifications of this expansion's story on the whole of the Warcraft universe, and I really wish it was made non-canon, but they still reference it in future expansions, so unfortunately it's here to stay.
You've done an excellent job with your post. Despite how I'm currently enjoying The War Within and the relaunch of Classic, there is an irremovable stain on the very soul of all that is Warcraft.
I completely agree! Every expansion had its faults, even great ones, but they came and went while SL just poked a hole in the very heart of warcraft cannon itself... Even good expansions like MoP had their flaws and in this case it was daily quests and last patch lasting too long, but that is not what we remember it for. We remember it for colorful beautiful zones and fun stuff and great raids like throne of thunder.... Heck, even WoD had extremely fun leveling and great first raid, but it flopped later due to lack of content and too much garrison focus... In the end, none of those things left a scar so big like SL did...
>City of secrets
>No secrets
>No city
bravo
I'm utterly convinced it had to have been Tazavesh. Korthia was just dreadful.
@@edd_TV Tazavesh was supposed to be the capital. Korthia was supposed to be part of a drust raid that ends with the attack on arden weald and the tyrande sylvanas cinematic. Both ideas got scrapped and downgraded in their own way.
@@edd_TV Every day I touched the Korthia max research route I wanted to quit. Doesnt help that I was forced to do it because of being in a high end mythic guild. And that's coming out of the Disgusting place that was the Maw. Which Would have been completely fine had mounting in it been easier
@backslicer2543play worgen - you can mount. Just a tip when we get to shadowlands classic
@@frewthelookingglass860 Honestly words to live by! We're all gonna be Running Wild! I honestly do wonder if they will ever try something like Shadowlands Remix. I don't know if the audience could ever stomach it.
Never let Blizzard forget that Shadowlands retcons the undead campaign of Frozen throne to be the Jailer's forces vs Jailer's forces vs the Jailer's forces vs the Jailer's forces vs the Jailer's forces.
I wish they would come out and talk about it. I think we deserve answers or an explanation. I think it's insane that this is the product that was delivered. So much of the lore was desecrated and we were just told to forgive and forget because 'Look, the Dragon Aspects are here!' I want to know everything. I want to know their vision and why it failed. I want to know what the hell they were thinking with all of it. Not even from a place of anger, I'm just so curious how this is what we ended up with. There is no way this is the product they wanted to deliver to us, and the fact we never heard a peep about it is just shameful to me. There was absolutely no pay off with this expansion, besides Anduin's emotional and psychological struggles. We were leaving this expansion with less than we came in with.
Yeah... I think most lore fans just kind of say to themselves that the Jailor was talking out of his ass and was exagerrating his own influence.
just according to keikaku
@@TheSaival I was really hoping the "Translate to English" button would just say "Keikaku means Plan"
@@edd_TV Isn't there a book about this exactly? Something like an autobiography of someone's time at blizzard, the work culture there, etc? Maybe that might give some insight into what was going on with SL's writing process, who knows. If not, I'd love to see a similar book written that touches on those kinds of things, even if it's not blizz official. Maybe it could be like the "Epistle 3" blog post from Marc Laidlaw where he thinly veiled a potential plot outline for a hypothetical Half-Life 2 Episode 3 without directly addressing characters' names or using placeholder names for groups and events. It would be nice to have an actual Shadowlands autopsy just to see what happened and how we got what we got.
I will never forgive blizzard for what they did to Arthas, and turning the Helm into a Burger king crown.
The Crown of Wills has such a strange model. To go from the Helm of Domination to that is a crime in itself.
@@edd_TV It was an supermario based crown in an nutshell
Me neither. Never. I was already tuned out after BfA ruined N'zoth and Azshara but that was the moment I decided nothing that comes out of that dumpster fire of a studio is Warcraft and WoW ended after Wrath.
true. Arthas deserved better. He was such a good villain that deserved a better send off then that and even slyvanas got done dirty. the whole xpac was just a sin to the lore.
Burger King crowns are pimpin'
Oh, y'all call it Hungry Jack so they probably don't have crowns
Sylvanas allying with the very person responsible for everything that happened to her in the first place, serving him faithfully and never once questioning the plan or circumstances and then suddenly having a change of heart when she gets Arthas ptsd just cause she heard some words that reminded her of him. Absolutely TOP NOTCH storytelling right there.
Seriously though, SL is such a stain on the Warcraft franchise. How Blizzard managed to shit on 20 years worth of lore in a single expansion is beyond me.
It's a crazy notion to think that a guy who is referred to as 'The Jailer' is somebody Sylvanas could trust in regards to both liberation and freedom. Just insane.
@@edd_TV She never once stopped to look around her and realize that this guy also uses DOMINATION magic, the same magic that was used on her when she was still Scourge and was forced to commit atrocities. Like the entire thing makes ZERO sense. And only when she helped him reach the height of his power did she stop and say "Wait, this guy who calls himself the JAILER and uses domination magic is....bad?". It's actually sad how much they butchered this character beyond recognition. I know for a fact that Warcraft 3 Sylvanas would absolutely hunt down and kill Bfa/SL Sylvanas if she saw what she became.
@@Sara-it9se 100% agree. She was a far cry from what everybody knew and loved about her. She was unrecognisable.
@@Sara-it9se lol, the part of WC3 sylvanas hunting down BfA/SL sylvanas is so true. Not only was there no logical and believable character development between those two versions, they couldn't have been more opposite. It really is painful.
Her soul was scarred just like Uther's, therefor it was easier to manipulate her via Domination magic, right? Dont get me wrong I find everything they did with Sylvanas silly, but she didnt just faithfully serve the jailor... Her souls was broken when Arthas killed her. Probably not something the Jailor planned, but when she game ended herself after Arthas's death atop Icecrown, The Jailer probably saw her as the perfect person to manipulate, since she was already broken on multiple levels. (Still I feel no sympathy towards her, yet I already see that they'll probably drag her Soul back into the story in the Midnight expansion...)
I think the worst part about the ''we wanted to end the warcraft 3 saga'' is that we already had WOTLK doing that, but way better.
That's true. I think both Wrath and Legion were the 'truest' endings to Warcraft III we could ever get.
"An Karanir Thanagor,..."
@@edd_TV It was a marketing slogan. To compete with Endwalker.
@@Starsoul_TV 100% agree. Anybody who doesn't see that is kidding themselves, or had no idea what Endwalker was.
That statement was 100% stupid but WOTLK was not an end for the warcraft 3 saga. It wasn't even an ending for the Lich king storyline. The closing chapter was Legion.
They had to retcon the whole fucking lore after Legion with this stupid ass retarded cosmic forces dogshit because they literally ran out of source material after defeating Sargeras and the burning legion. They were the og bad guys in warcraft 3 and they were responsible for every shit in the story up to warcraft 3.
I just wish Bolvar wasn't treated like a baby and that Arthas didn't go out like a fart in the wind.
I had to cut a section on 'Returning Characters' because I was worried for the videos length, but I really wanted to talk about Bolvar. He was the poster boy for Shadowlands, the equivalent to Illidan from Legion or Jaina from BFA, and he was just absolutely ghosted. We could have had so much more stuff with him and Taelia. Bolvar was a huge let down and who knows when we'll see him again. I just don't feel like he really did anything.
Did you do the raid? Arthas went out in the most epic way possible.
i think you didnt understand the stroy concept. Sylvannas embraced the Deathmagic while bolvar held it back. Thats literally why he sat on that throne. to hold back the undead and death of the world. there are quotes from him INGAME that state this fact. he is holding back to not fall into the trap of this magic.
Arthas`? i would totally agree if this was LK arathas or "before frostmourne" Arthas BUT thats not him anymore. he is defeated. his soul crushed over decades of torment. what did you expect to see? a blond strong prince? a strong Deathknight? its gone. those are his past. he has been defeated on all levels. thats all that is left of him and his soul.
@@Nagria2112 nice point, but these two didn't do anything in the expansion where they could play some roles, the reason is because of Blizzard's p@litic@l agenda
1:09:33 more like shoved out so the writers could simp for sylvannas more
My reason for hating Danuser saying "Shadowlands is the final chapter of the first book of Warcraft" is mainly... Legion was meant to be exactly that. The Burning Legion, the main antagonists of the series since the major lore revamp in WC2 were finally defeated. Sargeras imprisoned, Kil'jaeden and Archimonde dead (although Archimonde's fate can change if Blizzard feels like it due to the confusing nature of the end of encounter cinematic vs the intended mythic ending). Other major leaders of the Legion are either dead or forced to wait who knows how long before they are revived. The Legions war machine and portal network were also destroyed during our raid on Antrous. But most importantly, their way to accelerate their regeneration was removed. Finally, Velen watching as the portal that was made by the Sargerai Keystone closes and makes that sign of relief is why Legion will always be the true ending of the first "book" of Warcraft to me.
Oh man, preach! If Legion was the end of World of Warcraft, that would have done it for me. Of course they still have stories they want to tell, but you are SO right with this. Great comment.
Legion finished off all the main Warcraft 3 characters....except for...
Warcraft is a story without end, 20 years later, WoW is still drinking from WC initial lore
They spin the wheel and check who is the next baddie
- Old Gods / Void lead to Cataclysm, Pandaria, BFA, Dragonflight and war within
- Scourge lead to Vanilla, WTLK and Shadowlands
- Burning Legion lead to burning Crusade, Warlords of Draenor, Legion
Who will be the next Void / Burning Legion or Scourge Related main villain?
And that's it my friends, how they develop the lore
I got a big feeling Sargeras, the Titans ANDDDDDD..... The one... the only... ILLIDAN STORMRAGE, will make a return in the world soul saga for sure. Only time will tell.
@@DaFreezeey For sure. Illidan and Sargeras are definitely coming back in The Last Titan. I would bet everything on it.
2 points you missed.
1. Death Knights got fucked on an expansion that could be alot about them.
2. Blizzards balancing was so bad on Legendary Equipment that they did serious nerfs to them AFTER people had spent real IRL money on upgrading those items.
That's very true. I don't think they cared terribly about any of the classes or races with this expansion. It was just full steam ahead with covenants. They sacrificed fantasy and identity just to push them.
For me, this is actually the best part.
People who spend REAL money, are unironically the one who ruined gaming. Screwing them after they wasted their money is golden.
Sucked out so much of the mystique of the wow afterlife, like who know when a lore character dies, it gets put to work in a forest, become an angel police man, become a zombie soldier, or a vampire / drained soul, and if that wasn't bad enough, it was the blue balling of having lore characters not interact with eachother , like baine and his dad just not meeting
Exactly! All we'll think about now when characters die is where the WoW equivalent of the sorting hat is going to put them. I wanted to do a chapter on 'Returning characters' but I was worried about the video getting too long, but you are SO right with that. There were so many opportunities. Admittedly there were some nice 'Stay a while and listen' moments, but there was some crazy potential here. I'm a bit biased, but where was Tirion Fordring?! It was a shame that Varian was just reduced to a cinematic. I wonder if that has any relation to the way he died. I feel the same about Saurfang. I like their inclusions but you are absolutely right with this. I also think there should have been more focus on Bolvar, seeing as he was the poster boy for Shadowlands. He didn't exactly do a lot.
8:20 To quote another WoWtuber: "I can't believe they ended her story by having her jumping off another fucking tower I'm sure someone thought they were sooooo clever for that." /s
Oh my God, I can't believe I never made that connection!
This is the most sense Shadowlands has ever made; and it still makes no sense.
Haha, I can't take credit for the story recap but yeah, even reading it back and putting this video together at certain points I was just facepalming and thinking 'What?!'. The story of Shadowlands is not easy to digest at all.
I think it says a lot about Shadowlands that during a PANDEMIC, when we couldn't go out or function properly, I, a no-life who's spent the last decade or so playing WoW almost full time through its worst moments, didn't feel like playing anymore during Shadowlands and took multiple breaks throughout the expansion for the 1st time ever even though I had nothing else what-so-ever to do with my time.
I met my spouse through WoW during the pandemic and we got to know each other through no-lifing it together.
It was SO BAD that World of Warcraft, the notoriously addictive time-sink of all time-sinks, as a video game, an MMO no less, the one my spouse and I shared and enjoyed together as a hobby, made for such a SHITTY escape from COVID and confinement, that I preferred staying away from it for weeks at a time and only come back for the occasional RP event or Raid/Dungeon with friends...
It's like having a brand of water be so shit that someone dehydrated and lost in a desert for weeks wouldn't want more than a sip if they found it in the shade.
Thank you for engaging with the video and writing such detailed comments! I'll respond via this one, just so you're not jumping around notifications!
I feel exactly the same as you do regarding emotional investment with the game. It's a GIANT part of my life. I never thought I would start the game at 14 years old and it's still going when I'm 33. We've all had highs and lows, but I feel 99% of the player base all shared this low together, and it was rockbottom if we're being honest. I will say your observation about the 20th anniversary with the Kyrian is impressive. I never clocked that! But you are right, I feel canon and the narratively has gotten incredibly wonky.
I strongly agree with you. WoW was always a safety blanket for me. I suffer with depression and anxiety and I've had hardships in my life. One of the biggest constants in my life was World of Warcraft, and I no longer wanted it. That REALLY confused and hurt me. The one cure and remedy that has that helped me so much in my life was no longer working. I relate to that so much.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts across these posts. I really appreciate it.
@@edd_TV Thanks for reading and answering! I greatly appreciate your videos, because they give a reasonable, grounded and mostly 'unemotional' analysis of things I've thought and felt myself over the years and it's interesting to watch!
Thanks for the work you put into your videos.
@@Dehrild Your comment was beautifully written and once the dust settles with this video I will remove my disclaimer pinned comment and pin yours! Thank you for your kind words and your support. It means a lot.
The biggest issues with the Shadowlands were it's wildly extensive retcons of enormous swathes of the most foundational lore of Warcraft. Making the formation of the Burning Legion, the creation of the Lich King and all of this stuff all just 'part of the Jailer's plan' rather than the pivotal moments in Warcraft's story that they are cheapens them to unimaginable levels. It was a bad expansion for many reasons, but the damage it did to Warcraft's foundational lore is why I will never forgive it as an expansion.
I get that they wanted to expand upon Warcraft's lore to prep it for future expansions, but there are ways to do that without cutting down the base that you've created. I legitimately hope that they completely backtrack on the Shadowlands lore changes, as it seems they've subtly been doing over the course of the War Within. I know they can't just come out and fully retcon Shadowlands, but fuck would it make me feel good if they did.
This was beautifully written. I agree with everything you have said. I agree that they can't retcon Shadowlands (as much of a delight as that would be), but I do wish they would have come out and talked about it: their vision, why it went wrong etc. I think it's maddening that we received what we did. There's just no way this was the product they wanted to deliver or story they wanted to tell. It really annoyed me that they completely pissed over 20+ years of lore, retroactively added this guy who was the biggest villain of all time essentially, and then just expected to us to let this slide because 'Look everyone, Dragon Aspects!'. It's just absurd to me.
when will people FINALLY understand its called plot twist not retcon? let me ask you a simple question: how would YOU write a plot twist into a story.? by telling a lie and then revealing the truth? yeah thats what they did in SL.
Stop acting as if everything in the past is gods word. we have an event called "the great ordering of the cosmos". someone wants you to believe in lies and sorry to say but its kinda obvious if you look and think.
honestly i think you are wrong with "expand upon Warcraft's lore to prep it for future expansions" because you can see obvious hints of it going back to classic wow. its not "new" the titans do bad shit. we seen it all the time. (alagon? wiping out countless civilications?)
you didnt understand what they try to tell you and thats why you mad at retcon even tho this was planned to be a reveal. "finally find out why the systems in our cosmos are so fucked"- the expansion.
death and finality have no meaning? RETCON!!11! no... sit down, ask yourself - why would an ORDERED cosmos have a forged Gods of light and why can i teleport and leave a place like shadowlands like it nothing? it means something.
SL is here to stay, and fun fact was so obious that people predicted that we live under a Fake Veil in the sky that cloaks the SL as we seen in the launch trailer and the titan lies/pov of history books.
i get it. people want to be told a cool sotry and dont want to activly engage with a story. i get it. BUT we live in this story. we are inside the lies and try to unveil them since Vanilla.
and before you ask: no its not a retcon that titans are bad- not all titans are bad infact. and remember for next time: WHY?
@@Nagria2112 you're hallucinating. Go back and read my post. I never said anything about the Titans not being potentially bad, you are correct that was hinted at and seeded as far back as Vanilla. My critique was specifically the retconning of the foundational lore of the Burning Legion and the Lich King.
The Jailer was not hinted at. The only time the Jailer was even remotely hinted at was Legion, and even then it was clear that they still hadn't solidified their idea of what the threat in the Shadowlands would actually be that Odyn had sacrificed his eye to. It was just kind of a generalized presence.
The Creation of the Burning Legion and the Lich King WERE firmly established. There was not a single hint that they were anything different than they had been written before Shadowlands came out. It quite literally wasn't until Shadowlands that they were changed. That isn't a plot twist, that is a blatant retcon, as plot twists typically require prior seeding and foreshadowing that they exist as an idea before they're implemented.
@@b.d.a.8719 correct, which is why the World Soul Saga feels so much better.
this is the thing that makes me the saddest. wow has always been really ridiculous in terms of story; it's always been convoluted and they just pile on so much because you always have to escalate but shadowlands was so much of them trying to like... simplify the wrong things in the least satisfying way possible. we didn't need to change our understanding of how death works in this world, we didn't need everything connected together via a random guy as this huge mastermind. there's so much stuff where it feels like if they don't just completely ignore xyz from shadowlands and act like it didn't happen i don't know what they're going to be able to do.
If Shadowlands taught me anything as a writer is that writing a story where you go to the afterlife of a long-standing franchise is a herculean task. You're generally better off just not ever physically going there and not going into extreme detail on how it all works.
I couldn't agree more with you. How can you ever create something to satisfy everybody? To write the final word like that is a monumental task! It was incredibly risky and it has ruined a lot of mystique now I think. Regardless who we meet or encounter, whether our allies fall or we vanquish our foes, we know exactly where they are going to go now. Life leads to death, and death now leads to the Shadowlands. I think it's worse when you really look at the gravitas of it all too. What is actually satisfying about going to the Shadowlands? Potentially becoming an abomination in Maldraxxus? Having your memories wiped as a Kyrian? It just sounded awful for everyone! I think we're all familiar with 'sometimes less is more' but pulling the veil back like this and the story they told was incredibly brazen of them.
Wait, wait, wait. The death of Argus was what broke the Arbiter??? Because it wasn't built for titan deaths?
Wow good thing no titans had died before, huh. You know, like... ALL OF THEM by the hands of Sargeras, then resurrected by him to try and break their wills, succeeding with Aggramar???
What an absolute mess. I thought I knew everything there was disappointing about Shadowlands, but I learned something new today. Thanks!
I'm sorry to have stuck that knife in you, haha. Thank you for watching!
@@edd_TV All good, it's a really cool video. It's important to be fair and also bring out the good things in an universally disliked expansion, and there certainly were SOME cool things about it.
It's just a shame they had to convolute everything so hard and kill the very concept of death in the setting. There simply cannot be any stakes afterwards, and that's a major problem of fiction to try and grapple with. They should honestly retcon Shadowlands to be a nightmare vision that the Y'shaarj inflicted upon us as he works in tandem with Xal'atath, one so real that everyone believed it and folks like Anduin carry genuine physical scars from something that didn't happen. Alas, they're not going to do that, and the can of worms remains on the table and open.
@@thesunthrone I'm glad you were able to see it that way too! You are absolutely right with this. It stripped so much back and was incredibly damaging to future storylines.
Thank you for watching and your kind words!
Not to knit pick but the only reason Argus specifically went to the SL was because he was pumped full of so much death magic by the Nathrezim.
@@JayR-t8r You can't really nit pick when you tell me lore that was apparently only present in a damage control novel to try to salvage Sylvanas. Nothing in the game has ever shown this, nothing about Argus ever indicated that he is specifically death aligned, and RED is NOT the established color of death magic. He was red because SARGERAS INFUSED HIM WITH HIS POWER.
It just doesn't track in any way. How can the Nathrezim change a being's essence so much that suddenly the rules of mortality apply a titan while he's the thing that helps hasten the rebirth of all demons in the Legion? He's already socketed inside a giant system, he's working the magics of the Twisting Nether and pulling all the fel creatures to him, giving them fel to coalesce... and yeah, somehow, actually, he was infused with energies of DEATH and not a single other demon including SARGERAS HIMSELF, IN THE VERY MOMENT HE SUMMONED HIM FORWARD, noticed that? When all demons can LITERALLY SEE MAGIC because that's the very power demon hunters have taken from them?
I refuse to believe any this. Blizzard can write it and press it on paper and put it in a glossy hardcover book if they want, it can be put in wikis and it can be told to me in youtube comments, but I'm not reading it. It's all just scrambling post-hoc rationalization to try and fit a triangle shaped peg into a hexagon shaped hole. Yeah it sort of fits, but there's a LOT of empty space and it clearly shows they got it completely wrong.
Thanks for the factoid though, really made my day worse to learn of another way Shadowlands existing ruins everything else that came before it. They couldn't even leave bloody Legion alone, had to tarnish that as well. I am honestly livid. Thanks.
Ultimately what it did was ruin the concepts of death and finality. Because of this, nothing will carry any weight to it, any future sacrifices made by characters will feel hollow and have a bare minimum impact if any at all since now we know what death means.
Many of these cosmic forces only really work if we cant understand them, it's most of their appeal, they exist beyond human comprehension, so it lets imagination fill in the gaps. Once you remove that veil and turn them into just another villain with defined edges, then your story no longer has legs, which in a nutshell is the problem with WoW's more modern storytelling.
Exactly! It's so grating that we know when we lose any major character 'Oh I wonder where they are going to get sent to in the Shadowlands?' I can't just scrub it from my mind or decanonise it. I think sometimes there are things we just shouldn't explore and it should be left to interpretation. Less is more! Really great comment. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
you are THE perfect example. okay lets examine this.
you get told a story. You go looking and find something different. thats called a plottwist and not a Retcon. its called a Plotdevice.
To SL: death and finality - stop being mad and think: WHY are the SL the way they are? WHY can you port there and leave again? WHY do we exract anima? why do we judge souls? its a fake system put up to extract power. its clearly the same mechanism they used on Argus with demons. death means nothing because its fake. its literally hidden behind a "fake" sky as revealed by Sylvannas.
Cosmic forces: i dont even understand what you mean. we clearly know what their goal is, who has power now and who wants it back. it shows that people cared more about nippel boy having bad dialog then people thinking about the overarching 20 year long story. we have a event in wow thats is literally called "the odering of the Cosmos" where they forged the Naruus btw....
yes maw is awful, yes gameplay had problems, yes Zovaal could have been better but that misses to whole plot of SL.
I've very rarely seen afterlife content done well in a setting. It's too often over explained or made mundane. Ff14 i like because it's simple reincarnation, not too much we know beyond that. Souls die and are reborn perhaps with small bits left over from previous lives. Death stays meaningful, it fits well into the established lore. The other is the ttrpg wraith the oblivion. Awful to play but the world building is phenomenal. You're a ghost of the afterlife, and no one knows what the fuck is going on. It's just chaos and confusion, feels bleak and mysterious, like a proper afterlife.
@@kazsixteen7359 I will say that the stuff they did with FFXIV was masterful, especially in Endwalker in one specific zone! I'll try and refrain from being too spoilery for people!
I'll have to check out that Wraith game, that sounds fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
Letting Teldrassil burn to help the Winter Queen doesn't really seem like good justification for such a thing.
True. I think this part of the story recap may be a bit incorrect. Somebody did comment saying that: Elune didnt allow the burning of the world tree to happen to send souls to her sister. Elune says "In the WAKE of tragedy", meaning following events of tragedy, what Elune did was allow the souls to pass to the Shadowlands instead of holding them in Kalimdor as she usually does when night elves die. I doubt Elune could have stopped the burning/would as we have almost no instances of Elune directly stepping in to stop tragedies.
I still vividly remember the following on the Covenant Ripcord:
Alpha/Beta/PTR: "we promise we can balance it, but if we can't there's a ripcord"
Live release: "there is not, never was, and never will be a ripcord, also a ripcord is technically impossible to make"
Patch 9.2: "we're pulling the ripcord we said didn't exist and couldn't be made, see we're listening to player feedback (that was overwhelmingly given by every single player in all Alpha, Beta, and PTR cycles, and in every single patch from 9.0.0 on)"
I remember it too. God, this comment is like a time machine for me. This was the final straw for me in terms of feedback I think. At least in this sort of 'era' of WoW. I know they are doing a lot better now, but it was honestly ridiculous listening to Ion and J.Allen Brack constantly coming out with 'We hear you.' because they clearly didn't! They chose to do whatever they wanted and made us play the game their way, and NO GAME should ever do that! They have themselves to blame for that and I really have no sympathy for them. I think I'm tough but fair on that. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
I think my biggest problem with the shadowlands is the fact that they explained how death works. This makes no sense to me. From this point onwards every villain we kill will just go to the shadowlands. He even could use one of our portals to return. Its also weird from a powerscaling point. We killed beings who work for death itself. And now we are fighting against wolf's again xD.
The only thing which is equally bad in my book is the fact that warlords of draenor opened the door for time travel and alter alternate realities.
It's such an important thing to focus on. You're right. No matter which ally falls, no matter which enemy we vanquish, we know exactly where they are going. If we lose someone, we can just pop over to the Shadowlands and see where Pelegos has put them. It was just such a risky idea to explore death and the afterlife.
I do agree with you on WoD. Timey-wimey stuff never sits well with me, but to play devil's advocate a little bit....WoD did give us Gul'dan and in turn, Legion. I think Legion was AMAZING but it paved an incredibly cruel road for WoW to walk. Between Legion-Shadowlands we have seen some of the ugliest WoW has ever been, and I'm sadly cognizant enough to know that Legion is responsible for it.
You're absolutely right on both counts though! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings.
Get ready for alternate timeline Jailor to add everything that happens in the future to his master plan.
@@edd_TV Sry for the late replay. I think we could have had Legion without WoD and the story would be tighter. Actually, WoD ruined the Story in a sense. WoD established that the Twisting Nether exists outside of Time and Dimensions. But i never understood why the Burning Legion wants to invade our Azeroth. They could just pick an Azeroth where the heroes are not present, capture the world soul or whatever and portal it over to wherever they need it. After WoD they had infinite Azeroths to invade.
But let's forget WoD for a second. The burning Legion was always set up in order to return one day. We only stopped Kil Jaeden from Traveling through the Sunwell. It was always clear that he would return one day. So we don't need WoD to get the attention of the Burning Legion.
And the Circle of Shadows or whatever the name of the black temple faction was, is still active. They could have gathered Gul Dans Skull and resurrected him, or they could fall to its whispers. Ok the WoD Gul Dan is more of a mix between Ner Zul and Gul Dan but they could have made a kick ass Orc without going to alternate Draenor.
I still like WoD because it had super cool raids. But i really didn't like the story.
@@Trashloot Some interesting choices for sure. I feel weird about WoD. I remember it having some kickass cutscenes but the narrative was very odd, and I just can't ever get behind something like time travel. It's just a bad idea I think. I agree though, the WoD raids were great!
I know it's a faux-paux, but I sincerely believe that what Shadowlands did to Warcraft was so bad, narratively and lore-wise, that literally the best thing they could do was to retcon is as some sort of collective fever dream. Any real consequences are a result of the shrooms. Just rip off the band-aid, There's simply no defending it.
That's honestly the dream, isn't it? (no pun intended) If we had just woken up and none of it was real, I think we would all feel better for it. Sure it's a cop out and it would be really cheap and lazy but given the irreparable damage Shadowlands has caused, I think we'd happily let it slide!
Let's not forget that the rather coherent and comprehensible story you resumed at the start was ABSOLUTELY NOT delivered in that state throughout the expansion. Almost ALL of what makes up the Jailor's 'personality,' his plans, his motivations, Sylvanas' motivations and part in all this, as well as the motivation behind most of BFA's story was ENTIRELY missing for most of Shadowlands' run time and instead delivered WAY too late into the expansion through a freaking BOOK.
The vast majority of Shadowlands' narrative was incredibly tedious to even track, let alone comprehend, as it was delivered in agonizingly small pieces, out of context for most of it, and through some of the worst writing and in-game delivery they've ever produced.
And despite having it put into chronological order, from a birds eye view, in as coherent and linear a fashion as possible, it's still an abysmal story with awful world building, convoluted plot points, catastrophic pacing and a criminal absence of any form of cool, fun, or excitement.
I'm someone who followed the lore of the franchise religiously ever since felling admiral Proudmoore with Rexxar's axe in WC3.
The reddit post Edd used is literally the only reason I was able to make sense of the whole expansion's plot.
THAT'S IT.
My biggest gripe with shadowlands was that none of the zones were connected, except the Maw and Korthia. Even as a mage who could teleport back to oribos whenever i wanted it felt like it took forever to get around the expansion
That's exactly why I wanted to mention the zones for this video! It just felt so strange to me. It made Shadowlands feel like a theme park. I really love both Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor because they feel like actual continents to traverse. Oribos was just an airport in that sense. I think they really wanted to try something new, but it didn't work for me at all.
Took the "world" out of World of Warcraft
It probably wouldn't fix every problem with Shadowlands, but if it was Ner'zul instead of The Jailer, we would have probably accepted the Shadowlands story more easily and readily.
I think so too. I don't think anything could have saved it, but if it was a character we were more familiar with then I think we may have been more forgiving.
Shadowlands was a straight up disrespect to the all established and beloved lore. The writers had 0 respect to what was before them. That's what made me angry.
I've felt this anger twice: once was with Warcraft and the other Star Wars. It just felt like the people with the power had absolutely no idea what they were doing, or like you said just a complete disregard to the lore. We left Shadowlands with less than when we entered it. There was zero pay off and so much destroyed in its wake.
I'm not even a meta player, but when you have two identical toons and one is doing substantially more DPS, at a lower ilvl, simply because of the covenant, it's hard to argue that there isn't a problem with the system. Even just playing in the world was less fun if you were in the wrong covenant.
Agreed. I don't play meta either. It's just completely unfair. And why we should all be forced into the same thing? We're talking about meaningful choice, but the meaningful choice comes down to one question: 'how much DPS would you like to do?' It was just such a weird way to approach a system like this.
Who cares about DPS? And they made covenants changeable pretty soon.
Almost everyone. When one covenant is leagues better for your class than the others you notice. Power should have never been tied to covenants and it should have all been pets and toys and mounts and cosmetics much like how “covenants” work now.
@@angrykagg421 Exactly this.
I remember early in SL before Korthia, that my speculation was that the Jailer was desperate for anima because a soul had risen in rebellion against him and he was losing control of the maw. Denathrius sent him the anima stores of Revendryth but it was not enough.
My early SL headcanon was Arthas was sent to the maw but his power was still so great, not even hell could contain him. The jailer was proud and refused to admit to all he was losing control but Denathrius was a close friend and he could tell him in secret.
And it even would have put a new spin on Sylvanas... the Jailer reached out to Syl asking for her help which is why she shattered the helm (that could have still been a source of power Arthas was drawing upon even from the depths of Torghast.
I think it's fascinating that fans can conjure up better narratives than what we actually got. (It's also really sad because it shows their incompetence, but I think it's amazing how passionate and clever fans can be) I love the sound of this. I mean the bar is so low that most things would be considered better, right? But I think this sounds awesome. Thank you for sharing!
People usually complain about wow not being edgy enough. But truth be told, whenever wow does go into edge or darkness. It always feels forced.
The maw felt like the full combination of forced. sure bad things happen but i never felt it. Anduin commited horrible acts but i never saw it.
That's so true. We've lived in a World of Warcraft for ages now where they tell us and not show us. ''Show, don't tell' is something they have struggled with for a long time now.
Vanilla Eastern Kingdoms was pretty edgy and dark. Also Wotlk. Also legion. None of it felt forced. There were decent writers for it.
@@Chris-ve1stNaxx was perfect
Why TF did Baine go to the Shadowlands? I mean just sat there for 2 years.
I think Baine must be the most slept on WoW character of all time. He really needs to be shown some love! I know they did something with him in Dragonflight in the Ohn'ahran Plains, but he really needs to be in the spotlight for something. Why didn't he get a reunion with Cairne?!
Still can't forgive Blizzard for setting up a perfect Arthas return and completely wasting him. He should have charged in with us to take out the Jailor.
I couldn't trust them with anything Arthas related. I didn't know what I wanted with him. I was scared at any prospect of seeing him again because I didn't think they would be able to do him justice.
@edd_TV who know. Maybe with Metzen back they can bring him back in some way. But i get that Anduin is now currently doing what Arthas redemption arch would have been. So hopefully they do Anduin right.
@@Nick-4K Somebody did comment saying that Danuser was quoted saying that if you 'die' in the Shadowlands then you are gone for good, so I do think Arthas, Garrosh and the Jailer are all finished. I do think Anduin is the modern day Arthas for the audience, but he's so much more polarising. Everybody loved Arthas. I think they want to move away from him, but come the finale of the Worldsoul Saga and of course going back to Northrend for The Last Titan, we are surely going to get some references to him, the Lich King and Icecrown! I just hope whatever happens it works out. I do think you're right about Metzen being back in the saddle. I know he's not perfect, but it can only be a good thing considering what we have been through in recent years.
@@LarvaS-hj1eq True, and I don't get the idea of Arthas turning into a redeemed hero SL. Arthas was stuck in his ways... All he did was his will, Zovaal even said Arthas gave him the finger trying to pull his strings.
please god stop asking for this type of thing. this is why every big budget movie is a remake or franchise, this is why stories never have good conclusions, this is why characters are all garbage this is why retconning is just expected. You cannot make a good character arc if the character is never allowed to be done, you're forcing creatives to create the trash you're complaining about.
one thing that confuses me is that the helm being destroyed shatters the sky and you even state that when a relic of the shadowlands is destroyed the energy goes back but why did that then not happen when frostmourne was destroyed during ICC ?
overall shadowlands could have been great if it was instead of "the realm of death" had just been another world we traveled to.
That is a great observation! I wish I had an answer for you. I doubt Blizzard do either. I agree. I think the potential and ingredients were there for something very cool, but it's just a realm of nothingness and irrelevancy now. I doubt it will ever be referenced again.
"The Jailer was behind it all" was honestly has to be one the worst retcon's I've ever seen. IMO it ranks up there with "somehow Palpatine returned"
Urgh God, it really does. TLJ pushed my limits but Rise of Skywalker really took the piss. It was just unforgivable.
Shadowlands was the expansion of just wasting your time for no reason (no mount in the maw, time gating everything, CONDUIT ENERGY, super long grinds, rare spawns with hour+ respawns that now die instantly also have a 1% drop chance on mounts, etc.)
It honestly felt like we were being punished.
The time gating was the final nail in the coffin for me.
My brother quit WoW during WoD and I still remember him deciding to try WoW again and it just had to be when Shadowlands came out lol. Four years later at the start of War Within did I manage to convince him to try WoW a second time and we've been having much more fun nowadays, currently progressing heroic Nerubar Palace and doing delves together haha
Oh man, that's so unfortunate. I don't begrudge players quitting in WoD because there really was nothing going on. It was a really lonely time, but coming back for Shadowlands couldn't have been more unlucky! I don't think any of us could have known how bad it was going to be though. That's really great that he has managed to reconnect with WoW in TWW again and you're having a blast together now! Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
that's crazy considering TWW is even worse. I guess since you don't do any pushing content, or crafting you're probably just enjoying the visuals. But if you're not doing anything of importance, SL can be just as enjoyable, so you both probably just got on a bandwagon /shrug
@BusJustice "pushing content" ya mean sitting on your ass in Dornagol being declined for keys for half hour, finally getting into a +10 key, for only to go south because people can't stack up or use cc's, or interrupts and falls all part before or after the first boss - and all you wonder to yourself is "how did these people even get their 2.5k rating?".
There's more to TWW that so far I've liked, the lore, and renown. Especially that renown is account wide and each of your other characters contribute to it.
@@RandoCDN87 haha, yea- back before you were playing, renown was given for doing well in the dungeons, 2 birds 1 stone. Back when the game was good in SL.
But now, since it's separate, like I described, you just confirmed people don't learn or push, they just "grind renown" in world content where it doesn't matter if you virtually afk, blizz gives you stuff. Then when you're bored of doing virtually nothing, you do more virtual nothing on an alternate character I guess? Fascinating.
So of course you're not interested in learning the dungeons. and pretend the lore is good even though all Skardyn were destroyed before TWW, and Baelgrim dies in the campaign. The xpac is a huge stinker.
@BusJustice the game was terrible in SL, stop the cap.
Reminder: Sylvanas, Frostmourne, and the Helm were ALL retconned because of this expansion.
Sylvanas's character was COMPLETELY ruined because of this. You CAN'T tell me that Sylvanas would willing serve the Jailor, committing genocide for the man, and forcing Anduin to ALSO SERVE the Jailor. Sylvanas was born from the genocide against her people that led to her being forced to serve Arthas. Shadowlands had god awful writing that butchered one of the best characters because Danuser and the other writers failure.
There are ways to 'fix' Shadowlands's story, but virtually all methods of this still have Sylvanas's character ruined due to Blizzard forcing her drastic shift since Legion. She was a character that lived and died for the Forsake, in Cata she even told Garrosh that she serves the Horde and took the Val'kyr to ensure the Forsaken wouldn't 'run out' since they can't reproduce. I think the Jailor COULD have been good, but they should have tied him to the helm in a different manner. Perhaps having him be the catalyst for it, forged for Kil'jaeden along with Frostmourne in an attempt to have Sargares aid him in escaping The Maw only to be betrayed once the artifacts were made. This could have led to him seeing through the helm and Frostmourne, watching the world shift and witnessing the Legion's fall, leading to Argus dying being a happy coincidence that then led to him getting one last chance to truly break free. With that, have everything just be him and maybe have him attempt to take control of Bolvar and the entire Death Knight order, only to fail with Bolvar shattering the helm HIMSELF. There are ways to write a 'good' Shadowslands, but the writers failed YEARS of actually good writing.
The downfall of WoW Lore truly started in Legion. Cataclysm was a lack-luster final raid, MoP had great story and was only hated because 'EW PANDAS!', WoD was great and primarily hated because of Garrisons and people JUST seeing 'EW TIMETRAVEL!' in an expansion with an interesting twist on characters from old with one of the BEST raids in history, but Legion? Legion killed off Ysera in an extremely random way, it push Sylvanas to take the first true act that showed her character being twisted via attacking the Val'kyr Maiden, and the iconic 'YOU GET AN ASHBRINGER, YOU GET AN ASHBRINGER, YOU ALL GET AN ASHBRINGER!' push for your character being the chosen one. We aren't a 'band of heroes,' we are a singular 'chosen one'.
Let it all out, my friend. I feel it too. I honestly feel like this video was a public airing of very private pain. I have tried to say nice things where I can, but I cannot defend anything regarding the narrative. Just nothing.
You are absolutely right with what you have been saying. I do think people line to hone in on areas to attack with WoW and their expansions. Everything has a beacon or landmark.
WoD was garrisons
BFA was azerite
Shadowlands..well take your pick really!
I do feel that Legion-Shadowlands was an immensely difficult road for us to walk. Legion is one of my favourite expansions, if it isn't my favourite it's second to TBC but I do acknowledge that Legion absolutely had its faults. As a paladin main, I did not enjoy having the Ashbringer at all. It felt wrong. I felt similar about shaman's with Doomhammer, and look at the state of Thrall now.
I really appreciate your passion. I'm absolutely on board with your takes. I'm sorry if this video dug up a lot of bad feelings for you, but I'm glad you shared them with me. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and thanks for watching!
Sylvanas was always a prick, and never cared for justice, freedom or any value since WC3: Frosinone Throne.
Danuser and rest of the writing team should've never been writers in the first place. It's baffling how much the stupid same shit is still going on in the lore.
It's a permanent stain now. No matter what characters or villains we meet and vanquish, we know exactly where they are going. We might never see or hear anything about the Shadowlands again, but we know that's the final destination. Exploring death and the afterlife was such a crazy risk.
@edd_TV Exactly and the current story isnt much better either. Blizzard is dead all hail new blizzard but im not the target audience anymore. First expansion i refunded after 1 day
@@JussiMustola90 Wow really?! Why? I'm really curious!
@@edd_TV Why story isnt better or why i refunded? 1) It's still written like HR is in the same room. All old characters are turned into neutered versions of themselves (khadgar is in wheelchair now).
2) I felt like i've seen so much bad storytelling with years of feedback going to deaf ears. Gameplay is still good as always, but the magic is gone if you know what i mean. It's not made for me, a core gamer and Warcraft fan anymore and i dont think they understand and even hate the old lore.
@@JussiMustola90 I'm sorry to hear that man, but I resonate with your words a lot. I think I felt this way about Dragonflight. You're absolutely right that the gameplay of WoW is still great, its WoW's biggest strength no doubt! But Dragonflight narratively just felt so strange to me. It didn't feel like Warcraft.
I think you have touched on something really important, and I have had similar opinions in the past. Sometimes I do think they strongly dislike elements of the past, Arthas is a big example. I think Arthas is the gold standard of WoW but he isn't THEIR character, if you get what I mean? And of course he's so beloved and talked about, and I think that bothers them. Because they know they won't ever be able to create a character like him. It's just my personal opinion of course, but that's the impression I get
Danuser was the worst thing that happened to this game.
It's all just so desperately sad. Even the narrative for Dragonflight couldn't help exonerate him. That was his true test, to have something from start to finish. I think praising Game of Thrones Season 8 really set the tone a lot, and I don't like to reference it because it's been done to death, but it's a pretty damning phrase and it really did define his tenure I think.
He destroyed so much lore-wise it's almost difficult to believe. Like, WoW's lore should be their crown jewel, so many years of development, in-game and in books, and I'm pretty sure it even has its financial value for the company, didn't anyone think for a second that "hey, maybe we shouldn't dismantle everything, destroying characters and past and possible future narrative threads, especially since y' know, it doesn't seem to be particularly popular with our audience"?
It's kinda the reason I wonder sometimes if Danuser just became the scapegoat, as in, how could one person do so much damage without the support of other higher ups?
Danuser is a no talent hack. Even the good things that happened while he was there, like Dragonflight 10.0 (he left after that and wasn't involved beyond 10.0), I don't think was him, I think that was him taking credit for someone else's ideas. The only thing Danuser was interested in was banging Sylvanas. He proudly claimed to have a body pillow, and wrote a "story" that retconned Nathanos into his self insert so he could ship himself with her.
I'd say Metzen wasn't much better, maybe they were able to make the story entertaining, but that's pretty much it. Oh, and he was an amazing voice for Varian, Thrall and Vol'jin, almost forgot that. 😅
@@jtabox And how is that any different from what they've been doing all this time? Maybe it was more condensed in SL, and so what? Do you have the slightest idea just how many retcons, inconsistencies and other nonsensical mistakes were made even before Cataclysm? Danuser wasn't the one who messed up Garrosh's character, made Thrall act out of character or killed Cairne off-screen in a novel.
Warcraft 3 was a great starting point to develop a story, but very little of that potential was ever fulfilled.
I played all of SL and I had 0 idea about 90% of this story I literally never knew what was going on
I don't think you're alone with that one. I think it was a super confusing time for everyone!
[JAILER VOICE] WERE YOUR EXPECTATIONS NOT SUBVERTED?!
[sends you to the Maw]
Damn you blue nipple man, damn you.
Torghast is a perfect example I think of Blizzard's flawed scorched earth philosophy when it comes to new mechanics/content, where they have a great idea but if it underperforms they trash it entirely. Personally I would've loved Torghast if it was a route to get gear, cosmetics, and complete challenges. Unfortunately we will probably never get anything like it again because Blizzard deemed it a failure. Delves may be considered a spiritual successor but it's not even close to the cool things and mechanics you could run into in Torghast.
It's a shame to see so much hard work and creativity go to complete waste every expansion because Blizzard is unwilling to revise it. It's like "Hey I built a new car!" "Why did you give it 5 wheels? That sucks!" "Damn, nothing we can do but drive it into the ocean then."
Well said. They are unapologetically absolute with their content preservation. I can't speak on Delves sadly as I haven't purchased TWW yet, but I am planning on getting stuck into it soon and I think I'll make a video sharing my thoughts on it; the narrative, delves and such!
I think you have summed up their outlook on content so perfectly with that. I'm very much of the mindset of: 'if it's going to take a while that's fine, just complete it!'. We need to see the polished and finished article, not something that will get chopped and changed or completely revised in a future patch. We need consistency and a real vision. I'm very interested in Delves but I've heard bad things about them.
When you consider the amount of tech that had to be developed to make Torghast work.... and maybe 2% of that has carried forward to other expansions. What a waste. It was Borrowed Power: the Dungeon within Borrowed Power: the Expansion, but it had potential. Unfortunately it was a place that felt like it didn't want you there... set within another place you were actively discouraged from being in. They tried to save it with changes, steering various gamplay types toward Torghast... it wasn't always terrible... but it wasn't anywhere near as cool as it could have been.
@@basicfacekick I agree and I'm glad you were able to see the potential it had, rather than just looking at the negatives. I didn't want to make this video just to shit all over it, it's important to be objective so I really appreciate you seeing it that way! You're absolutely right. Why do they make these things just to throw them in the bin? I can't speak for Delves and I'm sure it draws on Torghast a bit, but Torghast is something that frankly should still exist today. It should have events and different themes every week. It's by far and away the most misused and disappointing feature they have ever attempted. I hope they can do it justice someday because the idea is very cool! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
while Baine is a sweet character, he hasn't been relevant for like 5-6 expansions so if they had killed him off it may have been for those reasons.
That's true :( It makes me sad. Why didn't we get a moment with him and Cairne?! Baine has been so pathetic in WoW. He really needs a big moment.
@@edd_TVTrolls are purely cosmetical now apart from the Zandalari
Rokhan literally didn't appear in Shadowlands or any of the cinematics, despite him being the chief of the Darkspear
#vengeanceforzuljin
@@The-jy3yq We are LONG overdue some sort of Troll themed patch I think! I don't recall Rokhan being hugely important in BFA either, or maybe I'm wrong? I know he was one of the bosses for the Warfronts. There is much to be desired with a lot of these characters, for sure!
Shadowlands was the only expansions that took away more than it gave lore-wise. It ruined a lot of the lore mystique by fleshing out a mostly uninspiring and limited afterlife, retconned and annihilated the Lich King/arthas as a puppet, and gave us a terrible derivative villain who was retconned as being bigger than Sargeras or the Titans.
Beautifully said. You have hit the nail on the head. It was unforgivable for me.
@ I almost said the same, it definitely was unforgivable. The Lich King was and is the crowning piece of lore for most WoW lovers. It’s almost like Shadowlands was written by someone who had no experience at all.
@@Forge17 I think you could even carry those thoughts into Dragonflight. I was more of a spectator than a participator for Dragonflight, but even keeping up with the story in the background, it did often feel at times that the people writing the characters aren't familiar with them. It's almost like the ship of Theseus I think. So many people have been replaced and now we're at a point where it's still Blizzard, but it's not THE Blizzard, because the old guard have moved on. (Some rightly needed to be moved on) The people working on the characters aren't the people who created them, outside of people like Metzen of course. And that has really showed at times I think. Of course nobody lives forever and the show has to go on, but I can only really compare Shadowlands to the Star Wars sequels. I think there was a lot of confusion and a real lack of education and understanding with the characters.
The Lich King is an icon. For a lot of people, he is Warcraft! And this was the biggest slap in the face ever.
The disrespect paid to Arthas and the Lich King lore as a whole checked me out of the story going forward. Blizzard can try as hard as they want to make better stories going forward, but to me that means nothing when they left what I loved most about the series in ruins. I'm just here for the gameplay loop, and to replay through the Legion DK order hall campaign to relive my favorite times.
@@Malacine I feel the same. I still haven't quite shaken that off, and I fear I never will. I tried to pay attention to Dragonflight but it just didn't grip me at all. I think the gameplay will always be he most important aspect to the majority of the player base, but it was devastating for lovers of the lore and story.
My greatest dislike for Shadowlands is how they character assassinated all the characters especially Uther who went from moving on from his anger of Arthas to choosing to remember him as someone who loved his people in "The Lightbringer's Redemption" to someone who was so vengeful and filled with rage that he threw Arthas in the Maw. As far as I'm concerned everything after Legion is fanfiction with the Blizzard label on it.
''Remember Arthas, we are Paladins. Vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do, if we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, we will become as vile as the orcs." Such a great line from Warcraft III!
I do think they tried to counter this with the whole 'Not vengeance, justice' line,. but you are right.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Few things:
Don’t forget what Danuser said “once you die in the Shadowlands, that’s it that’s the end.” So Arthas, Garrosh, The Jailer they’re all gone forever.
Cross-faction came into the game. And while that is a good thing to play with people it ultimately has killed one of the pillars of WoW: the faction war and political subtext.
Also, grateful offerings should be removed from the game. They don’t make sense even now.
Interesting quote from Danuser. I didn't catch that! I do wonder if they will ever try and incorporate any of the story of Shadowlands into the modern game. Like if Khadgar did die and went into the Shadowlands, we could go back there and talk to him for whatever reason, something like that. I don't think they should, I think it would be damaging for the story and game to bring back anything Shadowlands, but it does make you think.
I LOVE that you mentioned cross faction, I've talked about this in another video mine titled 'The Mourned Identity' if you're interested in checking that out. I talk about how drastically WoW has changed narratively but also identity wise too with cross-realm, cross faction, sharding etc. Really good point!
@@edd_TVUltimately, that part of the lore kind of makes death a bit lacking. It’s kind of like how Dragonball has the dragon balls to revive people. It removes the weight of death that made Varian’s sacrifice so meaningful😢
Shadowlands was my first real expansion and while I am fond of it, it did not do the characters justice. thanks for this video and I’ll definitely check that other one out.
@@Junglewarfare That's a great comparison with Dragon Ball. Thank you for engaging and your support! I really appreciate it.
It's wild that Danuser made that quote of "you die in Shadowlands you die fr fr" and then have Maldraxxus, the afterlife whose whole point is "when you die in it, you just get recycled into a new skeleton golem thing and keep going". Like, that's the whole point of the DEATH SKULL COLLOSEUM in the middle of it!
Man's so cooked he can't even keep his own expansion's lore straight at baseline level.
stop it, get some help.
the whole faction war was played out by mop. the political manuevering is fine, maybe a rogue element trying to reignite conflict but seriously, how many times has the faction war just suddenly vanished because new bad guy shows up. More times than the average person has fingers. its so bad its become a meme like "its merely a setback".
I can't believe you went into so much detail and didn't even mention the level squish and new starter experience in Exile's Reach! Definitely made levelling alts much easier, though I fear it also made the new player experience more disjointed than ever. Either way, it was the reason I reinstalled retail for the first time since Cataclysm, because I was curious about the levelling changes.
I then ended up playing Shadowlands proper on a very casual level, without really interacting with the endgame much. My husband and I had a good time duoing the Maw and Torghast on weekends, and to be honest I didn't get why people felt quite so salty about the expansion. I was primarily a Classic player and my attitude was kind of: "Isn't this just what retail is, a bit of superficial fun on the weekend and not much more?" And then Dragonflight came out and was SO much better and I started to see why people had been disappointed in Shadowlands, haha.
I also really liked your story recap at the start. It actually makes the story sound pretty OK, but I swear most of that was not explained very well in the game, or at least in such a disjointed manner that it was hard to follow and care about all the details...
Oh I wanted to, believe me! I had to cut two chapters because I was so worried about this videos length. It's my biggest project so far. I wanted to dedicate a section to 'Returning Characters' and also dive into the levelling changes with the Threads of Fate and so on! You're absolutely right about Exile's Reach! It's something I reference in my other videos, but in hindsight it was probably worth of the extra mile of inclusion. It did a lot for newcomers! Thank you for mentioning it!
I can't take credit for the story recap as it's from Reddit, but I'm really glad to hear you liked it! Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Okay, I'm not the only one that did not mind SL.
@@edd_TVthe story recap was very well done, tho i also understood the story of Kingdom Hearts; so i am kinda resistant to what people call convoluted i guess. Very enjoyable great video, stopped after Legion and this was a splendit deep-dive to catch up with this bottom tier era of WoW.
@@DjTrustNo.1 Thank you so much my friend. I can't take credit for the story recap, I was simply reading a post from Reddit! I really appreciate your kind words. Thank you for taking the time to watch! I really appreciate it.
After all the crap SL through out, the final nail in the coffin was Sludgefist. I had enough of being punished for another player's stupidity in raids. And you're right, chainlink was an easy mechanic, unless you're linked to some spaz that can't stop moving around when there's nothing to dodge. I thought about coming back, then I saw that Arthas was reduced to a 35 anima drop and I was immediately glad I stopped giving Blizzard my money.
Ah man, I'm so sorry to hear you say that! I loved that fight so much, but you are right. When it was really time to lock in and people were screwing up, it did get grating. I can see where you're coming from with this. It was very punishing. Something that always bothered me in WoW is how players constantly 'wasda' in combat, like why?! Just stay still and press your buttons! I've never understood why so many do that. It seems like a very weird way to stay adrenalised or engaged, lol.
I'm sorry to hear you completely checked out, and I'm similar. I did play Dragonflight season 1 but not for very long. I don't have any friends who play WoW anymore so it was really lonely for me. I also think I was still suffering from the Shadowlands hangover a lot. There was a lot of aches and pains that still haven't healed. I didn't participate in The War Within pre-patch and I still haven't bought it. It's the first time I never pre-ordered an expansion, so it says a lot I think. I did subscribe for the 20th Anniversary, I couldn't resist not grabbing the Judgement set, but your feelings are very valid. Thank you for taking the time to watch the video and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate that.
I hated Shadowlands because it ruined any idea of the afterlife. It didn't emphasize enough that there are other afterlives (missed opportunity to show actually lore established afterlives like the eternal goblin beach party), it shoehorned in a big bad that has never existed before and there nobody cared about him. It screwed over established lore and characters, and the maw and no flying between zones was just awful.
I wish they had just ended the addon with "you wake up after a long slumber. It has all been a nightmare."
I completely agree. It felt like there was nothing good to take away from this expansion. It was just torching everything in sight, and pulling back the veil with the afterlife was just so risky. I think Blizzard tried two herculean tasks with both time travel in WoD and then the afterlife with Shadowlands. It's an impossible job to please everybody when you're writing narratives like this I think.
I'm with you on that. I really wanted some sort of crazy N'Zoth fever dream. The fact all of this just happens and then we look the other way because it's time for the Dragon Aspects and the Dragon Isles was really annoying, because Shadowlands is a permanent stain on the legacy and lore of WoW now. Like you say it's canon now in that sense. Life leads to death and death now leads to the Shadowlands and it'll always be that way. It's just a real shame how poor everything was executed.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
They're so weird for acting like Arthas is an irredeemable villain, but Sylvanas is just a helpless victim.
I do think trying to shirk the blame from Sylvanas was a really really bad move. Acting like she is totally blameless and it was somebody else and not really 'her' has just damaged her character and actions immensely. I didn't want the Arthas redemption personally but it would have been interesting to see something with him, perhaps conversations with Jaina and Uther etc. The Sylvanas stuff is absolutely mindboggling to me. I don't think they had any idea what they were doing anymore and were just too scared to kill her off.
It wasn't bad, it was fucking apocalyptic, the concept was cool and they fucked it up so badly, how could they be planting the seeds for this since BfA and still manage to make it that unequivocally shit? They took an expansion about the afterlife and cool necromancers, fallen angels, vampires (and bioluminescent frogs) and somehow made it lame as fuck, not to mention the massive content drought
the dungeons were pretty cool, though, necrotic wake and plaguefall are my all-time favorites, the sire Denathrius boss fight was pretty sweet too.
it was the fact we lost so much in BFA too. Like what was all of this for? Like we sacrificed two fantastic and very much anticipated antagonists in Azshara and N'Zoth for this. We could have had both Nazjatar and Ny'alotha as continents for their own expansion. Instead they were kicked to the curb and this was the grand finale. It was unacceptable. I definitely agree with you on both the dungeons and Denathrus, but the pay off overall was non existent and the hurt still hasn't gone away.
Shadowlands felt very out of character for many old time WoW players. Idk it just felt wrong seeing certain classes yield Covenant Spells that wouldn't make sense in the original lore.
That's a great point! It stripped back a lot of identity with classes, which had been happening long before Shadowlands to be fair but this really didn't help.
@@edd_TV Shadowlands increased class identity by reducing spec identity, because Asmongold kept crying about it. Which was a huge mistake, in my opinion. Having only one rogue spec have Poisons made Poisons feel more special.
@@edd_TV Yeah. There was so much existing rich lore they could've used for new expansions. Instead, they opted for the oversused trope of creating some new big bad guy (who we've never heard of) pulling the strings all along. It feels lazy and unsatisfying...
tbh maldraxxus might be my fav shadowlands zone mostly for the color palette. first impressions are that it's just a zone full of ugly gross dead stuff, but the artists were so so careful with lighting and color throughout the zone that it stands out to me. it's hard to make "zombie hell" look beautiful and yet the art team did it, mad respect
Yeah I feel bad that it didn't resonate well with me or I didn't have much to say on the zone, because they definitely kicked ass with it! Thank you for sharing your thoughts on Maldraxxus!
I've just started playing SL as a lvl 80 achievement hunter/collector. I don't care about the lore. However from my perspective all four original zones are beautiful for different reasons. Being able to fly straight away and aerial each zone. You can tell a lot of work went into building each area. It's a shame for those that followed the story that it didn't resonate the same
The mere fact you still cannot skip layers in Torghast is testament to how bad this place is.
Really?! I haven't been back there since Shadowlands. Honestly I shouldn't be surprised! They don't give a toss about anything that's come and gone. All they care about is what's current and what's coming next. We didn't get a skip for Siege of Orgrimmar for God knows how long! (I know this is quite a niche example and not everybody cares about mount farming and stuff, but I hope you see where I'm coming from with this example)
@ I’m saying why should I have to complete layer 1-11 when I could easily jump straight to 12 or 16 to get the achievements. I guess that is their reasoning the investment of time?
@@josephsaric401It's very strange having to complete 1-11 if it doesn't offer anything. It is just a waste of time, yeah. A means to an end. I feel like if they aren't prepared to preserve Torghast then they should just strip it down and allow players to do whatever they want with it. Restrictions make no sense now.
Usually when the players hate something, it's not that bad. Shadowlands is the exception. It's so, so, so, so bad. It's worse than WoD which was abandoned after launch. It makes a mediocre FF14 Dawntrail look like a masterpiece. It's fucking shit.
I do really try and look for the positives and solutions if I can, but it really is indefensible as far as the narrative goes. I can understand what they tried to do with the systems and features but a failure to listen, they were their own worst enemy.
Haha, one of my friends said to me a few weeks ago 'Who is worse? The Jailer or Wuk Lamat?' I had to answer the jailer of course, but Dawntrail is definitely very polarising too. I have plans for a Dawntrail video down the road!
Agree to disagree. DW is worse than SL
@@edd_TV MY brother in christ, i'm almost done watching your whole video, and it couldn't be more obvious to me that you're a quiet lover of shadowlands. embrace it homie! i didnt play it, but aesthetically it looks pretty.
@@proofofmyexistenceI don't play WoW anymore and Shadowlands is largely responsible as to why. Just because I have the ability to praise certain elements of the game doesn't make me a 'lover' of it.
Some of the zones were very nice, yeah.
"If players hate something, it's not that bad" is exactly the kind of mentality that brought us Shadowlands.
If you are not listening to the players, who are you listening to, who are you making the content for ?
If the vast majority of people hate it, then it's bad, that's it.
A thing often forgotten is that the reason Sylvanas went nuts in BFA/SL was because the alternative was Jaina. If she hadn't, Jaina would've gone mad with hatred and gone full Garrosh. There are remnants of that version of her in the beta of BFA.
I do wonder what may have unfolded there! The dreadlord theory I remember well!
I don’t care how much setup they gave it makes literally zero sense for sylvanas to be able to beat bolvar (lich king).
She used to be such a cool character before BFA now she’s just been turned into an annoying girlboss character.
Also why would they let her go at the end tyrande had every right to kill her.
I think if she was going to die, it had to be at Sanctum. I think they wer too scared to kill her off. She is very important to the franchise, but she's now one of the most hated characters so it's very difficult to answer why they let her live. It's impossible to predict if her return will be met well either.
To be honest I feel like Castle Nathria was one of the best raids they've done in a while the mythic progression felt so good that tier and I just feel like Shadowlands overall was a huge wasted potential along with WoD and BFA :(
I really liked it too. I think if I wanted to hold it in the same breath as something for progression personally I think I might compare it to The Nighthold. I really enjoyed progressing both of those. The potential Shadowlands had was genuinely huge. It just felt like half of a vision. There is no way what they gave us is what Shadowlands was supposed to be. This was a desperate attempt and throwing things together and seeing what would stick. I don't doubt the pandemic played a role in some of this but we can't put it solely on that - other games continued to deliver.
You're absolutely right about both WoD and BFA too. Both had tremendous potential. I always wonder what WoD could have been. And BFA just had too many cooks in the kitchen. BFA was telling so many different stories at the same time. We had two fantastic anticipated antagonists in Azshara and N'Zoth and both were done dirty in my opinion. Places like Nazjatar and Ny'alotha are continent worthy for their own expansions!
Mythic Council and Stone Legion were brutal😭
@@GodOfWar05100 Absolute nightmare fuel!
I started playing WoW mid-Legion. That gave me a wonderful impression of the game and I got hooked. I stayed up for the global launch of BfA and even killed Anduin half an hour before launch, it was absolute hype time. I was very excited being able to experience my first expansion launch, only to be hit with BfA. Once the novelty of a new expansion died down, I started to feel bored but continued on until the launch of SL.
Again, I was excited, but it felt like being shoved down the stairs a second time. Ever since, I haven‘t been excited for any expansion and have always waited a few weeks after launch to play, because there‘s this voice in my head telling me I‘ll just get burned by my excitement anyway.
I don't blame you. I can't speak highly enough of Legion. Honestly I adored it. Everyday felt like a privilege playing that expansion. I know some say they miss it and didn't appreciate it enough, but I did. I loved every single day of it. It's the only expansion where I never unsubbed!
Killing Anduin before launch is very hype, hahaha. It really sucks how it all came crashing down for you. I can relate of course, but I never expected it. Not off the back of how good Legion was. I was like 'This is it, this is the modern golden era of WoW', and then like you say.....we got BFA. By the time Shadowlands rolled around I didn't really know anymore. I wanted to be excited, but I was also pretty exhausted and annoyed with the narrative of BFA, but I was willing to give them a shot because it's Blizzard and it's Warcraft!
Similarly to you, I was never excited for anything afterwards. I bought Dragonflight and I lasted 2 months maybe. I want to get excited for the Worldsoul Saga, I really do. I just don't trust them anymore. Shadowlands destroyed what little faith I had left in them, and whilst they might be taking positive steps with Dragonflight and maybe even TWW, I'm just scared I'll be disappointed and then have to admit to myself "This is the end of the road I guess". I hope you find enjoyment in it again someday. I love WoW and I want it to be the best it can possibly be.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and thank you for watching!
A lot of people might want to comment 'We didn't need a video for this, we all know Shadowlands is bad!', and that's a fair comment to make. However I think it's important we try to remove emotion and be able to revisit these topics and try to be fair and look at the good (what little there may have been) and the bad. Retrospection is important. These videos are also for people who perhaps quit or didn't play a certain expansion. I'll give my take on the expansions and hopefully you will give me yours! Whether you agree or disagree, I'm always happy to engage and have conversations about the games we love!
So what was your favourite/worst thing about Shadowlands?
Honestly, maybe it was SL was the first time I actually raided, but I enjoyed the raids.
Sadly I didn’t do Nathria until it came back into the raid rotation in the final season, but yeah, I thought they were all enjoyable. The dungeons were also okay. I’m not the biggest M+ player, but I enjoyed…most of them (didn’t realise like Tazavesh that much, and I hated both of the Maldraxxus dungeons).
@@silverwolflucky I think there were elements of all the raids I enjoyed too, but Nathria was head and shoulders above everything else for me. I thought they did a really great job with it. It's great that you had a chance to do it via Fated at the end! Theatre of Pain definitely had its challenges for me as a healer but I surprisingly got on with Plaguefall well! I only ran Tazavesh maybe 2 or 3 times because I wasn't playing regularly. I didn't bother running Mythic+ when it was in the rotation, but I wish I did! I'm confident they will probably bring it back somewhere down the road! I was surprised to see them already using dungeons in the Mythic+ pool from Shadowlands in The War Within so soon, but it makes sense. They are built and ready-made for it, as opposed to bringing older dungeons up to speed with this new system! Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Nah, it was a good video and it was good reminding what SL really was about. I rly miss Legion though :)
@@grinampwns Thank you! I desperately miss Legion too. I think we will definitely get Legion Remix in time!
@@edd_TV Any time! Just wanted to have a little bit of positive input regarding Shadowlands (I appreciate it wasn’t the best, but it was my first full expansion since Wrath; and I sucked back in the day!) Yeah, looking back, it wasn’t fantastic and had a lot of issues, but it wasn’t entirely for naught at least!
I honestly was never a fan of the various and countless retcons, revisions and altered themes for the lore. I didn't enjoy Night Elves joining the Alliance and overally losing their savage yet graceful nature, becoming more like the High Elves instead of Warcraft's take on the "Drow Elves" of high fantasy. Forsaken joining the Horde and losing their sort of independence, mostly being written as untrustworthy to other members of the Horde, or downright abusing their goodwill to go behind their backs and becoming evil.
But I gave WoW's story a chance regardless, it also being my first MMORPG helped due to a lack of decent competitors at the time for the genre. But slowly overtime, the retcons becoming more flagrant, messier, less coherent, and even worse, derailing what made the original lore good in the first place. BfA and SL did exactly those things. Whilst there were lore changes throughout all expansions, from TBC Draenei appearance, Illidan and his cohorts, etc...
To WoTLK with how the Helm of Domination is now integral to holding the Scourge's control, that there must always be a Lich King (until it's not), Muradin being alive and was relegated to just sitting on the Council of Three Hammers, being somehow the least important of the three, the Aspects doing literally nothing to stamp the Scourge advancing during the events of Warcraft III, etc...
To Cataclysm, bringing both Nefarian and Onyxia back for nostalgic points, same as well for Ragnaros, Cenarius revival, Goblin shaman (really?) etc...
MoP was quite the breath of fresh air, introducing new lore, adding more instead of riding the waves of nostalgia. The Mantid was very well done, so did the Jinyu, Hozen and Pandaren, even to a lesser extent, the Mogu, especially the Thunder King. It was just everything else: the tiresome faction war, Garrosh becoming increasingly more generic as a villain, instead of an antagonistic force as he was, the Sha was promising, but ended up being too irrelevant a plot thread when 6/7 of them dies at the launch and first patch.
WoD then rode that nostalgia tail again and reduced Garrosh to basically a footnote to jumpstart it, and again, ridding the majority of threats in just the launch and first patch, because they're just orcs with modern weapons, the same foes we have fought for *years*. The biggest highlight of WoD was expanding on the Arakkoa, they've gone from just small facet of enemies in TBC to an entire culture of people that was once the shining pillar of Draenor, and like the Mantid, was done extremely well
Legion was good, great at times. Honestly, the best retcon has ever been done is the Broken Isles being just the Broken Shore, and everything else was new and fresh to be written. Suramar and its lore was amazing, refreshing. Though the sheer silliness of having the Nightborne joining the Horde because Tyrande was somehow written to be hostile against her own people still confounds me. The TBC salvaging was probably the most apparent for Illidan, taking the blame away from him for mistreating Outlands denizens onto the greed and disobedience of his lieutenants. It made him weak as a leader, and even worse, incompetent. It was also a somewhat half-baked "redemption arc" wherein he was never "evil" but was just ignorant of the events around him. Maiev was also massively retconned from the events of Cataclysm between her, the Highborne, and her brother (She was opposed to the Highborne rejoining the Night Elves society, massacred a few of them, and was placed in jail by her own brother, who becomes the leader of the Wardens), All the Ulduar changes to the Prime Designate, to how Valkyrs are made, everything in regards to Odyn, essentially. Oh, and Argus being a World Soul instead of just being a planet housing the most advanced race Sargeras wanted to use as commanders of his legions.
Those are just the few I can name, plenty of others yet remain over the years. Though I was never fond of them, I didn't mind because they didn't cut the overall narrative to ribbons, they were still somewhat decent addition to the lore, not excellent by any means, but good enough. The most egregious for me is still to this day, the Faction War. It kept being a dead horse being beaten, defibilated, and beaten to death again and again to stoke some nonsensical conflict between the Horde and the Alliance, only for them to work together yet again at every expansion. I had thought it ended in Warcraft III, but it kept being brought back, until it was put to a head again in MOP, which was, to me at least, the weakest aspect of the lore. And I thought it would end again during the events of Legion, seeing how the Order Halls filled to the brim with Alliance and Horde affiliated members, working together, speaking to each other like they were friends. I thought that by that point, we'd have peace and there would be an uproar going against the more radical aspects of either factions that just wanted conflict as a plot thread
Boy I was wrong when BfA opened up with that cinematic. It sucked so much enthusiasm out of me to see the Factions are, yet again, at war. Though the trailer made it out to be that the Alliance was the instigator this time around, so a part of me, and a few of my friends who also enjoys discussing the lore, were invested in such. But then the War of the Thorns happened, the burning of Teldrassil, and the Siege of Lordaeron. Those events killed what hyped I had, slim it was, for BfA. It didn't matter how interesting the various Loas of Zandalar are, nor the sinister nature of the Drusts, nor how the Tide Sages diffrentiate themselves from what a Shaman, or what a Mage is. Because now it's another godsdamned faction war. The Azerite plot thread is also uninteresting. So Magni, you're telling me we're saving the planet, by using the blood of the planet, the same thing that the nefarious and greedy forces are also using, to save it? But we're firing off lasers and throwing chunks of rocks at them instead of producing war tanks and cannons, so we're the good guys! It also never sat well that Azshara, a figure that was explored in countless materials, ended up not having an expansion to herself, but just a patch and a raid, and was immediately left forgotten for the threat of N'zoth.
Shadowlands needed to correct a lot of the lore, it needed to be good so BfA can just be forgotten. But we know how that went. Your videos have been very coherent in stating what was and wasn't great about it, so I will only go about its lore aspects and lost potentials. Despite going to the litera realms of death and afterlives, Blizzard heavily missed out on the ultimate nostalgia bait that they could have made. Imagine all of your dead heroes, appearing here. Heroes and Villains of all of Warcraft's past, and not just one note characters either. Only Uther, Draka, Alexandros Mograine, Kel'thuzad, Kael'thas and Ysera were present. Why? Why not go all out? Where's Anduin Lothar, Antonidas, Terenas Menethil, Anasterian Sunstrider, Korialstrasz (Krasus), Rhonin the Red, etc etc etc... So so so many characters with established lore to bring back so that they, in their familiarity, introduces us to the different aspects of each afterlives, instead of writing more new characters that won't be relevant after the expansion they were introduced in. The biggest sin of them all is not utilising the elephant in the room for Anduin's tug back to the Light and the forces of good - his mother, Tiffin Wrynn. She was just a one-off character that was introduced in the comics and was promptly killed in that same flashback. When Anduin was taken, she should have been the core aspect in regards to his character development. We've already got enough with Varian and his bonds with Anduin, and I do enjoy some aspects of it being highlighted in TWW in the brief time I played it, but it is such a shame that he, too, like Thrall, lost a mother at a young age. But while Thrall had a chance to bond with his, Anduin was never given the same treatment. And by the end of Sepulcher, when that cinematic plays after Anduin's defeat, it shouldn't have been Saurfang, it should have been Tiffin, and Varian. Both of his parents, caring so much about him, that brought him back from the brink.
All the gripes about the Dreadlords, the Jailer, etc etc, all of it was stated to death already, but this was never highlighted so I wanted to give this aspect of Anduin's development some thoughts. The lore of Warcraft, after III, and especially in WoW, was always a mess. But was a coherent mess until BfA and SL. I used to love reading the lore, devouring it. But now I can't give a rat's arse when a character is introduced and is killed off in fifteen minutes anymore. Apologies for the long read.
No apology necessary my friend! I appreciate you taking the time to watch the video and craft such a well written comment. You have shined a massive on light on inconsistences retcons/revisions that existed long before Shadowlands. I think we often can have short memories so thank you for bringing all of this up! I think some are acceptable or have worked out okay, but in the sense of Shadowlands it was obviously disastrous!
I really resonate with your feelings about returning to the faction war after Argus and also the importance of Shadowlands needing to succeed. I have mixed feelings about bFA as an expansion but narratively I was incredibly disappointed with it. We had two hugely anticipated antagonists in both Azshara and N'Zoth and both were shafted. Nazjatar and Ny'alotha were deserving of their continents and expansions. It felt so incredibly ham-fisted. I wasn't sure what I wanted Shadowlands to be, but I knew I needed it to be good and of course, it wasn't. I LOVE the idea of Tiffin being at Anduin's side instead of Saurfang. I can't lie, I did enjoy seeing Saurfang but the idea of Tiffin would have been so sweet.
I think I find myself walking the same road as you do. There are a lot of aches and pains with Shadowlands and they still exist now. I never truly gave myself to Dragonflight because I don't think I can anymore. My mentality isn't there. I'm still suffering from this Shadowlands hangover and the idea of giving myself to them just to get let down is just a horrible thought I could do without. And I know I'm serious this time too because I never played the pre-patch for TWW and it was the first expansion I never pre-ordered. I want to try it. I would love to make a video documenting my thoughts. I'm just worried that I'll never care about the game again, and it sucks because I've given so much of my life to it.
Thank you again for crafting such a brilliant read and taking the time to watch the video! I deeply appreciate it.
@@edd_TV Something else I'd like to bring up in regards to retcon, or in this case, recontextualising, is the concept of the Holy Light, or the Light. Before the release of Chronicles Volume 1, the Light was magic, but it isn't something that comes from a certain source. The Naaru are beings made of Light, yes, and people can draw and drain from them to have Holy magic, like the Blood Elves before the return of the Sunwell. Trolls, especially the Zandalari, also has the loa, Rezan, or Shirvallah, figures that they can worship and be granted powers, but they can also use the Light using their faith and worship said loa.The Church of the Holy Light, the Brotherhood of the Light, the right eye of the Earth-Mother An'she, Elune and so on, are also instances where faith grants the person their Light given powers.
The powers themselves can be either for good (The Silver Hand) or for ill (The Scarlet Crusade). And it especially cannot be taken from you (Tirion could still use the Light even after having been supposedly stripped from it) and does not seem to be finite (various moments when the Light work miracles, regardless of how dire the situation is), because it is your will that the Light manifests. It's essentially the power of faith and determination, likeso with Dynamis for Final Fantasy.
The Chronicles recontextualised this in a manner that makes the Light now exists not only as a power of faith and will, but also as a source of Cosmic energy that predates all life and is within all life - ala the Force. But the book and Legion also goes on further in saying that the Light is also as corrupting and controlling as the Void, and that they're two sides of the same coin, and have made damning efforts in making sure that the Light is "morally grey" by showing Xe'ra trying to convert Illidan, forcefully "corrupting" him with the Light, or Y'rel and the Lightbound being essentially brain-washed and conscripted, either through zealousness, fanaticism, or by forcefully converting non-willing people with the Light. That is where I can't take that context serious. The Light wasn't shown to be a power of conversion, or something that can be forced upon others.
Again, the Light is a power of faith and will, has been shown to be so many times, and yet somehow now it has to serve this narrative of "nothing is purely good, everything can be bad". Blizzard's writers failure to see that they *have* succesfully done so with the Light in the past is where my frustrations really shown, that they've forgotten their own lore, and haphazardly changed things without looking back.
I mainly care so much about the Light due to playing as a Paladin since the start, from the original Vanilla all the way through. I very much like the concept of a Holy warrior using strength of arms, will and faith in good to assist the downtrodden. My favourite character is also Uther (also Thrall), and to see what has been done to that concept is nothing short of sheer and utter disappointment.
I've not played Dragonflight so my lore knowledge stops just before it, or even before 9.1, even, so I don't know whether things have changed recently, or they've stayed this course for the Light. I did comeback for TWW to play with friends, but recently unsubscribed again due to them also not playing anymore. I mainly play XIV since 2021 now, before the mass exodus, and the controversy, but they've only strengthen my reasons for staying and avoiding WoW, due to how that universe is also rich in lore, but it is well written and is very minimal on retcons, mainly recontextualising and using mysteries and untold answers to leave things open for new lore to fill the blanks. It also not requiring you to read about a baker's dozen worth of outside materials just to know what the bloody hells is going on before the new expansion is always nice, with everything important in regards to the lore being 99% contained inside the game.
Shadowlands was the first expansion that actually made me rage quit the game. Before that I've always played on and off during expansions. I'll play, lose interest and play something else, then come back later and repeat. But during 9.1 I just broke. There was so much things that I had to do to keep my chars up to date that I didn't have time to do the things in the game I actually enjoyed doing. Previous expansions I'd level multiple alts and in SL I only did my main and one alt. And that was so time consuming that I just barely managed to get my dailies done.
On top of that the story was SO BAD. I kept wondering what kind of imbecille wrote that. Take the Necrolord Sigil for example: We found out that the Primus had entrusted it to the attendants in Korthia who locked it away somewhere where only they could access it. Great, so we just have to keep the attendants safe and everything is fine, right? No, for some reason we have to open the vault, and get attacked by minions of the jailer in process. But we manage to defeat them and we take the sigil out. Then we find out that it's encrypted, so nobody can use it. Great, we just have to hide it somewhere then, right? Nope. Let's take it right into the Jailer's seat of power. Oh, whoops. He just walked in and took it. Fantastic.
And then there was the siege of Ardenweald. We spend all that time defending the sigil, only to learn that it was just a decoy. And they left the real sigil completely unattended. So the Jailer's army just found it and took it unopposed.
It consistently felt like the only way the writers could make the Jailer seem smart was to lobotomize everyone else.
It all combined to me one day staying up late trying to get my dailies done, wondering how I can do it quick enough to still get enough for sleep for work and I just... Stopped. The game was not fun. At all. 9.0 had some good moments but this was shit. I just turned off the game and went to bed. The day after I cancelled my subscription.
When 9.2 was announced I just felt... Nothing. I wasn't interested in the patch at all, and that honestly made me sad. No expansion had ever created such apathy in me for a game I usually love this much.
I eventually returned for the DF pre launch and I have been enjoying WoW again since then. Currently enjoying TWW. But, yeah, SL was awful.
It was the first time I knew I really wanted out. I don't even think it was rage for me, I think I was quite numb. I remember we finished a raid night in Nathria and I just said to one of my friends 'I don't know why I'm doing this. I'm not having fun anymore', and I just quit. And I didn't go back until the final patch. I took breaks in BFA but I would always come back. In Shadowlands I had no desire at all until it was essentially over. Admittedly things were a bit nicer in the final patch with covenants and such, but narratively the damage was so bad. I heard so many horror stories about 9.1, so I'm not surprised at all it broke you. I think I would definitely be feeling rage if I was hanging in there for that long.
You make a great point about the narrative and the sigils too. I don't think that gets talked about enough. The main characters were genuinely written like buffoons in that respect. Zovaal acquired the sigils by the utter stupdity of the main cast. It was almost like it was written by a child in that sense. It all just felt too easy. These characters are supposed to be heroes and really significant and for them to just be bested so easily like that is just dumb. I understand it's to move the plot forward but it just makes them all look so stupid. You can't take them seriously when stuff like this is going on.
It sounds like you had the same realisation as me. You just hung in there a lot longer than I did. Fair play to you, I commend you. I love Warcraft, but I just couldn't stay. I do agree with you that the launch and 9.0 was genuinely not bad at the beginning! But it really did snowball fast. I feel exactly the same as you do regarding Shadowlands and I still haven't fully recovered from it. I tried Dragonflight and wanted to give it an honest go. I did all the keys on +20 in Mythic+ and was really trying to give myself to the game, but something didn't feel right. I wasn't sure if it was because I wasn't connecting with the narrative or because none of my friends were around anymore. Nobody I knew wanted to play after Shadowlands anymore. And narratively it feels like nothing matters now, because if a character dies whether it be an ally or a foe we can just go over to the Shadowlands and see them if we want to. Pulling back on the veil on the Afterlife is probably the riskiest thing they have ever done. And we're kinda just stuck with that now, until further notice. Life leads to death, and death leads to the Shadowlands. And that's just a permanent stain now. Had we lost Khadgar, we could just click the Oribos portal and go and find him.
I'm glad to hear both Dragonflight and TWW are hitting for you! You clearly love the game so much, so I'm pleased to hear you're back having fun. I haven't tried TWW yet, but I'm getting closer and closer. I miss WoW so much. I'm just scared that I'll be admitting to myself that I just can't play it anymore. And that's a difficult thing to want to discover.
Sorry for such a long winded response! I really appreciate you taking the time to watch the video and sharing your thoughts!
The Arthas stuff; dead right with it there. Personally think he's their most iconic and marketable character. When they first hinted towards him featuring a lot of people felt they'd never be able to do him justice and that's possibly when Blizzards plans changed. Getting dropped into the Maw... fair enough; but it felt like there was going to be a lot more there. It was so poorly done it felt like they'd gone so far into production that shifting things around got messy and giving the arc a finale which had become more of an afterthought in their face saving exercise. Could be wrong of course... but as I said he's their most marketable character and for him to end like that was just poor writing and poor business.
Don't think he's done though. Was watching Secret Level the other day and thought to myself that I would not be surprised if in season 2 they had the Culling of Stratholme. Interest in the character will spike and even if Blizz is reluctant their new Microsoft bosses might feel differently.
I can remember the lump in my throat when there were suggestions about Arthas featuring in Shadowlands. I just didn't want it at all. I think you're absolutely right. When you hear 'Warcraft' you think of Arthas and the Lich King; for a lot of fans he IS Warcraft.
I think given the way Blizzard have treated Arthas, it almost feels like they hate him. Arthas isn't their character. And I almost feel like there's jealousy involved with it. He's the ultimate WoW character. The Anakin Skywalker of the Warcraft universe, and no matter what they do they won't ever be able to create another character like him. This is obviously quite a leap, but just a personal opinion. It's how Shadowlands made me feel.
I think we could definitely see the scourge again. Northrend is getting revamped in The Last Titan so I wonder what happens when the scourge have no master after the Helm of Domination was destroyed? As always, I appreciate your thoughts m00n!
Shadowlands killed any love I had for WoW. It has burned any grace I could have had that Dragonflight could have been the greatest thing ever & still wouldn't keep me invested since I had been burned so hard by Shadowlands. Instead of hoping for WoW to be better I only want it to burn & die, which is sad.
I tried my best to dust myself off with Dragonflight. I wanted it to be good but it was very clear I still had the aches and pains and was suffering from the hangover of Shadowlands. I did Season 1 and +20'd every key on Mythic+ and then I just felt empty. I didn't connect with the story at all. It just didn't feel like Warcraft to me. That makes me so sad that you feel this way, but I honestly understand it. Shadowlands hurt the game and players enormously.
You know what the most wild thing here is? Your summary of the narrative was actually far clearer, better delivered and easier to understand than the real in-game explanations and dialogue in-game. So many things were misinterpreted by the community, but you can't blame them because the way they were told was so poor it was practically inviting those misunderstandings.
I'm glad to hear it! I can't take the credit for it though, I was just reading the post on Reddit! But you are absolutely right. When I took the time to read the post myself before putting this video together, there was a huge thud of clarity. It doesn't help in the grand scheme of things because it's still told so poorly, but again you're right! I think Shadowlands genuinely had potential to be such a cool time for speculation. The Primus theory is awesome! I think it can also be dangerous too though. I think if we start hoping and wishing for something and then it doesn't happen, we only really have ourselves to blame. If players start running with things and creating their own narratives and expectations, they are just setting themselves up for potential disappointment.
Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts!
The premise of the story isn't actually all that bad all things considered. But the execution is abysmal. And a Huge part of why is because WoW has always had inconsistent and fragmented story telling from expansion to expansion. They wanted to achieve the same thing FFXIV achieved with Shadowbringers/Endwalker but they couldn't pull it off cause they didn't have any foundation to make it work. And before the WoW andies get on my case about this. Alot of people in WoW's development team play FFXIV. Some of the WoW devs are actually acquainted with FFXIV devs.
I agree. I think there was some crazy potential with this story (and expansion as a whole). I do think the cosmic stuff was really off-putting for a lot of fans. It felt like a bridge too far I think. We were off in the deep end and it felt so different to BFA. I know people can be quite critical about BFA but you can't deny the themes were there for Warcraft!
I think it's fascinating that the game has been becoming more story driven since what feels like MoP I would say. I think we could argue Wrath, but Wrath had the baseline of Warcraft III and the cutscenes and everything else weren't as prevalent as what we see today. It feels like as Blizzard and WoW have become more progressive as storytellers, its suffered more and more. It feels like less is more. And when you throw XIV in the mix too and they are clearly drawing from it, you're right. They don't have the foundations because the expansions are like a theme park. Pandaria! Shadowlands! Dragon Isles! You don't get a chance to breathe. Everything is so different. I think that's the most upsetting part to me too. Once Shadowlands was over and all the damage was done, we were just told to look the other way because 'Don't worry, the Dragon Aspects are here now!' and now it's time for something completeeeeely different.
The Worldsoul Saga is clearly derivative of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc from FFXIV, I don't think anybody would dispute that. What I find interesting is is that I wonder what the percentage is of players who actually enjoy the story? I bet it's higher than what we expect but when it comes to the average WoW player, I bet they are constantly just pressing 'esc' when a cutscene pops up. I think there are SO many elements and cool features to draw on with FFXIV, I'm just not sure if more story is the right one for WoW, especially when they are so poor at delivering it. The ideas are there, granted. But like you said, the execution is always their Achilles Heel, and it's fast becoming unsustainable. I can't speak for TWW as I still haven't played it, and I really hope it's doing well but my interest in the narrative is utterly dead after Shadowlands, and I don't know if I'll get that hunger back.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and I'm sorry for such a lengthy response!
Why I stopped playing characters besides Dracthyr and earthen. They canonically slept through all this.
Haha, clever!
@@edd_TV Glad you mentioned that. FF14 we were there for a dungeon, a trial and if you wanted to a raid. The ethereal sea and souls returning and being reborn has been a staple of many Final Fantsy games. Gentle retcons. Plus I felt more emotional seeing the enemies and friends we saw in that dungeon. Then most of what was in shadowlands.
@@quietfang1 Oh very true! Endwalker was just fabulous. I feel the same! Such an amazing experience.
This video made me understand the story better in the recap than actually playing the game (i did actively play SL wtf)
Haha! In a way I'm pleased to hear that because it's such a condensed story recap! I can't take credit for it, it's a post I saw on Reddit that I wanted to use just to give people some background if they were curious! It's rough knowing that you were actively playing the game and still managed to glean more from this video than the actual game! I think it goes to show how much they have fallen in storytelling. So much is either told in books now or completely left to the wayside. For Shadowlands, I just don't think there was a plan at all. There's no way there could have been. Whatever the goal or vision was for Shadowlands, we never saw it. We saw them throwing stuff together and seeing what stuck.
Forever grateful for TWW being way more forthcoming w the main narrative & not burying it in sidequests and quest text cause literally same.
I’m a lore reader & I literally had to go to the forums daily to understand anything.
Apparently most of the important lore was hidden in those books only 1% find & even less care to read… so. 🫤
I felt this way too, I played through most of SL (sat out on a huge chunk of the Korthia patch) and up until this video I had no idea why the covenant sigils were so important, or what purpose they even served. I paid a lot of attention to the lore in BFA, I even read all the quest texts, but in Shadowlands I gave up on following the story halfway through leveling my main. I just couldn't care less about all these new characters thrown our way every step of the way.
For maldraxxus i really enjoy the idea of mixing undeath with constant battle and challenge, like if you're gonna be an undead thing for eternity anyway, why not constantly challenge yourself to be better and stronger and cooler? And i think the entire zone reflects that mix and both separate aspects at the same time! It was definitely my favorite zone in the expansion and yet there were still many shortcomings in it
I do love it when you put it like that. It sounds very cool! I do feel bad for not having more to say on the zone because the WoW team honestly kicked ass with it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on Maldraxxus, and thanks for watching!
@edd_TV still watching through the video, but definitely agree with a lot of what you said so far, really good vid
@@arfirik Thank you so much. I really appreciate it! Do feel free to respond with any further thoughts you have. Always very curious to hear what players think!
1:11:28 damn I forgot about this cinematic and how rad she was. SL honestly made me want to forget about her.
I've been thinking about replaying Warcraft III. I feel like I want to get in touch with Sylvanas as a character again, before it all got so sour. I'm really scared for her return. I can just imagine them showing Quel'Thalas in the Midnight trailer and showing Sylvanas, and I'm terrified it's going to be met with groans. I really do wonder if there's a way back for her? You're right though, she was awesome back then :(
Agree with pretty much all your points. I bowed out of the game before the Sanctum of Domination patch, and went to play FFXIV for a couple years. Even though I'm back playing WoW again, I still can't bring myself to go back to any of the Shadowlands zones or raids, despite wanting to collect all the things. I'd just rather forget the expansion ever existed.
I recall us having a few conversations about FFXIV! I feel the same as you. I don't think I'm fully cured from the Shadowlands hangover. Even when I was playing Dragonflight I still didn't feel great. I haven't began The War Within yet but I think I'm going to finally start in the New Year.
I know if I started taking WoW seriously again I'd want to collect everything, It's just who I am, haha. It was oddly nostalgic putting this video together, as far as the soundtrack was concerned. Some of them are really nice but you are right, everything feels so tainted and it becomes very difficult to want to praise and actually exist in the game. I always feel an overwhelming sense of dread when I'm in Oribos.
@@edd_TV I'm surprised you remember that conversation, that was months ago and I've slept since then! Dragonflight for sure still felt very off. It just felt like it was lacking the "bite" of Warcraft. I didn't feel invested enough to play it much either. War Within feels decent to play though, I'm enjoying the new adventure and it feels like they're paying more attention to making a nicer story experience. The game isn't completely out of the woods yet, but I think it's making good strides so far. I look forward to seeing your follow-up videos for DF and WW if you do them.
@@LukeStrife I could never forget a name with Strife in it! As always I appreciate your support and sharing your thoughts!
1:11:05 need someone to make a what if Uther forgave arthas and didn’t drop him into the maw imagine seeing him in shadowlands show up to help out against the jailer
Or have kelthuzad be playing 4d chess with the jailer secretly waiting for the perfect time to resurrect arthas and remake frostmourne and the helm of domination
That's such a sick idea. I love this.
Shadowlands felt like the final culmination of the gameplay philosophy of Legion. Looking back, it felt like Blizz really wanted to capture the traditional RPG gameplay elements with stuff like the Maw and Covenants but it’s too much of a departure for modern WoW now. If they had toned it down it might have gone over better.
I agree with that. I do think they genuinely meant well with what they were trying to do, but the failure to listen to feedback was super frustrating! I think the ideas for Shadowlands were genuinely cool: covenants and torghast were both awesome in theory, but the execution was just dire. I think you're right that the focus was just too much on these sort of systems and features too. I think if you stand it up to previous versions of the game where things are so much simpler, you can see why they are so much more successful.
I think you're absolutely right about this being the cruel end to the road that Legion paved. I will champion Legion until I'm blue in the face, but I am cognizant that BFA and Shadowlands were faults of Legion. Legion birthed this gameplay. And Legion was so successful, why would Blizzard shy away from it? Doubling down on the gameplay in BFA was so damaging and to then do it AGAIN for Shadowlands just felt unbearable. I think they are on a better road now, but I think it was a bridge too far for some people to forgive them this time. I don't have any friends who play retail anymore. Shadowlands was the last straw for them, and that makes me so sad.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
By the end of the expansion, when you could swap them, they played a lot like Elder Scrolls guilds, and were pretty cool. I remember 9.2 relatively fondly. The issue was, 9.2 was more than a year after release, and 9.1 was a total dud of a patch that came after a very long content drought.
@@Julian-cn1ey That's a nice comparison. Honestly yeah, when I came back at the end and they opened up the covenant system and Fated was a thing, I actually did have a bit of fun with it all. And that's the most frustrating part. Why couldn't it have been this way from the start? I feel the same about Legion Legendaries. If you didn't get lucky, you were potentially screwed for mythic+ keys or even dropped from raid groups. Just for then to introduce being able to purchase your own legendaries when its much too late.
I do want to be mindful of what was going on in real life at the time and think it definitely played a factor. I'm utterly convinced that 9.1 should have had way more focus on Tazavesh. It just feels like WoD a bit. 'What could have been', you know?
@@Julian-cn1ey Honestly I think soulbinds were the issue instead of covenants themselves. Soulbinds made the individual covenants so much more powerful but without them, it would have just been a single weaker class ability and the covenant ability.
@@Synergy1898 That is true. I think you would have had to remove both the soulbinds themselves and the actual abilities the covenants gave for any of this to work out. They should have just been purely cosmetic based rather than forcing people into specific corners of the world. I can remember in Legion some people were very particular about letting people into their Mythic+ groups if they didn't have the correct legendaries, which was totally out of the players control and came down to blind luck (until later in the expansion when it was far too late). Some players were eventually benched from raiding or were forced to reroll if things didn't work out for them. It felt like Blizzard were learning nothing. The only lesson they learned is in Shadowlands they gave you the choice to join the 'correct' covenant, but not the one you perhaps wanted or were interested in.
Shadowlands is so bad that it made me quit in 2020 after beating the main story and running around Oribos for a while. Came back for Dragonflight and have since levelled alts through all expansions via timewalking, as well as SoD and remix. So I thought maybe I'll try it again, on a DK no less!
It made me quit again.
Oh you brave but foolish soul! Are you playing again now or have you quit entirely?
@@edd_TV I'll be back, but I'm taking a breather to play other games.
@@Conorp77 Good idea. It's important to take breaks and play other things! That's what I've been doing too. I've seen The War Within is on sale, so maybe it's a good time for us both to give it a try soon.
Shadowlands was so bad it almost killed WoW. It came closer than WoD, it came closer than content droughts, it came closer than anything.
What I want is for Blizz to put a giant Shadowlands poster on the wall of every break room and every executive's office, because they need to remember not to fuck up like that again.
I want them to talk about it someday. Like I genuinely wanted them to speak out about Shadowlands and why it failed. Not even from a place of anger, I'm just genuinely very curious. We never got an apology, we never got answers. We were just told to look the other way and move on because it's time for the Dragon Isles now. I want to know their vision and why certain things didn't come to pass. I want to know what Zovaal was actually supposed to be. It just seems an impossible thought to me that this is the product they wanted to give us. There's no way.
Shadowlands absolutely has to serve as a reminder to them. I agree with you. We talked about the 'WoW killer' for so many years and unironically, Shadowlands or patch 9.1 more specifically was the WoW killer. So many have never looked back afterwards.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Afsarabi deserves some ire too.
Oh absolutely. I know Danuser gets all the flack but Afrasiabi definitely played a part in Sylvanas' downfall and the state of the narrative too.
SL cost them billions. And it's not the lore. The anti-alt overdesign of the gameplay ruined SL. One of the massive differences between SL and TWW has been DF-style flying. And they are gonna screw that up too.
Very true. It's definitely something I slept on in this video. I wanted to dedicate a section to alts and the new levelling methods, the threads of fate, and even Exile's Reach for newcomers. WoW has been so needlessly alt unfriendly in the era of Legion-Shadowlands. I can't speak for The War Within as I haven't actually played it yet, but I'm assuming things have calmed down a bit now. I've always played my paladin thankfully, but I can't imagine how brutal some of these times must have been over the course of these expansions. I still find it absolutely mystifying they never made the Essence's account bound in BFA. Just insane.
I think the problem of the "mystic" mindset is. That blizzard support a kind of anti play rather then enjoying dungeon. On my pov mystic is a failed concept. It made a toxic game even more toxic and not even achieved the goal of being "difficult".
It's just making numbers higher or adding annoying timers and elements that make certain keys a hell to run (holy priester trauma...)
I think a real hard mode makes bosses mechanical difficult and not just increases numbers or adding unavoidable damage for the poor healer to deal with while counter healing the higher damage numbers.
While I enjoyed mystic raiding in newer expansions because bosses have fun mechanics and challenges for my healer i have to deal with. Mystic dungeons force you into speed running while you might enjoy more focused gameplay more.
I agree. I think the game has become incredibly competitive. I think it's an important question to ask. Should MMO's be competitive? Outside of something like PvP. Mythic and Mythic+ have both transformed WoW entirely, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst. I definitely think timed gameplay is bad.
@@edd_TV If we look on the success classic had even for new player... till the min maxer and swiper conquered Season of discovery. And how much success FF14 has with his high focus on telling a story and making all content relevant even after the game moves far past it. I think it's clear to see that people enjoy this kind of gameplay.
I think Blizzard created the min max problem as they more and more promoted this playstyle with each expansion. As this kind of playstyle was the best way to make the spenders spend.
Yet once people are forced to slow down and are forced to engange with the world... They start to realize: "Hey leveling is actually fun." and later on they think. "After all this work i finally manage to beat the raid boss. This was awesome."
Hence even being forced to have slow travel speed makes the moment you get your mount or flying so much more cool.
Rather then rewarding the player that engage with the game and took their time to explore. Blizzard rewarted the tourist that rush trough the content as quickly as possible. Hence they even made the same mistake in season of discovery by promoting dungeon leveling groups and EXP boost for this kind of people.
Shadowlands is why i started playing ff14. The dragonflight and the war within have fixed my connection to wow but man Shadowlands fell off so hard. I remember liking it for like the first couple weeks then the horror of the situation dawned on me. I agree with you whole heartedly on the customization point though. Wow has come a long way for sure but ff14 is still miles ahead. So much pysical customization and then you have the robust dye system in 14.
I was already playing FFXIV here and there prior to Shadowlands, but Shadowlands confirmed my departure too. It's when I decided to make FFXIV my main game. I really liked S1 of Dragonflight. I was in there! I did all the keys on +20 and was genuinely enjoying myself, but I didn't think the story was much to look at. I also had no friends to play with as Shadowlands completely destroyed WoW for them. They all play classic now, or have quit full stop.
I'm glad you agree about the customisation! I think playing FFXIV really does open your eyes to just how much is available and where WoW is lacking. The dye system is also fantastic, great point!
I wish shadowlands came at the end of the current trilogy of expansions. It would’ve been a lovely bookend on the history of Warcraft, visiting old characters and finally seeing what happens in the shadowlands. A great way to say goodbye to the old and hello to the new. But maybe minus the Jailor and Sylvanas’ storyline.
I think so too. I think exploring the afterlife was a crazy risk and now it's something we'll always think of when characters die. Sometimes less is more and mystique is always important I think. I think if this was the finale and WoW 2 was coming, I could have accepted this. I really wanted to make a chapter dedicated to 'Returning Characters' but the video was getting really long so I had to cut it, but I think that's a sweet idea when you put it like that. If we could have seen everybody we lost along the way as a sort of goodbye: Varian, Tirion, Garrosh, Mankrik's wife! Throw everybody in there, you know? That's a nice thought. I think this expansion was doomed the minute the jailer was outlined, if we can call him that. I think adding him retroactively and saying he was responsible for X, Y and Z was just incredibly outlandish. I like your thoughts, thank you for sharing!
I’ve unironically been playing WoW since I was a little little kid & Shadowlands legit almost broke my love for the game forever. I can’t even think of a specific moment, it was just a boring, listless, lore breaking expansion. I remember I was doing dailies in Korthia one day and I just couldn’t take it anymore and didn’t log in for months. Sometimes my interest wanes & I don’t log in for a month or two but I had zero motivation to log in for half a year, we were several months into DF by the time I finally gave it a shot again. I’ve had a pretty good time since then, but my love and joy for the story is and never has been the same afterwards.
Also I hated what they did with Sylvanas, Legion to Shadowlands
She was never my favorite but I always respected her character & thought she was cool.
Then the burning of Teldrassil happened and I was so horrified & angry that it drained any and all love for her & I just couldn’t wait to see her die (again)
Shadowlands attempts to explain away her horrible actions & redeem her after sending thousands of innocent souls, not just to their deaths, but to literal eternal hell! Absolutely abysmal
I relate to your comment so much. I started when I was 14, and prior to that I was just obsessed with Warcraft III. I really loved the characters and the world. I was never big on RTS but something about Warcraft III just absolutely got its claws in me. I loved it. Shadowlands honestly did break my love for the game, at least playing it. I still love WoW and I think about it often. I miss it. I tried Dragonflight and I really wanted to give myself to the game again, like I always did. I just couldn't. Something didn't feel right. I wasn't connecting with the story and all of my friends had quit. It didn't feel like WoW to me anymore. I tried to persevere and stick it out for a while. And sure there were some things I enjoyed with Dragonflight: the zones, dragonriding, the dungeons etc. But it didn't have the legs for me to stay. I was still suffering with a SEVERE Shadowlands hangover and those aches and pains weren't going away, so I had to withdraw. I came back briefly for the Emerald Dream patch but nothing has ever made me want to stay. I think the biggest part for me was that we needed WoW more than ever during the pandemic. WoW has always been a huge safety blanket and helped me through dark times, depression and so on. It had always been there for me and helped me when I needed it most, but during Shadowlands the remedy and the cure wasn't working anymore.
I still haven't purchased The War Within and I think it's mainly because I'm scared. I'm scared if I buy it and play it, I might get the same feelings Dragonflight gave me. And if that happens I have to admit to myself that it's truly over. I am going to try TWW soon, but I'm really fearful of it. I'm so glad to hear you're back and enjoying yourself!
I appreciate you taking your time to watch the video and sharing your thoughts!
@ I get your fears with TWW, I also put off getting into it for months out of fear of it being like the Shadowlands again
I’ve enjoyed it so far but that’s not to say it’s for everyone, & I’m a very casual player myself
Also I agree with you, WoW has *literally* been there for me my whole life through the dark and light times, so to be so distraught over the state the game was in & to be fearful of it ever becoming like that again, is really upsetting. I hope to everything that it never becomes like SL again.
Also sometimes I still do SL content for mounts/achieves & even at max level everything is so slow/boring that it feels like my life force is slipping away just by being there. How does a game even do that to you.
@@Archember I pray for that too! I don't think it's possible that we'll ever see anything like Shadowlands again, but I wouldn't want to tempt fate! I'm glad that you were able to give TWW a go and that you're enjoying it. I think I will too. There is just a lot of fear and anxiety there. I must say the new Undermine(d) patch looks really fun! I totally relate to you even just being back in the zones too btw. When I did some recordings for this video and just walking through Oribos and stuff, it was like getting punched in the gut. It's oddly bittersweet because I like the zones and I love the soundtrack, but the memories just feel so bad overall. There is still so much I need from Shadowlands and I definitely want to get back to collecting it all in time, it just feels 'too soon'.
@ Shadowlands will literally and figuratively haunt WoW for the end of time and it’s so sad
Undermine!! Honestly I didn’t know what to think of this patch but after watching Nobbel87 do some ptr for it I’m pretty excited, I loveee Goblins, and another shot to kill Gallywix, and we finally get the Hotrod I’ve wanted since Cata! It’s a patch I’m actually looking forward to for once.
I know everyone here is kinda bitter about the gameplay systems (and I am too, since I both raided mythic and went for 2.5k m+ score, so I had to do every single fvcking chore, every single fvcking day). But whatever..
Shadowlands gravest sin that I'll never forgive is the complete obliteration of big parts of WoW's lore so far. Like every patch things kept happening that made me feel it's either creative dev team having multiple strokes or this was another world now. On a more personal level, I despised SL for handling the final blow on Sylvanas, my most favorite of all WoW chars (yes I'm a stan, fvck off now).
Had to watch her slow destruction already from the end of Legion, then it went on for full force in BfA while the devs were like "wait and see" when people were saying "wtf why would she behave so and so?". And then came SL with its "lore", and finished Sylvanas' character in one of the most horrible ways I could imagine, making her v.1 self despise her v.2 self, cancelling all that development she's had since Vanilla. And for what? No freaking reason at all but because of Afrasiabi's spite (if the rumors the devs themselves spread are to be believed).
By season 4 of SL I was pretty much checked out. Legion was so enjoyable but lore-wise the next 3-4 years that followed made sure to snuff out any appreciation and feeling of connection I had with WoW's world. Haven't played since then and only now trying to get myself to try the new xpac (can't even remember how it's called).
It is sadly the price we pay for trying to be the best we can be. And we shouldn't ever be punished for that, so I feel your pain.
You're bang on the money for me. I think the loudest noise for Shadowlands will always be the systems, and it's definitely valid. But I 100% stand with you. We left Shadowlands with less than we started with, and that was INSANE. There was absolutely zero pay off for what we went through. If we had 'woken up' and it was all a bad dream, that would have been the best ending ever because at least we would have been free from all this nonsense. You couldn't save this narrative. The only takeaway was that they could provide further depth for Anduin, nothing else came from this. They destroyed years and years of progress and lore.
Sylvanas was never my character personally. I gravitated more to people like Uther, Kael, Illidan etc but I am cognizant of the fact that she was SO beloved. I liked her, she just wasn't a favourite for me. It breaks my heart that this is what she has become, and I'm fearful for her in the future. I would like to say when she comes back, it'll be great but it's impossible to say. As WoW players we forgive so much, but we never forget. I wonder what would happen if they dropped a trailer of Midnight and it showed Sylvanas going to Quel'thalas? I wonder how that would be met.
Legion was S tier for me. If WoW was ending after Legion, I would have been satisfied I think. It pulled together so many wonderful threads and the content was just immaculate. The introduction of Mythic+, Suramar, the raids. Actually going to Argus. Finally meeting Alleria and Turalyon. It was brilliant. I also loved how they transformed Holy Paladin into essentially a battle medic. That was great!
I appreciate you being so candid and sharing your feelings. I'm sure watching something like this just digs up some really horrible feelings. It wasn't an easy video to make. I was about to ask if you were still actively playing. I'm yet to purchase The War Within but I am going to pick it up soon. I've heard the narrative is improving, but when the bar is this low...it can't be hard, can it?
@@edd_TV I wrote this comment exactly after finishing the "Thoughts on Story" chapter in your vid. You're completely right it digged up horrible feelings, so many years afterwards but still they exist. Not saying I can't sleep at nights thinking of WoW's lore or anything, but it definitely feels like I was forcefully scammed out of a many years' emotional investment. And the feeling I get every time is an unpleasant blob of frustration, nostalgia and disappointment.
Unfortunately, I think the damage done to Sylvanas' character is kinda irreversible. Regardless of how she comes back (if she comes back at all), she's destroyed. No one can forget her Saturday morning evil character ark. From the burning of the tree, to the "you are all nothing" cinematic to her ordering the burning of freaking dissenting books from Undercity's libraries (it's in the Before The Storm book and it felt so laughable - "see, in case you didn't get the message, Sylvanas is also a dictator/nazi!"), the damage is too grave. Not to mention now with her v.1 self back she's not the same Sylvanas.
The only thing the devs could do, and I'd 100% support them on this, was if they straight up came out and said "some mistakes were made when writing WoW's lore after Legion, so we need to officially retcon this whole period and reset the world to how it was before the burning of Teldrassil, and we'll be continuing from the part where the big sword was plunged". I'd 100% be willing to suppress any disbelief and go with it wholeheartedly.
And one final thing, regarding Danuser's stupid "Zereth Mortis is the final chapter in the Warcraft III saga":
I remember when he said this, it was right after FFXIV's director had said the Endwalker expansion was the final chapter in FFXIV's 2.0 saga. Tbh I still wanna slap him when I see this clip and say "no, go away". I've played FFXIV for quite a few years, and Endwalker was such an emotionally powerful expansion, absolutely worth the characterization of the final chapter in an almost 10 years' saga. It was so well crafted, and in combination with Shadowbringers expansion (which I usually regard as the first half of FFXIV's final chapter), they are the absolute best game content I've ever played, like ever, and I'd probably go so far as to say one of the best pieces of art I've consumed.
So to hear Danuser indirectly compare fking Zereth Mortis (even without its horrible dailies, just considering its lore and how it supposedly "ties together threads from WC III") to Endwalker made my eyes roll to another dimension. I really don't believe he was so out of touch with reality, there is no way, so it felt mostly like a jealous kid who was bitter because another kid made a better drawing. Generally that period I was playing both FFXIV and WoW, and the contrast between whatever abomination Shadowlands was trying to pass as serious lore at that time and Endwalker was seriously spectacular.
@@jtaboxI don't want to short change you with barely any words back to such a well responded comment, but you are just completely right with everything you have said. I'm so glad you were able to understand the Endwalker reference too and why I found that so ridiculous! Endwalker was one of the best experiences I've ever had, and the fact he was latching onto Warcraft III with this kind of stuff just drove me bonkers.
I feel exactly the same as you do and it hurts. It gives me the exact same feelings the Star Wars sequels did, and if people enjoy those films then more power to them. But for me, it just hurt and felt wrong. You hit the nail on the head with emotional investment. I've been a Star Wars fan since I was a kid and a fan of Warcraft since I was about 11 or 12, so to witness both fall like this is just devastating for me. And I don't know how either find their way back.
I don't think they ever want to talk about Shadowlands again, understandably so. I think they absolutely should have held their hands up sooner and came out and admitted mistakes. These are cracks you can simply never paper over and we are extremely forgiving as WoW players, but like you said regarding Sylvanas, we will never forget.
What chores? Are you mixing up SL and Legion? 45 minutes of Torghast a week is not really a chore. Unlike the constant AP grind of Legion.
This expac destroyed everything about warcraft that made it iconic as an IP. Going full cosmic was tragic, the butchering of lore was tragic, the writing was an abomination of the highest order, the content drought was a disgrace, so on and so forth. Great video, subbed.
You're absolutely right on all accounts. It's a stain on Warcraft's legacy and it won't ever be forgotten. Thank you for watching, sharing your thoughts and support! I really appreciate it.
You just know theres still people at bliz who adore this game but for whatever reason they get shafted. I hope it returns to what it once was. But, i dont think i have any faith it will
I think that's really important to note! I think there are people working on Warcraft who are so damn passionate about it and want it to do well, and I feel the same about Star Wars. There are brilliant people out there who want to do good things, but it's not always their choice and that's heart-breaking.
In regards to lore, I think Shadowlands had a lot of actually fairly decent *ideas*, but their execution was lacking---which I feel is often the case for "bad" stories. The Shadowlands as a location held so much potential for oodles of lore, and a lot of stuff that really deserved a deeper dive ended up as footnotes. Not just the Jailer, but the SL pantheon as a whole deserved more. Since they seemed like such a highlight in the expansion, I wish that---since Blizzard decided to put them in regardless of whether it was a good idea---some of the legacy characters brought back were given more of a spotlight than what they ultimately got (like Garrosh, who is a favorite of mine). Arthas and Ner'zhul, who were retroactively made so intrinsic to the Shadowland's story, got practically nothing of note beyond Ner'zhul's boss fight, and barely any references at all.
Additionally---and I'm a little biased as a DK main, who began that specifically because I thought Arthas and Frostmourne were the coolest things ever---to that end, I felt that the Ebon Blade as a faction were underutilized as well. Their biggest bouts of relevance lay in the SL intro questline and the Sanctum of Domination, where they mostly just stood around. Heck, I'm shocked that DKs as a whole felt a little underutilized in that sense. They're literally death-infused supersoldiers, technically created by the big bad, drawing their very abilities and rune magic from this realm, and I felt that they didn't do much to reference that at all beyond giving us more runecarving abilities. Thankfully Sanctum gave us some more runeblade models (or at least weapons with runes *on* them, even if most of them aren't glowing), but even then I still would have KILLED for more runed weapons or even maybe mourneblades (as opposed to the build-a-bear legendaries). But, again, I'm biased. Giving DKs tons of attention wouldn't be fair to the other classes, even if SL was theoretically the best time to do it.
On a related (and more minor) note, I wish there were more notable and permanent visual notes that reference Anduin's experience being the Jailer's puppet for a while. Obviously there's the psychological damage and I can appreciate that they at least gave him the newer grizzled look in TWW, but things like keeping his hair color white/grey or having Shalamayne retain some of the changes it had when transformed into Shalamourne would have gone a long way about it as well. Taking all that away after defeating him felt almost like we were dispelling an Arthas-infused transmog set.
I agree. I do think there were a lot of great ingredients to make something special. It's the execution like you said. I would have loved more Garrosh. I know the cinematic isn't held in a favourable light, but it was so great how they handled him. I would have loved to have seen more of Garrosh, Varian and where was Tirion Fordring? :(
I love that I chose a paladin because of Arthas and Uther, and you went the other way and chose a DK! I wonder if I started in Wrath, would I have taken a DK too? I do think DKs deserved so much love in this expansion. You are right, it wouldn't be fair but the potential for so much was HUGE here.
I love this last part about Anduin. Considering it's the only real takeaway from Shadowlands, I think it's a great point to make. I remember reading theories about him being some sort of dark/shadow knight or something. It sounded very cool. I also love the idea of 'Shalamourne', that sounds amazing. Anduin's mental state is all we have from Shadowlands, so I do think they could have done more with it. Really great observation and ideas. I enjoyed reading this comment! Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts!
Shadowlands will forever be trash, the straw that broke the camel's back for me. They not only showed how death works in Warcraft while also retconning previous showings of it, but they made an oc in the Jailer and made him the mastermind of the entire franchise. Now any character that dies will not matter, since we can just go to Oribos and ask Pelagos to see them in universe, nothing matters anymore. I say goodbye and good riddance to Blizzard, all that virtue signaling and they had cosby room shit going on, then they permanantly ruin one of my favorite IPs that I put 20 years of my life into. FF14 has been amazing since I played after quitting WoW before 9.1, they actually care about their fans and story.
This is such a smart and important comment. You are absolutely right and I feel the same way. No matter who comes into our lives now and no matter who we lose in the future, we can just pop back into the Shadowlands and figure out where the WoW equivalent of the Sorting Hat has put them, and go and check in with them. Exploring death and the afterlife was a huge risk. I felt exactly the same as you in regards to 'nothing matters anymore', and I think I must still feel like that on some level because I barely touched Dragonflight and The War Within was the first expansion I never pre-ordered (still haven't bought it) and I never did the pre-patch event either. I'm still struggling a lot with the hurts Shadowlands caused. I know your pain all too well, especially knowing you are an original player of the game like me too. It sucks man. It really really hurts.
On a happier note, I'm so pleased to hear you found a home in Final Fantasy XIV. I've been in and out of FFXIV since Stormblood, but I've been maining it since around 2020!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings. I really appreciate that.
How bad was Shadowlands? Bad enough for me, who has played WoW since 2006, to quit playing a month after its launch, and not return until WotLK Classic was released.
The entire expansion of SL was a shitshow, and unless they completely retcon everything after BfA, I will (with 99% certainty) never return to retail WoW again.
I tried Dragonflight, but I couldn't stick it out. I had no friends who wanted to play retail anymore and the story just felt so messed up for me. I wasn't willing to just forgive and forget because the Dragon Aspects have showed up. It really upset me. I tried to play Season 1 of Dragonflight for a bit. I even +20'd all the keys on Mythic+ but I felt miserable. It didn't feel like WoW to me, so I quit. I came back for the Emerald Dream patch and quickly withdrew again. I came back again for the 20th anniversary, but I still haven't bought The War Within. I want to try it but I'm scared I'll still be suffering with a Shadowlands hangover and essentially have to admit to myself that it's over. I feel very similar to you.
The fact that Sylvanas had the possibility of a redemption arc but Arthas didn't will always be crazy for me
I don't think they knew what they wanted to do with her to be honest. It felt all over the place. I don't think Arthas deserved to be redeemed. He was a bad egg long before he picked up Frostmourne or the Helm of Domination. I think the Culling of Strat sealed his fate in that respect! It was really dangerous of them eluding to anything Arthas, because they could never do him justice. I know a redemption for Arthas is quite a popular opinion, but for me I don't think he deserves it.
I absolutely Revendreth, it's themes and cosmetics for sure, I am trying to keep it civil, whenever Shadowslands is brought up, its like mentioning a really bad thing someone's ex done. It's because of that, I feel a complete indifference to WoW because of it.
That's a really great comparison, haha. I do view it as Voldemort: He Who Should Not Be Named! But I think we need to normalise talking about things, no matter how 'bad' they were. I think it's important to try and see the good (what little there may have been) and to remain cognizant that even if something was widely disliked, it's probably somebody's favourite still! I think I was tough but fair. There were definitely elements I enjoyed but on the whole, it hurt me a lot.
For me, the biggest blown idea in the expansion was Torghast. I love roguelikes, and that's essentially what Torghast was. But because they made it mandatory and tied player power to doing it, it just...became a chore. What was originally a lot of fun the first few times, became tedious in the extreme, and they only doubled down on doing Torghast by making the next step of legendary progress tied to EVEN MORE currency found only in Torghast. It was fucking awful. It's like the devs were so utterly petrified that someone might not want to do it that they made sure everyone HAD to do it.
I agree. Roguelikes aren't my thing at all. I don't even think I knew what they were at the time of Shadowlands release, so it was a really interesting concept for me. And I love WoW so the fact they wanted to build something like that inside the game sounded like a great introduction for me to learn more about it. But like you say, they had all the ingredients to do something wonderful but instead made it mandatory and turned it into a job. I think the only times I truly enjoyed Torghast is when I had a friend with me. Doing it alone was painful.
I 100% agree with you. I think this has been Blizzard's stance for ages now. They want to create content but they will ensure you play it. That's the problem. It happened with Islands and Warfronts and it was even worse with Torghast. They are TERRIFIED that their hard work will go to waste if only 10-15% engage with it, as opposed to 90%. I'm really glad to hear you say this because it's so true, and more people need to be talking about it. I think it's important they create content that might not be for everybody, and maybe Delves is that first step? I can't really comment too much on Delves as I haven't played TWW yet, but I'm so glad to hear you have the same thought process with me on Torghast!
Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts!
@@edd_TV Delves definitely feel like a good progression of Torghast. The progression feels somewhat like an alternative path to raids and M+, with similar, though lesser, gearing rewards after some adjustments.
@@RawkLobstah88 I look forward to getting in there and checking it out!
-Bastion was an enormous slog snoresville zone I almost dropped the game there
-maldraxxus was an amazing zone
-ardenweld was just another big forest zone that every expansion has
-revendreth was pretty cool
-the maw was awful
Damn, sorry to hear you didn't like Bastion! All fair opinions though. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and watching!
Shadowlands could've been amazing if they just let us choose covenants better, not lock us down, not bloat everything with busywork. From an actual gameplay stanpoint it was pretty good with amazing art. I mean, the whole anima/stygia part - I actually like it. I was pretty morbid and honestly fit the universe better than some other more rosy comments. Since the entire universe exist as rings within rings - it does make a lot of sense. But as always, blizzard is terrible at delivering complex and deep stories. I quit in Korthia, and skipped DF because I was so pissed and annoyed... And Sylvanas being the catalyst to fuel souls and anima into the maw from BFA, makes sense when you know the story - but felt weird when it happened. I don't know, I like it. And I am I huge lore buff, owning all the books - maybe I'm an exception.
And the jailed wanted to turn all of creation into an army under his control to fight off the "bigger threat". He didn't care about us nor anything, he saw all of creation as flawed non-unified, inter-fighting, divided. It again makes sense, how more unified can you be than completely dominated by one entity. AGAIN Blizzard is failing heavily explaining these parts, and how it all comes together. The biggest threat, isn't even withing our own creation, it's an outside threat so large that no mortal being can comprehend it.
I do agree with you on covenants. I really liked the idea of them, if we could have just moved freely from the get-go, it would have been great! I would have rathered not had power tied to them full stop but if we had the freedom, it would have been absolutely fine!
When Sylvanas found out Zoval created the Lich King, it should've been the same outcome as when Starlord found out his father caused his moms death.
I love this comment. I love Star-Lord so much. He's one of my favourite characters. Love the idea of that.
When I saw the patch notes for 9.2. I told my guildmates that the legendary system was made to sell WoW tokens and i quit soon after
It's impossible to see it any other way, I agree. I think Blizzard have done a lot of bad with the game, but the WoW token is one of the most unforgivable for me. Just admitting defeat and allowing people to buy currency, it should never exist. I know you can obviously do it via gold sellers and stuff but for Blizzard to give in and provide a way of doing it too, it was so disappointing. But I think you're right. They fucked people over hard, and the saddest part is the players always yield. I dread to think how many bought WoW tokens.
@@edd_TVI was one of those people, I wanted to keep raiding with my guild but after 9.2 and me having one foot in with ff14 at the time I just quit. I came back in dragonflight and was put off even more with the power of friendship shit they did with it. Which yes ff14 has those moments, but gotdammit it’s called World of Warcraft
@@1shogunate696 I agree, it didn't feel like Warcraft to me at all. I tried my best but I just really couldn't connect with it narratively. I did make a video on this some time back called 'The Mourned Identity' where I spoke about the tone and how drastically Warcraft has changed over the years. I definitely get where you're coming from. I think WoW should have emotion but it shouldn't be so ham-fisted and prominent. There is always a time and a place. In Dragonflight it just felt like a constant.
@@edd_TV one thing and probably the only moment that I liked narratively in dragonflight was the malygos/sindragosa quest line, especially knowing how much the blue dragonflight has gone through. Was definitely the only moment in dragonflight that really hit me. I hope TWW and the following expansions are good, but I won’t be coming back to retail at all.
@@1shogunate696 The Blue Dragon Aspect storyline was very good! Definitely the standout moment for me too, for sure. I'm really torn on TWW. It's on sale and I want to give it a try, but I'm honestly just scared it's gonna make me feel the same way Dragonflight did. I just don't know if I'll ever be back properly again.
I liked end BFA and beginning SL. But it just didn't get good.
I really liked the end of BFA too! I loved Ny'alotha (although I still think it should have been a continent for its own expansion!) and I thought corruption was genuinely fun. I also think the beginning of Shadowlands was decent, but you're right. It went on for way too long and the cracks really began to show. It was a very hard time.
I don't think it needs more edge or grit but more Violence would add a lot to The world of WARcraft
I’ve only ever played Classic, and listening to that entire story section just made me wince. What a load of shit.
Yeah, it's very damning. It's made it really difficult for me to want to enjoy anything new they try and tell. It just trampled over so much of the lore and it honestly just wasn't very compelling at all. It's hard to want to trust them again. It's so much worse when you've been so invested for like 20+ years too. it really did feel like a lot of my teenage years was just being shot to pieces.
I think Sylvanas died for me as a character a long time ago. She has been a hand wringing villain for a long time, well before Shadowlands.
I also didn't care one way or another about the Lich King. Arthas was a tragic character. The Lich King however was a boring, nothing character that would shake his fist at you and had a tough bossfight... The Jailer is the mirror of the Lich King. He is the Lich King without the history that built him up. Big mean blue guy who shakes his fist at you and has a tough boss fight.
If the Jailer was going to be necessary, he shouldn't have been a 4d chess player. It should have been that he understood death magic, worked with Primus for domination magic, and gave it to the Legion in exchange for help. Anything beyond that is largely out of his hands. He isn't some super genius, and they should have actually shown him doing anything on screen.
I also think that with the "infinite after lives" thing, we needed to actually SEE that. Unfortunately, they took the easy way out with everything this expansion.
It all felt cheapened to try and push up the Jailer as being more than what he was ever meant to be. it was also obvious from day 1 he was the former arbiter. You mean the guy with a round hole in his chest is linked with the broken construct that has a hole in their chest that proudly displays a suspiciously round object in it? Hmmmmmmmmm.
It felt lame immediately. But as always, the side stories are what make WoW actually better. It's where most of the lore comes from, and is most interesting in those places. The zones themselves, Maldraxxus besides, are well done. Art, music, even some stories... But it was too little to counterbalance the giant looming pile of crap quickly descending upon the game that was the Jailer.
Zereth Mortis was a cool looking zone, but the implications it had for the lore of the game basically said that everything was just kinda.... 3d printed. The 4 covenant leaders are just.... Robots with no real history behind them. all the creatures and plants, the land and the water... It was all programmed and pasted into place by the first ones. It really takes the wind out of the few sails still going to be told that everything, even the super nature-y Ardenweald, is actually just this weird constructed place, made by some unknown peoples ages ago. It leaves one feeling apathetic towards the lore in general. Why do I care what happens with the void, when every force has a Zereth we could conceivably just..... Go to. Are the titans 3d printed? Was everything that ever was and is and will be just planned ahead of time by a Super Jailer who is even bigger and bluer?
I was never particularly over with her. She was cool, but definitely not a favourite of mine. I think I still enjoyed her up until Legion though. She just never struck a major chord with me personally. I was more Arthas, Illidan, Kael etc.
You have crafted this comment really well. It was a great read. I found myself nodding and agreeing with everything you said. Thank you for taking the time to watch the video and sharing your thoughts!
@@edd_TV Thank you for making the video!
Just want to mention that I think the creation catalyst was a great addition *because* it made raiding more optional for people who would rather do things like m+. I think the less mandatory content, the better, as it means people will engage with things like raiding because they enjoy it rather than for a gear grind.
I agree. It was a great addition for people who prefer to do their own thing!
My opinion about addons is that wow's interface is so polluted with special effects that addons are absolutely necessary to help people filter what's important and what's not. In PVP, for example, ppl look for a walking health bar, instead of an avatar flashing with light, throwing lightning like a tesla bulb, or surrounded by explosions galore. Another example is healing, when ppl keep an eye on a grade on a corner of the screen with many health bars they must use healing spells to keep them alive.
I don't disagree with that. I think addons have been a staple of the game for so long at this point too. Like I use plenty, I just wish players weren't so dependent on them. But we've been at a stage for a long time now where Blizzard design fights with things like DBM and Weak Auras in mind, so I get it. You are right, they are definitely helpful and in most situations I would say mandatory. I just wish it wasn't so.
@@edd_TV Although i said addons are absolutely necessary, i personally don't agree with it being mandatory. If you must use third party pieces of software (or whatever an addon can be described) to reliable play a game, it's a proof that that game is flawed.
@@kayrius I agree. I think some addons are great and provide real good quality of life, but some really do make the game mindless.
For me there were two things I liked about Shadowlands. 2h Frost DK being brought back and an actual PVP vendor (IIRC they weren't in BFA)
I do think you're right! I'm not super clued in about PvP but I do recall noise about PvP vendors coming back!
I hated Legion (got unlucky with legendaries and my favourite class was ruined by a bad rework) so for me, the last good expansion was MoP.
I wish Blizzard would just sell the IP already. I know it won't happen though.
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm under no illusions that Legion was far from a perfect game too and it absolutely paved this incredibly cruel road that WoW walked. I think Legion-Shadowlands was an immensely difficult time. If Legion was the only expansion to mess around with both artifact power and legendaries, I think it would be held in an even higher regard, and WoW would have absolutely been better off for it! Also hard agree on Mists, absolutely amazing expansion! I'll definitely cover it someday.
I feel similarly to you in regards to Disney Star Wars. I just struggle so much now. I want to give myself to them, but I know every time I do I get hurt.
Lol what's with the Ragnarok music at the end? It is awesome. There is a lot I never knew about Shadowlands, but yeah Arthas appearance was completely unecessary. It is sad to know that the guy behind the Sylvanas that we liked was caught up in that Blizzard Lawsuit thing. They even changed the name of a semi-important NPC (Afrasiabi) that was named after him from classic. I think they should bring Denathrius back 100%, he was one of the most interesting characters.
The Ragnarok music features at the end of all of my videos! I'm not quite sure why. It's a game that's very close to my heart. 'm glad you recognised it! I can remember reading about all of the changes that happened with characters and places in WoW, Mac'Aree on Argus was renamed to Eredath etc. I think it's an important reminder never to do self inserts and nods to people. It was a really horrible time.
I promise you Denathrius will be back!