Rob where have you been all my life? Loved how dark you went on the Pippin and Sam bit (and Louise's horror at it). This is like the after dark edition of each of your podcasts and I'm here for it. Great to just see you three shooting the shit.
I've run a number of Necromunda campaigns. It's not as rough as it looks. The thing about Necromunda is that it's like a role-playing game. You get to choose what you use in a campaign and what you don't. Just start small
I played Necromunda back in 95 and loved it. I returned to the hobby 4 years ago and have slowly been buying Necromunda in the background the whole time. I just started painting a gang and terrain, and I have been putting together a campaign with some friends. I love the lore and setting.
I started playing in my first Necromunda campaign 2 weeks ago, and I've been having a great time. I did it with the rules from only 2 books: the core rulebook and the Escher book. My advice if you are starting out is: 1. If you are going to play in a campaign, someone with some experience should run it. And you should not read any of the skirmish rules. Read the campaign-specific rules, but you don't need to know them inside and out. Just get the general idea. 2. If you are going to play skirmish, skip all the campaign rules. 3. Skip all the vehicle rules. 4. Skip the skills and weapon traits. You can read them as you need them when creating your gang and during games. 4. Figure out what gang you want to play (lots of online resources for helping) and get access to their book/rules. Find a sample starter list online and run it. 5. Play one game. Get everything wrong and ask a million questions. 6. Re-read the same rules you read before you played. They should mostly stick now. I think the toughest part for me to get my head around is the injury rules. It seems complicated, but I assume it's that way because of the campaign system. In 40k/AoS/TOW what happens to a model when it loses all its wounds is irrelevant; it's just out of the battle. In Necromunda it matters -- a LOT. Learning Necromunda may be a little harder than other GW games, but it is very rewarding. Thought I do agree with Peach that they should have premade gangs in the box sets (Hive War, Secundus) and maybe even in the gang boxes.
I don't think people talk enough about summary/cheat sheets as well. People make tons of print outs that you can download and print out that collate a lot of the things like action types or whatever all in one list so you can just have it ready to go and no one has to go book diving. I've taught a friend Warcry and 1st ed Kill Team specifically using 1 or 2 page print outs of rules (and often abridging some of the more advanced stuff to keep the flow going) so we didn't have to stop and pick up a book. I've watched enough peoples eyes glaze over while I try to find the relevant thing to know that's the number one fun killer, especially for new players.
This is a good way of doing it based on my experience. The hive war box gives you a skirmish game you can play on your coffee table. I did that with my girlfriend who has never played a wargame before. When you're comfortable you can add the campaign rules. I think about it as a skirmish game with roleplay elements. The art, stories and minatures around this game are inspired and I love games fought over multiple storeys.
So that's the "call back" in Two Towers to Haleth and Hama who are Helm's sons. The princes are going to be in the movie (as far as we can tell) and I would imagine they are keeping Hera back for a fancy Forge World resin miniature - much like they did with Helm the Wraith who was announced recently. I am very eager to dive into the new set and the new edition when it lands. Love myself some Middle-earth.
Great chat about Necromunda! I share your frustration with trying to get into the game. I think what it boils down to is that Necromunda is a game in the same spirit as Rogue Trader - it's an RPG first, a miniatures game second. If you let go of the idea of playing every turn exactly by the rules, it starts to become a lot easier to access. That's the theory anyway. My brain hates the idea of running a game "wrong".
Hi guys, big fan! Are these episodes going to be uploaded in an audio only format? I only really have time to listen when i'm driving for work and i'm missing your Juggz
"The Fuck Bunker" 😂😂 C'mon now, we all know that somebody has shouted "FOR THE EMPEROR!!" as they've hit the vinegar strokes. Great episode as always guys 🙌🏻
Ash Waste Nomads are my favourite Necromunda miniatures and the exotic critters. I think its the only GW game where every faction has something you'd like to buy.
Blaze can be summarized as when the blazed character is activated: They take a hit, then they move 2d6" in a random direction, then they get a chance to put the fire out. Everything else is describing specific interactions with other rules, when a character will not be able to move, what they do if they get close to an edge, can they get help to put the fire out etc. My take on the system is that it is one of the two spiritual successors of the original Warhammer 40k: Rogue Trader, a game that was somewhere between a wargame and an rpg. 40K 2nd edition and on is what happens when you build the game around larger armies and streamline the rules. Necromunda is what happens when you make the game explicitly about individual fighters and keep the detail. It's also the current game that GW makes which holds to the hobby/craft ethos side of early GW. It's about letting you build what you want and giving you rules that are flexible enough to model what you want to build (I can't think of any other current game that has a flexible ruleset for custom vehicles for instance). This approach necessitates detail and detail comes with complexity, one of the key ways you mitigate complexity in a tabletop rpg (a game which is going for a similar amount of detail) is to abstract and generalise rules and leave things to the players discretion. This works in rpgs because the relationship between the players is not adversarial. The requirements of it being a wargame mean that you are stuck with specifying every rule interaction explicitly and with a very high minimum complexity compared to either a tabletop rpg or a wargame that is more concerned with being a contest than an immersive experience. That's all to say that there is room to rewrite the rules for better clarity, but there is much less scope to reduce the complexity, if you are looking to keep the product as a wargame that produces an rpg like experience.
Rob, you are the go to for rules, changes etc for.my son and i.thanks for your work and always keeping us updated and entertained. We have learned a lot! Thanks also to Peachy and Louise we are fans of your shows.and juggz , From mt hood oregon :)
I think the Necromunda releases are more interesting than 40K because Necromunda is more character based than squad based. Each mini is generally more unique and characterful.
Glad to hear a Necromunda chat going on, it's the best game! I've never had a bad game (plenty of games that have gone badly, but that's different!) they're always eventful and ridiculous! Also, Confrontation was one of the first GW games I ever played! My mates & I were so happy when the Necromunda models were released as we had Confrontation gangers!
…unless, an evil, powerful necromancer were to bring Boromir back from the dead. If only there was a necromancer character in Lord of the Rings with a grudge against Dark Galadriel for taking his One Ring…
Regarding the War of the Rohirrim starter box not featuring Hera: So, it features, Haleth and Hama, who *are* in the animation, *and* the accounts of the war from the books. Hera, however, only plays a relatively small role in the book version. So, it wouldn't surprise me entirely if GW had put together the starter box with the two sons of Helm before knowing Hera was (going by the trailers) going to be the main focus. The major Rohirric figure in the written version that we haven't seen a sign of in the previews as far as I know, is Frealaf, Helm's nephew that ultimately wins the war, after (Spoilers perhaps?) Haleth dies defending the doors of the Meduseld, Hama freezes to death on a sorty out of Helm's deep for supplies, and Helm freezes to death in the night on one of his own sorties to kill Dunlendings.
My take on why the local gaming store doesn't have a regular Necromunda thing is this: In order to play a really good, immersive game of Necromunda it's necessary to have a well built board with multiple levels. You can play the game on a more 2D board but it's a far more rewarding and narrative game when played with multiple levels. Building and maintaining an interesting board like that is quite a bit of time and money investment. Your average game store will just put out a few bits of scenery and that's kind of uninspiring compared to what some people properly into Necromunda build for their own groups and what have you. By comparison, 40k, five bits of scenery on a mat and go. Scenery wise 40k is less involved.
My favourite gangs are Cawdor and Delaque for the same reasons as Louise; runners up are the Squats. But more importantly, as Peachy was saying, anything goes, so I can just do whatever tickles my fancy! As for settings, at this point it's Primus and the Ash Wastes for me. I've got too many custom vehicle ideas that I want to build - I bought one of the Kharadron airships to turn into a Delaque sand-submarine that uses kite-sails to chase its targets down.
Fun episode to listen too, especially since Im currently building a Venator gang for Necromunda based on the Votaan Killteam with the coats. (Of course themed after Firefly)
!!! Frostpunk mentioned! Its AMAZING :D I'm building an Orlock gang for Necromunda at the moment & am thinking of making them frostpunk themed (like they got stuck in a freezer district or something, idk im handwaving it a bit!)
Munda is one of my all time faves, we do campaigns from Primus out to the wastes and back again. We love munda at monstrous light games (but we also play mordheim weekly)
Hello Juggz, I enjoy the show a lot. Been a Necromunda fan for ages, played the original back in the 90s and played the 2017 from release up to this day. Only miniature game I’ve given this much dedication to. Reason for gaming - great gaming group, fast paced skirmish game and a wonderful narrative setting. There is bunch of us that keeps making narrative for our yearly campaigns and a couple of solid rule-champions that update good house rules for easier play. A couple of suggestions: 1. Have a couple of experienced and fun gamers run the game with you. 2. One of the problems with the 90s version were line-of-sight and degree of cover. We removed that problem completely in 2017 with laser pointers and laser lines. 3. Run a 500 point game. You can then run a Champion as the HQ, a couple of gangers and a couple of juves (if available) to avoid Bottling (losing) the game, but still get a gist of gameplay. 4. Run a Stand Off Scenario, followed up by a Trap Scenario. These two are bare bones of several other scenarios available - the first is shoot as many of the opponent away without bottling and the other is classic ambush. 5. Thumb rule we picked up: Just figure out how many dice to roll and just roll. Then look up the rules if needed. Loads of ones, a miss. Lots of cover and long distance with an average ganger with normal rifle, probably needs a six.
Ok, so Rob is saying we need a Spearhead version of Necromunda, got it! In all seriousness I agree with most of your points. Necromunda is so good on so many levels (I have tons of stuff for it, going back to the original box game and metal gangs.) and the rules and how they're laid out really does it a disservice sometimes. A little aside, in film there is a similar saying that you always need to cut your favorite shot in order to make the movie better as a whole.
So happy to watch another epsiode of Juggz; lots of interesting discussion points this week and hilarious as usual. I'm bored with 40K these days but love Necromunda, the problem is that it is a struggle to find anyone to play with. My experiences suggest that 1) the game is really daunting to get into because there are so many rules (which are great for narrative flavour but scary at first sight) spread across so many books. 2) Its a lot of stuff to carry; all those books plus a lot of scenery, even if you only need a handful or so of minis. I find myself carrying much more weight and bulk to a games night than if i was playing 40K. 3) There is a perception that Necromunda needs to be played as part of a structured league/campaign; nobody seems interested in pick up games or doing a casual league where you can drop in or out. Question to Rob: Did you see anyone wearing boob armour in the miniwargaming **** bunker?
There are a lot of days I wake up and wish I could do games as a full time job, but hearing y’all guys describe it as work really takes the romance out of the idea 😂
I played a couple of games of Necromunda back during the original release and I enjoyed it. I liked that, much like Mordheim, it was detailed "enough" for it to interesting to dive into and tell your own stories. I think all of the new miniatures are gorgeous - especially the Goliaths and the Squats (and the Palanites I guess haha) but I just can't get my head around the rules. I think I'd need someone to walk me through it so I could see it played to grok it.
Re: Necromunda being an imposing game system... just saying that OnePageRules have recently broken their "Gangs of New Eden" faction down into individal legally-distinct Necromunda gangs. That + their campaign rules, you've got a pretty approachable and capable substitute.
So, my necromunda experience. Last month i got myself Hive Secundus, those Van Saar looked dope and wanted them. But, yes, the rules are complicated and scattered. That wasn't an impediment for me, i like reading game rules (eventhough I never get to play them). So read the hive secundus book, told a friend of mine that plays a lot of high level 40k, so he can be my necromunda rules pupil, and we started a hive secundus campaign. This sparked the interest of many people at our local game store. So we (I) are expecting to do a campaign. But i know this next months i'll have to teach dozens of players (that's why I wanted a rules nerd so he can help me with them). And today they notified me that the corebook arrived (for legal reasons i can not say how much rules i have read) and i'm so excited. It's not easy to get in, but the games i've had have been so much fun, and i'm already preparing the campaing (with events and narrative). But I know that if i hadn't spend hours reading, watching videos and seeing reviews this would not go through. And as a note, to my english speaking friends, Necromunda is an English only game, so i will have to translate them to spanish so the old guard can play. PD: Forgive my written English, it's my third language and it's been a while since I've written something.
Also, i've played a lot of warhammer games (40k, AoS, Spearhead, killteam, underworlds, warcry [i might be the only person on earth that doesn't like it, but i know why people do]) and some warlord games (bolt action, SPQR, Hail Caesar), and A Song of Ice and Fire. And necromunda is easily in my top favorite games (hobby and gamplay).
My regular gaming group started up last November into Necromunda after the 2023 core book release. You really only need one or two people to own that book, and then everyone just needs their gang book and you're good to go. I played OG Necromunda back when I was in my 20's and it was like coming home to play it again. It's gotten me out of the house once a week, and I have fun whether I win or lose. The stories your group tells from week to week are the absolute best part of the game. And if you can find an Arbitrator that runs it almost like an RPG, the game can absolutely shine!
I don't have any experience with Necromunda but I have played games with heavier rules sets. What I notice is that if you have a rule book that is nicely laid out and that is intuitive, it doesn't really matter. The hardest thing is finding time and getting through the rules and I think that is the biggest problem with heavier rules systems.
Every model is a Necromunda model. Every wargamer is a Necromunda player... eventually. Currently painting four different gangs after coming back to it from the original edition. The old combat system was clunky but to me felt more like a struggle between two fighters, especially the way parry worked.
You should 100% play it. The rules are…. Wonky but that’s half the fun, “guidelines” or “open to interpretation” is the best way to describe them and we (most of the groups I’ve played with) are happy to just make them fit the theme of the narrative.
I remember at Warammer Fest 2017 (I think) I was gonna go up to Louise to say how damn rad her Grendl Grendlsen entry was for Golden Daemon. However she was having a very enthusiastic conversation with someone about how awesome the bomb rats were for Cawdor and I didn't want to spoil that moment!
The Necromunda ruleset could definitely do with some streamlining. The cognitive load is really high just with the basic ruleset, never mind adding in additional rules from the many, many supplemental books. But it does generate some absolutely hilarious gaming moments, and if you can be arsed to set up your own campaign setting and tweak the campaign rules so it mirrors the old system more, it’s awesome!
Peach is right that Necromunda proper came out in '95 (after 40k 2nd ed.), but Confrontation was its precursor, and that was Rogue Trader era. :) Edit: Peach got there eventually - I should have trusted him and waited to comment! Edit edit: Never been to the MWG bunker, so... no, I have never. Compelling, though.
The impossible fortress could be the weirdest necromunda style game...but you get bonus points for being nice and promoting minions having good HR for your gang etc.
Necromunda is my favourite game (maybe second favourite behind Blood Bowl) but it really is an absolute nightmare to get into. The relaunch was handled ridiculously stupidly with the initial rules, then Gang War books for each gang. We then got the Rulebook and Gangs of the Underhive double book set, and at this point, the game was actually nicely playable. Then they started on all the House of books, and bollocksed it all up again through Ash Wastes, but now the Core Rules book kinda reset everything again so you can get away with that, and your gang's "codex". And now Secundus looks like it's making a mess of things again. My play group has decided to stay a "season" behind. We waited until all the Ash Wastes content was released before starting to play that (though it's arguably incomplete since Delaque never got their specialist vehicles). Great game, but yeah, it's a nightmare to get into. (Although community edited rulebooks have made it MASSIVELY easier.)
I love Necromundas models, lore, even rules mostly, but as a person who’s works a lot, even in shorter campaigns it’s really easy to fall behind in any campaign, to the point where you basically can’t do anything but lose
Flint knapping is great, I took a class on it in graduate school. I was rubbish at it but it was fun and some people were quite good at figuring out how the stone should break.
Brilliant video / podcast. I love listening to you guys. Thanks for this. Awesome content. This is the ultimate tabletop games podcast. I love Robs comment on the complexity of Necromunda rules, “…I open the rule book, and I think, Fuck off!…”
I thought exactly the same thing when I saw the new episode of Juggz was out so much that I had to tell my girlfriend that she would have to wait because I was busy 😮🎉
More Juggz, marvellous. I have always liked Necromunda minis, but was warned off as the rules were' challenging' . So I stick with Kill Team and Warcry.
Necromunda was born from a previous game, Confrontation, which was published over several White Dwarf issues in the early 90s. I still love the 90s Necromunda models, absolute peak 90s Gw minis (the Escher being the pick of the bunch) and some wonderful artwork spawned from it too.
My take on the current state of Necromunda: Because it's so much better with loads of cool scenery, lots of new players will seek out an established group to play with, instead of starting with a friend. That means you have experienced players to guide you, and the "House ruling" you talked about earlier is taken care of by the Arbiter. (Did you come across the fact that the Necromunda campaign rules say you *must* have an arbiter? You haven't got to that yet...) I think perhaps that's the design goal behind the wide range of different source books, campaign settings and so-on. It's more like an RPG in that the games designers expect you to have an Arbiter running a campaign. Pick up games are not so common. The Secundus box does a nice job of dovetailing new players in a little with the Genestealer player being the Arbiter, and the Van Saar player having a wee one-player campaign.
So love Necromunda setting and lore, rules wise One page Rules do a skirmish system called Grimdark Future Firefight. They have an online army builder and the rules are straight forward. Also very budget friendly.
Sounds like Louise would like the How to Make Everything channel and their Reset Series, where they rediscover ancient skills materials like Flintknapping
I definitely agree with Rob, I think the one of the major things missing from GW products is a "getting started" kind of mindset. You are almost entirely reliant on playing with someone that has already played the game or tutorial videos in hopes you can follow along. Necromunda isn't the most unreadable rule book they've put out, but I'd still love a getting started or like a "sample game" run through, even if it's just a couple turns. A getting started version would be better, because you can shave down rules and if people only want to play rules light Necromunda, they can! I mean, it seems most people would rather play a rules light 40k... hence the popularity of one page rules system. The worst rulebook I think I've run into is Legions Imperialis. When reading the rulebook for Necromunda, it does feel like a lot... but I also feel like I could figure it out! Sure, I'll make mistakes during gameplay and have to reference the book, but I really think I could figure it out. Legions Imperialis, I don't even think I could competently build a force... there's SO much dead space in that rulebook too. They definitely could have written a sample game in there or a sampe couple of turns to get a step by step feel of how it would play. I think even Fire & Jade Spearhead rules ran you through something in that rulebook. LI is the worst rulebook I've read from GW so far I think... On a side note. LOVE the idea of the Impossible fortress where everyone gets on. I'd have to go look it up, but isn't there an "impossible" Spire on Necromunda, where things are decided democratically and the Imperium just hates them? Double side note: Necromunda is older than '95. The rules appeared in a White Dwarf in the early 90's and there was some work on a game called Confrontation(?)... I think. But yeah, the rules appeared much earlier than '95 before they got an official release. (Sorry if someone already mentioned this.)
As a dyslexic ADHDer I find the Necromunda rulebook physically difficult to read, black and brown on geey. And shiny pages…. The alternative and combined versions of the rules that are out there are considerably more accessible.
"The Emperor protects... but not tonight!" I think I died.
I died on the Blood for the Blood God
Rob where have you been all my life? Loved how dark you went on the Pippin and Sam bit (and Louise's horror at it).
This is like the after dark edition of each of your podcasts and I'm here for it. Great to just see you three shooting the shit.
“Poor Miniac” 12:48 Savage 😂
Still feel bad for em... gah. But yes.. epic slide in there, Robert lol
I seen this comment before listening to the episode. Wasn't prepared for just how Miniac would come up 😂😂
I've run a number of Necromunda campaigns. It's not as rough as it looks. The thing about Necromunda is that it's like a role-playing game. You get to choose what you use in a campaign and what you don't. Just start small
It is exactly that, it is closer to D&D imo.
DS9: “Best Star Trek franchise ever.” Yes, Rob! ❤❤❤
I played Necromunda back in 95 and loved it. I returned to the hobby 4 years ago and have slowly been buying Necromunda in the background the whole time. I just started painting a gang and terrain, and I have been putting together a campaign with some friends. I love the lore and setting.
I have missed your Juggz so much - now I am plunging face-first into your Juggz and it is glorious.
I started playing in my first Necromunda campaign 2 weeks ago, and I've been having a great time. I did it with the rules from only 2 books: the core rulebook and the Escher book. My advice if you are starting out is:
1. If you are going to play in a campaign, someone with some experience should run it. And you should not read any of the skirmish rules. Read the campaign-specific rules, but you don't need to know them inside and out. Just get the general idea.
2. If you are going to play skirmish, skip all the campaign rules.
3. Skip all the vehicle rules.
4. Skip the skills and weapon traits. You can read them as you need them when creating your gang and during games.
4. Figure out what gang you want to play (lots of online resources for helping) and get access to their book/rules. Find a sample starter list online and run it.
5. Play one game. Get everything wrong and ask a million questions.
6. Re-read the same rules you read before you played. They should mostly stick now.
I think the toughest part for me to get my head around is the injury rules. It seems complicated, but I assume it's that way because of the campaign system. In 40k/AoS/TOW what happens to a model when it loses all its wounds is irrelevant; it's just out of the battle. In Necromunda it matters -- a LOT.
Learning Necromunda may be a little harder than other GW games, but it is very rewarding. Thought I do agree with Peach that they should have premade gangs in the box sets (Hive War, Secundus) and maybe even in the gang boxes.
I don't think people talk enough about summary/cheat sheets as well. People make tons of print outs that you can download and print out that collate a lot of the things like action types or whatever all in one list so you can just have it ready to go and no one has to go book diving. I've taught a friend Warcry and 1st ed Kill Team specifically using 1 or 2 page print outs of rules (and often abridging some of the more advanced stuff to keep the flow going) so we didn't have to stop and pick up a book. I've watched enough peoples eyes glaze over while I try to find the relevant thing to know that's the number one fun killer, especially for new players.
This is a good way of doing it based on my experience. The hive war box gives you a skirmish game you can play on your coffee table. I did that with my girlfriend who has never played a wargame before. When you're comfortable you can add the campaign rules. I think about it as a skirmish game with roleplay elements. The art, stories and minatures around this game are inspired and I love games fought over multiple storeys.
Or...play OPR Gang Wars for free 😅
Thank you for a new episode! This is making me feel better while ill
So that's the "call back" in Two Towers to Haleth and Hama who are Helm's sons. The princes are going to be in the movie (as far as we can tell) and I would imagine they are keeping Hera back for a fancy Forge World resin miniature - much like they did with Helm the Wraith who was announced recently. I am very eager to dive into the new set and the new edition when it lands. Love myself some Middle-earth.
Great chat about Necromunda! I share your frustration with trying to get into the game. I think what it boils down to is that Necromunda is a game in the same spirit as Rogue Trader - it's an RPG first, a miniatures game second.
If you let go of the idea of playing every turn exactly by the rules, it starts to become a lot easier to access. That's the theory anyway. My brain hates the idea of running a game "wrong".
Gandalf: “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?"
Sam: "...............yes"
Haven't listened to a single word yet, but the answer to the question is yes. Very much yes!
Looking forward to peachys upcoming video “how I play with myself “
Hahaha I’ll need an only fans for that
Hi guys, big fan! Are these episodes going to be uploaded in an audio only format? I only really have time to listen when i'm driving for work and i'm missing your Juggz
Best way to play/learn necromunda is to have a friend who already knows the rules I've played 1 game and loved it
"The Fuck Bunker" 😂😂
C'mon now, we all know that somebody has shouted "FOR THE EMPEROR!!" as they've hit the vinegar strokes.
Great episode as always guys 🙌🏻
There's only one carpark for Louise and Peachy to fight in. The Warhammer World carpark!
Great! But where are the Spotify uploads? (I think episode 11 is the latest I found from there.)
come here to ask this
Theres a severe lack of man boob armour in fantasy #hardtobeamaninthehobby
and they've been erasing the nipples off the men's armor as of late too! #freethenipple
37:35 "I spent the entire week thinking about how to pivot." Rob is getting them Napoleonics wargamer muscles going in his body.
Just stop nuln oil !!! It was there all along!
Ash Waste Nomads are my favourite Necromunda miniatures and the exotic critters. I think its the only GW game where every faction has something you'd like to buy.
Blaze can be summarized as
when the blazed character is activated:
They take a hit,
then they move 2d6" in a random direction,
then they get a chance to put the fire out.
Everything else is describing specific interactions with other rules, when a character will not be able to move, what they do if they get close to an edge, can they get help to put the fire out etc.
My take on the system is that it is one of the two spiritual successors of the original Warhammer 40k: Rogue Trader, a game that was somewhere between a wargame and an rpg. 40K 2nd edition and on is what happens when you build the game around larger armies and streamline the rules. Necromunda is what happens when you make the game explicitly about individual fighters and keep the detail.
It's also the current game that GW makes which holds to the hobby/craft ethos side of early GW. It's about letting you build what you want and giving you rules that are flexible enough to model what you want to build (I can't think of any other current game that has a flexible ruleset for custom vehicles for instance). This approach necessitates detail and detail comes with complexity, one of the key ways you mitigate complexity in a tabletop rpg (a game which is going for a similar amount of detail) is to abstract and generalise rules and leave things to the players discretion. This works in rpgs because the relationship between the players is not adversarial. The requirements of it being a wargame mean that you are stuck with specifying every rule interaction explicitly and with a very high minimum complexity compared to either a tabletop rpg or a wargame that is more concerned with being a contest than an immersive experience.
That's all to say that there is room to rewrite the rules for better clarity, but there is much less scope to reduce the complexity, if you are looking to keep the product as a wargame that produces an rpg like experience.
Rob, you are the go to for rules, changes etc for.my son and i.thanks for your work and always keeping us updated and entertained. We have learned a lot! Thanks also to Peachy and Louise we are fans of your shows.and juggz , From mt hood oregon :)
Spending time with juggz is my happy place.
„Doomscrolling-psycho-phone-gremlin“ sounds like a Juggz mug / t-Shirt graphic
I think the Necromunda releases are more interesting than 40K because Necromunda is more character based than squad based. Each mini is generally more unique and characterful.
Necromunda is the best because of all the fun scenarios. It is ALOT of books/rules but the fun is you can do anything
Glad to hear a Necromunda chat going on, it's the best game! I've never had a bad game (plenty of games that have gone badly, but that's different!) they're always eventful and ridiculous!
Also, Confrontation was one of the first GW games I ever played! My mates & I were so happy when the Necromunda models were released as we had Confrontation gangers!
In a stunning twist of fate Sean Bean should actually be alive in the Dark Galadriel timeline
No... no I don't think that's possible.
…unless, an evil, powerful necromancer were to bring Boromir back from the dead. If only there was a necromancer character in Lord of the Rings with a grudge against Dark Galadriel for taking his One Ring…
Regarding the War of the Rohirrim starter box not featuring Hera:
So, it features, Haleth and Hama, who *are* in the animation, *and* the accounts of the war from the books. Hera, however, only plays a relatively small role in the book version. So, it wouldn't surprise me entirely if GW had put together the starter box with the two sons of Helm before knowing Hera was (going by the trailers) going to be the main focus.
The major Rohirric figure in the written version that we haven't seen a sign of in the previews as far as I know, is Frealaf, Helm's nephew that ultimately wins the war, after (Spoilers perhaps?) Haleth dies defending the doors of the Meduseld, Hama freezes to death on a sorty out of Helm's deep for supplies, and Helm freezes to death in the night on one of his own sorties to kill Dunlendings.
My take on why the local gaming store doesn't have a regular Necromunda thing is this: In order to play a really good, immersive game of Necromunda it's necessary to have a well built board with multiple levels.
You can play the game on a more 2D board but it's a far more rewarding and narrative game when played with multiple levels.
Building and maintaining an interesting board like that is quite a bit of time and money investment. Your average game store will just put out a few bits of scenery and that's kind of uninspiring compared to what some people properly into Necromunda build for their own groups and what have you.
By comparison, 40k, five bits of scenery on a mat and go. Scenery wise 40k is less involved.
I was literally painting eyes on a necromunda model while Rob started giving out about painting eyes - 10/10 content
My favourite gangs are Cawdor and Delaque for the same reasons as Louise; runners up are the Squats. But more importantly, as Peachy was saying, anything goes, so I can just do whatever tickles my fancy!
As for settings, at this point it's Primus and the Ash Wastes for me. I've got too many custom vehicle ideas that I want to build - I bought one of the Kharadron airships to turn into a Delaque sand-submarine that uses kite-sails to chase its targets down.
Fun episode to listen too, especially since Im currently building a Venator gang for Necromunda based on the Votaan Killteam with the coats. (Of course themed after Firefly)
Jordan b spacemarine has some epic advice for the doomscroll gremlins... but first; clean your galaxy, bucko! 😅😊
One amazing tie in, the range of paint that Lou made for Monument, is absolutely perfect for Necromunda
Thanks for the stuff about "later jobs". Its something I struggle with and it helps to know am not alone!
New Juggz is my favorite thing to see 🤩🎉
!!! Frostpunk mentioned! Its AMAZING :D I'm building an Orlock gang for Necromunda at the moment & am thinking of making them frostpunk themed (like they got stuck in a freezer district or something, idk im handwaving it a bit!)
Munda is one of my all time faves, we do campaigns from Primus out to the wastes and back again. We love munda at monstrous light games (but we also play mordheim weekly)
Peachy! Grots with skitarii heads, the skrunts!!!
2:08 Glinner jumpscare 🤣
Always a good day when you 3 let the Juggz out !
14:51 So glad Louise and I are nerding out on the same David Ian Howe videos ;)
First impression of getting into Necromunda is “massive pile of source books to sift through”
Thank the gods ! I was starting to get withdrawal symptoms !
Hello Juggz, I enjoy the show a lot. Been a Necromunda fan for ages, played the original back in the 90s and played the 2017 from release up to this day. Only miniature game I’ve given this much dedication to.
Reason for gaming - great gaming group, fast paced skirmish game and a wonderful narrative setting. There is bunch of us that keeps making narrative for our yearly campaigns and a couple of solid rule-champions that update good house rules for easier play. A couple of suggestions:
1. Have a couple of experienced and fun gamers run the game with you.
2. One of the problems with the 90s version were line-of-sight and degree of cover. We removed that problem completely in 2017 with laser pointers and laser lines.
3. Run a 500 point game. You can then run a Champion as the HQ, a couple of gangers and a couple of juves (if available) to avoid Bottling (losing) the game, but still get a gist of gameplay.
4. Run a Stand Off Scenario, followed up by a Trap Scenario. These two are bare bones of several other scenarios available - the first is shoot as many of the opponent away without bottling and the other is classic ambush.
5. Thumb rule we picked up: Just figure out how many dice to roll and just roll. Then look up the rules if needed. Loads of ones, a miss. Lots of cover and long distance with an average ganger with normal rifle, probably needs a six.
would buy a commemorative peachy every time. take my money.
Ok, so Rob is saying we need a Spearhead version of Necromunda, got it! In all seriousness I agree with most of your points. Necromunda is so good on so many levels (I have tons of stuff for it, going back to the original box game and metal gangs.) and the rules and how they're laid out really does it a disservice sometimes.
A little aside, in film there is a similar saying that you always need to cut your favorite shot in order to make the movie better as a whole.
I want Rob to be directing films, the man knows what the people want
Bring me three priests is one of the best lines ever in a podcast
So happy to watch another epsiode of Juggz; lots of interesting discussion points this week and hilarious as usual.
I'm bored with 40K these days but love Necromunda, the problem is that it is a struggle to find anyone to play with. My experiences suggest that 1) the game is really daunting to get into because there are so many rules (which are great for narrative flavour but scary at first sight) spread across so many books. 2) Its a lot of stuff to carry; all those books plus a lot of scenery, even if you only need a handful or so of minis. I find myself carrying much more weight and bulk to a games night than if i was playing 40K. 3) There is a perception that Necromunda needs to be played as part of a structured league/campaign; nobody seems interested in pick up games or doing a casual league where you can drop in or out.
Question to Rob: Did you see anyone wearing boob armour in the miniwargaming **** bunker?
There are a lot of days I wake up and wish I could do games as a full time job, but hearing y’all guys describe it as work really takes the romance out of the idea 😂
Thanks for getting your Juggz out!
I played a couple of games of Necromunda back during the original release and I enjoyed it. I liked that, much like Mordheim, it was detailed "enough" for it to interesting to dive into and tell your own stories. I think all of the new miniatures are gorgeous - especially the Goliaths and the Squats (and the Palanites I guess haha) but I just can't get my head around the rules. I think I'd need someone to walk me through it so I could see it played to grok it.
They are back !!!!!!!!!!
Re: Necromunda being an imposing game system... just saying that OnePageRules have recently broken their "Gangs of New Eden" faction down into individal legally-distinct Necromunda gangs. That + their campaign rules, you've got a pretty approachable and capable substitute.
So, my necromunda experience. Last month i got myself Hive Secundus, those Van Saar looked dope and wanted them. But, yes, the rules are complicated and scattered. That wasn't an impediment for me, i like reading game rules (eventhough I never get to play them). So read the hive secundus book, told a friend of mine that plays a lot of high level 40k, so he can be my necromunda rules pupil, and we started a hive secundus campaign. This sparked the interest of many people at our local game store. So we (I) are expecting to do a campaign. But i know this next months i'll have to teach dozens of players (that's why I wanted a rules nerd so he can help me with them). And today they notified me that the corebook arrived (for legal reasons i can not say how much rules i have read) and i'm so excited. It's not easy to get in, but the games i've had have been so much fun, and i'm already preparing the campaing (with events and narrative). But I know that if i hadn't spend hours reading, watching videos and seeing reviews this would not go through. And as a note, to my english speaking friends, Necromunda is an English only game, so i will have to translate them to spanish so the old guard can play.
PD: Forgive my written English, it's my third language and it's been a while since I've written something.
Also, i've played a lot of warhammer games (40k, AoS, Spearhead, killteam, underworlds, warcry [i might be the only person on earth that doesn't like it, but i know why people do]) and some warlord games (bolt action, SPQR, Hail Caesar), and A Song of Ice and Fire. And necromunda is easily in my top favorite games (hobby and gamplay).
100% agree on Necromunda. I have a fully painted Escher gang but am lost rulewise
My regular gaming group started up last November into Necromunda after the 2023 core book release. You really only need one or two people to own that book, and then everyone just needs their gang book and you're good to go.
I played OG Necromunda back when I was in my 20's and it was like coming home to play it again. It's gotten me out of the house once a week, and I have fun whether I win or lose. The stories your group tells from week to week are the absolute best part of the game. And if you can find an Arbitrator that runs it almost like an RPG, the game can absolutely shine!
Jordan B Spacemarine: True enemy of Chaos.
I don't have any experience with Necromunda but I have played games with heavier rules sets. What I notice is that if you have a rule book that is nicely laid out and that is intuitive, it doesn't really matter. The hardest thing is finding time and getting through the rules and I think that is the biggest problem with heavier rules systems.
Necromunda only really works if you have a Game Master. The game is not balanced at all
This Squad is amazing. Nurgle Bless, Grot Ganga
Finally some nice long Juggz
Juggasaurus rex! Use Necromunda lore and minis, run it with Stargrave, it's got one book of rules 😊
Every model is a Necromunda model. Every wargamer is a Necromunda player... eventually. Currently painting four different gangs after coming back to it from the original edition. The old combat system was clunky but to me felt more like a struggle between two fighters, especially the way parry worked.
Samewise offing Pippin and Gladrial merkin' Frodo was legit as chocolate sheet cake.
Poor Pippin 😢😂
YES!! you should. and also, JUGGZ!
You should 100% play it.
The rules are…. Wonky but that’s half the fun, “guidelines” or “open to interpretation” is the best way to describe them and we (most of the groups I’ve played with) are happy to just make them fit the theme of the narrative.
Great episode!
I remember at Warammer Fest 2017 (I think) I was gonna go up to Louise to say how damn rad her Grendl Grendlsen entry was for Golden Daemon. However she was having a very enthusiastic conversation with someone about how awesome the bomb rats were for Cawdor and I didn't want to spoil that moment!
The Necromunda ruleset could definitely do with some streamlining. The cognitive load is really high just with the basic ruleset, never mind adding in additional rules from the many, many supplemental books. But it does generate some absolutely hilarious gaming moments, and if you can be arsed to set up your own campaign setting and tweak the campaign rules so it mirrors the old system more, it’s awesome!
For Peachy 'Unliving Temptation.'
Peach is right that Necromunda proper came out in '95 (after 40k 2nd ed.), but Confrontation was its precursor, and that was Rogue Trader era. :)
Edit: Peach got there eventually - I should have trusted him and waited to comment!
Edit edit: Never been to the MWG bunker, so... no, I have never. Compelling, though.
😂😂😂 I love reading your comments, the honesty of the edits cracked me up 😂😂😂
The impossible fortress could be the weirdest necromunda style game...but you get bonus points for being nice and promoting minions having good HR for your gang etc.
Necromunda is my favourite game (maybe second favourite behind Blood Bowl) but it really is an absolute nightmare to get into.
The relaunch was handled ridiculously stupidly with the initial rules, then Gang War books for each gang.
We then got the Rulebook and Gangs of the Underhive double book set, and at this point, the game was actually nicely playable.
Then they started on all the House of books, and bollocksed it all up again through Ash Wastes, but now the Core Rules book kinda reset everything again so you can get away with that, and your gang's "codex".
And now Secundus looks like it's making a mess of things again.
My play group has decided to stay a "season" behind. We waited until all the Ash Wastes content was released before starting to play that (though it's arguably incomplete since Delaque never got their specialist vehicles).
Great game, but yeah, it's a nightmare to get into.
(Although community edited rulebooks have made it MASSIVELY easier.)
The dvd box set sounds pretty cool. And rob needs a drone for the carpark fight. And no i have not in the bunker.
I love Necromundas models, lore, even rules mostly, but as a person who’s works a lot, even in shorter campaigns it’s really easy to fall behind in any campaign, to the point where you basically can’t do anything but lose
Flint knapping is great, I took a class on it in graduate school. I was rubbish at it but it was fun and some people were quite good at figuring out how the stone should break.
Yes please for gundam video Louise, I'm just finishing my zaku 2 , not sure what I'm going to build next yet
when you talked about "The Emperor Protects" at the end, I thought that would have been a great slogan for Warhammer inspired condoms 🙂
Brilliant video / podcast. I love listening to you guys. Thanks for this. Awesome content. This is the ultimate tabletop games podcast. I love Robs comment on the complexity of Necromunda rules, “…I open the rule book, and I think, Fuck off!…”
Hype for some Juggz!
the bolt action dice bag is the best activation system I've come across.
At last our nightmare is over! Juggz is out!
This
I thought exactly the same thing when I saw the new episode of Juggz was out so much that I had to tell my girlfriend that she would have to wait because I was busy 😮🎉
No, no Juggz ARE out. Plural. Three Juggz like Total Recall.
More Juggz, marvellous. I have always liked Necromunda minis, but was warned off as the rules were' challenging' . So I stick with Kill Team and Warcry.
Necromunda was born from a previous game, Confrontation, which was published over several White Dwarf issues in the early 90s.
I still love the 90s Necromunda models, absolute peak 90s Gw minis (the Escher being the pick of the bunch) and some wonderful artwork spawned from it too.
My take on the current state of Necromunda: Because it's so much better with loads of cool scenery, lots of new players will seek out an established group to play with, instead of starting with a friend. That means you have experienced players to guide you, and the "House ruling" you talked about earlier is taken care of by the Arbiter. (Did you come across the fact that the Necromunda campaign rules say you *must* have an arbiter? You haven't got to that yet...) I think perhaps that's the design goal behind the wide range of different source books, campaign settings and so-on. It's more like an RPG in that the games designers expect you to have an Arbiter running a campaign. Pick up games are not so common. The Secundus box does a nice job of dovetailing new players in a little with the Genestealer player being the Arbiter, and the Van Saar player having a wee one-player campaign.
If North Star, perrys or any other miniature makes a peach 95th rifles miniature I’ll stick it in my British silver bayonet unit for sure!
So love Necromunda setting and lore, rules wise One page Rules do a skirmish system called Grimdark Future Firefight. They have an online army builder and the rules are straight forward. Also very budget friendly.
Hahaha, the video suggestion on Louise's phone made me do a serious double-take 🤣
Sounds like Louise would like the How to Make Everything channel and their Reset Series, where they rediscover ancient skills materials like Flintknapping
I definitely agree with Rob, I think the one of the major things missing from GW products is a "getting started" kind of mindset. You are almost entirely reliant on playing with someone that has already played the game or tutorial videos in hopes you can follow along. Necromunda isn't the most unreadable rule book they've put out, but I'd still love a getting started or like a "sample game" run through, even if it's just a couple turns. A getting started version would be better, because you can shave down rules and if people only want to play rules light Necromunda, they can! I mean, it seems most people would rather play a rules light 40k... hence the popularity of one page rules system.
The worst rulebook I think I've run into is Legions Imperialis. When reading the rulebook for Necromunda, it does feel like a lot... but I also feel like I could figure it out! Sure, I'll make mistakes during gameplay and have to reference the book, but I really think I could figure it out. Legions Imperialis, I don't even think I could competently build a force... there's SO much dead space in that rulebook too. They definitely could have written a sample game in there or a sampe couple of turns to get a step by step feel of how it would play. I think even Fire & Jade Spearhead rules ran you through something in that rulebook. LI is the worst rulebook I've read from GW so far I think...
On a side note. LOVE the idea of the Impossible fortress where everyone gets on. I'd have to go look it up, but isn't there an "impossible" Spire on Necromunda, where things are decided democratically and the Imperium just hates them?
Double side note: Necromunda is older than '95. The rules appeared in a White Dwarf in the early 90's and there was some work on a game called Confrontation(?)... I think. But yeah, the rules appeared much earlier than '95 before they got an official release. (Sorry if someone already mentioned this.)
I’d like to see the juggz team make a miniatures rules system, I think you guys could make a really fun system.
As a dyslexic ADHDer I find the Necromunda rulebook physically difficult to read, black and brown on geey. And shiny pages….
The alternative and combined versions of the rules that are out there are considerably more accessible.
Flint knapping is the business! I have a neolithic spearhead in my collection!
Now I'm just imagining Dawn of War voice clips in the Bunker...
"Do you hear the voices, too?!"
"The armoured fist of Chaos!"
ive been in this existential wtf am i doing crisis too lately. glad to hear im not alone in the struggle