One of my frequent wingmen tried a similar product from another company. He is an experienced sim pilot and big F-16 fan and wanted the full experience. His conclusions were the same as yours. It was just too hard to get used to. He found that on long missions his hand got tired in a way that never happened with other sticks. After using the pressure stick for a week, he reverted back to his old stick. Pressure sticks are for a very niche customer; certainly not for everyone. This product does look like good quality and good value though, so good on Winwing for putting it out there even if it may have limited appeal.
I wonder if your wingman was referring to the Realsimulator FSSB Lighting. I have the older version where the stick did not move at all and it indeed was very discomforting on long missions coz I was constantly pushing and pulling against a static stick. They apparently introduced a newer version with some deflection similar to the Wingwing one (and in their words, the way the Viper stick works IRL), but I don’t think I’d ever want to go back to a pressure stick. I agree it’s very niche and adds to the immersion of flying a Viper but it’s not flyable out of the box, requiring a ton of pressure / displacement tweaking for every module/sim. I guess it’s for die hard Viper drivers mostly, especially those who fly in VR.
@@ilyushka00 The one I have is the FSSB-R3 Lighting (also from RealSimulator) that if it has a small movement response and I find it to a certain extent rested and intuitive, it is true, that maybe it is a little more demanding if you are making turns frantically, but it depends more on the joysticks that were used before, if they were soft displacement it is more noticeable, If you used a hard scroll one (my favorites), you notice less of the difference or even less to bring it to its maximum response.
5:37 actually similar sentiments were expressed by a real Hornet pilot on exchange with the USAF. It took him quite some time to get used to force sensing flight stick in the Viper. And although he preferred the HOTAS management and functionalities in the Viper which is more intuitive than the Hornet, said that he still preferred the center stick. It just takes lots of practice, and retraining muscle memory which arguably is the hardest part.
Before the f16 became a full production plane. The stick used to not move at all. The test pilots actually said it was very hard to get around. Hence why they added small movements to the stick
As far as the barrier of learning, it takes a little getting use to, but what it probably is is that you need to fine tune the pressure settings for your personal use. The thing about an FSSB is that it has so many settings that you can change that matter a ton when it comes to getting that perfect feeling. And each change affects it a lot more than a traditional joystick. It could also be your curves and dead zones within DCS for that stick specifically. I know that with my Realsimulator R3L it took a lot of fine tuning in the software and in DCS. I have over a decade of experience and knowledge with FSSBs. So, if you have questions or need help, I'd be happy to assist. Definitely a great review! Keep up the good work!
I definitely agree. There's too few videos out there that help people with configuring settings and software for flight peripherals. It's nice when the flight sim community go out of their way to help others and also provide great gear reviews.
Everyone, please remember an Air Force pilot spends 10 to 20 hours or more per week for 2 years learning and training in just one type of airframe. You become part of the aircraft and the aircraft becomes part of you. Unless you are willing to put that much time in using the Winwing Orion 2 MFSSB Force Sensing F-16 stick you may want to think twice before you get one.
Agree 100% with this. As an owner of the standard Orion 2 base, it is perfect for flying all my fixed wing modules (even have it side mounted). But, as I kick around the idea of getting into multiplayer, I like the idea of flying the F16 more and maybe getting the MFSSB base with the F16 throttle on a second Orion 2 throttle base making it easier to swap. Just don't tell my wife how much this costs 😜
I've heard fighter pilots hate the F-16 stick. Originally it didn't move at all, but pilots kept hurting their hands using it so now it moves something like 1/4 of an inch. Wild
@g-locmedia yeap....Some friends were telling me not to buy it its Chinese, but after they saw the quality of the stick and throttle, they didn't believe it. How good is it
@@PambosZeniouYes I ‘ve asked some of sim players in China, cuz I am from there….They said the products from Winwing basically meet the requirements from China, where u have to cost double of the prices to get an exotic hottas in China, which is bit of unfair for us, especially having quite a lot of players over here, so that says, it is a market for sure….So Winwing stepping out, and to be honest we are surprised by the quality they’ve achieved as well😂, never anticipate that, they are getting better
I just received this stick and it is awesome. Movement is calculated in its use, the hall sensors are still in place. In the software you can chose between force+movement, force only and realistic. So far I am loving it. I am just getting into fighters (mostly fly A10 and AH64 DCS) so the learning curve was not that big a deal for me but I am still tweaking. My one issue with the stick is the obvious play at the center, there is about 1/2mm of movement before contacting the pressure sensors and it is noticeable.
@@ChipDavis160I’ve also tried Helio and A10 as well, it’s actually quite good tbh with the MFSSB, thought that would be a bit strange before I actually tried it, but turns out it is great 😊
Having owned both the Winwing MFSSB and the RealSimulator FSSB R3L MKII "Ultra", the latter is a far superior product and more true to how the actual F16 SSC works. I ended up selling my WinWing MFSSB after trying out the RealSimulator SSC. Absolutely love the R3L MKII!
For anyone interested Virpil have just opened a UK distribution centre. Shipping is now much cheaper, as an example it was £15 instead of £50 ish when I tried it yesterday, and they currently have a 10% sale on everything and 20% on the Prime Grips and the CM3 and Warbird D bases, so the most recent stuff. Expensive but if you’re considering an upgrade definitely skip the warthog and go straight for this level. Sale is till the end of the month. I have no affiliation, just a satisfied stick and throttle owner.
@@g-locmedia Alpha Prime on a 200 extension with a CM3 base and a CM3 throttle. I built some custom extra long MonsterTech style desk mounts to accommodate the extension as I don’t have room for a rig. I really like the look of your triple screen setup, but I need to replace the living room TV first, and probably move house to fit them in, so can probably cross that off my list. I might just go for a large single, 48” maybe, or 3 x 32” triples.
@@doifeellucky I used to have triple 32s. Check one of my earlier videos and you can see what it looks like. I’ve been lusting after a set of virpil rudders for a while. Im close to pulling the trigger.
i bought the Winwing Orion 2 f18 throttle and the f16 stick fx version !! 8 months ago and its great !! i can up grade it to MFSSB but it is not easy as it looks !!
The Warthog is now pretty much regarded as an overpriced, under-engineered stick with all of the much better sticks on the market. It's the 'Wal-mart' stick. Thrustmaster no longer makes anything worth buying, other than maybe the T16000, but I'd get a VKB Gladiator NXT long before a TM stick. The comparison should be to a VKB or Virpil stick.
Using the X-65F HOTAS for 12 years now. I really like the force sensor in that one. Even after 12 years it is super precise. You can adjust the force you have to use. Good to finally see other brands making a HOTAS with force sensor. Maybe time to update after 12 years.
@@g-locmediaYeah hard to let go. With 4x 47 programmable buttons and enough usable axis’s. There was a time it was hard to get drivers working on Windows, but miraculously Windows 11 recognized it right away. And the old Saitek software is still working. I can imagine it is hard to get used to the rigid flight stick. For me a flappy stick would be a learning curve.
Thanks for the vid, have been interested in the MFSSB base as I have been spending more time in the F16. I have the Winwing Orion 2 HOTAS MAX set and love it! SimAppPro has been getting many updates over the last couple months since the F15E release. I primarily fly the F18 and the standard F16EX stick has worked fantastically. One of the best and underrated features of Winwings F16EX stick are the shaker motors! You know how many times I have accidently left the speed brakes on and it was the vibration that queued me to turn off? More times than I would like to admit lol. Also, when tunnel visioned, and I start to pull a little too much AoA and the stick gives a slight vibration as an indicator saving me crucial energy. Winwing has absolutely shattered long held stereotypes regarding Chinese quality standards. Winwing products are beautifully engineered with unprecedented quality!
I've had an FSSB-R3 Lighting from RealSimulator (a company whose main market is to make flight simulators for different Armed Forces around the world) for four years now. I'm also using the throttle system of the HOTAS Cougar (thanks to another RealSimulator device, TUSBA). I understand that there are people who are not accustomed to Force control systems, who either hate them or love them intensely. I can only say that I will never use a scrolling joystick/flight stick again. Flight precision, being able to control the force needed for each direction vector so that everyone responds equally regardless of whether you exert the force towards you or from you and the flight stick is on one side, on the other or in the center. Being able to change the necessary force profiles in a second to switch between the response needed for flight, ground attack, much more controlled refueling or landing... It's priceless. And no one who hasn't tried the force controls, but has used the displacement controls, can even imagine what it becomes for the various phases of a flight or combat. I've been playing in air or space simulators since the days of the Spectrum 48 and 128, later on PC with all kinds of cheaper or more expensive control systems and liquidating soft Joysticks... and even the most resistant with time and hundreds or thousands of hours of use. And the force controls are another world.
@@g-locmedia The thing about hating them comes because there are people who don't get used to the slight feedback they have (the main problem of F-16 pilots is that at the beginning they didn't have even the slightest feedback of what they were doing, but over time that was corrected. In our case of gamers, the movement of the joystick gives us the feeling that we are really feeding the movement of the device. There are joysticks, which have always been softer, harder, less responsive and a lot more and much more sensitive and accurate. Personally, I've always liked them a bit hard but sensitive and precise (the money I've spent on joysticks, as some of them broke or irretrievably misadjusted, is something I prefer not to calculate). So in a way, maybe I've always been more prepared for the force control ones. But I have friends, who are used to huge displacements that can't handle the feeling. And in fact, a lot of people tend to do that. So I understand that for someone with very wide movements in the joystick movement, it can be frustrating to feel the beep that you have reached the maximum force input. Like for others, it's an incredible world. I also understand that the price of these systems is relatively large, so trying it out and not liking it must be awful, while in scrolling joysticks, you have them at all prices. Which makes it easier to get in and get used to the type of joystick you want, while one of the force joysticks is another leap into the void. I would almost advise that if you have the opportunity, you try one from a friend, although if you don't, it's one more leap for confidence in the way you ride and the work to get used to. Also apart from friends who can't even see it, I have some who tell me everything (and not good) because after having tried mine, He can't go back to his own. That said, these control systems are really personal, and I would advise everyone to try them out, before deciding whether to take the leap unless you are convinced that you are going to do it. For my part, as I said, I will never be able to get the taste of a scrolling one again, especially those that I never liked, which were those that you could move in their entirety with one finger... but also those I used to cherish.
@@Timberjac I sadly haven't seen a single pilot that was competitive with these sticks in any flight or space game though. I would go so far as to say no SATAL in DCS was ever won by someone using this tech - could you point out some famous performance wins in competitive combat? The reason those sticks were made in real life was to be able to resist more G's while freeing up the center for panels / MFD's. We don't need to resist G's in the home cockpits though... and we do lose a lot of precision from finger flying, as the center section feels soulless and sloppy without cams, dampening or anything that makes sense. It would be really interesting to me to hear your opinion as to why we have that discrepancy of perceived skill vs. measurable real world skill in competitions and contests.
in the early days of the F-16, the stick was immovable, later after pilot feedback, they introduced a limited movement to help the pilots with the touch of the stick. I have the F-16-ex version with the rumble vibration. I recommend that for most people. I believe if you want the realism factor, you'll have to have the full 3D chair and the MFSSB version because sitting in a normal chair and using the Force feedback is sorta cool, but it would be best with a full motion 3D chair.
Thanks for the insight. Interesting the they introduced the movement in to the stick. Do you rate the rumble kit then? What option are there for adjusting the rumble?
@@g-locmedia Hey, it doesn't seem like you got an answer, I have had the shake kit for the f-16ex stick, and the new f-15EX with the vibration motors as well. It's a bit gimmicky, but it provides a cool feeling. The motors activate when you're going into a steep dive angle, whenever you drop bombs, when your wheels touch the ground or you turn sharply... all of that together, it really ties in the experience really well. It's not necessarily going to make you a better pilot, but I'd rather have it than not.
Hello, I have the rs fssb and i think pressure sticks are awesome. The real trick to mastering them is setting a curvature and deadzone that works for you ad than letting it come to you naturally. When you start thinking about how much pressure you´re putting on the stick and stuff like that it isn´t gonna work the way you want it to Anyway glad there is some compitition going on in the hotas making world.
@@txflyer82 For me it is and I'm using the flight stick that came with my old HOTAS Cougar (although it needs a reinforcement ring, just in case, because the metal used by Thrustmaster is weak and the pressure point that in the displacement point is exerted on the mechanism, in one of force is felt more precisely in the weak point of said joystick. I'm waiting to see if the RS take out one of the F-16's right-hand men or if they take out the F-35's, because the construction and materials used by RS are incredible (after all, their real business is to make combat simulation systems for various armed forces throughout the world, Gamer's products are an extra within the overall of their income statement).
this stick specifically is 1:1 with the real thing, except for the NWS/ARR Disconnect button. winwing has made it a 4 way hat instead of the single depressable button
1:35 your chassis is flexing and will throw off the force. Look at racing sim wheels where the top end stuff foes not flex at all because just that tiny amount of flex disrupts the feel of it ever so slightly.
Just saw that Winwing are having an up to 40% off sale on right now. I'm not affiliated with them in any way, just thought I'd give anyone the heads up in they are already in tyhe market for any Winwing products.
I have the Orion 2 paired with the Virpil throttle & the control panel 2 for DCS. I also have the VKB Gunfighter MK III base with Space Combat grip which I use for Star Citizen. I have to say I'm very impressed with the Orion 2's construction, particularly the base, solid & accurate construction, chunky & robust cams. From what I've seen so far you seem to have the Thrustmaster Warthog flight stick & have reviewed the Gunfighter MK III base. For DCS / flight sim I would def recommended the Orion 2 as an upgrade to the Thrustmaster, the quality and price point on the non-MFSSB Orion 2 is in a very good spot I think. Having the version with the additional buttons on the joystick / side mount of extra buttons, is helpful for UI interactions. I initially didn't buy the version with extra buttons, but ended up getting it separately. I haven't tried any of the Virpil sticks. The VKB GF Mk III works well for Star Citizen for me, because the base mechanism is less weighty / lighter & also the stick, which is good for the number and rapidity of direction changes with using the stick for aiming. In Star Citizen stick aiming is similar to FPS style.
Interesting, I am just starting my journey on sticks. I kind of of have my heart set on winwing just because of the quality. I mainly play star citizen and space sims though and I’ve read that the throttle isnt really that useful for SC and it’s better to go HOSAS. I was thinking of Orion 2 for the stick and a gladiator for the second stick. MarkHawk did you go through this when you were choosing. Any advice?
@@terryjlee1531Hello, I played Star Citizen with duel sticks (HOSAS) before playing DCS (HOTAS). The WinWing Orion 2 could work for Star citizen right stick, but I haven't tried it for SC myself. I use VKB Gladiator for right stick and NXT for left in SC.
The original F16 had absolutely no movement in the stick. But everyone compared about it. It was the #1 issue with all the pilots training to fly the F16. So they loosened it up so it would wable about 2° .
I’ve flown a Lockheed-made F35 sim.. They told me the stick costs $20k; it felt like this. Very little movement, unbelievable how easy and accurate it was to make the plane move with that stick though. I can see why they use sticks like this in fighters after using it. Pressure is faster than movement imo
@@g-locmedia Yeah for sure. They said they’ve had people bump it while getting out of the sim and it completely screws the sensors haha, they have to take it apart and replace stuff when that happens. I guess the sensitivity comes with a price. They said it was a 1:1 copy of the real stick + or - a few things I’m not sure if it was using Hall effect sensors for the movement or not. Part of me doubts that. Either way, interesting experience to say the least
Bit of a necro, but I have been looking at one of these pretty hard. I have been using a MUCH older Saitek X-65 (not a typo, not the 56) and it also uses a force sensing mechanism. It took a while to get used to the movement, but after a thousand or so hours, I almost can't be without it. I've primarily been in Elite Dangerous and the ability to make super fine control inputs was the best I have used. As a matter of fact, I'm actually really bummed at having to replace my X 65. Sadly, it keeps losing button connectivities, and it seems like every session leads to a new trip to the button configuration menu. But if you spend some time with the force sensing, maybe 80-100 hours, it begins to feel absolutely natural. Another trick I used was to put a silicone washer between the mount and the base when bolting it down. It allowed for just a little bit of movement at the stick as the washer compressed, and it was enough to help trick the brain into accepting the process.
The reason they did this is because the f16 originally had a pressure transducer in its stick, which pilots hated. So this is exactly on par with the real stick.
I have had one since launch and eventually got comfortable with it, but it took at least 20h and a lot of tweaking. Aside from just time in sim, I needed to physically mounted it at a slight forward angle (the f16 also has this and it helped a lot with ergonomics, especially for longer gaming sessions), spent a lot of time adjusting the centering tabs and settings, and even went as far as soldering the bearings that contact the centering metal tabs (these are carryover internals from the standard version, the bearing surface is not needed in the FSSB and I think these should have been solid from the factory as they have a small amount of backlash which translated to a loose center feeling with a larger dead zone needed. I soldered them to be solid and reinstalled with a much much improved centering feel). After the time and those adjustments it feels great and I'm about as proficient as I was with a center stick with a 200mm extension. for my own feelings, I think it handles better in a dog fight or acrobatics when you are making quick changes to direction, but a center stick with an extension seems to be easier to be more precise than the FSSB. Overall happy with it now, but it was a commitment and I'm not sure I'd call it better than a good center stick with an extension.
@@g-locmedia of course :) I didn't find too much info on the FSSB even after it's been out for the better part of a year, and always happy to help get info out.
This pressure-sensitive unit is very interesting, but the official page states that it cannot be assembled by the user because it requires technical skill to assemble. In other words, I think it's safe to assume that interchangeability with the cam mechanism will be lost. This is a problem. I'm just now starting to think about whether to turn the DIY modified X55 I'm used to into a Gladiator or an Orion 2, so this was very helpful. I believe that the appeal of these gimbal structures compared to ball joints such as the X55 is that there is a clear separation in the operating feel of the X and Y axes. If anything, the pressure-sensitive type is intended to reduce this, and I think there will be situations where you just want to operate the elevator, but the elevator operates diagonally and ends up rolling. What do real pilots think?
I’m just guessing, but with a pressure stick, I think you probably want to mount it so that you can rest your arm while using it, otherwise it will be uncomfortable. I fly the Winwing Viper 1 HOTAS (similar to this but not with force sensing) and it is absolutely fantastic. Winwing truly makes genius, well crafted and high quality products.
@@g-locmedia Yes, I believe it was designed with Star Citizen in mind. If that's not a issue, it has tonnes of buttons; very comfortable to grip for medium to large hands; and a few of features that really set apart. Features like the scroll wheel with a two stage button. Or, the dedicated mini stick. It has hall effect sensors on everything. I also really like the primary trigger assembly. For brevity, it's basically 5 buttons for your index finger. Outside of space sims, I think the Alpha Prime is a great option for people that aren't as concerned about simulating a specific aircraft yet still want a very high quality grip with some modern features and 32 buttons.
Why go for Thurstmaster throttle base when you can get Winwing F-16EX throttle and stick combo for 20$ more if you option extra shake kit. Idk whats going on in their head but Thrustmasters new throttle base is absurdly priced. 300$ just for the throttle quadrant WITHOUT any buttons??? If you want them, then its 529$. Mind you, you still have to get the stick and the base for it. Winwing F-16EX throttle gives you buttons for 4 planes. F-16, F-15, F-18 and A-10. Granted there are few for all so its not exactly many buttons per plane.
@@Kumyar Totally agree on this point Thrustmaster are deluded if they think that thier kit is at a good price point! They are riding on a wave they produced 20 years ago when they launched thier warthog products and they were the best at the time but they are literally 20 years out of date and the competition now make not only higher quality product but at Way better pricing levels. Thrustmasters Wave of "We are the Best!" crashed on the rocks 3 years ago when Virpil and WinWing entered the marketplace properly. The only thing WinWing have to get over is that some still think that Chinese means cheap and nasty but Chinese manufacturers can make the best products in the world but we ask them to make cheap for everything else so they do. WinWing are top of thier game at the moment they even fire/cancel contracts with thier suppliers if they think the buttons or switches will fail or are below thier high quality standards they have, plus unlike Thrustmaster they are continually listening to thier customers and changing and improving thier designs to keep thier product line up expanding and make sure it's giving thier customers what they want.
@@Kumyar what is absurd is to compare an online direct company from China to a global company with a normal customer service and eveything that goes with it. I had an issue with my orion 1 base. Never had feedback besides some parts to fix it myself! running a company is complicated
@@g-locmedia I currently own an Alpha Prime grip with WarBRD base, cm3 throttle, CP2 control panel, and a CP1 panel is on-order, along with several VPC mounts.
@@777Thibs your are in deep with virpil. That’s a good place to be. I own the control panel which I love. I have briefly tried a new of their other products and one thing I can say about virpil they put product quality first.
Great video! Nice looking stick. I'll stick with Virpil. I don't have luck dealing with Chinese companies warranty and I've not heard good things about Winwings service.
Virpil, Winwing and VKB are exotic and top-tier, and if choice wasn't an option, most would be happy with either. The only issue i have with Winwing, is the labeling on their devices, looks so garish and cheap. That of course is no reflection on its quality or value for money.
@@ridingwithbaz2736 Why would i spend all that money on Virpil Gear / Yokes and Throttles, to fumble around like a blind man in VR?, or use those prosthetic looking controllers, kinda going backwards, its not progressive?. PS: In my previous post, i actually was referring to the garish labeling on the Winwing products
@@davewills6121 No offesnse but once you get VR and see the diference it makes to the reality of the Flightsim experience there is no going back and if you go VR and have Virpil WinWing kit you usually have the funds to buy or build a decent sim pit or rig. Getting used to where every switch and button on your rig is happens quite fast if you fly daily, certainly faster than most think. So getting all that expensive but high quality Virpil/Winwing gear and combining it with VR Does give you the best experience. Adding VR certainly doesn't mean you lose anything or waste your money getting your Virpil kit it only adds to your realism.
I thought they originally used this in the first f-16s but changed it? I’ve seen several interviews of them talking about it? Maybe I mis understood and they found a middle ground
No, they didn't change it, been force sensing from the start. What they did do was to add a tiny bit of movement (like a quarter of an inch, IIRC) to provide haptics, after test pilots complained of the original stick configuration that was completely stationary and didn't move at all. But that's only to give feel indication of the stick being operated, all the control inputs still come from the force sensing alone.
The problem you have with the pressure controls exists between stick and chair: it's nothing to do with the hardware, every real F-16 pilot went through this same process and had this same issue. Especially the ones that flew other fighters for a long time and had to transition to F-16. It's perfectly normal, it just takes time.
I have the FSSB and I like it. But I can't do air to air refueling with it. Just can't get those fine controls. The Winwing stick isn't super realistic. The real F16 stick has something like 14kg force on the pitch up, and then somewhat smaller forces on the other movment. With roll right being the lowest with around 6kg. You can get the Realsimualtor stick that has all the realistic forces. But the the stick alone costs more than the full Winwing F16 HOTAS.
May I ask how you hold the stick? Because I connected the stick to the table, but the table is very light, when using MFSSB, the whole table will shake, and it is not stable, which will affect the experience. But I don't know how to fix it to the ground.
Great video. Got mine yesterday and realised I have a huge learning curve to master this. Winwing is nailing it. TM just feels last gen. All the software of all the brands is pretty crap IMHO.
Yeah I went Virpil cm2 and the difference from that and the TM was night and day so accurate. I kept the TM Warthog throttle though because it’s authentic. People who break their TM stuff just don’t know how to look after their stuff.
@@alexsp7086 I liked and enjoyed my TM stuff and thought it was well made. I still have the F18 grip as it just feels so good in the hand, might match it with a VKB base for fun. Friends have the Virpil and it is good stuff.
Just like the Saitek Pro Flight X65F on the whole people didn't like it, even F16 pilots didnt like force sensing that's why they engineered movement into the stick
Have you had any problems with it so far? I'm thinking between Virpil and WinWing. Suggestion: Should do a review on the virpil alpha prime and their throttle!
No problems so far. Unfortunately the only virpil gear I own is the control panel 2 which is excellent but I haven’t had any other experiences with any other virpil products.
@@g-locmedia Thanks for the response! Really wish virpil comes out with something like winwing and their F-16. If virpil doesnt by the end of 2024 I'm probably just going to go with WinWing.
I wouldn't recommend to use any thrustmaster grip with high load devices - be it FSSB or just "good" regular bases. The forces will snap the stem from the grip. It's just cheap die cast aluminium. Ask me how I know, after 3 hornet grips broke in the same place on a Virpil CM2 base. Your best bet is to sell the whole stick and buy a fitting one instead. They're all superior in terms of switch quality and availability of switches and axis anyway.
Out of curiosity, will you be covering the release of the VKB Gunfighter Mk IV and T-Rudder Mk V pedals? The MCG Ultimate grip is by far the best grip I've ever used, I'd be interested to see how you feel it stack's up to the equipment you have experienced. Great video's, subscribed for more!
@@g-locmedia did you have any luck with VKB? If not, is there a better contact point for me to reach you as I can re-box mine and send it to you as a loan for testing.
I am really interested in this. I am also wandering if the best experience would be pairing it with the Winwing Orion2 Throttle Base or pair it with the soon to be released Thrustmaster Viper TQS Mission Pack. Thanks for any information.
The Orion2 might be the better option if build quality is at the forefront of your decision. However if the like the idea of the chaff/flare button and the landing gear but don’t mind the plastic lighter finish then yea the TM would be the choice.
@@g-locmediaI'm also in the same situation he's @knowyourjoe8826, the Viper TQS pack Mission calls me insistently, and I think it's great, but on the other hand, I have the feeling that the old Throttle of my HOTAS Cougar (which now works thanks to the RS Tusba), is better built and made of better material (it feels like metal) than the plastic that you seem to have in your hand with the Viper TQS.
If you buy the MFSSB version, can you disable the force-sensing and use it like a traditional stick? Or is full disassembly and removal of the module required?
Can i remove the force feedback hardware? I can see myself changing aircraft (airbus) overtime and wonder if the force function / addon is limited to the f16 ?
Hi there, Just a question. If you do have the MFSSB version and you don't like it, can you turn it off and use it as a normal stick? Okay you've thrown a couple of hundred euros down the drain but is it possible??
@@g-locmedia okay!!! Actually its too late as it should be arriving in a couple of days but im sure i can get around it or just get used to it... Thanks for the answer Sir.
I got this and a gladiator next evo for my left stick and the vkb honestly feels like a peice of trash compared to the winwing it's so good. I got the normal spring and cam version.
you see all you need is this WW MFSSB side mounted & the VPforce RHINO ffb base centre mounted & there's no aircraft you can't emulate the controls of.
@@g-locmedia Oh yeah, like 9Nm torque it's got a good feel to it, absolute best stick base I've felt like butter smooth no cogging. 9Nm is tuff as but some of the diy kits using the largest motors are like 24Nm!
@@g-locmedia I own one, early serial number so I've had it for a little while now, it's game changing. I fly GA, wabirds (il2) jets & heli's (dcs) it's revolutionary imo for heli flight, having actual force trim in heli is awesome, stick goes 'limp' then 'tight' again in new pos. GA, warbirds get the most from the ffb effects VPforce has a telem app for DCS (msfs be added later) so you can add effects to any module, on top of the native if the module has any, f-14 has best. But I've found best thing about ffb base is changing the feel of the base, even the length of throw/asymmetric throw to suit each aircraft without going into the base i.e. changing springs, cams clutches etc. you just change profile in software & each aircraft can feel like it 'should' or how you want it to feel, no mess no fuss just a profile change. The Rhino is awesome but so is Walmis the guy behind it, really involved with community, friendly, helpful, can perform black magic with ffb devices 😆. Check out the VPforce discord if you're not there already m8. Oh yeah he has adapters so it will work with "any" grip i.e. Virpil/TM *native VKB, Winwing he has adapters for.
I love the 65F, been using it since it was released so over 10 years. I am a hardcore DCS player and X65f didn't fail me once. Saitek X65f is a force based Kgf hotas. Now I am looking to upgrade for another force sensing, wingwing. Is it possible to have pressure profiles?
REAL SIMULATOR fait beaucoup mieux, avec la même technologie, et des versions du stick pour les simulateurs pro. Le stick de Réal Simulator est mieux sur la totalité des points, de la fabrication. aux matériaux. Par contre, il est un petit peu plus cher mais c'est ce qui se rapproche le plus du véritable F16 il équipe les simulateurs pour les véritables pilotes de chasses. Il existe deux version et une autre version a plus de 3000€...mais la base elle coute en gros 500€ me semble, pour les véritables amateurs du F16 y'a encore mieux que WinWing
Yikes, plastic rubbish compared to the Warthog F-16 stick. But I liked your sex wording. Its a F-Sexteen and uses around sex kilograms pressure. Noice.
From the premium sticks warthog is the worst my friend. If you will open it you will see that the gimbal which is doing all the job is plastic. All the rest they have the inside of the base full metal. I have warthog and virpil. We talk about day and night deference.
One of my frequent wingmen tried a similar product from another company. He is an experienced sim pilot and big F-16 fan and wanted the full experience. His conclusions were the same as yours. It was just too hard to get used to. He found that on long missions his hand got tired in a way that never happened with other sticks. After using the pressure stick for a week, he reverted back to his old stick. Pressure sticks are for a very niche customer; certainly not for everyone. This product does look like good quality and good value though, so good on Winwing for putting it out there even if it may have limited appeal.
Yea winwing have done a great job. So I’m not the only one feeling like this about this stick.
I wonder if your wingman was referring to the Realsimulator FSSB Lighting. I have the older version where the stick did not move at all and it indeed was very discomforting on long missions coz I was constantly pushing and pulling against a static stick. They apparently introduced a newer version with some deflection similar to the Wingwing one (and in their words, the way the Viper stick works IRL), but I don’t think I’d ever want to go back to a pressure stick.
I agree it’s very niche and adds to the immersion of flying a Viper but it’s not flyable out of the box, requiring a ton of pressure / displacement tweaking for every module/sim. I guess it’s for die hard Viper drivers mostly, especially those who fly in VR.
@@ilyushka00 The one I have is the FSSB-R3 Lighting (also from RealSimulator) that if it has a small movement response and I find it to a certain extent rested and intuitive, it is true, that maybe it is a little more demanding if you are making turns frantically, but it depends more on the joysticks that were used before, if they were soft displacement it is more noticeable, If you used a hard scroll one (my favorites), you notice less of the difference or even less to bring it to its maximum response.
5:37 actually similar sentiments were expressed by a real Hornet pilot on exchange with the USAF. It took him quite some time to get used to force sensing flight stick in the Viper. And although he preferred the HOTAS management and functionalities in the Viper which is more intuitive than the Hornet, said that he still preferred the center stick. It just takes lots of practice, and retraining muscle memory which arguably is the hardest part.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Before the f16 became a full production plane. The stick used to not move at all. The test pilots actually said it was very hard to get around. Hence why they added small movements to the stick
Thanks for the insight on that.
As far as the barrier of learning, it takes a little getting use to, but what it probably is is that you need to fine tune the pressure settings for your personal use.
The thing about an FSSB is that it has so many settings that you can change that matter a ton when it comes to getting that perfect feeling. And each change affects it a lot more than a traditional joystick.
It could also be your curves and dead zones within DCS for that stick specifically. I know that with my Realsimulator R3L it took a lot of fine tuning in the software and in DCS.
I have over a decade of experience and knowledge with FSSBs. So, if you have questions or need help, I'd be happy to assist.
Definitely a great review! Keep up the good work!
Thanks so much for the insight. Information like that is gear for anyone thinking of pulling the trigger on one of these.
I definitely agree. There's too few videos out there that help people with configuring settings and software for flight peripherals. It's nice when the flight sim community go out of their way to help others and also provide great gear reviews.
Everyone, please remember an Air Force pilot spends 10 to 20 hours or more per week for 2 years learning and training in just one type of airframe. You become part of the aircraft and the aircraft becomes part of you. Unless you are willing to put that much time in using the Winwing Orion 2 MFSSB Force Sensing F-16 stick you may want to think twice before you get one.
Good advice for anyone thinking of purchasing.
Agree 100% with this. As an owner of the standard Orion 2 base, it is perfect for flying all my fixed wing modules (even have it side mounted).
But, as I kick around the idea of getting into multiplayer, I like the idea of flying the F16 more and maybe getting the MFSSB base with the F16 throttle on a second Orion 2 throttle base making it easier to swap. Just don't tell my wife how much this costs 😜
Got this it feels exactly the same as the real f22 as well as the f16 stick (both very similar) and build quality actually feels better in my opinion
I've heard fighter pilots hate the F-16 stick. Originally it didn't move at all, but pilots kept hurting their hands using it so now it moves something like 1/4 of an inch. Wild
Super interesting. I've heard similar stories.
I bought Orion 2 a couple of months ago, and I can say only one thing......These Hotas is a beast.
They certainly are tanks. Did you get the stick and the throttle?
@g-locmedia yeap....Some friends were telling me not to buy it its Chinese, but after they saw the quality of the stick and throttle, they didn't believe it. How good is it
@@PambosZeniouYes I ‘ve asked some of sim players in China, cuz I am from there….They said the products from Winwing basically meet the requirements from China, where u have to cost double of the prices to get an exotic hottas in China, which is bit of unfair for us, especially having quite a lot of players over here, so that says, it is a market for sure….So Winwing stepping out, and to be honest we are surprised by the quality they’ve achieved as well😂, never anticipate that, they are getting better
I just received this stick and it is awesome. Movement is calculated in its use, the hall sensors are still in place. In the software you can chose between force+movement, force only and realistic. So far I am loving it. I am just getting into fighters (mostly fly A10 and AH64 DCS) so the learning curve was not that big a deal for me but I am still tweaking. My one issue with the stick is the obvious play at the center, there is about 1/2mm of movement before contacting the pressure sensors and it is noticeable.
Are you using the MFSSB with force only?
@@g-locmedia No, I am using force+ motion, seems to give the best mix of performance.
@@ChipDavis160I’ve also tried Helio and A10 as well, it’s actually quite good tbh with the MFSSB, thought that would be a bit strange before I actually tried it, but turns out it is great 😊
Having owned both the Winwing MFSSB and the RealSimulator FSSB R3L MKII "Ultra", the latter is a far superior product and more true to how the actual F16 SSC works. I ended up selling my WinWing MFSSB after trying out the RealSimulator SSC. Absolutely love the R3L MKII!
I'll have a look at that stick. Thanks
For anyone interested Virpil have just opened a UK distribution centre. Shipping is now much cheaper, as an example it was £15 instead of £50 ish when I tried it yesterday, and they currently have a 10% sale on everything and 20% on the Prime Grips and the CM3 and Warbird D bases, so the most recent stuff. Expensive but if you’re considering an upgrade definitely skip the warthog and go straight for this level. Sale is till the end of the month. I have no affiliation, just a satisfied stick and throttle owner.
Thanks for highlighting the virpil sake. I’m sure there’s a few Brit’s watch tot he channel. What virpil gear do you have?
@@g-locmedia Alpha Prime on a 200 extension with a CM3 base and a CM3 throttle. I built some custom extra long MonsterTech style desk mounts to accommodate the extension as I don’t have room for a rig.
I really like the look of your triple screen setup, but I need to replace the living room TV first, and probably move house to fit them in, so can probably cross that off my list. I might just go for a large single, 48” maybe, or 3 x 32” triples.
@@doifeellucky I used to have triple 32s. Check one of my earlier videos and you can see what it looks like. I’ve been lusting after a set of virpil rudders for a while. Im close to pulling the trigger.
ordered mine one week ago and got it today. couldnt imagine how much difference it makes.... awesome stick
Enjoy it
i bought the Winwing Orion 2 f18 throttle and the f16 stick fx version !! 8 months ago and its great !!
i can up grade it to MFSSB but it is not easy as it looks !!
Sound like a great setup. Are you mainly DCS?
@@g-locmedia yes just DCS..
The Warthog is now pretty much regarded as an overpriced, under-engineered stick with all of the much better sticks on the market. It's the 'Wal-mart' stick. Thrustmaster no longer makes anything worth buying, other than maybe the T16000, but I'd get a VKB Gladiator NXT long before a TM stick. The comparison should be to a VKB or Virpil stick.
Yeaa completely wrong
Thrustmaster f18 grip is fantastic.
@@NLarsen1989 A grip has nothing to do with the quality of the stick. The Warthog HOTAS is completely obsolete, especially compared now to Winwing.
@valvr829 Not wrong at all. Winwing blows it out of the water now too, and for a better price
@@karlhungus545 whatever lad, virpil warbrd-d base with TM f18 grip is fantastic.
Using the X-65F HOTAS for 12 years now. I really like the force sensor in that one. Even after 12 years it is super precise. You can adjust the force you have to use. Good to finally see other brands making a HOTAS with force sensor. Maybe time to update after 12 years.
Wow its lasted that long?
@@g-locmediaYeah hard to let go. With 4x 47 programmable buttons and enough usable axis’s. There was a time it was hard to get drivers working on Windows, but miraculously Windows 11 recognized it right away. And the old Saitek software is still working.
I can imagine it is hard to get used to the rigid flight stick. For me a flappy stick would be a learning curve.
Thanks for the vid, have been interested in the MFSSB base as I have been spending more time in the F16.
I have the Winwing Orion 2 HOTAS MAX set and love it! SimAppPro has been getting many updates over the last couple months since the F15E release.
I primarily fly the F18 and the standard F16EX stick has worked fantastically. One of the best and underrated features of Winwings F16EX stick are the shaker motors!
You know how many times I have accidently left the speed brakes on and it was the vibration that queued me to turn off? More times than I would like to admit lol.
Also, when tunnel visioned, and I start to pull a little too much AoA and the stick gives a slight vibration as an indicator saving me crucial energy.
Winwing has absolutely shattered long held stereotypes regarding Chinese quality standards. Winwing products are beautifully engineered with unprecedented quality!
I have to agree em the winwing stuff is very good quality. They are knocking it out of the park.
I've had an FSSB-R3 Lighting from RealSimulator (a company whose main market is to make flight simulators for different Armed Forces around the world) for four years now. I'm also using the throttle system of the HOTAS Cougar (thanks to another RealSimulator device, TUSBA).
I understand that there are people who are not accustomed to Force control systems, who either hate them or love them intensely. I can only say that I will never use a scrolling joystick/flight stick again.
Flight precision, being able to control the force needed for each direction vector so that everyone responds equally regardless of whether you exert the force towards you or from you and the flight stick is on one side, on the other or in the center. Being able to change the necessary force profiles in a second to switch between the response needed for flight, ground attack, much more controlled refueling or landing... It's priceless.
And no one who hasn't tried the force controls, but has used the displacement controls, can even imagine what it becomes for the various phases of a flight or combat. I've been playing in air or space simulators since the days of the Spectrum 48 and 128, later on PC with all kinds of cheaper or more expensive control systems and liquidating soft Joysticks... and even the most resistant with time and hundreds or thousands of hours of use. And the force controls are another world.
Thanks for the insight. I guess you either hat them or love them. If your looking for the full F-16 experience I guess its more valuable.
@@g-locmedia The thing about hating them comes because there are people who don't get used to the slight feedback they have (the main problem of F-16 pilots is that at the beginning they didn't have even the slightest feedback of what they were doing, but over time that was corrected. In our case of gamers, the movement of the joystick gives us the feeling that we are really feeding the movement of the device. There are joysticks, which have always been softer, harder, less responsive and a lot more and much more sensitive and accurate.
Personally, I've always liked them a bit hard but sensitive and precise (the money I've spent on joysticks, as some of them broke or irretrievably misadjusted, is something I prefer not to calculate). So in a way, maybe I've always been more prepared for the force control ones. But I have friends, who are used to huge displacements that can't handle the feeling. And in fact, a lot of people tend to do that.
So I understand that for someone with very wide movements in the joystick movement, it can be frustrating to feel the beep that you have reached the maximum force input. Like for others, it's an incredible world. I also understand that the price of these systems is relatively large, so trying it out and not liking it must be awful, while in scrolling joysticks, you have them at all prices. Which makes it easier to get in and get used to the type of joystick you want, while one of the force joysticks is another leap into the void. I would almost advise that if you have the opportunity, you try one from a friend, although if you don't, it's one more leap for confidence in the way you ride and the work to get used to.
Also apart from friends who can't even see it, I have some who tell me everything (and not good) because after having tried mine, He can't go back to his own.
That said, these control systems are really personal, and I would advise everyone to try them out, before deciding whether to take the leap unless you are convinced that you are going to do it.
For my part, as I said, I will never be able to get the taste of a scrolling one again, especially those that I never liked, which were those that you could move in their entirety with one finger... but also those I used to cherish.
@@Timberjac I sadly haven't seen a single pilot that was competitive with these sticks in any flight or space game though.
I would go so far as to say no SATAL in DCS was ever won by someone using this tech - could you point out some famous performance wins in competitive combat?
The reason those sticks were made in real life was to be able to resist more G's while freeing up the center for panels / MFD's.
We don't need to resist G's in the home cockpits though... and we do lose a lot of precision from finger flying, as the center section feels soulless and sloppy without cams, dampening or anything that makes sense.
It would be really interesting to me to hear your opinion as to why we have that discrepancy of perceived skill vs. measurable real world skill in competitions and contests.
in the early days of the F-16, the stick was immovable, later after pilot feedback, they introduced a limited movement to help the pilots with the touch of the stick.
I have the F-16-ex version with the rumble vibration. I recommend that for most people.
I believe if you want the realism factor, you'll have to have the full 3D chair and the MFSSB version because sitting in a normal chair and using the Force feedback is sorta cool, but it would be best with a full motion 3D chair.
Thanks for the insight. Interesting the they introduced the movement in to the stick. Do you rate the rumble kit then? What option are there for adjusting the rumble?
@@g-locmedia Hey, it doesn't seem like you got an answer, I have had the shake kit for the f-16ex stick, and the new f-15EX with the vibration motors as well.
It's a bit gimmicky, but it provides a cool feeling. The motors activate when you're going into a steep dive angle, whenever you drop bombs, when your wheels touch the ground or you turn sharply... all of that together, it really ties in the experience really well. It's not necessarily going to make you a better pilot, but I'd rather have it than not.
thanks for the reply. Great to know.@@jacob9ist
Hello,
I have the rs fssb and i think pressure sticks are awesome.
The real trick to mastering them is setting a curvature and deadzone that works for you ad than letting it come to you naturally.
When you start thinking about how much pressure you´re putting on the stick and stuff like that it isn´t gonna work the way you want it to
Anyway glad there is some compitition going on in the hotas making world.
I am about to "pull the trigger" on the rs. Is it as good as advertised?
@@txflyer82 I bought the RS base + grip a few months ago, and it is superb.
@@txflyer82 For me it is and I'm using the flight stick that came with my old HOTAS Cougar (although it needs a reinforcement ring, just in case, because the metal used by Thrustmaster is weak and the pressure point that in the displacement point is exerted on the mechanism, in one of force is felt more precisely in the weak point of said joystick. I'm waiting to see if the RS take out one of the F-16's right-hand men or if they take out the F-35's, because the construction and materials used by RS are incredible (after all, their real business is to make combat simulation systems for various armed forces throughout the world, Gamer's products are an extra within the overall of their income statement).
this stick specifically is 1:1 with the real thing, except for the NWS/ARR Disconnect button. winwing has made it a 4 way hat instead of the single depressable button
its pretty close. I think they done a great job with that
Great review! Always wondered about the MFSSB stick. I may just have to try one myself. Cheers
No worries. Thanks for your kind comments
1:35 your chassis is flexing and will throw off the force. Look at racing sim wheels where the top end stuff foes not flex at all because just that tiny amount of flex disrupts the feel of it ever so slightly.
Yea it is a bit. Not really designed for this type of stick.
You'll need a sturdier mount for this stick. Your sidemounts seems to have a bit of side-to-side freeplay.
Yea it does move a little but I can’t feel it moving when I’m flying.
Just saw that Winwing are having an up to 40% off sale on right now. I'm not affiliated with them in any way, just thought I'd give anyone the heads up in they are already in tyhe market for any Winwing products.
I have the Orion 2 paired with the Virpil throttle & the control panel 2 for DCS. I also have the VKB Gunfighter MK III base with Space Combat grip which I use for Star Citizen. I have to say I'm very impressed with the Orion 2's construction, particularly the base, solid & accurate construction, chunky & robust cams.
From what I've seen so far you seem to have the Thrustmaster Warthog flight stick & have reviewed the Gunfighter MK III base. For DCS / flight sim I would def recommended the Orion 2 as an upgrade to the Thrustmaster, the quality and price point on the non-MFSSB Orion 2 is in a very good spot I think. Having the version with the additional buttons on the joystick / side mount of extra buttons, is helpful for UI interactions. I initially didn't buy the version with extra buttons, but ended up getting it separately. I haven't tried any of the Virpil sticks.
The VKB GF Mk III works well for Star Citizen for me, because the base mechanism is less weighty / lighter & also the stick, which is good for the number and rapidity of direction changes with using the stick for aiming. In Star Citizen stick aiming is similar to FPS style.
Thanks for all that detailed info. Really appreciated it. Yes, I think up up for a winwing or a virpil stick sooner rather than later.
Interesting, I am just starting my journey on sticks. I kind of of have my heart set on winwing just because of the quality. I mainly play star citizen and space sims though and I’ve read that the throttle isnt really that useful for SC and it’s better to go HOSAS. I was thinking of Orion 2 for the stick and a gladiator for the second stick. MarkHawk did you go through this when you were choosing. Any advice?
@@terryjlee1531Hello, I played Star Citizen with duel sticks (HOSAS) before playing DCS (HOTAS). The WinWing Orion 2 could work for Star citizen right stick, but I haven't tried it for SC myself. I use VKB Gladiator for right stick and NXT for left in SC.
The original F16 had absolutely no movement in the stick. But everyone compared about it. It was the #1 issue with all the pilots training to fly the F16. So they loosened it up so it would wable about 2° .
I have this and the matching throttle. I love them!
The throttle is a beast
Where the NWS switch should be, i see an extra HAT switch. Can it be pressed down? Other than that, this looks amazing!
I’ve flown a Lockheed-made F35 sim.. They told me the stick costs $20k; it felt like this. Very little movement, unbelievable how easy and accurate it was to make the plane move with that stick though. I can see why they use sticks like this in fighters after using it. Pressure is faster than movement imo
I think that why they use this design very easy to make super quick movements.
@@g-locmedia Yeah for sure. They said they’ve had people bump it while getting out of the sim and it completely screws the sensors haha, they have to take it apart and replace stuff when that happens. I guess the sensitivity comes with a price. They said it was a 1:1 copy of the real stick + or - a few things
I’m not sure if it was using Hall effect sensors for the movement or not. Part of me doubts that. Either way, interesting experience to say the least
@@Laminar-Flow Yeah, wouldn't have been hall effect sensors on a force-sensing stick, but load cells.
Bit of a necro, but I have been looking at one of these pretty hard. I have been using a MUCH older Saitek X-65 (not a typo, not the 56) and it also uses a force sensing mechanism. It took a while to get used to the movement, but after a thousand or so hours, I almost can't be without it. I've primarily been in Elite Dangerous and the ability to make super fine control inputs was the best I have used. As a matter of fact, I'm actually really bummed at having to replace my X 65. Sadly, it keeps losing button connectivities, and it seems like every session leads to a new trip to the button configuration menu. But if you spend some time with the force sensing, maybe 80-100 hours, it begins to feel absolutely natural.
Another trick I used was to put a silicone washer between the mount and the base when bolting it down. It allowed for just a little bit of movement at the stick as the washer compressed, and it was enough to help trick the brain into accepting the process.
Thank so much for such a detailed insight. Great for others to see.
The reason they did this is because the f16 originally had a pressure transducer in its stick, which pilots hated. So this is exactly on par with the real stick.
thanks for the insight on that. Pretty interesting
I have had one since launch and eventually got comfortable with it, but it took at least 20h and a lot of tweaking. Aside from just time in sim, I needed to physically mounted it at a slight forward angle (the f16 also has this and it helped a lot with ergonomics, especially for longer gaming sessions), spent a lot of time adjusting the centering tabs and settings, and even went as far as soldering the bearings that contact the centering metal tabs (these are carryover internals from the standard version, the bearing surface is not needed in the FSSB and I think these should have been solid from the factory as they have a small amount of backlash which translated to a loose center feeling with a larger dead zone needed. I soldered them to be solid and reinstalled with a much much improved centering feel). After the time and those adjustments it feels great and I'm about as proficient as I was with a center stick with a 200mm extension. for my own feelings, I think it handles better in a dog fight or acrobatics when you are making quick changes to direction, but a center stick with an extension seems to be easier to be more precise than the FSSB. Overall happy with it now, but it was a commitment and I'm not sure I'd call it better than a good center stick with an extension.
Thanks so much for the detailed insight. Super helpful for other people considering buying this to see.
@@g-locmedia of course :) I didn't find too much info on the FSSB even after it's been out for the better part of a year, and always happy to help get info out.
This pressure-sensitive unit is very interesting, but the official page states that it cannot be assembled by the user because it requires technical skill to assemble.
In other words, I think it's safe to assume that interchangeability with the cam mechanism will be lost.
This is a problem.
I'm just now starting to think about whether to turn the DIY modified X55 I'm used to into a Gladiator or an Orion 2, so this was very helpful.
I believe that the appeal of these gimbal structures compared to ball joints such as the X55 is that there is a clear separation in the operating feel of the X and Y axes.
If anything, the pressure-sensitive type is intended to reduce this, and I think there will be situations where you just want to operate the elevator, but the elevator operates diagonally and ends up rolling.
What do real pilots think?
The first versions of the stick they allowed the user to interchange but I think they were getting lots of issues so decided to lock it down.
I’m just guessing, but with a pressure stick, I think you probably want to mount it so that you can rest your arm while using it, otherwise it will be uncomfortable. I fly the Winwing Viper 1 HOTAS (similar to this but not with force sensing) and it is absolutely fantastic. Winwing truly makes genius, well crafted and high quality products.
I think you might be right on with that. Maybe that's why I struggled.
Did you do something special to have this quality of pictures with DCS ?
This is a pretty old video but nothing that I can remember
@3:05 You forgot about the Virpil Alpha Prime. It has a great metal body.
Never tried the prime. Is that more of a space style stick?
@@g-locmedia Yes, I believe it was designed with Star Citizen in mind. If that's not a issue, it has tonnes of buttons; very comfortable to grip for medium to large hands; and a few of features that really set apart. Features like the scroll wheel with a two stage button. Or, the dedicated mini stick. It has hall effect sensors on everything. I also really like the primary trigger assembly. For brevity, it's basically 5 buttons for your index finger.
Outside of space sims, I think the Alpha Prime is a great option for people that aren't as concerned about simulating a specific aircraft yet still want a very high quality grip with some modern features and 32 buttons.
This along with the new thrustmaster throttle will be legendary for the viper
Now that would be an amazing combo!
Why go for Thurstmaster throttle base when you can get Winwing F-16EX throttle and stick combo for 20$ more if you option extra shake kit.
Idk whats going on in their head but Thrustmasters new throttle base is absurdly priced.
300$ just for the throttle quadrant WITHOUT any buttons???
If you want them, then its 529$.
Mind you, you still have to get the stick and the base for it.
Winwing F-16EX throttle gives you buttons for 4 planes. F-16, F-15, F-18 and A-10. Granted there are few for all so its not exactly many buttons per plane.
@@Kumyar Totally agree on this point Thrustmaster are deluded if they think that thier kit is at a good price point! They are riding on a wave they produced 20 years ago when they launched thier warthog products and they were the best at the time but they are literally 20 years out of date and the competition now make not only higher quality product but at Way better pricing levels. Thrustmasters Wave of "We are the Best!" crashed on the rocks 3 years ago when Virpil and WinWing entered the marketplace properly.
The only thing WinWing have to get over is that some still think that Chinese means cheap and nasty but Chinese manufacturers can make the best products in the world but we ask them to make cheap for everything else so they do. WinWing are top of thier game at the moment they even fire/cancel contracts with thier suppliers if they think the buttons or switches will fail or are below thier high quality standards they have, plus unlike Thrustmaster they are continually listening to thier customers and changing and improving thier designs to keep thier product line up expanding and make sure it's giving thier customers what they want.
@@Kumyar what is absurd is to compare an online direct company from China to a global company with a normal customer service and eveything that goes with it. I had an issue with my orion 1 base. Never had feedback besides some parts to fix it myself! running a company is complicated
TM is garbage. Just get the winwing throttle.
Nice video, sir! If I didn't have so much money invested into Virpil gear...
You can’t go wrong with virpil equipment. Some of the best rudders and sticks on the market. What Virpil electronics are you using?
@@g-locmedia I currently own an Alpha Prime grip with WarBRD base, cm3 throttle, CP2 control panel, and a CP1 panel is on-order, along with several VPC mounts.
@@777Thibs your are in deep with virpil. That’s a good place to be. I own the control panel which I love. I have briefly tried a new of their other products and one thing I can say about virpil they put product quality first.
your stick is moving on the mount you should fix it solid
Yea the mount o. This isn’t really designed for this type of stick
Great video! Nice looking stick. I'll stick with Virpil. I don't have luck dealing with Chinese companies warranty and I've not heard good things about Winwings service.
Your in good hands with virpil mate. I have one of their control panels. Superb build quality and finish.
Virpil, Winwing and VKB are exotic and top-tier, and if choice wasn't an option, most would be happy with either. The only issue i have with Winwing, is the labeling on their devices, looks so garish and cheap. That of course is no reflection on its quality or value for money.
Are you talking about their branding/logo?
Cannot see it in VR
@@ridingwithbaz2736 Why would i spend all that money on Virpil Gear / Yokes and Throttles, to fumble around like a blind man in VR?, or use those prosthetic looking controllers, kinda going backwards, its not progressive?.
PS: In my previous post, i actually was referring to the garish labeling on the Winwing products
@@davewills6121 No offesnse but once you get VR and see the diference it makes to the reality of the Flightsim experience there is no going back and if you go VR and have Virpil WinWing kit you usually have the funds to buy or build a decent sim pit or rig. Getting used to where every switch and button on your rig is happens quite fast if you fly daily, certainly faster than most think. So getting all that expensive but high quality Virpil/Winwing gear and combining it with VR Does give you the best experience. Adding VR certainly doesn't mean you lose anything or waste your money getting your Virpil kit it only adds to your realism.
Is this Winwing with new tecnology ? No !
See the Saitek X65f pro - very old.
I hope the force sensing will be back in Joysticks
Greetings
Mitreder🖖👍
I thought they originally used this in the first f-16s but changed it? I’ve seen several interviews of them talking about it? Maybe I mis understood and they found a middle ground
I thought it was the other way around. Not sure though. you might be right.
No, they didn't change it, been force sensing from the start. What they did do was to add a tiny bit of movement (like a quarter of an inch, IIRC) to provide haptics, after test pilots complained of the original stick configuration that was completely stationary and didn't move at all. But that's only to give feel indication of the stick being operated, all the control inputs still come from the force sensing alone.
The problem you have with the pressure controls exists between stick and chair: it's nothing to do with the hardware, every real F-16 pilot went through this same process and had this same issue. Especially the ones that flew other fighters for a long time and had to transition to F-16. It's perfectly normal, it just takes time.
I have the FSSB and I like it. But I can't do air to air refueling with it. Just can't get those fine controls. The Winwing stick isn't super realistic. The real F16 stick has something like 14kg force on the pitch up, and then somewhat smaller forces on the other movment. With roll right being the lowest with around 6kg. You can get the Realsimualtor stick that has all the realistic forces. But the the stick alone costs more than the full Winwing F16 HOTAS.
Yea the real simulator version is a crazy price. But honestly 14kg on pitch seems like a real workout.
@g-locmedia yeah those F16 pilots must make fortune doing arm wrestling hustles at bars.
@@Gunfreak19 lol
May I ask how you hold the stick? Because I connected the stick to the table, but the table is very light, when using MFSSB, the whole table will shake, and it is not stable, which will affect the experience. But I don't know how to fix it to the ground.
You’ll need some sort of cockpit like I have in the video or a much heavier table.
Does the stick have a pressure sensing twist axis too?
No not on the twist axis
Great video. Got mine yesterday and realised I have a huge learning curve to master this. Winwing is nailing it. TM just feels last gen. All the software of all the brands is pretty crap IMHO.
Awesome. Just out of interest what percentage are you running your pressure levels at?
Yeah I went Virpil cm2 and the difference from that and the TM was night and day so accurate. I kept the TM Warthog throttle though because it’s authentic. People who break their TM stuff just don’t know how to look after their stuff.
@@alexsp7086 I liked and enjoyed my TM stuff and thought it was well made. I still have the F18 grip as it just feels so good in the hand, might match it with a VKB base for fun. Friends have the Virpil and it is good stuff.
Just like the Saitek Pro Flight X65F on the whole people didn't like it, even F16 pilots didnt like force sensing that's why they engineered movement into the stick
I didn't realise they brought the movement back to the stick. Thanks for the info
@@g-locmedia wasn't full movement just a bit of movement pilots didn't like a stick that was totally rigid
Have you had any problems with it so far? I'm thinking between Virpil and WinWing.
Suggestion: Should do a review on the virpil alpha prime and their throttle!
No problems so far. Unfortunately the only virpil gear I own is the control panel 2 which is excellent but I haven’t had any other experiences with any other virpil products.
@@g-locmedia Thanks for the response! Really wish virpil comes out with something like winwing and their F-16. If virpil doesnt by the end of 2024 I'm probably just going to go with WinWing.
A looking awesome stick.. 👍👍
Thanks 👍
Does this base work with the thrustmaster warthog stick? Would like to just buy the base if possible as in already have the TM stick.
I’m not sure. Unfortunately I no longer have the stick to hand to test this out.
I wouldn't recommend to use any thrustmaster grip with high load devices - be it FSSB or just "good" regular bases. The forces will snap the stem from the grip. It's just cheap die cast aluminium.
Ask me how I know, after 3 hornet grips broke in the same place on a Virpil CM2 base.
Your best bet is to sell the whole stick and buy a fitting one instead. They're all superior in terms of switch quality and availability of switches and axis anyway.
Out of curiosity, will you be covering the release of the VKB Gunfighter Mk IV and T-Rudder Mk V pedals? The MCG Ultimate grip is by far the best grip I've ever used, I'd be interested to see how you feel it stack's up to the equipment you have experienced. Great video's, subscribed for more!
I'd love to and have reached out to VKB bout this but have heard nothing back. Thanks for your interest in the channel
@@g-locmedia did you have any luck with VKB? If not, is there a better contact point for me to reach you as I can re-box mine and send it to you as a loan for testing.
I am really interested in this. I am also wandering if the best experience would be pairing it with the Winwing Orion2 Throttle Base or pair it with the soon to be released Thrustmaster Viper TQS Mission Pack. Thanks for any information.
The Orion2 might be the better option if build quality is at the forefront of your decision. However if the like the idea of the chaff/flare button and the landing gear but don’t mind the plastic lighter finish then yea the TM would be the choice.
@@g-locmedia Thanks. "plastic lighter finish" meaning light weight plastic or shiny slick finish like a Bic Lighter?
@@g-locmediaI'm also in the same situation he's @knowyourjoe8826, the Viper TQS pack Mission calls me insistently, and I think it's great, but on the other hand, I have the feeling that the old Throttle of my HOTAS Cougar (which now works thanks to the RS Tusba), is better built and made of better material (it feels like metal) than the plastic that you seem to have in your hand with the Viper TQS.
If you buy the MFSSB version, can you disable the force-sensing and use it like a traditional stick? Or is full disassembly and removal of the module required?
Yea in a sense. You have to open it up and remove the MFSSB part. Please double check that with WINWING first before buying though.
Can i remove the force feedback hardware? I can see myself changing aircraft (airbus) overtime and wonder if the force function / addon is limited to the f16 ?
The stick that I was using you can remove the MFSSB but I think they may have changed the design slightly so I'm now unsure if that's still the case.
Hi there,
Just a question. If you do have the MFSSB version and you don't like it, can you turn it off and use it as a normal stick? Okay you've thrown a couple of hundred euros down the drain but is it possible??
You can. The MFSSB come preinstalled but you can remove it and underneath is the standard clutch mechanism.
Please double check me on that before purchasing as I no longer have the stick to fully verify that.
@@g-locmedia okay!!! Actually its too late as it should be arriving in a couple of days but im sure i can get around it or just get used to it... Thanks for the answer Sir.
@@jameswilliams1085 99% sure it can be removed mate.
@@g-locmedia thank you
F16 irl is way more sensitive and requires micro adjustments
Did you pilot the F16?
haha. Yea its how it works in the f16. ITS awsome. Under high G-load you are not really moving your arms.
Awsome
What seat do you use?
I have a NLR flight seat pro
I got this and a gladiator next evo for my left stick and the vkb honestly feels like a peice of trash compared to the winwing it's so good. I got the normal spring and cam version.
I do love the Winwing gear. You can't go wrong.
Has anybody tried the MFSSB on Falcon BMS? Is it compatible?
you see all you need is this WW MFSSB side mounted & the VPforce RHINO ffb base centre mounted & there's no aircraft you can't emulate the controls of.
That rhino is a beast
@@g-locmedia Oh yeah, like 9Nm torque it's got a good feel to it, absolute best stick base I've felt like butter smooth no cogging. 9Nm is tuff as but some of the diy kits using the largest motors are like 24Nm!
@@PiNKMuDSimGaming do you own one yourself or is it just something you’ve tried?
@@g-locmedia I own one, early serial number so I've had it for a little while now, it's game changing. I fly GA, wabirds (il2) jets & heli's (dcs) it's revolutionary imo for heli flight, having actual force trim in heli is awesome, stick goes 'limp' then 'tight' again in new pos. GA, warbirds get the most from the ffb effects VPforce has a telem app for DCS (msfs be added later) so you can add effects to any module, on top of the native if the module has any, f-14 has best. But I've found best thing about ffb base is changing the feel of the base, even the length of throw/asymmetric throw to suit each aircraft without going into the base i.e. changing springs, cams clutches etc. you just change profile in software & each aircraft can feel like it 'should' or how you want it to feel, no mess no fuss just a profile change. The Rhino is awesome but so is Walmis the guy behind it, really involved with community, friendly, helpful, can perform black magic with ffb devices 😆. Check out the VPforce discord if you're not there already m8. Oh yeah he has adapters so it will work with "any" grip i.e. Virpil/TM *native VKB, Winwing he has adapters for.
This is the way. Exactly my plan
3:20 So beautifully made with suction cups that look like they came out of a dollar store. WTF
Honestly I think you need to have this hard mounted
One question to you all: does it have a standard rudder function?
The version in this video I show does not. You can buy the standard version and the get the z axis module as an extra.
@@g-locmedia thanks, just like the good old days that ive used the CH f16 stick..lol
next video: today i am reviewing the super cheap realsimulator fssb joystick
I think that one is a bit out of my reach
Wow did you miss. The Winwing stick is much bigger they the thing
Not sure I fully understand what you mean?
Logitech launched something like this a loong time ago, the X65, it flopped hard no one likes it
I don't think the X65 was pressure based
I love the 65F, been using it since it was released so over 10 years. I am a hardcore DCS player and X65f didn't fail me once. Saitek X65f is a force based Kgf hotas.
Now I am looking to upgrade for another force sensing, wingwing.
Is it possible to have pressure profiles?
REAL SIMULATOR fait beaucoup mieux, avec la même technologie, et des versions du stick pour les simulateurs pro. Le stick de Réal Simulator est mieux sur la totalité des points, de la fabrication. aux matériaux. Par contre, il est un petit peu plus cher mais c'est ce qui se rapproche le plus du véritable F16 il équipe les simulateurs pour les véritables pilotes de chasses. Il existe deux version et une autre version a plus de 3000€...mais la base elle coute en gros 500€ me semble, pour les véritables amateurs du F16 y'a encore mieux que WinWing
or realsimulator:)
Yikes, plastic rubbish compared to the Warthog F-16 stick. But I liked your sex wording. Its a F-Sexteen and uses around sex kilograms pressure. Noice.
This stick is a full metal build. Maybe better quality than the warthog.
From the premium sticks warthog is the worst my friend. If you will open it you will see that the gimbal which is doing all the job is plastic. All the rest they have the inside of the base full metal. I have warthog and virpil. We talk about day and night deference.
@@Balthazar030 True. I’ll admit I’ve never actually opened up a warthog.
If I'm not wrong, the original grip in the F-16 is plastic too.
China. DONE BUY CHINA!