Which romances do you think need minor or major changes? Which should be balefired? And would you add any? Let me know your thoughts on my proposed changes!
I agreed with a lot of what you said! I really hope they improve Tuon's character, I like her and Mat together. I also really like the idea of Morgase and Tam. I'd never thought of it before, but I like it!
@@faylenetroemner9189 Thank you! That's just how I feel about Mat and Tuon. I don't really like her, but I wish I could because I like the way their romance is written.
@@ReadingthePattern I couldn't agree more on expanding Moiraine + Siuan, and altering Tuon's arc to make it so I'm not cheering for her death so Mat can become emperor of Seanchan and potentially find someone worthy of him, then feeling more robbed than Gollum after the riddles in the dark. I also support giving Logain an expanded romance with either an Asha'man or Aes Sedai, or maybe both in another polyamorous relationship cause why stop with one?🤔 I also third the Morgase + Tam relationship which would eventually put Morgase back in a position of some authority in the Two Rivers which is her natural habitat, and just thinking about it makes me feel better about both arcs conclusion.
🄼🄸🄽🄾🅁 🄲🄷🄰🄽🄶🄴🅂 𝐋𝐚𝐧 & 𝐍𝐲𝐧𝐚𝐞𝐯𝐞 - Like, when did they first fall for each other, first become involved? Just all of a sudden 𝔹𝔸𝕄! and they are madly in love with each other! WTF? Nah man, that doesn't work. And she needs to do about 15% less braid tugging when dealing with Lan. 𝐅𝐚𝐢𝐥𝐞 & 𝐏𝐞𝐫𝐫𝐢𝐧 - I agree they need to make sure Faile 𝙖𝙘𝙩𝙨 calm, cool, and collected when Perrin smells the seething jealousy emanating from her. Too many readers hate her because they know how jealous she was, but they forget, without Perrin's nose, we wouldn't have a clue. But haters gonna hater, and "snoopers gonna snoop." (So do Tinkers tink?) 🄼🄰🄹🄾🅁 🄲🄷🄰🄽🄶🄴🅂 𝐀𝐦𝐲𝐬, 𝐋𝐢𝐚𝐧, & 𝐑𝐡𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐜 - Basically, let's see more of it. Let's see what an Aiel marriage of this sort looks like in practice, and how the gender balance actually plays out. I wager it is nothing like the way a polygamous marriage does in the real world plays out, not with Aiel women it isn't! 𝐌𝐚𝐭 & 𝐅𝐨𝐫𝐭𝐮𝐨𝐧𝐚 - Ya gotta fix her. That's all I can really say. That slavery thing. Yeah. She's gotta give for the show, or end up 𝘥𝘢𝘮𝘢𝘯𝘦 herself. Sorry, it had to be said, that's the only solution for it. She gets rid of them, or she gets leashed herself until she agrees to end the practice. Maybe even use a Binder on her when she promises to end all forms of slavery, including damane and the use of the 𝘢'𝘥𝘢𝘮. 𝐆𝐚𝐰𝐲𝐧 & 𝐄𝐠𝐰𝐞𝐧𝐞 - I agree with everyone that this needs to change, and that Gawyn can't stay with Elaida and Tower. But I don't want to see him leave right away, leaving with Siuan, Min, and Leane. I'd like to see it after another encounter or two with the Wonder Women, and some battles. And when he does leave Elaida's dominion, he might even bring some Younglings with him, who knows. 🄱🄰🄻🄴🄵🄸🅁🄴 🄸🅃 𝐒𝐢𝐮𝐚𝐧 & 𝐆𝐚𝐫𝐞𝐭𝐡 𝐁𝐫𝐲𝐧𝐞 - Just drop it. Not needed, does nothing for the story. 𝐌𝐨𝐫𝐠𝐚𝐬𝐞'𝐬 𝐒𝐭𝐨𝐫𝐲𝐥𝐢𝐧𝐞 𝐞𝐧𝐭𝐢𝐫𝐞𝐥𝐲, as noted elsewhere. She just dies in Caemlyn. No body found. Or, maybe body is found, and the damage done to it is good cause for Gawyn to blame Rand as Rand was seen using that type of attack that day (say she dies the day Rand attacks the city).
The major thing for Nynave and Lan, is that Lan gave Nynaeve the ring. The ring of Malkier is constantly touched by Nynaeve and its mentioned like every third page in which Nynaeve exists, which is keeping the love alive from the start to finish.
Thanks for this great video! Very well reasoned, and you were able to put into words many of the things that made me uncomfortable, too. I completely forgot about Siuan and Moiraine in New Spring. Going through the audiobooks and I JUST YESTERDAY got to the part where Egwene tells Moiraine about what happened to her in the tower, and Moiraine's lack of reaction is all the more painful with that New Spring stuff in context. Good work, definitely subscribing!
I think I’d like to see Rand and Elayne meet in TAR while they’re separated. It would be an easy means to keep development going with their relationship while letting their separate plots continue. And maybe even making Aviendha a Dreamwalker or giving her an Aiel dream ter’angreal so she can watch over Rand from a distance while he and Elayne meet. Like maybe she goes off to wash dream spears or something lol. Maybe she catches Lanfear lurking just before Rand has that dream where she bites him. I also think that Aviendha accompanying Rand could serve to provide a more interesting tension, because at this point, Aviendha is only the near-sister of Egwene, and she’s talking up Elayne to Rand mostly because Elayne and Egwene are close. But she could grow to like Elayne more and more just from glimpsing or overhearing her interactions with Rand. Then Aviendha could start to feel jealous and conflicted because she has feelings for Rand now as well. Rand should also feel conflicted because he really cares for Elayne, but is also drawn to Aviendha. Then finally both Rand and Aviendha feel guilty when they come out of the igloo, and Rand decides he can’t hurt Elayne further after the news of her mother. So instead, he hurts her by ignoring her and not showing up in TAR to meet anymore. Then Aviendha shows up in Salidar and the tension is upped again because Min is there, and she reveals that all 3 of them are fated to love Rand. With a few more tweaks, I feel like the rest of it can play out the way it does in the books.
I love all your points and agree they would make the story much better for tv. I would be sad to see Androl and Pravara go tho, they were actually my favorite couple after Nyneive and Lan. Sorry if my spelling is atrocious, audiobook listener.🙈
I would be sad about Pevara and Androl too, they might also be my second favorite. The thought came about because of the prominence of Logain but I might be okay if they did a similar romance with different characters. I can understand the possible need. Also I hear you on spelling when listening to something on audiobook! It’s so tough and you can’t google anything until you’re done in case of spoilers.
Wonderful topic! I agree with some of your ideas, and differ with others... For the minor changes, well, yah, I totally agree, so no comments needed! For the major changes, here are some of my thoughts. Mostly, for Rand "party" I'd really like to see Elayne & Aviendha together as well as with Rand, maybe even more so considering all the time and "adventures" they share. Plus, I like the idea of presenting bisexuality! :P Now, for Egwene and Gawin, I think I would keep Gawin in the Tower a bit longer for a few reasons. 1st, as I think it's Jon from WoTUp that explained that he grew up with Elaida, even thoug he didn't like her, and so even if he let Siuan & Leane leave, he doesn't trust them. So for me, it makes sense that he would stick to the Tower for now. But when Dumai's Wells occur, he's already starting to doubt that she has good intents toward him, like he suspects that the AS with him, especially Galina, wants him and the Younglings dead. Add the torture they impose on Rand and the fact that at that point he doesn't think that he killed his mother since he doesn't know of that rumor, when Min asks him to leave with them, I would make him agree. And since Min knows at least that Elayne is in Salidar, she cld tell him on the condition that he goes to protect her but accept that she'll stay with them. And since he doesn't trust Elaida anymore, it would make sense. Then ofc, he would have the same difficulty believing that Egwene is the true Amyrlin and about everyting else, though he wouldn't need to "bully" his entrance to reach Gareth Bryne later on, and that would make more sense imo too. Now, for Moiraine & Siuan, I think at this point, most ppl see them indeed as a couple, and so do I! And I like the idea of them dedicating most of their time, energy, focus, etc, on their mission, as it fits both their character & their Ajah. Thus they would "renew" their relationship the very few times they might meet again, but yah, I wouldn't make them "break up" it's just clear for them that it's not their priority, as they have such a huge and grand mission that must come 1st, a bit like Siuan actualy tells Gareth! And talking about him, well, I'd keep their relationship to some extand, because, let's not forget that at that point, Siuan believes that Moiraine is dead. And I like Gareth, and the respect and trust he actually shows her, though I would change the "domestic" part indeed. It would make for an interesting reunion with Moiraine later on... ;) Talking about Moiraine, I agree to "balefire" her supposed relationship with Thom, it's never really made sense to me, even re-reading so often their last encounter before her supposed death. There is enough there to give him a reason to save her, ok, but enough for love?!? Or maybe he would love her but she wouldn't return the feeling, it cld b interesting... Maybe make another lady fall in love with him, but he loves elsewhere, though it may become a boring trope, it wld need to be handled carefully... But yah, I'd like to see unrequited love that doesn't "need" to be "fixed" by the end of the story, like in real life!!! Though, we already have quite a good "couple" for that idea, aka Morgase & Tallanvor. Coz indeed, it doesn't make sense imo that she would "finally fall" for him just because he loves her, especially after everything she's been through, the kind of "psychological" rape by Rahvin, then the physical one by Valda, she needs time and care to recover and trust men again. And I don't like the idea of just zipping those events, as I think it's a very important topic to cover, especially after GoT and most especially the discussion on wether Jamie was raping Cersei or not in the Septuaire. And in that regard, I think that your idea of Tam being the one that could help her recover, coz he has the maturity that Tallanvor doesn't have for that. Yet the same "I can see the woman behind the queen" feeling. As for the minor romances, again no real comment, I enjoyed all of them as they are, so could be kept! And yes, I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually gonna give Androl's relationship with Pevara to Logain & Gabrelle, since we already know that his role is expended. What I would like to see more though, is a gay relationship, since with already have potential lesbian and bi, but nothing on the horizon for men. And with Rafe, it wouldn't make sense... :D Oh and if you decide to tackle "The Untamed" (available both here on YT and on Netflix as you prefer), let me know what you think of their protraying of romance, coz... omg everything that could be "shown not told" is sooooooooooooo... no words there, I just love what they've done! Eyes speaking volumes!
According to dictionary.com 😁: “This expression comes from the Bible (Proverbs 31:17) and originally alluded to tucking up the traditional long robe into a girdle (that is, a belt) so it will not hamper physical activity.”
Sometimes I feel like they need to get rid of the Rand + Elayne + Aviendha + Min romance outright. It is not as problematic as it could have been, as the women manage to set their own boundaries, but is still a bit too much male gaze-y for my taste. Maybe add another love interest for Aviendha, to make it less "everybody loves the Dragon".
This one is the toughest, and that’s why it needs it’s own video. And one of the possibilities I will discuss is Elayne and Rand never being in a relationship at all and him never being with more than one of them at the same time. But I’ll talk other options too.
@@ReadingthePattern Yep, the relationships with Min and Aviendha make sense. I wouldn't even mind if they set it up as "they represent his Andoran and Aiel sides", but Elayna can be a good friend/ally and nothing would be lost from the plot. Unless they really want to set up "Children of the Dragon" sequel. Looking forward to that video!
If they break it up, the most likely solution in my eyes would be Elaine+Logain. They have so much time together in the tower and salidar, it can work out well. Then have Min and Aviendha for Rand. Where Aviendha forms the Bond. Of course we would need a women having two Men too. Maybe one of the wise ones, Amys+Rhuarc+Gaul? I don’t know, hard to find 2 important male characters related to one woman in some way.
@@Sw4lley interesting, I had never considered Elayne with Logain 🤔 As for a woman and two men in a relationship I think we will get that with Alanna and her two Warders starting in season 1.
@@ReadingthePattern yeah, it came to mind, because I am currently in the beginning/middle of Lord of Chaos re-read. I think it could work and not change anything, but enrich and further Elaynes story a lot. Having Logain fall in love to gain enaugh will to keep fighting the genteling. He strongarm her enemies and both having knowledge of the game of houses for the succession war. Which will actively reduce Logains time in the Black Tower, which would explain the cult like power gain of Taim. Granted, I only have a rough understand of the tiny Plot-points, I have read the whole thing maybe 2-3 times over 20 years, much is forgotten.
In re Moiraine + Siuan ... I can see it working on a dramatic level, but am wondering why would they bother to emphasize something that the books barely touched on, when there is already so much pressure to cut content to make everything fit. I suppose the question is, what is the benefit and what is the opportunity cost?
I think you could keep Berelain and Galad without spending too much time on it. Instead of showing a full relationship, you could just hint at a relationship to come by having a brief scene similar to Eowyn and Faramir in the chapter The Houses of Healing in RotK. After Galad is injured, in the denouement of the story, they could meet and have a moment of introspection about all the pain and strife of the preceding years. The two super hotties of the book sort of share a meaningful look. Cut to a sun rising over some mountains or something. New day dawning. Yadda yadda yadda. Done. It’s not much more than that in the books anyway.
I was gonna say, that’s pretty much all the book does too 😄. That’s why I put it in the minor romances category that could all go either way. They absolutely could keep it and not spend much time on it or cut it if other changes led them in that direction. It’s not terribly consequential either way. But if both Galad and Berelain remain significant characters and nothing else dictates a change then they’ll probably do what you suggest.
@@ReadingthePattern Agreed. I just always did like that the two “most pretty people” ended up together. They are also characters with surprising depth despite their good looks, which makes them fit sort of poetically. I like both characters, so it might be fun to keep. My vote for a cut would be the Tallanvor thing and the Byrne thing. Maybe it could come out that Morgase was compelled, and similar to Berelain and Galad, we get a hint at the end of a reconciliation between Morgase and Bryne instead. In any event, great video. This is one of the biggest opportunities to improve upon the books, so I hope they take it.
Not just the Perrin and Faile spanking (Perrin and Faile ARE my favorite couple except for the abusive elements) and the Gareth and Siuan spanking, but ALL OF THE NOTORIOUS WHEEL OF TIME SPANKING NEEDS TO GO! Like how does one even visualize how flippantly grownass adults are spanked in this wonderful series and take it seriously? If someone wants to do an "adult parody" at some point, go nuts, BDSM the shit out of it, but holy crap the spanking needs to be balefired like Natrin's barrow!
Totally agree, balefire all the spanking!! If they must keep physical punishment among the Aes Sedai, Aiel, etc fine that’s different, but I bet it won’t be spanking so much as whipping. But absolutely not between love interests or other random adults (Mat to Joline, etc).
@@ReadingthePattern Oh man... I don't think I've ever seen or even heard of the whipping of a woman in, you know, non-adult entertainment! It would be powerful if Egwene received regular LASHINGS in her tempering before taking the seat! They'd need to do it tastefully and carefully (especially with Egwene's actress being a WOC), but it would be much more powerful than "a slippering."
@@omedon666 I think it would be very hard to watch but I can’t imagine between that and Rand’s capture and other moments that we won’t get something like that at some point
Great video. I can definitely see the romances being adjusted in the adaption. About Tuon, I think RJ was correct to show her being unwilling to change her world view. She has had her beliefs ingrained in her from infancy, plus she's royalty. It would be unrealistic to have her come around in such a short time, ta'veren or not. I agree that the outriggers would have provided time for more development. But either way, I don't believe characters have to be likeable to be great. I find the current trend in genre fiction that every character has to be likeable and your friend really off-putting. Great characters don't have to be likeable. RJ knew this. His characters have rough edges and can be petty and human. What they need to be is understandable. We need to be able to understand why they are the way they are, and maybe sympathize, even if we still disapprove of their behaviour. Lastly, I agree that the power dynamics of some of the relationships would be icky to a modern audience. Control and submission was definitely a theme RJ was interested in. I don't think that just because a subject is difficult it shouldn't be examined. But they would have to definitely show some sensitivity and skill! I would just point out that RJ does reverse the dynamic between Siuan and Gareth with Domon and Egeanin. Also, Gareth and Siuan don't really have a proper conversation about what happened till The Gathering Storm, so that's something that could be moved forward if they went ahead with the relationship.
I agree that power dynamics is one of the great balancing acts RJ did well. There were poor decisions and deplorable acts committed by both sexes and while they were disturbing to read they should be presented as the horrendous acts they are. They don't have to be presented in vivid detail, more like the fade to black when Cersei got her revenge on the "shame nun".
You raise some excellent points! And I agree that characters do not all have to be likable. All the characters in WoT are so flawed but that’s part of what makes them real and I would not want to see flaws erased. I also think you are right that given the extreme culture Tuon was raised in it would not make sense for her to change easily. I can understand why RJ might have wanted to take time to do that. But static characters don’t make for the best storytelling and I feel we missed out on where RJ might have been heading with them. My hope is that we will get to see some progression in Tuon’s thinking without it seeming too pat. Also I think I would have been more okay with the power dynamic between Gareth and Siuan if 1) there was no violence and 2) Gareth wasn’t pressing the power he had in multiple ways. It’s a tricky thing, but I’d want it to be clear that he loves her for her strength and abilities and force of personality and he’s not drawn to her because she has come down in the world.
@@ReadingthePattern those are all fair points. All I would add is that it's clear Gareth is attracted to Siuan before he knows who she is. He's willing to follow her and swear to serve the Aes Sedai and lead an army for them (that he probably believes will lead to his death) because of her. It's also clear that Siuan is staying in the arrangement by choice. She could leave him at any time, and no one would stop her. Egwene and the Aes Sedai try to end it multiple times, and Siuan is the one to object. It might start as a matter of personal pride, but it becomes evident that she's in love too. Just like Nynaeve and Lan, they respect and admire the qualities in the other person, but RJ has wrapped it in a power dynamic of giving up and taking control. Not saying it's perfect and can't be improved in an adaptation, but it's interesting.
@@Mido-128 I totally agree with you! For me, Tuon just can't change in so short a time, since those beliefs have been ingrained in her forever, and even more than that, believing that they are wrong is directly attacking her identity, both as Empress and as suldam, so she needs to 1st rebuild a new identity in her own head before she can accept the new reality. And that is something already very hard by itself, so in the middle of such a huge war that may doom humanity, when her army and power might be essential for victory... ouch!!! As for Siuan and Gareth, I love their couple though I don't approve of all their actions... for exactly the same reasons as you mention!
I'm curious, if they kept the Morgase/Tallanvor relationship, would you feel different if they got rid of all the instances of people pressuring her about it? That seemed to be your primary complaint, so remove that negative, is there any other reason not to keep the relationship? Of course, I personally think the entire Morgase plotline should be balefired, have -Idris Elba- Jimmy Smits as Rahvin kill her in Caemlyn long before he and Rand face off. The Trial later on in the story can use someone else as the Judge, or handle it all some other way instead of the way it was in the books.
I probably would be fine with it without the pressure. However I don’t really feel anything for Tallanvor as a character, so I’m not sure I would be invested in it either. I think you could easily be right about Morgase not surviving Rahvin but even if she does survive and have a similar storyline it may need to be reduced and Tallanvor is a character that I think could easily be cut for conservation of characters/casting budget. I think a good romance needs enough time for us to be invested but it can be a bit of a shortcut if we already care about both characters. Hence my Tam suggestion. Or another one I like is have Thom and Morgase reunite on screen, assuming no Thom and Moiraine romance. Again, all assuming Morgase survives and they want to include a romance I think it would be easier to sell it with a character we already know and like.
@@ReadingthePattern I don't know why, I always kinda had a soft spot for Tallanvor. I agree the pressuring wasn't cool, but nonetheless I still rooted for the guy (I always root for the guy or gal hopelessly in love, unless they get gross about it, and I don't think T did; others... yeah)
@@TheGeekyHippie I can understand that. He’s sort of the underdog and it makes sense to root for that. I don’t have any issue with Tallanvor really and the pressure wasn’t coming from him. I think Morgase’s reluctance, wherever it might really come from, was enough to stop me from rooting for him/them. And I can’t recall being really convinced of why Morgase changed her mind, maybe if that part were stronger it would also help.
I think you're spot on with your suggestions, though I did like the thought behind the Moiraine and Thom relationship, just two very wise people who understand each other, I do admit it was a bit weird mostly because of the perceived age difference and Thom's initial bias against Aes Sedai. Their casting a younger Thom would really help that romance and yes the guitar would help too! One potential romance you kind of danced around is Logain and Siuan, both were gentled and given second chances of sorts, I can see them bonding for a while in a future season after their escape, maybe even having them be the first couple to bring Saidar and Saidin together. A bit off topic but that was one over powered thing for Nynaeve with her being able to heal stilling and gentling on her own. RJ made such a big deal about it being impossible to reverse I think it's something Raife could retcon as something that could only be accomplished with both sides of the One Power working together, and this would be a great "power" couple to help Nynaeve accomplish it. The polyamory relationship with Rand is a pretty important one so I'm looking forward to your video on it, and I hope they give it time to develop properly and doesn't devolve into something petty. The Mat Tuon relationship is probably the one I'm most worried about in the show, mostly because the two characters are such opposites. The whole carefree versus tyrant dynamic would be pretty easy to not spend enough time making us believe that the match would work in the end.
I actually like that about Moiraine and Thom as well. Reminds me a bit of Nynaeve and Lan where it’s two people recognizing a specific kind of competence in the other one and being impressed. I find that wholesome and appealing. If the show had wanted to expand Moiraine and Thom I would have been here for it, but I can also understand why they might not be able to invest what they would need to in it. It’s a very long payoff. People keep giving me interesting suggestions for Logain romances, I’ve never thought of Siuan 🤔
They should just drop that awkward love "square" altogether. Let Elayne and Aviendha get together and let Min have Rand. Not that I like Rand/Min as a pairing, but the whole set up of Rand and his three women is unsolvable. I agree about everything you say about Nynaeve/Lan, Perrin/Faile and Mat/Tuon. Tuon needs to snap out of her Seanchan thinking if they want the audience to like her at all.
It seems important Rand is with the 3 women. His role is to impregnate both Aviendah and Elayne which he does in a very quick order. Min is I think his true love and RJ has her remain with him to the end. I always thought Elayne's fascination with Rand is because he was destined to die at the last battle.
With this review I realised that there is a lot of domestic violence in the books and it is written in a way that seems accepted. And while that might be reality in the real world situations, I think that if domestic violence (or other abuse) is shown, it should be written in a way that it is not acceptable way to treat people. If one of the characters were to spank/hit their partners, I think the partner should clearly show his/her resentment and then let the character grow.
I've resented the treatment the Wise ones, the Aes Sedai and the Windtalkers treat the novices. This constant 'switching' the girls is overly done and I'm amazed RJ's wife didn't try to stop it. I find it disgusting
Perhaps the character Dana who appears in season 1 is essentially the same character as Dena and we will? Certainly if they are not going to cut that whole thing seeing more of her would make sense.
In my opinion, fandom's there are two big problems with the Faile/Perrin romance. First, the Faile capture plot. It went on forever. If this is retained in the series, I think at most, the plot will take up half a season. That will help. Second, many are uncomfortable with the times Perrin spanks Faile and other instances when he uses force against her. I think the show will not have Perrin spank her or otherwise use his strength against her in a way that would resemblance physical abuse. I could see them having Perrin pick up Faile to prevent her from trying to physically attack Berelain. To me that is not an example of abuse. Gawyn leaving with Min, Leane, Siuan would be a nice change. I like it. It would get rid of Gawyn believing what some random peddler said about Rand killing Morgase. I would balefire Thom and Moiraine relationship and Morgase and Tallanvor. I think it would be best to have Rahvin kill Morgase. I would 100% cut the Mat/Tylin relationship. But I would keep Siuan and Gareth. If you cut Androl/Pevera, then make Logain double bonded with Gabrielle. Personally, I hope they keep Pevera/Androl while also expanding Logain's role. I think the Black Tower is big enough to have both Androl and an expanded Logain. BTW, I like the new avatar.
I think you’re right about Perrin and Faile and that’s why I say relatively easy changes will make it easier to see the good that is there. I think Gawyn’s hatred of Rand could end up dropped. My guess is they won’t interact in season 1 so it wouldn’t have much impact if they don’t know each other. Also wouldn’t surprise me if Morgase is killed by Rahvin but I wouldn’t mind if they keep her storyline with some changes. And I’d love it if you’re right about both expanded Logain and keeping Androl/Pevara, I would enjoy both if possible. Thank you on the avatar!
Mat and Tylin don't have a relationship. Tylin rapes and abuses him. Mat gets some Stockholm syndrome type feelings, but it's definitely not a relationship, that requires mutual consent, which they never had. I think they should keep it Mat being abused, because it gives Mat excellent cover (he gets really underestimated), because it stops Mat from becoming Mary Sue and because men as victims of rape/abuse are too rarely shown. It would be good representation, but it definitely needs to be handled better. It gets a bit swept under the rug.
The problem with Faile isn't as much Perrin's occasional (twice, I think...) physical violence towards Faile, as much as her constant psychological abuse of Perrin. Tuon mostly gets no pass about slavery for her cultural differences, why should Faile? WOT was written in different times. Mat/Tylin was totally written as comedy, and he did think fondly of her even several books later, till the last Battle.
@@ChristmasLore Mat locks and bars the door of his bedroom because he's afraid of Tylin, and is unable to even close his eyes, much less sleep. She literally starves him and holds a knife to his throat when he tries to get away from her. Afterwards "Mat put a hand over his eyes and tried very hard not to weep". And when he's told they must stay another week he grows frantic, feels strangled and makes it clear he wants out of Ebou Dar. "Moghedian and Tylin. Of the two, he would rather confront Moghedien. At least he had some protection against Moghedien" "In another minute, he was afraid, he might just start crying". When talking to Elayne he says: "That woman won't take no for an answer; I say no and she laughs at me. She's starved me, bullied me " Despite feeling overwhelmed with shame, he does confirm to Elayne that he wants her to help him get out of the situation. Mat makes it clear he does not want to be with Tylin, he's desperate to escape and he also mentions that she jumped him while he was still severely injured. While he does express fondness for Tylin later, it's very clear he did not want to be stuck in that situation. And he later tells Tuon very clearly that if she treats him like a toy, he will leave, because he won't stand for it. Consider the Mat/Tylin situation with their genders swapped and ask yourself, is that funny? Because a lot of us who actually read them over 20 years ago, didn't think it was funny back then either.
@@chriszorander9333 , he's never "starved", he just can't eat at the palace, but he's never prisoner in said palace. The barricading can be read as comical and theatrical. The weeping might be from shame, the part he truly hates about the relationship: being viewed* as a toy ( that's what bothers him, the fact that the son, the servants, the whole town knows. He never truly considers leaving the Palace, and even comes up with excuses why he shouldn't). It's all open to personal interpretation, though. It's not about if I found this kind of thing funny back then or now (I don't), but relating to the times it was written. Awareness to some topics was simply not a thing. It wasn't.
I think that Gareth and suan interaction you want to cut is probably important. You have to remember that for the first time in probably decades he was a man who went from having a lot of work in the capital to being put out to pasture. And for the 1st time in probably months he had an excuse to leave and manmer and had the making of an adventure. Some of it became a game and some oaths he felt were to great to be broken so easy. And its not improbable to think that a bunch of Aes sedai can act without her. They were always built up to be highly competent, as far as the world was concerned anyway. As for the spanking that seemed to be the go to punishment in that world. It showed that this once most powerful person in their known society threw a tantrum along with the boots and got treated accordingly.
Great video! I would miss the love parallelogram! That and the veins of gold... You are right that the relationships don't have enough screen time to develop the way they are depicted... Egwene and Gawyn...ugh... I fell in love in a dream... "Do you know he has a real hatred of your childhood friend without any evidence?" And you are ok with that? Her character could use some sandpaper to cleanup some of the rough spots... At times her flaws are near unforgivable... I don't know if she has time to develop a loving relationship as she schools the Aes Sedai into some functioning group... As a general note... there is a fair amount of sexual desire shaming throughout the books mostly because of the POV characters are mostly from a conservative culture... There is a decided lack of passion between these pairings... when do we get the "moment" when we know there is a love bond... Nynaeve has a conversation with Lan and we are supposed to get the Passion? I know we get a moment between them where Lan kisses Nynaeve without permission while she struggles against him until she melts... As a fantasy, many people might find that fun... We would all like to make our lovers melt from a kiss or receive a kiss like that...but someone might scream bloody murder about that trope being portrayed in TV today... Oh well, keep up the great content. I enjoy the content you provide!
Thom and Morrian: I love them both individually but hate them as a couple. Mostly because no true ground work was laid for their relationship. The groundwork was laid for them to respect and accept each other but not to love each other. It almost felt like Jordan didn't know how to rescue her without a love letter
I totally agree, love them individually but no ground work. If the show had wanted to go in the direction of spending more time to build that up I would have been totally fine with it, but my guess is they’re not. And I can understand why, they’d have to start laying the groundwork in season 1 for something that at best would pay off many seasons later.
My only issue here is that I really enjoyed Gareth and Siuan.I think he sees her right from the beginning and his holding her to her promise is simply because he wants to stay with her and knows she has never felt real security and boundaries since leaving home.
I wanted to like them, because there are things I enjoy but a lot of the execution failed for me. It think it could be salvageable. But it might depend what they do with Moiraine and Siuan, I’d rather have whatever they can do with that romance if I were to choose.
One thing I'd like to see is more flings and breakups. Like this they smiled at each other once 5 books ago thing and now they are getting married has to go. It's okay for a relationship to last a season or two and then they break up.
I agree with this for sure! I’d love to see that happen, it’s far more realistic. I’ll discuss that possibility in the video about Rand’s relationships, but there are other possibilities as well, including maybe having Mat have another romance (that doesn’t involve sexual assault or attempted murder).
The answer for Rands relationships is easy but will make the fans mad. Let all but one survive (I would say Elyane because that one is the longer term one). Problem solved GOT style.
I'm in complete agreement regarding Morghase. Balefire the role along with the other minor romances. Hopefully these characters will be eliminated all together
This was one of the best videos on what should change for the adaptation I've seen. The only romance that needs to go is Matt and Tylin. That is the one thing I'm confident will be cut from the show if they make it that far.
Thank you! So Mat and Tylin is one I opted not to talk about in this video because it didn't quite fit the format. I'm not entirely sure I want to consider what they have a "romance" though I can see an argument that it sort of becomes one. I'm potentially in favor of it being kept in the show if it is clear that it is not a romance, Mat wasn't playing hard to get, and Tylin did assault him. It would make for an important conversation but they have to get the tone and the narrative just right so it is very tricky and if they can't do that, then they should probably cut it.
I also didn’t like it. But I don’t think the adaptation will need to show the ripple effects of a world where women run everything. Though I don’t want lame excuses for men’s behavior, like see it’s not men it’s just power.
I agree, I thought the Mat and Tylin "relationship" was pretty dark and unnecessary at first, but later in thinking about all the assaults in the books, it adds balance to their scope, and I think it would be interesting to see if they bring the whole Stockholm syndrome and domestic violence awareness to the screen. On another note, it was one of those near death situations where Mat was lucky enough to be able to work his way out of just in time also, adding another layer to his incredible story.
@@anydaynow01 I totally agree, it's why I would like that storyline to be kept. Imo, it's a topic that should be addressed, and I like that it's actually from a "reverse" position as it's usually seen...
the 3 women in rands life should be sequential rather than concurrent, it really is this way in the books til the women work it out, if elayne and avi work things out before then so be it
Come on. Rand has travelling. That makes it so easy to fix the time apart problem. Re Tuon, leave as is. If GoT teaches us anything is that if we want the show to be popular, we should not shy away from "problematic" elements. Otherwise we end up with a bland/safe product.
I think traveling might be a way to address the poly relationship and I’ll cover that in an upcoming video. I definitely don’t want to take out everything problematic but it’s a question of how to handle it. For instance, if a woman hitting a man or a man spanking a woman is played for laughs, not interested. I think Tuon should be essentially as she is but with a little more character evolution, which she might have gotten in the outrigger novels if we had ever gotten them.
Pretty sure its just going to be whatever attractive character runs into another attractive characters and having sex. Most likely one solid sex scene per episode.
Which romances do you think need minor or major changes? Which should be balefired? And would you add any? Let me know your thoughts on my proposed changes!
I agreed with a lot of what you said! I really hope they improve Tuon's character, I like her and Mat together. I also really like the idea of Morgase and Tam. I'd never thought of it before, but I like it!
@@faylenetroemner9189 Thank you! That's just how I feel about Mat and Tuon. I don't really like her, but I wish I could because I like the way their romance is written.
@@ReadingthePattern I couldn't agree more on expanding Moiraine + Siuan, and altering Tuon's arc to make it so I'm not cheering for her death so Mat can become emperor of Seanchan and potentially find someone worthy of him, then feeling more robbed than Gollum after the riddles in the dark. I also support giving Logain an expanded romance with either an Asha'man or Aes Sedai, or maybe both in another polyamorous relationship cause why stop with one?🤔 I also third the Morgase + Tam relationship which would eventually put Morgase back in a position of some authority in the Two Rivers which is her natural habitat, and just thinking about it makes me feel better about both arcs conclusion.
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𝐋𝐚𝐧 & 𝐍𝐲𝐧𝐚𝐞𝐯𝐞 - Like, when did they first fall for each other, first become involved? Just all of a sudden 𝔹𝔸𝕄! and they are madly in love with each other! WTF? Nah man, that doesn't work. And she needs to do about 15% less braid tugging when dealing with Lan.
𝐅𝐚𝐢𝐥𝐞 & 𝐏𝐞𝐫𝐫𝐢𝐧 - I agree they need to make sure Faile 𝙖𝙘𝙩𝙨 calm, cool, and collected when Perrin smells the seething jealousy emanating from her. Too many readers hate her because they know how jealous she was, but they forget, without Perrin's nose, we wouldn't have a clue. But haters gonna hater, and "snoopers gonna snoop." (So do Tinkers tink?)
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𝐀𝐦𝐲𝐬, 𝐋𝐢𝐚𝐧, & 𝐑𝐡𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐜 - Basically, let's see more of it. Let's see what an Aiel marriage of this sort looks like in practice, and how the gender balance actually plays out. I wager it is nothing like the way a polygamous marriage does in the real world plays out, not with Aiel women it isn't!
𝐌𝐚𝐭 & 𝐅𝐨𝐫𝐭𝐮𝐨𝐧𝐚 - Ya gotta fix her. That's all I can really say. That slavery thing. Yeah. She's gotta give for the show, or end up 𝘥𝘢𝘮𝘢𝘯𝘦 herself. Sorry, it had to be said, that's the only solution for it. She gets rid of them, or she gets leashed herself until she agrees to end the practice. Maybe even use a Binder on her when she promises to end all forms of slavery, including damane and the use of the 𝘢'𝘥𝘢𝘮.
𝐆𝐚𝐰𝐲𝐧 & 𝐄𝐠𝐰𝐞𝐧𝐞 - I agree with everyone that this needs to change, and that Gawyn can't stay with Elaida and Tower. But I don't want to see him leave right away, leaving with Siuan, Min, and Leane. I'd like to see it after another encounter or two with the Wonder Women, and some battles. And when he does leave Elaida's dominion, he might even bring some Younglings with him, who knows.
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𝐒𝐢𝐮𝐚𝐧 & 𝐆𝐚𝐫𝐞𝐭𝐡 𝐁𝐫𝐲𝐧𝐞 - Just drop it. Not needed, does nothing for the story.
𝐌𝐨𝐫𝐠𝐚𝐬𝐞'𝐬 𝐒𝐭𝐨𝐫𝐲𝐥𝐢𝐧𝐞 𝐞𝐧𝐭𝐢𝐫𝐞𝐥𝐲, as noted elsewhere. She just dies in Caemlyn. No body found. Or, maybe body is found, and the damage done to it is good cause for Gawyn to blame Rand as Rand was seen using that type of attack that day (say she dies the day Rand attacks the city).
Your Tam and Morgase idea is brilliant. I would love to see that used in the show.
The major thing for Nynave and Lan, is that Lan gave Nynaeve the ring. The ring of Malkier is constantly touched by Nynaeve and its mentioned like every third page in which Nynaeve exists, which is keeping the love alive from the start to finish.
You're right, and that's a detail that works even better in a visual medium so they should definitely keep that!
Thanks for this great video! Very well reasoned, and you were able to put into words many of the things that made me uncomfortable, too. I completely forgot about Siuan and Moiraine in New Spring. Going through the audiobooks and I JUST YESTERDAY got to the part where Egwene tells Moiraine about what happened to her in the tower, and Moiraine's lack of reaction is all the more painful with that New Spring stuff in context. Good work, definitely subscribing!
I actually like Tuon. She really loved him.
I like gareth and suian for one reason... They are both so similiar and stubborn its hillarious. I'm not taking about their actions more the potential
I oddly agree they do have some potential. I could like their personalities together but the rest of it bugs me.
I think I’d like to see Rand and Elayne meet in TAR while they’re separated. It would be an easy means to keep development going with their relationship while letting their separate plots continue. And maybe even making Aviendha a Dreamwalker or giving her an Aiel dream ter’angreal so she can watch over Rand from a distance while he and Elayne meet. Like maybe she goes off to wash dream spears or something lol. Maybe she catches Lanfear lurking just before Rand has that dream where she bites him.
I also think that Aviendha accompanying Rand could serve to provide a more interesting tension, because at this point, Aviendha is only the near-sister of Egwene, and she’s talking up Elayne to Rand mostly because Elayne and Egwene are close. But she could grow to like Elayne more and more just from glimpsing or overhearing her interactions with Rand.
Then Aviendha could start to feel jealous and conflicted because she has feelings for Rand now as well. Rand should also feel conflicted because he really cares for Elayne, but is also drawn to Aviendha. Then finally both Rand and Aviendha feel guilty when they come out of the igloo, and Rand decides he can’t hurt Elayne further after the news of her mother. So instead, he hurts her by ignoring her and not showing up in TAR to meet anymore.
Then Aviendha shows up in Salidar and the tension is upped again because Min is there, and she reveals that all 3 of them are fated to love Rand. With a few more tweaks, I feel like the rest of it can play out the way it does in the books.
One of the elements of the books that I think needed work, I am sure the show creators will do that
I love the premise. Great content. Thank you.
I loved Siuan and Gareth in the books. They are both great people that deserved happiness with each other. 😭
I love all your points and agree they would make the story much better for tv. I would be sad to see Androl and Pravara go tho, they were actually my favorite couple after Nyneive and Lan. Sorry if my spelling is atrocious, audiobook listener.🙈
I would be sad about Pevara and Androl too, they might also be my second favorite. The thought came about because of the prominence of Logain but I might be okay if they did a similar romance with different characters. I can understand the possible need.
Also I hear you on spelling when listening to something on audiobook! It’s so tough and you can’t google anything until you’re done in case of spoilers.
Wonderful topic! I agree with some of your ideas, and differ with others...
For the minor changes, well, yah, I totally agree, so no comments needed!
For the major changes, here are some of my thoughts. Mostly, for Rand "party" I'd really like to see Elayne & Aviendha together as well as with Rand, maybe even more so considering all the time and "adventures" they share. Plus, I like the idea of presenting bisexuality! :P Now, for Egwene and Gawin, I think I would keep Gawin in the Tower a bit longer for a few reasons. 1st, as I think it's Jon from WoTUp that explained that he grew up with Elaida, even thoug he didn't like her, and so even if he let Siuan & Leane leave, he doesn't trust them. So for me, it makes sense that he would stick to the Tower for now. But when Dumai's Wells occur, he's already starting to doubt that she has good intents toward him, like he suspects that the AS with him, especially Galina, wants him and the Younglings dead. Add the torture they impose on Rand and the fact that at that point he doesn't think that he killed his mother since he doesn't know of that rumor, when Min asks him to leave with them, I would make him agree. And since Min knows at least that Elayne is in Salidar, she cld tell him on the condition that he goes to protect her but accept that she'll stay with them. And since he doesn't trust Elaida anymore, it would make sense. Then ofc, he would have the same difficulty believing that Egwene is the true Amyrlin and about everyting else, though he wouldn't need to "bully" his entrance to reach Gareth Bryne later on, and that would make more sense imo too.
Now, for Moiraine & Siuan, I think at this point, most ppl see them indeed as a couple, and so do I! And I like the idea of them dedicating most of their time, energy, focus, etc, on their mission, as it fits both their character & their Ajah. Thus they would "renew" their relationship the very few times they might meet again, but yah, I wouldn't make them "break up" it's just clear for them that it's not their priority, as they have such a huge and grand mission that must come 1st, a bit like Siuan actualy tells Gareth! And talking about him, well, I'd keep their relationship to some extand, because, let's not forget that at that point, Siuan believes that Moiraine is dead. And I like Gareth, and the respect and trust he actually shows her, though I would change the "domestic" part indeed. It would make for an interesting reunion with Moiraine later on... ;)
Talking about Moiraine, I agree to "balefire" her supposed relationship with Thom, it's never really made sense to me, even re-reading so often their last encounter before her supposed death. There is enough there to give him a reason to save her, ok, but enough for love?!? Or maybe he would love her but she wouldn't return the feeling, it cld b interesting... Maybe make another lady fall in love with him, but he loves elsewhere, though it may become a boring trope, it wld need to be handled carefully... But yah, I'd like to see unrequited love that doesn't "need" to be "fixed" by the end of the story, like in real life!!!
Though, we already have quite a good "couple" for that idea, aka Morgase & Tallanvor. Coz indeed, it doesn't make sense imo that she would "finally fall" for him just because he loves her, especially after everything she's been through, the kind of "psychological" rape by Rahvin, then the physical one by Valda, she needs time and care to recover and trust men again. And I don't like the idea of just zipping those events, as I think it's a very important topic to cover, especially after GoT and most especially the discussion on wether Jamie was raping Cersei or not in the Septuaire. And in that regard, I think that your idea of Tam being the one that could help her recover, coz he has the maturity that Tallanvor doesn't have for that. Yet the same "I can see the woman behind the queen" feeling.
As for the minor romances, again no real comment, I enjoyed all of them as they are, so could be kept! And yes, I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually gonna give Androl's relationship with Pevara to Logain & Gabrelle, since we already know that his role is expended. What I would like to see more though, is a gay relationship, since with already have potential lesbian and bi, but nothing on the horizon for men. And with Rafe, it wouldn't make sense... :D
Oh and if you decide to tackle "The Untamed" (available both here on YT and on Netflix as you prefer), let me know what you think of their protraying of romance, coz... omg everything that could be "shown not told" is sooooooooooooo... no words there, I just love what they've done! Eyes speaking volumes!
I actually agree with all these suggestions.
There is the Lanfear Rand “relationship” I think that could be developed better.
That's what Mierin said!
She's a creepy insane stalker and I felt that was shown well.
Wonderful work Thank you. This is something that's bothered me for some 40 years... How exactly does one gird one's loins?
According to dictionary.com 😁: “This expression comes from the Bible (Proverbs 31:17) and originally alluded to tucking up the traditional long robe into a girdle (that is, a belt) so it will not hamper physical activity.”
@@ReadingthePattern Gay male here, so absolutely no idea how a girdle works but thanks so much for your reply. 🥰
Sometimes I feel like they need to get rid of the Rand + Elayne + Aviendha + Min romance outright. It is not as problematic as it could have been, as the women manage to set their own boundaries, but is still a bit too much male gaze-y for my taste. Maybe add another love interest for Aviendha, to make it less "everybody loves the Dragon".
This one is the toughest, and that’s why it needs it’s own video. And one of the possibilities I will discuss is Elayne and Rand never being in a relationship at all and him never being with more than one of them at the same time. But I’ll talk other options too.
@@ReadingthePattern Yep, the relationships with Min and Aviendha make sense. I wouldn't even mind if they set it up as "they represent his Andoran and Aiel sides", but Elayna can be a good friend/ally and nothing would be lost from the plot. Unless they really want to set up "Children of the Dragon" sequel. Looking forward to that video!
If they break it up, the most likely solution in my eyes would be Elaine+Logain. They have so much time together in the tower and salidar, it can work out well.
Then have Min and Aviendha for Rand. Where Aviendha forms the Bond. Of course we would need a women having two Men too. Maybe one of the wise ones, Amys+Rhuarc+Gaul? I don’t know, hard to find 2 important male characters related to one woman in some way.
@@Sw4lley interesting, I had never considered Elayne with Logain 🤔
As for a woman and two men in a relationship I think we will get that with Alanna and her two Warders starting in season 1.
@@ReadingthePattern yeah, it came to mind, because I am currently in the beginning/middle of Lord of Chaos re-read. I think it could work and not change anything, but enrich and further Elaynes story a lot. Having Logain fall in love to gain enaugh will to keep fighting the genteling. He strongarm her enemies and both having knowledge of the game of houses for the succession war. Which will actively reduce Logains time in the Black Tower, which would explain the cult like power gain of Taim.
Granted, I only have a rough understand of the tiny Plot-points, I have read the whole thing maybe 2-3 times over 20 years, much is forgotten.
In re Moiraine + Siuan ... I can see it working on a dramatic level, but am wondering why would they bother to emphasize something that the books barely touched on, when there is already so much pressure to cut content to make everything fit. I suppose the question is, what is the benefit and what is the opportunity cost?
The show’s here now and Nynaeve and Lan are my faves even tho I haven’t read the book 🥺🥺🥺 Thinking about doing it tho
I think you could keep Berelain and Galad without spending too much time on it. Instead of showing a full relationship, you could just hint at a relationship to come by having a brief scene similar to Eowyn and Faramir in the chapter The Houses of Healing in RotK.
After Galad is injured, in the denouement of the story, they could meet and have a moment of introspection about all the pain and strife of the preceding years. The two super hotties of the book sort of share a meaningful look. Cut to a sun rising over some mountains or something. New day dawning. Yadda yadda yadda. Done.
It’s not much more than that in the books anyway.
I was gonna say, that’s pretty much all the book does too 😄. That’s why I put it in the minor romances category that could all go either way. They absolutely could keep it and not spend much time on it or cut it if other changes led them in that direction. It’s not terribly consequential either way. But if both Galad and Berelain remain significant characters and nothing else dictates a change then they’ll probably do what you suggest.
@@ReadingthePattern Agreed.
I just always did like that the two “most pretty people” ended up together. They are also characters with surprising depth despite their good looks, which makes them fit sort of poetically. I like both characters, so it might be fun to keep.
My vote for a cut would be the Tallanvor thing and the Byrne thing. Maybe it could come out that Morgase was compelled, and similar to Berelain and Galad, we get a hint at the end of a reconciliation between Morgase and Bryne instead.
In any event, great video. This is one of the biggest opportunities to improve upon the books, so I hope they take it.
Not just the Perrin and Faile spanking (Perrin and Faile ARE my favorite couple except for the abusive elements) and the Gareth and Siuan spanking, but ALL OF THE NOTORIOUS WHEEL OF TIME SPANKING NEEDS TO GO! Like how does one even visualize how flippantly grownass adults are spanked in this wonderful series and take it seriously? If someone wants to do an "adult parody" at some point, go nuts, BDSM the shit out of it, but holy crap the spanking needs to be balefired like Natrin's barrow!
Totally agree, balefire all the spanking!! If they must keep physical punishment among the Aes Sedai, Aiel, etc fine that’s different, but I bet it won’t be spanking so much as whipping. But absolutely not between love interests or other random adults (Mat to Joline, etc).
@@ReadingthePattern Oh man... I don't think I've ever seen or even heard of the whipping of a woman in, you know, non-adult entertainment! It would be powerful if Egwene received regular LASHINGS in her tempering before taking the seat! They'd need to do it tastefully and carefully (especially with Egwene's actress being a WOC), but it would be much more powerful than "a slippering."
@@omedon666 I think it would be very hard to watch but I can’t imagine between that and Rand’s capture and other moments that we won’t get something like that at some point
Great video. I can definitely see the romances being adjusted in the adaption.
About Tuon, I think RJ was correct to show her being unwilling to change her world view. She has had her beliefs ingrained in her from infancy, plus she's royalty. It would be unrealistic to have her come around in such a short time, ta'veren or not. I agree that the outriggers would have provided time for more development. But either way, I don't believe characters have to be likeable to be great. I find the current trend in genre fiction that every character has to be likeable and your friend really off-putting. Great characters don't have to be likeable. RJ knew this. His characters have rough edges and can be petty and human. What they need to be is understandable. We need to be able to understand why they are the way they are, and maybe sympathize, even if we still disapprove of their behaviour.
Lastly, I agree that the power dynamics of some of the relationships would be icky to a modern audience. Control and submission was definitely a theme RJ was interested in. I don't think that just because a subject is difficult it shouldn't be examined. But they would have to definitely show some sensitivity and skill! I would just point out that RJ does reverse the dynamic between Siuan and Gareth with Domon and Egeanin. Also, Gareth and Siuan don't really have a proper conversation about what happened till The Gathering Storm, so that's something that could be moved forward if they went ahead with the relationship.
I agree that power dynamics is one of the great balancing acts RJ did well. There were poor decisions and deplorable acts committed by both sexes and while they were disturbing to read they should be presented as the horrendous acts they are. They don't have to be presented in vivid detail, more like the fade to black when Cersei got her revenge on the "shame nun".
You raise some excellent points! And I agree that characters do not all have to be likable. All the characters in WoT are so flawed but that’s part of what makes them real and I would not want to see flaws erased.
I also think you are right that given the extreme culture Tuon was raised in it would not make sense for her to change easily. I can understand why RJ might have wanted to take time to do that. But static characters don’t make for the best storytelling and I feel we missed out on where RJ might have been heading with them. My hope is that we will get to see some progression in Tuon’s thinking without it seeming too pat.
Also I think I would have been more okay with the power dynamic between Gareth and Siuan if 1) there was no violence and 2) Gareth wasn’t pressing the power he had in multiple ways. It’s a tricky thing, but I’d want it to be clear that he loves her for her strength and abilities and force of personality and he’s not drawn to her because she has come down in the world.
@@ReadingthePattern those are all fair points. All I would add is that it's clear Gareth is attracted to Siuan before he knows who she is. He's willing to follow her and swear to serve the Aes Sedai and lead an army for them (that he probably believes will lead to his death) because of her. It's also clear that Siuan is staying in the arrangement by choice. She could leave him at any time, and no one would stop her. Egwene and the Aes Sedai try to end it multiple times, and Siuan is the one to object. It might start as a matter of personal pride, but it becomes evident that she's in love too. Just like Nynaeve and Lan, they respect and admire the qualities in the other person, but RJ has wrapped it in a power dynamic of giving up and taking control. Not saying it's perfect and can't be improved in an adaptation, but it's interesting.
@@Mido-128 I totally agree with you! For me, Tuon just can't change in so short a time, since those beliefs have been ingrained in her forever, and even more than that, believing that they are wrong is directly attacking her identity, both as Empress and as suldam, so she needs to 1st rebuild a new identity in her own head before she can accept the new reality. And that is something already very hard by itself, so in the middle of such a huge war that may doom humanity, when her army and power might be essential for victory... ouch!!!
As for Siuan and Gareth, I love their couple though I don't approve of all their actions... for exactly the same reasons as you mention!
Well now, pretty much every point in this video had me going "yup, that's exactly right...!"
Awww, thank you! Glad you agree 😄
I'm curious, if they kept the Morgase/Tallanvor relationship, would you feel different if they got rid of all the instances of people pressuring her about it? That seemed to be your primary complaint, so remove that negative, is there any other reason not to keep the relationship?
Of course, I personally think the entire Morgase plotline should be balefired, have -Idris Elba- Jimmy Smits as Rahvin kill her in Caemlyn long before he and Rand face off. The Trial later on in the story can use someone else as the Judge, or handle it all some other way instead of the way it was in the books.
I probably would be fine with it without the pressure. However I don’t really feel anything for Tallanvor as a character, so I’m not sure I would be invested in it either. I think you could easily be right about Morgase not surviving Rahvin but even if she does survive and have a similar storyline it may need to be reduced and Tallanvor is a character that I think could easily be cut for conservation of characters/casting budget. I think a good romance needs enough time for us to be invested but it can be a bit of a shortcut if we already care about both characters. Hence my Tam suggestion. Or another one I like is have Thom and Morgase reunite on screen, assuming no Thom and Moiraine romance. Again, all assuming Morgase survives and they want to include a romance I think it would be easier to sell it with a character we already know and like.
@@ReadingthePattern I don't know why, I always kinda had a soft spot for Tallanvor. I agree the pressuring wasn't cool, but nonetheless I still rooted for the guy (I always root for the guy or gal hopelessly in love, unless they get gross about it, and I don't think T did; others... yeah)
@@TheGeekyHippie I can understand that. He’s sort of the underdog and it makes sense to root for that. I don’t have any issue with Tallanvor really and the pressure wasn’t coming from him. I think Morgase’s reluctance, wherever it might really come from, was enough to stop me from rooting for him/them. And I can’t recall being really convinced of why Morgase changed her mind, maybe if that part were stronger it would also help.
I think you're spot on with your suggestions, though I did like the thought behind the Moiraine and Thom relationship, just two very wise people who understand each other, I do admit it was a bit weird mostly because of the perceived age difference and Thom's initial bias against Aes Sedai. Their casting a younger Thom would really help that romance and yes the guitar would help too!
One potential romance you kind of danced around is Logain and Siuan, both were gentled and given second chances of sorts, I can see them bonding for a while in a future season after their escape, maybe even having them be the first couple to bring Saidar and Saidin together. A bit off topic but that was one over powered thing for Nynaeve with her being able to heal stilling and gentling on her own. RJ made such a big deal about it being impossible to reverse I think it's something Raife could retcon as something that could only be accomplished with both sides of the One Power working together, and this would be a great "power" couple to help Nynaeve accomplish it.
The polyamory relationship with Rand is a pretty important one so I'm looking forward to your video on it, and I hope they give it time to develop properly and doesn't devolve into something petty.
The Mat Tuon relationship is probably the one I'm most worried about in the show, mostly because the two characters are such opposites. The whole carefree versus tyrant dynamic would be pretty easy to not spend enough time making us believe that the match would work in the end.
I actually like that about Moiraine and Thom as well. Reminds me a bit of Nynaeve and Lan where it’s two people recognizing a specific kind of competence in the other one and being impressed. I find that wholesome and appealing. If the show had wanted to expand Moiraine and Thom I would have been here for it, but I can also understand why they might not be able to invest what they would need to in it. It’s a very long payoff.
People keep giving me interesting suggestions for Logain romances, I’ve never thought of Siuan 🤔
They should just drop that awkward love "square" altogether. Let Elayne and Aviendha get together and let Min have Rand. Not that I like Rand/Min as a pairing, but the whole set up of Rand and his three women is unsolvable. I agree about everything you say about Nynaeve/Lan, Perrin/Faile and Mat/Tuon. Tuon needs to snap out of her Seanchan thinking if they want the audience to like her at all.
It seems important Rand is with the 3 women. His role is to impregnate both Aviendah and Elayne which he does in a very quick order. Min is I think his true love and RJ has her remain with him to the end. I always thought Elayne's fascination with Rand is because he was destined to die at the last battle.
With this review I realised that there is a lot of domestic violence in the books and it is written in a way that seems accepted. And while that might be reality in the real world situations, I think that if domestic violence (or other abuse) is shown, it should be written in a way that it is not acceptable way to treat people. If one of the characters were to spank/hit their partners, I think the partner should clearly show his/her resentment and then let the character grow.
I've resented the treatment the Wise ones, the Aes Sedai and the Windtalkers treat the novices. This constant 'switching' the girls is overly done and I'm amazed RJ's wife didn't try to stop it. I find it disgusting
Can I have more of Dena and Thom onscreen?
Perhaps the character Dana who appears in season 1 is essentially the same character as Dena and we will? Certainly if they are not going to cut that whole thing seeing more of her would make sense.
I would like that it gives me more time to like her so I'll be heartbroken when she dies.
In my opinion, fandom's there are two big problems with the Faile/Perrin romance. First, the Faile capture plot. It went on forever. If this is retained in the series, I think at most, the plot will take up half a season. That will help. Second, many are uncomfortable with the times Perrin spanks Faile and other instances when he uses force against her. I think the show will not have Perrin spank her or otherwise use his strength against her in a way that would resemblance physical abuse. I could see them having Perrin pick up Faile to prevent her from trying to physically attack Berelain. To me that is not an example of abuse.
Gawyn leaving with Min, Leane, Siuan would be a nice change. I like it. It would get rid of Gawyn believing what some random peddler said about Rand killing Morgase.
I would balefire Thom and Moiraine relationship and Morgase and Tallanvor. I think it would be best to have Rahvin kill Morgase.
I would 100% cut the Mat/Tylin relationship.
But I would keep Siuan and Gareth. If you cut Androl/Pevera, then make Logain double bonded with Gabrielle. Personally, I hope they keep Pevera/Androl while also expanding Logain's role. I think the Black Tower is big enough to have both Androl and an expanded Logain.
BTW, I like the new avatar.
I think you’re right about Perrin and Faile and that’s why I say relatively easy changes will make it easier to see the good that is there.
I think Gawyn’s hatred of Rand could end up dropped. My guess is they won’t interact in season 1 so it wouldn’t have much impact if they don’t know each other. Also wouldn’t surprise me if Morgase is killed by Rahvin but I wouldn’t mind if they keep her storyline with some changes.
And I’d love it if you’re right about both expanded Logain and keeping Androl/Pevara, I would enjoy both if possible.
Thank you on the avatar!
Mat and Tylin don't have a relationship. Tylin rapes and abuses him. Mat gets some Stockholm syndrome type feelings, but it's definitely not a relationship, that requires mutual consent, which they never had.
I think they should keep it Mat being abused, because it gives Mat excellent cover (he gets really underestimated), because it stops Mat from becoming Mary Sue and because men as victims of rape/abuse are too rarely shown. It would be good representation, but it definitely needs to be handled better. It gets a bit swept under the rug.
The problem with Faile isn't as much Perrin's occasional (twice, I think...) physical violence towards Faile, as much as her constant psychological abuse of Perrin.
Tuon mostly gets no pass about slavery for her cultural differences, why should Faile?
WOT was written in different times. Mat/Tylin was totally written as comedy, and he did think fondly of her even several books later, till the last Battle.
@@ChristmasLore Mat locks and bars the door of his bedroom because he's afraid of Tylin, and is unable to even close his eyes, much less sleep. She literally starves him and holds a knife to his throat when he tries to get away from her. Afterwards "Mat put a hand over his eyes and tried very hard not to weep". And when he's told they must stay another week he grows frantic, feels strangled and makes it clear he wants out of Ebou Dar. "Moghedian and Tylin. Of the two, he would rather confront Moghedien. At least he had some protection against Moghedien" "In another minute, he was afraid, he might just start crying". When talking to Elayne he says: "That woman won't take no for an answer; I say no and she laughs at me. She's starved me, bullied me " Despite feeling overwhelmed with shame, he does confirm to Elayne that he wants her to help him get out of the situation. Mat makes it clear he does not want to be with Tylin, he's desperate to escape and he also mentions that she jumped him while he was still severely injured. While he does express fondness for Tylin later, it's very clear he did not want to be stuck in that situation. And he later tells Tuon very clearly that if she treats him like a toy, he will leave, because he won't stand for it. Consider the Mat/Tylin situation with their genders swapped and ask yourself, is that funny? Because a lot of us who actually read them over 20 years ago, didn't think it was funny back then either.
@@chriszorander9333 , he's never "starved", he just can't eat at the palace, but he's never prisoner in said palace.
The barricading can be read as comical and theatrical.
The weeping might be from shame, the part he truly hates about the relationship: being viewed* as a toy ( that's what bothers him, the fact that the son, the servants, the whole town knows. He never truly considers leaving the Palace, and even comes up with excuses why he shouldn't).
It's all open to personal interpretation, though.
It's not about if I found this kind of thing funny back then or now (I don't), but relating to the times it was written. Awareness to some topics was simply not a thing.
It wasn't.
I’m a big fan of Tuon and hope they expand her role in the series. Dig the idea of Tam and Morgase together in place of Tallanvor.
I think that Gareth and suan interaction you want to cut is probably important.
You have to remember that for the first time in probably decades he was a man who went from having a lot of work in the capital to being put out to pasture. And for the 1st time in probably months he had an excuse to leave and manmer and had the making of an adventure. Some of it became a game and some oaths he felt were to great to be broken so easy.
And its not improbable to think that a bunch of Aes sedai can act without her. They were always built up to be highly competent, as far as the world was concerned anyway.
As for the spanking that seemed to be the go to punishment in that world. It showed that this once most powerful person in their known society threw a tantrum along with the boots and got treated accordingly.
Great video! I would miss the love parallelogram! That and the veins of gold... You are right that the relationships don't have enough screen time to develop the way they are depicted... Egwene and Gawyn...ugh... I fell in love in a dream... "Do you know he has a real hatred of your childhood friend without any evidence?" And you are ok with that? Her character could use some sandpaper to cleanup some of the rough spots... At times her flaws are near unforgivable... I don't know if she has time to develop a loving relationship as she schools the Aes Sedai into some functioning group...
As a general note... there is a fair amount of sexual desire shaming throughout the books mostly because of the POV characters are mostly from a conservative culture... There is a decided lack of passion between these pairings... when do we get the "moment" when we know there is a love bond... Nynaeve has a conversation with Lan and we are supposed to get the Passion? I know we get a moment between them where Lan kisses Nynaeve without permission while she struggles against him until she melts... As a fantasy, many people might find that fun... We would all like to make our lovers melt from a kiss or receive a kiss like that...but someone might scream bloody murder about that trope being portrayed in TV today...
Oh well, keep up the great content. I enjoy the content you provide!
That book just went on and on. Barelalon( sp), was just jealous. But ultimately, she tried to help.
Thom and Morrian: I love them both individually but hate them as a couple. Mostly because no true ground work was laid for their relationship. The groundwork was laid for them to respect and accept each other but not to love each other. It almost felt like Jordan didn't know how to rescue her without a love letter
I totally agree, love them individually but no ground work. If the show had wanted to go in the direction of spending more time to build that up I would have been totally fine with it, but my guess is they’re not. And I can understand why, they’d have to start laying the groundwork in season 1 for something that at best would pay off many seasons later.
My only issue here is that I really enjoyed Gareth and Siuan.I think he sees her right from the beginning and his holding her to her promise is simply because he wants to stay with her and knows she has never felt real security and boundaries since leaving home.
I wanted to like them, because there are things I enjoy but a lot of the execution failed for me. It think it could be salvageable. But it might depend what they do with Moiraine and Siuan, I’d rather have whatever they can do with that romance if I were to choose.
Gawain could of stayed with Elida to cover his love for Egwaine
More time for Elayne and Rand to spend together. She disappears for FIVE BOOKS.
One thing I'd like to see is more flings and breakups. Like this they smiled at each other once 5 books ago thing and now they are getting married has to go. It's okay for a relationship to last a season or two and then they break up.
I agree with this for sure! I’d love to see that happen, it’s far more realistic. I’ll discuss that possibility in the video about Rand’s relationships, but there are other possibilities as well, including maybe having Mat have another romance (that doesn’t involve sexual assault or attempted murder).
I don’t like Tuon but I do like her relationship with Mat
if they dont delete bryne siuan, we riot
I'm with ya!
Where is the petition!
Nyneve is a strong ass woman. Impetuous, but strong.
The answer for Rands relationships is easy but will make the fans mad. Let all but one survive (I would say Elyane because that one is the longer term one). Problem solved GOT style.
I'm in complete agreement regarding Morghase. Balefire the role along with the other minor romances. Hopefully these characters will be eliminated all together
Balefired! 😂
This was one of the best videos on what should change for the adaptation I've seen. The only romance that needs to go is Matt and Tylin. That is the one thing I'm confident will be cut from the show if they make it that far.
Thank you! So Mat and Tylin is one I opted not to talk about in this video because it didn't quite fit the format. I'm not entirely sure I want to consider what they have a "romance" though I can see an argument that it sort of becomes one. I'm potentially in favor of it being kept in the show if it is clear that it is not a romance, Mat wasn't playing hard to get, and Tylin did assault him. It would make for an important conversation but they have to get the tone and the narrative just right so it is very tricky and if they can't do that, then they should probably cut it.
I also didn’t like it. But I don’t think the adaptation will need to show the ripple effects of a world where women run everything. Though I don’t want lame excuses for men’s behavior, like see it’s not men it’s just power.
I agree, I thought the Mat and Tylin "relationship" was pretty dark and unnecessary at first, but later in thinking about all the assaults in the books, it adds balance to their scope, and I think it would be interesting to see if they bring the whole Stockholm syndrome and domestic violence awareness to the screen. On another note, it was one of those near death situations where Mat was lucky enough to be able to work his way out of just in time also, adding another layer to his incredible story.
@@anydaynow01 agreed, there is value in it if it can be treated with sensitivity
@@anydaynow01 I totally agree, it's why I would like that storyline to be kept. Imo, it's a topic that should be addressed, and I like that it's actually from a "reverse" position as it's usually seen...
100%
the 3 women in rands life should be sequential rather than concurrent, it really is this way in the books til the women work it out, if elayne and avi work things out before then so be it
That’s definitely one possibility I’ll discuss in my upcoming video
Come on. Rand has travelling. That makes it so easy to fix the time apart problem. Re Tuon, leave as is. If GoT teaches us anything is that if we want the show to be popular, we should not shy away from "problematic" elements. Otherwise we end up with a bland/safe product.
I think traveling might be a way to address the poly relationship and I’ll cover that in an upcoming video. I definitely don’t want to take out everything problematic but it’s a question of how to handle it. For instance, if a woman hitting a man or a man spanking a woman is played for laughs, not interested. I think Tuon should be essentially as she is but with a little more character evolution, which she might have gotten in the outrigger novels if we had ever gotten them.
HOW to adapt?
(1) DO NOT HIRE THE GUYS THAT WROTE _GAME OF THRONES._
😊😊😊
Yeah that’s a good start!
@@ReadingthePattern >>> 😄😄😄
I definitely wouldn't mind if Faile was cut altogether. ;-)
I just want Elayne x Aviendha. Everything's already in place, they just need a gentle push.
Bisexuals know these problems
So what's with all the negativity over _spanking?_ 😉
No negativity over consensual spanking. People can have at it in that case 😉
Pretty sure its just going to be whatever attractive character runs into another attractive characters and having sex. Most likely one solid sex scene per episode.
faile freaking sucks bro