I always imagined Major Kira struggling not to call her that perjorative that is stuck in the middle of the name Scunthorpe, or whatever the Bajoran equivalent is.
I cringed every time she walked onto the set, knowing we were about to see arrogance ooze out of the screen. If that actress isn't like that in real life, I would have to call her an excellent actress.
you should cringe hard with that character. Kai Winn is the classic hypocrite that would happily join any system including Religion and political to gather power.
@bigbadcreoledaddy actually, the captain of the barge of the dead is Kortar, the first klingon created. He slew the gods and this is, presumably, his punishment. Khaless is the warrior responsible for shaping klingon society.
I know it was probably not the intention of the writers, but Picard's speech in Who Watches the Watches comes off more as him trying to shoot down the idea that he himself is a deity that should be worshiped. It would also be a massive violation of the Prime Directive, which seems to be the closest thing Picard himself has to a religious belief. I suspect Picard would have no issue with pre-warp cultures that developed their own religions without outside influence and would probably discourage Starfleet from trying to get rid of their beliefs because again it would violate the Prime Directive.
He's all about allowing a people to develop on their terms. His opposition to faith in this also came from him stating those people had thrown away faith an superstition long ago for logic and reasoning so he didn't want them to lose all they just gained and go back to ignorance because they fucked up in secretly spying on them
@@KingoftheJuice18Yup. While he doesn't want the weight of a religion based on him on his conscience, he CLEARLY also describes religion as something incompatible with the 24th Century society based on rationality and compassion.
The satisfaction of material needs, even if this is possible in the future, does not do away with the variety of psychological, spiritual, or existential needs people have. In fact, no longer needing to concentrate on "making a living" can free people up to focus more on higher pursuits and questions about why we are here.
As a side note, I'd expect that a lot of humans would actively try to adopt alien religions. I'm guessing that there are more than a few non-Emissary humans that would follow the Prophets, especially after the wormhole was discovered.
Would they? I think that those types would be REALLY rare and, frankly, would be often the weirdos, cranks and mentally unstable. Starfleet crews have been sailing the cosmic winds for centuries by the time of TNG/DS9. LOTTA close calls with "Gods" but literally every single time SCIENCE wins the day. I mean the "Resurrection" of Klingon Muhammed/Jesus was done via cloning. I don't think there's a chance (Outside of BS story druthers with any given writer) of most Federation citizens thinking there is some transcendent "gods" in the Bajorian wormhole. Most would be "Oh... Transdimensional non corporeal beings who exist out of linear time? How many of them does this make now? The Organians, the Q, whatever that thing was that knocked up Troi... We've seen this before. It's not "unknowable" or a "mystery" per se.
My theory has always been that a more conservative group of humans inhabit the colony worlds. They left earth some time ago but kept their religious views.
Excellent video!!! Religion is one of my favorite subjects in Star Trek, I love how it was handled during the TNG/DS9/VOY era. I think Voyager has the best episodes that explore religion and supernatural belief: Emanations, Sacred Ground, Coda, Mortal Coil, and Barge of the Dead.
Great topic. One of my favorite episodes is TNG's "Tapestry" where Q claims to be God and Picard's response to that LOL. As a religious man myself, I always think of my faith or ideals as more of a way of life and philosophy. Many like to think that all religion is just "Blind Faith" but I treat it as a "World view" behind the purpose of existence supported by observable data. I always found it interesting how humans in Star Trek have collected so much data while exploring but have been very cautious to not make any hard conclusions. Would Humans Star to worship Qs as Gods after learning about their power? Even if a majority don't, the idea of a being with that type of power made public would sends waves.
I think this illustrates why DS9 is best Trek for me, because instead of handwaving away religion and money it incorporates them into its narrative and makes the world of Star Trek feel more authentic. There will always be people who want to believe in something beyond what is known and there will always be people who want something in return for their labor. I am willing to believe that Starfleet officers choose to serve because they want to and not because of a paycheck, but if you go anywhere outside of the Federation you need to pay for things. The Ferengi wouldn't be able to obtain latinum of lots of other people weren't using it.
Here's the thing, on Star Trek, alien monocultures generally represent the perceived issues humans currently deal with, things that our future in-universe counterparts have gotten over. Ferengi capitalism is not, in any way, depicted as a positive thing. They crank the exploitation up to 11 and don't allow their women to participate. It's not there in DS9 as a welcome alternative, it's a dark mirror pointed at our current selves.
I've always found it humorous that TNG generally seens to portray Picard as agnostic. Yet in S6E15 "Tapestry" when Picard apparently dies and Q offers Picard a do over, Picard gets awfully upset over the possibility that Q might be the god that created humanity. S1E8 "Justice" makes me wonder why Picard seems to adhere so strictly to agnosticisn. In the episode the Enterprise detects a strange ship oartially phasing into our soace that we learn is worshipped by the Edo as their god. At one point the ship/entity confirms it is the Edo's god and even threatens the Enterprise after Picard brings an Edo on board. In a case of "if it walks like a duck" Picard ultimately regards the shop/entity as a god. And yet Picard continues on seemingly regarding the religious history of Earth as entirely a matter of fiction. Surely, Picard's academy classes included an overview of TOS S2E2 "Who Mourns for Adonais?". Kirk & company meet Apollo and learn that he and his fellow Greek Olympians were real and were deities on Earth. Maybe they were powerful aliens, but it also could ve a case of "if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then its a duck." I've also found DS9 S1E20 "In the Hands of the Prophets" to be clumsy and kind of silly thematically. DS9 clearly demonstrates that the Prophets/wormhole aliens are not simply mercurial aliens but really are the gods of Bajor. Time and again the Prophets act on behalf of Bajor in miraculous ways. The premise of the episode is contrary to the premise of the entire show
Thank you for this thoughtful episode. However, having Kai Winn as the thumbnail for this video was unsettling lol. That woman was a mess, to put it mildly. Excellent actress though! Terrifying and arrogant and insecure and so many other things all portrayed very well throughout DS9. Thank you again for the video! God be with you out there everybody. ✝️ :)
I have a feeling religion in Star Trek's future may be more like how we approach "dead" religions (i.e. Ancient Greek, Egyptian, Norse mythologies) now, or like how Japan sees Christianity -- as interesting stories with cultural relevance, but not really taken as literature and culture, not literal fact. Somebody wearing religious symbols in the 24th century might be no different than how somebody might sew their country's flag on their backpack -- as a way of showing pride and interest in Earth's history and culture -- without taking it too literally, and definitely not to the dangerous extremes that some people today do. A cross necklace may be no different to them than an Ankh bought at Hot Topic is to most of us.
A lot of what was said about Deep Space Nine is why I think DS9 is good sci-fi, but bad 'Star Trek'. To me, I think TNG was and still is the purest form of Star Trek; as it was unapologetically optimistic and enlightened. I feel that after Gene's death, Star Trek became terribly contemporary. As for TOS; it's decent, but obviously had a lot of executive meddling; Gene's hands were tied most of the times.
It's just that by the 24th century everybody on Earth is an Episcopalian and wouldn't do anything as vulgar as talking about God or anything, except as an abstract concept divorced from the idea that an all powerful being might actually be real. This happens even when they meet beings who are pretty close to gods. Seems like good old fashioned English empiricism won out in the end. /s
For me, as someone raised baptist, Picard never seemed to bother me. As captain of the fleet's flagship and one tasked with exploration they would have picked a captain who is very strongly aware at how less developed cultures could mis-interpret their technology as magic, and Picard (or another of his crew. See also Data when he was unable to access his memories because of the radiation of the thing he was sent to deal with) negatively altering new cultures so that they would use faith as a crutch as in their view 'god has alreayd provided and been demonstrated as real and tangible.' Plus Picard has probably seen all of Kirk's mission briefs where you have starfleet captains tinkering with societies and ending up making third reigt germans, or romans, or whatever along with all the energy beings, the organians, etc that display godlike abilities while simply being more advanced than star fleet and the federation. Plus i suspect Picard's then adimant refutation of faith wa also because he was already stressed and upset at the meddling that had already taken place and was trying to salvage things. Then again Picard was never truly in danger. For he had never seen the Koala. I suspect that's what Kirk's 'Oh My' was before he died. I personally think there are many faiths of varying varieties and intensities. Then again my own personal belief is best sumed up by: God gave us free will. He gave us a universe we could figure out so that we would not view 'god' as an inevetable concept thus we have faith rather than fear of being struck down by a vengeful or perhaps neglectful father.
Bread and Circuses (TOS) was not about the Prime Directive being violated. It was an examination of what Trek called Hansen's Theory of Parallel Development. The society on that planet had progressed at a rate where their age of enlightenment came not during the iron age, but the technological revolution. Uhura told the clueless Kirk, Spock and McCoy, that after listening to the radio and television broadcasts, she had realized that the growing sect wasn't sun worshipers, they were SON worshipers. Even as a youngster who is Christian, I got a real charge out of that. 😃☝✝
I got two things to criticize about comparing the Federation to a socialist structure: 1.) Utopiaism is highly disfavored in socialist, Marxist, Communist, etc circles. People did utopian socialism and it failed. Literally Engles wrote about this. 2.) Outside of Leninist models, a centralized state like the Federation is not conducive to creating a stateless society. That's what communism is... moneyless and *stateless.* Even Lenin described the Soviet Union as a transitional structure to socialism and communism. Whenever I think of the Federation of Planets, in the shows and movies as well as thoughts and intentions of the creators, I get liberal vibes hardcore. The most successful social democracy in their history and even post-capitalist... but it's still lib. Socialism is a bit more than progressive coolness and economic transition to a post-scarcity model. There's great deal to talk about hierarchy, watch is core point to socialism from the beginning. Federalism by its very nature is about enforced hierarchies via centralizing power. And, like how many Star Trek episodes point out, you see how the Federation fails this check because it's still too much like the United States and other irl countries. But this video's about religion... Well, people's relationship to religion was pretty different a couple hundred years ago. Don't be surprised that changes again some hundreds of years from too.
Roddenberry was pretty clear that humanity "getting over religion" was one of the necessities to reaching his idea of a human Utopia where we all actually work together.
Sounds like communist’s persecution of religion, by basically killing whoever practices it and completely ban it. One thing can’t be denied, the greatest scientist in history was a Christian, and the first human in space was also Christian. Believing that religion stops human progress is pure nonsense and sounds pretty much fascist.
Religions can wax and wane but there have been cultural holdovers. We see this with incorporation and reference to past religions and recontextualization of practices and paraphernalia.
A few years ago, Gene Roddenberry's son Rod Roddenberry created a Star Trek car emblem that was styled after the Christian symbol Ichthys, AKA the Jesus fish. It had a Crome fish body with the word "TREK" inside and had warp nacelles for tail fins. He created it as a way to tell people that we can continue to discuss our origins but, as a species, we should focus on the future and where we're going. I used to have that emblem on my old car.
I like the alternate Jesus fish symbols. I've seen a fish with legs with DARWIN written in it, and one shaped like a rocket for SCIENCE. A Nacelle TREK fish is definitely something I'd put on my car if I drove!
Now what is interesting is how Christianity is so commonly tied with individualism and capitalism in American mindset. Eastern Orthodoxy makes a big emphasis on cooperation and the unity over individuality. This is why communism had a great leverage in Russia, for instance.
I feel like in Star Trek for most humans religion is more of a cultural history thing… the same way we treat “dead” religions and like how people still say “oh my god” despite not being religious themselves.
To me it seams that religion is fought against with the saying "Man is the measure of all things". or "Man is a species greater than there is a "Higher power" than what that we humans can understand. My position is that man is Not the measure of all things. To say we are is to put humanity at an arrogantly high level of species in the universe; that we have the power to shape the universe to our liking. We are what we are and we are Not god{s).
@TheMysteryDriver I read somewhere (pre-internet) that the phrase came from the writer and director of Star Trek V, Bill Shatner himself. Shatner said he was always tickled pink by the phrase Deus Ex Machina (tr. God From The Machine), thinking what would God need with a machine?!
@@phelimridley6727 Lol, it's a phrase from Anceint Greek theater, where actors playing the olympian gods would be lowered onto the stage via a crane--a machine.
@@DrFranklynAnderson correct. Bill Shatner knew where the phrase came from, but found himself asking the question rhetorically "what would God need with a machine?!"
religion often seems to address the anxieties of society. Fear of the forces of nature. Protestant Ethic. Attempts to answer why people do evil. Religion marries philosophy and ritual in a way that attempts to resolve that. Despite many references to Earth being like living in paradise, people still strive but are not left to destitution. Religion, therefore, probably still does have some role, even if it's no longer called religion. Improving ourselves and our societies is a missionary spirit, after all
I actually think the Gene Roddenberry could be better described as a pantheist. There are references to Spinoza in the second pilot of TOS, and the religion of the Vulcans seems to be in some ways inspired by Spinozas philosophy.
Well, I think the question NEEDS to directed at all the races in the Star Trek; I'm terribly curious why every humanoid/etc. besides earthlings have exclusively one monolithic religion for an entire species population! That's unreal lol the most diverse it seems to get is The Prophets and The Pagh Wraiths
10:03 What on earth are you talking about, Catholism might tie your salvation to tithe but protestants don't. "Salvation is a gift you cannot earn it" is more or less their take. As someone who has identified as Baptist I assure you tithe has nothing to do with heaven, hell, or any of that. You are ordered to pay 10% to your church but that church is also expected to do good things for the community it's a proto-welfare. Unfortunately the simple fact of the matter is most churches aren't as good about that as they are at saving up for a bigger building. Humans suck lol. But yeah no tithe being linked to salvation is a bizarre concept to me personally and I grew up in church.
as for the future, things change. Christianity was a very top down religion from the Pope till the Reformation broke it up. Judaism was centered on the temple till after the destruction of the temple in AD 70. even as 'formal' Christianity is on the decline in the developed countries it's exploding in growth in places like Africa. so projecting just a few decades out can iffy at best.
Federation is not socialist like you said. Pikards brother on Earth has his own vineyard. Siscos father on earth has his own restaurant. Thats private property free market system. And Starfleet is military organisation. Priority is duty.
Your mentioning of how scientists can be religious puts me in mind of a true story that really illustrates that point: In 1892 a young businessman was sharing a train car with an older gentleman. The young man was reading new scientific journals being published by the local university, and noticed the old man was reading the Bible. The young man chastised the old man for reading a bunch of "fables and fairy tales" and that science had shown such things to be useless. The old man asked if science had really done that. The young man assured him it had, but since he was getting off at the next stop perhaps the old man could give him his address so he could mail him the appropriate scientific documents? The old man handed him his business card which read: Professor Doctor Louis Pasteur, Director General of the Institute of Scientific Investigations, National University of France.
Hey Tyler! Just want to say Thank You - for all the work, research and effort you put into making these interesting essays. I'm pushing 50 myself and new CBS-Trek just isn't for me, but since Star Trek means A LOT to me, I feel more at home in the novelverse these dark days. On the same level, I enjoy books going deeper into the matters that are just scratched on the shows, essay-collections on ST and philosophy etc, or Manu Saadias 'Trekonomics'. Your videos are great companion pieces to the written texts and I'm looking forward to every one of them! Cheers Mate! :-)
12:54 I We'll go ahead and point out. The leader of the USA's atheist organization sent scathing letters and complaints to the President and Congress after those astronauts read that passage and because those astronauts read that passage.
I have noticed online a rise in paganism. This leads me to believe that religion is never going to go away as long as people die. Life is very short compared to the galaxy. At some point the need to feel like there is more to come kicks in.
Any projections of the future population levels of the earth in Star Trek are always going to be almost impossible to accurately calculate. This is because mankind in Star Trek's future is a star spanning civilization spread out on hundreds of planets. Surely such a star spanning, and constantly expanding, civilization would at least to some extent significantly empty out Earth's population.
Most of the estimates for Earth's "carrying capacity" are about 8 billion, a.k.a. our planet's current population, so I definitely think that with more efficient resource distribution the 9 billion figure that's been floated in beta canon doesn't seem too out of the ordinary.
@@OrangeRiverIsaac Arthur suggests a trillion or so before heat becomes a problem. 😄 Maybe not with current food technology, but certainly tens of billions.
If the estimation is that Islam will overtake Christianity, why are elements of Islam not discussed in the video, but Christianity (specifically tithing) are..? 🤔
@@OrangeRiver I understand where you are coming from... Excellent video (I liked and am subscribed). Tithing (Zakat) is a thing in Islam, as well as the a version of evengelicalism. It's a frought topic, though, and because of that, it doesn't often get discussed by non-Muslims. The Zakat (Islam's version of tithing and one of the four pillars of the faith) would have been an interesting topic. Every Muslim -- male or female -- must pay the Zakat at different rates on crops, harvests, herds, gold and silver, cash, profit from business and on investments. With different rates on different possessions, Zakat can become as complex as the United States Tax Code. Comparing the Zakat to the Ferengi's complex association of money & religion would have been intriguing. I do not have the skills or knowledge to make such a video, and am not criticizing your either - please understand this, as I have great respect for you and your work.
At the end of the day, Star Trek is meant to depict a future where all are accepted and welcomed. Realistically, it's unlikely that religion in the 23rd century and beyond would be recognizable to us in the modern day, but seeing as religion plays a major role in a majority of people's lives today, Trek being openly Atheistic/Anti-Theist would alienate a lot of people. As an Atheist myself, as long Star Trek continues to embrace Secular Humanism as it's guiding philosophy, I see no issue with religion continuing to exist among humans or within the Federation.
Really good episode Taylor! I'd like to think that in the future religion will be practised as a philosophy and they get rid of the hate and cultist interpretation. I'm not religious, but I consider myself a spiritual person. We have to have room for the unknown. 🖖😁🤘🇨🇦🕊️
An important thing to add is that humanism started as a philosophy within Christianity; that humans had inherent worth that was imparted to them by God, and that was part of why they needed to aspire to become better. Then, later down the road, secular humanism arrived from people who liked the philosophical concepts of humanity improving itself but didn't believe in God (or, did but only in a deistic sense). I think that it's likely that, under this communistic/anarchistic future, Christianity and other religions may return to this form of philosophy. The really big question is the outcome of the current fight between modernism (Christianity as moral truth but not literal) and Fundamentalism and Neo-Orthodoxy (Both believe in the Bible as being literally true, but differ in other aspects). Maybe the Eugenics Wars and WWIII revive the modernists in the Trek Future, or maybe they all learn to get along after the horrors of that nuclear conflict. It's all speculative at this point Edit: this comment was written from the perspective of a Protestant. I am not qualified to talk about Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox denominations, though from my own limited understanding they have each their own form of the modernism vs 'orthodoxy' dispute going on.
There's a great part in DS9 where Jake calles his father's role as "the emissary" as basically dumb or silly. And Sisko explains that it's not silly to the Bajorans. That they may see wormhole aliens, but the Bajorans see prophets, and there's no reason to dismiss that belief simply because they dont' share it. To me that nails what I think Ira Steven Behr's philsophy is for that show. A kind of "everyone is entitled to their own beleifs and there are many truths" philosophy of religion.
The biggest underlying difference between ST and SW is that Gene Roddenberry was hostile to religion, and George Lucas was influenced by Eastern religions .
I think most simply, if you have an egalitarian governmen based on reason, science, diversiy, and cooperation, ....you take the incentive away from the aggressive religions to try to amass power and social control, (Just like it'd remove the incentives for something 'socialist' to devolve into a personality cult that only considers said religions a rival, or perhaps usefully-enabling political party, basically.) Basically it's a lot easier to have actual religious freedom if your own beliefs aren't actually forced to become your neighbor's business, especially if said authoritaria-based religion doesn't want said neighbors to exist. If it's not a big deal it's not a big deal, that way, whoever you are. So I figure Star Trek's world just takes the pressure and, well, hazard off by denying that kind of power to people who'd use religion to gain it.
It's easy for a former christian athiest to say that nothing would be lost if religion disappeared from the world. The cultures of chrsitian majority Christian countries are very secular and so while the culture isn't totally divorced from religion, you really wouldn't be losing much. Its not quite the same thing for some other groups like Jews where relgion-culture-peoplehood are all very closely tied together, to the point that a lot of athiest Jewish people will still go to synagogue for high holidays and observe some of the customs even if they don't believe in God. And given what the Jewish people have gone through, its pretty disturbing we've never seen a Jewish character, athiest or otherwise.
I remember believing that once we get to space, religion would just disappear because we don't need it anymore, when I was like 15. I don't view it as a bad thing on an individual level anymore, but my view of institutional religion has only gotten more jaded. Maybe it's possible that faith in the Trek future Earth exists on a personal and community level, but institutions like the Vatican either don't exist or don't serve the same function as they do today.
We hope the Vatican won’t exist, but it could turn out that in the future if we make it to become a multi system civilization, that ppl become more religious than ever, due to the new things we will have no explanation for… so I’d rather we don’t have a Vatican, and not a very powerful space based, photon torpedo wielding faction of zealots
@@evangelicae_rationis I have no idea off the top of my head but I'm not going to assume that he did. Not claiming "space = atheism," like I might have when I was, again, 15, but I think a global society would probably have less need for it as an organization, and instead we'd adopt it as a personal, spiritual thing.
Extrapolating a percentage with a straight line is one of the best examples of how people latee declare statistics "a big lie"... Seriously, You should have used an exponent at least.
I think there is a sect of Atheism w 14:17 hich Picard Follows, of the Evolved Human. The idea that Humans outgrew their bad aspects, and are on the path to be like gods. It may be the predominant philosophy, but it too falls under many of the same traps of religion, which the aspect of the Dominion War shown, where humans is pushed become as barbaric as ever.
One thing Brannon Braga always talks about is how interesting he finds it that Star Trek kept coming back to Godlike beings, and that The Next Generation in particular basically has a recurring character who is, in essence, actually God (the the sense of how God is portrayed in the old testament), and who guides the crew of the Enterprise forward in their growth. And, Braga says, this character was created by Gene Roddenberry, an atheist. Roddenberry made God a character in Star Trek, named him Q, and let him breathe without tearing him down. Think about that.
Q has godlike power, like a few characters in star trek and fiction, but no he isn't God. And idk about tearing him down, he has generally acted as a bad guy or at least an asshole and in some situations he's pathetic.
@@jesusjuice7401 God acts that way a lot in the Old Testament too, objectively speaking. He shepards His creations through important life lessons by forcing them into defeat. While He is omnipotent and all-powerful, He is not always a merciful God - but ultimately, everything He does is intended to push humanity in the direction we need to go. Picard laughs at the idea that Q is God in "Tapestry", but 99% of what Q does in the series is actually consistent with God as he's presented in the Bible. The Q incident with the Borg in "Q Who" might as well be God giving His creations a little lesson. It's on point. I don't always agree with Brannon Braga, but this is a very astute observation of his.
Well obesity is a choice by the 23th century so that's why you don't see any normal looking people. Now as far as normal looking fit people go Bones with his cranky demeanor seems pretty normal by 21st century standards.
@@dougs7367 she said it in the Magna Roma episode when they realised the persecuted religion was Christianity. Uhura seemed to be Christian, was the impression.
@OrangeRiver i kind of knew that, i was referring to humans using currency, which they did. Reference TNG, Riker contacts Quark. Riker gives Quark the latinum Quark owes him, for information, I think, or help, I forget which. So maybe humans use it only when dealing with off worlders.
@@rickjohnston2667 agnostics and atheists have terrible fertility rates. Amish numbers have been increasing very rapidly for hundreds of years. Mormons doing very well too, and not expected to decline unlike most Muslim groups.
There is also a ton of Hermetic symbolism in Star Trek. This includes the idea of the Travelers, that Wesley could transcend his physical form through his own journey of consciousness (perhaps over many lifetimes, though that isn't explored) and that humans may one day be as advanced as Qs. There is a great video on the topic by The Modern Alchemist. Another thing not mentioned, T'Kuvma is a religious extremist. It's a very interesting portrayal and shows how even a warp capable society could be taken in by extremism.
I always thought it was interesting how Picard gave that speech in "Who watches the Watchers," but in "Disaster" when he is trapped in a turbolift with three crying and sacred children, he looks up as if asking for some divine intervention.
@@OrangeRiver I believe you're correct on that front, although accelerationist believe some quasi form of capitalism would lead to it as it currently is The West is the only place on earth or in history which has people in poverty who are fat I'd say that's probably approaching post scarcity
I remember Crazy Matt Decker saying, "They say there is no Devil.." I always went back to that line when I thought about human religion in star trek. But I guess that's just the old ways.
One thing I will point out that may be overlooked here on the original series the episode The Mark of Gideon where they had a planet that had massive overpopulation because of minimal dying from old age and no contraception, was at least in part a response to humanae vitae which was promulgated by Pope Paul VI earlier that year.
Mind, criticizing religion isn't a disbelief in God, in some form or another. Many of Roddenberry's episodes spoke on the existence of God, with even crew members of TOS being open to being shown God exists. Religion, on the other hand, is often corrupt, led by abusive 'shepherds'. I don't blame him for being critical of religion, but not so critical at the idea of intelligent creation. I think i managed to type this mostly typo-free despite a chihuahua puppy trying to prove there is no god by trying to walk on my keyboard... EDIT: China only accepts state-sanctioned forms of those religions, you know, it's not a great country--especially as they paint their food and their meat to look fresh, and torture anyone who doesn't adhere to the strict guidelines of state sanctioned religion--to reference about humanism and secularism. There's nothing about it that works.
I always think the questions of religion and economics in Star Trek are where fans (and the writers, when they try to tackle the issues in some way) are off-base. Because it's the wrong question in each instance. It's always "is Star Trek socialist?" for instance. And then follows all the arguments. Same with the place of religion in Star Trek. But on both points, this is where we, as denizens of OUR time, simply cannot wrap our heads around what it would be like for these people living 300 to 400 years from now. Socialism is a modern term that has a (somewhat loose) definition and certain connotations (even if these are often misinterpretations, or simply wrong). We assume, at any rate, that our modern idea of "socialism" is somehow universal, across culture and time. But why should it be? It's pretty clear that Star Trek isn't "capitalist," but is it "socialist" as we usually think of the term today? See, I think that a world that has replicator technology (and yes, I know there's "canon" that implies that TOS didn't have "replicators" per se, but I've always called BS on that. Clearly "replication" of needed materials in SOME form is a technology that is basic to Star Trek going back to TOS) is one that totally changes the game "economically" for the human race. It IS post-scarcity, even if raw material is still needed in some form in order to replicate a needed object or material. Sure, if we try to get into the minutiae of it too much, we can do all kinds of angels-on-the-heads-of-pins arguing back and forth... but basically, we never stop long enough to consider the impact it would have on our species to have everything we could possibly need or want at the push of a button. Food, shelter, clothing, etc. etc. Is that "socialist," or is it something else that we're not really capable of grasping? Because, let's say you grab someone from the Stone Age and try to explain our modern banking system to them, and the way our economy works. (Never mind trying to explain our technology). We think that because our modern minds have dreamed up this Star Trek future that we can map out every little corner of how it works... it's just what we can imagine and dream up, right? But if we can never really explain how a transporter ACTUALLY works, for example... then why do we assume we can explain the economy of the 23rd century? Star Trek's earth society is an enigma to us because it is humanity after passing a boundary which we don't even understand. They've left us in the dust. We're the past to them. Technologically, economically, philosphically, governmentally, and in terms of religion as well. Trying to create the definitions of these things for Star Trek's time is a mistake then.
I totally agree! I'm glad that someone finally hit the nail in the head. If Star Trek's future really existed, we would have a difficult time explaining or understanding exactly how it works. We would be like someone from George Washington's era trying to grasp the world of 2024.
Your stuff keeps getting better and better. Subscribed for the encyclopedic species videos, have stayed for your insights into the thematic elements of the franchise.
I cringed every time Kai Winn said
"my child"
Horrid actor, as was Sisko...well, specifically Avery Brooks. Wooden as Columbus' ship.
You were supposed to, she always used it as a way to remind people that she was better than them.
I always imagined Major Kira struggling not to call her that perjorative that is stuck in the middle of the name Scunthorpe, or whatever the Bajoran equivalent is.
I cringed every time she walked onto the set, knowing we were about to see arrogance ooze out of the screen.
If that actress isn't like that in real life, I would have to call her an excellent actress.
you should cringe hard with that character. Kai Winn is the classic hypocrite that would happily join any system including Religion and political to gather power.
I always loved the Klingon creation story where they killed their gods. "They were more trouble than they were worth."
"No Gods, No Masters!" ---Kahless, 844 AD
@bigbadcreoledaddy actually, the captain of the barge of the dead is Kortar, the first klingon created. He slew the gods and this is, presumably, his punishment. Khaless is the warrior responsible for shaping klingon society.
I know it was probably not the intention of the writers, but Picard's speech in Who Watches the Watches comes off more as him trying to shoot down the idea that he himself is a deity that should be worshiped. It would also be a massive violation of the Prime Directive, which seems to be the closest thing Picard himself has to a religious belief. I suspect Picard would have no issue with pre-warp cultures that developed their own religions without outside influence and would probably discourage Starfleet from trying to get rid of their beliefs because again it would violate the Prime Directive.
He's all about allowing a people to develop on their terms. His opposition to faith in this also came from him stating those people had thrown away faith an superstition long ago for logic and reasoning so he didn't want them to lose all they just gained and go back to ignorance because they fucked up in secretly spying on them
I really don't agree. Picard's speech makes it clear that he considers religion to be mere primitive superstition.
@@KingoftheJuice18Yup. While he doesn't want the weight of a religion based on him on his conscience, he CLEARLY also describes religion as something incompatible with the 24th Century society based on rationality and compassion.
The satisfaction of material needs, even if this is possible in the future, does not do away with the variety of psychological, spiritual, or existential needs people have. In fact, no longer needing to concentrate on "making a living" can free people up to focus more on higher pursuits and questions about why we are here.
As a side note, I'd expect that a lot of humans would actively try to adopt alien religions. I'm guessing that there are more than a few non-Emissary humans that would follow the Prophets, especially after the wormhole was discovered.
Would they? I think that those types would be REALLY rare and, frankly, would be often the weirdos, cranks and mentally unstable. Starfleet crews have been sailing the cosmic winds for centuries by the time of TNG/DS9. LOTTA close calls with "Gods" but literally every single time SCIENCE wins the day. I mean the "Resurrection" of Klingon Muhammed/Jesus was done via cloning. I don't think there's a chance (Outside of BS story druthers with any given writer) of most Federation citizens thinking there is some transcendent "gods" in the Bajorian wormhole. Most would be "Oh... Transdimensional non corporeal beings who exist out of linear time? How many of them does this make now? The Organians, the Q, whatever that thing was that knocked up Troi... We've seen this before. It's not "unknowable" or a "mystery" per se.
I didn’t turn to god for wealth, I turned to god for meaning
A major difference is that humans in Star Trek’s future treat whatever their religion is as a private matter, and are not out to impose or preach it.
Very true
My theory has always been that a more conservative group of humans inhabit the colony worlds. They left earth some time ago but kept their religious views.
Excellent video!!! Religion is one of my favorite subjects in Star Trek, I love how it was handled during the TNG/DS9/VOY era. I think Voyager has the best episodes that explore religion and supernatural belief: Emanations, Sacred Ground, Coda, Mortal Coil, and Barge of the Dead.
Thank you!
Great topic. One of my favorite episodes is TNG's "Tapestry" where Q claims to be God and Picard's response to that LOL. As a religious man myself, I always think of my faith or ideals as more of a way of life and philosophy. Many like to think that all religion is just "Blind Faith" but I treat it as a "World view" behind the purpose of existence supported by observable data. I always found it interesting how humans in Star Trek have collected so much data while exploring but have been very cautious to not make any hard conclusions. Would Humans Star to worship Qs as Gods after learning about their power? Even if a majority don't, the idea of a being with that type of power made public would sends waves.
I think this illustrates why DS9 is best Trek for me, because instead of handwaving away religion and money it incorporates them into its narrative and makes the world of Star Trek feel more authentic. There will always be people who want to believe in something beyond what is known and there will always be people who want something in return for their labor.
I am willing to believe that Starfleet officers choose to serve because they want to and not because of a paycheck, but if you go anywhere outside of the Federation you need to pay for things. The Ferengi wouldn't be able to obtain latinum of lots of other people weren't using it.
Here's the thing, on Star Trek, alien monocultures generally represent the perceived issues humans currently deal with, things that our future in-universe counterparts have gotten over.
Ferengi capitalism is not, in any way, depicted as a positive thing. They crank the exploitation up to 11 and don't allow their women to participate. It's not there in DS9 as a welcome alternative, it's a dark mirror pointed at our current selves.
Super interesting and well researched essay - many thanks!
Thank you!
I've always found it humorous that TNG generally seens to portray Picard as agnostic. Yet in S6E15 "Tapestry" when Picard apparently dies and Q offers Picard a do over, Picard gets awfully upset over the possibility that Q might be the god that created humanity.
S1E8 "Justice" makes me wonder why Picard seems to adhere so strictly to agnosticisn. In the episode the Enterprise detects a strange ship oartially phasing into our soace that we learn is worshipped by the Edo as their god. At one point the ship/entity confirms it is the Edo's god and even threatens the Enterprise after Picard brings an Edo on board. In a case of "if it walks like a duck" Picard ultimately regards the shop/entity as a god. And yet Picard continues on seemingly regarding the religious history of Earth as entirely a matter of fiction.
Surely, Picard's academy classes included an overview of TOS S2E2 "Who Mourns for Adonais?". Kirk & company meet Apollo and learn that he and his fellow Greek Olympians were real and were deities on Earth. Maybe they were powerful aliens, but it also could ve a case of "if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then its a duck."
I've also found DS9 S1E20 "In the Hands of the Prophets" to be clumsy and kind of silly thematically. DS9 clearly demonstrates that the Prophets/wormhole aliens are not simply mercurial aliens but really are the gods of Bajor. Time and again the Prophets act on behalf of Bajor in miraculous ways. The premise of the episode is contrary to the premise of the entire show
Geordi spoke about the afterlife when he phased out from the Romulans too
Existence after death, isn't inherently theist. Gods wouldn't necessarily be required for some form of energy to endure.
@@kallistiX1Isn't that just Buddhism?
@@Hypogean7 ......possibly
Thank you for this thoughtful episode. However, having Kai Winn as the thumbnail for this video was unsettling lol. That woman was a mess, to put it mildly. Excellent actress though! Terrifying and arrogant and insecure and so many other things all portrayed very well throughout DS9. Thank you again for the video!
God be with you out there everybody. ✝️ :)
I have a feeling religion in Star Trek's future may be more like how we approach "dead" religions (i.e. Ancient Greek, Egyptian, Norse mythologies) now, or like how Japan sees Christianity -- as interesting stories with cultural relevance, but not really taken as literature and culture, not literal fact. Somebody wearing religious symbols in the 24th century might be no different than how somebody might sew their country's flag on their backpack -- as a way of showing pride and interest in Earth's history and culture -- without taking it too literally, and definitely not to the dangerous extremes that some people today do. A cross necklace may be no different to them than an Ankh bought at Hot Topic is to most of us.
A lot of what was said about Deep Space Nine is why I think DS9 is good sci-fi, but bad 'Star Trek'.
To me, I think TNG was and still is the purest form of Star Trek; as it was unapologetically optimistic and enlightened. I feel that after Gene's death, Star Trek became terribly contemporary.
As for TOS; it's decent, but obviously had a lot of executive meddling; Gene's hands were tied most of the times.
It's just that by the 24th century everybody on Earth is an Episcopalian and wouldn't do anything as vulgar as talking about God or anything, except as an abstract concept divorced from the idea that an all powerful being might actually be real. This happens even when they meet beings who are pretty close to gods. Seems like good old fashioned English empiricism won out in the end. /s
Hitchens and Dawkins are looking down from somewhere unspecified, (Stovokor?), with huge smiles on their faces.
For me, as someone raised baptist, Picard never seemed to bother me. As captain of the fleet's flagship and one tasked with exploration they would have picked a captain who is very strongly aware at how less developed cultures could mis-interpret their technology as magic, and Picard (or another of his crew. See also Data when he was unable to access his memories because of the radiation of the thing he was sent to deal with) negatively altering new cultures so that they would use faith as a crutch as in their view 'god has alreayd provided and been demonstrated as real and tangible.'
Plus Picard has probably seen all of Kirk's mission briefs where you have starfleet captains tinkering with societies and ending up making third reigt germans, or romans, or whatever along with all the energy beings, the organians, etc that display godlike abilities while simply being more advanced than star fleet and the federation.
Plus i suspect Picard's then adimant refutation of faith wa also because he was already stressed and upset at the meddling that had already taken place and was trying to salvage things.
Then again Picard was never truly in danger. For he had never seen the Koala. I suspect that's what Kirk's 'Oh My' was before he died.
I personally think there are many faiths of varying varieties and intensities.
Then again my own personal belief is best sumed up by: God gave us free will. He gave us a universe we could figure out so that we would not view 'god' as an inevetable concept thus we have faith rather than fear of being struck down by a vengeful or perhaps neglectful father.
Bread and Circuses (TOS) was not about the Prime Directive being violated. It was an examination of what Trek called Hansen's Theory of Parallel Development. The society on that planet had progressed at a rate where their age of enlightenment came not during the iron age, but the technological revolution. Uhura told the clueless Kirk, Spock and McCoy, that after listening to the radio and television broadcasts, she had realized that the growing sect wasn't sun worshipers, they were SON worshipers. Even as a youngster who is Christian, I got a real charge out of that. 😃☝✝
I got two things to criticize about comparing the Federation to a socialist structure:
1.) Utopiaism is highly disfavored in socialist, Marxist, Communist, etc circles. People did utopian socialism and it failed. Literally Engles wrote about this.
2.) Outside of Leninist models, a centralized state like the Federation is not conducive to creating a stateless society. That's what communism is... moneyless and *stateless.* Even Lenin described the Soviet Union as a transitional structure to socialism and communism.
Whenever I think of the Federation of Planets, in the shows and movies as well as thoughts and intentions of the creators, I get liberal vibes hardcore. The most successful social democracy in their history and even post-capitalist... but it's still lib. Socialism is a bit more than progressive coolness and economic transition to a post-scarcity model. There's great deal to talk about hierarchy, watch is core point to socialism from the beginning. Federalism by its very nature is about enforced hierarchies via centralizing power. And, like how many Star Trek episodes point out, you see how the Federation fails this check because it's still too much like the United States and other irl countries.
But this video's about religion...
Well, people's relationship to religion was pretty different a couple hundred years ago. Don't be surprised that changes again some hundreds of years from too.
Roddenberry was pretty clear that humanity "getting over religion" was one of the necessities to reaching his idea of a human Utopia where we all actually work together.
I agree with him
@@_Omega_Weapon Me too.
Sounds like communist’s persecution of religion, by basically killing whoever practices it and completely ban it.
One thing can’t be denied, the greatest scientist in history was a Christian, and the first human in space was also Christian.
Believing that religion stops human progress is pure nonsense and sounds pretty much fascist.
Religions can wax and wane but there have been cultural holdovers. We see this with incorporation and reference to past religions and recontextualization of practices and paraphernalia.
A few years ago, Gene Roddenberry's son Rod Roddenberry created a Star Trek car emblem that was styled after the Christian symbol Ichthys, AKA the Jesus fish. It had a Crome fish body with the word "TREK" inside and had warp nacelles for tail fins. He created it as a way to tell people that we can continue to discuss our origins but, as a species, we should focus on the future and where we're going. I used to have that emblem on my old car.
I like the alternate Jesus fish symbols. I've seen a fish with legs with DARWIN written in it, and one shaped like a rocket for SCIENCE. A Nacelle TREK fish is definitely something I'd put on my car if I drove!
Just because it's a fish shape doesn't mean Jesus or Christian.
Now what is interesting is how Christianity is so commonly tied with individualism and capitalism in American mindset. Eastern Orthodoxy makes a big emphasis on cooperation and the unity over individuality. This is why communism had a great leverage in Russia, for instance.
I feel like in Star Trek for most humans religion is more of a cultural history thing… the same way we treat “dead” religions and like how people still say “oh my god” despite not being religious themselves.
Good man Tyler another fantastic informative piece respect 🙏 🫡 😊
Do not forget the animated series had a couple episodes about religion.
To me it seams that religion is fought against with the saying "Man is the measure of all things". or "Man is a species greater than there is a "Higher power" than what that we humans can understand. My position is that man is Not the measure of all things. To say we are is to put humanity at an arrogantly high level of species in the universe; that we have the power to shape the universe to our liking. We are what we are and we are Not god{s).
What does God need with a Starship was an awesome line. Always wonder who wrote that line.
@TheMysteryDriver
I read somewhere (pre-internet) that the phrase came from the writer and director of Star Trek V, Bill Shatner himself.
Shatner said he was always tickled pink by the phrase Deus Ex Machina (tr. God From The Machine), thinking what would God need with a machine?!
@@phelimridley6727 Lol, it's a phrase from Anceint Greek theater, where actors playing the olympian gods would be lowered onto the stage via a crane--a machine.
@@DrFranklynAnderson correct. Bill Shatner knew where the phrase came from, but found himself asking the question rhetorically "what would God need with a machine?!"
why do you oppose humanism against religion can you bot be a Christian, Muslim , Hindu or Budist hum and a humanist too.
Historically, all the above, add Jewish and Confucian.
religion often seems to address the anxieties of society. Fear of the forces of nature. Protestant Ethic. Attempts to answer why people do evil. Religion marries philosophy and ritual in a way that attempts to resolve that.
Despite many references to Earth being like living in paradise, people still strive but are not left to destitution. Religion, therefore, probably still does have some role, even if it's no longer called religion. Improving ourselves and our societies is a missionary spirit, after all
There arw questions about the universe that the damn Q or The Traveler cant understand.
And look at all the good humanism and secularism has done for China lol dear God 😂
I actually think the Gene Roddenberry could be better described as a pantheist. There are references to Spinoza in the second pilot of TOS, and the religion of the Vulcans seems to be in some ways inspired by Spinozas philosophy.
Well, I think the question NEEDS to directed at all the races in the Star Trek; I'm terribly curious why every humanoid/etc. besides earthlings have exclusively one monolithic religion for an entire species population! That's unreal lol the most diverse it seems to get is The Prophets and The Pagh Wraiths
And to the point of this video, the Truth will out. And we belive the Truth will never dissappear, like it hasn't for thousands of years.
10:03
What on earth are you talking about, Catholism might tie your salvation to tithe but protestants don't. "Salvation is a gift you cannot earn it" is more or less their take. As someone who has identified as Baptist I assure you tithe has nothing to do with heaven, hell, or any of that. You are ordered to pay 10% to your church but that church is also expected to do good things for the community it's a proto-welfare. Unfortunately the simple fact of the matter is most churches aren't as good about that as they are at saving up for a bigger building. Humans suck lol.
But yeah no tithe being linked to salvation is a bizarre concept to me personally and I grew up in church.
Catholics don't either
as for the future, things change. Christianity was a very top down religion from the Pope till the Reformation broke it up. Judaism was centered on the temple till after the destruction of the temple in AD 70. even as 'formal' Christianity is on the decline in the developed countries it's exploding in growth in places like Africa. so projecting just a few decades out can iffy at best.
Federation is not socialist like you said. Pikards brother on Earth has his own vineyard. Siscos father on earth has his own restaurant. Thats private property free market system. And Starfleet is military organisation. Priority is duty.
That's not what socialism means lol
Your mentioning of how scientists can be religious puts me in mind of a true story that really illustrates that point:
In 1892 a young businessman was sharing a train car with an older gentleman. The young man was reading new scientific journals being published by the local university, and noticed the old man was reading the Bible. The young man chastised the old man for reading a bunch of "fables and fairy tales" and that science had shown such things to be useless.
The old man asked if science had really done that.
The young man assured him it had, but since he was getting off at the next stop perhaps the old man could give him his address so he could mail him the appropriate scientific documents?
The old man handed him his business card which read: Professor Doctor Louis Pasteur, Director General of the Institute of Scientific Investigations, National University of France.
Source?
@@illuzion30 History.
Who just hands over their address to strangers? And who trash talks strangers on the train? Sounds made up to me.
It’s never late to remember that the greatest scientists in history were religious.
Hey Tyler! Just want to say Thank You - for all the work, research and effort you put into making these interesting essays. I'm pushing 50 myself and new CBS-Trek just isn't for me, but since Star Trek means A LOT to me, I feel more at home in the novelverse these dark days. On the same level, I enjoy books going deeper into the matters that are just scratched on the shows, essay-collections on ST and philosophy etc, or Manu Saadias 'Trekonomics'. Your videos are great companion pieces to the written texts and I'm looking forward to every one of them! Cheers Mate! :-)
Who watches the watchers is one of my favorite Picard speeches.
I'm really looking forward to 2240.
Haha
Q is like Satan haha. Not related I know haha
12:54 I We'll go ahead and point out. The leader of the USA's atheist organization sent scathing letters and complaints to the President and Congress after those astronauts read that passage and because those astronauts read that passage.
Yep, I remember reading about that
I have noticed online a rise in paganism.
This leads me to believe that religion is never going to go away as long as people die.
Life is very short compared to the galaxy.
At some point the need to feel like there is more to come kicks in.
Cause paganism is fun!
Tendi has become like the Superman statue in every Seinfeld episode! 😂
😂
Any projections of the future population levels of the earth in Star Trek are always going to be almost impossible to accurately calculate. This is because mankind in Star Trek's future is a star spanning civilization spread out on hundreds of planets. Surely such a star spanning, and constantly expanding, civilization would at least to some extent significantly empty out Earth's population.
According to Will Riker there's 50 million people on the moon by the 2370s
Most of the estimates for Earth's "carrying capacity" are about 8 billion, a.k.a. our planet's current population, so I definitely think that with more efficient resource distribution the 9 billion figure that's been floated in beta canon doesn't seem too out of the ordinary.
@@OrangeRiverIsaac Arthur suggests a trillion or so before heat becomes a problem. 😄 Maybe not with current food technology, but certainly tens of billions.
If the estimation is that Islam will overtake Christianity, why are elements of Islam not discussed in the video, but Christianity (specifically tithing) are..? 🤔
I mean, the tithing thing was just an example of the economics of religion
@@OrangeRiver I understand where you are coming from... Excellent video (I liked and am subscribed).
Tithing (Zakat) is a thing in Islam, as well as the a version of evengelicalism. It's a frought topic, though, and because of that, it doesn't often get discussed by non-Muslims.
The Zakat (Islam's version of tithing and one of the four pillars of the faith) would have been an interesting topic. Every Muslim -- male or female -- must pay the Zakat at different rates on crops, harvests, herds, gold and silver, cash, profit from business and on investments. With different rates on different possessions, Zakat can become as complex as the United States Tax Code.
Comparing the Zakat to the Ferengi's complex association of money & religion would have been intriguing. I do not have the skills or knowledge to make such a video, and am not criticizing your either - please understand this, as I have great respect for you and your work.
At the end of the day, Star Trek is meant to depict a future where all are accepted and welcomed. Realistically, it's unlikely that religion in the 23rd century and beyond would be recognizable to us in the modern day, but seeing as religion plays a major role in a majority of people's lives today, Trek being openly Atheistic/Anti-Theist would alienate a lot of people.
As an Atheist myself, as long Star Trek continues to embrace Secular Humanism as it's guiding philosophy, I see no issue with religion continuing to exist among humans or within the Federation.
excellent video, sir 🖖🏼
Thank you!
Really good episode Taylor! I'd like to think that in the future religion will be practised as a philosophy and they get rid of the hate and cultist interpretation. I'm not religious, but I consider myself a spiritual person. We have to have room for the unknown. 🖖😁🤘🇨🇦🕊️
An important thing to add is that humanism started as a philosophy within Christianity; that humans had inherent worth that was imparted to them by God, and that was part of why they needed to aspire to become better. Then, later down the road, secular humanism arrived from people who liked the philosophical concepts of humanity improving itself but didn't believe in God (or, did but only in a deistic sense).
I think that it's likely that, under this communistic/anarchistic future, Christianity and other religions may return to this form of philosophy. The really big question is the outcome of the current fight between modernism (Christianity as moral truth but not literal) and Fundamentalism and Neo-Orthodoxy (Both believe in the Bible as being literally true, but differ in other aspects). Maybe the Eugenics Wars and WWIII revive the modernists in the Trek Future, or maybe they all learn to get along after the horrors of that nuclear conflict. It's all speculative at this point
Edit: this comment was written from the perspective of a Protestant. I am not qualified to talk about Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox denominations, though from my own limited understanding they have each their own form of the modernism vs 'orthodoxy' dispute going on.
There's a great part in DS9 where Jake calles his father's role as "the emissary" as basically dumb or silly. And Sisko explains that it's not silly to the Bajorans. That they may see wormhole aliens, but the Bajorans see prophets, and there's no reason to dismiss that belief simply because they dont' share it. To me that nails what I think Ira Steven Behr's philsophy is for that show. A kind of "everyone is entitled to their own beleifs and there are many truths" philosophy of religion.
It's not silly to the Bajorans, but then the Bajorans frequently shoot themselves in the foot for the silliest reasons.
Excellent scene. And I'm atheist
What if religion changed based on discovery of aliens
Like how?
i wonder how the religious history of the mirror universe different from our time line.
They probaby worship Jupiter or possibly Wotan.
Wasn't there talk of "the gods" in the mirrorverse?
Their timeline seems to be one where right wingers became the dominant force on Earth
The biggest underlying difference between ST and SW is that Gene Roddenberry was hostile to religion, and George Lucas was influenced by Eastern religions .
I think most simply, if you have an egalitarian governmen based on reason, science, diversiy, and cooperation, ....you take the incentive away from the aggressive religions to try to amass power and social control, (Just like it'd remove the incentives for something 'socialist' to devolve into a personality cult that only considers said religions a rival, or perhaps usefully-enabling political party, basically.)
Basically it's a lot easier to have actual religious freedom if your own beliefs aren't actually forced to become your neighbor's business, especially if said authoritaria-based religion doesn't want said neighbors to exist. If it's not a big deal it's not a big deal, that way, whoever you are. So I figure Star Trek's world just takes the pressure and, well, hazard off by denying that kind of power to people who'd use religion to gain it.
It's easy for a former christian athiest to say that nothing would be lost if religion disappeared from the world. The cultures of chrsitian majority Christian countries are very secular and so while the culture isn't totally divorced from religion, you really wouldn't be losing much. Its not quite the same thing for some other groups like Jews where relgion-culture-peoplehood are all very closely tied together, to the point that a lot of athiest Jewish people will still go to synagogue for high holidays and observe some of the customs even if they don't believe in God. And given what the Jewish people have gone through, its pretty disturbing we've never seen a Jewish character, athiest or otherwise.
Space socialism hopefully means no space televangelists... or subspace-evangelists?
I remember believing that once we get to space, religion would just disappear because we don't need it anymore, when I was like 15. I don't view it as a bad thing on an individual level anymore, but my view of institutional religion has only gotten more jaded. Maybe it's possible that faith in the Trek future Earth exists on a personal and community level, but institutions like the Vatican either don't exist or don't serve the same function as they do today.
We hope the Vatican won’t exist, but it could turn out that in the future if we make it to become a multi system civilization, that ppl become more religious than ever, due to the new things we will have no explanation for… so I’d rather we don’t have a Vatican, and not a very powerful space based, photon torpedo wielding faction of zealots
Do you think Yuri Gagarin decided to be an atheist after he became the first human in space?
@@evangelicae_rationis I have no idea off the top of my head but I'm not going to assume that he did. Not claiming "space = atheism," like I might have when I was, again, 15, but I think a global society would probably have less need for it as an organization, and instead we'd adopt it as a personal, spiritual thing.
Jesus will return long b4 science FICTION will come true.
Extrapolating a percentage with a straight line is one of the best examples of how people latee declare statistics "a big lie"...
Seriously, You should have used an exponent at least.
🖖
Note that TOS featured the "soul" long before ST III's katra. Example: the second season's Return to Tomorrow.
Is Humanity Really "Godless" in Star Trek? Yes.
The DS9 writers didn't seem to understand Roddenberry-style atheism.
I think there is a sect of Atheism w 14:17 hich Picard Follows, of the Evolved Human. The idea that Humans outgrew their bad aspects, and are on the path to be like gods. It may be the predominant philosophy, but it too falls under many of the same traps of religion, which the aspect of the Dominion War shown, where humans is pushed become as barbaric as ever.
I present to you, this sacrificial commitment to the algorithm god, who needs all of the starships.
Bread and circuses ????
Ds9 the only show that Does deep dive into religion. And caste system
God needed starships for Wolf 359
Thanks for making this video. Exploring religion in Star Trek has always been interesting and I really enjoyed the way DS9 handled it.
Thank you!
One thing Brannon Braga always talks about is how interesting he finds it that Star Trek kept coming back to Godlike beings, and that The Next Generation in particular basically has a recurring character who is, in essence, actually God (the the sense of how God is portrayed in the old testament), and who guides the crew of the Enterprise forward in their growth. And, Braga says, this character was created by Gene Roddenberry, an atheist. Roddenberry made God a character in Star Trek, named him Q, and let him breathe without tearing him down. Think about that.
Q has godlike power, like a few characters in star trek and fiction, but no he isn't God. And idk about tearing him down, he has generally acted as a bad guy or at least an asshole and in some situations he's pathetic.
@@jesusjuice7401 God acts that way a lot in the Old Testament too, objectively speaking. He shepards His creations through important life lessons by forcing them into defeat. While He is omnipotent and all-powerful, He is not always a merciful God - but ultimately, everything He does is intended to push humanity in the direction we need to go. Picard laughs at the idea that Q is God in "Tapestry", but 99% of what Q does in the series is actually consistent with God as he's presented in the Bible. The Q incident with the Borg in "Q Who" might as well be God giving His creations a little lesson. It's on point.
I don't always agree with Brannon Braga, but this is a very astute observation of his.
That is why the UFP was so successful.
There are 2 Chapels on the OG series....
I still want him to do a video explaining why aren't there normal looking people in star trek
Well obesity is a choice by the 23th century so that's why you don't see any normal looking people. Now as far as normal looking fit people go Bones with his cranky demeanor seems pretty normal by 21st century standards.
"It's not the Sun in the sky - it's the Son of God!" - Uhura.
Plenty of the Gods of Earth had sons in mythology.. thats probably true of alien myths as well
@@dougs7367 she said it in the Magna Roma episode when they realised the persecuted religion was Christianity. Uhura seemed to be Christian, was the impression.
Fatherless
❤
🥳❤️👍🏿
If no money, would you explain Latinum/Gold Press Latinum? TNG, DS9
Earth doesn't use money, other planets do...not that complicated...
@OrangeRiver i kind of knew that, i was referring to humans using currency, which they did. Reference TNG, Riker contacts Quark. Riker gives Quark the latinum Quark owes him, for information, I think, or help, I forget which. So maybe humans use it only when dealing with off worlders.
They definitely use money when dealing with other worlds, yep 👍
Poh
If they were actually doing a projection into the future, half the crew would be Mormon and most of the Federation human population would be Amish. 😂
Or Muslims and atheist, agnostics and secular humans according to current data.
@@rickjohnston2667 agnostics and atheists have terrible fertility rates. Amish numbers have been increasing very rapidly for hundreds of years. Mormons doing very well too, and not expected to decline unlike most Muslim groups.
There is also a ton of Hermetic symbolism in Star Trek. This includes the idea of the Travelers, that Wesley could transcend his physical form through his own journey of consciousness (perhaps over many lifetimes, though that isn't explored) and that humans may one day be as advanced as Qs. There is a great video on the topic by The Modern Alchemist.
Another thing not mentioned, T'Kuvma is a religious extremist. It's a very interesting portrayal and shows how even a warp capable society could be taken in by extremism.
I always thought it was interesting how Picard gave that speech in "Who watches the Watchers," but in "Disaster" when he is trapped in a turbolift with three crying and sacred children, he looks up as if asking for some divine intervention.
Excellent thoughts about Picard's personal views vs the "common man" of the Federation
Post scarcity is not socialist and would never be brought about by socialism
Well post scarcity certainly wouldn't be brought about by capitalism lol
@@OrangeRiver I believe you're correct on that front, although accelerationist believe some quasi form of capitalism would lead to it as it currently is
The West is the only place on earth or in history which has people in poverty who are fat
I'd say that's probably approaching post scarcity
Yes!!! FRIDAY ORANGE RIVER STAR TREK for lunch!!!
I remember Crazy Matt Decker saying, "They say there is no Devil.." I always went back to that line when I thought about human religion in star trek. But I guess that's just the old ways.
One thing I will point out that may be overlooked here on the original series the episode The Mark of Gideon where they had a planet that had massive overpopulation because of minimal dying from old age and no contraception, was at least in part a response to humanae vitae which was promulgated by Pope Paul VI earlier that year.
great video!
Thank you!
Thanks
Thank you!
Mind, criticizing religion isn't a disbelief in God, in some form or another. Many of Roddenberry's episodes spoke on the existence of God, with even crew members of TOS being open to being shown God exists. Religion, on the other hand, is often corrupt, led by abusive 'shepherds'. I don't blame him for being critical of religion, but not so critical at the idea of intelligent creation. I think i managed to type this mostly typo-free despite a chihuahua puppy trying to prove there is no god by trying to walk on my keyboard...
EDIT: China only accepts state-sanctioned forms of those religions, you know, it's not a great country--especially as they paint their food and their meat to look fresh, and torture anyone who doesn't adhere to the strict guidelines of state sanctioned religion--to reference about humanism and secularism. There's nothing about it that works.
Lol, I don't know where I ever suggested that China's way of doing things is preferable
I would think that religions would evolve to become a cultural thing if nothing else. Litteral god-like beings are relatively common in the universe.
9:50 is Chattanooga, TN, if anyone cares.
great video!
Thanks!
The religious aspect of DS9 always annoyed me. Loved ot when the dominion appeared and shifted the focus.
The religious aspect never ended. The Founders got worshiped as gods.
I always think the questions of religion and economics in Star Trek are where fans (and the writers, when they try to tackle the issues in some way) are off-base. Because it's the wrong question in each instance.
It's always "is Star Trek socialist?" for instance. And then follows all the arguments. Same with the place of religion in Star Trek.
But on both points, this is where we, as denizens of OUR time, simply cannot wrap our heads around what it would be like for these people living 300 to 400 years from now.
Socialism is a modern term that has a (somewhat loose) definition and certain connotations (even if these are often misinterpretations, or simply wrong). We assume, at any rate, that our modern idea of "socialism" is somehow universal, across culture and time. But why should it be? It's pretty clear that Star Trek isn't "capitalist," but is it "socialist" as we usually think of the term today?
See, I think that a world that has replicator technology (and yes, I know there's "canon" that implies that TOS didn't have "replicators" per se, but I've always called BS on that. Clearly "replication" of needed materials in SOME form is a technology that is basic to Star Trek going back to TOS) is one that totally changes the game "economically" for the human race. It IS post-scarcity, even if raw material is still needed in some form in order to replicate a needed object or material. Sure, if we try to get into the minutiae of it too much, we can do all kinds of angels-on-the-heads-of-pins arguing back and forth... but basically, we never stop long enough to consider the impact it would have on our species to have everything we could possibly need or want at the push of a button. Food, shelter, clothing, etc. etc. Is that "socialist," or is it something else that we're not really capable of grasping? Because, let's say you grab someone from the Stone Age and try to explain our modern banking system to them, and the way our economy works. (Never mind trying to explain our technology). We think that because our modern minds have dreamed up this Star Trek future that we can map out every little corner of how it works... it's just what we can imagine and dream up, right? But if we can never really explain how a transporter ACTUALLY works, for example... then why do we assume we can explain the economy of the 23rd century?
Star Trek's earth society is an enigma to us because it is humanity after passing a boundary which we don't even understand. They've left us in the dust. We're the past to them. Technologically, economically, philosphically, governmentally, and in terms of religion as well.
Trying to create the definitions of these things for Star Trek's time is a mistake then.
I totally agree! I'm glad that someone finally hit the nail in the head. If Star Trek's future really existed, we would have a difficult time explaining or understanding exactly how it works. We would be like someone from George Washington's era trying to grasp the world of 2024.
@@rickjohnston2667 Exactly. Thank you.
Your stuff keeps getting better and better. Subscribed for the encyclopedic species videos, have stayed for your insights into the thematic elements of the franchise.
Thank you!