So TL;DR version would be: Red Blue (When You Win) Green Black White (How You Win) Red => about trying to narrow down the areas of interaction in the game. You're hoping to either win the game before the opponent has a chance to cast their spells or to make some of their spells irelevant because that's not the angle you're fighting on. #SucceedYouMust Blue => default win as in - if nothing bad happens, you win the game; Inaction is action. #JustDon'tLose Green => perfectly aimed clear power spike in midgame; Precision winning #YouHaveAWindow Black => there is a certain catch that needs to be accounted; conditioned sacrifice #Mini-Quest White => Covers something specific fully; tool-box / wall; #Antidote #YouHaveOneJob // Counters whole team (Veigar, Janna, Poppy etc)
thank you thank you edit: also green including - shielding, healing, buffing and protecting. white - able to do many things and when you get into game you do one thing specifically that the white is able to do or switch during the match due to massive gold lead for example
(Some) timestamps 00:00 Continuing to Define Black 06:35 Defining White 20:52 MTG quadrant theory ~Random stuff, talking with Tolki Head of Strategy and Analytics at T1~ 01:32:52 Short color coding of Aatrox and Shaco. They continue to color code champs, check out LS' twitch vod for that
also there is in general, Long range < Dive/burst < Dive/short range < Stand the ground < long range ]G2 in 2019 got to finals by standing the ground vs red /dive comps
Brilliant video. Keep them coming. Very nice to see a fellow Brazilian being so aknowledges for his deeds. Keep the mtg metaphor going! It’s been really elucidating.
I was asked to remove them/stop uploading them. I believe he intends to upload some himself, or at least highlights of them. For now I can recommend following his twitter (he tweets when he does coaching) or checking his vods every now and then.
Tolki brings out a few excellent points. I'll start by saying i have never played MTG, but as an avid TCG player (YGO for most of my life, HS, LoR and others) i can understand the logic but i cant strictly argue about MTG. That being said i think that the idea of "get champions of the same color" doesn't really work in a draft (for how Colors have been defined), and this is mostly because i see colors as restrictions. If you wanna draft full blue full synergistic comp you'd go something like Vlad - Sej - Veigar - Jinx - Lulu (without talking about LoL meta), and this comp is absolutely horrible because it's all blue. You have a lot of control and reliable scaling but your early game is so ass that anything will run you over. What instead would make sense is to splash some red into it (mabye replace the Sejuani with a Jarvan) so you dont get absolutely rolled early on. Sure the Jarvan will have a miserable time, he'll fall behind individually and wont be able to go for the red gameplay, but he's much better at defending his scaling teammates than a Sejuani would and in the lategame you have so much raw power it barely even matters. Another problem is that Vladimir wants to go in, while Veigar Jinx Lulu want to kite back, so the Vlad wont be scaling as hard as he should. This is for Red and Blue, that have a timing theme (and so you can talk "lategame comp" or "early game comp") but for the other colors it's even harder to work together. Imagine a full Black team, everyone has conditions and tradeoff and no one can support the other 3-4 that need supporting. Green is kinda 2 different things in one color, wich is fine but doesn't help a profane like me understand things; Green can be accellerated and impactful powerspikes (think 2 items yasuo or Klepto Ez, farming gold to get to his huge 2 item spike, or GP) and can be enabling others (enchanters and so on), but overall it makes sense. White being either a specific counter or a generic thing makes very little sense, i mean they are the opposite of one another: Poppy and Malphite can be white because they are only good at countering specific things, so really good at only one thing, but Gragas and GP are also white because they are really flexible and can do everything with mediocre efficiency...? Im a BIG fan of this work, as a former TCG pro that has moved to LoL in the past 4-5 years i am incredibly happy and excited about a project this ambitious and amazing, a legit Nerdgasm, but i'd love for this concept to be reworked, polished and perfected.
it was cool that you added in the supportive part of the green colour to clear up white for you, LS said "Jack of all trades, Master of one", when you pick for example Gragas, he can be a glasscannon damage dealer or a tanky frontline. Once the draft has ended, the player decides "in this game, im playing Gragas as a frontline tank or in this game ill be playing AP burst Gragas". or even, "damn, im getting a lot of gold early instead of tank im going glass cannon". hopefully that helps :-)
@@TyrantBrendorf I see it in a slightly different light tbh. Gragas to me feels like the champion that can do everything in game but nothing particularly well. Adapting his build is definitely a part of it, but my point is that you can pick Gragas really high and then use him as a primary engage, a secondary engage, a frontline disruptor, a backline peeler, a sidelaner, a bursty assassin and a scout; you can have him lane and be the weakside "soak the enemy's pressure" champ, you can have him in an isolated lane (with both teams focusing on botside) where he can forceably go even in almost every matchup or you can have the jungler play for his lane with his gank setup, or you can draft him jungle and you can have him either play for early ganks with flash combos and tons of CC or play him to scale and defend his lanes. He will do almost everything i just listed worse than some other champion (if you want a hard engage there are better options, same for a peeler, a bursty assassin, a frontline tank, a weakside laner, a proactive jungler and so on) but since he can adapt to multiple playstyles you can pick him very early and keep your draft flexible (even if it ends up being weaker than more focused drafts)
@@TyrantBrendorf I'm very late to this conversation but I think that both LS hasn't fully realised *why* his system works the way it does, and everyone involved is misunderstanding White in particular (The healing/support aspect is being moved to Green for some reason and the control is, on paper, being attributed to Blue even as LS goes through individual champ theming and correctly identifies CC as White) Everything is leaning Red or Blue because he's accidentally made that primarily a tempo axis separate from the rest of the pie, at which point Red's longer-term risky volatility and Blue's information-gathering and evasion don't fit the categorisation as well anymore. There's even a point I think Paulo challenges the [Red v Blue = Tempo] connotations with the problem that every colour has strong early and strong late tools, AND that in an ideal manabase a deck would cherrypick utility from all colours without compromising itself. As for White specifically, I think it's clear that nobody in the conversation plays it as a primary colour (I believe Paulo brings up that in competitive play it's usually a sideboard splash for counter-utility.) As a White player myself I think it would be better to describe it as being a rigid controlling force (I agreed with the analogy "White is a hammer.") Thematically if a MtG faction has an organised standing army or police it's White, a zealous organised army it's White/Red, a bureaucratic police force it's White/Blue, and in all these situations White is the colour that's there on the table for you to see and you already know what it wants to do. It's summarised poorly but LS correctly identifies CC as a White trait. Blue is about controlling what gets to be in play, White Control is about controlling what *IS* in a localised play-state. But then for some reason Evasion gets shifted to being a Blue thing when White has almost the same level of access to it, and support/buffs are getting attributed fully to Green?? White does more buff/enchant tech than Green, but Green is generally buffing for raw power and White is buffing for efficiency. White also has by far the most access to First/Double Strike which alongside the CC and buffs says that White is a colour that wants to control how a fight is going to go, further backed by legacy mechanics such as Banding (which *again* White had the most access to) and one-off effects like Odric Master Tactician which just straight give the White player full control over where combat damage goes.
![[Learning Midlane] Tethering/zoning/pressuring Part 2 - Reviews+Drawings](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/oPsLKVKC1_U/mqdefault.jpg)
![LS Goes Through Draft For [G2 vs FNC] & [GG vs TSM]](/img/1.gif)
So TL;DR version would be:
Red Blue (When You Win)
Green Black White (How You Win)
Red => about trying to narrow down the areas of interaction in the game. You're hoping to either win the game before the opponent has a chance to cast their spells or to make some of their spells irelevant because that's not the angle you're fighting on. #SucceedYouMust
Blue => default win as in - if nothing bad happens, you win the game; Inaction is action. #JustDon'tLose
Green => perfectly aimed clear power spike in midgame; Precision winning #YouHaveAWindow
Black => there is a certain catch that needs to be accounted; conditioned sacrifice #Mini-Quest
White => Covers something specific fully; tool-box / wall; #Antidote #YouHaveOneJob // Counters whole team (Veigar, Janna, Poppy etc)
thank you thank you
edit:
also green including - shielding, healing, buffing and protecting.
white - able to do many things and when you get into game you do one thing specifically that the white is able to do or switch during the match due to massive gold lead for example
(Some) timestamps
00:00 Continuing to Define Black
06:35 Defining White
20:52 MTG quadrant theory
~Random stuff, talking with Tolki Head of Strategy and Analytics at T1~
01:32:52 Short color coding of Aatrox and Shaco. They continue to color code champs, check out LS' twitch vod for that
Can you please post the entire champ video? It would mean the world
heyo, the twitch vod where he assigned all the champs, just got deleted it would be really helpful if you upload that last part too, thx
@eravohn Rname
@@lordmax481 I noticed that too late. I don't have the vod :/
@@EravohnRname Oh that's so sad
1:50 "I think Senna is black in general" Omegalul
and lucian is black in general as well
cmonBruh
ikr :D fucking cracked when i heard that one xD ye senna is generaly black lul
@@Gabriel64468 forgot our boy ekko smh
Thanks for uploading! I missed the first half of the stream so timestamps were super helpful!
This topic should get way more attention! Good entertaining, nice and informative discussion. Hands down
also there is in general,
Long range <
Dive/burst <
Dive/short range <
Stand the ground <
long range
]G2 in 2019 got to finals by standing the ground vs red /dive comps
Brilliant video. Keep them coming. Very nice to see a fellow Brazilian being so aknowledges for his deeds. Keep the mtg metaphor going! It’s been really elucidating.
"Senna to me is black" "Lucian to me is also black" thank you captain obvious :P
Only been playing league for a year and i am also nerding out watching this
Very productive discussion. Loved that everyone was very respectful to each other and kinda completed each others ideas
can we have more ls draft analysis if he does any in the future?
Where are your LS coaching videos?
I was asked to remove them/stop uploading them.
I believe he intends to upload some himself, or at least highlights of them.
For now I can recommend following his twitter (he tweets when he does coaching) or checking his vods every now and then.
Do have the Champion part? cause LS doesnt have it anymore on his Twitch Channel, would really appreciate it!
Tolki brings out a few excellent points. I'll start by saying i have never played MTG, but as an avid TCG player (YGO for most of my life, HS, LoR and others) i can understand the logic but i cant strictly argue about MTG.
That being said i think that the idea of "get champions of the same color" doesn't really work in a draft (for how Colors have been defined), and this is mostly because i see colors as restrictions.
If you wanna draft full blue full synergistic comp you'd go something like Vlad - Sej - Veigar - Jinx - Lulu (without talking about LoL meta), and this comp is absolutely horrible because it's all blue.
You have a lot of control and reliable scaling but your early game is so ass that anything will run you over. What instead would make sense is to splash some red into it (mabye replace the Sejuani with a Jarvan) so you dont get absolutely rolled early on. Sure the Jarvan will have a miserable time, he'll fall behind individually and wont be able to go for the red gameplay, but he's much better at defending his scaling teammates than a Sejuani would and in the lategame you have so much raw power it barely even matters. Another problem is that Vladimir wants to go in, while Veigar Jinx Lulu want to kite back, so the Vlad wont be scaling as hard as he should.
This is for Red and Blue, that have a timing theme (and so you can talk "lategame comp" or "early game comp") but for the other colors it's even harder to work together.
Imagine a full Black team, everyone has conditions and tradeoff and no one can support the other 3-4 that need supporting.
Green is kinda 2 different things in one color, wich is fine but doesn't help a profane like me understand things; Green can be accellerated and impactful powerspikes (think 2 items yasuo or Klepto Ez, farming gold to get to his huge 2 item spike, or GP) and can be enabling others (enchanters and so on), but overall it makes sense.
White being either a specific counter or a generic thing makes very little sense, i mean they are the opposite of one another: Poppy and Malphite can be white because they are only good at countering specific things, so really good at only one thing, but Gragas and GP are also white because they are really flexible and can do everything with mediocre efficiency...?
Im a BIG fan of this work, as a former TCG pro that has moved to LoL in the past 4-5 years i am incredibly happy and excited about a project this ambitious and amazing, a legit Nerdgasm, but i'd love for this concept to be reworked, polished and perfected.
it was cool that you added in the supportive part of the green colour
to clear up white for you, LS said "Jack of all trades, Master of one", when you pick for example Gragas, he can be a glasscannon damage dealer or a tanky frontline.
Once the draft has ended, the player decides "in this game, im playing Gragas as a frontline tank or in this game ill be playing AP burst Gragas". or even, "damn, im getting a lot of gold early instead of tank im going glass cannon". hopefully that helps :-)
@@TyrantBrendorf I see it in a slightly different light tbh.
Gragas to me feels like the champion that can do everything in game but nothing particularly well. Adapting his build is definitely a part of it, but my point is that you can pick Gragas really high and then use him as a primary engage, a secondary engage, a frontline disruptor, a backline peeler, a sidelaner, a bursty assassin and a scout; you can have him lane and be the weakside "soak the enemy's pressure" champ, you can have him in an isolated lane (with both teams focusing on botside) where he can forceably go even in almost every matchup or you can have the jungler play for his lane with his gank setup, or you can draft him jungle and you can have him either play for early ganks with flash combos and tons of CC or play him to scale and defend his lanes.
He will do almost everything i just listed worse than some other champion (if you want a hard engage there are better options, same for a peeler, a bursty assassin, a frontline tank, a weakside laner, a proactive jungler and so on) but since he can adapt to multiple playstyles you can pick him very early and keep your draft flexible (even if it ends up being weaker than more focused drafts)
@@TyrantBrendorf I'm very late to this conversation but I think that both LS hasn't fully realised *why* his system works the way it does, and everyone involved is misunderstanding White in particular (The healing/support aspect is being moved to Green for some reason and the control is, on paper, being attributed to Blue even as LS goes through individual champ theming and correctly identifies CC as White)
Everything is leaning Red or Blue because he's accidentally made that primarily a tempo axis separate from the rest of the pie, at which point Red's longer-term risky volatility and Blue's information-gathering and evasion don't fit the categorisation as well anymore. There's even a point I think Paulo challenges the [Red v Blue = Tempo] connotations with the problem that every colour has strong early and strong late tools, AND that in an ideal manabase a deck would cherrypick utility from all colours without compromising itself.
As for White specifically, I think it's clear that nobody in the conversation plays it as a primary colour (I believe Paulo brings up that in competitive play it's usually a sideboard splash for counter-utility.) As a White player myself I think it would be better to describe it as being a rigid controlling force (I agreed with the analogy "White is a hammer.") Thematically if a MtG faction has an organised standing army or police it's White, a zealous organised army it's White/Red, a bureaucratic police force it's White/Blue, and in all these situations White is the colour that's there on the table for you to see and you already know what it wants to do.
It's summarised poorly but LS correctly identifies CC as a White trait. Blue is about controlling what gets to be in play, White Control is about controlling what *IS* in a localised play-state.
But then for some reason Evasion gets shifted to being a Blue thing when White has almost the same level of access to it, and support/buffs are getting attributed fully to Green?? White does more buff/enchant tech than Green, but Green is generally buffing for raw power and White is buffing for efficiency. White also has by far the most access to First/Double Strike which alongside the CC and buffs says that White is a colour that wants to control how a fight is going to go, further backed by legacy mechanics such as Banding (which *again* White had the most access to) and one-off effects like Odric Master Tactician which just straight give the White player full control over where combat damage goes.
thanks for the upload :)
did he finish and post the excel sheet?
No not yet. They were supposed to do a part 2 where they color code all the champs but it hasn't happened yet.
Did he ever fully cover the MTG colors for Champions? Is there a video of this that you're planning to upload?
He hasn't done another MTG stream yet
@@EravohnRname Okay, Thank you so much.
a new 'build' could change champions color ? lets say nasus, quas nasus is white but normal nasus is blue green?
did you take down the coaching videos?
Yes I was asked to
There isn't much value in assigning colours if you don't show how to react to them, its essentially just giving a new name to each champion otherwise.
53:00 owned ls xD