Three Floppy Drives, A Gotek, And A Zip Drive Walk Into A Bar ...
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- Building a floppy-testing monster PC from the mid 90s. Adding more than two floppy drives isn't easy!
Website for multiple floppies:
www.seasip.info/VintagePC/flo...
DC2.sys and SDRIVE.sys:
archive.org/details/dc2_sdriv...
Zip Tools Drivers:
vetusware.com/manufacturer/Io...
3D Printer files for rails:
www.thingiverse.com/thing:623...
Be sure to subscribe to the main channel: / @retrohackshack
Chapters:
00:00 - First Look
05:33 - What's Inside
07:49 - Testing For Shorts
11:56 - Cards
14:07 - First Boot
19:17 - Floppy Drives
26:58 - Adding A Gotek Drive
30:08 - Adding A Zip Drive
38:20 - Putting It All Together
Music used by permission:
“Fakebit World” by Malmen
/ malmen
"The Dream Is Always The Same" by State Azure
@stateazure
Other music from the RUclips Audio Library
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#Retro #Computers #floppydisk 
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I have added the STL file to thingiverse for the rails. www.thingiverse.com/thing:6230383
"Gonna need a good cleaning..." - reaches down and pulls out a Tribble ;-)
Just for a moment, imagine how much happiness this brought someone back in the 1990s. Good times. 👍
Never mind that, it's giving thousands happiness right now ;)
Micron's cases are part of a line of plastic-skinned SECC cases used by several manufacturers. Unsure who the original OEM was for them, but Micron and Dell used them, as well as the Mac clones. Those rails will be useful to people who have these plastic-skinned cases regardless of how they're labeled.
I have added the STL file to thingiverse for the rails. www.thingiverse.com/thing:6230383
Bravo! This was a great video. Happy for you.
The first thing I would always do is max out that cache on the MB. Thanks for the memories.
Yeah. I might come back and max everything out in a future video.
Thanks for the memories.
The 1.44 MB 3.5" drive should be able to handle the 720 KB disks with no problem, as long as the HD sensor is working on the drive. It's not like 5.25" inch drives where they have a different number of tracks; both 720KB and 1.44MB disks have 80 tracks. I want to build a tower like this someday, though for me I'd want the 3.5" drive to be a 3 mode drive so I could write 3.5" 1.2MB disks for my Japanese computers that use that format. Then get at least a Zip and a Jaz drive in there for fun. Probably wouldn't mess with the SyQuest drives, since I've heard they're all notoriously unreliable.
Oddly enough, I actually have one of those 3.5"/5.25" combo drives, picked it up ages ago out of a spare-parts budget bin at some computer place in town, intending to use it eventually in a retro-computing build that I still haven't gotten the rest of the components for. I had envisioned using it to read Amiga floppies and CoCo floppies using one of those read-any-format-of-drive controller cards. It is, in fact, sitting three or four feet away from me, covered in dust.
Nice
Thank you for the tips on Dallas replacements. You saved me a lot of effort
Needs an LS120 SuperDrive.
... and an 8" shugart. 😜
Yeah
Hello Aaron Great video. I love the duel Floppy drive, I recall wanting to get one for my rig back in the day but never did. I too am now working on building a PC just for making disks for my IBM 5160 I am fixing up
I would love to get my hands on a retro machine like this that still functions and runs windows 98se when I was a weee lad in my teens I had used windows 98se's compression methods to squeeze more room into floppies and 100mb zip disks not knowing it would bite me later as systems changed and compression methods changed.
I remember doing a paper boy route just so I could buy a external zip drive because the plethora of floppies I had everywhere and zip was the wave of the future!
Side note I also recently found my voodoo 3 3000 that my grandmother got for me for my bday the day it came out as well as my windows 98se cd.
Awesome! Care for a donation? 😁 jk
Didn't know 2-in-1 dual floppies were rare. Our school back in the day had like over a dozen. I took one home and the rest went to the bin, and now I regret it :/
I've done about 20 coin cell conversions on these - never had a problem, costs about 25 cents to do.
Really nice find. Used to buy Micron computers for the startup I worked at in the 2000. Really liked the machines. Micron was headquartered out of Boise if I remember right, memory and computers.
This is the first one I've worked on. Seems really well built.
Pentium 90 and gaming machine - I almost spewed my drink on my dual monitors - And I say this while I have a Pentium Pro 200 behind me that I have used for gaming of the appropriate age games, but I am very close to mothballing it and using the "retro gaming" software to emulate older machines so as to avoid the headache of old hardware and failing components.
Three Floppy Drives, A Gotek, And A Zip Drive Walk Into A Bar.The barkeeper goes: "Hell no, OUT EVERYBODY !!
LOL
Can't speak for Micron computers, but I've used(and still do use) their Crucial line of RAM and SSDs for years, and they've always been great.
The 'Made in Idaho' sticker makes sense - Micron (at least their PC division) was headquartered there at the time. It wouldn't surprise me that they built them there too.
Cool
That is a great ewaste find. Friend of mine had one similar - lovely machine.
It sure is!
3:00 wait it's a double floppy! I've never seen more than one of them the one that I have scene is the one I got I have no idea where where I got it.
Yeah, let's revisit this nice rig once you finish the floppy project.
Will do!
These Dallas NVRAM/RTC chips are a pox from the past, and definitely make me appreciate advances in technology to EEPROM/flash, FRAM, etc. But at least yours wasn't soldered in, like they are on my Tektronix oscilloscopes.
EDIT: Hey, another member of the Type 1 diabetes club! :D Sorry about the surgery. If it makes you feel any better, I've had BOTH shoulders manipulated, and many "trimmings" on the left one. Diabetic since '86.
Wow. I have had frozen shoulder in both, but no surgery in them. They resolved themselves after about 18 months.
I'm not going to get nostalgic about dim yellow lights. They aren't for mood and don't normally run when driving anyway. They are utilitarian for getting in and out of the car, and the white lights are brighter and cleaner.
No LS-120?
I found those to be 100% backwards compatible with 720KB, 1.44M and 2.88M as well as actual LS-120 disks, and they don't take a floppy interface, but IDE/PATA instead, so the two 5 1/4 can have a floppy channel each.
Sadly, 5 1/4 is not as reliable although 1.2M drives think they are backwards compatible, and damage data if you write to 360K disks with data on.
I never used zip drives, or found any need, as LS-120s fulfilled the same need, and I never needed to exchange that volume of data with anyone who had a zip drive, at least until CDR and CD R/W had superseded them. My BluRay XL RW deals fine with all previous optical formats in that form factor back to old CD-R, including every DVD format I've ever tried, and can put 100GB on a single BDXL disk (when I could afford them!). But of course, that is SATA not PATA. In the unlikely event that I ever need a zip drive, I can set it as a slave to the LS-120 Master, or vice-versa. The floppy tape interface would likely have been for one of the early small backup tape drives, which IIRC ended up at a massive DC-120 and had to be left running overnight. I skipped those and went through QIC cartridges and then those huge ones whose name escapes me right now - but both of those used SCSI. Now I just take a snapshot of the storage system and clone it to an external drive. The same snapshot gets much more slowly cloned to a friend's system over the internet, while I take his backup clone in return. One copy online, one offline, and another offsite is as good as we are ever likely to need. ZFS renders all previous disk management and filesystems obsolete, although it can and does house datasets in any of the older formats, so if I want to run a VM that does not support ZFS, I can set up a "disk" that it understands, right back to the original FAT or in theory CP/M formats, although I've never actually tried running CP/M-86 (or even earlier versions in emulation) on any of my post-millennial machines. But FAT, ExFAT, EXT, NTFS, XFS, UFS and others are all housed in their own datasets in the pool, both for native use and by client VMs, and all use the underlying checksummed, mirrored and RAID-Z very fast Copy-On-Write cached filesystem transparently.
But flash memory has made all older removable media obsolete, and in embedded form is so robust that it has replaced tape or wire in aircraft Flight Data Recorders and Cockpit Voice Recorders, although for that application they are sealed inside very strong and highly insulated boxes inside the bright orange "black boxes". Not that I foresee any need to ever access one of those!
I need an LS-120!
@@RetroHackShackAfterHours They are very good (and even give a speed boost on reading/writing the more common 3 1/2" formats). I've remembered the other tape formats I used - DAT and DLT, which still have value for rescuing old archived data. Both can be plugged into a fast/wide SCSI chain, which can also be useful for recovering the contents of older (usually server) hard discs, as long as they aren't part of a RAID set. I slill have DAT & DLT drives, but no PCIe SCSI card. I could grab one of those much more easily than a drive if I was ever called upon to get the data off an old tape though. I'm not going to get one "just in case" - it would go on the bill for whoever needed that data, and not push it up unreasonably high. Ebay has them pre-owned but tested at under £50.
Hi, the DC2.SYS should work if you change the /d:0 and /d:1 to /d:2 and /d:3 for the driver.sys, because you want to set the type of the 3rd and 4th drive and not change the a: and b: already set by the bios. 26:08
Yeah. I tried that as well when I was testing. No worky with this particular setup.
Your expansion slots would be on the 3.3.
I really don't think you need a 720kb floppy in that rig, the 1.44mb drive will read/write and format those disks without issue. Having the trifecta of 1.44/1.2/360 menas you can read and write just about any PC disk out there.
I don't agree that you might expect tantalum caps only on the 12V rail. I made a microcomputer in 1983 that had tantalums all over the place. On the 5V supply. Debugging a 5V short is not rocket science.
Thanks
Hi, ware did you find the program to the zip drive, i can´t find it
I just added a link in the description for those. There are several versions on that site. You might have to register to download.
I wonder if what I deal with is related to trigger finger issues? If I use my hand of hard work, gripping hammers drills etc - I get inflamation that makes it hard to open my hands the next morning, and then for about an hour or so my fingers don't like to extend, it's uncomfortable to push them.
It sounds similar
@@RetroHackShackAfterHours oof it's already annoying enough! I can't imagine it being so bad you'd need surgery to correct it. I hope your healing all goes well!!
I built one similar with a Dell that looks really similar. I have a dual floppy drive as well however, mine will read 720 and 1.44. I got lucky.
Nice
Thanks for documenting this, I'll be coming back to this if I build a PC like this. I don't think you need a separate 720K drive in your build, you can just change the drive type in the BIOS to 720K and point it at the 1.44MB drive and it should work. The number of tracks and the TPI are the same between DS/DD and DS/HD for 3 1/2" disks.
I suppose that's true. And if I was to format a 720K disk I can always specify it in the command line.
You could just stick a 720 in that 1.44 without changing the BIOS... 1.44 MB drives were backward compatible and had a sensor to read the High Density hole (opposite the read/write shutter). If the shutter is covered, it will sense a 720 k drive and treat as such automatically.
@@horusfalcon : If I remember correctly, you can even run the old 8" floppy drives off controllers with the right pinout, though those would mostly have been Shuggart instead of IBM's version (and would need an external connection, since they don't fit in either size of PC case drive slots). The main caveats are:
1) Why? (probably to swap data with some old Tandy business computers),
2) I think those disks had a lower density version than offered by the 5" disks, and
3) More capacity, since the 8" disks could _at least_ reach 1Meg in the high capacity versions.
@@horusfalcon Detecting the media type was not a function of the floppy drive in those days. 1.44MB drives would treat a 720K floppy as a 1.44MB diskette and fail to format unless the /F:720 parameter was specified. We didn't get into media detection until more advanced drives came along like Bernoulli, Zip and Jaz. You also don't want to routinely format a floppy diskette. Formats add more wear and tear to the media, degrading them even further.
Not for Nothing Just plug it in, I fine old ones like that al the Time late 70's early 80;s 90% they start right up, You have nothing to lose
HI, can you do a video on gotek, how to create disks on the usb drive. and how to put programs on it.
Sure! I'll add it to the list.
Internal Zip drives are prone to the click-of-death...
Yeah. I am always wary of that. Too bad they had such a fatal flaw.
So sad that the other one wasn't saved. I suggest getting 2 if there are 2 available in case one doesn't work.
Next time ...
Adding ram to those videocards only allow a bigger resolution, not performance.
That would be nice too. Good to know.
Yes please upgrade to the best of your ability.
What kind of hard drive did you use?
Cf card adapter
Can be both on 5 and 12! [tantalums]
Thanks
You definitely should take the camera to the recycling center!
I mean to film your great finds.
Yeah. I take pictures sometimes, but usually forget to add them to the video. ☺️
Planning to build such a system for years. The tower with all the drIves is standing in a corner sice 2021. hate myself.
I'm still a bit confused why there are so many people who need a separate 360k drive. I've heard so many stories that I believe there must be something to it. On the other hand, my trusty old 1.2m drive - that I got way back at the beginning of the '90s with my first 386 - reads and writes 360k disks perfectly and there seem to be no compatibility issues with the 360k drive in my XT class machine. It also still reads 360k disks I wrote back then, 30 years ago. Am I just lucky? Were there maybe different drives that e.g. wrote with a higher strength magnetic field to compensate for the smaller heads inside a 1.2m drive? I only have these two drives so I can't do more tests...
once you written something on a floppy disk in a 360K drive, you cannot just format it or erase in 1.2M drive and get the disk readable back in 360K drive.
SD heads are just wider and will read altogether that junk that was left by the sides of the actual data that was written by narrow HD head. that's the point.
@@borodaevkirill7371 Yes, that's the story I've heard. But I never had any issues like that. Maybe its just these two drives I own that work together?
@@f3liscatus : The high/low density issue really only happens when you write in a high-density drive then try reading in a low-density drive, _AND_ can absolutely be fixed by the high-density drive switching to a low-density head when writing low-density disks.
@@absalomdraconis So there are drives that have both sets of heads? Seems like I have to open up the case and have a look...
@@f3liscatus Some 5.25 drives could read both (usually a jumper enabled it), later ones couldn't since the low-density drives were obsolete (and not supporting it would make manufacturing cheaper)
Depending on the network card you can wright some interesting firmware on it. I remember about 20 years ago I had a part time job at a computer recycling center we had a side project of setting up firmware on a network card that when you had it installed on a computer and powered it up it would connect to a server automatically download and install the OS it worked to an extent.
Pc saurios😅
Three Floppy Drives, A Gotek, And A Zip Drive Walk Into A Bar ...
the bartender stares at them for a while, and then turns to the Gotek
and says " At least I can't say you lack Drive!" 😀
Not bad 🙂
Somehow I don't think adding a gotek and zip will ever get those floppies , "hard"..??😜
DUDE!!! Dirty Disks !~! Moldy Disks!! You start this vid saying you want to test many, many disks on hand. Many, Most, Several, A Few will be moldy, dirty, or aged to the point of losing the magnetic material when touched by the head(s) the first time. How will you know if a disk is bad or the heads are dirty between disk swaps, unless you clean the heads after each read? Or lost its magnetic material? This is the Archivists ongoing issue. NO home user solutions has presented itself, as yet. Disk by disk, full circular inspection before spinning in a drive is need. This requires a microscope. Or a lot of disk cleanings between disks will be required. Or you can take a chance that the "image" of the disk will be complete and without errors. (IMO this very is hard to do, you need to test all programs with all options Most disks still seem to be 'good' but how do you know if ALL BITS are good? I would welcome a video about this on going and increasing problem. Greesewealse and all the programs you need to run the data through to get a "complete" raw data image seem to be ok. But there can not be any full/complete 'verification' of the data and the programs are fully run from emulators. A video on this deeper topic would be VERY interesting. fyi
Do you have a RLL controller that you could sell ? :)
Probably. I have a hard time telling the difference between rll and mfm cards.
just so you know those "brand new" Dallas clocks are probably new old stock which means their battery has been aging while sitting in a warehouse for years.
Spending the $30 for the necroware mod kit is much more worth it since you can change the battery in the future.
Only if you buy them from ebay or something. These are brand new. The date code is May 2023. Should last for 10 years or more. If I can find the parts for a decent price, I will make some Necroware boards and put them in my store for a more reasonable price.
@@RetroHackShackAfterHours I've gotten some where the date codes are faked. Rub the top of the chip vigorously with alcohol and see if it rubs off.
@JimLeonard Nope. Brand new from Digikey.
@@RetroHackShackAfterHours I must be missing the number, is it a 1287 or a 12887? The 1287 was discontinued decades ago. The 12887+ appears to still be available.
@@JimLeonard you are correct the 12887+ and the C version that Aaron mentions in the video are still available as new parts. Aaron already mentioned Digikey, but Mouser carries them also.
"Floppy drives _and_ a Zip drive"?
Zip drives *_ARE_* floppy drives.
Magnetic film storage is the only similarity. The definition didn't include Zip and Jaz. You can't shove a floppy diskette into a Zip drive, genius.
@@PatientXero607 (in parts so it will show up; part 1): Wrong. It's a floppy disk because it's a magnetic disk that's floppy. Zip is just the BRAND of form factor. Can you put a 5 1/4" _floppy_ disk into either Zip or a _standard_ 3.5" _floppy_ disk drive? No. Can you put an 8" _floppy_ disk into either one of those other three floppy drives? NOPE! But are those two physically bigger ones still floppy disks? YEP! So I guess it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you can put one into the other drive.... DOES it... "GENIUS"? And actually, you _can_ put a standard 3.5" floppy disk into a Zip floppy drive. (I wouldn't recommend it, though.) (Cont.)
@@PatientXero607 (part 2): By the sound of it, you've never heard of the many other form factors of _also _*_floppy_* disks out there, like the Amstrad, 2.8" like the kind that goes into the Nintendo Famicom and those Smith-Corona and Brother digital typewriters, and the three 2" floppy disks: Fujifilm LT-1, Iomega PocketZip, and the Sony/Canon VF-50. Guess what the F in "VF" stands for... "GENIUS"! (Cont.)
@@PatientXero607 (part 3): Iomega Bernoulli is _also_ a floppy disk. So Iomega made _three_ styles of floppy disk!
And of course the Jaz isn't a floppy disk; it's a HARD disk, duh. Just like the SyQuest SyJet, Castlewood Orb, and Iomega Peerless and Rev disks are... "GENIUS."
Nobody at the time called Zip drives floppy drives. They were called Zip drives to differentiate them from the older 5.25" and 3.5" drives. If you said "hey hand me a floppy disk off that table" and someone handed you a zip disk, you'd say "no, the smaller one is a floppy disk, that's a zip disk".
How are you getting ANYTHING from e-waste? All the guys around here refuse giving you anything at all, let alone hard disks in computers.
Yeah. Most places make you take the hard drives out, but sometimes I get lucky and can find one with the drives still installed.
goes straight to the dumpster .. Sorry men, this pc is slow even with w95/NT
By the way, paying the government $12.50 for the privilege of entering a privileged neighborhood does absolutely NOTHING for the environment, except to enrich the bureaucracy that convinces you that there is a crisis you need to pay for.
Love those dual floppy drive units, would love to get one. I have a case just like this, mine is just 'CMOS' branded. I didn't know there was a company named 'CMOS' kicking around, so I searched Google and let's say that have a questionable background. Anyway, great case, the foot on mine was badly rusted, so I treated it and gave it a thorough deep cleaning just the other day. Will probably move some kind of Socket 7 system into it.
Nice!
@@RetroHackShackAfterHours Just got around to finishing the video; yes, I could absolutely use the STLs for the drive rails, my case has none and I could use at least one set! My Dallas experience didn't go as well; my AMI BIOS would stick in infinite loop when entering setup with the original dead battery. After installing a socket and dropping in a 'fresh new' Dallas, the board behaved exactly the same. I scratched my head for a bit, then left for lunch and came back; suddenly it worked! I think the battery was so flat that it needed some kind of trickle charge before it would even initialize NVRAM. Something to watch out for with these 'new old stock' RTC chips. Glad you reached your goal here, its definitely a neat case for this purpose!
@orangeActiondotcom Where did you get your Dallas replacements? Mine were from Digikey and were dated mid-2023.
@@RetroHackShackAfterHours Mouser, around 2016-2017