Is Spinning Gears Really Faster?
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- Опубликовано: 13 май 2024
- How fast you turn those pedals is an important aspect to get right, especially when it comes to keeping those legs fresher for the latter stages of a ride. In this respect, is it better to spin to win or to grind it out? Bear with us... Conor is about to do some science 🔬 🧐
⏱️ Timestamps ⏱️
00:00 - Spin or Grind? The Thought Behind Both
02:27 - The Experiment - Low Cadence Effort
05:49 - High Cadence Effort
09:02 - Crunching The Numbers
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Do you prefer to spin to win or to slow things down and grind it out up those hills?
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🤔 Do you prefer to spin to win or to slow things down and grind it out up those hills?
In my area, up hills usually means using the lowest gear I have, grind by necessity and doing a lot of 🤬 . Otherwise, I prefer to neither grind or spin. There's a 'sweet spot' between the two that for me is around 83 cadence.
Spin to win :) 85-95 rpm
Spinning always better
Spinning saves energy for later, I'm sold on. However, I find it hard to spin above about 70 for more than a few minutes and 60 is more normal. Please, Connor, show me how to train to be able to spin faster.
Try doing spinning session on the Turbo trainer, without resistance or on rollers if you've got them to train you leg. That what I was adviced by one of the old lads in our club years ago & it work if you did regular enough@@emmabird9745
Used to be a grinder, got old got bad knees, learned to spin. Comfortable cadence is 80-90, a lot better on the knees… 😂
80-90 isn't even spinning, that's just normal.
He should do another ride with his preferred cadence and then compare the drop-off
Next year I suppose....
Yeah, and then another one with rest to judge the tiring effect of the first of 2 all out efforts by themselves.
So 4 runs at least 💪
always look forward to the yearly gcn spin v grinding video
Are you a spinner or a grinder?
🤣
@@gcn yes, spinner or a grinder, yes.
I always get escorted out when I grind though, so I'm Team Spin.
@gcn I'm a stay at the sweet spot exactly in between.
Back in the ‘90s (80s?) I read an interview in which someone asked Guido Bontempi if he liked to spin a small gear or push a big gear. He replied, “ I like to spin a big gear!”
Hahahah that works for some 🤣
Due to GCN cut backs , Connor now has to do his own sound and editing effects . Cracked me up
🤣 No matter the budget you can't stop this guy having fun 🙌
Preferred cadence is the key. And finding the sweet spot for how you feel on any particular day. Your strength will grow the more you build it, but you don't have to push yourself so hard to increase your strength and stamina, in fact you're more likely to go out riding more if you really enjoy the rides that you do. Ride for yourself, not for strava, or an audience. Just go out and enjoy it.
Best advice yet.
Yep.
Who's the best surfer in the world, answer, the one who enjoys themself the most.
Finding your rhythm is a great point! It can really help you build confidence and enjoy the miles 🙌
Generally do find keeping cadence high does preserve legs for later in the ride. However there can be a tradeoff with saddle comfort - spinning faster can cause you to bounce in the saddle and also reduces the amount of your weight put through the pedals, meaning more through the saddle, which can further impact saddle comfort.
Yes, I find higher cadence causes more saddle soreness!
That's an interesting trade off! Do you think it makes a difference what sort of surface you are on?
@@gcn unsure. But high cadence probably isn't best idea on gravel anyway, due to impact on traction (same reason you drive a car in a high gear/low revs in icey conditions)?
On a bit of a tangent. When I set of on a multi week tour, I have a mantra for the first three days "spin don't grind" ! It gives my fitness a chance to catch up with a loaded bike.
That's a great idea! Less fatigue over the long distance too 🙌
Here is the best piece of advice I was given when I started riding: High cadence saves your legs but taxes your heart. Low cadence taxes the legs but saves the heart. So if you're just starting out and your fitness needs a lot of work, a slower cadence is probably going to work better for you. As your fitness improves, you can work on increasing your cadence. To be fair though, no one cadence works for everyone. There are Tour pros who grind big gears and have a lot of success. Find what works for you and stick to it. The most important thing after all is that you enjoy riding your bike. It's supposed to be fun.
Raised my avg cadence from about 85 to 95 over the last year or so and it has made a difference for sure. Less power loss and easier to ride long multiple days in a row.
Tenge tenge or hot pepper challenge?
Nice video Connor. A decent look at an interesting topic and good to see something of substance again.
It's all about pedaling efficiently. Good video Conner. 😃👍
Which means it's all about finding the sweet spot between spinning and grinding. The optimum depends very much on power output. I don't believe it should vary so much between individuals as the mechanics of the human body remains similar. People who spin should work on leg strength and those who grind lung strength. The aim being to fatigue the lungs and legs at the same rate. Having said that though raising or lowering cadence is a way to find a personal optimum if someone is lacking in strength of lungs or legs. However it still doesn't get around what I believe is an optimum cadence based on the mechanics of the human body. Although some people just naturally have stronger legs or stronger lungs so I suppose cadence is a personalised thing.
I don't know if this makes any sense now it's a complex subject the more I think about it.
Thank you, Conor, for a salutary reminder and encouragement for me to up my cadence, generally.
Super fascinating content Conor and gcn! Love the gcn does science videos! Surprised as I usually like aslower cadence (I have massive quads) but now I will try and up the cadence. 'Duracell Giraffe' had me rolling on the floor! Right up there with 'Platypus Unleashed'! Great content! More please!
My prefered cadence when climbing is to grind, though I know why,
I came to gravel/road from riding BMX bikes everywhere, there's no other option when you have one gear, and so slow and steady was the way to go.
I also ONLY ride for fun or transportation, not for speed, so when you lose that motivation it really is whatever makes you comfortable.
Likely also contributing to this is, I have better legs then lungs, I often break for air more then for aches or sore muscles.
May we all enjoy how we ride! Great video!
.
I just looked at my cadence in my last triathlon and it was 99 rpm (Olympic distance, so 40 Km ride). I don't look at the numbers when racing, so that is what feels most comfortable for me. Considering that afterwards I still have a run to do, I can positively say that the higher cadence saves my legs.
love seeing this video every year
I used to ride a low cadence in the early 80s the same as many people at the time, then I did quite a bit of training on a low fixed, and learnt to spin, my results changed dramatically for the better. I found that when I used a high cadence, I tired much less than other competitors over multiple stage events. Everyone was telling me to use higher gears, 13-18, 13-21 blocks were often used at the time, but I was only using similar cadence to what modern riders are using today, it just made more sense. i went from a third cat rider to first category in the space of a few months mainly by changing my cadence.
Excellent experiment and empirical results to support the theory! Great vid Connor
Serious scientific studies show that the best cadence is the cyclist preferred cadence, high or low. This was only anedotic evidence for Connor himself.
Suggested Topic!
Could you guys do a segment on cornering. Entry point, braking point, turn-in, apex, exit point for single and decreasing radius turns?
Just watched a RUclips vid from a podcaster in Mallorca and the cornering techniques were painful to watch… like road rash or being a hood ornament, which is what can happen when people don’t understand the mechanics of turning.
People think cornering technique is racing stuff, but it can be the matter of life and death on public roads and fitness rides too.
Are there any long term studies on knee health in regards to spinning vs grinding? As one ages and one's knees start "talking back", spinning starts to feel like the only option.
Doesn't matter how many times you try this, you'll be wrong with either conclusion. None is better, each style works best for different people. It's unique to each and won't apply the same to everyone.
For some people high cadence will with light gears while opposite for others will work best.
For me personally lower cadence with heavier gears works best, I last longer and go faster, but again, this is personal and changes from person to person.
Thanks Conor and crew...presently unable to ride outdoors ...love the sound affects ! Be well
We hope you're getting some time on the turbo 💨
@@gcn I am , I got a Tacx , and I love it !! Zwiftified
My natural cadence is about 75. But I am trying to use a higher cadence so that I can protect my knees.
Craig,
If you have always ridden with high gears you should be alright just keep away from simple carbohydrates, sugar.
The harmful effect is cumulative. Food doesnt come into it@johnboom6777
Lungs will recover faster than legs.
Exactly. My lungs recover in minutes, while my legs recover in a whole day
mine is not the case.. with good train yor legs never fatigue to begin with... what you perceive as fatigue is lack of training ... do more hours so your train your legs to adapt and get stronger... i always grind and i only spin in hill climbs or sprints... grinding is ezier and less fatiguing =P just train more those legs and the lactate tolerance is a thing
Never skipp Lung Day.
@@panjimoulanamaybe. But lungs fatigue faster. Out of breath recover out of breath recover. Not very efficient.
I agree
I was advised that grinding on long rides like LEJOG was the main cause of severe cramps ,I've learnt to spin more now on hills .
That is a BIG ride 👌 Great to hear spinning got you there 🙌
Grinding is harder on my knees. Have always been a spinner.
There is an upper limit to the advantage of spinning, as very high cadence makes you use a lot of effort just to make the legs go up and down, which doesn't benefit your speed.
Gearing, or lack there of, is where people end up grinding too slow and end up over-extending around here (mountains). And no need. There are tons of options for smaller gears that still maintain top end and don't overly affect step size to 12 speeds.
Recently got a cadence sensor in preparation for a big tour. Just looking forward to figuring out what my cadence is at all. I do recall spinning faster than I did several years ago.
Putting a new spin on an old topic😂
Hi. Good video.
It is interesting to know that spinning (or at least 85-90 rpm) can have an impact on performance for longer rides. This helps me understand better how to respond at different times in the ride. Rather than just grinding in the pain cave from the get go
Back in the nineties when I headed out with SASI the did spin training where we’d select a small gear and hold around 40kph spinning about 140+ rpm
Made it easy to sit on 110 and also sprint without needing to change gear
I've always been a grinder, ex NATURAL powerlifter in my younger days, snapping crank axles.
Now 75yo using single 81 tooth self made chainring. Start off at North Head hill ( Sydney) in 3rd from bottom and after a few flat spots to enable cluster gear change end up near top on 8th from bottom where its not quite so steep.
I do frequent easy day rides in the virtual world,but when my power is digitally limited, I find my cadence drifting way up above what feels natural ITRW. I absolutely feel the difference in the low power-high cadence time vs my regular ride.
Your body will select the cadence that's right for you, there's no one rpm number that suits all, if you're 10rpm higher or lower than the guy next to you it's ok.
Actually studies show that we often choose a cadence which is a bit lower than the optimal and with some cadence training can improve quite a bit.
I'm not so sure the optimum should be so different between individuals. At the end of the day, like the mechanics of an engine, there is an optimum rpm for power output. The main reason I believe for a difference is the ability to compensate for less leg strength by using a higher rpm. The higher the rpm, the lower the efficiency, and so building leg strength might be beneficial. The aim is to achieve optimum load on the legs for every pedal stroke. Which brings me on to the fact that cadence should vary depending on power output. The optimum for efficiency is around 65rpm at 100W, 72rpm for 200W, 80rpm for 300W and so on. This explains why pros have a higher cadence because they might be averaging 300W plus so 80 - 90rpm is optimum. However for an amateur doing 150W 70rpm is much more efficient, not trying to copy the pros by doing 85rpm.
@@Ed.R There's actually a mechanical difference due to proportions of the leg bones structure, muscle insertions, size of the legs in relation to lenght of the crank, but what you totally miss is physiological differences - different proportions of different muscle type fibers, different balance of neurotransmitters (both are kinda related). Of course your muscle type can change over time with the training but the point a certain person will get (with the final balance of muscle type fibers) with a training given depends on genetics, which imo will determine what's the optimal cadence depending on strenght to endurance ratio.
@@Ed.R So you mean if I do sub 70 rpm and average 200w, it wouldnt be optimal? Then you are probably having a bad bike fit. I do 200w and sub 70 rpm as a slow ride.
@andersnyberg4034 I've not doubt I probably don't have the best bike fit. The numbers I quoted come from a graph of maximum pedalling efficiency rpm against power output. These values seem to be what I personally find optimal.
Obviously you might be different. I'm not suggesting there is an optimum power output if that's what you were assuming. I'm talking about a relationship between cadence and power.
Unrelatedly Conor, I have been around bike fitting for decades and a couple of comments about your bike fit. I like you aren't running much drop. I believe this is best.
However, your reach looks to be a full 20mm short. You look to be much too scrunched up saddle tip to stem/handlebar center. Another way to consider fit for a tall man...I am tallish as well...control of upper body mass is an isosceles triangle. Your torso aka back is one leg of the triangle. Your arm drape is the second top leg of the triangle, and your 'base' of the triangle is from your sitbones to contact point with hands on the hoods.
A wider base of this triangle best stabilizes force for the lower body aka applying force to the pedals. To me, your narrower base of the triangle introduces too much tension and stress in your body when laying down the watts. It is also less aerodynamic with the same level of drop compared to ba bit more reach. OMO. You can compare your riding position with many of the taller greats and of course Lance at 5'9" didn't ride much saddle to bar drop and rode a 58cm Madone with 130mm stem. In other words, he knew what he was doing. Don't have to go full superman aka George Hincapie early in his career, but a bit more reach I believe you may find more comfortable and likely a bit faster with same drop.
On the spin to win front, genetics is big. For me, its no debate. As a senior rider, I can't keep up without spinning but my body type aka Chris Froome has always directed me this way.
Lance mentioned previously of course, he won many TdF's with a spinning formula. Stark contract with Jan Ulrich who of course was born to mash. Genetics on some level is not to be denied but within the framework of neuromuscular coordination, I believe even more of a native masher can learn to spin a shorter gear faster...but tendency of a physically stronger man to turn a taller gear at lower RPM in my experience runs deep.
Love your videos. Your goodness as a person comes through the camera lens.
Generally a spinner, but there is a limit. I've a single speed cx bike with gearing for off road uphill. False flat descents on tarmac are destructive - not steep enough to freewheel, but very little resistance from pedals. A few mins of that and my hip flexors are aching!
I am naturally a spinner. About 90-95 rpms. But when I got into gravel riding with the steep sharp climbs, which most required grinding out the gears to get over I noticed that my normal cadence dropped. SO even out on the road my cadence would be now high 80's low 90's. To me it shows that you adjust to the type of riding fairly easily.
I would interested in how these figures change with riders of different leg length 🤔.
I had preferred low, but during knee injury recovery, I've moved to higher cadence to take some pressure off the knee. Once it is better I'll probably end up in some middle ground.
I like to sit forward on my bike and put the cleats back max. I prefer to keep a lower cadence because you don't waste energy. It just give you more power while riding steady and you keep that power contact all the way. But I also have a high peak power and it comes naturally to press a bit. If you are leaner, then it's perhaps easier for you to spin like a washing machine.
Ah excellent, my day isnt complete without another "GCN butchers science" episode... :)
Outcome is consistent with exercise physio mechanisms associated with muscle fatigue. Nice touch would have been to circle back to this at the end...
Ahhhh we are always guaranteed to see this topic once every a year.
I wonder what new research has emerged…
I just go by the motto : make things easiest for you. Uphills? High cadence, flat roads? Low/medium cadence? Driving past annoying drivers stuck in traffic? *loud freehub noises activate*
I typically spin around 90s but good to also practice low cadence for when you really need it 😊 Pete 🚴🏻👍😊
I have noticed as I am getting older I am lowering my cadence. If I spin 110 Froome style my heart rate is high 180s where if I keep little slower in the 90s I can keep it in the 150-160s. I have started doing intervals at low and fast cadence recently it's interesting.
I prefer to spin more, rather than grind. But my preffered cadence is usually 80-90. I do sometimes drop my cadence to 60-70 when I'm out on a leisurely ride with someone wo is generally a lot slower than myself. But they are still very enjoable rides at a lower cadence and pace. Great video Connor.👍
I’ve found that as I’ve aged (currently 57) grinding out a big gear makes me more prone to muscle cramps. Spinning up the hills seems to help with that.
For anyone not racing but cycling for fitness, I don't think it matters too much either way, but decide if you're more interested in building strength from low cadence or cardiovascular endurance from high cadence.
Tested this out myself yesterday afternoon during an online race - Bormio to Passo Stelvio. usually I will stay in the big ring for as long as possible as I find the low cadence comfortable. Yesterday I kept the small ring for around 95% of the ride - just a few brief semi flat parts when I changed over.
The actual time and effort was a huge surprise (almost 30 mins PB from 4 weeks ago. Under an hour 18 mins (4th place) compared to almost an hour 47 mins previous). Also ended up with an FTP upgrade as well as all time 30 mins and 20 mins outputs.
Obviously the race scenario played a part in the effort level, but last month I would have classed that climb as a hard effort so the cadence change did make a huge difference.
20.79 km
1:17:57
1,483 m
Zero cadence downhill is the easiest of all.
I had to repeatedly remind myself when I started cycling to start slow and spin fast, especially on long climbs. So easy to burn all your matches quickly by grinding
Good video. Just for me my preferred cadence is 82 … but i have to grind up hills like 50 rpm. Age 67 and heavy. When young and racer is still had to grind uphill. But could certainly spin ..race cadence about 90-100
I prefer both grinding and spinning my single speed 😅
High cadence hurts my knees more than heavy low cadence but I've had major knee surgeries on one which has slowly caused degradation on the other. I def prefer a lower cadence around 80-85 rpm
As a single speed rider my cadence can go from low to high depending the terrain!!! Never in the right gear so it spin and spin harder more power when the hills or elevation begins!!! Great video 👍as always!!!
How many times did we have this video, two, three times? I think, the TLDR is: There is no right or wrong answer and it depends on your physique, type of riding and probably even the situation and your current condition during the ride. When your legs are totally shot or you bonk, I find it even harder to grind or get out of the saddle (sore muscles don't like the added strain), when not, I actually like it to mix it up and vary the load, get out of the saddle, change position - or just avoid shifting to the small chainring to push over a small crest. Same goes for staying in a higher gear.
Less "cycling rules", more personal preference and intuition. Part of the fun is finding your own way, figuring things out.
It might be related to the physics of the wind resistance. On the flat the primary resistance is due to the drag force which is proportional to velocity squared. You feel each surge when you are going fast and you hear pulses of the wind. It could be that you slow down because there is a longer lag time between down-strokes when pedaling slow and then the resistance isn't there when you start to apply the force and by the time you get through the stroke and accelerate your done with the stroke. When you are going up a climb the force of gravity that you are working against is constant.
I’ve always struggled with high cadence…………come to think about it I’ve also always struggled with low cadence! 😂😂 great video Connor
Mix it Baby !!
I usually try to be in the highest gear possible at any moment, so I’d say I’m more of a grinder? Uphill is always a grind even in the lowest gear 😂
This subject is start to be coverd now and the answer is - it is personal and don't try to force yourself to a certain cadence. Go for what is natural.
My baseline is to check my speed after gearing up. Is it going faster, my gear was to low. After over 20 years with deraileurs and about the same gaps between the gears I am pretty confident in it.
Did I miss something? This comparison is only valid if the power outputs during the one-hour intervals were the same. (You could cruze easily at 60 RPM for an hour, and be very fresh for the second 5-minute effort.)
Was thinking exactly the same thing. Surely, it really depends on the power you are putting out during that 1 hour. Okay, grinding must fatigue the leg muscles more at mid to higher powers, but there must be a point at some lower power where lifting your legs up and down fatigues more at high rpm than low. No idea what that power is though ;)
5:54, I believe he meant ‘like the Energizer Bunny’ - different brand of batteries 😂
Lmao
Nope, look it up.
When I was young, I was riding 100-120 all of the time.
And that was with long (177.5) cranks.
Needless to say, I can't do that anymore.
Very interesting. I prefer lower cadence as it's very hilly around here and going uphill is bad enough without burning all your matches.
I think of it like this, power is torque x RPM, Torque comes from force, from a higher % muscle utilisation, RPM uses less muscle, but faster.
So for putting the "load" on the cardio system, and saving the muscles, spin. When you need to put the power down, drop the RPM a bit.
"DONT THINK" ,,'FEEEEEL',🤔
Or Just Ride The Dam Thing,🧐
the most comfortable speed is the most comfortable YOU, and your Style for the Win 🏆 💯 👌🏼
6:31 What is that funnel locking structure in the background? A water tower?
The cadence number is immaterial, your self selected cadence at which you feel most efficient and comfortable is best
Lower cadence at higher gear is better for me. What was the difference in how far Conor travelled at the two cadences over that time?
If I'm pacing up a climb on the small ring at 250w, rear cog somewhere near the middle, high cadence, and then change to the big ring and grind at 250w, which one is faster?
Funny that Connor is doing a comparison with a mini cooper. Would he fit in a mini cooper 😂
Conor hasn't been able to fit in a Mini Cooper since about age 6.
@@andrewmcalister3462 😂
only if it has a sunroof I think.
When I was doing Ironman triathlons (I know, I know) I used a high cadence around 100 rpm. now that I just ride I have dialled in a lower cadence of around 85-95 rpm naturally. I find it the right balance of muscular and aerobic systems. That said my aerobic capacity has lowered as a result.
I've tried both, mainly going up hills. With spinning, I hated it and was slow. With a normal cadence, still hated it, but was slightly less slow. Maybe I should work on my fitness a bit all things considered.
There has to be some perspective, high cadence at what speed in what gearing vs low cadence in what gearing at the same particular speed to determine the difference over the 1hr period, with a 10 meter sprint at the end
Learning to utilize a high cadence and have definitely noticed less fatigue and faster hill climbs
Right cadence means an ideal power output with the lowest legs wear possible. Too high a cadence is better than too low a cadence for both acute and chronic legs wear.
What effect does grinding or spinning have on heart rate
My fitter told me to swap between the two. Often. Get tired doing higher cadence, switch to low, and back and forth
Recently started increasing the cadence and reducing the default gear I cycle. I now feel fresh for the entire ride and my avg speed is the same. High cadence all the way 👌
How much distance did you cover on high cadence and on low cadence?
Nice orange shoes. Who makes them please?
It obviously varies for each individual. There's a sweet spot, which I find to be 85-90, but a bigger rider with stronger legs I suspect will be lower. As a small (short) rider weighing 55kg I just don't have the leg strength to grind, so I rely on my aerobic capacity to spin. I'm the same with running, even at a jogging pace of 5:15m/km my cadence is 175+. I think if you're experienced at either cycling or running you will find your optimum without over thinking it. The body is pretty good at working out what's the most efficient way of moving.
My 4iiii power meter really helped me see this in real time
The Met Trenta looks ridiculous on Connors head. 😂
Did Connor just poke himself in the eye when putting on his glasses? 😂
Short cranks will make a difference? If you look at Conor's legs his thighs never come close to horizontal, so he is on short cranks at 2 metres even 175mm cranks might be considered short ? A short rider using the same crank length might do better grinding rather than spinning? Trying to spin on long cranks not ideal? Hence the move towards short cranks ?
When I'm on my indoor trainer, my preferred cadence seems to be around 85rprm. When I take my bike off the trainer and head outdoors, my cadence drops to about 75rpm. Anyone have any thoughts on the difference?
yes
Spinning a faster cadence definitely helps me. If I let my cadence drop on a group ride, I’ll fatigue early and get dropped. I also have short legs for my height, so it doesn’t take as much effort to move them fast.
I suspect the key is optimum cadence. Certainly my prefferred cadence is about 10 below optimum. Or at least from some rough checks i have done.
What's a gear? #fixiegang
Since Zwift, I've gotten better with my RPM. My climbing has gotten better with 80 - 90 rpm. Too high my asthma flares up more. I don't go by watts heart rate and rpm.
Would've been interesting to see the kJ difference between the two rides, if there were any
I was always told spinning was better but by nature I'm a grinder.