Starship Troopers: When You Don't Understand Satire
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- Starship Troopers: When You Don't Understand Satire
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Art and Animation by Just Some Guy
Original trailer concept: FMA Brotherhood & Black Summoner
Music: "Enkon Hakuchuumu" by Sakagami Souichi - Copyright (C) 2015 Trial & Error/Sakagami Souichi All rights reserved.
Trial & Error: www.tandess.com...
NOTE: Thanks to those who caught the errors.
Helldivers 2!
Hey @JustSomeGuy can you do reviews of Witch Doctor or Monster Kill Squad?
This is a very common thing that I hear all across social media, that most people just don't get Starship Troopers.
To the contrary, I have always thought that, instead, Paul Verhoven did the opposite of what he intended to do, and he actually made fascism look GOOD. The setting of Starship troopers is and Earth where people of all races get along, where the people all seem to be well fed and happy, and the system in general appears to be working. This wasn't the case with Fascism in the real world, either in Germany, Italy, or to a lesser extent, Japan. Yes, Japan.
There is virtually none of the dark side of fascism shown in Starship troopers, just a bunch of patriotic earthers going up against a threat to all of mankind.
The next time Verhoven attempts to do something like this, maybe he should be a little less subtle about the point he's trying to get across. And this is coming from somebody who hates how ham-fisted most movies with a political message are.
(Which is kind of ironic given the fact that his movie has virtually nothing In common with the book besides the names of the characters, but the book made Fascism look good as well.)
@@zionleach3001 I'm not familiar with those. Are they TV shows?
@@JustSomeGuyyou spitting hella HERESY my boy🤨...you do agree that human supremacy amongst the stars is the only way.."right"
"Brain? Bugs? Frankly, I find the idea of a bug that thinks offensive!"
"Listen, there must be a hivemind, a leadership caste..."
So say the billionare politician about his constituency.
The acting and the delivery of that line was so hilarious indeed :)
@@krzosuYeah the guy’s face and bucktooth expression really sells it 😂😂
No what's offensive is how bugs the size of cars & buildings can hurl rocks the size of asteroids 20 lights years in respects to distance with being affected by the gravitational pull of orbits vis celestial bodies(planets) hit earth but never bodies of water only highly populated cities and military insulations. Maybe because the only good bug is a dead bug! Also zegema beach was wiped out because can the bugs also have sniper like precision. And don't the need warp drive just to get to klendathu. Which takes hours?!😂 And these asteroids can reach earth and like interested planets without being destroyed or vaporized via the sheer strength it takes to throw an asteroid or how fast it would need to reach it's targets. One last something given has no value quoted by the teacher. Ironically that fascist regime which it is are given your resources, time, Intellect and the power to exist. Would u like to know more!
The major disconnect comes from people who read the book and people who watched the movie. The message is very different in ALMOST the same clothes.
And the film is still better than the books. ;)
I would hope that is sarcasm, because the book is great.
@@IncognitoActivado There's only one ST book.
People who read the book, if anything, are the first to recognize that neither is the Federation in the movie facsit, nor are they the baddies, nor is this a good parody of facism.
Because even after giving them SS Uniforms, the Federation as portrayed in the movie is STILL a liberal democracy with limited suffrage, fighting a defensive war against a genocidal enemy.
There Is nohing facist about them.
There's nothing fascist about the portrayal in the book either. Heinlein literally just proposes a democracy with severely limited suffrage. There's no voting under Fascism.@@Alexander_Kale
"Only good bug, is a dead bug"
You want to live forever
@@cryo9017i would like to know more😉
@@cryo9017 living forever is overrated. You'll be bored after you've been alove so long that you've done everything a couple billion times.
Living forever is a hell that doesnt end, it's endless boredom
@@youtubestudiosucks978 bro what it's a joke
@@malfadan4455 Nice
Verhoeven saw the original Troopers premise merely as a convenient commercial vehicle for his views on Fascism and Nazism - which he suffered greatly under during WWII. But Heinlein's book is not about either. It's a political argument on embracing personal responsibility in the face of an uncompromising existential threat, and the resulting leadership role that struggle can empower. The movie is an apple made out of an orange. They are similar, but not the same, and incomparable.
I will say that the book have one element of Fascism, corporal punishment toward soldiers, like lashing. Corporal punishment is a big no, in a democratic state.
@@kirgan1000Wasn't just soldiers, was civilians also. I reckon there would be a lot less drunk driving if the sentence was 50 lashes as is mentioned in passing in the book.
And the film is much better than the books, so?
@@kirgan1000 Corporal punishment was commonly practiced by militaries throughout history, not just by fascists.
@@IndusRiverFlow Still is technically
You read as much Starship Troopers as Paul Verhoeven did.
When he said he only read 20 pages of the book before putting it down, he just admitted to not having any credibility in him defending the movie as satire.
His arguments are less a defense of the movie and more an attack on the twitter users religion and politics.
That's a glaring flaw of his, I've noticed.
If he doesn't agree with something he knows nothing about it or everything he thinks he knows, is wrong, instead of verifying he isn't completely ignorant, he just goes full steam a head on a mission to look as ignorant as possible.
If this was about the book, you would all have a point, but it's clearly about the movie, which is only loosely based on the book. In fact, since you don't seem to recognize that very obvious point, I suspect the people commenting "he admitted he didn't read the book" also didn't read the book. Reading the book is not relevant to discussing Starship Troopers the movie because, as the OP points out, Verhoeven didn't read the book either.
The book is bland. Deal with it. And he instantly says hes talking about the movie. He uses clips etc from the movie.
@@jamespaul6315he says about one of the seminal works of modern science fiction that gave us the entire concept of powered armor, orbital drops, and many more sci fi tropes youd consider vital to the genre
The Film doesn't really actually say how the overall Conflict Started between men and Bug. But it does show at least show how the current conflict reignited.
1. there's the destruction of Buenos Aires by a meteorite. which the federation determines was Directed to Earth by a Plasma Bug. (There are people that theorize the Federation attacked itself to rile up the citizens, but this go's against the Book, where the Bugs learn of Earth's location from the Skinnies (Another Alien species.) and send an attack force down to Buenos Aires to attack the city,) this causes the Citizens of the Federation to vote to go to war and attack Klendathu directly in the Arachnid Quarantine Zone.
2. A group of Mormon Colonizer traveled to another Planet within the Arachnid Quarantine Zone to Colonize it. They did this against the wishes of the federation because the Mormon's wanted to establish their own government outside the reach of the Federation. Unfortunately the Federation's warnings prove to be correct as the Bug's find the Morman colony of Port Joe Smith and kill all but 2 survivors. The federation records the aftermath and uses it to discourage other Radicals from colonizing within the Arachnid Quarantine Zone.
The Bug's might have been pushing back from a prior conflict. But at least from what we directly see in the movie. The Bug's have been the primary aggressor.
It's kind of amazing how a government that grants its people so much freedom that they can just pack up and leave against the government's suggestion and the government is powerless to stop them is "Facist" in so many peoples' view..
@@wun1geeWell, a passing glance at modern politics in the west is all one needs to realize that the word has lost all functional meaning.
The Skinnies are from the book? I haven't seen the whole series, but I thought they were created for Roughnecks: Starship Trooper Chronicles. (I recommend it based on what I saw when it originally aired. Throwback Toons is putting the episodes up now.)
@@ShadowWingTronix They're from the book. They're a race that the Terran Federation is engaged in sabre-rattling with. The opening portion of the book is Rico talking about a raid on a Skinny city. Later the Skinnies and the Terran Federation become allies against the Arachnids.
@@ShadowWingTronix THE SKINNIES ARE LITERALLY THE FIRST FUCKING CHAPTER OF THE BOOK!
Like, I'm sorry for the caps, but WHAT THE FUCK.
Paul Verhoeven didn't read the book. He's on record saying he read like 3 pages and got bored and decded to use the IP as a vehicle for his politics rather than a faithful retelling of the story.
Sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it?
And watching it now it's overtly obvious.
I read the whole thing. It's not very good and has little relationship to the film.
And I don't care. ;)
Doesn’t matter movie is awesome!
@@IncognitoActivadomovie is awesome
The people who made the movie literally just used the name and attached it to their script that just so happened to have some similarities just to get brand recognition. They also didn’t like the original book.
I don’t get wanting to adapt a movie from a source material you dislike
@@matityaloran9157 Neither do I, but have you seen basically any movie or series "based" on a comic book after Avengers: Endgame?
Starship Troopers was one of Heinlien's least recognizable books. There was no brand recognition at the time. All the movie did was highlight the horible nature of the human society in the book while toneing down the overt sexist and classist parts of the book. The movie took out the overt terrorist actions of the human society against other sentient aliens, and took away the power armor because they could not make it look good with practical effects or CGI at the time.
@swimmingmide
Human society in the book was not horrible, sexist, or classist in any way. In fact, it was better AND more equal than ANY society today. Women literally comprised the majority of fleet personnel because women tended to perform better in those skillsets.
@@swimmingmide The book unironically sounds like Helldivers lore... which in this case Considering how overt Helldivers is makes it hilarious if Helldivers or More true to the book then the movie was.
Sympathizing with bugs again huh?
Right? Sounds like someone could benefit from 10 lashes.
Yup. Of course Leftoids would identify with what Heinlein wrote as an allegory for Communism. It's like he created a Leftie detector, as well as a book 😂 .
Are you missing the point on purpose or are you just dumb?
Leftys relate to the bugs. Libertarians relate to the humans. The only good bug....
@@jimtaylor294not about that, but the context of the movie is about governments manipulating people, weither the bugs are sympathetic or not makes no difference that this isn't about men defensing their home, it's about being tricked and fucked by the government in the movie, you guys just seem to want to miss the point.
The Bugs of star ship troopers are not the Formics of enders game.
This.
Was about to say this.
Someone was a cool kid and had Ender's Game as required reading
"The Bugs of star ship troopers are not the Formics of enders game." insert clapping gif. Hit the nail on the head. If you guys haven't yet, read Ender's Shadow. Same story as Ender's Game, told from the simultaneous (mostly) perspective of Bean. It's a way better read IMO.
What's hilarious right now is that the same people who call ST(either version) fascist are now pushing a bill that basically is service guarantees citizenship.
and that same bill is against the will of their constituents.
This bill you speak of is the kind of shit that led to the downfall of the Roman Republic
Carl literally says "We're in it for the species."
But Terran Empire bad.
“Terran Empire bad” IS the point of the movie, though, and that can’t be argued with. Whether or not it misses the point of the novel is a different can of worms altogether on which JSG can’t comment.
@@Zeburaman2005 It most certainly can be argued. The Terran Empire is literally fighting a genocidal war that they did not start. Fighting back in said war is hardly enough to make you the bad guy. Especially when it's shown that your enemy does not negotiate and does not seem to understand proporationate responses...
@@Zeburaman2005 I don't have to argue with the point the movie is trying to make to point out that it fails hilariously in making said point.
IF verhoeven really tried to make the Federation into the bad guys, he failed. The Federationis a liberal democracy fighting a defensive war against an enemy who wants to eat every man, woman and child.
The class room lecture in the beginning is lifted directly from the book, and even THAT does not make them into the bad guy.
@@Alexander_KaleIn that case it would be more accurate to say that the movie _does not_ make the point that the Terran Federation was bad.
Paul Verhoeven's politically ignorant self _wanted_ to make that point, but the piece of media he produced doesn't actually make that point.
@@Alexander_Kale That's because it's incredibly hard to argue with the phlosophies behind "That which is given has no value" and "Violence is the authority from which all other authority is derived". Those are both universal truths. Verhoeven tried to villainize those concepts and failed hilariously at it.
When you fail at criticism and the audience likes your protagonist.
Like Rorschach in Watchmen. He negates the premise of the book because Alan Moore accidentally wrote him too well. 😆
@taffysaur
Rorschach actually made sense.
Basically, Barbie. Ken was the protagonist of the film, whether that was how the director intended it or not.
@BJJohnson98 Unlike Joker, though, Rorschach is actually sympathetic, and can be argued to be justified in his actions throughout the book.
@@taffysaur Rorschach's ideals are justified, but his personal issues make his actions unjustified in certain scenarios. He's an unstable person with genuinely good ideals.
That's what makes him so interesting.
Terran Federation should've sent social workers to the bug planet to solve the hostilities.
I guess this offering of food would be appreciated.
In all honestly likely by both sides if Terran Federation had similar percentages of corrupt or creep social workers to our current civilization.
What about the mormon colonist? Does that not count?
Yeah, maybe some sensitivity training and focus groups would've convinced the aliens to leave Mankind alone...
I appreciate this homage to the book more than you know.
@@wolfpacksix when did they not? it's humans coming straight at them...
The reason people like the federation are the same as why they like the Imperium:
>They're absurd
>They look cool
>They're fighting against inhuman monsters that want to kill them
>(Sane) People usually tend to side with the humans over horrifying alien monsters
And in a different future there is a God Emperor
Sane?
First Galactic Empire in Legends is stronger than the Imperium of Man
Glad you noticed Monsterf@(keeps in that last line...
XD
UNLIKE the Imperium, the Federation is also a liberal democracy who is fighting a defensive war against a very unambiguously evil enemy.
The Bugs want to genocide humanity. In a situation like this, having a strong military is not a sign of facism.
virgin "starship troopers is a satire! you are not supposed like the federation!" vs chad "yes, i do want to live in a terran federation unironically"
We also love Senator Armstrong and Keep Your Rifle By Your Side. Liking things regardless of the original intent or what others think is the true spirit of freedom.
40K Terran Empire enters the chat
@@TheSuperappelflap Everything that makes 40k great as a setting is also a reason why nobody who is truly into it would like to live theire. 40k has no point in this discussion.
Just like the amercians took "yankee doodle" and made it basically a folk song, something that was supposed to mock and anger them, they just took and ran with it, we will take Senator Armstrong, "Keep your rifle by your side" and the ST Verhoven adaptation - Terran Federation and run with it.
@@JPG.01 On the other hand, you don't need to think it's a good place to live to admire their ideals. In fact, all of history is like that.
If I remember correctly, there existed a quarantine area around bug space that was violated, in the movie's terms, "Mormon extremists." They died and because they violated the quarantine zone, the Terran Federation did nothing. It wasn't until the bugs dropped a meteor on Buenos Aires that the Terran Federation declared war.
Another Terran planet was also mentioned as being hit by the bugs, but it is unclear in the movie if it was done before war was declared or not or if the bugs were retaliating for something else.
In the context of the movie, the TF didn't go to war with them because they were bugs but the fact that they were bugs was a propaganda and recruitment selling point.
@@hellacoorinna9995 In the book we find out later that his dad lived because he was away on business.
Basically, a bunch of colonists not even affiliated with the Federation set up a colony on an "uninhabited" world, only to find out the hard way that it was occupied by giant killer bugs. In response to this mistake on the part of some rouge colonists, the bugs use a FTL weapon to attack earth and kill millions with a strike that hits South America. The Federation's military response is entirely justified, this is the equivalent of your neighbor throwing a molotov through your bedroom window because your dog took a crap on his lawn.
Paul Verhoeven didn't read the books, the movie fails as a satire because you have to go in knowing what the author intended for it to read that way.
It's not a satire on the book, dummy, it's a satire on fascism and militarialism. People keep bringing up the book because they think it's a counterpoint. It's not. Culture has forgotten about the book because it suuuucks. I actually read it unlike most of you. Mobile infantry mechs fighting skinnies and such. Nobody cares.
@@AuspexAOThe book is very culturally influential. Saying it sucks is just philistinism.
@@hellacoorinna9995 Right?! Like, I remember coming across an article about how Starship Troopers is horrible white supremacy etc, and not only is Rico a Filipino (unless you can think of another reason why he might know Tagalog), but isn't Jelly described as a "swarthy Finno-Turk from Iskander"? That's a rhetorical question, I know that is the direct quote. And that doesn't even include any other descriptions I forgot, or descriptions of characters that modern "writers" would crow about "diversity" that Heinlein just included because it was far more important that their respective characters served the human race than exhibited specific combinations of alleles in regards to skin color.
I saw this movie when I was 8, and I immediately understood it was making fun of Nazis.
He wasn't being satirical of the book but of the propaganda these militaristic types of government use to make people gungho to run off to war.
It was set in ww2 nazi Germany before they plastered the IP on it to move it forward with the studio.
The human nation that allows anyone to perform a civil service (not just military) to earn the right to vote, there is free speech, open debates, live streams of warzones, governmental leaders openly taking responsibility for failures and stepping down, and even those that don’t earn the right to vote can still become successful people while criticising the government.
That is your bad guy?
The one that false flagged Buenos Aires into vapor? Yes
Would you like to know more?
Stated without evidence.
@@supermanprime6758 How did they false flag BA? It's clearly shown that the attack on BA was a reply to the Mormon colony on Dantana...
@@supermanprime6758Got in universe proof of anything? From the book, not from a far left director's political commentary.
@@supermanprime6758 Besides head cannon theories for the movie there is no evidence of that, the bugs launch an asteroid as retaliation for Mormon colonists encroaching on their territory. The book has a more coherent explanation of how the bugs do it but in that setting they aren't a near mindless hive mind.
The bugs attacked first on a bunch of settlers who weren't even part of the federation. They settled on a planet they thought was uninhabited and got eaten. One can both recognise the satire, recognise it failed at its satirical endeavour and thereby unironically root for the protagonists it sought to satirize.
Hell, Helldivers is a better Starship Troopers.
@@Lobsterwithinternet Helldivers is pure comedy.
@@TankHunter678 And a better satire of militarism, jingoism, and fascism then Starship Troopers ever was.
Itks called a sympathetic strawman. Similar to Rorschach in Watchmen. Alan Moore is very annoyed that he is most people’s favourite character.
The humans invaded the bug's planet and were kicked out... eaten. Then other humans attacked other bug planets and were kicked out/eaten. Then the humans did a false flag attack on a human city to motivate the population to start a total war against the bugs who only ever defended their own planets. There was no way for the bugs to move the asteroid far enough or fast enough to hit the earth in the timeframe of the movie. Bug space is on the opposite side of the galaxy from human space they would have needed to shoot the asteroid millions of years ago for it to hit the earth when it did. It takes human FTL tech to move to bug space, bugs don't have FTL tech or tech at all. The whole movie is a war of aggression on the human's side.
The Federation depicted in the film is not fascist. No fascist government allows for a large population to exist outside the state. No fascist government allows you to only serve the state if you feel like it. The Federation is simply a democratic form of government in which the right to vote must be earned by voluntary public service and some military officers wear uniforms designed by Hugo Boss. Thats not fascism no matter what the director says. If he was trying to show a fascist government, or even a satire of one, he failed miserably. Probably because he didnt write the screenplay, someone who read the book did.
Sargon Of Akkad did a great job analyzing the politics of the books from the movie
Shhhh, you not allowed to post something intelligent here. JSG thinks Federation = fascism, and fascism = baddies. Nuance is not permitted
@@paulsoldner9500 Remember: You're the bad guy if you're getting genocided by a collectivist civilization. You aren't supposed to fight back. You're just supposed to accept collectivist supremacy.
@@paulsoldner9500 ...Facists are bad, the Federation is meant to be facist ergo the Federation (The hyper militaristic (litearlly run by the military) genocide state that uses child soldiers (check the end of the film))) are in fact bad guys. That doesn't mean the aliens with no non insulting name are good guys, it's just means the Federation aren't the good guys in a moral sense either.
Sometimes very rarely things are actually simple, never not nuanced but simple nonetheless.
Glad I scrolled thru the replies before posting; I was going to say the same thing! His video is an absolutely brilliant deep dive into the book and movie and he isn't dry or boring doing it.
@@TheCatabolicTrexwhat does fascism mean to you?
"The conflict could have started because.."
You DID watch the movie, right?
Mormons
I think it’s heavily implied the movie is only one part of the origins of the conflict.
I like how JSG says he only read 20 pages of the book. 20 pages in is the perspective of Johnny on the first raid. It doesn't even get into any seriously philosophical content until like half-way into the book... Mostly when Johnny's in OCS...
So I'm going to take that to mean JSG didn't read any of the book at all and is just pulling stuff out of his butt.
This. All of this, right here.
This is the case of everyone who defends Verhoeven's "satirical" take
@@paulsoldner9500satirical of militaristic propaganda. Not the book itself.
Originally he wanted to do a ww2 movie from the teens perspective as they run off into war.
@@ANTIStraussian The director said it's satire of fascism. Many times.
The problem is that the government in the books is not fascist, and hilariously neither is the government in the film. The director is so incredibly stupid that he doesn't even know the political ideology he's pretending to satirize. That's why the film doesn't work as a satire.
But this video - and the underlying social media posturing- is ONLY about the movie. I doubt many of those even know there's a book the movie's based on.
But the book is basically irrelevant for this discussion here.
You should finish the book. Verhoeven is being a bit too simplistic in his critique of Heinlein's work
He's not critiquing Heinlein. He made a movie critiquing fascism and jingoism. Boy you can tell all the righties in this thread watched a Sargon video before coming here. Lots of identical posts about a terrible book the world doesn't care about.
@@AuspexAO THe world is shit. Who cares what it thinks? The book is great.
@@AuspexAO Saying the "world" doesn't care about what is readily recognized as one of the premier works of science fiction to come out of the 20th century is hilarious.
I don't think the film has anything to do with Heinlein though, not really. Verhoeven never read the book, didn't read any of his other stuff as far as I know and didn't care about it.
The film is Verhovens vision. It's silly and fun at times with some ok satire of the things he wanted to satirise but it's got very little to do with Heinlein.
@@Narapoia1 It's funny because Verhoeven tried to use Heinlein's work as a vehicle for his own politics without understanding Heinlein's message, and then made a cult classic for all the wrong reasons.
Starship Troopers is kind of like Barbie in that sense, in that it's enjoyed by a larger audience not BECAUSE of what the writer/director was trying to say, but in spite of it.
If the bugs didn't use faster-than-light asteroids to attack Earth and kill millions of humans, I'd say live and let live, just stay away from their planets. But they did, so there's good reason to wipe them out.
That was a false flag attack
@@supermanprime6758 I know its implied, but is that confirmed?
@@supermanprime6758 No it wasn't. There's zero evidence in the film or the book to back this up.
Hell, we see the asteroid that hits BA. The ship one of our main characters is on literally runs into it.. And it's stated in that scene that the asteroid is coming out of the Arachnid quarantine zone
@@supermanprime6758 That's conceivable, but there's no indication in the movie that it could have been. Nobody tracked the asteroid back to its source and found that it was a human operation, nobody indicated that bug plasma couldn't travel faster-than-light to get to the solar system in a reasonable amount of time, suggesting that they're known to have FTL ability. Obviously these things wouldn't be on TV, but the film didn't show anyone saying such things in private either.
@@supermanprime6758 No, it was not. We even see the asteroid that hits BA. One of our main characters is on the ship that literally collides with it. We're told onscreen that it originated from the Arachnid quarantine zone..
Heinlein's book was only very loosely followed for the film. In fact, it was a mistaken 'take' on the book. Mark Verhoeven didn't even read the book, he got someone else to read it and give him a brief synopsis. So, you have a second hand take on a potentially bad take of a book that Verhoeven applied his typical OTT brush to. Yet, he made a thoroughly enjoyable film out of it. While it is a very tongue in cheek take on a fascistic utopia, it isn't derived from anything that Heinlein wrote, in 'Starship Troopers' in anything but the most superficial sense.
"fascistic utopia" but the film totally miss on the fascistic part, beside the lashing, what is fascistic? There are no draft, the media is totally free, the military is under civilian control, and the Sky marshal? step down without hassle, and a new Sky marshal is put in his place.
@@kirgan1000 Corporal punishment isn't even "fascistic". It has existed in every military force in history. Today we have Article 90 which permits the immediate execution of someone who strikes a superior officer. Article 90 is literally the same thing as the in-universe Article 9080. In the book, the commanding officer of the unit that issues the lashing was fully within his rights to execute Ted Hendrick but gave him a flogging and discharge instead.
I thought the movie was a parody of the book. I thought the director or screenwriter hated the book and wanted to sabotage its reputation or something
@@deleted01 The director didn't even read the book. He said he read a few pages and got bored.
He would've had to have read the book to make a parody of it. Instead he just used the name to tell a completely different story with a few familiar names, locations and events but otherwise no similarity at all.
@@deleted01 It kinda is, but an unintentional one because he didn't really know what he was parodying. The film was built around a poor interpretation of a second hand overview of the book. I think it was a production assistant or some co producer who actually read the book and gave Verhoeven they take on it.
There’s only 2 things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other peoples cultures, and the bugs.
This should be pinned, lol
@@firenze6478its an old joke with bugs inplace of a racial group/ethnicity/nationality.
@@treborkroy5280 it’s still funny
Rico Powers 4 - Gold Bugger
I think it failed as a satire as well though. How many people watch the movie and say "Wow, how totalitarian. I'm glad our world isn't like that!"? I know I didn't. My reaction was the complete opposite. I loved the portrayal, was very into it, and wished our world was like that (it's objectively superior). I went ahead and read the book, which I never would have gotten into with the absolute banger of a movie.
It did fail as a satire. I actually want to live in the Terran federation, whether we're talking about the book or his propaganda movie. Verhoven so utterly fails to comprehend Fascism that he thinks it is a post-racial society where people vote for their leaders and all genders are treated equally.
@@CyFed_Republic_of_Kaltovar
>Low crime
>High standard of living
>Low taxes
>Non-citiens can become extremely wealthy
>Little government intervention - to the point where you can just go set up a colony somewhere and the government can't stop you
>Government actually disincentivizes federal service
>No conscription, even in a time of war
>Incredibly transparent media apparatus
>Shocking amount of political accountability
Clearly this is Fascism!!
@@CyFed_Republic_of_Kaltovar Not only do they vote for their leaders... but when the leaders mess up, they voluntarily stand down to be replaced by someone new.
So in the movie, from SJG's perspective, democracy bad, accountability bad, freedom of choice, bad, equal treatment bad...
Got it.
@@CyFed_Republic_of_Kaltovar oh no, banks, and oligarchs are banned from politics?! the horror!. gender equality? racial equality? the madness. Citizenship is given only to those that prove responsibility to the greater public good, not personal gain? monstruous. Government incompetency and failure is met with peaceful removal from office? Terrible. these damned fascists.
I would argue that it has certain elements that we usually only associate with facistic governments. There is the emphasis on the military, including showing that child wearing armour and the soldiers handing out bullets like candy. Both of which are rather horrible things.
There is the speed trial of a murderer, who is caught and then convicted only one day later, followed by immediate execution.
There are the Uniforms inspired by german WW2 uniforms.
Even the laughing children stomping the cockroaches is obvious war propaganda.
All of this is there in a deliberate attempt to associate the Federation with bad things in general and facism in particular.
And it works, to a degree, because those flashy things are more easily remembered than the actual actions of the protagonists and side characters. The allusion to facism is less than skindeep, but a lot of people remember those allusions more readily than what actually happens in the movie.
We are meant to think that the Federation is a facist, unjust, military dictatorship. Unfortunately, the actions of the characters contradict that message, showing us that the federation is instead a prosperous liberal democracy with limited suffrage.
I am assuming that those two points, the limited suffrage part and the emphasis on the military, was what rubbed Verhoeven the wrong way primarily.
The discussions on Starship troopers are a brilliant example of how the word 'fascism' has lost nearly all meaning and now means 'something political the person using the word does not like'.
The Terran Federation is literally inspired by Nazi imagery.
I didn't know people thought it was being satirical about the form of government.
Wasn't he taking jabs at how propaganda can be used to make people gungho to go to war?
His original script was ww2 kids running off to join the German military.
@ANTIStraussian Nearly every person I've seen claim the film is clever satire mentions that it's satirising fascism. Even though there's no fascism apart from some aesthetic design. The film doesn't even show that any of the characters join the military because of the propaganda.
@@Don9872 from what I've seen from the director he wanted to make a satirical piece about propaganda used by those governments.
That's why he wanted to do a ww2 movie about teens being swept up in the gung-ho rush to war. But the studio pushed using an established IP on him.
If someone is saying it's just a satire of fascism, that isn't correct. Just the most common criticism you've seen.
@@Don9872 do you think the news reels are all factual and can be trusted? Do you think removing the right to vote is authoritarian?? Do you think the quick show trial and lu kic executions were meant to show intent of the government?
A director that never bothered to read the book is a problem for me. The book has a system of service for the vote anyone can serve and their are many non military ways to do it. Freedom of speech, religion etc are for all regardless of whether you can vote or not. Leaders take responsibility and until you leave the service you dont vote which means active military doesnt get a say. Crime is punished quickly but only on the actual guilty parties.
The Terran Empire is most certainly not the bad guys. The guy who wrote the book (Robert Heinlein) was making a commentary on the weaknesses of unlimited democracy and theorized instead about a sort of military aristocracy based upon merit.
The guy who made the movie (Paul Verhoeven) was trying to make fun of that very concept.
The hysterical part is that Paul Verhoeven absolutely failed... except he did get a few things wrong like women in the Mobile Infantry and leaving out their powered armor.
You didn't need to join the military to get the vote in the book though - it was technically a voluntary term of service. You might end up in the military but if you were better suited for something else that is what you would do. It wasn't even merit either - it was purely your willingness to put the collective good over your own regardless of your capabilities.
Do wish we could get a film version of the book with the power armour. It's so crazy how well that book has held up and he wrote it in 1959.
@@Narapoia1, it was most definitely a military meritocracy, with the merit being that you volunteer for service. That was the whole point.
@@wolfpacksix The federation may have acted as a meritocracy once people were enlisted - i.e. you rise in level of responsibility based on your inherent capabilities.
However - the decision to enlist has nothing to do with your inherent capabilities. It's a conscious decision that anyone can make regardless of their talents, education or 'merit'.
So since the decision to enlist in the Federation has nothing to do with merit, and since the service required was not universally in the military the Federation can not be a military meritocracy - by definition.
@@Narapoia1, the decision to enlist in the first place is the merit. Volunteering to serve places you in a different category, morally speaking.
@@wolfpacksix Military service wasn't required. Hell, the book states that even the dockworker's union and merchant marine were lobbying to have their service count, implying that other non-military services also counted toward a term of service.
Read the book, seen the movie, love both. The title and the name of the main character are the only similarities.
Unfortunately, there are more similarities, including some things Rasczak says - and for Verhoeven that probably was just another fascist BS propaganda.
@@hellacoorinna9995 now THAT is a good watch
Lots of the philosophy from the book is in the movie too.
@@solanumlycopersicum5594 they may have some of the same philosophical points made, but since the movie is supposed to be a satire, they come at those points from differing directions. The director never read the book. You won't get the gist of the book by watching the movie.
@@hellacoorinna9995 what is that?
JSG has become the living embodiment of the crying soyjack behind the smug soyjack mask.
Always was.
Literally, every take he has that is not on Tolkien is dogshit. The guy is a breadtuber that talks about comic books.
Never forget he ran a block bot on Twitter to block anyone associated with certain meanie right wing accounts and lost 90% of his followers
If you think the Terran Federation are the bad guys, the joke is on you.
This.
I'd go even further, if you think they are the baddies, you clearly are incapable of recognizing goodness even if it bit you in the ass.
The joke is believing there are any good guys in international politics. Everyone is in it for themselves; especially the democratic societies because they have to keep the voters content to maintain their power.
International politics isn't good vs bad. It's dubious vs bad vs worse.
@@nagillim7915 I dunno how to tell you this, but the joke is that you think the Terran Federation aren't the black and white good guys after voting to war against genocidal aliens, later allying with other aliens against the original aliens.
Its no surprise commies identify with the bugs
My only regret is that I only have one life to give for Super Earth and managed democracy.
How about a nice cup of Liber-Tea?
....1984 is not satire.
he doesn't understand that
1984 is literally Stalinist England put on screen.
One of the best things about the book was that it also showed the conflict against the Skinnies. This demonstrated that the Federation was actually a reasonable polity. The war between Skinnies and Humans was awful, but was very clearly not as awful as the two parties could have made it. The Federation was even shown making efforts to limit Skinny civilian casualties.
Which is why the movie writers left it out. Because they didn't want to rant against what the Federation was actually depicted as being -- they wanted to rant against the Federation that they made up in their own childlike, feverishly hateful brains.
Iirc the skinnies have even switched sides and allied with humans by the end of the book.
The Federation wasn't at war with the Skinnies in the book. They were performing 'raids' as a form of sabre rattling. Basically to say "We could kick your shit in if we wanted to but we didn't..." Aggressive negotations, if you will. Johnny even said civilian casualies were kept to a minimum because "it wasn't that kind of a raid".
In the Roughnecks series (which features the Skinnies) it's said that the Terran/Arachnid war is the first full-scale interstellar war.
@@wun1gee now that you bring it up, I believe I remember that. Too long since I read the book. Thank you very much for the correction -- I'll have to re-read it. It's about time to revisit it, Catch-22 and another couple of books that I like to revisit periodically.
Edit: having said that, I see no reason to retract my assertion-- relations with the Skinnies prove that the Federation is a rational polity which can be negotiated with, and I think this is why the movie writer left it out.
Edit: I wouldn't take the Roughnecks series as authoritative -- I believe it was directed by Verhoeven, meaning it would back up whatever changes he made to ST in support of his ideological spin.
@@JamesAnderson-dp1dt Honestly if Verhoeven directed Roughnecks and it's the same continuity as the movie, and even that source says "This is the first interstellar war", it makes the Federation look even LESS "militaristic" considering the very first interstellar war was one the Arachnids started. His failure at messaging is even more complete.
@@wun1gee except, if I recall correctly, it was either implied or stated outright that the war started due to the Federation encroaching in Bug Space.
What I think Verhoeven had in mind was "The nasty human Federation finds another civilization, and immediately provokes the first-ever interstellar war".
Now, a thinking person would wonder if a small group landing on some outlying planet really justifies a full-scale attempted-genocide counterstrike. I mean, any rational answer to that question pretty much establishes the Bugs as the real bad guys.
But Verhoeven probably wasn't smart enough to notice that bit.
Paul Verhoeven wanted to rile up the audience. Looking at the comments he succeeded. So he definitely produced a work of art.
Starship troopers TF isn't facism, its a representative republic, which is a democracy, meritocracy or quasi-democratic political system. With the citizens being given the right to vote based upon service rendered for people (within military service).
It can include direct military service (combat), but it can also be asteroid mining, running supplies, scientific research for said military effort, pilots, counting comets in the Kupier belt or any other government function that is difficult to find civilian contractors for. The whole military veteran government came to be after the bugs first attacked and crippled humanity.
I do agree with the movie/book, if they're facing this level of threat against giant space bugs which randomly and unprovoked attacked earth, you don't have the time nor resources for anything else, what matters is safety, education, health, upbringing and defense, you're fighting for survival against an enemy with no mercy. Should we have corrupt politicians debate on nonsense or should we let the military not waste time and seek any means for our survival.
I don't fully agree with the removal of voting rights for non government/military vets but I agree the military should be in charge and can see why they use that as incentive for the humans to fight and theres no racism, nor class division so long as you serve, which in there situation is justified. It's simple, serve the military which is your choice and get full citizenship, right to vote, paid ofc and more, if not then thats fine. You arent punished or suppressed for differing opinions, positions or choices, it's just everyone is focused on killing the immenent threat rather than debating pronouns. It's almost like imment threat of death to everyone with no means of negatiation shifts peoples priorities. Who would have guessed...
EDIT: I just liked the movie because they are based, kill bugs and the hyperliteral (straight to the point) advertisement.
Not all paths to citizenship involve the military (which you thankfully touched on, it's lost on too many people). Other pathways include being a teacher, trying out for medical experiments, or even just saying "I want to be a citizen". A line from the book goes something like, "You could be paralyzed from the neck down, blind and deaf, and the government would still be required to find a place to for you to gain citizenship. Just about the only way you can be barred from it is by being determined by a psychologist that you genuinely don't understand the oath of enlistment."
@@tachyon8317 well pointed out.
I'd rather live on the United Citizens Federation than most "good guys" space empires
Their society is genuinely better functioning and less repressive than our own. They have much freer press for one. Our own government would be hiding the tapes of it's soldiers being massacred in order to try to maintain war support.
We understand, we just don't care.
WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?
cringe
So you’d be an easily manipulated tool for fascists. Got it.
Based. There's a reason the movie is remembered as fun campy movie instead of a deep satire of fascism lmao
@@Fantallanamovie isn’t fascist, cry harder
@@AbyssWatcher745 It's because the masses are dumb enough to fall for that kind of military propaganda in real life.
Heinlein's book is a neo-Catonian critique of liberal democracy. I reread it after the 2016 election and found it to be insightful.
The movie is a silly action comedy which the author would have hated.
Who cares if the author would have hated it. The movie is its own thing and doesn't need the book to exist to be valid satire on you vie….er, oh I mean fascist views.
@@AuspexAO Meh. Being pro-personal accountability for citizenship doesn't make one fascist. "Everything the fascist promoted/liked is fascist" is a pretty big rabbit hole when you know that Fascists had no clear ideology except "state needs to be all powerful" and drew from everything that was popular at the time to gain acceptance and power, even imagery that should be opposite to its ideology (the self reliant strong man). Benito Mussolini's beginner ideology was rooted in leftism (socialism) and it can be found again in his : "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State."
@@thibaldus3 >Military leader leads disasterous invasion of enemy.
>Military leader takes accountability and steps down.
>New military leader with new ideas takes charge.
FASCISM!!!!
God these people are hilarious.
@@AuspexAO Well, there's something called you know - decency, intellectual property and artistic integrity.
@@wun1gee Military, that is "smallest army in history in relation to population it protects" (due to being actively shunned as way to get citizenship) and state operates on "low tax, private enterprise market economy" - just few of polar opposites of ideas of fascism (huge public sector, militarized society).
I would watch Sargon's video of the politics of starship troopers to actually understand the conservative view of the book and film of starship troopers
Indeed. That's a much better analysis of the film and book and would recommend it far more than this video.
The film is better than the books.
Do Sargon's minions just hate swarm JSGs videos or are you guys especially dumb?
@IncognitoActivado the book did have laser shooting genetically enhanced cyborg dogs thou! So it wins where it matters
Why bother? We already know that conservatives don’t understand satire.
Also, anyone that has read the book knows it’s a full throated support for fascism, which is ultra nationalistic and right wing. No need to watch Sargon admit his fascism.
1:50 You completely discredit yourself because Verhoeven never read the books.
Neither did Just Some Guy. When he said he stopped reading after 20 pages, I stopped listening and gave a thumb down. I've been hating on Verhoeven for years for his lazy approach to a sci-fi and political science classic.
1:59 you are not alone in never reading the book. Verhoeven is on record as having never read it, either. iirc, moreover, this movie was not originally scripted as Starship Troopers, but as "Bug Hunt". I have read it, repeatedly. there is nothing in the book resembling Italian, Spanish, or German National Socialism.
Bad take but not surprising his takes are really hit and miss.
the film fails as a satire of facism because it accidently created a nearly perfect society.
Yeah, it'd be perfect if it weren't for the fascism
@@Link4W what fascism?
@@rasspliffari Fascism is when you have a good society that doesn't hate itself, this is evil and must be opposed at any cost.
Defending your people is evil and racist, and only a nazi would do something like that, a truly virtuous lib will clap as the bugs suck out his neighbors brains, and look forward to what exotic food the bugs will bring with them.
@@rasspliffari Fascism is proven beyond any doubt by the long trenchcoats of the psychic corps. ;-)
A lot of people nowadays have no moral compass to recognize evil from good (this is one of the reasons modern storytelling often sucks even if it avoids pushing propaganda), they only know nazis/fascists are evil and they know they are easy to recognize by their looks - clothes, symbols, gestures. Those better educated in history would recall genocide - but would be surprised and clueless if you told them the nazi regime kept the genocide a secret from most of the citzizens for most of the time. Most people don't really know how the evil actually manifested publicly so they fail to recognize similarities today.
The Federation as presented is no different than modern Israel, citizenship to all who serve a 2 year term and/or civil duty of some sort (IE army corp of engineers). That's not fascism but a Democratic Republic with a Constitution and Rights and everything...
Monumental L.
We’re only talking about this because Helldivers 2 is fucking awesome
Good lord. Liking the Federation Troopers over the bugs does not make you a "fascist" any more than liking the Joker in The Dark Knight makes you pro-terrorism. People can distinguish between fiction and reality. Asserting that people who like the soldiers in this film are literal Nazis as a result is stupid. I think Sephiroth is cool, but that does not mean I want to torch a rural village.
Agreed. Even further, the actual federation in the movie aren't even really bad. If anything, their society is fairly liberal. They have complete gender equality, equal rights for all civilians with the sole exception of voting which is reserved for citizens. They weren't an overly militaristic society either, they are fighting a defensive war against a hostile alien race which struck at them first.
Well, you and the director of Starship Troopers do have at least one thing in common. You both admit that you didn't bother to read the book. While I do enjoy the movie, it actually ends up contradicting itself and making a case for the Federation, even if it's not obvious on the surface of the story. It shows us news TV shows with different experts expressing different points of view, leaders resigning after failed campaigns, religious communities being warned not to settle in dangerous areas but not forbidden, "non-citizens" creating successful businesses and being able to live in comfort to the point where they can offer extensive vacations to their children to discourage them from joining the military, a military where you can resign at any time for any reason... and that's just in the movie where it owns itself that I can think of off the top of my head. None of these things are fascism and the audience is expected to believe they are just because the movie features people in military uniforms expressing patriotic sentiments in a loud voice from a podium. That's a very disingenuous way for a person to present satire of something that they didn't bother to understand. The book is very anti all forms of fascism and communism. If you would like an honest representation of the book's intentions I recommend Sargon's old video The Politics of Starship Troopers" along with the rebuttal video he did a few years ago.
Verhoeven read the book and the critique was about his film, not the book, so that little dig doesn't work. The newsreels are propaganda pieces. Like I said in the video, the Federation is meant to be a utopia. Everything you see is told from the human perspective and shores up the utopic view. This is why Young asked "where are the homeless encampments." You're given a very particular view of the Federation, but if you listen to the dialogue, you'll catch the flaws of the society. If you think the only trappings of fascism are their uniforms, you really should study more history.
@JustSomeGuy That's not a dig, that's a true statement. *Paul Verhoeven has gone on record in interviews stating the exact same thing that you did* in your video. That's easy to look up. He got a few pages in DECIDED it was about fascism and stopped reading.
You also didn't read my comment properly-that, *or you are deliberately gaslighting my comment so you don't have to address them* on their merits. I'm also talking about the movie when I point out that "news TV shows with different experts expressing different points of view, leaders resigning (that I'll add are elected leaders) after failed campaigns, religious communities being warned not to settle in dangerous areas but not forbidden, 'non-citizens' creating successful businesses and being able to live in comfort to the point where they can offer extensive vacations to their children to discourage them from joining the military, a military where you can resign at any time for any reason" are all shown *IN THE MOVIE*. They may not be things you see as part of a society you agree with but they DO contradict the fundamental principles of fascism. However, a disingenuous leftoid like Verhoeven, sneaking them in and mixing them with low-context comments about homeless encampments and then giving it an overt propagandist paint job might be a good way to slip in some covert propaganda, much in the same way we see Marxists putting Jordan Peterson talking points in the mouth of The Red Skull. I don't agree with PV's politics but I do think he's a genius filmmaker and can see he knows what he's doing to that extent.
As far as telling a story about reaching a human ideal where we defend ourselves against murderous insect aliens that want to wipe us out, yeah, why not? *The bugs literally want to destroy all human life.* Is it fascist for the Federatin to want to protect themselves? Again, Verhoeven (not me, as you *incorrectly* state in your reply) seems to think that impassioned speeches from people on podiums in military uniforms equals fascism. He wants us to believe that a strong, non-conscripted military, that responds to attacks with greater force is exactly what a fascist would do, never mind that's also exactly what the Allied Forces did when confronted by the existential threat of mean Mr. H. That's what he remembers from his childhood but he looks at it all from a leftist lens and has decided, without doing his due diligence that he knows the score. Like so many others who think that way, he's so busy congratulating himself on how smart he is, that he doesn't see when he owns himself. That's what Starship Troopers is. It's Paul Verhoeven's biggest self-own. That's what makes it such a great movie. #TheTerrenFederationDidNothingWrong
As for telling me I need to study more history, maybe Mr. Lord of the Rings Expert should consider doing a basic search on the subjects he intends to lecture everyone else on before doing so. I'm old enough that when I was a teenager, attending talks from concentration camp survivors and WWII vets was required for me to do my high school history reports. My grandfather on my dad's side was a code breaker in London while it was being blitzed and my other grandfather was stationed on an aircraft carrier in the Pacific Ocean. My great-grandfather farmed the English countryside to provide rations because the U-boats wouldn't let supplies through without sinking the ships trying to bring them. "You really should study more history," is something the "Just Some Guy" I subscribed to years back would have shot a leftist down for pulling on him, so please spare me.
You always end your videos with "but what do I know" implying that you acknowledge that you don't know everything but when I come to you with some basic knowledge of a movie and book I love, you misrepresent my comment and show me you know about as much about Starship Troopers as a Rings of Power producer knows about Tolkin. What do I know? I know you used to be better than that.
@@JustSomeGuyVerhoeven literally did not read the book, he had someone summarize it for him. He has admitted to this.
Propaganda is not fascism, and it's existence in the film is directly contradicted by the free press showing the actual conditions of the ground conflict. Did you even understand the amputee recruiter actually works against the fascist angle by serving as a final discouragement from volunteering for dangerous military service? Did you even catch that the movie specifically shows a very non-fascist *_all volunteer military_* service? Did you miss that Johnny's father was a successful, rich, businessman while also not being a citizen? Did you manage to miss that the bugs attacked first, and we are shown that in the movie (hint, it's the scene with the ship almost taken out by an asteroid). Did you miss that the genocidal war started by the bugs directly leads to a push for military recruitment, which leads to the propaganda, which leads to people "othering" the genocidal bugs?
Did you manage to miss that Verhoeven might have intended the society to be fascist, but he utterly failed to make the society fascist in any way, shape, or form? And, no, the schoolroom lecture about the use force and violence throughout history is not fascist, it's a literal observation of force, violence, and authority throughout history, and was taken directly from the book.
Authorial intent matters, but so does authorial failure. Starship Troopers does not depict a fascist society, no matter how much you might wish it so, and there is no way you can be honest in your analysis and come to the conclusion it does unless you are using either an extremely watered down and useless definition of fascist, or your definition of fascist is just, "Rightwingers might like this."
I’ve seen articles stating he read it. If he didn’t, fine. That doesn’t change that the critique is about his film, not Heinlein’s book. That’s not an attempt to “gaslight” you. It’s just a statement of fact. Stating that Verhoeven “didn’t read the book” has nothing to do with whether his film is a satire about fascism.
When it comes to how fascism works, none of the things you mentioned are inherently prohibited in fascism. Jason Stanley talked about the different characteristics of fascist systems. I encourage you to watch the video with the Terran Federation in mind (tinyurl.com/4unjjuj3). The only missing element is the charismatic leader. Everything else is represented in some way within the Federation, with one clear distinction: the outgroup is no longer other humans but instead aliens.
Calling Verhoeven a “leftoid" isn’t going to change that what he presents in his film is a version of fascism, although it does reveal your own political bias. Verhoeven didn’t bring up homeless encampments. Isaac Young did, asking where they were. My answer was that film presents a utopic view of fascism, so it would never show the dredges of society. It would, however, heavily promote its own views, and that’s what we see in the film. The film plays out almost as if it were made by the Federation as a propaganda film. That’s probably why people in the 90s thought the film supported fascism. At first glance, it looks like it does.
And that gets to the key problem with room temperature takes like yours and others coming the right. You see things in the Federation that you value, and assume that because you view them as good, they must actually be good things. In the context of the Federation’s perspective, they are. However, from the overall perspective of a satire about fascism, this is how a fascist system works. You see people choosing to go into the military. The film actually shows you that they’re indoctrinated to see becoming a citizen and “doing their part” as the pinnacle of their society. You see the Federation protecting themselves. The film actually shows you that the Federation considers the bugs inferior and invaded their territory first. The Federation wants to kill all bugs just as much as the bugs want to kill all humans. This apparent in the dialogue, but it’s also easy to miss if you think the Federation is “based.”
I didn’t “lecture” anyone. I just assumed that people had basic knowledge about fascism. Clearly, I was mistaken. Apparently, the right doesn’t know fascism when they see it, which makes it ironic when they claim people are talking about things “they didn't bother to understand.” That’s exactly the kind of self-absorbed lukewarm take I’ve never tolerated, which is why I’m slapping down every conservative who tries to bullshit with me, present company included.
Nobody said propaganda is fascism, and it’s not clear that there is a free press in the film. About your questions: Did you even understand that people are indoctrinated to believe that the pinnacle of their society is to serve the military and become a citizen? Did you miss that fascism systems allow people to gain wealth? Did you manage to miss that first newsreel in the film shows that the Federation entered the bugs’ space first, and later scenes show that the Federation has captured bugs for testing (as shown in the dissection classroom scene)? Did you miss that the teacher in that scene explicitly states that the Federation views the bugs as inferior (she doesn’t)?
Did you manage to miss that fascism can take many forms, including the one shown in Verhoeven’s film? And yes, the schoolroom lecture about use of force and violence is a hallmark of fascism.
There’s no way you can be honest in your analysis and conclude that Starship Troopers doesn’t depict a fascist society unless you don’t know what fascism looks like or you think it can’t be fascist because as a right-winger you like what you see.
This should have been titled "When you don't know how to MAKE satire"
FACT
Just because you're dumb enough to fall for the exact kind of propaganda the movie was satirising doesn't mean it failed. It just means you are stupid.
Civilians watched the Movie. Citizens read the book.
Which is the reason the movie will be remembered long after the book is forgotten.
Real Veterans did both.
Oh no, it's a story using the medium of fiction to explore difficult, complicated, and controversial philosophical and ethical questions in a simulated manner as to not hurt any real people. And they're having fun while doing it. What ever are we gonna do.
Olympic level mental gymnastics. Bravo. Try a demonstrably obvious shoehorning of political drivel into a movie.
Im about to get on the vox and request the Imperium to send a Inquisitor ASAP my boy talking genestealer nonsense🤨
Indeed, heresy detected. Purge the unclean. 🤣
Well done. I am still surprised people are confused about Star ship Troopers. The movie and book have opposite goals. The movie is satire on fascism, just as you talked about. However, The reason the book is beloved, and is on the recommended reading list for the Marine Corps is the depiction of day to day life in boot camp, which despite the scifi setting is very grounded in reality. It is an interesting point of view. Example: Johnny goes on leave back on Earth, and feels generally uneasy the whole time. After the orderly and purpose driven lifestyle that has been drilled into him, walking around town everything feels sloppy and chaotic. The book does discuss some politics, and why the US version of Representative democracy failed, but the heart of the story is not so much about propping up a particular type of government, but more about the virtues of service to your country, and that having served then earns you the responsibility of voting, of being a capitol C Citizen. But today, I don't think we possess the nuance to appreciate the value of service and of loving one's country, while also facing and dealing with it's deep issues and problems.
I think you're all misunderstanding the original thread.
I've made a similar point about American Psycho, Wall Street and Fight Club.
People always go 'but you're not meant to identify with Tyler Durden/Yuppies/Gecko, can't you see the flaws they have??!" and i think it is a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature.
I've realised most writers simply underestimate what drives people. Being rich/handsome/badass etc is so desirable to people that any flaws simply pale in comparison.
Same with ST. It simply fails in making the humans look ridiculous because their flaws are more than made up for by their looks, bravado, courage etc.
You know a good satire? The Southpark episode about Saddam Hussein. No one leaves that episode thinking Saddam is awesome. But ppl definitely wanted to work at Wall Street because of Gordon Gecko.
Oh and BTW, it doesn't matter what the author intended.
People lost distinction made by Spock in TOS - "I didn't say I condone; I said I understand".
falling down, joker, wanted etc as well. These movies often speak of the public friction of being trapped in cubicles, 9-5 jobs, corruption at work, in politics. rats trapped in cages.
is the Matrix a satire of that? same exact message.. except hes RIGHT in that.
You proved him right by being wrong.
The whole problem with both Issacs's and JSG's critique is that the Federation isn't fascist, neither in the book or in the film. It's not even close. It's a militaristic liberal democracy with way more personal freedom than most democracies and republics today.
But nooooo, politically idiotic Verhoeven said it's fascist, so it must be fascist.
Sigh.
Except no it's not a liberal democracy not even close.
By your logic, Russia a nation that rigs every election and funtions as a dictatorship is a democracy because 'Well it still has elections"
Read the book, saw the movie, bought the tee-shirt. SERVICE GUARANTEES CITIZENSHIP (Would You Like To Know More?)
*DESIRE TO KNOW MORE INTENSIFIES*
Another didn't read.
The Starship Troopers movie is to the novel what Rings of Power is to Tolkien.
But more enjoyable
(Stares in transhuman monster Space Marine)
No, the Terrans are absolutely unironically the good guys.
Dude I got high with my friends once and we all watched Starship Troopers. I had to go to the bathroom and I looked at myself in the mirror, when I got back I was like "Why am I so ugly!?". We were laughing all the way through the movie. I love Starship Troopers.
I think you should consider finishing the Starship Troopers book. The messaging in the book is much more nuanced than the movie.
The gov in the starship troopers is not fascist - at every turn it is presented in the movie as the one upholding the rights of a citizen to the highest possible standards - a fascist one woul demand an utter submision to the state -and in the movie it is clearly shown that the gov cant do anything unless YOU volunter - there is no forced conscription and at any point if you disagree with them you are not punished but simply asked to leave if you dont like it - there is no coercion at all. - heck after a massive blunder of the first attack they hide nothing - everything is on the tv unedited - and there is no attempt at manipulating the truth or avoid the consquences - heck at every turn the main protagonist is given a fair chance at achieving on his own skill or merits or resigning from the military which can be done at any point (except in direct battle) without any repercussions because serving is optional and not mandatory xD Heck even the father points this to the son - that he can live a normal life without jooining the military and it might be actually a better option xD
Heck "Arch" has made an amazing breakdown why claims like "they are fascists" are utterly dumb.
About the criticism on beautiful people wasn't that another part of the mockery? That the actual hero of the story isn't Johnny Rico (the athletic and good-looking jock), isn't Carl Jenkins (the psychic and handsome intelligence member) or Carmen Ibanez (the beautiful and opportunistic pilot) but Sergeant Zim (the old but seasoned sergeant).
But the movie ends with an ad for new recruits in which the good-looking inepts are painted as the people that have captured the brain bug while Zim isn't even mentioned
Are we now at the point where you need to claim Clancy Brown is unattractive in order to cling to the thesis?
Me: "these guys are based"
Also me: a person that sees the political messages blatantly shown throughout the movie and the clear depiction that we are the bad guys
Still me: "BASED...Now back to Warhammer 40k"
Tbh pretty much everything is awful morally in 40k so its impossible to have anything to compare it to
@@kevinaosei*laughs in Warframe Orokin*
Humans are not the baddies, the bugs are. Suffer not the xenos to live!
The funny thing is that i actually don't care about the original intent or other people's opinions and I like what I like.
You completely misunderstood and misrepresented what your opponent was saying, and you pretty well proved him right in the the process.
@3:20
Demolition Man was the first thing popped up in my head
And don't forget
Service Guarantees Citizenship
Or, put another way, if you can't vote you don't get drafted.
Starship Troopers is a future were libertarian/egalitarian meritocracy is the drvong force and Demolition Man is the liberal/progressive prudish nanny state of keeping everyone playing nice and "fairly".
Maybe this guy should watch Demolition Man. San Angeles seems like the place for him.
Starship Troopers' novel is not fascistic. it's specifically not a fascist society, its democratic, it just doesnt allow suffrage unless you serve the state in some form and they make it hard on purpose so people have a stake in its survival. Rico's father is a wealthy businessman and not a citizen, and he gets all the rights of being a citizen except the right to vote or hold office (until he joins the service after his wife is killed during the Bug War.) The novel is more or less a treatise on this theoretical military society. You can like it or hate it but it is an interesting read. Heinlein did this a lot in his novels, and lots of them are diametrically opposed to one another in many cases. I think he just liked creating weird worlds. That said, Starship Troopers is probably his most earnest novel, though.
Errrr Guy? In what world is 1984 a satire? It doesn't have a satirical bone in it's figurative body. Orwell didn't do satire, he did allegories and warnings, 84 is the latter.
I guess it's satirical in the sense that it's highly exaggerated, but definitely not in any humorous or mocking sense.
It aimed for fascism but feels like it missed and landed in a libertarian area. The media is honest and tells it as it is. Leadership stepped down after a brutal failure of an invasion, those things don’t happen in a fascist nation trying to hide the negatives.
One thing I've observed is people seeing Starship Troopers the movie as a satire on the book; in which case it is a failed effort at satire. In order to make its case it has to turn the Mobile Infantry from proto-Space Marines (or uber-Fallschirmjäger) striking from orbit with advanced power armour in lightning raids to devastating effect into something like the conscripts from "Enemy at the Gates". IIRC the book talks about the military of the Terran Federation as "Probably the smallest in ratio to the population it protected that has ever existed", they're the opposite of a mass infantry army. Even then, everything you see of civilian life in the movie is idyllic. I don't think this is a fair reading of the movie, however, people reacting to the movie as a satire on the book, and people reacting to the movie as a satire of Fascism would explain why the conversation seems to involve people talking past each other a fair bit.
The book itself fundamentally isn't fascistic; unless you have such a broad take on fascism that it's essentially meaningless. It's basically an answer to one of the oldest critiques of democracy: That any democratic state will be instrumentalized as a means for the mass of people to loot the state to their own ends or be bribed into allowing demagogues and oligarchs to do so. The answer Heinlein proposes is the concept of Federal Service leading to citizenship and the right to vote and hold office. It's not exclusively military service, but it is always time consuming, arduous, unpleasant, and potentially life threatening. The key point is that it is open to everyone; a recruiter gives Johnny Rico the example of a blind, paraplegic, deaf-mute, saying if they wanted to sign up, they would find something for them to do for the term of Federal Service. The idea is that by making sure everyone who wants to be a part of politics has to prove they can subordinate themselves to some greater goal, they prevent the abuses of democracies with universal suffrage that Heinlein imagines (and hell, he may not have been wrong in the end) failing in the run up to and aftermath of WW3.
If you don't read any other post in this page, read this one. He gets it.
All I remember of this movie was the shower scene...
This video is the top of that bell curve meme.
Fancy seeing you here.
Hahaha
basically your response to a HOSTILE alien invasion of hiveminded beings with a caste system that have colonized and consumed many planets is: "umm.. guys don't shoot em, let's understand each other first ☝🤓"
@@hellacoorinna9995 you do realize they didn't even read the book past the first pages and the name was used to profit off a big name from sci fi when making the movie, right?
but anyways the fact is they're big bugs that devour planets' resources and of course is hostile towards your race, I'm really curious about how many hate to your own kind or to yourself you need to side with your grim reaper or wanting to understand them, what for? so you can too become a grim reaper of your kind?
Nuance is a thing, genius.
I wonder if Isaac would feel differently if The Spectre gave him a hug...
Is not like people's political values are dependent on a fictional story.
You can value a depiction of your values while acknowledging that the intention was opposite of yours. Example: the Barbie movie.
The aesthetics of past fascist governments (as in, literally the fashion choices and not much else) does not make the Terran Federation fascist. I do get why you ditched the book -its kinda dry. But the book doesnt depict or promote fascism either.
So many people refuse to read the book or have incredibly bad takes on it from skimming the Cliff Notes. Heinlein's Federation is a Stratocratic Democracy where franchise is EARNED through service to the greater community (not required to be military service, in fact, the military goes out of it's way to chase as many hopefuls away as possible in the book.) instead of being handed out just because you exist. It's quite a large point of the entire foundation of the "history" set forth in the book of Liberal Democracies collapsing under their own weight of corruption and freeloaders.
Verhoovan didn't even read the book, lmao.
People keep saying that this story, whether from the book or from the movie, depicts a fascist civilization. Could somebody please explain to me what is fascist about a civilization that has a right to vote, albeit limited, freedom of assembly, freedom of association, private property ownership, where military service is not only voluntary, but actively discouraged? Even the movie version, which is supposedly the most fascist, doesn't even pass a cursory inspection for being fascist. I would love to fling insults at peoples intelligence, but that's generally not a good way to win arguments. So what I will ask is "what about the Terran Federation is actually fascist?"
Nothing.
@@joakimandersson3884 Nonsense! The correct answer is, "Paul Verhoeven read three pages, got bored, told someone else to read it, got bored, and decided it was fascist!"
You will never get an answer to this question because the only answer is "there is none". The joke is that Verhoeven forgot to put fascism in his commentary about fascism...
Beauty is morality.
Griffith: See, I did nothing wrong.
Griffith did nothing wrong.
Oh god... that sounds horrible. But as always, it's a misunderstanding of something that a Philosopher wrote. Immanuel Kant, a man who actually went on and on and on and on in his sentences to make sure that he is not misunderstood.
It's his "Critique of the Power of Judgement" §59 - "All hypotyposis (presentation, subjecto sub adspectum), as making something sensible, is of one of two kinds: either schematic, where to a concept grasped by the understanding the corresponding intuition is given a priori; or symbolic, where to a concept which only reason can think, and to which no sensible intuition can be adequate, an intuition is attributed with which the power of judgment proceeds in a way merely analogous to that which it observes in schematization, i.e., it is merely the rule of this procedure, not of the intuition itself, and thus merely the form of the reflection, not the content, which corresponds to the concept"
Or for those who can't be bothered to read the most boring philosophical writer in history here a TLDR. Beauty is a *Symbol* of morality, not an inherent virtue. A morally good act, is inherently beautiful and worthy of respect. But that doesn't mean that good can't be ugly or that everything beautiful is good.
If you want to go deeper in to that, there is an amazing post at the philosophy stackexchange website that goes on at length about this. RUclips would ban links so just look for the terms "the moral good is inherently beautiful" without the quotation marks in you search engine of choice, you should find the post.
@@JPG.01 Eh, I rather completely divorce the idea that beauty has any value outside of something that is attractive to our senses. There is no connection between Beauty and Good or Beauty and Truth. I think people like to think they have good judgement so they will label things that they find beautiful as inherently good when, in reality, they just want to be told they are correct in pursuing their lusts.
A capitalist is going to look at a man breaking his back doing a hard day's work as "a beautiful scene". A socialist is going to see a picket line for healthcare as "a beautiful scene". A fascist is going to see a man who murders thousands in war as a "shining hero" whereas a liberal is going to see a man who feeds the poor at a soup kitchen "a beautiful hero".
It's meaningless and subjective. I hate it. Let us all enjoy our idealistic pornography in the way it should be enjoyed: in personal lust with sweat on our brow and flushed cheeks as we shamelessly enjoy our self-righteousness.
Most of the good people I've met have just been f@#$-ugly regular folks who happen to be good souls. I have a natural distrust in charismatic people. I have been called charismatic and know how easy it is to manipulate and persuade. Lies are so sweet that no one will ever request a serving of the truth. You should be careful choosing a charismatic person as a leader.
Good lord, it says a lot about this person and the shallowness of their worldview that they not only unironically wrote the sentence "If you make your characters naturally handsome, fit and well-groomed, then it becomes increasingly difficult to properly mock them" but to post that in public for millions of people to read.
The only thing keeping him from literally writing "I rely entirely on personal attacks based on people's appearance to argue, because I am too shallow and unintelligent to argue about ideas" is his complete lack of self-awareness. Massive self-report.
As for the movie's satire of the book; I'm a huge fan of the movie. It's one of my favourite of all time. I'm also a big fan of the book though I've only read it all the way through once, I do own a copy and would enjoy to re-read it at some point.
The book and the movie are nearly completely different, which makes sense because not only did Verhoeven not care for the book or Heinlein's ideas, he also didn't set out to adapt the book in the first plaace - he had a script for a satirical film about space fascists fighting alien bugs, and it was going to be its own thing. Think of how RoboCop is similar to in some ways to Six Million Dollar Man, but also entirely different. Well, studio execs do their thing and demand it have some brand recognition, and so SST was chosen because it does in fact contain human soldiers in a militaristic society fighting alien bugs. Verhoeven paid lip service to the novel, but as usual executives are really to blame.
As a result, there's not that much in the movie that directly satirizes the novel's themes and ideas, with the only real connection being the citizenship through military service, which isn't even heavily satirized in the bulk of the film, serving mostly as a motivation for the recruits that turns tragic when the war begins and their hopes and dreams for the future they could have with citizenship gets eaten by space bugs. You could really have the same story with any modern volunteer military, just replace citizenship with scholarships, insurance, job opportunities etc.
Verhoeven's Starship Troopers really is its own thing. It's spawned its own setting with multiple movies and games digging more into the satire. It is extremely popular to a degree that really overshadows the book, which probably feeds some of the resentment book-only fans have for it - but at the end of the day, it is not a replacement for the book. It's entirely something different.
They can both be good. And they are.
| *Would you like to know more?* [YES/NO]
It was a fun action movie.
The film actually does say how the humans and bugs came to fight. A Mormon extremist colony was set up on another planet. The bugs eradicated the Mormon colonists and then shot a giant meteor at earth destroying Buenos Aires.
Starship troopers is a litmus test and anyone who supports the bugs has failed that litmus test.
Did the guy who gers publicly executed have a lawyer?! How many hours was the trial? Why do you need a license to have kids.
The only way to be given the right to have a voice in the government is by acting in explicit and direct support of it under the dictates and direction of the government.
Fundamentally you're taking this fictional government at its word about what its purpose is. And I promise you that every fascist and totalitarian regime in history has similarly claimed noble and reasonable basis for their actions.
Hey a JustSomeGuy video! Haven’t seen one of those in a bit. I assume the reason Starship Troopers, a 27 year old movie, is being discussed on TwiX is because Helldivers II is setting records on Steam. For those that don’t know, Helldivers is basically Starship Troopers the game. It’s hilarious. It has the same propaganda heavy, jingoistic tone. When you nuke the bugs NPCs scream “Liberty is Forever!” Or “Take some Democracy!”
Except it's a much better commentary than the movie ever was.
@@Lobsterwithinternet Yes, because the movie was dogshit.
The problem with this is you're automatically assuming his Christianity is at odds with his opinion. It's not.
It's your poor grasp of Christianity that has led you to be confused on this point.
“The movie isn’t trying to make you laugh” 😂😂😂😂😂😂
The book and the movie are opposite views of the military.
This. There is a reason why Starship Troopers is on the reading list for West Point, and seeing how much other woke nonsense is in it, it's not because it is a fascistic establishment.
Gotta say, I enjoyed the book Starship Troopers by Heinlein and I also enjoyed the film Starship Troopers by Verhoeven - but for very different reasons in each case: Namely both offer something that's not necessarily in relation to the other. I'd say the film is excellent movie entertainment sneaking in some themes that would otherwise be banned by Hollywood paradoxically while the novel is an excellent thought experiment if you understood it...
When it came out, we called it "90210 Goes To War"
Not around here we didn't.
In fact, no one really talked about it at all until around the time rifftrax did it live.
@@_theoriginalb4handles_Genflag THERE IS A RIFFTRAX?! Oh man, only permissible way to watch the movie!
Nah it was called "Melrose Space"
@@0giwan yep, all the way back in '13. Dina Meyer (Dizzy) showed up at one of the simulcast theaters and tweeted out a picture to them and they showed it during the event.
@@treborkroy5280 thats a lot more clever.