I've used clear PETG as a first layer before printing ABS/ASA before. PETG has very strong adhesion to PEI beds (sometimes too strong, but I had no issues in this use case) and strong enough adhesion to ABS/ASA that I didn't get any warping in the moderate-size parts I was printing. Because clear PETG is so transparent, I don't have to worry about matching color with the rest of the print, or having to pick a color combination.
@@willofthemaker lol yeah, I recently used ASA to print my enclosure for the P1P and I had to fight the filament a bit. High high bed temps and just accepting a little warping was my solution. + A cardboard enclosure while I made my real one.
I have the exact same experience with ABS and ASA, down to the smell. Both are very easy to print if you do these 3 things: - Make sure it's dry - Use smooth PEI sheet. The smooth part of this statement is critically important. - Print it inside an enclosure. It is also a good idea to use some PVA glue on PEI sheet because if you don't remove it before it cools it may get stuck and damage the PEI sheet. PS: There are only 2 reasons to use ASA over ABS: 1 - The price difference is very small 2 - The printed part will be exposed to UV/weather Any other difference you may notice is more likely to come from brand / batch / storage conditions (like moist) OR color. Surprisingly it can make a lot of difference within the same manufacturer. For example: e-Sun red and green ABS print beautifully, with impeccable surface finish. Now, try your luck with e-Sun white ABS...
This is an incredible discovery! Even though I have a closed X1 Carbon, I’m definitely going to try this technique. Being able to keep the bed temperature at 60°C instead of 100°C or higher makes the process more economical and even safer. This opens up new possibilities for ABS printing, especially for those without beds that can’t reach higher temps. Great video! Thank you and congratulations on sharing this valuable insight! 👏
I tried printing TPU on top of PETG to make a mudguard for a mountain bike (tough TPU to take impact from stones/..., PETG for stiffness). Worked really well, but especially with thin parts, going with PETG first (higher bed temps) was very beneficial for layer adhesion.
It reminded that a Stratasys printer always prints ABS on thick raft of dedicated support material. This interesting technique might make engineering plastics such as Delrin more hobbyist-friendly.
If I remember correctly, delrin (POM) has significant formaldehyde emissions when printed....I guess PA/ABS should be just as good for most applications and at least a little bit less extreme (although still kinda stinky or maybe even not too good for health). On the other hand, activated carbon filters are a standard in modern printers, so maybe that helps to just shrug that part off.
The only stratasys printer I’ve ever used printed ABS on an ABS heated bed. The adhesion was so good it wasn’t uncommon to just snap the build surface removing a part
@@pastagandalf ABS is not just stinky. And activated carbon filters are often not enough to remove much more than the smell. The manufacturers have no obligation to put proper filtration in these things, so don't rely on them.
Question: Does PLA+ABS have the same layer adhesion whether you print PLA on ABS, or ABS on PLA? It might seem like a silly question at first, but since ABS prints significantly hotter than PLA, I'm curious if the amount of layer remelting is different enough to make a numerically noticeable difference. Admittedly, I can't think of a good reason to print PLA on top of ABS, but I'm still curious.
Not a silly question at all, I was going to ask this same thing, I've even noticed the difference if I print Silk-PLA/PLA or PLA/Silk-PLA. The order for some might be very important but totally undocumented. Most don't realize that part of the bond is the lower material also remelting a bit, so trying to print PLA ontop of ABS, likely doesn't work unless the ABS is still quite hot.. Then we also get into another odd question because of that.. "How long does your machine take to change out filaments?" because that is a new variable that's even lesser tested for differential material bonding. Thermals defuse through the materials below, so if you take too long the bonds end up weakened.
ABS doesn't stick to the glass at all for me. This is a good enough reason to use a PLA base layer. I think PEI sheet is too cumbersome and fragile and expensive. I have, but I don't like to use it. I heat the table to 55-60°C. In this case, the adhesion is strongest. ABS adheres perfectly to the PLA layer, because it is warm and melts together. Then, when it has cooled down, I simply peel off the PLA layer from the bottom because they no longer stick when cold. Another advantage of the PLA base layer is that not only ABS adheres well to it, but practically all materials tried so far.
@@lacikeri3102 That's a very good point actually, I suppose I've been spoiled after moving to PEI sheets and never looking back. And ABS can certainly still be finicky at times on that. One thing I've found is whatever z-offset I print PLA with a reliable first layer and 0.2mm , I often need to go to about 0.15mm for ABS to have similar results, on PEI I know it helps squish it into the grooves, on glass that might help as well. That said if PLA can solve your issue anyways that's awesome, that one layer isn't really going to deform anything even if it hits glass transition temperature. Only thing to worry about is if the ABS distorts critical dimensions or not. Also oddly enough PLA and TPU don't make an amazing bond, but they do still bond better than PLA/PETG, which is okay I guess since TPU is already crazy-adhesive to the bed, the bond between TPU/PETG is ~2x stronger though, likely temp related at least a bit.
@@Roobotics I have not tried PLA-TPU. Yes, the TPU stuck well on its own. I only use PLA base layer for ABS, PA materials. Sometimes to PETG if it would come up because of its shape. The truth is that I have a self-built printer. It does not have automatic table leveling. This is also the reason why I like the glass table. 😄 I want to buy a Bambulab printer, I will definitely use it with a PEI table.
It works perfectly, thank you for this insightful advice that will save energy and spare me the headaches of warping! With this option, my toolchanger performs much better with the complex parts I love printing in ABS. The PLA layer peels off like butter, leaving no marks at all! The perfect solution!!! Thanks for this experiment, it absolutely deserves more attention!
That is really cool, and the good thing is that you don’t even need to use a multi head printer - since you (hopefully should) watch the first layer anyway, it is not much of a problem to change the filament after the first layer.
The thermal stresses that develop as it cools are hard to minimize without the use of a heated chamber for certain materials like abs. The goal for plastics is print them and keep the chamber hot, closer to their glass transition temps (i.e. when the plastic becomes solid again after melting) so that you don't have large thermal stresses develop as the geometry is changing during printing. Less thermal gradient means less warping. Then after printing is finished, cool the part slowly and the final geometry will be much more accurate, though you will still have some dimensional changes during this cooling period too (these are unavoidable but you can plan for them through careful engineering).
Thanks for your comment. You're definitely right. I know that this is not the best way to print ABS. The idea was rather to show a possibility if you don't have a heated bed or are really trying to drastically reduce your power consumption. Of course, the shrinkage of materials like ABS cannot be avoided.
I have been using polystyreen as an interface layer for supports for some time. Works well enough on ASA and PETG. I deliberately mention interface layers. I do not print support material completely from polystyreen. This trick reduces the amount of toolchanges saves material, time and wear to your machine.
Real nice find printing ABS on PLA to reduce warping! I do wonder if that also works with ASA on PLA. Could be revolutionary for occasional ABS/ASA printing on open bed machines!
That's a neat find. Will try this, I don't have MMU so only way I can do this is with "pause at height' method. andincrease temp of nozzle at that height.
Definitely a video of printing PETG on a layer of PLA is worth a separate video. Show us your techniques and ideas. Also for those who would be using filament change option on one extruder printers.
Definitely interested in seeing nylon added to the mix, I would love to see if there is another material that could be combined like that to reduce the warping/bed adhesion issue
An Idea i had would be to somehow print the infill of every x't layer using PLA to relief internal stress of the ABS while still having the Shell strength of ABS
Just Curious does the number of PLA Layers with the ABS make any difference Im sure after a number of PLA layers the warping of ABS would drop off a great deal and not make any difference. But if you print 3 or 4 layers of PLA and then ABS as opposed to 1 or 2 layers will the warping stop all together? I think a more detailed analsys of layers between PLA and ABS in an unheated and heated chamber would be prudent! Also I am intersted in what JonS has proposed!
Great Test and approach. About PLA as a first layer for ABS: ABS needs those temepratures. It‘s not only about the adhesion of the first layer. The elevated bed temperatures are important for the whole Part not cooling down. Warping comes from the upper segment of a part shrinking too much and therefore pulling the below layers up. Try thicker parts or 100 filled cubes 100x100x100 or even bigger. What you‘ve found is just an edge case and is not used for example in the professional 3DP industry. Keep your content up and stay curious! Sincerly Andreas
One of the tests was literally a warp-test though and did "better" than the pure ABS, butttt I air-quote that part because the printer is also not enclosed and ABS does have a finickyness to getting it to stick, so I'm tempted to say those particular results can't be held as valid, you really never want to print ABS like that if it's anything precise, drafts rob the thermals and make everything shift. Oddly though, I wonder if 60c had less warp due to only adhesion, or because the updraft thermals the bed makes, would be less turbulent and draw in less cooling from the sides?
I wonder how would it warp if someone combined 1-2 layers of PLA every 10-20 layers of ABS. PLA stiffnes should offer a lot of resistance against warping, creating some type of composite material, but I wonder if it would work well. For ABS you should generally always have enclsoed printer.
Warping is not a problem caused by bed adhesion only. You did it on a flat print. For taller or bigger parts conform heating is more important because you get layer seperation. Also its very impectful if you have a lot of long and straight lines/walls in the design which enforces warping significant. Guess what - the Stealthburner cover is exactly counter warping design.
@@JanTecEngineeringThat's Incredible that such a small layer can help so much! Thank you for finding such a " hack" I shall try tomorrow I have a bracket on my printer head that is currently PLA but it softens and doesn't grip well. I'm hoping I can print the part in ASA but I haven't done this as I have a Kobra 2 max and the bed doesn't get very hot and it is not enclosed.
For that print with the first layer PLA and the rest of the part in ABS, can you elaborate if you used the PLA bed temperature through the entire print? Or did it go up to abs temp after the first layer? Or somewhere in the middle? Definitely interested in trying that.
Thank you for your work, especially the adhesion chart has been very handy. Have you thought about using colouring by layer to make composite-like or lattice prints? Using each color with different material, I wonder how tpu infused with abs will turn out. Love Ur vids.
I have been using this for a long time. I change the thread by hand after the first layer. I print on a glass sheet and the PLA adheres to it very strongly. On a PLA base layer, although I have already printed with PA-CF, ABS, PMMA, PETG. It never came up, but it happened that it broke the glass when printing POM material. Unfortunately, this cannot be printed thickly because it shrinks very strongly, even though it is very impact and abrasion resistant.
Awesome video! I’ve seen some videos about concerns with carbon fiber ‘dust’ and I’m wondering - if someone really needs a filament containing CF maybe you’re onto something here and the CF filament could be encased with PLA, ABS, or PETG to reduce the worry about CF fibers and health risks? Do you think CF printing is a health hazard?
I've heard that people print PP with a raft of PETG. Or was it PC? I keep forgetting. One of these, the one that doesn't stick to anything, but apparently sticks to PETG.
Hey JanTec, I think it'd also be interesting to know how two different pla's, can even be of the same brand, bond. That way we'd know if when we're making multicolor prints, if we are sacrificing the strength of our part, we'd have a rough estimate by how much
Is not about warping.. is about layer adhesion and finished part. By controlling the chamber temp you can control the shrinkage (along with clever design and slicing), get the most from the amorphous material, avoid thermal shock, artifacts etc.. ABS needs an enclosure, period, or you better use other materials.
@@ilKamuTube PET without the G. Is the best you can get on an open printer reliably. Possibly a blend with FBPE. On a more specific term: what thermal resistance you need? How many MPa at what temperature?
Apart from the specialities that come with printing ABS, you really dont want to breath in the VOCs that are emitted when printing ABS. A chamber and GOOD ventilation are REQUIRED for ABS. I know, everyone knows this. But safety cannot be stated enough.
The finding for using PLA to hold ABS is so cool! Here is another question, since PLA and ABS stick quite well, and PLA solvent is super toxic. Would it be possible to use ABS juice to glue PLA?
As asa is so bad with warping on larger and thinner parts i would like to see a showcase of alternative supportmaterials to reduce fan requirements for overhangs and bridges.
I was just watching a video by Thomas Sanladerer of Made With Layers and he was saying that PLA doesn't really stick to any other material. After watching this video here I was thinking to use ABS shell on Foaming PLA or PLA Foam core (infill). I kind of wonder about that now. I suppose I'll just have to test it. Good thing is that I'm sure Foaming ASA is still an option in combination with regular ABS or ASA shell if ABS/PLA doesn't bond together well in my case.
My general method to Print ABS is to do it as cold as possible to minimize warping. Even if i have to slow down the printer works fine on Voron 2.4 and X1C
I'd love to see this with fancier filaments. I love my PC-CF, but I'd like to spice it up with some color accents. Luckily I've found that ASA bonds decently well to it, but I'd like to see some more better data on it!
Pla transition temperature is well below 80. This means it would be in a soft state and any force can deform it. Add the temperature from the melted ABS to the situation aaaaaand..
The hot bed is what causes warping. When I print pacf my bed is set to 40c, and I get perfect prints. No lifting, no warping. I use gluestick on glass.
I don't understand why printing with PLA makes warping on ABS less severe. Increased bed temperature should help prevent warping by minimizing the temperature difference between the lower and upper layers. I don't understand why lowering the bed temperature and printing a single layer of PLA before ABS would cause less warping--the PLA-ABS adhesion strength is worse than ABS-ABS, and I don't think that PLA-Bed adhesion is better than ABS-Bed adhesion, so what's going on here?
@@krollmond7544 true. I honestly thought it was bigger. Although I think the structure is so strange. Why not the vertical struts in the front instead of the half cantilevered frame. Leads to a horrific enclosure solution that requires way too much time to put together. I don't have near enough time for that nonsense
Let's say you want to print a Part in ABS but you want to use the method of using PLA for the first layer to prevent Warping but You also don't have an MMU. How can you accomplish That?
printing abs need enclosure...need heat around the part (like 40+c ) and no wind blowing..then it wont warp. and let it cool down slowly inside the enclosure.
@@JanTecEngineering the british pronounciation doesn't sound like that. Yours and Stefans is more like a very heavy german accent, which is ok i guess but funny nonetheless
I don't print multi-color items. I print functional parts. This technique of printing PETG for the first layer or two and ABS or ASA for subsequent layers to improve bed adhesion and lower electrical usage by having a cooler heated bed is a good application for me to use a printer with a multi-color feeder, not for different colors but for different materials. Bambu Lab is releasing a TPU filament that works in their AMS multi reel feeder... presumably a higher durometer TPU. Hopefully other filament manufacturers will follow suit and we can print parts with TPU and ABS, maybe with a PETG first layer or two.
the abs warping test is kind of an unfair test on your printer as abs is susceptible to warping from any air temp change. so printing it in an open air printer is going to cause it to warp either way
Oh so basically I should own a multi-material capable 1200$ printer to do this "trick" :D I could also pay half of that to get an enclosed printer and print ABS with much less hassle and "trickery"
"As I already knew from previous tests, PLA has by far the best layer adhesion" Er, TPU has the best layer adhesion of any of the tested materials. Your mounting solution for the TPU-TPU test was just incorrect for a flexible material. Surely you know this though so why misrepresent the fact?
Finding "tricks" to print ABS on an open air machine AND with a reduced bed temp isn't an achievement that people should be aiming for. At the very least put a cardboard box over the machine to increase the ambient as much as you can and go slow enough to where a fan isn't required and enclose it as much as you can. That way you can print a semi decent ABS part on a machine that isn't meant for it. I suggest watching this video to better understand what's happening to the part you're printing and how much temperature really affects the quality of the parts you're printing especially when using materials that want a higher ambient like ABS/ASA/PC/PA etc. If you need an ABS part, at least try to get as close to abs printing conditions as possible - not as far away as possible. ruclips.net/video/U-RvbcHbEe4/видео.html
First of all, you're right. My go-to ABS setup is also an enlcosed machine with 100 °C + heated bed. But: there are still printers out there without heated bed (Cetus for example) and if you happen to need a part with better temperature resistance than just PLA, such a method could be useful. Secondly, this is just a concept, that also could be applied to other filaments, like PP, that do not require a warm chamber but won't stick to common print surfaces.
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I've used clear PETG as a first layer before printing ABS/ASA before. PETG has very strong adhesion to PEI beds (sometimes too strong, but I had no issues in this use case) and strong enough adhesion to ABS/ASA that I didn't get any warping in the moderate-size parts I was printing. Because clear PETG is so transparent, I don't have to worry about matching color with the rest of the print, or having to pick a color combination.
did you tried PLA/ASA ?
@@enzoarathni7958 no. In part because I wanted the transparency of clear PETG so you couldn’t even see that I had changed material.
Clever
@@enzoarathni7958 no
As ASA seems to be replacing ABS in popularity, I'd be interested to see this test with PLA and ASA
Can't get ASA to stick to safe my life. ABS is relatively easy, even on an open bed slinger
@@willofthemaker lol yeah, I recently used ASA to print my enclosure for the P1P and I had to fight the filament a bit. High high bed temps and just accepting a little warping was my solution. + A cardboard enclosure while I made my real one.
@@willofthemaker Might be the brand you're using? I experience no difference sticking ABS or ASA
I expect it to be exactly the same
I have the exact same experience with ABS and ASA, down to the smell. Both are very easy to print if you do these 3 things:
- Make sure it's dry
- Use smooth PEI sheet. The smooth part of this statement is critically important.
- Print it inside an enclosure.
It is also a good idea to use some PVA glue on PEI sheet because if you don't remove it before it cools it may get stuck and damage the PEI sheet.
PS: There are only 2 reasons to use ASA over ABS:
1 - The price difference is very small
2 - The printed part will be exposed to UV/weather
Any other difference you may notice is more likely to come from brand / batch / storage conditions (like moist) OR color. Surprisingly it can make a lot of difference within the same manufacturer. For example: e-Sun red and green ABS print beautifully, with impeccable surface finish. Now, try your luck with e-Sun white ABS...
This is an incredible discovery! Even though I have a closed X1 Carbon, I’m definitely going to try this technique. Being able to keep the bed temperature at 60°C instead of 100°C or higher makes the process more economical and even safer. This opens up new possibilities for ABS printing, especially for those without beds that can’t reach higher temps. Great video! Thank you and congratulations on sharing this valuable insight! 👏
I tried printing TPU on top of PETG to make a mudguard for a mountain bike (tough TPU to take impact from stones/..., PETG for stiffness). Worked really well, but especially with thin parts, going with PETG first (higher bed temps) was very beneficial for layer adhesion.
I've fused PLA and TPU with great results as well
It reminded that a Stratasys printer always prints ABS on thick raft of dedicated support material.
This interesting technique might make engineering plastics such as Delrin more hobbyist-friendly.
If I remember correctly, delrin (POM) has significant formaldehyde emissions when printed....I guess PA/ABS should be just as good for most applications and at least a little bit less extreme (although still kinda stinky or maybe even not too good for health). On the other hand, activated carbon filters are a standard in modern printers, so maybe that helps to just shrug that part off.
The only stratasys printer I’ve ever used printed ABS on an ABS heated bed. The adhesion was so good it wasn’t uncommon to just snap the build surface removing a part
@@pastagandalf ABS is not just stinky. And activated carbon filters are often not enough to remove much more than the smell. The manufacturers have no obligation to put proper filtration in these things, so don't rely on them.
Question: Does PLA+ABS have the same layer adhesion whether you print PLA on ABS, or ABS on PLA? It might seem like a silly question at first, but since ABS prints significantly hotter than PLA, I'm curious if the amount of layer remelting is different enough to make a numerically noticeable difference. Admittedly, I can't think of a good reason to print PLA on top of ABS, but I'm still curious.
Not a silly question at all, I was going to ask this same thing, I've even noticed the difference if I print Silk-PLA/PLA or PLA/Silk-PLA. The order for some might be very important but totally undocumented. Most don't realize that part of the bond is the lower material also remelting a bit, so trying to print PLA ontop of ABS, likely doesn't work unless the ABS is still quite hot.. Then we also get into another odd question because of that.. "How long does your machine take to change out filaments?" because that is a new variable that's even lesser tested for differential material bonding. Thermals defuse through the materials below, so if you take too long the bonds end up weakened.
ABS doesn't stick to the glass at all for me. This is a good enough reason to use a PLA base layer. I think PEI sheet is too cumbersome and fragile and expensive. I have, but I don't like to use it.
I heat the table to 55-60°C. In this case, the adhesion is strongest. ABS adheres perfectly to the PLA layer, because it is warm and melts together. Then, when it has cooled down, I simply peel off the PLA layer from the bottom because they no longer stick when cold.
Another advantage of the PLA base layer is that not only ABS adheres well to it, but practically all materials tried so far.
@@lacikeri3102 That's a very good point actually, I suppose I've been spoiled after moving to PEI sheets and never looking back. And ABS can certainly still be finicky at times on that. One thing I've found is whatever z-offset I print PLA with a reliable first layer and 0.2mm , I often need to go to about 0.15mm for ABS to have similar results, on PEI I know it helps squish it into the grooves, on glass that might help as well. That said if PLA can solve your issue anyways that's awesome, that one layer isn't really going to deform anything even if it hits glass transition temperature. Only thing to worry about is if the ABS distorts critical dimensions or not.
Also oddly enough PLA and TPU don't make an amazing bond, but they do still bond better than PLA/PETG, which is okay I guess since TPU is already crazy-adhesive to the bed, the bond between TPU/PETG is ~2x stronger though, likely temp related at least a bit.
@@Roobotics I have not tried PLA-TPU. Yes, the TPU stuck well on its own. I only use PLA base layer for ABS, PA materials. Sometimes to PETG if it would come up because of its shape. The truth is that I have a self-built printer. It does not have automatic table leveling. This is also the reason why I like the glass table. 😄
I want to buy a Bambulab printer, I will definitely use it with a PEI table.
It works perfectly, thank you for this insightful advice that will save energy and spare me the headaches of warping! With this option, my toolchanger performs much better with the complex parts I love printing in ABS. The PLA layer peels off like butter, leaving no marks at all! The perfect solution!!! Thanks for this experiment, it absolutely deserves more attention!
Yes man we want the test with special filament! Bring on Pp with PLA, Nylon, etc,
Pp wont stick to anything, pc however might
Nylon, pp, PC, ppa-cf is especially interesting for compability and as possibly use for support
That is really cool, and the good thing is that you don’t even need to use a multi head printer - since you (hopefully should) watch the first layer anyway, it is not much of a problem to change the filament after the first layer.
That's 100% correct. I will also do some tests on my (non multi head) MK4 with a manual layer change for the second video.
The thermal stresses that develop as it cools are hard to minimize without the use of a heated chamber for certain materials like abs. The goal for plastics is print them and keep the chamber hot, closer to their glass transition temps (i.e. when the plastic becomes solid again after melting) so that you don't have large thermal stresses develop as the geometry is changing during printing. Less thermal gradient means less warping. Then after printing is finished, cool the part slowly and the final geometry will be much more accurate, though you will still have some dimensional changes during this cooling period too (these are unavoidable but you can plan for them through careful engineering).
Thanks for your comment. You're definitely right.
I know that this is not the best way to print ABS. The idea was rather to show a possibility if you don't have a heated bed or are really trying to drastically reduce your power consumption.
Of course, the shrinkage of materials like ABS cannot be avoided.
I have been using polystyreen as an interface layer for supports for some time. Works well enough on ASA and PETG. I deliberately mention interface layers. I do not print support material completely from polystyreen. This trick reduces the amount of toolchanges saves material, time and wear to your machine.
Great video!
I'd like to see the ABS warp test with PLA as a first layer, with varying bed temps from 60° up to 100°.
This video has good audio! Much better than the last I saw on your channel 👍☺️
Thank you, very happy to hear that!
Real nice find printing ABS on PLA to reduce warping! I do wonder if that also works with ASA on PLA.
Could be revolutionary for occasional ABS/ASA printing on open bed machines!
That's a neat find. Will try this, I don't have MMU so only way I can do this is with "pause at height' method. andincrease temp of nozzle at that height.
Really cool trick, gonna start printing all my ASA with PLA on the bottom. Thanks for the research.
Also was cool seeing you at the 3dprinttopia event today :D Didn't know you were gonna have a booth there.
Definitely a video of printing PETG on a layer of PLA is worth a separate video. Show us your techniques and ideas. Also for those who would be using filament change option on one extruder printers.
So the nylons, the CF-PET, CF HTPA, THE NEW rav of the PPA-CF TOO basically how do these bond with asa, tpu, with these engineering materials.
Definitely interested in seeing nylon added to the mix, I would love to see if there is another material that could be combined like that to reduce the warping/bed adhesion issue
An Idea i had would be to somehow print the infill of every x't layer using PLA to relief internal stress of the ABS while still having the Shell strength of ABS
Just Curious does the number of PLA Layers with the ABS make any difference Im sure after a number of PLA layers the warping of ABS would drop off a great deal and not make any difference. But if you print 3 or 4 layers of PLA and then ABS as opposed to 1 or 2 layers will the warping stop all together? I think a more detailed analsys of layers between PLA and ABS in an unheated and heated chamber would be prudent! Also I am intersted in what JonS has proposed!
Great Test and approach. About PLA as a first layer for ABS: ABS needs those temepratures. It‘s not only about the adhesion of the first layer. The elevated bed temperatures are important for the whole Part not cooling down.
Warping comes from the upper segment of a part shrinking too much and therefore pulling the below layers up.
Try thicker parts or 100 filled cubes 100x100x100 or even bigger.
What you‘ve found is just an edge case and is not used for example in the professional 3DP industry.
Keep your content up and stay curious!
Sincerly
Andreas
One of the tests was literally a warp-test though and did "better" than the pure ABS, butttt I air-quote that part because the printer is also not enclosed and ABS does have a finickyness to getting it to stick, so I'm tempted to say those particular results can't be held as valid, you really never want to print ABS like that if it's anything precise, drafts rob the thermals and make everything shift. Oddly though, I wonder if 60c had less warp due to only adhesion, or because the updraft thermals the bed makes, would be less turbulent and draw in less cooling from the sides?
I wonder how would it warp if someone combined 1-2 layers of PLA every 10-20 layers of ABS. PLA stiffnes should offer a lot of resistance against warping, creating some type of composite material, but I wonder if it would work well.
For ABS you should generally always have enclsoed printer.
@@OldSkullSoldier You could potentially do it as a [solid?] infill layer every so often (so it's not visible)?
Would like to know if pla abs would work open air or not. Even though denomination is reduced for cracking induced?
Hi is there any material thatcould work as first layer for PP?
Warping is not a problem caused by bed adhesion only. You did it on a flat print. For taller or bigger parts conform heating is more important because you get layer seperation. Also its very impectful if you have a lot of long and straight lines/walls in the design which enforces warping significant. Guess what - the Stealthburner cover is exactly counter warping design.
How thick does the layer need to be for the PLA base?
I'm going to try with ASA and PLA
I did one (0.2 mm) layer. You could also try a couple more, maybe two or three. Feel free to let me know how it worked for you!
@@JanTecEngineeringThat's Incredible that such a small layer can help so much! Thank you for finding such a " hack"
I shall try tomorrow I have a bracket on my printer head that is currently PLA but it softens and doesn't grip well.
I'm hoping I can print the part in ASA but I haven't done this as I have a Kobra 2 max and the bed doesn't get very hot and it is not enclosed.
Great information! Thank you for your hard work and sharing it with us! Please test specialty filaments! 👍
For that print with the first layer PLA and the rest of the part in ABS, can you elaborate if you used the PLA bed temperature through the entire print? Or did it go up to abs temp after the first layer? Or somewhere in the middle? Definitely interested in trying that.
I used 65°C bed for the whole print. Consider using 2-3 layers of PLA.
@@JanTecEngineering thank you very much for the quick reply and good info.
Thank you Super helpful video! I would definitely like to see another filament compatibility video in the future, yes.
Thank you for your work, especially the adhesion chart has been very handy. Have you thought about using colouring by layer to make composite-like or lattice prints? Using each color with different material, I wonder how tpu infused with abs will turn out. Love Ur vids.
Do you have a similar trick fo handle the warping of Polypropylene filament?
You could always experiment.
I have been using this for a long time. I change the thread by hand after the first layer. I print on a glass sheet and the PLA adheres to it very strongly. On a PLA base layer, although I have already printed with PA-CF, ABS, PMMA, PETG. It never came up, but it happened that it broke the glass when printing POM material. Unfortunately, this cannot be printed thickly because it shrinks very strongly, even though it is very impact and abrasion resistant.
Awesome video! I’ve seen some videos about concerns with carbon fiber ‘dust’ and I’m wondering - if someone really needs a filament containing CF maybe you’re onto something here and the CF filament could be encased with PLA, ABS, or PETG to reduce the worry about CF fibers and health risks? Do you think CF printing is a health hazard?
I've heard that people print PP with a raft of PETG. Or was it PC? I keep forgetting. One of these, the one that doesn't stick to anything, but apparently sticks to PETG.
Polypropylene doesnt stick to anything(?) but itself. Apparently it sticks to PETG? People used polypropylene glue to make it stay on the fucking bed
Finally someone doing real multi material prints!
Hey JanTec, I think it'd also be interesting to know how two different pla's, can even be of the same brand, bond. That way we'd know if when we're making multicolor prints, if we are sacrificing the strength of our part, we'd have a rough estimate by how much
I would be interested also the combination of PC and other materials, particularly in the contex of warping reduction.
Is not about warping.. is about layer adhesion and finished part.
By controlling the chamber temp you can control the shrinkage (along with clever design and slicing), get the most from the amorphous material, avoid thermal shock, artifacts etc..
ABS needs an enclosure, period, or you better use other materials.
Glad someone said this
I would like to print on an open machine a material that has good resistance to high temperatures, what do you recommend?
@@ilKamuTube PET without the G. Is the best you can get on an open printer reliably. Possibly a blend with FBPE.
On a more specific term: what thermal resistance you need? How many MPa at what temperature?
Apart from the specialities that come with printing ABS, you really dont want to breath in the VOCs that are emitted when printing ABS. A chamber and GOOD ventilation are REQUIRED for ABS. I know, everyone knows this. But safety cannot be stated enough.
The finding for using PLA to hold ABS is so cool! Here is another question, since PLA and ABS stick quite well, and PLA solvent is super toxic. Would it be possible to use ABS juice to glue PLA?
As asa is so bad with warping on larger and thinner parts i would like to see a showcase of alternative supportmaterials to reduce fan requirements for overhangs and bridges.
I was just watching a video by Thomas Sanladerer of Made With Layers and he was saying that PLA doesn't really stick to any other material. After watching this video here I was thinking to use ABS shell on Foaming PLA or PLA Foam core (infill). I kind of wonder about that now. I suppose I'll just have to test it. Good thing is that I'm sure Foaming ASA is still an option in combination with regular ABS or ASA shell if ABS/PLA doesn't bond together well in my case.
My general method to Print ABS is to do it as cold as possible to minimize warping. Even if i have to slow down the printer works fine on Voron 2.4 and X1C
I'd love to see this with fancier filaments. I love my PC-CF, but I'd like to spice it up with some color accents. Luckily I've found that ASA bonds decently well to it, but I'd like to see some more better data on it!
I accidently mixed PETG w/ ABS. I don't see any issues once it was completed.
Do you think that the purge between material change might improve the tensile strength? In other words, don’t purge just print a transition layer.
pla for abs... never thought of that. Clever!
Very interesting to test the same with PC as it requires a hotter heated than abs
Print on PLA tree supports at a height of 5-13mm. No bed heating required, only painter's tape.
I'm interested in leasing more about PC.
Very interested in your PLA/ABS combo. Can you try it with ASA as well?
I would love to see ASA in these, I always use it over ABS.
just found out that you can use petg as a bottom layer for PC to minimize warping. pretty neat
I'd be interested in that experiment with PCTG and PC.
I'd love to see what can be done with nylon! I find myself using nylon often now instead of petg.
Definitely would love to know more about the speciality grade
I printed petg on 230° on exident few days ago. I didnt know petg would evem print that low temp.
I've seen that tire, that is pretty cool.
Would love to see PET-PLA adhesion Specifically PET-CF and PLA+ :)
Would love to see the video with PP for my research work
60C seams too low bed temperature for ABS or ASA. How about using 80C? Too hot for pla layer?
Pla transition temperature is well below 80. This means it would be in a soft state and any force can deform it. Add the temperature from the melted ABS to the situation aaaaaand..
Printing mostly nylon these days, I'd really appreciate some test with it.
Please do this with more filaments like nylon
Maybe use a skirt with the thin PLA layer and ABS?
I'm going to have to invest in a multi-tool conversion for my Voron because these techniques are too good to pass up.
where in the video is the title part ? I want to know how to print ABS without warping...
The hot bed is what causes warping. When I print pacf my bed is set to 40c, and I get perfect prints. No lifting, no warping. I use gluestick on glass.
I don't understand why printing with PLA makes warping on ABS less severe. Increased bed temperature should help prevent warping by minimizing the temperature difference between the lower and upper layers. I don't understand why lowering the bed temperature and printing a single layer of PLA before ABS would cause less warping--the PLA-ABS adhesion strength is worse than ABS-ABS, and I don't think that PLA-Bed adhesion is better than ABS-Bed adhesion, so what's going on here?
Would love to see this on ASA
Sure, idea is good, make more tests, specially cf blends!
Wish I could afford a Prusa XL to do stuff like this.
I'm really hoping prusa comes out with a 300 cubed core xy tool changer. Even 2 or 3 Print heads would be great
@willofthemaker the XL is 350 cubed
@@krollmond7544 true. I honestly thought it was bigger. Although I think the structure is so strange. Why not the vertical struts in the front instead of the half cantilevered frame. Leads to a horrific enclosure solution that requires way too much time to put together. I don't have near enough time for that nonsense
Brilliant!
I would love to see PC and nylon added to the list
Moin
Please test
PLA + ASA /
PLA + PC /
PETG + PC
PLA for 2 layers and add a brim.
Try printing tall/big abs parts without enclosure and heat. Bed adhesion isn't a big problem.
Let's say you want to print a Part in ABS but you want to use the method of using PLA for the first layer to prevent Warping but You also don't have an MMU. How can you accomplish That?
Amazing!!
your pronounciation of PETG (PEET-G) reminds me of Pingu
just disable the heatbed after a couple of layers...and use walls...voila...no more warping
t would be nice if you could add nylon to the test
tthx
Nylon with PETG support
Redo tests with nylon and PC!!!
interesannte idee, mal schauen was dabei rauskommt wenn man abs auf tpu druckt, dann könnte man bei 40c bett bleiben :D
Brim of PLA and ABS on top maybe.
That printer in that config costs ~3700€... I'm jealous ^^
Most youtubers got their printers for free. Its a bit weird to think about
printing abs need enclosure...need heat around the part (like 40+c ) and no wind blowing..then it wont warp. and let it cool down slowly inside the enclosure.
More materials pls
Did stefan told u to pronounce "multi" weirdly like that😅?"
You mean British instead of American?
@@JanTecEngineering the british pronounciation doesn't sound like that. Yours and Stefans is more like a very heavy german accent, which is ok i guess but funny nonetheless
"Relatively strong warping"
He said, printing ABS in open air on a printer and seeming surprised.
PLA raft? or brims?? pla infill XD
Wenn das Video auf englisch ist, wäre es für die internationale Zuschauer bestimmt auch gut, wenn die Grafiktitel Beschriftung auf englisch.
Maybe more than one PLA layer with ABS.
I don't print multi-color items. I print functional parts. This technique of printing PETG for the first layer or two and ABS or ASA for subsequent layers to improve bed adhesion and lower electrical usage by having a cooler heated bed is a good application for me to use a printer with a multi-color feeder, not for different colors but for different materials.
Bambu Lab is releasing a TPU filament that works in their AMS multi reel feeder... presumably a higher durometer TPU. Hopefully other filament manufacturers will follow suit and we can print parts with TPU and ABS, maybe with a PETG first layer or two.
the abs warping test is kind of an unfair test on your printer as abs is susceptible to warping from any air temp change. so printing it in an open air printer is going to cause it to warp either way
Oh so basically I should own a multi-material capable 1200$ printer to do this "trick" :D I could also pay half of that to get an enclosed printer and print ABS with much less hassle and "trickery"
"As I already knew from previous tests, PLA has by far the best layer adhesion" Er, TPU has the best layer adhesion of any of the tested materials. Your mounting solution for the TPU-TPU test was just incorrect for a flexible material. Surely you know this though so why misrepresent the fact?
For fhe Algorithmus 😅
Danke 😄
Finding "tricks" to print ABS on an open air machine AND with a reduced bed temp isn't an achievement that people should be aiming for. At the very least put a cardboard box over the machine to increase the ambient as much as you can and go slow enough to where a fan isn't required and enclose it as much as you can. That way you can print a semi decent ABS part on a machine that isn't meant for it.
I suggest watching this video to better understand what's happening to the part you're printing and how much temperature really affects the quality of the parts you're printing especially when using materials that want a higher ambient like ABS/ASA/PC/PA etc.
If you need an ABS part, at least try to get as close to abs printing conditions as possible - not as far away as possible.
ruclips.net/video/U-RvbcHbEe4/видео.html
First of all, you're right. My go-to ABS setup is also an enlcosed machine with 100 °C + heated bed.
But: there are still printers out there without heated bed (Cetus for example) and if you happen to need a part with better temperature resistance than just PLA, such a method could be useful. Secondly, this is just a concept, that also could be applied to other filaments, like PP, that do not require a warm chamber but won't stick to common print surfaces.
Oah ne, jetzt fängst Du auch noch mit Englisch an ... kann man nicht supporten -.-
Vielen Dank für Deinen Support!