Yep, after this video the penny finally dropped! The vex future we see in curse of osiris is exactly this - no light no dark, a neutral game as described in the lore books.
Indeed, now the backstroy starts to make sense. I must hand it to the writes, because even dialogue in D1, Stranger saying: " You have to pick a side, even if it is the wrong side", makes sense. I just wonder that was it so that this is still from the very original Destiny plot by Joseph Staten.
But that is the vex of the vault The vex of the garden (the soul divisive) have almost opposite objectives The vex in the vault believe that if they use their own strength over time and space, they can destroy the universe and rebuild it vex The vex in the garden believe if they worship the darkness that is there, that they will ascend and become something more (I know you were making a joke but still)
"Here's what we have on Gatelords: Three stories tall.. protect the realms the Vex keep locked out of time. Time? ...that can't be right" ~Ghost, D1, Eye of A Gatelord
Bungie: *Gives us a mission where we befriend the Vex* Me: *finishes the mission* Oh boy now I can just- *gets shot to death by 'friendly' Vex on Nessus*
Vex: “You know what? You’re a dick. But goddamn it, do I respect you.” Saint-14: *Turned into Schrödinger's Cat* (Nods approvingly) “Things could be so much worse... or can they?” Darkness Exists, the Formless One Exists, and the Speaker is dead S14: “Ohhh they definitely can be worse.”
It has but it hasn't, if you play the mission it is a future where the sun is dead, that about four billions years in the future for our planet. So saint-14 still alive, be dead in some far future.
@@borisnetDJ No. Saint 14 is dead in our time, we take his shotgun, and we're going to go back in time (sometime in the future) to give him his shotgun, which in turn we will inspire him to be the hero that he is and he will die, as he did, and we will find his shotgun, and go back in time. A loop, the "Perfect Paradox".
@@borisnetDJ Also everything in the infinite forest is a simulation. You do realize we don't actually travel time when we're in there right? We just look at the realities and outcomes the vex are testing.
@@virulenthunter3017 But Saint-14 isn't simulation. Remember that vex can't simulate the light. He went to infinite forest by himself looking for Osiris and died there fighting thousands of vex, and vex finally can manage to create a machine to drain his light after years.
Ciel off topic but I was thinking since there are lots of pyramid ships and they can produce things out of the darkness like nightmares, and the traveler can make those light figures that talk to us in the red war story. There might be more than one traveler.
Issue: Throne Worlds cheat death! With Darkness! Ghosts can be simply considered tiny talking oversouls made of light. (Paraphrased from Toland) The majority of the Vex are to destroy light & dark... They hate both & cannot understand both paracausal forces. The Sol Divisive were a Vex Collective to worship Darkness out of fear for what they do not know... The most logical rout to something a species science can't explain is reverance & worship. Guys. The lore isn't hard to elaborate, if you read videogame lore like a novel, as I do. :) Anyhow, good insight on the Traveler / Light side of the equation.
So when the agent of the nine refers to “he/she can leave this game”. The emissary was not breaking the 4th wall, but referencing the flower game and our ability to choose between the Gardner and the winnower. As opposed to following our dogma
Could this game being played by the Traveler and the Darkness be the game to which The Emissary of The Nine referred in the end of Season of the Drifter? Perhaps it wasn't the 4th wall break that we first thought 🤔
Emissary says that our fate is in the hands of lair, afraid, untrustworthy and forever grasping. Could they be referred to the traveller? Edit: also states that this is the shape of our trail. And previously says that are we going to be the fourth being who transcend our design " being protector of the traveller and guardians"
I think i just figured out a huge influence in the games lore. The line from the lore tab gardener and winnower "They had no antecedent and no constituents" struck me. I can't find the passage but i'm sure that's almost a direct quote from Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian, which contains one of the darkest characters in literature who seeks to order the world. If you look on youtube there are audiobook sections "The judge on science" and that seems to be a primary influence to the vex. And that made me realize that "the judge on war" passage (also on youtube) is very very similar to the hive's sword logic.
"we are not your friends, we are not your enemies, we are your salvation" just what fate are the Vex trying to prevent through the extinction of paracausal entities, aka being who can create sub games within the game of life.
Imagine if using the wave emote to greet them and not opening fire on/ damaging Vex units was all it took to just not have them attack you, at least in patrol and outside of missions anyway.
Awesome lore input. Kind of explains why the Garden Vex are integrating into the garden and turning into the Black Garden. Both the bosses have tree bark instead of vex plates.
How much you wanna bet The Gardener is The Darkness and The Winnower is The Light. After all.. it raised us to kill other species. Pruning back the unworthy. We even proved ourselves a part of the final shape according to the Sword Logic by killing Oryx.
Actually... you may be on to something there. There's the strange statues of a veiled woman on the pyramid ship AND in the Black Garden, and the concept art from D1 shows the same statues holding what's clearly meant to be a depiction of the Traveler. When you account for the imagery of a woman being commonly associated with being nurturing, those statues could easily be interpreted as a Gardener holding a Winnow. It's commonly understood that the Traveler goes around helping out different civilizations, only to abandon them when the Darkness shows up in pursuit, and that humanity was the one exception for some reason. But stop and think about it, and you realize that there's actually *zero* evidence to back this up. It's always just been pure speculation, with the only thing that's even remotely close to "evidence" being the fact that the Fallen were abandoned by the Traveler. We know so little about the Whirlwind that we don't even know if it was the Darkness that caused it; we just assumed it was the same as the Collapse. Looking into it further, there's actually some evidence to suggest that the Whirlwind was caused by in-fighting amongst the Fallen during their golden age, and that *that* is why the Traveler abandoned them. So, if the Traveler is a "Winnower", it sorted the Fallen into the "failed crop" category when they showed that they couldn't maintain a perfect society and moved on to the next, and the Darkness -- aka the "Gardener" -- came later to clear out this bad crop to make room for new crops. Humanity, meanwhile, may have been judged as a "good crop", and the Collapse was actually the Traveler reaping said crop so the Darkness could come and sow the harvest -- remember, Ghosts and Guardians came *after* the Collapse. If they were created to defend the Traveler from the Darkness like we assume, how does it make sense for the Traveler to defend itself *after* the Darkness attacked and left? Come to think of it, why did the Darkness leave at all if its goal was to wipe everyone out? If the Collapse really was an attack by the Darkness, why didn't it finish the job?
What’s really interesting is the how I think of the Black Garden after learning of the game of life. It’s structured like the stoic blocks stated, with flowers on the ‘board’
When the darkness mentions that you need both the dark and the light, I can’t help but think back to the beginning. The was no dark, there was no light, but they worked together and built off each other, proving we need both.
It's almost always agents of the dark, or those enamored of them, who are the first to start spouting this stuff before it hooks into peoples' doubts and gets repeated among followers of the Light. (and that's not just in Destiny, but in all sorts of stories). This is because you cannot have darkness without light - it needs a positive state in order to define it's negative one. Yet light can exist perfectly well without darkness. Imagine a room. With a light source you get dark shadows. As the light grows stronger you get darker shadows. However, if there is not one, but a multitude of lights, perhaps to the point of being omnipresent, darkness is eradicated and the room is bathed in warmth. Don't let the agents of darkness fool you thinking you need them. Their kind words conceal knives.
Vex: Unified the universe with mass uniform efficiency Fallen: Low grade militias alien struggle to be alive Cabal: Flawed warmonger who ideology is to bring peace though brute force (atleast in Emperor Calus mind) Hive: Ancient race who apparently are prepare for something worse and then there's the Taken, straight up bad guy, lmfao
On the Hive's part, they are led by Hive supremacists who believe in the rule of Steong over Weak. The lore explains that the Hive, especially when led by Oryx, are conquering. They are prolonging their species, saving themselves from extinction, by killing off all other species they come in contact with. On top of that, Oryx created the Taken and are in his "image", so the Taken, constantly fighting and destroying and infecting, are doing so because that is exactly what Oryx & the Hive commanded them to do. A nonstop war machine made up of semi-conscious zombie species that infects & kills everything... with no master to pull back on their leash.
Contextualization is the missing ingredient in Destiny lore and you, sir, do a damn good job providing that. I love the research you put into this episode and it pays off with a strong argument. I also just love that we're finally getting origin and creation myth for the universe with this book.
Congrats on the Sponsor and great vid too. I always think back to the Nessus quests with the Vex and all of their instances of reaching out to communicate or request help. I think one of them were the O Captain mission and the idea of the Vex harpy being the Exodus Captain!
I figured that the pyramid ships were the keepers of balance between light and dark. The golden age was a beacon of light to them, so they came and caused the collapse, but left one ship behind to keep watch. Once the traveler awoke after the red war, it alerted them that the balance had been upset, and so now they are coming back to set things right once more.
This is actually very great! And makes so much sense. Idk about yall but I've seen versions of these stories before. Not Destiny but the Life and Death thing. Where as the Light (Life) learned to hate or started to hate Darkness (Death) because it kept "killing" it's creations. Though Death is only doing it's, well, job. And wouldn't it be so funny that these chaos is happening because the Light decided to rebel against its nature to create something that could die for balance, but it started to create almost immortal beings and keeps running away from the Darkness lol Then you add Awoken/Fallen/etc in the mix, everyone wants that immortality thing so the universe just keeps getting unbalanced. And the Darkness is just here like "wtf Light." lol
It has been several months since I last played, mostly because I have been too poor to afford the DLC as of late. Which is why I love lore videos because they keep me up to date with the story. That said, this one has me vexed.
The game is also mentioned in one of the cutscenes of the invitation of the 9. Don‘t remember which week it was, but the emissary was talking to the nine and she mentioned that „He can leave the game“
I really like the symmetry between light and darkness in Destiny and actual physics, how there has to be exactly the same amount of dark energy as (positive) energy in the universe, everything has to sum up to 0 because that's what everything started from and it's what everything will go to at some point
Absolute mastery of lore Myelin, bravo. These theories are incredible 👍🏻 I love the fact that Vex are enforcers of existence because Light and Dark can't stop tampering with the rules. Brilliant 👌🏼
I love listening to these lore videos, specially considering that I also watch Byf, and sometimes you have different interpretations of the lore, it makes it all more interesting, keep up the great work! Cellular Automata
With the Mara Sov quote, you really must appreciate how much of this world-building was already hinted at in advance. The Mara Sov quote would have first been in the game a year ago, and now we have Shadowkeep solidifying the cellular automata game into the story. In fact, the subgames within the master game IS the story of Destiny.
is the "ant" the traveler? or is it the "life" and evolution? is the traveler more of an intentional mechanism then? wouldn't that make the traveler an agent of chaos as well, not too dissimilar from those like oryx and savathuun? the traveler moves from system to system initiating a seed of chaos through abondonment or by its introduction of the life catalyst...it is a chaotic experiment or game within a game presumably to control some aspect
I think it's worth noting that in the context in which "constituents" is used, it may actually be referring to the definition meaning "a component part of something."
myelin please talk about the lore books in-game of praedyth's journals while in the vault of glass. Found it interesting when he mentioned that the vex "feared", or as much as they can fear something, the vex of the sol divisive even fighting with them at times!!!!!! This would be so cool to explore more deeply!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I want to know the link between the warlock Ullan-tan and all of this, how did she know about the symetry? And why did the vanguard banned her if they knew she was right? As ikora said in the season of undying: "the garden raised up a question, the vex are the answer"
I love this video. It also fuels a sneaky suspicion I have the Light isn’t pure good, but also a force trying to make its own rules with a specific (and unbalanced) world view.
I can't remember the lore piece, but i remember it talked about who said the light is 'light' its just a name we made up for it to make ourselves feel like the good guys. Also look at Graviton Forfeits lore
The traveler: Welp I don’t wanna play anymore and want to make things live forever. Darkness: wait what you can’t do that- that’s not fair. Vex: yo you talking a lot of shit for someone within crusading distance. Traveler leaves and goes and makes things for a unhealthy amount of time, the darkness literally just chasing them to try and fix the game and fix what there doing wrong. How they are disrupting the pattern. The game for wanting to make others live forever. The darkness is just trying to desperately clean up how the traveler has strayed from the pattern. Set things right in a balance.
It is a kind of paradox, light and darkness play a game, live and need together, light goes away and starts cheating in the game, darkness wants the light to stop cheating and to play the game in a 'legit' way. So the 'light' did what we shall call a darkness move, and the darkness on the other hand, made a 'light' move. Sorry if my English is not good and if I do not know a lot on the lore.
The Darkness is trying to kill everyone and literally preaches the idea that those who died DESERVED to die because they're weak, and aren't any better than those who never existed at all. This is the exact same idea that caused the Hive to go about killing trillions for a billion years. Also, instead of hearing the Gardener out when they wanted a new rule, the Darkness tried to murder them repeatedly, even when they offered peace. I don't know what impression you got from The Unveiling, but "[...]I said in rising panic/fury" does not give the implication the Darkness was reacting logically. Yeah, in THEIR mind the Gardener caused a mess and they're trying to clean it up, but they're trying to do so by murdering all the universes that were created by THEIR fight with the Gardener. All the LIVES THEY created. (Also, keep in mind it's the DARKNESS that claims the Gardener wants everything to live forever and never die. We have no solid idea of what the Gardener actually wants.) The Darkness isn't some misunderstood hero who wants to fix everything that mean Gardener broke, they're a sociopath who doesn't like change or complexity so they're trying to kill everything until things go back to the way they were before.
What if the Vex are the ones creating the legendary and Exotic engrams that we get throughout the universe? That could explain how we can see multiple copies of the same exotic that is thought to have only been made once amongst the Guardians. Or not. Edit: I mistook world for universe.
If Vex are here to restore the game, then why didn't they attack Mara or Oryx? Since you said that Mara and Oryx are cheating the game/trying to disrupt it.
As others stated, they try to stop Oryx. As for Mara...Well, the last time we saw her, she said she would soon meet a friend who would tell her "a side should always be taken". We all know to whom that was referring ...
I posit this: what if the Vex are as old as the light and the darkness? Closest analogy I can come up with is Palkia, Dialga, and Darkrai. You have two creating things while one acts as a balance. We know the light took a corporeal form in the Traveler, the darkness is hinted at having a form too. What if this anxiety balancer decided to join the game too and became radiolaria? It's fluid to act as a "weed killer." The traveler creates, the darkness destroys, and the radiolaria creates the cutoff line between them.
So if entities such as Mara and Oryx need to be cleaned from the universe are we in the same boat? We cheat death all the time with our ghosts. What are the Fallen/Cabal to the Vex then? The following are what their name shows them to be, erase scattered across the system searching for a time that doesn't exist anymore. The Cabal are a (leaderless?) war machine. This is a really interesting concept and it does seem to fit with the mysteries of the Vex/garden. Love the videos Myelin, would love to discuss Destiny concepts!
Love Patrick Rothfuss! I developed a thing for him through dungeons and dragons shows and podcasts before I listened to the audio books. He writes VEEEEERY SLOOOOOOWLY though, so don't burn through it to fast, you'll have a ling wait ahead lol
I very much like this Theory. I was actually not really digging this lorebooks so far because it seems so confusing and I couldn't understand where was getting too so far, but hearing this puts a good bit of it into perspective and I really enjoyed it.
From this it seems to me that the life that chose both sides and started trying to subvert the main origional game, trying to control it. The light and Darkness both created the Vex to correct the issue on both sides, acting as a neutral enforcer of the game. But the Vex went awry as they eventually would cut outeven the light and darkness themselves, with nothing left but the game and endless grey so to speak. They both saw this happening and decided to create something new from each of them that were mirror images, representing them respectively and that could prevent the vex from doing away with them. For the light, ghosts and Guardians, and for the Darkness, the nightmares and Veil.
I can only wonder….. if the flower game is nested in a computer program, what kind of computer must be built to nest the flower game within its own pocket universe? If the Vex are children of this Garden, then perhaps it involves some kind of “quantum trick.” I speculate it has something to do with things like black holes and perhaps even nanoaugmentation and engramic encryption. As a prerequisite, it might generally involve, in some way, shape, or form, the power to move between worlds…
One more thing, the idea of Mara and Oryx interfering in the 'game' could be viewed as the chaos phase with in the simulations. They can be nested, they may know how to bypass all of this...through us, a part of the simulation that is also chaos.
I feel like we may have it flipped. The Light isn't the Gardener, the Darkness is. The darkness is the one that showed the hive how to create throne worlds, that abides the sword logic to create an undying universe. Where as the light, finds life and gives them it's gifts before abandoning them to their own survival. Just as it did with humans, and fallen.
This would explain that one really confusing part of the black garden/vex lore that I was never able to figure out. Ikora always says that the traveller and the garden were not the beginning of the vex, they were the reason. And if your theory is correct, then hat would mean that while the traveller did not create the vex, the fact that it stopped playing the game is the reason the vex were created.
Great vessels of the deep manifest of the timeless cunning, who’s power gave life to the taken king through heretics of the lunar kingdom, beware this plan is near completion- as his death was when it began~ Fear the cunning, fear the warrior, fear the fleet.....
This makes the black garden make sense. The Black Garden is the birth place of the Vex. It's a massive bed of flowers in most parts. Hmmmmmm🤔🤔🤔 Maybe it's where the Light and Dark played their game. When the Light left, because it got frustrated, only the darkness remained. Maybe that's why the Awoken call it the Black Garden. Because they know there is no light there. And that's why it's the birth place of the vex. Because they were born in the same place where the light quit the game.
I believe this is only partially the truth. I’d imagine the Garrdener (aka the Light) and the Winnower (the Darkness) we’re always at odds, with the two often fighting over what crop was good or bad. Eventually the Gardener had enough and fled, and the Winnower is pursuing the Gardener and trying to correct things.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
That makes so much sense as ikora says (paraphrasing) the garden asked a question and the vex were the answer.
Yep, after this video the penny finally dropped! The vex future we see in curse of osiris is exactly this - no light no dark, a neutral game as described in the lore books.
@@daniels5631 its the end-state of the ant game. The same pattern repeating forever. Never diverging, always the same.
Peter Avram could you perhaps call the vex “fate”
Carpe Mkarzi exactly what I was going to comment. Spot on with that
Indeed, now the backstroy starts to make sense. I must hand it to the writes, because even dialogue in D1, Stranger saying: " You have to pick a side, even if it is the wrong side", makes sense. I just wonder that was it so that this is still from the very original Destiny plot by Joseph Staten.
“The vex are not the enemy.”
*me in VOG*
The loot begs to differ!
YES ALL THE LOOT!
But that is the vex of the vault
The vex of the garden (the soul divisive) have almost opposite objectives
The vex in the vault believe that if they use their own strength over time and space, they can destroy the universe and rebuild it vex
The vex in the garden believe if they worship the darkness that is there, that they will ascend and become something more
(I know you were making a joke but still)
I've always wondered how the Vex came to exist seeing as they are basically an algorithm. Something must have created it
Well I hate to burst your bubble but it is now season 14, the primary enemy is the vex because if I dont kill them I dont get decrypted data.
"Vex are not the enemy" i dunno man, sounds like something a Vex would say
Me: *Exists*
Vex: " Hey that's illegal!"
Yeah. Wasn't the first thing the vex did when they saw humanity was kill people?
Before watching: "Hah, yeah right"
After watching: "oh"
"Here's what we have on Gatelords: Three stories tall.. protect the realms the Vex keep locked out of time. Time? ...that can't be right"
~Ghost, D1, Eye of A Gatelord
I read this in dinklebots voice
@@jaredf.6532 Same
Rip dinklebot 😔😭
Bungie: *Gives us a mission where we befriend the Vex*
Me: *finishes the mission* Oh boy now I can just- *gets shot to death by 'friendly' Vex on Nessus*
Lol
Is that the harpie that's the mind of he captain of the exedous ship mission?
@@owellwellwell2418 yeah it is
How smart is it really to build a vex portal within the city walls?
Robert Gray *Atheon Peaks his head through* I HEARD YOU TALKING SHIT!
Howabout vex portals in old Chicago, I'm still waiting for old Chicago since 2013
Os that anti-Vex bigotry I hear🤨 Why cant Vex come into the city!?! Is it because they microorganisms!?!
*I HAVE SEVERAL QUESTIONS*
Or just send a massive army to where your character is first revived and prevent everything that they did
I dunno man, ive killed enough of them to make it personal on their end.
But they built saint 14 a shrine for doing just that.
Vex: “You know what? You’re a dick. But goddamn it, do I respect you.”
Saint-14: *Turned into Schrödinger's Cat* (Nods approvingly) “Things could be so much worse... or can they?”
Darkness Exists, the Formless One Exists, and the Speaker is dead
S14: “Ohhh they definitely can be worse.”
meanie boo by that logic, is our guardian like the end all be all collectors prize to the vex?
@meanie boo He could be doing that in an another timeline
KING of Lo-Fi ASMR lol
i absolutely love this philosophical aspect of destiny's lore
Eh not the first to do this but still enjoyable
Skepz I am the boomer knight! :D
"Imagine a world without me." *Ad immediately starts playing*
C&P, Chicken & Potatoes, at C&P we know our C's & P's.
"So anyway, I started blasting"
The artwork at the beginning of the videos never cease to amaze me
Thanks :)
Probably my favorite one yet.
I love these theories because they carry so much possibility in them, it almost convinced you
The vex killed Saint-14, therefore an enemy of mankind.
Known Enemys
Cabal-Took Our Light
Vex-Killed Saint-14
Scorn-Killed Cayde-6
What It Is with Killing Exo's?
It has but it hasn't, if you play the mission it is a future where the sun is dead, that about four billions years in the future for our planet. So saint-14 still alive, be dead in some far future.
@@borisnetDJ No. Saint 14 is dead in our time, we take his shotgun, and we're going to go back in time (sometime in the future) to give him his shotgun, which in turn we will inspire him to be the hero that he is and he will die, as he did, and we will find his shotgun, and go back in time. A loop, the "Perfect Paradox".
@@borisnetDJ Also everything in the infinite forest is a simulation. You do realize we don't actually travel time when we're in there right? We just look at the realities and outcomes the vex are testing.
@@virulenthunter3017 But Saint-14 isn't simulation. Remember that vex can't simulate the light. He went to infinite forest by himself looking for Osiris and died there fighting thousands of vex, and vex finally can manage to create a machine to drain his light after years.
So the vex we’re trying to kill the traveler because it made guardians, who can resurrect disrupting the game of life.
And thus being "An Evil so dark it despises other Evil". What if the Traveler is that other evil.....
Ciel off topic but I was thinking since there are lots of pyramid ships and they can produce things out of the darkness like nightmares, and the traveler can make those light figures that talk to us in the red war story. There might be more than one traveler.
@@notNic227 hmm... Very possible.
Or... Perhaps it's the last one?
Ciel *gasp*
Issue: Throne Worlds cheat death!
With Darkness!
Ghosts can be simply considered tiny talking oversouls made of light. (Paraphrased from Toland)
The majority of the Vex are to destroy light & dark... They hate both & cannot understand both paracausal forces.
The Sol Divisive were a Vex Collective to worship Darkness out of fear for what they do not know... The most logical rout to something a species science can't explain is reverance & worship.
Guys. The lore isn't hard to elaborate, if you read videogame lore like a novel, as I do. :)
Anyhow, good insight on the Traveler / Light side of the equation.
Damn....even the watermark on gammatrap's artwork looks good and blends in
That's how you know someone is good!
You're too kind :)
@@Gammatrap its true
So when the agent of the nine refers to “he/she can leave this game”. The emissary was not breaking the 4th wall, but referencing the flower game and our ability to choose between the Gardner and the winnower. As opposed to following our dogma
Convergence has no side. Computers have no side.
They only care for the input.
Beard_Grizzly but beard the vex aren’t computers. They are radiolaria
Holy crap. It's Beard peeps!
Vex are not computers, there liquid silica life
@@Blastanker isn't life just a computer anyway? Not much difference in the end
@@iCore7Gaming in my opinion consciousness is just a super complex software
Bungie is trying to teach me science...Respect
Could this game being played by the Traveler and the Darkness be the game to which The Emissary of The Nine referred in the end of Season of the Drifter? Perhaps it wasn't the 4th wall break that we first thought 🤔
i like that idea its also very meta.
In myelins livestream we talked about that. That’s what we all assume at this point but who knows..
Emissary says that our fate is in the hands of lair, afraid, untrustworthy and forever grasping. Could they be referred to the traveller?
Edit: also states that this is the shape of our trail. And previously says that are we going to be the fourth being who transcend our design " being protector of the traveller and guardians"
Jeff Thompson dammmmnnnnn son
What does she say?
In Computer science we had to code the "flower game". It was called "the game of life" iirc
If anyone's interested, look up Wolfram's rule 110 cellular automata, it's an insanely small cellular automata that is Turing universal.
Just in case you did not see it. The Shadowkeep livestreams can be found in the community tab. ruclips.net/user/MyelinGamescommunity
Thnx for the english subtitles pls keep adding them 😊
Just the music in these videos is soooo entertaining I get hyped every Sunday for this
I think i just figured out a huge influence in the games lore. The line from the lore tab gardener and winnower "They had no antecedent and no constituents" struck me. I can't find the passage but i'm sure that's almost a direct quote from Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian, which contains one of the darkest characters in literature who seeks to order the world. If you look on youtube there are audiobook sections "The judge on science" and that seems to be a primary influence to the vex. And that made me realize that "the judge on war" passage (also on youtube) is very very similar to the hive's sword logic.
"we are not your friends, we are not your enemies, we are your salvation" just what fate are the Vex trying to prevent through the extinction of paracausal entities, aka being who can create sub games within the game of life.
So ... since they're not the enemy, does that explain why the hobgoblin units always wave at us before we start killing each other?
MagusKali yes, the Vex is like a gun, it’s not the shooter.. we’ haven’t seen them yet.
MagusKali hahahahaha
Imagine if using the wave emote to greet them and not opening fire on/ damaging Vex units was all it took to just not have them attack you, at least in patrol and outside of missions anyway.
Awesome lore input. Kind of explains why the Garden Vex are integrating into the garden and turning into the Black Garden. Both the bosses have tree bark instead of vex plates.
Finally bungie released some Vex lore. Finally.
How much you wanna bet The Gardener is The Darkness and The Winnower is The Light. After all.. it raised us to kill other species. Pruning back the unworthy. We even proved ourselves a part of the final shape according to the Sword Logic by killing Oryx.
Actually... you may be on to something there. There's the strange statues of a veiled woman on the pyramid ship AND in the Black Garden, and the concept art from D1 shows the same statues holding what's clearly meant to be a depiction of the Traveler. When you account for the imagery of a woman being commonly associated with being nurturing, those statues could easily be interpreted as a Gardener holding a Winnow.
It's commonly understood that the Traveler goes around helping out different civilizations, only to abandon them when the Darkness shows up in pursuit, and that humanity was the one exception for some reason. But stop and think about it, and you realize that there's actually *zero* evidence to back this up. It's always just been pure speculation, with the only thing that's even remotely close to "evidence" being the fact that the Fallen were abandoned by the Traveler. We know so little about the Whirlwind that we don't even know if it was the Darkness that caused it; we just assumed it was the same as the Collapse. Looking into it further, there's actually some evidence to suggest that the Whirlwind was caused by in-fighting amongst the Fallen during their golden age, and that *that* is why the Traveler abandoned them.
So, if the Traveler is a "Winnower", it sorted the Fallen into the "failed crop" category when they showed that they couldn't maintain a perfect society and moved on to the next, and the Darkness -- aka the "Gardener" -- came later to clear out this bad crop to make room for new crops. Humanity, meanwhile, may have been judged as a "good crop", and the Collapse was actually the Traveler reaping said crop so the Darkness could come and sow the harvest -- remember, Ghosts and Guardians came *after* the Collapse. If they were created to defend the Traveler from the Darkness like we assume, how does it make sense for the Traveler to defend itself *after* the Darkness attacked and left? Come to think of it, why did the Darkness leave at all if its goal was to wipe everyone out? If the Collapse really was an attack by the Darkness, why didn't it finish the job?
@@xaldynnemo47 Very interesting
@@xaldynnemo47 that is kind of in line with the original conception of Destiny and the traveller being somewhat evil or something like that
Nope. In the Grimoire, The Traveller is sometimes referred to as “The Gardener”, or “The Great Gardener of Worlds”.
@@RavenWolffe77 that would explain why the Traveler was terra forming planets and moons.
What’s really interesting is the how I think of the Black Garden after learning of the game of life. It’s structured like the stoic blocks stated, with flowers on the ‘board’
I play video games to escape existentialism... Now I find out one of my most played games epitomizes the exact thing I seek to escape.
When the darkness mentions that you need both the dark and the light, I can’t help but think back to the beginning. The was no dark, there was no light, but they worked together and built off each other, proving we need both.
MovableFormula ikr but guess the darkness got too strong
The Great BOI
The Darkness didn’t get too strong, the traveller defected from the game and presumably was the one that put a wrench in the gears.
Ulan Tan was a Warlock that realized this, and was exiled because of it.
It's almost always agents of the dark, or those enamored of them, who are the first to start spouting this stuff before it hooks into peoples' doubts and gets repeated among followers of the Light. (and that's not just in Destiny, but in all sorts of stories). This is because you cannot have darkness without light - it needs a positive state in order to define it's negative one. Yet light can exist perfectly well without darkness.
Imagine a room. With a light source you get dark shadows. As the light grows stronger you get darker shadows. However, if there is not one, but a multitude of lights, perhaps to the point of being omnipresent, darkness is eradicated and the room is bathed in warmth.
Don't let the agents of darkness fool you thinking you need them. Their kind words conceal knives.
Vex: Unified the universe with mass uniform efficiency
Fallen: Low grade militias alien struggle to be alive
Cabal: Flawed warmonger who ideology is to bring peace though brute force (atleast in Emperor Calus mind)
Hive: Ancient race who apparently are prepare for something worse
and then there's the Taken, straight up bad guy, lmfao
On the Hive's part, they are led by Hive supremacists who believe in the rule of Steong over Weak. The lore explains that the Hive, especially when led by Oryx, are conquering. They are prolonging their species, saving themselves from extinction, by killing off all other species they come in contact with. On top of that, Oryx created the Taken and are in his "image", so the Taken, constantly fighting and destroying and infecting, are doing so because that is exactly what Oryx & the Hive commanded them to do. A nonstop war machine made up of semi-conscious zombie species that infects & kills everything... with no master to pull back on their leash.
Contextualization is the missing ingredient in Destiny lore and you, sir, do a damn good job providing that. I love the research you put into this episode and it pays off with a strong argument. I also just love that we're finally getting origin and creation myth for the universe with this book.
Yes!!! The Kingkiller Chronicle series is such a good read. Highly recommend it to everyone including non fantasy readers.
Congrats on the Sponsor and great vid too. I always think back to the Nessus quests with the Vex and all of their instances of reaching out to communicate or request help. I think one of them were the O Captain mission and the idea of the Vex harpy being the Exodus Captain!
I figured that the pyramid ships were the keepers of balance between light and dark. The golden age was a beacon of light to them, so they came and caused the collapse, but left one ship behind to keep watch. Once the traveler awoke after the red war, it alerted them that the balance had been upset, and so now they are coming back to set things right once more.
I listen to the whole video just so I can hear the way you say peace! Cracks me up.
This is why you are the best Lore guy ever -
What about My Name is Byf?
@@eliasacevedo5711 he's great too
This is actually very great! And makes so much sense. Idk about yall but I've seen versions of these stories before. Not Destiny but the Life and Death thing. Where as the Light (Life) learned to hate or started to hate Darkness (Death) because it kept "killing" it's creations. Though Death is only doing it's, well, job. And wouldn't it be so funny that these chaos is happening because the Light decided to rebel against its nature to create something that could die for balance, but it started to create almost immortal beings and keeps running away from the Darkness lol
Then you add Awoken/Fallen/etc in the mix, everyone wants that immortality thing so the universe just keeps getting unbalanced. And the Darkness is just here like "wtf Light." lol
It has been several months since I last played, mostly because I have been too poor to afford the DLC as of late. Which is why I love lore videos because they keep me up to date with the story. That said, this one has me vexed.
VOG has two meanings:
(D1) Vault of Glass
(D2) Vault of Grass
The game is also mentioned in one of the cutscenes of the invitation of the 9. Don‘t remember which week it was, but the emissary was talking to the nine and she mentioned that „He can leave the game“
RUclips: Google's Quantum Supremacy
Also RUclips: The vex are not the enemy
Me: Ohno
Plot twist we are the vex
THE DARK333SIDE
Well, the Vex *are* biological...
This is easily my favorite Vex theory of all time. I love how were finally getting some level of answers. It was worth the wait.
I really like the symmetry between light and darkness in Destiny and actual physics, how there has to be exactly the same amount of dark energy as (positive) energy in the universe, everything has to sum up to 0 because that's what everything started from and it's what everything will go to at some point
What are you saying? I'm just supposed to let that damn consecrated mind poop on me and like it????
Maybe that's what the Emissary of the Nine meant as well when she told The Drifter to, "keep playing the game."
These philosophical ideas are what keep me playing the game and want me to find out more week over week keep up the great content thank you
congrats on the audible sponsor dude!
Absolute mastery of lore Myelin, bravo. These theories are incredible 👍🏻 I love the fact that Vex are enforcers of existence because Light and Dark can't stop tampering with the rules. Brilliant 👌🏼
I love listening to these lore videos, specially considering that I also watch Byf, and sometimes you have different interpretations of the lore, it makes it all more interesting, keep up the great work! Cellular Automata
I love watching byf, myelin, evaze and Evan
Gammatrap art is usually good but I especially love the goblin and the flower for some reason. The idea of alien life showing human behavior maybe?
With the Mara Sov quote, you really must appreciate how much of this world-building was already hinted at in advance. The Mara Sov quote would have first been in the game a year ago, and now we have Shadowkeep solidifying the cellular automata game into the story. In fact, the subgames within the master game IS the story of Destiny.
Mathew I cannot stop thinking about your interpretation of this. So very cool. I can’t get it out of my mind... all day!
Smh, Guardians getting sponsors. Next you'll tell me that Omolon sponsors Zavala in the next expansion.
Halberd-3 everyone knows the vanguard is sponsored by Hakke.
@@kregadeth5562 how do u know
ERIC Krasniewski I don’t even have time to explain why I don’t have time to explain
@@kregadeth5562 even then I thinks more likely suros sponsors vanguard
ERIC Krasniewski actually I forgot about suros when I started all of this.
This is by far one of my favorite lore videos! Awesome job myelin!
Wow thanks for the breakdown Myelin. My mind is blown every time a revelation in the lore is unveiled. I can’t wait to see what comes in the future!
Calus said that the vex were gardeners and farmers. Now that line finally makes sense.
is the "ant" the traveler? or is it the "life" and evolution? is the traveler more of an intentional mechanism then? wouldn't that make the traveler an agent of chaos as well, not too dissimilar from those like oryx and savathuun? the traveler moves from system to system initiating a seed of chaos through abondonment or by its introduction of the life catalyst...it is a chaotic experiment or game within a game presumably to control some aspect
I think it's worth noting that in the context in which "constituents" is used, it may actually be referring to the definition meaning "a component part of something."
myelin please talk about the lore books in-game of praedyth's journals while in the vault of glass. Found it interesting when he mentioned that the vex "feared", or as much as they can fear something, the vex of the sol divisive even fighting with them at times!!!!!! This would be so cool to explore more deeply!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I want to know the link between the warlock Ullan-tan and all of this, how did she know about the symetry? And why did the vanguard banned her if they knew she was right? As ikora said in the season of undying: "the garden raised up a question, the vex are the answer"
I love this video. It also fuels a sneaky suspicion I have the Light isn’t pure good, but also a force trying to make its own rules with a specific (and unbalanced) world view.
I can't remember the lore piece, but i remember it talked about who said the light is 'light' its just a name we made up for it to make ourselves feel like the good guys. Also look at Graviton Forfeits lore
things are getting interesting! awesome video, good to know you're getting support and sponsorship!
The traveler: Welp I don’t wanna play anymore and want to make things live forever.
Darkness: wait what you can’t do that- that’s not fair.
Vex: yo you talking a lot of shit for someone within crusading distance.
Traveler leaves and goes and makes things for a unhealthy amount of time, the darkness literally just chasing them to try and fix the game and fix what there doing wrong. How they are disrupting the pattern. The game for wanting to make others live forever.
The darkness is just trying to desperately clean up how the traveler has strayed from the pattern.
Set things right in a balance.
No the vex are the balance
Darkness is cheating aswell
joeyno137
The Darkness isn’t trying to cheat. It’s followers are.
@@joeyno137 it HAS to cheat to keep up with the LIGHTS CHEATING
It is a kind of paradox, light and darkness play a game, live and need together, light goes away and starts cheating in the game, darkness wants the light to stop cheating and to play the game in a 'legit' way. So the 'light' did what we shall call a darkness move, and the darkness on the other hand, made a 'light' move.
Sorry if my English is not good and if I do not know a lot on the lore.
The Darkness is trying to kill everyone and literally preaches the idea that those who died DESERVED to die because they're weak, and aren't any better than those who never existed at all. This is the exact same idea that caused the Hive to go about killing trillions for a billion years. Also, instead of hearing the Gardener out when they wanted a new rule, the Darkness tried to murder them repeatedly, even when they offered peace. I don't know what impression you got from The Unveiling, but "[...]I said in rising panic/fury" does not give the implication the Darkness was reacting logically.
Yeah, in THEIR mind the Gardener caused a mess and they're trying to clean it up, but they're trying to do so by murdering all the universes that were created by THEIR fight with the Gardener. All the LIVES THEY created. (Also, keep in mind it's the DARKNESS that claims the Gardener wants everything to live forever and never die. We have no solid idea of what the Gardener actually wants.)
The Darkness isn't some misunderstood hero who wants to fix everything that mean Gardener broke, they're a sociopath who doesn't like change or complexity so they're trying to kill everything until things go back to the way they were before.
Great book suggestion at the start. I love the name of the wind!
What if the Vex are the ones creating the legendary and Exotic engrams that we get throughout the universe? That could explain how we can see multiple copies of the same exotic that is thought to have only been made once amongst the Guardians. Or not.
Edit: I mistook world for universe.
If Vex are here to restore the game, then why didn't they attack Mara or Oryx? Since you said that Mara and Oryx are cheating the game/trying to disrupt it.
Maybe they have been occupied during the time oryx and mara were a thing?
The Vex did attack Oryx... but it ended with Quria being Taken by Oryx.
They DID try to to attack Oryx. It... went terribly.
@@therealcactoos9457 valid point
As others stated, they try to stop Oryx. As for Mara...Well, the last time we saw her, she said she would soon meet a friend who would tell her "a side should always be taken". We all know to whom that was referring ...
I posit this: what if the Vex are as old as the light and the darkness? Closest analogy I can come up with is Palkia, Dialga, and Darkrai. You have two creating things while one acts as a balance. We know the light took a corporeal form in the Traveler, the darkness is hinted at having a form too. What if this anxiety balancer decided to join the game too and became radiolaria? It's fluid to act as a "weed killer." The traveler creates, the darkness destroys, and the radiolaria creates the cutoff line between them.
So if entities such as Mara and Oryx need to be cleaned from the universe are we in the same boat? We cheat death all the time with our ghosts. What are the Fallen/Cabal to the Vex then? The following are what their name shows them to be, erase scattered across the system searching for a time that doesn't exist anymore. The Cabal are a (leaderless?) war machine. This is a really interesting concept and it does seem to fit with the mysteries of the Vex/garden. Love the videos Myelin, would love to discuss Destiny concepts!
Totally agree!
They are like the universal police force, in a sense
Damn, Gammatrap . You’ve done it again. So good dude
I think this time you absolutely hit a home run.
Love Patrick Rothfuss! I developed a thing for him through dungeons and dragons shows and podcasts before I listened to the audio books. He writes VEEEEERY SLOOOOOOWLY though, so don't burn through it to fast, you'll have a ling wait ahead lol
This is a really interesting perspective on the vex. They are the answer, not the question. lol
I very much like this Theory. I was actually not really digging this lorebooks so far because it seems so confusing and I couldn't understand where was getting too so far, but hearing this puts a good bit of it into perspective and I really enjoyed it.
From this it seems to me that the life that chose both sides and started trying to subvert the main origional game, trying to control it. The light and Darkness both created the Vex to correct the issue on both sides, acting as a neutral enforcer of the game. But the Vex went awry as they eventually would cut outeven the light and darkness themselves, with nothing left but the game and endless grey so to speak. They both saw this happening and decided to create something new from each of them that were mirror images, representing them respectively and that could prevent the vex from doing away with them. For the light, ghosts and Guardians, and for the Darkness, the nightmares and Veil.
I am so glad to come across someone else who enjoys the name of the wind!!!
God I love destiny lore. Thank you myelin for making me understand it all :)
I think it's time for osiris to come back.
Wouldn't it be funny if he just pops in the gate we're building in the tower? Surprise motherf**ckers
@Derek Harbaugh Time Travel?
The artwork is phenomenal
I can only wonder….. if the flower game is nested in a computer program, what kind of computer must be built to nest the flower game within its own pocket universe? If the Vex are children of this Garden, then perhaps it involves some kind of “quantum trick.” I speculate it has something to do with things like black holes and perhaps even nanoaugmentation and engramic encryption. As a prerequisite, it might generally involve, in some way, shape, or form, the power to move between worlds…
great vid, but you running away from the overload minotaurs the whole time instead of stunning them definitely _VEXED_ me
One more thing, the idea of Mara and Oryx interfering in the 'game' could be viewed as the chaos phase with in the simulations. They can be nested, they may know how to bypass all of this...through us, a part of the simulation that is also chaos.
Just going by the title, I never thought the Vex were "evil" per say but they just are what they are. Variables in a code they seek to understand.
Some parts in that garden entry remind of Ruin Wings from D1.
I feel like we may have it flipped. The Light isn't the Gardener, the Darkness is. The darkness is the one that showed the hive how to create throne worlds, that abides the sword logic to create an undying universe. Where as the light, finds life and gives them it's gifts before abandoning them to their own survival. Just as it did with humans, and fallen.
Myelin: Sponsored by Audible
Me: Excitement noises
This would explain that one really confusing part of the black garden/vex lore that I was never able to figure out. Ikora always says that the traveller and the garden were not the beginning of the vex, they were the reason. And if your theory is correct, then hat would mean that while the traveller did not create the vex, the fact that it stopped playing the game is the reason the vex were created.
The winnower and the gardener are just the Adam and Eve of destiny
Wow, there must have been some serious prep put in on that one. Great video.
Great vessels of the deep manifest of the timeless cunning, who’s power gave life to the taken king through heretics of the lunar kingdom, beware this plan is near completion- as his death was when it began~
Fear the cunning, fear the warrior, fear the fleet.....
Possibly my favorite lore video
This one was very interesting!
I love this theory. It reminds me of the theories regarding Atheon and the Sol Progeny.
This makes the black garden make sense. The Black Garden is the birth place of the Vex. It's a massive bed of flowers in most parts. Hmmmmmm🤔🤔🤔 Maybe it's where the Light and Dark played their game. When the Light left, because it got frustrated, only the darkness remained. Maybe that's why the Awoken call it the Black Garden. Because they know there is no light there. And that's why it's the birth place of the vex. Because they were born in the same place where the light quit the game.
I believe this is only partially the truth. I’d imagine the Garrdener (aka the Light) and the Winnower (the Darkness) we’re always at odds, with the two often fighting over what crop was good or bad. Eventually the Gardener had enough and fled, and the Winnower is pursuing the Gardener and trying to correct things.
But... But... Pew pew lasers at me...
What immediately comes to mind is the Emissary of the Nine's statement when she said the player can "escape this game"
We must revive the Time's Conflux, Atheon