Why More Players Are Dropping Fox
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- Опубликовано: 19 сен 2021
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FUN LARRY FACT: Early in Ultimate’s life, Larry used Fox to beat Nairo 3-2 at Let’s Make Moves
keep it up with the fun larry facts silvesta, i appreciate you
Nairo won that tourney
Youre the main reason I watch larry
Looking forward to another fun larry fact
Sometimes, when i dont have time to watch Larry's video.... I click on Larry's video just to click on the parrot icon for a fun Larry fact.
plz never stop, fuck the haters, lol
basically:
great character who’s stressful to play in bracket and difficult to practice with due to his being inconsistent, especially online
If you ever fall off stage, you can only pray you make it back no matter how you mix it up.
He's basically nonexistent online. He's one of my secondaries, tho. I find him fun, but it sucks dying at 50 because of a minor mistake or lag.
I definitely think Fox is one of the least fun characters to play online. He's like Joker or Sephiroth where they become way more difficult to play
@@kalecraft8906 I agree, he's super satisfying to play offline but online it's an actual *pain.*
@@kalecraft8906 pika and pichu aswell
@@sweettea5166 pichu different cause nerfs he hard to play as a character
@@kalecraft8906 how is Sepiroth hard online? He gets carried over there
Light chars are super frustrating to play especially online. You win neutral 10 times and die first to an unreactable raw smash attack centre stage
yup I feel you, it's so easy to get tilted
Doriyah!
Don’t get hit…no seriously, as a Sephiroth player you gotta live by that rule…
@@CeloTV-cm7nv
>unreactable
>don’t get hit
FOH
@lintecassidy206 think he means dont get in that situation
This is the first time I've actually had to see Bayo's teeter animation and what on god's green earth
Theres no way thats finished.. Right?
@@callmekanda5662 It's just Bayo having flair and being dramatic.
It’s been like that since s4 lol bayo players used to wander to the edge of stage to taunt
If u play fox u have to accept you’ll lose stocks at near 0% against people who just pass the “skill checks” of fox’s recovery
Thats why i have wolf in my top 3 instead of fox lol
I think you used the right words: "taxing", "exhausting", and "frustrating" are the words that come to my mind as well. I am by no means a competitive player, but I consider myself fairly experienced in Smash (been there since Melee) and I was always a Fox main, except in Ultimate.
I feel like whenever I play Fox I need to be 100% focused, almost frame perfect, in every single interaction. As a Fox player, you have the possibility of completly dominating the battle if you are able to react and adjust to every single interaction, but that is definitely very hard to pull off consistently. So at the end, what tends to happen (at least in my experience) is that you more or less dominate the match but then you make one or two mistakes, and then you die. And then you need to go for a comeback, and I firmly believe Fox is one of the worst characters when you are losing. Fox is designed for situations in which you are clearly dominating and you win with a wide margin. If the margin is small, chances are you will make one mistake and that will cost your entire match.
So yeah, it is exhausting, because it takes all your focus all the time to be consistent with Fox. It is taxing, because every minor mistake can cost the entire match. And therefore, it is a pretty frustrating experience to play with Fox at certain levels.
EDIT: I would also add that playing with Fox at a high level is quite restrictive if you want to maximize your chances of winning and minimize risks. For example, you better don't even try to edgeguard, as often times it will be reversed and you will be the one dying. And also, you have very limited options to pull off a kill consistently, either with a raw smash attack or a back air (which isn't even that strong, tbf) and even your nair into up-smash confirm only works in a rather restricted percentage window.
I've been a pika main since 64 and I'm totally with you on how well you have to play but being vulnerable to early deaths.
It's still strange to have people look at Ultimate pika and see it as a threat because I've had to struggle to get dominant wins in every other title.
@@Gumby518 It's funny because for a while I switched to Pikachu in Ultimate, after accepting the reality that Fox was too frustrating for me. Immediately I could see that Pikachu has many more resources than Fox, but like you say, you still need to be on point most of the time.
Then I looked a Captain Falcon and well, it's just way more fun for me. You may play like total crap and still win sometimes with a couple of well executed combos. I don't know, I guess my play style is too inconsistent and I cannot main that kind of characters that demand so much focus all the time.
tax yoshi
I get that. A High risk high reward play style can be annoying.
it feels as if it was I who wrote this, I can totally relate.
His side b not crossing over characters when trying to get off ledge is also a huge factor in him having a worse recovery overall.
crossing over shields?
@@ryuzakilawliet7537 that's what i meant lol
Also was a good ledge option in smash 4
He mentions this around 4:30
Ultimate Fox reminds me of 64 Fox, in 64 he was theoretically the best character in the game and his laser was the best projectile but human error made him a bad character because his recovery easy to edgegaurd just like in ultimate.
In 64 when he touched you, u were in a cutscene and his projectile was amazing compared to his crappy one in ultimate but he does have a better recovery in ultimate.
@@plazema. When any character touches you in 64 you're basically in a cutscene though
@@Saskaruto16 execept Samus
@@mandalorianhunter1 No, its still a cutscene. Just a slightly shorter cutscene tho
@@KIRB881 that would mean in any fighting game, that's the case
I miss the part where you play the character a bit while you talk about them! Besides that, still a great analysis. Thanks :)
I think he just doesn't want to play online anymore
yes !!!
4:54 Damn Fox is getting a little freaky with bayo there 😂
Yeah, Fox can feel weird in Ult to rank and play, even if I do greatly enjoy the char
If they really want to buff him, they could go one of 4 routes
Weight:
-Fox weights 80 or 82(Same as ZSS and Falco)
Recovery:
-Illusion has 20 frame startup again, but still cant crossup shields. Considering how fast Wolf and Falco side B's are, kinda dumb that Fox Illusion is so slow. Wolf and Falco can also combo and kill confirm off theirs as well
Throws:
-Downthrow has less ending lag and knockback to combo into Bair, Fair(Dragodown and Normal), and Upair
Ledge:
-Downtilt has a lower vertical hitbox to better hit ledgehang
I love u my guy. These r some changes I wanted lol
Honestly I don't think this char needs any buffs at all, he's a character that has immense strengths and clear weaknesses. Nice wishlist though, some of the changes you listed aren't bad
These are actually some great ideas
Give us back up tilt 2 framing and ill be happy haha. I feel like all he lacks are stray killing options at higher percentages and edge pressure. So it would go a long way if he has a safer 2 framing option imo.
4:55 Fox getting a little handsy with Bayonetta...
Damn, and here's me just starting to play Fox more seriously. RIP
If you like Fox, quitters dropping him shouldn't stop you
Play who ever you want. Everyone left Pichu and you still see little of them so don’t let that stop you.
I’ve played him since day one, you can too. It’s not hard. Sure he’s light, requires patience and dedication, but if you find him fun then keep playing him.
Leo won a tournament with Byleth and Fox is leagues better, so you’re fine
fox is a good character. why would you drop him bc other people are?
Fox mains hold down the front lines 😂
Fox main here!
I really feel that lucina is fox kryptonite. She's an edgeguard machine. You go offstage as fox and it's game over.
Roy vs fox is just as annoyin.. dying so early to jair and sideb
even little mac can edgeguard fox (dsmash ledge). if anything the problem is the other end lucina gets to recover for free.
I prefer playing against characters like rob with good recovery/edgeguarding, because those attributes are wasted against Fox.
It's 20XX and nobody plays fox.
I remember getting Fox into elite smash (before they nerfed the gsp requirement). I had a lot of difficulty getting him in. Everything is hard to do, he's super susceptible to edge guards (and tech timing is even worse online), and he dies if you sneeze on him. I think I messed up an analogue stick on one of my controllers in my efforts, sometimes it doesn't take inputs the right.
Anyway, he's hard to play well and gets punished harder than other characters. Plus if you're dedicated to the space animals, Wolf and Falco are both more consistent and aren't made of styrofoam.
I’ve been maining fox for ages and it’s gotten to a point where my friends and I have become good enough at the game for me to make a small mistake and either die or be put off stage. I love fox as a character. He gives me a feeling that only Aegis has been able to replicate. But man it hurts to die at the drop of a hat. I’m starting to work with cloud and Aegis. I wish I didn’t have to but for me to keep enjoying the game it feels necessary.
Aegis?
@@BlackieCHan723 pyra and mythra
To be honest Fox is more likely the bottom of High Tier in my opinion. It's not just the awful recovery with the laggy side B which ain't able to go through shields, Fox just lacks a lot in general.
He is one of the very few characters who shouldn't even try to edge guard, because it usually ends with you being in a worse situation often times. Also he can't spike you at all while Wolf and Falco have two different moves for that and it's the same with his throws - None of them combo into anything and won't kill you until very late if ever. He also got like one of the worst grab ranges in the game and zero tools to shield damage efficently which makes holding shield for pretty much everyone a very powerful option.
And if your enemy ever gets like 140% none of your moves will combo into a kill anymore, which means you have to fish for it and since your grabs are no big threat it can be very hard, especially if your enemy has a counter which quite a few characters have in this game.
I will never understand people who place him Top Tier. Even Light goes for a secondary now and I can totally understand that, because he won't to able to climb much higher with Fox only.
I play him a good bit and totally agree but I still think he is high tier and maybe maybe low top tier. His speed and combos are incredible, but his weight and recovery hold him back so much. As you’re completely right about the grabs at least in smash 4 the down throw comboed into fair. He’s high tier or top tier depending on how you play him, which is almost like perfect and not get hit by something stupid to die early.
@@blackwelltray2146 Yea if you play him close to perfect on a constant basis he is insane, but that includes reads etc. and no matter how good you are this ain't 100% under your control. I don't think playing a character just perfect makes him Top Tier otherwise we would find fighters like the Ice Climbers there too. Also I don't think buffing any of his flaws would make him too strong which kinda confirms my placement for him. IMO Top Tier characters don't have such an easy counter play if any at all while Fox definitely has huge weaknesses it's hard to compare him to Palutena for example. I mean just giving any of his moves more shield damage would already make him much more reliable, even with this really abusable recovery.
In most people hand fox is low to bottom tier, you cant turn off your brain and roll your face on the controller like msot character at low level to win
@@alx12345 Doesn't have anything to do with the characters potential nor my comment though.
Agree with a lot of this. I used to main Fox and decided to drop him for Greninja because he felt like a more well-rounded rushdown character to me. Despite being considered a worse character than Fox, it has felt worthwhile for the comparable mobility, much better recovery, throws that can kill, and a less polarizing matchup spread.
fox is by far the character I have the most time played as without getting to elite smash. sometimes I just go on a losing streak and fox seems like shit
Playing online with Fox is just not possible. I've gotten top 32 in 1000+ people tournaments and even I struggled to get him to elite because you can't react to anything on garbage connections.
He either has to nickel and dime the opponent while risking death for a single mistake, or he has to make hard reads on things he should be able to react to.
That Proto v Light clip reminds me of how Zain’s marth just makes Fox crumble in Melee
Shine stall and a faster side b with the ability to go through shield with it will certainly help Fox with this issue, I agree.
I love it when I randomely kill a Fox at 80% with a random back air.
He is just sooooooooo light, thats crazy
The two buffs Fox needs: pull some frames off the startup of side B, and pull some frames off the put-away animation of laser. The first one helps his recovery and lets side B actually be used as an attack, and the second one, while mostly useless, at least lets laser be used to tack on a percent or two in quick moments of downtime, because right now the move has no purpose whatsoever, and no move should have no purpose whatsoever.
Neither of these unbalance him but would make him a lot more fun to play.
They need to remove some of the nerfs they have given him.
Side b should be able to go through shields again. No reason to take that away when he had it for 4 games and the other spacies still have it.
Same with shine stall.
The laser end lag you mentioned as well.
Increase his weight back to 79 where it was in smash 4.
Buff his up air knockback growth so it has a hope of actually killing someone he is juggling at high %.
Then he could be a top tier again where he belongs. He's still gonna get blown up but at least let him have some mixups and a laser so he doesn't have to run at you 100% of the time.
R.I.P melee fox
Hiyaaaaaaa wHAAAAAAaaaaa
Mellow remaster 2025
Off topic, but Bayonetta's teetering animation at 4:33 is surprisingly elegant. She's just vibing.
another thing not mentioned here (I think): there's a percentage past which it gets harder to kill rather than becoming easy, throws don't kill and up air does not connect at the same time, the neutral air kill confirm stops being a kill confirm, forward tilt sends opponent too far not far enough to kill but not close enough to combo. Basically you need to read you opponent into an up-smash but that also gets incredibly risky, the end lag of that move allows someone to come down a platform and still kill you with a dash attack, it is that slow.
You can do bair or nair at really high percents. Other than that, you basically have to assert a lot of pressure. That said, your right it can be hard
@@z-past1454for neutral air to kill the opponent really needs to be in high percentage, back air seems like the safest of all
9:45 most characters would have been edge guarded like that if they just waste their double jump like light did at that moment though
I agree that was a horrible situation for Light to jump in, but I don't think most characters would've been edge guarded in that situation. Most characters wouldn't have been sent that far offstage to begin with so they could directional air dodge to recover and have a faster recovery option to come back to avoid the rest Protobanham's edge guard sequence
Love your videos man, you should do a video about Bayonetta next,either the characters or some of the amazing players like Lima and Mistake!
I reallly wish his ledge grab box was larger. It's one thing that you can intercept easily, that's fair. But it's so easy to hit the two frame because he grabs ledge so late.
He actually has a really big ledgegrab box (Lucas’ for example already is quite big and fox’ is like 1,5x the size of lucas’).
It’s just that he kind of teleports slightly above the ledge during the 2-frame window.
So it would make more sense to remove that than to give him a bigger ledgegrab box.
Oh I see. That’s certainly strange. So it’s kinda like when tether characters tether fast when above the ledge and kinda crash unto the ledge.
Well, whatever the actual reason, being easily two framed on top of being easily intercepted is too much of a disadvantage. It really holds him back.
Can we get a set reaction/breakdown of Tilde v Marss at riptide losers finals? I would love that 😁😁
4:54 Fox looking kinda sus right there 💀
i think the shielding out of run nerf hurts fox SO MUCH. In other games he's able to micro space his grounded movement around the opponents spacing capabilities but in this game if you're running you can't shield immediately making dash dancing significantly nerfed and not even that good of an option. I've tried so hard to built a mang0-esque play style for my fox but the not being able to shield quick enough makes it rough on top of the fact that there is so little end lag in this game making whiff punishing a large amount of options in neutral not capable. Alongside these things there are a lot of characters with low lag disjoints, I can't for the life of me figure out the ness v fox matchup because everything has so little lag and beats out all of foxes options. So many times when I'm playing ultimate I try to dash dance in neutral and just get smacked out of it because I can't properly shield incoming attacks on reaction. The bob and weave aggressive play style that melee has is seemingly impossible with ultimates mechanics and that saddens me because I want to become really good at being aggressive but i feel as I get punished by the game for not sitting back and waiting for my opponent to strike
I hope I'm not coming off as a dick, but play aggressive, in a more intelligent way. That's it really.
@@blackghostcat even the most aggressive pro ultimate players play super passively compared to being aggressive in other fighting games and even melee. Look at a Light match and compare it to a mang0 match. Light also camps out certain characters with fox like samus, proving even more how aggression is punished heavily in this game
It would be great if they buffed his weight just slightly
Also buff side b and add a kill combo from atleast one grab throw
I’ve been trying to play fox as my co main to cover snakes harder matchups and yet all my friends main foxes worst matchups
Not really much of a point in using him then if you're worried about beating your friends. That would be like maining Peach in a friend group of Sephiroth, Simon, Min Min, and Snake mains because people online say she's one of the best characters in the game.
@@RobbertRobbert12345 the point I was trying to make was all the people I practice with play fox worst matchups so he’s hard to get practice with so if I didn’t get that across
It happens but that’s a good chance to get really good with a character
@@Pedurrako is it though when you are still trying to figure him out and get bodied and can’t learn anything
@@legoyoda9026 well, u can watch that replays and see at what you failed or what things u can improve
Fox has only 2 reliable kill options
Up smash and up air
That IMO is what makes him a hassle to use almost no reliable kill options
backair to but thats it
They should just reduce his up B start up, make it as short as Ridley's and he would be much better at recovering
IMO, fox isn't as good as he's been made out to be. It feels like he's going down the same path as inkling, where now that players are deciding to just not let him land his kill options and not let him recover for free he is slowly falling out of viability. I also think fox is just getting more boring as ultimate goes on, but that could just be me, honestly.
It’s not just you, Fox is super boring.
I think there's 2 reasons why I wouldn't say Fox is the most hype character in the game. The first reason is him not having a free flow combo game (his combo game is basically only comboing up airs into more up airs & doing nair into up smash which is kinda lame to watch) & the second reason is him preferring ledge trapping over edge guarding.
@@leoncruise cmon man
@@type7076 if you like playing him don’t listen to any of what we’re saying. Doesn’t matter in the end just have fun with it
Because Mii Brawler exists
Is surfshark something you can replace for Firefox for example?
I played a lot of Fox when I played smash and I noticed one of the issues I had was being too reactive. Idk if that's so much my mentality or if Fox helped incentivise that kind of play.
A: falco is more fun to play
B: wolf is just better
C: fox is cooler
D: Mii brawler exists
Though I’d much rather play fox than Mii brawler, falco is indeed for fun to play
Falco is so cool, Wolf its also great but i feel that he's a little, not slow but "wheighty", Fox requires everything of you and it doesn't feel great, i wish they do with him what they did with Dr.Mario
"You're good, but I'm better!"
- Wolf O'Connell in Star Fox 64
When I bought the game he was my main cause I main him 64 and Melee, he was really fun to play in those games, but in Ultimate is not as enjoyable as playing other characters, at the end I dropped him and then I switch to Link, and then to Byleth...
dropped fox then went to a byleth main :skull:
Everything made perfect sense Larry, great job, keep it up!🤩
Where is my fun Larry fact?
Hey man you should review some of tarik’s games from the SWT EU games. He’s real hype to watch and I think greninja is under represented so it would be cool to see your take on the character!
I hear Persona 5 music in the beginning. Man of culture I see.
What does ORCA mean. I have been wondering for so long and I’ve never heard him mention it
I think it's a rivals of aether reference
He just likes orca's is what he told me a long while ago
Fox not having true combos is the biggest reason hes bad.
Mate half of his kit combos into its self what are you even talking about? Also his kill confirms are true combos.
It honestly barely matters when his neutral goes crazy. Not to mention he DOES have true combos that rack up decent damage in short periods of time.
I'm really bad at melee so playing fox in smash 4/ ultimate sort of gave me the simulation of the speed and rush down of melee but yeah he isnt what he used to be
Larry why byleth and joker are heavier than Sephiroth???
Very informative Larry but, more than half the roster in this game struggles more than Fox and still does. It’s just that people got better overtime, patches that helped “some” of the characters struggling, and lastly Dlc fighters.
Is falco solo-viable? or falls under the same category?
Obviously because you showed them Mii Brawler, and they have now seen the light.
Make side b jump cancellable on hit so that the risk on block is rewarded
Very insightful!
Fox is one of the harder characters to be good with. Just like pika. That's why there's so few in pgr. Fox is weird for a lot of ppl on wifi. I generally struggle on wifi but somehow he's my highest in elite smash. I've kept him at 9 mil for a while now. But he takes a lot of quick precise inputs at an extremely fast rate. So if your brain can't process the game fast enough just pick up falco or wolf. Lol but don't say Fox is overrated. Everyone knows he's at the bottom top tier.
Feel like the weight thing is more of a drawback than what its made out to be. Fox literally dies at 70 for no reason sometimes and its demoralizing but that's what we deal with. Even in matchups where fox is winning; ZSS v fox, he dies most hard hits at 70-80%. Gotta work extra hard to secure stocks because it could be game at any second.
Did Light or Paseriman drop Fox recently?
Last DLC charecter maybe he's
Melee fox
(Or chun-li I hope its Chun li sf2 music is whack sf3 baby)
2 traditional fighters in a row I don’t think will happen
@@deavinmichael3182 two rpg characters in a row happened.
You don't know neither do I.
We'll see, could be sol badguy too
@@lay-lowandsmash1519 I’m confident it won’t happen
FIYAHH
What if we actually got waluigi and he was better than the sacred brawl meta knight
Can’t you still shorten Side B by holding the opposite direction?
I still play fox have since melee and I play him online and I’m in elite smash with him took me forever though
well this aged well
Fox/Falco main and Marth secondary here
I start to play fox because I feel he has potential but mostly because he can take my bad habits.
Bayo was looking real good on that ledge🥸
The spacies designs looked better in melee and they weren’t over complicated and fox said Fiyaaaaah!
Foxes VA has been lacking for two games straight
Hes like a hair away from being incredible, hope the next patch is full of buffs for a bunch of characters
I thought it was only Kazuya's double jump starts up slower, not his initial jump.
Nah, his jump squat is super slow
I didn’t really play smash 4 the way I play ultimate (I was a causal player in Smash for 3ds), but I hear in Sm4sh every character had a unique jump squat and it was changed to all be equal in Smash Ultimate?
@@ShinyMew76 yep, in Ult its 3 frames for all except Kazuya, he's 7 frames
i wonder why they removed shortening
I solo main fox and i agree with everything obiously, good vid.
Solo main fox here. Been praying for illusion buffs for a long time. Next patch surely... right?
I don’t think fox needs any buffs bro, still a great character
I want some Fox buffs please 🙏
@@carldalord not buffs, but fixes
@@elmaionesosexo That’s a buff, he doesn’t need fast illusion so it isn’t a fix
@@carldalord im not talking about the comment, im talking about fox as a character, he needs fixes
i won't quit and i see serious fox players getting better results recently.
Yeah, like Light won CT Gamercon (like 200+ entrants) tournament recently. Fox is still solo-viable, so keep going! :O
Fox is so hard to play as online, you have to be ultra precise or else you're going to eat it.
That side b statement is so accurate......but you said it the best....i tried explaining to my guy bout why i dont play with fox anymore because of this.....fox and falco i used to play with alooooooot on melee......and after melee i was kind of playing with them still just not that much....but ultimate took thw cake of not playing with them all together....well fox i should say.
Falco still is pretty legit....overall....
After picking up Fox to elite smash, I found out why he was very good until a high level play that it’s very hard to win because of either the matchup or skill level to master is very high.
I main Link but I've been thinking of playing Fox instead of the Link ditto against this one guy. When I'm playing well, Fox does feel pretty ridiculous. It takes time to warm up with him though lol.
Not a great secondary tbh.
Fun Larry Fact: Larry plays video games. 👍
I main sheik and second fox, i must be some special kind of masochist
Me: sees title
Also me: but...their not...
I feel Fox mains struggle, I used to main Falco and he suffers from a lot of the same issues. You can do really way, racking up mad percents easily and then die at 0% by a random smash attack and lose the advantage. Getting back can be super frustrating
Both characters require a lot of precision to use, which makes them harder to play online
Bro this comment section wilding. If you die at 0 as Fox you probably just fucked. Y'all acting like he's little mac
I feel VERY called out since I used I was torn on who I should drop, It was either Fox or Roy. Yeaaaah I dropped Fox ;-;
We can all agree that fox’s voice in tr4sh was the most nerfed thing and got better with ult
I like fox smash 4 voice IMO
#BuffFox
Also this is alot of how I feel about MK in this game. Taxing, exhausting, one mistake you can lose sort of stuff. I definitely get the struggle. Hopefully Fox gets some well deserved buffs soon because he deserves to be good. He's great in terms of how he's designed, as he always has been. But those small changed really messed him up. . .
Nice vid Larry
I can imagine the KOrean watching this with tear filled eyes
ThATs RAciSt!!!! >:(
No kill throws or throw combos😭
10:24 forward smash at 93 to 112% is not an early KO 💀💀💀, Fox can kill people at that percent...just bcuz Fox isn't as big as Bowser or Dedede doesn't mean he's just getting tossed everywhere especially considering characters like Wolf, their weight isn't that far above Fox's
And Light took this personally
But i thought it's the player make the character, not the reverse :(
I main him because he's a blast to control.
Sephiroth has the same problem i mean why Sephiroth is so light and Fox ??
to be honest i tired fox and i didn't want to main him mainly cause hes to fast and hes to light so that's why i picked falco up instead
I 100% agree and dropped Fox for Terry my self because Terry can actually side b through shield like S4 Fox used to
I rather be camped and have intengibility on something and survive longer
And also Terry has jab jab into something like S4 Fox used to have lmao
ok but i'm still trying to pick him up because i like playing the underdog without actually playing the underdog 👍
In conclusion, Fox is more of a glass cannon than he ever was.
Hes not even as cannon as he seems because his combos mostly arent true. Hes a glass pistol or smth
Glass knife i would say
Falco next!
Comfy video as of today