Juggz the Podcast Episode 17: It's Cool To Be Edgy Until It's Confusing
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- Опубликовано: 10 окт 2024
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Join Louise from @roguehobbies Peachy from @PeachyTips and Rob from @TheHonestWargamer every week to discuss the hottest "wargaming" news, the weirdest minis and the coolest paint jobs
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"The Emperor protects... but not tonight!" I think I died.
I died on the Blood for the Blood God
I started playing in my first Necromunda campaign 2 weeks ago, and I've been having a great time. I did it with the rules from only 2 books: the core rulebook and the Escher book. My advice if you are starting out is:
1. If you are going to play in a campaign, someone with some experience should run it. And you should not read any of the skirmish rules. Read the campaign-specific rules, but you don't need to know them inside and out. Just get the general idea.
2. If you are going to play skirmish, skip all the campaign rules.
3. Skip all the vehicle rules.
4. Skip the skills and weapon traits. You can read them as you need them when creating your gang and during games.
4. Figure out what gang you want to play (lots of online resources for helping) and get access to their book/rules. Find a sample starter list online and run it.
5. Play one game. Get everything wrong and ask a million questions.
6. Re-read the same rules you read before you played. They should mostly stick now.
I think the toughest part for me to get my head around is the injury rules. It seems complicated, but I assume it's that way because of the campaign system. In 40k/AoS/TOW what happens to a model when it loses all its wounds is irrelevant; it's just out of the battle. In Necromunda it matters -- a LOT.
Learning Necromunda may be a little harder than other GW games, but it is very rewarding. Thought I do agree with Peach that they should have premade gangs in the box sets (Hive War, Secundus) and maybe even in the gang boxes.
Necromunda is the best because of all the fun scenarios. It is ALOT of books/rules but the fun is you can do anything
“Poor Miniac” 12:48 Savage 😂
Still feel bad for em... gah. But yes.. epic slide in there, Robert lol
You should 100% play it.
The rules are…. Wonky but that’s half the fun, “guidelines” or “open to interpretation” is the best way to describe them and we (most of the groups I’ve played with) are happy to just make them fit the theme of the narrative.
I have missed your Juggz so much - now I am plunging face-first into your Juggz and it is glorious.
My take on why the local gaming store doesn't have a regular Necromunda thing is this: In order to play a really good, immersive game of Necromunda it's necessary to have a well built board with multiple levels.
You can play the game on a more 2D board but it's a far more rewarding and narrative game when played with multiple levels.
Building and maintaining an interesting board like that is quite a bit of time and money investment. Your average game store will just put out a few bits of scenery and that's kind of uninspiring compared to what some people properly into Necromunda build for their own groups and what have you.
By comparison, 40k, five bits of scenery on a mat and go. Scenery wise 40k is less involved.
One amazing tie in, the range of paint that Lou made for Monument, is absolutely perfect for Necromunda
Just stop nuln oil !!! It was there all along!
Great! But where are the Spotify uploads? (I think episode 11 is the latest I found from there.)
come here to ask this
Hello Juggz, I enjoy the show a lot. Been a Necromunda fan for ages, played the original back in the 90s and played the 2017 from release up to this day. Only miniature game I’ve given this much dedication to.
Reason for gaming - great gaming group, fast paced skirmish game and a wonderful narrative setting. There is bunch of us that keeps making narrative for our yearly campaigns and a couple of solid rule-champions that update good house rules for easier play. A couple of suggestions:
1. Have a couple of experienced and fun gamers run the game with you.
2. One of the problems with the 90s version were line-of-sight and degree of cover. We removed that problem completely in 2017 with laser pointers and laser lines.
3. Run a 500 point game. You can then run a Champion as the HQ, a couple of gangers and a couple of juves (if available) to avoid Bottling (losing) the game, but still get a gist of gameplay.
4. Run a Stand Off Scenario, followed up by a Trap Scenario. These two are bare bones of several other scenarios available - the first is shoot as many of the opponent away without bottling and the other is classic ambush.
5. Thumb rule we picked up: Just figure out how many dice to roll and just roll. Then look up the rules if needed. Loads of ones, a miss. Lots of cover and long distance with an average ganger with normal rifle, probably needs a six.
Hi guys, big fan! Are these episodes going to be uploaded in an audio only format? I only really have time to listen when i'm driving for work and i'm missing your Juggz
Thank you for a new episode! This is making me feel better while ill
Regarding the War of the Rohirrim starter box not featuring Hera:
So, it features, Haleth and Hama, who *are* in the animation, *and* the accounts of the war from the books. Hera, however, only plays a relatively small role in the book version. So, it wouldn't surprise me entirely if GW had put together the starter box with the two sons of Helm before knowing Hera was (going by the trailers) going to be the main focus.
The major Rohirric figure in the written version that we haven't seen a sign of in the previews as far as I know, is Frealaf, Helm's nephew that ultimately wins the war, after (Spoilers perhaps?) Haleth dies defending the doors of the Meduseld, Hama freezes to death on a sorty out of Helm's deep for supplies, and Helm freezes to death in the night on one of his own sorties to kill Dunlendings.
Ash Waste Nomads are my favourite Necromunda miniatures and the exotic critters. I think its the only GW game where every faction has something you'd like to buy.
So that's the "call back" in Two Towers to Haleth and Hama who are Helm's sons. The princes are going to be in the movie (as far as we can tell) and I would imagine they are keeping Hera back for a fancy Forge World resin miniature - much like they did with Helm the Wraith who was announced recently. I am very eager to dive into the new set and the new edition when it lands. Love myself some Middle-earth.
„Doomscrolling-psycho-phone-gremlin“ sounds like a Juggz mug / t-Shirt graphic
Rob where have you been all my life? Loved how dark you went on the Pippin and Sam bit (and Louise's horror at it).
This is like the after dark edition of each of your podcasts and I'm here for it. Great to just see you three shooting the shit.
So love Necromunda setting and lore, rules wise One page Rules do a skirmish system called Grimdark Future Firefight. They have an online army builder and the rules are straight forward. Also very budget friendly.
Gandalf: “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?"
Sam: "...............yes"
Rob, you are the go to for rules, changes etc for.my son and i.thanks for your work and always keeping us updated and entertained. We have learned a lot! Thanks also to Peachy and Louise we are fans of your shows.and juggz , From mt hood oregon :)
Theres a severe lack of man boob armour in fantasy #hardtobeamaninthehobby
Truly, the greatest challenge to the average Grot is poor management and leadership issues.
The Red Gobbo had it right! Veevuh da Revoooshun!
Fun episode to listen too, especially since Im currently building a Venator gang for Necromunda based on the Votaan Killteam with the coats. (Of course themed after Firefly)
In a stunning twist of fate Sean Bean should actually be alive in the Dark Galadriel timeline
No... no I don't think that's possible.
Now I'm just imagining Dawn of War voice clips in the Bunker...
"Do you hear the voices, too?!"
"The armoured fist of Chaos!"
Jordan B Spacemarine: True enemy of Chaos.
I played a couple of games of Necromunda back during the original release and I enjoyed it. I liked that, much like Mordheim, it was detailed "enough" for it to interesting to dive into and tell your own stories. I think all of the new miniatures are gorgeous - especially the Goliaths and the Squats (and the Palanites I guess haha) but I just can't get my head around the rules. I think I'd need someone to walk me through it so I could see it played to grok it.
Best way to play/learn necromunda is to have a friend who already knows the rules I've played 1 game and loved it
Every model is a Necromunda model. Every wargamer is a Necromunda player... eventually. Currently painting four different gangs after coming back to it from the original edition. The old combat system was clunky but to me felt more like a struggle between two fighters, especially the way parry worked.
At last our nightmare is over! Juggz is out!
This
I thought exactly the same thing when I saw the new episode of Juggz was out so much that I had to tell my girlfriend that she would have to wait because I was busy 😮🎉
No, no Juggz ARE out. Plural. Three Juggz like Total Recall.
So, my necromunda experience. Last month was my birthday and i got myself Hive Secundus, those Van Saar looked dope and wanted them. But, yes, the rules are complicated and scattered. That wasn't an impediment for me, i like reading game rules (eventhough I never get to play them). So read the hive secundus book, told a friend of mine that plays a lot of high level 40k, so he can be my necromunda rules pupil, and we started a hive secundus campaign. This sparked the interest of many people at our local game store. So we (I) are expecting to do a campaign. But i know this next months i'll have to teach dozens of players (that's why I wanted a rules nerd so he can help me with them). And today they notified me that the corebook arrived (for legal reasons i can not say how much rules i have read) and i'm so excited. It's not easy to get in, but the games i've had have been so much fun, and i'm already preparing the campaing (with events and narrative). But I know that if i hadn't spend hours reading, watching videos and seeing reviews this would not go through. And as a note, to my english speaking friends, Necromunda is an English only game, so i will have to translate them to spanish so the old guard (i'm 23 and the youngest active player at the LGS) can play.
PD: Forgive my written English, it's my third language and it's been a while since I've written something.
Also, i've played a lot of warhammer games (40k, AoS, Spearhead, killteam, underworlds, warcry [i might be the only person on earth that doesn't like it, but i know why people do]) and some warlord games (bolt action, SPQR, Hail Caesar), and A Song of Ice and Fire. And necromunda is easily in my top favorite games (hobby and gamplay).
The Necromunda ruleset could definitely do with some streamlining. The cognitive load is really high just with the basic ruleset, never mind adding in additional rules from the many, many supplemental books. But it does generate some absolutely hilarious gaming moments, and if you can be arsed to set up your own campaign setting and tweak the campaign rules so it mirrors the old system more, it’s awesome!
14:51 So glad Louise and I are nerding out on the same David Ian Howe videos ;)
Necromunda is my favourite game (maybe second favourite behind Blood Bowl) but it really is an absolute nightmare to get into.
The relaunch was handled ridiculously stupidly with the initial rules, then Gang War books for each gang.
We then got the Rulebook and Gangs of the Underhive double book set, and at this point, the game was actually nicely playable.
Then they started on all the House of books, and bollocksed it all up again through Ash Wastes, but now the Core Rules book kinda reset everything again so you can get away with that, and your gang's "codex".
And now Secundus looks like it's making a mess of things again.
My play group has decided to stay a "season" behind. We waited until all the Ash Wastes content was released before starting to play that (though it's arguably incomplete since Delaque never got their specialist vehicles).
Great game, but yeah, it's a nightmare to get into.
(Although community edited rulebooks have made it MASSIVELY easier.)
I don't have any experience with Necromunda but I have played games with heavier rules sets. What I notice is that if you have a rule book that is nicely laid out and that is intuitive, it doesn't really matter. The hardest thing is finding time and getting through the rules and I think that is the biggest problem with heavier rules systems.
Necromunda only really works if you have a Game Master. The game is not balanced at all
Munda is one of my all time faves, we do campaigns from Primus out to the wastes and back again. We love munda at monstrous light games (but we also play mordheim weekly)
Haven't listened to a single word yet, but the answer to the question is yes. Very much yes!
Juggasaurus rex! Use Necromunda lore and minis, run it with Stargrave, it's got one book of rules 😊
There are a lot of days I wake up and wish I could do games as a full time job, but hearing y’all guys describe it as work really takes the romance out of the idea 😂
So I loved necro as a kid. I still have the cardstock. As soon as the new one came out I bought it. My friend and I cracked it out. The game was pretty good, but the rules were all over the place and hard to figure out (and this was pre-expansion).
The joy of necromunda is the kitout - its the personalisation of your little dudes, the investment in them. The between round stuff in this edition is BONKERS complicated. Whole books of possible items. My friend and I played 2 games of it and bailed.
Then we went and played shadow war armageddon which is based on the 2nd edition necromunda rules. So, so much better.
New Juggz is my favorite thing to see 🤩🎉
Yes please for gundam video Louise, I'm just finishing my zaku 2 , not sure what I'm going to build next yet
Spending time with juggz is my happy place.
Glad to hear a Necromunda chat going on, it's the best game! I've never had a bad game (plenty of games that have gone badly, but that's different!) they're always eventful and ridiculous!
Also, Confrontation was one of the first GW games I ever played! My mates & I were so happy when the Necromunda models were released as we had Confrontation gangers!
Samewise offing Pippin and Gladrial merkin' Frodo was legit as chocolate sheet cake.
Poor Pippin 😢😂
Are you soft launching that Pepsi bottle as a new permanent host?
Always a good day when you 3 let the Juggz out !
Sounds like Louise would like the How to Make Everything channel and their Reset Series, where they rediscover ancient skills materials like Flintknapping
Thank the gods ! I was starting to get withdrawal symptoms !
2:08 Glinner jumpscare 🤣
Louise, you really dont have to be a parent to teach children. I work in a school and have worked alongside many teachers. Those who do not have children do not differentiate in quality of teaching from those that do have children. You are an amazing artist and, a great influence on the next generation of hobbyists. Please keep passing on your skills and knowledge.
Peach is right that Necromunda proper came out in '95 (after 40k 2nd ed.), but Confrontation was its precursor, and that was Rogue Trader era. :)
Edit: Peach got there eventually - I should have trusted him and waited to comment!
Edit edit: Never been to the MWG bunker, so... no, I have never. Compelling, though.
The Wargaming Flock-Bunker... "The Emperor protects" sounds like a brand for condoms. XD
Brainstorm on WH40k condoms, the tagline is "The Emperor always protects." Then cut to a metallic gold cardboard box with an Aquila and a lightning bolt in each talon and cue a male chorus singing out "Golden Throne!" to the tune of the old "Trojan Man" commercials.
Thanks for getting your Juggz out!
I think what puts me off Necromunda is that it feels from the outside that it's very locked-down in terms of what you can do with your gang. The models are so intricate it seems like there's not much room to personalise them, based on looking at the sprues, each house seems to have one colour scheme, and there's reams of narrative to catch up on for context. I'm sure it's a lot more flexible... once you've done the required homework and know the system inside and out, but it's kind of opaque from the outside.
More Juggz, marvellous. I have always liked Necromunda minis, but was warned off as the rules were' challenging' . So I stick with Kill Team and Warcry.
They are back !!!!!!!!!!
Finally some nice long Juggz
The thing that is wild about munda rules is that they layer together. To fully understand a rule look up keywords in a rule especially if you think you know the definition.
As someone who adores necromunda it is a shitshow to learn. Honestly it's easier to learn as an RPG player than it is as a War gamer. If you think of it as DND more than a wargame it helps a lot. Having a friend to help you get in saves you worlds of hurt, and don't be afraid to look through the rules and pull a Peach and go this is rubbish I'll do it this way. Because its more about the narrative and the story than it is the game itself. The game lends itself to the storytelling than the storytelling lending itself to the game.
Great episode. Loved everything you guys have done. Hope to be financially stable enough to support on Patreon soon.
This might be a hot take. Not every game has to be for everyone. And the company that makes any game doesn't have a responsibility to make games playable for everyone either. You, as a consumer, have to decide if it's for you. We live in a world were we try to respect every individual for their unique and individual existence in this universe. Games should be treated the same. If you are not a fan of an interaction with certain people, you walk away, and never deal with them again. Same for a game. If you don't like the game, you are free to change how you want to interact with it. The company doesn't have to tell you how to play make-believe. There is no reason you should give your agency to have fun to a company.
Brilliant video / podcast. I love listening to you guys. Thanks for this. Awesome content. This is the ultimate tabletop games podcast. I love Robs comment on the complexity of Necromunda rules, “…I open the rule book, and I think, Fuck off!…”
Peachy's point about 'Rings of Power' and Gandalf/Bombadil is an issue I always have with Doctor Who episodes where the Doctor meets a famous writer and then proceeds to have an adventure that is the plot of one of their books. It takes imaginative agency from that writer and it drives me mad.
I would also like to repeat something I read on a FB group: "ssshhhh don't tell GW but with Necromunda they made a miniature agnostic game."
And that's why #everymodelsanecromundamodel
This Squad is amazing. Nurgle Bless, Grot Ganga
YES!! you should. and also, JUGGZ!
Designers need to look at how new people get into games. A great example is Magic the gathering. It may be a lumbering behemoth of a super complicated game, but the starter sets are really easy to play.
With Necromunda you can recreate a lot of warbands contained the black library books, and run it like an RPG?
I can confidently say, I'm definitely a Jughead 😅😆😂 (Not the Archie Comics)
I was one of the people who were talking about the GW IP at the conference. The presentations are being uploaded on its channel www.youtube.com/@WarhammerConference/
Maybe the big, bad end boss was the friends we made along the way...
I’d like to see the juggz team make a miniatures rules system, I think you guys could make a really fun system.
Band of Brothers into Wolfenstein? Well, this sounds interesting 🪖
Grotz just need love!
Not sure if it's practical from an editing perspective but a visual cue as to when spoilers are happening would be cool. Just if you're skipping through a spoiler section (I haven't watched S2 of Rings of Power yet) then you can see the spoiler alert without stopping to listen and potentially get spoiled. Just a quality of life suggestion rather than an actual big issue.
What philistine doesn't watch to the end of a Juggz episode?!
Why Necromunda isn't popular? When I wanted to start, I would need three books, totalling over 100 euros to field a single team. That's before you start buying plastic, and rules being scattered across three books for a skirmish game is rubbish. You can easily get two people a Stargrave book and crew for the price of just the books of Necromunda. I think you can even buy two Necromunda gangs and two Stargrave books for the price of those books.
And Necromunda isn’t balanced at all either. It only really works if your group has a game master
Gotta watch some Bill Making Stuff for Trash Mini Builds!
My friend and I kitbashed and painted our own custom gangs. We played two games of Necromunda and collectively decided the game was *terrible*.
Just from this discussion, getting into necromunda sounds only as difficult as getting into any other war game
You are essentially described a d&d starter box for necromunda.
For Peachy 'Unliving Temptation.'
If y'all are gonna do a lightsaber fight, you should get in MS Paints to film that shiz.
ive been in this existential wtf am i doing crisis too lately. glad to hear im not alone in the struggle
I taught my neice to paint with a 54 mm elf archer from Heresy (former spyglass), she picked it from a range of a few options. Never considered a marine, possibly cause I find them dull to paint
How many trees do you have to plant to have a carbon neutral kid ?
There's a podcast called Worlds Greatest Con which had a season on Operation Mincemeat.
It's presented by an American comedian/magician, so is rather over the top, but is very interesting/entertaining.
Still people with living memories of people getting “mulched” in WW2……. Also, a lot of vets at Arnham having a “happy anniversary”
Hahaha, the video suggestion on Louise's phone made me do a serious double-take 🤣
Jordan b spacemarine has some epic advice for the doomscroll gremlins... but first; clean your galaxy, bucko! 😅😊
Also euclidian geometry; parallel lines don't intersect at infinity. Non euclidian geometry; parallel lines intersect at infinity
I've always wanted to play Necromunda, but it feels like if I'm not part of a full narrative campaign then I'm missing out on such a large part of the game and what makes it special. And sorting a full narrative campaign is alot of work and commitment required from a group of people so most attempts feel like they fail.
Hype for some Juggz!
I'm going to sound like an absolute arse now. But regarding that barrier to entry, I kind of like that there is a barrier to get through, because when it clicks it's all the more rewarding. It's a bit like the whole 'Elden Ring is too hard' thing, because some people like that it's too hard...
OK, it's a stretch, but we could be "Boulders". As in "over the shoulder boulder holder". I did see someone say Juggernautz, and that's a lot better, though
why isn't Necromunda bigger? Easy, just to play a bloody gang of 12, you need to buy the rules, the minis, the terrain (or a starter box) THEN the faction book, the extra ones to get access to specific items of character or setting, more miniatures ... It is as expensive as it is cool (and it is very cool), so they're 0 chance you'd rise interest with such a cost to start with.
On the first miniature, what about printing a 3 up space marine if you really want them to paint a space marine?
Peachy! Grots with skitarii heads, the skrunts!!!