That's a stupid thing to say, Goku landed on earth and was raised on it his entire life,Goku is an alien trying to raise a half alien while having a human mind Vegeta had an alien mind since he wasn't raised on earth.
@@ZoroRoronaoThat's something you would say about Superman. Goku simply doesn't have a 100% human mindset, because he isn't human. Because he is of an endangered, effectively extinct, warrior race he has a natural drive for battle that surpasses everyone he knows aside from Vegeta. With Goku, it's not nature OR nurture, it's both. I have to say, the only one who said something stupid, was you.
My only thing is that I feel like the Cell arc overplayed Gohan “Not liking to fight” Because when he was on Namek, he was throwing hands with no problem because he knew they were threats. I don’t get why his mindset changed when he fought Cell. If he was strong enough, he would’ve killed Frieza before Goku even got a chance to fight
To be fair when they got to Namek. They weren’t expecting busting threats to be there it was kind of a do or die situation… in this case, it was more like Gohan really didn’t want to be the one to kill cell. Especially after thinking, Goku was going to win when he went first.
@@Adi-bo5do that’s not true because in the very same Manga he tells cell I like fighting if it’s fun or if I have to protect people, but he doesn’t want to be a fighter like his dad who is killing people.
Just my take before watching; I think dub Goku has people thinking he's more of a hero than he actually is. Goku has shown plenty times he cares more about the fight than the planet. It tends to lead to him saving the world plenty times but it's more him just being a good person rather than a hero.
His dub speech against Frieza is a big component of it. One of the few things good about DBS is how they got the dub speech right towards Jiren after Jiren tries to wipe out Goku's friends. Goku has always been the, "I don't claim to be a hero, but if you hurt my friends its up for you."
People who always say "they could have done X to end the whole saga" not understanding the theme of the series, is the character testing themselves through willful adversity. Vegeta let Cell become perfect for a challenge and underestimated him. Or how Goku and Vegeta wanted to fight Kid Buu solo and not fuse, because Kid Buu was no longer fused and his original form. A lot of people who complain about the choices the characters make just don't get what their in-universe mentalities are. Its a fighting anime first. Not a Superhero one. Goku giving Cell the bean had context, because he was being charitable to Cell when Cell agreed to holding back if he got the challenge he wanted. Its why he hated 10 days for them to get prepared. But people just hate on scenes that are already explained in context, because they want it to fit the meme. Goku has to be a bad dad in the Cell arc for it to work. Even if the actual context of Goku's character is the opposite. Goku was very proud and confident in Gohan, as a Saiyan father. Not as a human dad.
@@ImAviex I see Goku as more of a neutral good character rather than a superhero. He is only good because he is a nice guy and not evil. Evil is bad for his friends, but he doesn't live by a code to do good, its just not in his nature to do bad things. Goku will fight to beat a bad person and push himself, circumstantially. Its clear when he spared Vegeta. He said to Krillin he knows Vegeta is bad and dangerous but promises the next time he will beat him if he tries again and admired him. In Dragonball, might makes right, moreso than anything else. So Goku giving Cell the senzu is no different. Goku tends to trust people he likes to fight, which his naivety. Its why he didnt hold a grudge against Buu or Freeza.
*It makes sense that Goku should be able to master Ssj3 like he did SSj. I still think he would discover it bc Gotenks simply felt it and achieved it while alive. Goku would probably not unlock it as fast as he did in cannon but still he would unlock it*
Brother there’s still people who believe Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan. Does it really surprise you they don’t know SSJ Gohan is stronger than SSJ Goku
Thank you!! Finally someone said it. Kid Buu is only the most dangerous because he’s the most unpredictable and destructive, not most powerful. Buuhan is the strongest but not the most dangerous because he’s not throwing his power around uncontrollably.
@@benevolence2926kid buu isn’t stronger then super buu. Goku was scared shitless of super buu while he was 100% confident he could have taken out kid buu if he started out the fight at full power.
@@konnorpalmer8676 Goku wasnt confident against kid buu initially either. before the fight started his quote '' I dont think we stand a chance but lets try anyways'' paraphrased a little cant be assed to search for the manga now. Moreover, if super buu was stronger they wouldnt have risked the spirit bomb tactic and went with gohan finishing him instead and before you say they didnt want to risk him being absorbed again, just remember they allowed fat buu to fight kid buu which could have ended with another super buu. Also,the whole Kakarot your #1 speech by vegeta wouldnt have much weight if gohan was strong enough to finish kidbuu
Either this, or we get the worst possible outcome. Let me expand, Cell gets desperate before Gohan can get ssj2, Goku dies anyway. Cell returns in his super perfect form. Gohan probably wouldn't have ssj2 still. He'd be sad, not angry. Could still get him ssj2, but he's going to be weaker in ssj2 here because he's not getting rage amped after the increase from ssj2 itself. So Cell may win the Kamehameha clash, destroy the solar system. Killing everybody, possibly awakening Buu. A d regardless of whether Buu or Cell wins here, the outcome is the same. The universe is slowly destroyed and erased by Zeno for having a low mortal level. So the bad ending.
He really don’t know what he missing out on there. The manga changes a lot of what we saw in the anime. I have never seen a show not match the manga like this before. The TOP is different and shows just how strong the side characters are, especially Roshi and even more so Gohan with his fight against Kefla
@@iankendall8467 The reason why they're so different is that, in most cases, the manga author writes the manga and then the anime adapts that manga For DBS, Toriyama essentially just didn't want to come back and write full time, so instead he made some vague notes on what happens, designs most of the characters, and then just hands those notes and designs to Toei and Toyotaro (the writer for DBS manga) and they both interpreted those notes differently The notes have never been public, but he probably just wrote "Kale and Caulifla fuse, but their fusion is not strong enough and they are defeated," that leaves it too open as to how she is defeated, which is why it's Gohan in the manga and Goku in the anime.
I rate carthu a lot, the cell saga is my favourite but I can’t say that’s always been the case when I was much younger. But understanding the nuance of the senzu bean scene and all the reasons why goku would give it in the first place while throwing gohan into the deep end made me love the cell saga even more. It’s genuinely a great character moment for goku and gohan and ppl who genuinely label goku as a bad dad cos of this scene clearly haven’t read the series
Only thing thats different is what happens in dragon ball super superhero. Im not sure if gohan could get his power unlocked in this scenario, so they might be chopped
Bruh nobody talks about how gangster of a saiyan father Goku is for this moment. He’s basically telling Cell:”Listen, I love fighting, but I can’t beat you. But you know who can? MY BOY GOHAN! And I’m SO confident he’s gonna WHOOP YOUR ASS, I’ll let you fight at full strength so you know without a DOUBT you couldn’t win!” Like bruh, that’s a W proud father moment to me idk. You see how often Goku and Vegeta nowadays are always fighting to see who gets to fight the villain. And Goku in this moment GIVES UP HIS FIGHT, for his SONS glory. Granted he was going to lose he felt but still, contrast that to Vegeta who would rather have died than let his son fight Cell
W video from you and Carthu's Dojo! You're my favorite DB RUclipsr's! Here's my top three: 1.TSO_Sage 2.Seereax 3.Carthu's Dojo I know it's completely out of left field to give my top three, but I just wanted to share! 😁
Rhymestyle and Doto could even share the spot for 2 if you're going over Carthu. Otherwise it should be Carthu, Sage, and Doto/Rhyme because I've never seen SeeReax just sit down and talk about the mangi. He just mentions it in a gameplay video. Which is cool and he's based, but Doto is doing a watchalong of Z and Rhyme will talk about the manga.
Giving Goku the benefit of the doubt. He always saw Gohan on the front lines and even witnessed first hand Gohan volunteering to go to Namek and enter the time chamber. Can’t really blame him for not knowing that Gohan sees fighting as a means to an end. Piccolo only realized that during the 6 months of training and during the fight with Nappa. Which gets thrown out the window regardless given Super hero
Im glad I like to read because i definitely felt for the dbz can't read thing. Reading manga has definitely helped me over the years with comes to anime in general. Now, I have a different perspective of both anime and manga.
The thing about Goku being careless and getting hit with a death beam in this version- This reminds me something similar that happened to him by Sorbet. So we know it's technically possible. Also if Kakarrot and Bejita trained together for 7 years, both of them might have unlocked SSJ3 together especially if they are using the room of spirit and time. Because remember, basically the Super Saiyan stages are by grades and not numbers. So SSJ3 is actually grade 6 that Kakarrot unlocked earlier by training non stop in the after life. Also Kakarrot will always be more powerful in what he can give than the prince for a simple reason- Mentors. Karin, Kami at the time Dende now and K. Kai would have never trained the prince. Teachers that our hero learned a lot from.
They couldn't, it's the same with the Frieza fight when everyone asks the same question. Perfect Cell is strong enough and durable enough to completely ignore the presence of Tien, Piccolo, Yamcha, and Krillin. Trunks and Vegeta got embarrassed by a suppressed Cell, and Goku in the original was exhausted and out of ki.
I have a friend who gives me a hard time every time Goku’s fatherhood is put into question, and it’s always the senzu bean. Doesn’t matter what evidence is presented, the senzu bean is the one factor that ruins Goku for him
Even if Metamoran fusion wouldn’t have been in Goku’s mind in the Broly movie, would they use potara? They’d have to go out of their way to find the supreme kai and shit and idk feels like the movie would’ve went on a Indiana Jones route to find a way to beat Broly.
You should defo read the Super Manga. It’s like a retelling in a own way of Super with a lot of interesting differences. Plus it tends to give Super Saiyan God a lot more respect than the anime
uhh there's a big thing that Carthu glazed over - Gohan won't get his Mystic/Ultimate form because they never meet the Kais. This completely derails his growth path, whatever that path may be in this timeline. Stronger Goku, weaker Gohan (BUT stronger Gohan at the point of vs Dabura obviously)
I think Goku might have actually been cooking with that senzu bean play of his. Cell's a unique fighter in that he's comprised of the DNA of multiple races in the DBverse. The two most notable are his Saiyan and Namekian DNA he inherited. Cell was able to undergo a zenkai boost after regenerating his body after self-destructing in his Semi-Perfect form. This boost enabled him to leapfrog over his Semi-Perfect form even without re-absorbing Android 18, then catapulted him all the way to the equivalent of Super Saiyan 2. If Cell had fought Gohan while fatigued, he would have taken more damage, and Gohan would have still held back unless he experienced the same events that resulted in him awakening his rage-boosted Super Saiyan 2. This could have given Cell more opportunities to obtain a zenkai boost without having to self-destruct after Gohan literally beats Android 18 out of him. We've already seen that Cell's Namekian regeneration doesn't usually kick in until he's sustained serious damage, often involving the partial loss of his body.
I don’t necessarily think Sage is wrong in thinking everyone would have been stronger if Goku stayed alive but I do think his reasoning is wrong Zenkai boosts basically stopped happening after the Frieza saga, they just straight up aren’t mentioned after that outside of Cell getting one and I think the reason for that has to do with them becoming super Saiyans This isn’t confirmed in any way to my knowledge but I think becoming a super Saiyan is likely the cut off point for zenkai boosts, as the Saiyans stopped getting them after they became ssj and Perfect Cell become Super Perfect was basically his ssj equivalent I think Goku staying alive leads to everyone except Goku himself becoming stronger than they were in the Buu saga, because Vegeta would stay motivated and he’d likely keep Gohan in shape bare minimum As far as ssj3 goes I think he mainly was able to unlock it due to otherworld training so he’d likely just master ssj2 instead (which would probably be better anyways albeit slightly less powerful)
20:38 bro read the manga. This ain’t your first time asking me, too 😭. If u do read it u have to start from the first chapter cuz the arcs happen differently and the powerscaling is different
for your take on goku still reaching SSJ3 i agree, this version of goku still has to be the protector of earth, since Gohan doesnt like fighting, in the original when goku dies he asks to stay dead so threats stop coming to earth, and the moment he comes back for a tournament more baddies show up. so yeah i think Goku keeps training for 7 years and unlock SSJ3 BUT in the original version vegita stops training because of Kakarot's death, with him still alive vegita for sure has SSJ2 without babidi's help we may even get a SSJ3 Goku vs Vegita SSJ3 think about it their both alive for 7 years edit: i didnt finish the video lol
It's easily Frieza he literally has a chunk of the universe under his control alot of ppl will say kid buu but alot of his deeds were undone and he was basically turned into a good guy Frieza is still out there conquering the universe and is currently the strongest mortal
First off yeah we can shift the bad dad arguement to goku not understanding his son which does look bad for him, but not every father in the world can fully understand their son. There are parts of your child that their friends know, your spouse knows, their lovers know that you will never know about. Plus goku has only seen gohan eager to fight which made him assume that he was just like him and his friends not realizing that gohan only sees it as a necessity for survival or a fun hobby that he uses to bond with his dad. so i don't fault goku for not realizing that gohan wasn't like that. Second of all yeah goku most likely can still have ssj3 without being dead. If gotenks can do it who accomplished it with worst stamina and less time since they're a fusion than goku and can stay in the form for a long period of time without any stamina or energy drain, goku can do it it'll just take a long while before he does. Also you should read the manga it has some cool shit, but also dumb shit too.
So, very very very tiny spoiler for the ToP manga is that, part of why #17 is as strong as he is is that he's been battling Cell Jr.'s, since they have Cell's regeneration and they're mostly only cut in half/decapitated/whatever, which, since Cell doesn't spawn Cell Jr.'s in this verse, would mean that ToP #17 is weaker and Universe 7 could lose the tournament, meaning that Jiren gets his wish, uses it selfishly, and leads to the Zeno's erasing Universe 11 immediately afterwards, which would just mean nothing post ToP happens
yeah i also agree that goku would achieve ssj3 on earth but he would be FAAAR stronger than on og timeline and also i think he would achieve it earlier because goku would grow faster because he is training together with gohan and goten and gohan my god he would be a monster by the time of beerus and probably also achieve ssj3
Lmfaoo this just makes me think kakarot a goofy even further. Goku really should've just ate that perk instead of giving it to cell then. 😭 This version of Gohan especially moving into the buu saga is much better by a landslide.
You cant tell me you are surprised that people may think Goku was stronger than Gohan when there are still a ton of people that think Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan.
Carthu is generally accurate about many aspects of Dragon Ball, but I genuinely dislike his "what ifs." They follow the timeline but make the characters worse. I understand that's sort of the point, but you can still keep the characters true to themselves without keeping the narrative the same.
You should read the manga just so you know about the differences from the DBS anime and the events after the DBS Broly film. Just to. Just to be up to date on things, and not rely on cliff notes from hearsay or comments from fans.
I feel like everything bar the ToP and Superhero would happen the same Gohan without Ultimate isn’t nearly as strong so he’s so much weaker in the ToP and the movie (if he even makes it there) he’d get bullied imo
i dont get where you all get that goku was looking for a sucessor at this point in the story. Just look at Uub, a sucessor was just an excuse, all he wanted was a fightin buddy. Also goku wouldnt use ss3 if he hadnt died because he is smart enough to know that form is terrible. Mind you hes the guy that rejects "grade 2" because it keeps the same speed and increases stamina drain.
Uub was after he accepted that he needed to stay around. Him looking for a successor was specifically end of cell saga thinking it would be Gohan, and then Buu saga when he realized Gohan wasn’t currently up to the task. Buu saga ended with Goku accepting it would have to be a group effort and that he needed to remain on earth to remain part of that group because problems will happen even without him
I disagree with Carthu, I think Cell would've still given the opportunity to blow up, especially since Cell was even much more of a play thing for Gohan powerwise and his overconfidence wouldve been even greater Cell wouldve tried to explode and theres nothing that earth could do to save earth
Ok I finally got to the point in the vid at 9:57. What is the indication for gohan at ss1 is stronger then ss1 goku? who has far more techniques, battle experience, battle iq, kioken all of that. Now if we're saying raw power, maybe. But confidence plays a long way. Unless your dying on gohans potential unleashed from guru, his years of training with piccolo and goku as well as the year in the hyper time chamber. Maybe goku believes in gohan so much but even still, there is no indication for goku that gohan can beat cell, with or without the senzu. Because gohan dosnt believe in himself the way goku does. He dosnt like fighting. Why would he fight when gohan believes his dad is stronger then him? There is no indication that for gohan, for him to think he's stronger then goku. I don't believe gohan at the start of the cell games is stronger then goku. You'd have to be die on gohans rage and raw power alone that he's stronger then goku
The fuck you talking about goku literally says his stronger and vegeta cell and the rest of the z fighters all say his stronger and are in shock at Gohans strength plus your point on techniques is dumb when dragonball shows time and time again your literally arguing with the source material itself techniques and hacks can be overpowered with just raw power alone
Bro u doing too much it starts at Korins tower where Gohan is unfazed when Goku powers up than him thinking Goku is holding back against Cell because he knows he is stronger than that then the reveal to the Z fighters when he powers up to fight and everyone realizes including Cell and King Kai. Gohan had a decent gap pre Ss2.
Idk about that. Lol One stray Frieza death beam at Goku is what kills him? You got yourselves a hard sell there. Lol I can get that he would lose to Cell, especially after the senzu still being given in this scenario, but nah. He's not Krillin, he's still Goku. Son Himothy.
I don't think Goku is a bad father but the thing is you can say whatever you want about what would of happened if he didn't do this and glaze Z Goku's intelligence but there is absolutely no implication that he had that shit planned out past basically "Yeah Gohan is stronger than me, he can totally do it" also the their not human defense is stupid with Goku, he was raised on earth and even forgot about his heritage due to straight up memory loss, sure he has Saiyan instinct and does Saiyan like things but he should be a human through and through morally.
Huh even if u want to say Goku grow up on earth he didn't live in normal society he was very isolated and is constantly shown to not be knowledgeable of social norms even when he settles down with chi chi the live in very rural eras this is like saying if I raise a chimp with humans it's gonna understand everything it means to be human when the chimp will one day rip it's owners face off over something small now and chimps share over 80% of our DNA Saiyan's are smarter but they still genetically built for fighting over anything even how they choose there partners is coz there hardwired a certain way Goku is basically domesticated but even domesticated animals can act out and be dangerous
@@jadencedras6878 He was still raised by Gohan who taught him basic morals and then spent most of his time around other humans, aside from certain instincts and strength combined with how their society works and they are raised as children Saiyans are much closer to humans than chimps and have a lot more intelligence so thats kinda a nothing example imo. Goku is basically just an off grid hick, sure you can expect him to not be exactly in tune with modern society but I more so brought it up because I feel certain Goku fans use it as some sort of almighty counter point that just excuses all his less defendable actions.
Then Gohan would have easily beaten Cell therefore ,Goku gave him a fair matchup in which didn't matter because once Cell pushes him into a corner along with Android 16 pep talk then Gohan was him in which Goku wanted Cell dead because Goku knew that Gohan was him. You guys calling Goku a deadbeat daddy however father knows best
I think size of ur fuck up also matters. If he jus threw Gohan in no Senzu, Gohan will still be sad he has to fight but the fight will still be mostly even till Gohan goes SS2. But the fact that he did through the Senzu means now Gohan finna get pummeled to kingdom come till he turns SS2.
Gtfoh if gunman broke in yur house on an empty stomach u not gonna fix bro a sandwich and a Gatorade just so yo son can reach his full potential fighting him .
@2:01 shout out to you sage for making me check out that moment from the anime cause you are straight up right. I remember watching that as a kid and not understanding why Vegeta was looking at Gohan like that ruclips.net/video/PSVLgNtnkoo/видео.html
I dont care what you all got to say about this at all but im going to say here that goku have made some of the worst battle decisions ever and overall bad choices and this man has not learned at all despite all the fights he does its so stale and its alway dbgt is a siper winner in my book
I don’t understand why Cell needed a senzu bean anyway. He absorbed 17 & 18 so he should of had unlimited stamina. I mean running out of stamina doesn’t seem very “perfect” to me. Especially when the ones you absorbed don’t run out.🤷🏾♂️
Yeah I had a feeling he would do this. Once u shift the goal post entirely too “he jus didn’t understand his son” u can downplay how poorly this reflects on him as a dad.
Goku is not a bad dad. He is an alien trying to raise a human with his alien mind
Basically a Saiyan I mean people tend forget when Vegeta literally punch trunks in the face when trunks got carried away
@@ghosttemplar6989he punched trunks during a sparring session
That's a stupid thing to say, Goku landed on earth and was raised on it his entire life,Goku is an alien trying to raise a half alien while having a human mind
Vegeta had an alien mind since he wasn't raised on earth.
@@-jay-2993 Exactly my point a child and then bribe him afterwards
@@ZoroRoronaoThat's something you would say about Superman. Goku simply doesn't have a 100% human mindset, because he isn't human. Because he is of an endangered, effectively extinct, warrior race he has a natural drive for battle that surpasses everyone he knows aside from Vegeta. With Goku, it's not nature OR nurture, it's both. I have to say, the only one who said something stupid, was you.
Carthu: The only Dragon Ball fan who can read
You can’t read bro?
@@AM2THEPMwhat did you say? I have no clue since I can’t read
???????????
@@MonkeGod860 🐉 🏀🪭’s 🚫📖
🫵🏾🚫📖😎?
Goku giving Cell the senzu makes everyone overlook Vegeta letting Cell absorb 18
Vegeta letting cell get 18 was the dumbest move ever
Vegeta ain’t a good guy at this point so he gets a pass from me
Honestly, Babidi waiting for the 1 day where Goku gets revived for the tournament really shows he reads the manga.
The *one* day Goku comes from the dead, the fucking apocalypse happens 💀
Well yeah, it’s the world tournament where a bunch of strong people, ie the z fighters, get together
No, he specifically needed Goku back because of how it would make Vegeta act.
@@mashonemthats honestly insane if u think about it, hd truly is a "bad guy magnet"💀
My only thing is that I feel like the Cell arc overplayed Gohan “Not liking to fight” Because when he was on Namek, he was throwing hands with no problem because he knew they were threats. I don’t get why his mindset changed when he fought Cell. If he was strong enough, he would’ve killed Frieza before Goku even got a chance to fight
To be fair when they got to Namek. They weren’t expecting busting threats to be there it was kind of a do or die situation… in this case, it was more like Gohan really didn’t want to be the one to kill cell. Especially after thinking, Goku was going to win when he went first.
@@Adi-bo5do that’s not true because in the very same Manga he tells cell I like fighting if it’s fun or if I have to protect people, but he doesn’t want to be a fighter like his dad who is killing people.
On names he was fighting for his life, here hogan had enough power to take a stance on the situation
Just my take before watching; I think dub Goku has people thinking he's more of a hero than he actually is. Goku has shown plenty times he cares more about the fight than the planet. It tends to lead to him saving the world plenty times but it's more him just being a good person rather than a hero.
for og Z for sure, which is why I love Kai since it fixes the dub issues and is more manga accurate with the dialogue than Z is
His dub speech against Frieza is a big component of it. One of the few things good about DBS is how they got the dub speech right towards Jiren after Jiren tries to wipe out Goku's friends. Goku has always been the, "I don't claim to be a hero, but if you hurt my friends its up for you."
Sure, he cares about the fight, but y’all are making it seem like he doesn’t care for the planet AT ALL which is where my issue is
People who always say "they could have done X to end the whole saga" not understanding the theme of the series, is the character testing themselves through willful adversity. Vegeta let Cell become perfect for a challenge and underestimated him. Or how Goku and Vegeta wanted to fight Kid Buu solo and not fuse, because Kid Buu was no longer fused and his original form.
A lot of people who complain about the choices the characters make just don't get what their in-universe mentalities are. Its a fighting anime first. Not a Superhero one. Goku giving Cell the bean had context, because he was being charitable to Cell when Cell agreed to holding back if he got the challenge he wanted. Its why he hated 10 days for them to get prepared. But people just hate on scenes that are already explained in context, because they want it to fit the meme. Goku has to be a bad dad in the Cell arc for it to work. Even if the actual context of Goku's character is the opposite. Goku was very proud and confident in Gohan, as a Saiyan father. Not as a human dad.
@@ImAviex I see Goku as more of a neutral good character rather than a superhero. He is only good because he is a nice guy and not evil. Evil is bad for his friends, but he doesn't live by a code to do good, its just not in his nature to do bad things. Goku will fight to beat a bad person and push himself, circumstantially. Its clear when he spared Vegeta. He said to Krillin he knows Vegeta is bad and dangerous but promises the next time he will beat him if he tries again and admired him. In Dragonball, might makes right, moreso than anything else. So Goku giving Cell the senzu is no different. Goku tends to trust people he likes to fight, which his naivety. Its why he didnt hold a grudge against Buu or Freeza.
*It makes sense that Goku should be able to master Ssj3 like he did SSj. I still think he would discover it bc Gotenks simply felt it and achieved it while alive. Goku would probably not unlock it as fast as he did in cannon but still he would unlock it*
Brother there’s still people who believe Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan. Does it really surprise you they don’t know SSJ Gohan is stronger than SSJ Goku
Thank you!! Finally someone said it. Kid Buu is only the most dangerous because he’s the most unpredictable and destructive, not most powerful. Buuhan is the strongest but not the most dangerous because he’s not throwing his power around uncontrollably.
@@PURPLE_G0J0He's stronger than super buu not buuhan
@@benevolence2926kid buu isn’t stronger then super buu. Goku was scared shitless of super buu while he was 100% confident he could have taken out kid buu if he started out the fight at full power.
@@konnorpalmer8676 Goku wasnt confident against kid buu initially either. before the fight started his quote '' I dont think we stand a chance but lets try anyways'' paraphrased a little cant be assed to search for the manga now.
Moreover, if super buu was stronger they wouldnt have risked the spirit bomb tactic and went with gohan finishing him instead and before you say they didnt want to risk him being absorbed again, just remember they allowed fat buu to fight kid buu which could have ended with another super buu.
Also,the whole Kakarot your #1 speech by vegeta wouldnt have much weight if gohan was strong enough to finish kidbuu
Either this, or we get the worst possible outcome.
Let me expand, Cell gets desperate before Gohan can get ssj2, Goku dies anyway. Cell returns in his super perfect form. Gohan probably wouldn't have ssj2 still. He'd be sad, not angry. Could still get him ssj2, but he's going to be weaker in ssj2 here because he's not getting rage amped after the increase from ssj2 itself. So Cell may win the Kamehameha clash, destroy the solar system. Killing everybody, possibly awakening Buu. A d regardless of whether Buu or Cell wins here, the outcome is the same. The universe is slowly destroyed and erased by Zeno for having a low mortal level. So the bad ending.
You gotta read Moro n Granolah man. Those arcs are fire
Moro, definitely. Granolah, ehh.
He really don’t know what he missing out on there. The manga changes a lot of what we saw in the anime. I have never seen a show not match the manga like this before. The TOP is different and shows just how strong the side characters are, especially Roshi and even more so Gohan with his fight against Kefla
@@The_Watcher_0granolah arc is great until heaters steal the show, and the namesake of the arc is just forgotten.
I hate the Granolah arc. Moro arc was fire tho
@@iankendall8467 The reason why they're so different is that, in most cases, the manga author writes the manga and then the anime adapts that manga
For DBS, Toriyama essentially just didn't want to come back and write full time, so instead he made some vague notes on what happens, designs most of the characters, and then just hands those notes and designs to Toei and Toyotaro (the writer for DBS manga) and they both interpreted those notes differently
The notes have never been public, but he probably just wrote "Kale and Caulifla fuse, but their fusion is not strong enough and they are defeated," that leaves it too open as to how she is defeated, which is why it's Gohan in the manga and Goku in the anime.
13:45 so basically, Goku had the same plan, but in a different way😂definitely not lacking, just scheming
Dragon ball bad takes fell off the moment Ice Spice said "Goku and I'm just getting started" in her hit song Deli😂😂
I rate carthu a lot, the cell saga is my favourite but I can’t say that’s always been the case when I was much younger. But understanding the nuance of the senzu bean scene and all the reasons why goku would give it in the first place while throwing gohan into the deep end made me love the cell saga even more. It’s genuinely a great character moment for goku and gohan and ppl who genuinely label goku as a bad dad cos of this scene clearly haven’t read the series
Only thing thats different is what happens in dragon ball super superhero. Im not sure if gohan could get his power unlocked in this scenario, so they might be chopped
Didn't realize the Goku vid surpassed the clippers vid well it's official anime sage ≥ NBA sage
Goku with Super saiyan 4 with GOD KAI would've been interesting.
I be coming back around on Sundays to binge sages videos he’s been pushing w content for a hot minute now
WAIT SO. The Reason Goku threw the Senzu Bean is because He Missunderstood his son? With that simplification its so much easier to understand now.
Yeah It simply was because he Though Gohan actually Liked the Hands as much as him
Bruh nobody talks about how gangster of a saiyan father Goku is for this moment.
He’s basically telling Cell:”Listen, I love fighting, but I can’t beat you. But you know who can? MY BOY GOHAN! And I’m SO confident he’s gonna WHOOP YOUR ASS, I’ll let you fight at full strength so you know without a DOUBT you couldn’t win!”
Like bruh, that’s a W proud father moment to me idk.
You see how often Goku and Vegeta nowadays are always fighting to see who gets to fight the villain.
And Goku in this moment GIVES UP HIS FIGHT, for his SONS glory.
Granted he was going to lose he felt but still, contrast that to Vegeta who would rather have died than let his son fight Cell
W video from you and Carthu's Dojo! You're my favorite DB RUclipsr's! Here's my top three:
1.TSO_Sage
2.Seereax
3.Carthu's Dojo
I know it's completely out of left field to give my top three, but I just wanted to share! 😁
seereax is fire him and doto i camt stop watching fr
Rhymestyle and Doto could even share the spot for 2 if you're going over Carthu.
Otherwise it should be Carthu, Sage, and Doto/Rhyme because I've never seen SeeReax just sit down and talk about the mangi. He just mentions it in a gameplay video. Which is cool and he's based, but Doto is doing a watchalong of Z and Rhyme will talk about the manga.
Honorable mention to Totally Not Mark them reviews are really informative.
Seereax over Sage is crazy but I respect it😂😂😅😅
lol gohan asking if there fighting fr is crazy
If piccolo had spoken To him, he would have ended this quicker.
Yo Sage please read the DBS manga. Moro and Granolah are tuff. Even the super hero adaptation aint half bad and adds more context tbh
Bro using gaslight wrong
Giving Goku the benefit of the doubt. He always saw Gohan on the front lines and even witnessed first hand Gohan volunteering to go to Namek and enter the time chamber. Can’t really blame him for not knowing that Gohan sees fighting as a means to an end. Piccolo only realized that during the 6 months of training and during the fight with Nappa. Which gets thrown out the window regardless given Super hero
Im glad I like to read because i definitely felt for the dbz can't read thing. Reading manga has definitely helped me over the years with comes to anime in general. Now, I have a different perspective of both anime and manga.
The thing about Goku being careless and getting hit with a death beam in this version- This reminds me something similar that happened to him by Sorbet. So we know it's technically possible. Also if Kakarrot and Bejita trained together for 7 years, both of them might have unlocked SSJ3 together especially if they are using the room of spirit and time. Because remember, basically the Super Saiyan stages are by grades and not numbers. So SSJ3 is actually grade 6 that Kakarrot unlocked earlier by training non stop in the after life. Also Kakarrot will always be more powerful in what he can give than the prince for a simple reason- Mentors. Karin, Kami at the time Dende now and K. Kai would have never trained the prince. Teachers that our hero learned a lot from.
I was so young when I was watching this man but I wasn’t mad I was excited cuz I knew gohan was gone go crazy I’m 27
this video just made me realize that goku and gohan have never fought a common enemy together at once
I’d say to watch the Sayain Scholars video on this subject it’s very informative
5:56 Damn, spitting facts. Why didn't they just jump him? Lmao
Saiyan Pride for sure and nobody but Gohan, Goku, and maybe Trunks and Vegeta can even scratch him.
They couldn't, it's the same with the Frieza fight when everyone asks the same question. Perfect Cell is strong enough and durable enough to completely ignore the presence of Tien, Piccolo, Yamcha, and Krillin. Trunks and Vegeta got embarrassed by a suppressed Cell, and Goku in the original was exhausted and out of ki.
I have a friend who gives me a hard time every time Goku’s fatherhood is put into question, and it’s always the senzu bean. Doesn’t matter what evidence is presented, the senzu bean is the one factor that ruins Goku for him
Even if Metamoran fusion wouldn’t have been in Goku’s mind in the Broly movie, would they use potara? They’d have to go out of their way to find the supreme kai and shit and idk feels like the movie would’ve went on a Indiana Jones route to find a way to beat Broly.
You should defo read the Super Manga. It’s like a retelling in a own way of Super with a lot of interesting differences. Plus it tends to give Super Saiyan God a lot more respect than the anime
Goku had really fumbled right there
Goku basically did what all Sports Dads do when they found out that they have a son.
I think the reason why goku took the death beam so gohan can unleashed his ssj2
Watch Carthu’s video or Justin’s Den’s videos on the Moro and Granolah arcs if you want to do it quick
Gohan was so strong he couldnt figure out how his dad was so weak 😭
uhh there's a big thing that Carthu glazed over - Gohan won't get his Mystic/Ultimate form because they never meet the Kais. This completely derails his growth path, whatever that path may be in this timeline. Stronger Goku, weaker Gohan (BUT stronger Gohan at the point of vs Dabura obviously)
I think Goku might have actually been cooking with that senzu bean play of his. Cell's a unique fighter in that he's comprised of the DNA of multiple races in the DBverse. The two most notable are his Saiyan and Namekian DNA he inherited. Cell was able to undergo a zenkai boost after regenerating his body after self-destructing in his Semi-Perfect form. This boost enabled him to leapfrog over his Semi-Perfect form even without re-absorbing Android 18, then catapulted him all the way to the equivalent of Super Saiyan 2. If Cell had fought Gohan while fatigued, he would have taken more damage, and Gohan would have still held back unless he experienced the same events that resulted in him awakening his rage-boosted Super Saiyan 2. This could have given Cell more opportunities to obtain a zenkai boost without having to self-destruct after Gohan literally beats Android 18 out of him. We've already seen that Cell's Namekian regeneration doesn't usually kick in until he's sustained serious damage, often involving the partial loss of his body.
I don’t necessarily think Sage is wrong in thinking everyone would have been stronger if Goku stayed alive but I do think his reasoning is wrong
Zenkai boosts basically stopped happening after the Frieza saga, they just straight up aren’t mentioned after that outside of Cell getting one and I think the reason for that has to do with them becoming super Saiyans
This isn’t confirmed in any way to my knowledge but I think becoming a super Saiyan is likely the cut off point for zenkai boosts, as the Saiyans stopped getting them after they became ssj and Perfect Cell become Super Perfect was basically his ssj equivalent
I think Goku staying alive leads to everyone except Goku himself becoming stronger than they were in the Buu saga, because Vegeta would stay motivated and he’d likely keep Gohan in shape bare minimum
As far as ssj3 goes I think he mainly was able to unlock it due to otherworld training so he’d likely just master ssj2 instead (which would probably be better anyways albeit slightly less powerful)
20:38 bro read the manga. This ain’t your first time asking me, too 😭. If u do read it u have to start from the first chapter cuz the arcs happen differently and the powerscaling is different
for your take on goku still reaching SSJ3 i agree, this version of goku still has to be the protector of earth, since Gohan doesnt like fighting, in the original when goku dies he asks to stay dead so threats stop coming to earth, and the moment he comes back for a tournament more baddies show up. so yeah i think Goku keeps training for 7 years and unlock SSJ3 BUT in the original version vegita stops training because of Kakarot's death, with him still alive vegita for sure has SSJ2 without babidi's help we may even get a SSJ3 Goku vs Vegita SSJ3 think about it their both alive for 7 years
edit: i didnt finish the video lol
If Fat buu come out, super Saiyan two would not defeat him
True. 3 didn't either though. But I guess 3 was jabbing his dome and paused the rampage, even if only for 3 minutes.
Fat buu would one shot cell. :(
The crazy part is buutanks is definitely buu in super Saiyan three
lol buu antenna = hair
The hyperbolic time chamber thing still annoys me.
Yoo Sage, in your opinion, who’s the most accomplished villain in DBZ?
It's easily Frieza he literally has a chunk of the universe under his control alot of ppl will say kid buu but alot of his deeds were undone and he was basically turned into a good guy Frieza is still out there conquering the universe and is currently the strongest mortal
Honestly the dbs manga only arcs are what I’d say is the best of dbs, there like what the baby arc is to gt or what the frieza saga is to Z
Sage you spitting with the zeki thing he dosent get it if he is dead
First off yeah we can shift the bad dad arguement to goku not understanding his son which does look bad for him, but not every father in the world can fully understand their son. There are parts of your child that their friends know, your spouse knows, their lovers know that you will never know about. Plus goku has only seen gohan eager to fight which made him assume that he was just like him and his friends not realizing that gohan only sees it as a necessity for survival or a fun hobby that he uses to bond with his dad. so i don't fault goku for not realizing that gohan wasn't like that. Second of all yeah goku most likely can still have ssj3 without being dead. If gotenks can do it who accomplished it with worst stamina and less time since they're a fusion than goku and can stay in the form for a long period of time without any stamina or energy drain, goku can do it it'll just take a long while before he does. Also you should read the manga it has some cool shit, but also dumb shit too.
So, very very very tiny spoiler for the ToP manga is that, part of why #17 is as strong as he is is that he's been battling Cell Jr.'s, since they have Cell's regeneration and they're mostly only cut in half/decapitated/whatever, which, since Cell doesn't spawn Cell Jr.'s in this verse, would mean that ToP #17 is weaker and Universe 7 could lose the tournament, meaning that Jiren gets his wish, uses it selfishly, and leads to the Zeno's erasing Universe 11 immediately afterwards, which would just mean nothing post ToP happens
yeah i also agree that goku would achieve ssj3 on earth but he would be FAAAR stronger than on og timeline and also i think he would achieve it earlier because goku would grow faster because he is training together with gohan and goten and gohan my god he would be a monster by the time of beerus and probably also achieve ssj3
I don’t get how giving an evil mf like cell a senzu bean is a “misunderstanding”. Really?!
woulda been funny af if cell won bc of the senzu bean
Imagine not liking fighting in a franchise all about fighting
I mean to be fair goku did do better against cell as a super saiyan than gohan did. (Even though gohan didn’t really want to fight cell)
Lmfaoo this just makes me think kakarot a goofy even further. Goku really should've just ate that perk instead of giving it to cell then. 😭 This version of Gohan especially moving into the buu saga is much better by a landslide.
You cant tell me you are surprised that people may think Goku was stronger than Gohan when there are still a ton of people that think Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan.
Carthu is generally accurate about many aspects of Dragon Ball, but I genuinely dislike his "what ifs." They follow the timeline but make the characters worse. I understand that's sort of the point, but you can still keep the characters true to themselves without keeping the narrative the same.
Fun Fact: if Goku doesn’t throw the Sensu Bean, Nothing changes!
You should read the manga just so you know about the differences from the DBS anime and the events after the DBS Broly film. Just to. Just to be up to date on things, and not rely on cliff notes from hearsay or comments from fans.
Totally should read Manga
Can’t read or hear or see ong I got all this just from watching
I feel like everything bar the ToP and Superhero would happen the same
Gohan without Ultimate isn’t nearly as strong so he’s so much weaker in the ToP and the movie (if he even makes it there) he’d get bullied imo
You should read the manga you wont be disappointed
Read the Manga, it is peak
Where was 16 the entire time?
Headless somewhere
Please read the manga it’s actually peak
I’m number 80k in subs makes me feel kinda good 🎉
i dont get where you all get that goku was looking for a sucessor at this point in the story. Just look at Uub, a sucessor was just an excuse, all he wanted was a fightin buddy. Also goku wouldnt use ss3 if he hadnt died because he is smart enough to know that form is terrible. Mind you hes the guy that rejects "grade 2" because it keeps the same speed and increases stamina drain.
Uub was after he accepted that he needed to stay around. Him looking for a successor was specifically end of cell saga thinking it would be Gohan, and then Buu saga when he realized Gohan wasn’t currently up to the task. Buu saga ended with Goku accepting it would have to be a group effort and that he needed to remain on earth to remain part of that group because problems will happen even without him
imma need you to read the manga lmao
Sage please read the manga
I disagree with Carthu, I think Cell would've still given the opportunity to blow up, especially since Cell was even much more of a play thing for Gohan powerwise and his overconfidence wouldve been even greater
Cell wouldve tried to explode and theres nothing that earth could do to save earth
Ok I finally got to the point in the vid at 9:57. What is the indication for gohan at ss1 is stronger then ss1 goku? who has far more techniques, battle experience, battle iq, kioken all of that. Now if we're saying raw power, maybe. But confidence plays a long way. Unless your dying on gohans potential unleashed from guru, his years of training with piccolo and goku as well as the year in the hyper time chamber. Maybe goku believes in gohan so much but even still, there is no indication for goku that gohan can beat cell, with or without the senzu. Because gohan dosnt believe in himself the way goku does. He dosnt like fighting. Why would he fight when gohan believes his dad is stronger then him? There is no indication that for gohan, for him to think he's stronger then goku. I don't believe gohan at the start of the cell games is stronger then goku. You'd have to be die on gohans rage and raw power alone that he's stronger then goku
The fuck you talking about goku literally says his stronger and vegeta cell and the rest of the z fighters all say his stronger and are in shock at Gohans strength plus your point on techniques is dumb when dragonball shows time and time again your literally arguing with the source material itself techniques and hacks can be overpowered with just raw power alone
Bro u doing too much it starts at Korins tower where Gohan is unfazed when Goku powers up than him thinking Goku is holding back against Cell because he knows he is stronger than that then the reveal to the Z fighters when he powers up to fight and everyone realizes including Cell and King Kai. Gohan had a decent gap pre Ss2.
@@barry6257 stronger then goku, pre ssj2?
@@Lokoclutch98 YES bro rewatch the Cell fight.
Read the manga please, You definitely will enjoy it.
Manga please also more jjk
Watch video from Carthu about moro arc
Idk about that. Lol One stray Frieza death beam at Goku is what kills him? You got yourselves a hard sell there. Lol I can get that he would lose to Cell, especially after the senzu still being given in this scenario, but nah. He's not Krillin, he's still Goku. Son Himothy.
I don't care what anybody else says. Goku was stupid to put his son at risk. And give the cell a senzu bean.... But for the sake of the plot.
Unfortunately,gohan is literally the only hope in this situation.
I don't think Goku is a bad father but the thing is you can say whatever you want about what would of happened if he didn't do this and glaze Z Goku's intelligence but there is absolutely no implication that he had that shit planned out past basically "Yeah Gohan is stronger than me, he can totally do it" also the their not human defense is stupid with Goku, he was raised on earth and even forgot about his heritage due to straight up memory loss, sure he has Saiyan instinct and does Saiyan like things but he should be a human through and through morally.
Huh even if u want to say Goku grow up on earth he didn't live in normal society he was very isolated and is constantly shown to not be knowledgeable of social norms even when he settles down with chi chi the live in very rural eras this is like saying if I raise a chimp with humans it's gonna understand everything it means to be human when the chimp will one day rip it's owners face off over something small now and chimps share over 80% of our DNA Saiyan's are smarter but they still genetically built for fighting over anything even how they choose there partners is coz there hardwired a certain way Goku is basically domesticated but even domesticated animals can act out and be dangerous
@@jadencedras6878 He was still raised by Gohan who taught him basic morals and then spent most of his time around other humans, aside from certain instincts and strength combined with how their society works and they are raised as children Saiyans are much closer to humans than chimps and have a lot more intelligence so thats kinda a nothing example imo. Goku is basically just an off grid hick, sure you can expect him to not be exactly in tune with modern society but I more so brought it up because I feel certain Goku fans use it as some sort of almighty counter point that just excuses all his less defendable actions.
The stretch of time where Gohan is get his ass beat is likely very traumatize. That is trauma Goku could have avoided if he didn’t through the Senzu.
Please read the manga 👍
Read that manga little bro
Then Gohan would have easily beaten Cell therefore ,Goku gave him a fair matchup in which didn't matter because once Cell pushes him into a corner along with Android 16 pep talk then Gohan was him in which Goku wanted Cell dead because Goku knew that Gohan was him. You guys calling Goku a deadbeat daddy however father knows best
I think size of ur fuck up also matters. If he jus threw Gohan in no Senzu, Gohan will still be sad he has to fight but the fight will still be mostly even till Gohan goes SS2. But the fact that he did through the Senzu means now Gohan finna get pummeled to kingdom come till he turns SS2.
Read the manga pls
You don't need to read to know Gohan in super Saiyan one is stronger than goku at the point
Gtfoh if gunman broke in yur house on an empty stomach u not gonna fix bro a sandwich and a Gatorade just so yo son can reach his full potential fighting him .
@2:01 shout out to you sage for making me check out that moment from the anime cause you are straight up right. I remember watching that as a kid and not understanding why Vegeta was looking at Gohan like that ruclips.net/video/PSVLgNtnkoo/видео.html
Early W
Ofcourse SSJ1 Gohan was stronger than Goku, and not by a small margin, although not by much either.
I dont care what you all got to say about this at all but im going to say here that goku have made some of the worst battle decisions ever and overall bad choices and this man has not learned at all despite all the fights he does its so stale and its alway dbgt is a siper winner in my book
I don’t understand why Cell needed a senzu bean anyway. He absorbed 17 & 18 so he should of had unlimited stamina. I mean running out of stamina doesn’t seem very “perfect” to me. Especially when the ones you absorbed don’t run out.🤷🏾♂️
Cell is purly organic so he doesn't infinite ki
Yeah I had a feeling he would do this. Once u shift the goal post entirely too “he jus didn’t understand his son” u can downplay how poorly this reflects on him as a dad.
Keeyai is Terrible lol
7 years and 32 million views, you fell off 👎